Lathe Tool Cutter Height Gauge
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- The tool for this video is a lathe turning tool height gauge, an idea I got from another you tube'r Joe Pieczynski. Joe makes very helpful videos that are extremely well explained. Check them out here:
/ @joepie221
Joe's specific video for the height gauge is here:
• Setting lathe tools on...
Please Note: I am a beginning machinist and I do not pretend to know everything. Please always operate machinery in a safe manner and if you don't know, find a reliable source. DO NOT COPY ME. I make a lot of mistakes. I provide these videos for entertainment only.
(I only watched the first minute)
I find the best way is to put a piece of aluminium in the chuck and just face it 2 or 3 times until it cuts without leaving a nipple on the end (tool too low), or leaving a rough area in the middle as the tool pushes the last bit off rather than cutting it off (tool too high)
A fine solution. Thanks for the input. You share everyone wins.
i have an old lantern toolpost so this would be tough to do- if i have to use a threading tool
yes! that´s it! but some like to do it as complicated as possible.... ;-D
Great video with ideas for the tool-height gage. Initially the magnet seem like a good idea, but it will inevitably attract chips that will set your measurement off. It is almost impossible to clear all chips off a magnet....
Thank you for the comment. I really appreciate them. I thought about this a bit myself and ended up putting in the magnet before I set the tool height so I could face the bottom flat. This does not help with the attraction of chips, but does help with removing them. The main reason I chose to use a magnet at all was because I made the bottom out of aluminum and the top out of stainless so the tool is very top heavy. I wanted a soft material for the bottom so it would not scratch my ways, but the aluminum is very susceptible to dings. I realize that all of my choices involved tradeoffs. I was originally going to make a height gauge the worked off the cross slide, so I could use harder material. I still might. Thanks again for your great insight.
First person I have seen on UA-cam who actually usese a couple of common sense quick methods to set cutting bit height, everyone always over thinks this procedure
I wish I could take credit, but I got the original idea from a real pro: Joe Pieczynski, who by the way, has a great channel.
Good idea with the magnet- makes the gauge very stable.
Thanks. I use this tool often and it really works well. I never get a pip when I use it.
Suggestion: cut a ring groove in the handle section that will fit into a broom handle holder, spring steel version (or some type of forked structure) and then you can mount it near the cutters and not worry about it dropping or falling over.
I like the idea. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
Hi Rob,
I really like this idea... I just cannot see why anyone would not want their cutting tool at the correct height. One more item for the to do list.
Take care
Paul,,
I have used this tool at on since I made it (originally a Joe Pieczynski idea) and it has worked out great.
As a quick starter method I used a piece of 1 1/4 inch 30 mm round aluminum bar. Set tool to about center height and made one thin cut for about 2 inches 50 cm to true up bar. Set the tool slightly low and make a facing cut , should leave a small nib . raise tool slightly and make another facing cut . creep up until there is no nib. Now put tool about center and make contact with faced surface and move tool across the piece , scoring a line rotate chuck 180 deg and repeat there should be a single line if not your center is between the lines. Readjust reface and rescore, keep the line as fine as you can. Part of at about 2 inches 50mm . To center a tool, chuck in your test piece and it is easy to line up the tip of the tool with your scored line
I had heard about the first part of this approach before, but the second part, with the scoring is an interesting add on.
Rulers are what you use in grade school. In a machine shop it is a scale. Look in the Starrett catalogue.
Fair enough. If you look up the definition of scale, Webster's says it's a ruler. I get word choice preference. Most fields like to create their own "special" dialect. The choice of scale over ruler is probably one of those.
I just use a piece of acetal (nylon) in chuck , get tool somewhere near , then just take small facing cuts , too low will leave a pip in the centre, too high will push the centre pip away , then just adjust till tool cuts right too the centre . Acetal / nylon is used as it will not damage insert or HSS end .
Nice approach. I take it that you have the material on hand? Your approach seems very direct and functional. Thanks for the input.
Just take light face cut and will see if your close and adjust till you get no pnub..if its to low you get the nub and if its too high you get more a cone shaped nub..As you can see very light cuts this is the most simple ting that machinist like to make seem more difficult or they have less experience. Once you worked a lathe for a while lining the tool up is not an issue.
What if you are working between centres and need to change tool?
Excellent camera resolution and great content.
Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
all that dial gauge stuff and gauge blocks and the final check is your finger! wow
True, but the human finger is very sensitive and can discern 0.001" without too much effort.
That is the cleanest lathe I have ever seen in my life. Been knocking around machine shops since 1976.
Thanks. I bought the lathe new and clean it after every use. I am not a terribly neat person by habit, but in rationalizing getting such nice tools, I am attempting treat them as well as I can.
Dudley Toolwright Totally understandable, why not have pride of ownership in a machine, particularly if you buy it new. Look after your machine & it will look after you.
Hi
I am pejman Bahmanof.
I am iranin .
I am 50 years old .
l live in london. ( for 4 years )
I'm skilled in welding , lathe machine
operator and CNC metal .(25 years )
I will be happy to work with you .
Can you help me ?? ...... please .
I love this industry .
My number : 07494716422
Email : pejman134869@gmail.com
Thanks .
pejman Bahmanof
There's a video of a UA-cam guy, I think it was NYC CNC, that visited a machine shop in Germany. The place was so clean you had to take your shoes off before going into the work area. That video was probably 6 or 7 years ago.
I've just started watching Joe's videos. So far about 50 of them. One thing I noticed when watching your video and Joe didn't mention it, is 3 jaws usually aren't that acccurate. Have you checked the run out on your 3 jaw? Hopefully just a couple thousandths. I'm going to make one of these also. As far as a press fit or pinning, you could have heated the aluminum slightly and put the SS in the freezer for a few minutes, it would have slid on and been locked tight due to thermal expansion/contraction. thanks for sharing
I like your ideas. I might steal them for a future iteration. I have used this height gauge since I made it and it has been great, but I have some new ideas...
@@DudleyToolwright I saw this one by Oxtoolco. I like it also ua-cam.com/video/81ywSwSk_9k/v-deo.html
a really nice accessory
but to make it faster you can just use an M4 for through holes (they are pointed), tighten it in the chuck and use it as a center to zero the tools ^^
if you want to use that accessory modify it so that it rests on the X axis slide which is even, not the painted cast iron part of the frame which is not accurate
Thanks for the alternate solution. Appreciate it.
Nice tool but i prefer to measure/set hieght from the bottom, butting up to an overhang as as is its down to your finger sensitivity. Butting up to an overhang will lift the tool an is easily sean and you can feel it move even with thick fingers.
Interesting. I am relatively new to this and this approach was the one I saw first. Thanks for the alternative perspective. Every time someone recommends an alternative approach, I learn something. No matter what. Thanks again.
That finish! damn...
I really do love shiny metal.
I really liked your video excellent information I am going to make one for myself.
Thanks. I use the one I made quite often and it seems to work quite well.
Good work on the height gauge I must make one. I have just stumbled across your channel and now subscribed.
Thanks. Check out Joe Pieczynski. I got the idea from him and made some modifications. He, unlike me is a professional machinist and a good teacher. I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
thank you for uploading. Joe's video was not as clear as yours. When I saw the stacks of shims the green light went on.
That was very generous of you to say. Joe is one of my teaching favorites. He has an amazing knowledge of the art.
@@DudleyToolwright knowledge and teaching are two different skills
If you drill & tap a hole in the top of your gage you can put a top on the gage. Then advance the cross slide so the tool is under the gage. Then adjust the height of the tool so when you slide the height gage back and forth you feel a little drag as you move the gage. Or hold a .001" feeler gage on top of the tool as you raise it. When the feeler stock is tight you are virtually on center. Here is an example; www.pinterest.com/pin/363736107381190698/
Thanks for the great tip! I had not even considered it.
Great trick, but you didn't have to break the edges so aggresively after you milled the flats :D a light touch with a ruby stick or 600 grit emerypaper on a lollipop stick would do :D
Thanks for the tip!
My friend
U are making a very nice video, I suggest by reducing the sound of lathe make it better!
I would love to. my current camera does not support an external microphone, but I intend to upgrade at some point in the not too distant future. Thanks for the feedback.
Dudley Toolwright Actually I like to hear the maschine working. That‘s what you have in a maschine shop!
Nice work. Thanks for sharing!!
Thanks. I really appreciate that.
Gauge blocks are suppose to fit snuggly together. You should be able to pick up that stack and feel very little movement between the blocks if any. Your measurement is going to be off by thousandths...
Excellent tip. The old set I had was used enough that not all of the blocks would wring together. I have since remedied that situation.
may I ask why you wouldn't cut the bar to final length in the mill and mic it while its in the vise?
Mistake of someone who is fairly new to machining? There are always multiple approaches to solving every problem and I wholly admit that I do not always take the: easiest, best, most efficient, or even good choices. I always love to hear about different approaches to solving problems. Thanks for taking the time to let me know about an alternative.
i'm new to it as well. Addicted to it. Was just curious as to why. Keep up the good videos
or you could glue a piece of thin plastic to the top with an overhang, or sandwich it on with a magnet, bring the tool up to the bottom edge of the plastic and have a light overhead and stop the tool when you see the light move or warp.
That is a really interesting suggestion. Using the plastic sort of like an optical flat is a really interesting approach. If you end up trying this approach, I would love the hear how it works. Another commenter uses a piece of hardwood and says he has excellent luck with it. Thanks for the reply.
dudley toolwright its just a thought from my over analytical German brain. I've got access to gradpappys wood lathe, but not so much fabrication machinery, I've got a drill press and an ooooold metal bender. that's about it aside from bench grinders and the like.
dudley toolwright but if you got an old CD case or maybe an old cellphone screen protector and a small magnet would only take a second to try. I'd think it would get you within .0005 of the flat of your shop made gauge.
liberal guesstimating there.
How about using a piece of oil hardened Tool steel, heat treat and grind to proper height assuming you have access to heat treat and grind of course
That would make an awesome height gage, but quite an expensive one. Thanks for the great idea.
@@DudleyToolwright An aluminum gage will work fine if you're careful with it. Might help to cut a small O.D. chamfer on the end which will rest upon the lathe way, because it's easy to ding an edge when setting things in place.
Your dial indicator won't show taper since it is following the same path as the cutting tool. You need to actually measure the diameters at both ends of the cut on the workpiece.
You are absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing my error out. This was one of my early videos and I definitely blew it. You are not the first to point out this error, but your clarification is welcome, none the less.
Thank you
Thank you.
What a great idea !! ...thank you for sharing
You are so welcome! It originall came from Joe Pieczynski. Check out his channel. He is an amazing resource.
@@DudleyToolwright Ha ..sound like polish last name .i'm from Poland and wee love to "make things " please check my website stanislawcollection.com
..am gonna check Joe Pieczynski right now
Will do. Thanks for the link. Beautiful stuff.
just make a test cut on the face of an aluminium bar...
adjust the height of the tool until you get a nice and even surface...
done....
Great, if you only want to use one tool for an entire job.
That's another very valid approach.
Or you could just do the simple thing... Machine a bar whose length is the distance from the bed flat to the lathe center line. You're done.
You can feel with your finger nail if the cutting tool is above or below center to within a few thousandts of an inch. If you want be slightly fancy, knurl a bit on the bar, cut it two different diameters so it won't fall through the tool rack, and stamp the length of the bar on the bar's OD.
You are very correct. I was not taking the easiest route by any stretch, just an interesting one. You are the second person to comment on this. I probably should have clarified, that I am relatively new to machining, so I was taking an approach that was both interesting and challenging to my limited skill set, while still being functional. If I did this for a living, I would be broke pursuing a route like this. Thanks for the comments and I will endeavor to warn people in my videos if I am taking a circuitous route in the future.
There is one drawback to the simple bar... if the tool isn't hanging out past the saddle the bar can't be used. Then an extension of some sort out to the side, off the top of the bar would be helpful.
There are lots of ways to just about anything in the shop..one may be be the one to use one day and something else might be better to use tomorrow.
It is satisfying to make a tool that you use regularly and to good effect...even if you could just buy one. Whenever you make a tool, stamp the date and your name on it... and what it's for if not obvious. After 40 years you may forget ( I, of course would never do that!).
You make an excellent point and I have run into that issue at least once before. I haven't put my name on anything I have made. Strangely, it never occurred to me. Thanks for the idea.
Fixing the plain bar would be easy.. drill and tap a hole in the end of the bar, then drill a clearance hole crosswise through a piece of key stock . Attach the key stock to the end of the bar and now you can reach over the lathe saddle to get to the tool. Raise the tool till it bumps the underside of the key stock and Bob's your uncle.
i think the tail stock center is the fastest and simplest way.
Why do you mill 2 flats on the SS top ?
Wouldn't only ONE perform as well ?
Good question. I milled two flats because I was not sure about the longevity of the tool. I was concerned about nicks and gouges, so I hedged my bets and created two sides to measure from. It turns out that the tool has survived much better than expected, so one side would have probably been adequate. Thanks for the question.
Whilst I'm not a professional machinist (how's that saying go - These are PROFESSIONALS. Don't try this at home) I enjoy making things and when I do make one of these, I might just mill 2 flats on it, now that I know the backstory.
And, yes, I do this kind of stuff at home. SO THERE !
Sometimes it even works....
Thanks, Dudley
Just so you know. I am by no means an expert either. I am just an avid home enthusiast. Thanks for sharing your take on the design. I use this tool often and I have a lot of holders. If you only have a few you will be using this kind of tool even more often.
@@DudleyToolwright I only use parallels when I have to because I need that height or I need the space between them for drilling a through hole. Most of the time I use a rectangular block to support the part, it works better in the center of a round part, and automatically aligns the bottom flat if I am making both sides.
HI Dudly, are you a machinist?
The answer depends...not a professional one.
where's the magnet?
On the bottom, just under the surface.
@@DudleyToolwright thanks
You are most welcome. I got this idea from Joe Pieczynski. He has an awesome channel if you want to learn tricks of the trade.
Wow nice information 👌👌
Thanks.
I don't know but you must be a newbie...first, that heavy stick from the lathe bed has limited usage and attracts magnetism which you need to avoid at all cost in machine tools, [and attracts chips].. take a plate...can be steel or aluminum, I have both but if you go with aluminum you need to go heavier, about 3/8" or 1/2"....say around 3 inch wide and about 6 or 8 inch long, [depend on your cross slide] insert on one end inner corner a steel pin, [drill and ream] ..around 3/8" in diam. to the correct height from your cross slide....can be moved around so easily to your tools. This I've learned this about 50 years ago...
I am a newbie and always appreciate suggestions. I thank you for sharing your ideas. Nothing beats experience. On a positive note. It has been a while since I posted this video and I have used this height gage quite a bit and so far it has worked out well. The magnetism issue hasn't popped up yet, but I see your point. Thanks again.
check this out....ua-cam.com/video/4YmUiF8up4U/v-deo.html
don't start w/ a 3-jaw... dial in using a 4-jaw first. :)
I have since switched to my 4-jaw for almost everything. Thanks for the good suggestion.
why it had to be made of steel and aluminium
Thanks for the question. It didn't. I chose aluminum for the bottom so that is would not scratch my ways on the lathe, but the top needed to be a bit more abrasion resistant so I chose steel. This is not necessarily the best approach, but it is the one I chose. Thanks for the question.
I see thought whole aluminium would be fine but at least that's top quality!
Aluminum would probably be fine if you were careful with its use. I was concerned that, my being clumsy, would inevitably lead to bumping the carbide cutter I was aligning into the edge of the height adjusting tool and then it would be damaged.
In reality that is the case.
I have been accuse of having a tenuous relationship with reality ;) Thanks for the thought provoking comment.
O and another tip to put your tool on perfect center all you need to do I'd face a piece of material and when it cuts the tit off of the work piece then the tool is on center line with the lathe axis instead of going through all this BS.
You make a fair point and I was aware of this technique, but for people with only a few tool holders, that take tools in and out this tool speeds things up considerably. I made this tool early on in my video making and have used it a bunch. The idea was stolen from Joe Pieczynski who is a career machinist. I made some mods to his design, but the idea was his. Thanks for the useful feedback.
JOE SAID NO JEWELERY
Too true. I wear my rings on a necklace. If you are speaking about my watch. It has a breakaway band. If I bump it into anything it falls off. Still, very good advise. Thanks for the comments.
dude, make a fucking gage out of a 1/8" X 1" X 1ft or 2ft or whatever plate if YOU REALLY HAVE TO
I anot sure where you are heading with this suggestion, but I am intrigued.
boring tools must always be above center. as it will pull down on center. on center. it will chatter.
Interesting, thanks.
After all that everything still depends on your sense of touch.
True, but fortunately the average sense of touch is high enough resolution to exceed the requirements of tool height setting.
Things go well on a lathe right up to the instant something goes dismemberingly wrong. Get some salad tongs etc. to grab the cut off piece. Do not put your hand in there. Avoid being named "Stumpy".
Excellent recommendation and you are in great company. I have since changed my behavior, but you point is valid none the less. thanks
I quit watching after seeing an over-extended center drill visibly kick off to the left at the 8:08 mark.
Good catch. I missed that when I was editing this video. Just so you know, I never rely on a drill bit/center drill combination to make a perpendicular hole on center. I use them to remove most of the material before I ream or bore them. Thanks for noticing and the comment.
So...you hung a center drill way the hell out there for no reason, and bounced it off a facing op tit left there because your cutter height is wrong. While claiming to show how to build a tool to properly set cutter height. Then you thanked me for pointing this out because you "missed it in editing". No, you missed it in setup.
That particular center drill is a long one and it was all of the way into the drill chuck. I should have used a shorter one, clearly. What I meant by, "I missed that in editing", was that I don't always catch my mistakes when I am doing the actual operation, but often catch them in editing. I did not notice this issue in either place and was congratulating you for noticing. I went back and looked at this video and couldn't even see it the first time through, even though I knew what I was looking for. You have a good eye, quite possibly from experience. I on the other hand, am just learning and appreciate your letting me know. I made this tool quite a while ago and have used it often. It works quite well and I rarely have any center nib left over from facing any more. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
The concentricity of a hole for a magnet got your panties in a bunch?
i could see wobble with my naked eye? (11: 17) ever so slight.
It's reall amazing what the camera can capture. I can't say how many times the camera catches something I couldn't see, even though I was looking.
Nice lathe. It looks really stout. I'm getting sick of my old Atlas.
It is. I am really happy with it. It is an ACRA heavy 14 and resists vibration pretty well. It weighs about 3300#. Thanks for the comment.
I thought youtube didn't allow porn
Are you jokingly referring to chip porn? It is the idea that watching metal getting shaped is mesmerizing. If so yes, UA-cam allows it.
Yeah. That's what i'm referring to...
:)
Height ends in t not th height height height
Thanks. Typos are my talent, with poor spelling ability not far behind.
Built a.stack of joblox.... didnt ring them
..
.....
Didnt make sure half inch pin was true....
10000 lbs? Buahahahaha
Interesting point on the wringing of the joblox. I am using this height gage to set tool height to the best estimate of my finger/fingernail. Are you sure wringing is necessary (rather than good good practice)? Your other comments were a bit short for me to be sure what you exactly meant by them, but I will go back and watch the video again to see if I can see what you are recommending. Thanks for the info.
The od is IRRELEVANT......WOW... why does it take u 40 min to turn that od? Wtf? I cant cringe hard enough
I was just beginning at this point and the machining classes I took they never allowed more than a 0.025" depth of cut. I have since realized that you can take much greater doc's without any issues. It's tough trying to learn without anyone directly teaching you or to have only one persons opinion on how to perform a task, but thanks to commenters, I have learned a lot.
When setting cutter height, I always finalize moving in the up direction so the adjustment nut is under load. Make things more consistent when changing tools.
That makes good sense. Thanks for sharing that idea.
Rule method every time. using it for 45 years
Making inaccurate parts for 45 years
There are lots of wats of getting the the end and I am on the fence as to whether tool height on dead center is really necessary for a good cut (minus the leftover nib).
Moving the dial indicator along the edge with the carriage does not check for taper. You are just moving the indicator along the tool path, so you won't see taper due to runout caused by misalignment of centers. You need to measure the diameter at multiple points.
My thinking is that presumably the carriage runs along the ways which should follow a straight line. In addition, if that line coincides with the axis of the lathe, then there should be no taper. If the part is shifted off the center axis either by the tailstock being off alignment, or the part not square to the jaws, then I would expect to see a taper as measured from the carriage. I was not expecting, so was not looking for taper in, or caused by, a non-parallel tool path, so in an absolute sense I was incorrect in saying that there was no taper in the part. The best measurement of absolute taper would be, as you said to measure the part at multiple points. Although, with this particular part the greatest concern for me, lies with a parallelogram of non-perpendicular sides, because then the top surface would vary in height relative to the ways. Isthis where you were headed with your comment or did I still miss the mark? By the way, I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. Cheers.
dudley toolwright So long as the gauge follows the toolpath, you won't measure any kind of curvature, taper, or any other kind of departures from coaxial. It's just a simple fact. I suppose that you could mount the gauge on the other side and accomplish what you are trying to do, or you could have it follow the top or some other side. Each mounting position for the gauge would provide a measurement of changes on that side relative to the toolpath. Perhaps you'll have to set up a cut with the tailstock deliberately off-center to really get this point.
Thanks again for the input. I have a bar that you set up between centers. It was specifically designed to find tapers caused by out of alignment tailstocks. You place an indicator on the cross slide, magnetic or otherwise, and measure the bar at both ends. You adjust for zero taper. I realize that this would not work if the carriage path was not straight, but otherwise it was very useful in setting up my tailstock. The one I use comes from edge technology. Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to comment.
Yes, you can use a standard bar to check for alignment of the tailstock. I guess what you are saying is that, given that the tailstock is known to be in alignment, then using a DTI mounted on the carriage you can check for taper. However, if you did find taper, you would have to be very surprised, since you had established with your test bar that the tailstock is in alignment (and that the carriage path is straight). Maybe you could check for taper due to heating of the stock during machining. If the entire blank heats up as you machine from left to right, maybe you would machine more of it off at the left, and this would show up with your DTI measurements after cooling. The main point stands: you can't accurately measure taper using a DTI that follows the toolpath. Anyway, I don't want to discourage you. Keep up the good work.
Thanks. Definitely do not worry about discouraging me, it is much more important that I not share miss- information. Trying to remember what I was thinking (or not) at the time, I have had issues with heat distortion causing a taper in the cut, but what I was describing doing was completely wrong. As a general rule, to test for taper measure at several points along the part. After you cut, baring events like heat distortion, the tool post, by definition, will be equidistant from the part along the entire tool path, because you just cut it that way and thus will always show zero taper. Even if you haven't cut anything yet, there is no way that measuring along the tool path would guarantee a measurement of taper. I just realized on my way into work what you were talking about. I am really glad you kept coming back with counterpoints. I initially, for some reason was imagining something completely different. Your comments were really great contributions and I really appreciate your tenacity. Sometimes my mind keeps imaging scenarios that we aren't even talking about and I get stuck. Truly Thanks. I would edit the video if I could to correct the mistake, but you tube doesn't allow it. In any case: TO MEASURE TAPER, MEASURE THE DIAMETER AT MULTIPLE POINTS ALONG THE PART.
Keep rubbing that lathe so clean and your gonna be a few thou out of tolerance:)
That was funny and on some level true.
Great video man... I watched Joe Pieczinski original video few weeks ago but you just took this tool to a whole new level.. I don't even own a lathe and have never worked on one but I'm planning on buying a mini lathe soon and videos like yours or Joe's are helping me understand more about what's ahead...subscribed :)
That was quite a compliment and I appreciate it. However, Joe is on another level completely. I have only been doing this a couple of years and Joe is a pro. Check out Oxtools and Robrenz. These guys explain exactly what they are doing and why and have years of experience to back it up. Welcome to the fold and enjoy making chips.
When setting up a tool holder for height be aware that threads of the height adjusting screw, finger wheel, and lock nut are made with fit tolerances. The thread profile of the female thread is slightly bigger than that of the male thread.
The weight of the tool holder block pushes the finger wheel up to the top side of the male thread and actually cants it at a bit of an angle. When you tighten the lock-nut down on top of the the finger wheel the lock nut forces the finger wheel to the opposite side of the male thread and raises the tool by a few thousands and at the same time removes the cant. This raises the the tool height by a few thousands.
The tool blocks I used had 1/2-20 threads. Every full turn if the finger wheel raises or lowers the block by 0.050" so for every 0.001" adjustment would be accomplished b 7.2 degrees of rotation of the finger wheel.
That was a really great observation. I had discovered that the tool height changed after you tighten the tool holder, so I always iterate, but never thought about why it was happening. Thanks for taking the time to share a really clear explanation of what is happening and your comments are really useful info for community. Cheers.
Hey man...this is the first video of yours that I’ve seen. I really enjoyed it. I’m a hobbyist, so there’s rarely a need for me to be as meticulous with my machining operations. But it’s good to have your videos as reference, in case I ever do.
Thanks for posting!
Thanks. I am a hobbyist as well. I try to get better precision than I need so that if I ever do I can pull it off.
There is a problem with your setup...... You didn't "ring" all your gauge blocks together. You can easily see how loose they are, and hence there is space in between the blocks and your overall measurement is not what you think it is.
Excellent observation. This was a very early video and mistakes were made. Thanks for the heads up.
@@DudleyToolwright you're welcome Dudley. I didn't mean to be so picky, but I used to run an inspection lab and we worked to mil specs and aerospace tolerances. It's a common mistake to not ring the Jo blocks together when you're doing a stack up in a hurry..... But you end up paying for it in the end. You can do a test if you wish: take three Jo blocks and just lightly pile them on top of each other.... Then use a height gauge with a 1/10th test indicator. Zero out the dial. Now take those same Jo blocks, make sure they're clean, rub each one on your wrist or the inside of your arm (it causes the block to pick up body oil).... And then "ring" the blocks together by bringing them into contact with each other, and pressing and twisting them until they're firmly seated with each other..... You'll notice if it's done right because you'll feel resistance and the blocks will not easily detached from each other. Now check them with the same height gauge and 1/10th dial indicator..... In the same spot on your surface plate. You'll notice the difference.
@@johndonlan5956 HaHa! ''Jo blocks'', you’re a 🦕 Dinosaur like me!
@@lifuranph.d.9440Us dinosaurs have to stick together (like the Johansson blocks)!
First, face a small diameter. Once you find center pick a convenient flat spot on (repeatable) the bed, carriage or cross slide . Then just use your Dial caliper measuring to the top of the cutting edge of the tool. With a Sharpie Write-it-down where you can see it. You will probably be using the caliper on a project anyway. Mine measures 5.874".
One less piece-of-crap cluttering your machine!!!
P.S. Learn to "burn-in" the two parts for a perfect fit. A technique used on sleeve bearings for precise fitting.
Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I will add them to my list of tricks.
I use the rule method. I do it with a piece of 5mm rod in the chuck. That is a very sensitive test, especially using a true vertical to align the ruler against. Having got it right that way, it is then perfect for any diameter stock. No need to repeat it for larger stock.
I have not quite tried that approach. It seems quite good. With this tool you can use a fingernail to feel a height difference. Thanks for the input.
I've never had an issue with the rule method but I do walk behind the tail-stock and look. That was the first thing they showed us on the lathe at school & most of the others would skip it or half-ass it and those people always had a nub on the face of their work.
That's an interesting approach. I can't get behind my tailstock because my shop is way too small. I will have to attempt this somehow.
Fun fact. Today it is "canon" to set tools exactly on CL.
But in the REALLY old days it was to keep the tool about 5° above center with respect to the work center point for outside turning. That is really inconvenient to do in general machining so it has fallen from favor.
There were good reasons for it at that time with the tools of the day. It was 5° above center to always keep a slight positive bias of pressure on the cross slide screw , to accommodate flex in the tool and holders,to keep the work away from any climbing over the tool, to better control chip flow and to counter any tendency of the work to pull the tool in(especially with the back rake used at the time).
It's just one of those things we do now that are not necessarily better. Remember, most of our great grandfathers were not idiots.
Thank you for that. I find your revelation really interesting. I was taught in school that the tool height needs to be on center, so I never questioned the statement. I really appreciate hearing about different perspectives.
@@DudleyToolwright Yeah thats just one of the many things that have been lost. Sometimes it is not for the better.
@@DudleyToolwright This old time training video mentions the 5 degree above center for turning
ua-cam.com/video/sQRfBHUqQs4/v-deo.html
I am amazed how ruthless this audience can be. The previous comments, while being valid points, can be made much less sarcastic. Everyone had to learn at some time. Just sayin'. You have some sweet equipment with that lathe set up for a home shop! I don't know what book you got the idea of reaming after boring from. But that method leaves extra room for errors. Like how accurate is that reamer, how accurate was the reamer measured, is the tail stock in perfect alignment and then some. I am tasked with making stainless steel bushings press fitting them into aluminium, on a regular basis. For the press fits, refer to Machinery's Handbook (THE MACHINIST BIBLE). The standard is .0015 to .002 interference for diameters less than one inch (For example) . Then freeze the bushing prior to installing. This will reduce the steel just long enough for the install. then it will return to its machined size after being pressed in. This would eliminate the need to cross pin.
I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I need to try some more interference fit projects, especially using your recommended part freezing to increase the temperature difference. I love precision fits. Thanks for pointing out the error. what was going through my mind was that boring would make the hole straight and reaming would give me great finish and precise diameter, but when I read your post I realized the mistake I made. Thanks for the heads up. By the way, I don't mind constructive criticism. I am fairly new at this and I really appreciate all the shared ideas. By and large this community has very few trolls. I consider myself very lucky that anyone even wants to watch my videos at all, let alone comment on them. I am going to give your suggestions a try on an upcoming video.
I soak hardened 17-4 PH in liquid nitrogen (at work} for a minimum of 2 hours. Knowing that method is near impossible for the home shop, Dry Ice is obtainable, just double the cold soak time. I have not tried a freezer like those in the kitchen. I suppose if the parts were left in the coldest spot at least over night, would reduce the size by .0005 or so.
Not sure if you should be making instructional videos or watching them? LOL
I also made a similar tool to Joe P's height-setter, but didn't cut flats to the diameter of the post. I place 6" steel rule end-on bridging the tool-tip and the top of the post, feel which side it pivots on and adjust the tool-height for 'no-rocking'.
Interesting solution. Thanks for sharing. It is amazing how man solution there are to even the simplest problems.
Vertical is not good on the rule trick. I use that method but there is a caveat. Experience has shown that having the tool edge slightly below the center line will give a better finish and tool longevity. One bit of caution it is very easy to crack off the edge of the carbide insert this way.
The tool needs to be slightly below or the tool edge will immediately wear. All tools wear eventually. When it wears it becomes flat on the nose. When it becomes flat your finish will deteriorate almost immediately and generate heat witch will wear the tool insert even faster. Tools should be set slightly below center as a practicality. It just depends on what you can get away with. The front clearance angle cannot be above center. With a worn tool it is better to be below.
By the way learn to wring your Gauge Blocks together they are sliding all over the place and your accuracy is less. Wipe them on your wrist and wring them to hold the stack and they don't fall on the floor. If your block surfaces are marred they will not wring. Good blocks will allow you to hold the stack horizontally and they should still be stuck together. I have used good Pratt & Whitney carbide blocks and it is difficult to get the apart some times because of the quality of the surface finish.
With Cheaper block if they will not "wring", you can slightly repair scratches by lapping the blocks with Diamond Lapping Film, 0.50 Micron Sheet, 9 in x 11 in and a little kerosene with the sheet on your surface plate. This will improve the surface but ever so slightly change the block size however with shop grade blocks used for you purpose it makes no difference as these blocks are basically junk anyway.
I really appreciate the tips. Thanks.
Moving the dial indicator along the edge with the carriage does not check for taper.All you are doing is duplicating any taper along the bed
You are absolutely right. This point was also brought up by another astute viewer. Thanks for keeping me honest.
I know that center to cross slide distance is exactly 59.30 mm, so I always use the depth measurement feature of my digital caliper to measure top of cutter to the top of the cross slide and tune the height of the cutter to 59.30 mm. Always spot on.
Am i missing something?
Great tip, thanks. There are definitely many approaches to solve this problem.
This was the comment I was looking for.
you're welcome :-)
Your sanding technique is very dangerous.
The way you are holding the emery cloth will wrap you around the chuck if your hand or emery cloth is caught by the chuck
In the video you should be holding the emery cloth over the top of the rotating piece.
that way, if your hand or emery cloth is caught by the chuck it will through you away from the work not wrap you around it. Of course when running the machine in the reverse you would be correct as shown in the video.
The same technique holds true for filing. The tip of the file should over the top of the rotating work and be at an angle such that the end farthest from you is closest to the rotating chuck. If the file hits the chuck it will be flung away from the rotating chuck. If the file is held with the end closest to you is angled near the chuck you could be drawn into the work.
Thanks for the tips. well explained.
Dang, aside from myself and the person 2 comments down i do believe you have replied to every comment, something no normal youtuber would do. Nice tool btw now i got some ideas.
I always try to respond to every comment. If you guys are willing to spend your time to share your thoughts...it's the least I can do.
“Gonna eat my lunch in the shop... gadzooks! all my workbenches are loaded with crap... no room.. “ “I’ve got it! I’ll eat off my lathe!” Well.... IDK?? Don’t wanna get it dirty” “what to do?”
I am actually not a clean freak by any measure, but I really stretched to buy the lathe new, so I wanted to keep it nice for a while.
Warming the machine up to operating temperature is always advised and one thing I've noticed is when some measure overall dimensions, I rarely have see anyone measure the temperature of the material which I'm sure your aware of thermal expansion coefficiencies and this is of great importance as i was taught 20.5 degrees Celsius(if my memory doesn't fail me) and this was more than evident when accuracy was within tenths of thousands of a millmeter and certainly paramount to the required blue print documentation. This is why coolant was very helpful rather than to wait for the work to cool. Great publication by the way. Thank you
Thanks for the tips and the kudos. I was under the impression that precise tool location on center was not necessary.
@@DudleyToolwright on the contrary tool cutting height is very important not only for concentricity but tool life and surface finishes. Where I completed my trade had a jig boring room air conditioned to this specific temperature but still the work also had to be tested which I don't ever remember them doing it but on site out in the field this ambient temperature and it's variations throughout the day has to be taken into consideration. Cheers
While were dishing out advice... try using some periods when punctuating several sentences. Haha, holy mackerel!
I know that this is a pretty 'old' video, but, I have a thought on the amount of time checking, re-chucking, checking again on the length of the part. Why not set up a moderate reach dial indicator on the carriage for the initial measurement versus amount of length to remove? Then, machine length down to within a couple or four mils, THEN check the length? Might have saved a some of the "shampoo, lather, rinse, repeat"...Right?
A possible change in design (to avoid magnet / chips issues) could have been to put 302 stainless ends on BOTH ends. This "could" have avoided the 'top heavy' situation as well AND 302 is definitely SOFTER than your ways on that machine. Correct? Provided it DOES have hardened ways???
One last item, for those who do not yet have a surface plate and height gauge to 'super' accurately check the length...Option 2 (albeit very slow and tedious) remember how the length was originally arrived at? Use that same EXACT technique! Gage pin (or known diameter dowel) in chuck plus a 1/2 pin diameter gauge block. Use your dial indicator to register what your length is just as the original length was determined. Make sense???
Lastly, to 'expand' the resolution of your cutting engagement for facing to length...Use the 60° compound offset to change the advancement adjustment to 1/2 of dial graduation. Or, if you want to do the trigonometry, some other angle to get (say) 4 divisions for 1 actual division advancement. Of course, you STILL have to allow for REQUIRED tool PRESSURE and DEFLECTION in order to properly make a "cut".
Cheers Matey!
Good video!
Ken
This was one of my first videos and projects, but you provided a lot of really useful advise. Thanks for taking the time to help me and others out.
Umm what? If anyone woulf lile any factual information amd not half ass bullshit, the proper way to cut your center in is to drop it to roughly .005 below and measure it. I guess it matters a bit more more on the swiss lathes I work with than a traditional one.
Thanks for sharing your ideas. I would love for you to be more specific.
Other than threading and a parting I always keep the tool a couple of thou, or so, higher than the center for clean facing. I learned that from the old guys, whom just as I, did not work on new, accurate machinery in a pharmacy environment.
Very interesting. I have heard so many suggestions about tool height. Thanks for input. I will test out your recommendation. I also really appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts.
What you should have said is "a couple of thou LOWER than center" not higher.
Great video! What brand and size lathe is this you are working on? Its a nice looking machine.
Thanks. My lathe is an Acra 14". It is more accurate than I am capable of creating.
I always use the rule method. not like was shown at the start. I don't rub the tools up and down the rules. That looks like it can scratch the rules and also not possible with certain tools. I just rock my rule back and forth standing on the ground flats taking note of the smallest reading I see when doing so.
good for left and right hand tools, bore tools, even when turning brass sometimes I turn the tool upside down and run it in reverse.
Thanks. I will try your method in the future. I appreciate you pointing out places where I can improve along with the solutions. Cheers.
When I made my height gage. I made the bottom portion out of brass, because aluminium can get damaged easily. Then resest the magnet about .005. And on the top I made a small brass plate to swivel, making setting height easier.
Excellent suggestions. I will use them when I go for rev 2. So far it has been a really useful tool.
This was extremely useful for me cause my "Smithy Midas 1220 LTD" would only cut warm butter. Now I know why and how to fix it. THANK YOU! JD
I hoped it ended up helping. Thanks for the feedback.
Fast Orange Hand Cleaner with Grit makes an excellent lapping compound to acquire a perfect sliding fit once you reach the point of a part just starting to enter a bore. With the female part turning in a lathe chuck, apply a dab of Fast Orange W/Grit to the male and bore and slowly introduce the male into the bore while holding it with a pair of pliers as it laps its way into the bore.
Great tip! You must be talking about a pumice type rather than a walnut shell type. I really like you thinking.
@@DudleyToolwright Yes. Pumice type is the one I used. Also, if the fit is not too tight, the male piece can normally be held with emery cloth (instead of pliers) to prevent slipping in your fingers. Another plus is that Fast Orange is water soluble making it easy to remove and clean up.
Face the front off, get on the low side of the nipple, raise until nipple just disappears (provides a good visual on accuracy) or use the tail of calipers to measure down a half diameter to top of tool. This works for boring tools as well. I sometimes like to tune the cutting action by running the tool tip high or low a thou or 3. Cant do that with a fixed setting tool. Been using these technique for 30 years and have no problem working within a couple tenths on my Hardinge.
Thanks for the tip. I stole this idea from Joe Pieczynski and it has worked out pretty well for me.
Measure down half the diameter to the tool. Perfect - thanks 👍
bro you got too much time on your hands...unless ur just a hobby guy
Called it. I am just a hobby guy ;)
rough estimate on a Chinese mini lathe.
I have no idea. There some inexpensive gage block sets out there on eBay. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Mic it from one end to the other your carage could run in same path as the cutter did think about it
You are absolutely correct. You point out a fact I completely missed at the time. Thank you.
Very well done video. I made mine with a electronic edge finder mounted horizontally when the tool touches the bottom edge of the finder the tool height is set. Keep up the good work.
I really like that idea. Thanks for sharing.
With a name like Toolwright, you'd better know your stuff.
I am more of a machinist in training. I have a long way to go, but chose the name because it was catchy and establishes a goal.
Looks to me by the finish on your part whatever method you used to start with worked darn good!
Thanks. Aluminum inserts have a positive rake and a really slippery coating that does most of the work for you. Discovering them was a happy accident.
The project is incredibly mundane. You have a beautiful lathe, though.
It was one of my first videos. I was just starting out and was making tools I thought would help me going forward, simple or otherwise. I actually use this tool all of the time and it has been great. Thank you Joe Pieczynski.
With boring bars in general I run high. Most of I use will rub if not
Interesting, thanks.
On your final length?would it not be possible to do your facing and leave some material in the middle and measure the height compared to what you determine do you need to remove.
I could have. Thanks for the suggestion.
Nice job. ICould you have used a much shorter length of stainless? Would have been less top heavy then.
Very true. I initially thought the magnet would be so strong that it would easily compensate, so I went for aesthetics. In retrospect, a smaller stainless section would have been a better choice. Thanks for the input.
21:56 Here goes a tip/some shop math to help with chamfered holes:
Spot drill depth = 2 times the desired chamfer, plus the final hole dia, divided by 2.
Example - Say you wanted a 0.015" chamfer around that 0.125" hole to start your pin.
[(2 x 0.015") + 0.125"] / 2
[(0.030) + 0.125"] / 2
0.155" / 2
Spot drill depth = 0.0775"
Now if you needed to make a few 0.250" holes and wanted a consistent chamfer for aesthetics, simply get a new Z depth for your spot drill.
[(2 x 0.015") + 0.250"] / 2
[(0.030) + 0.250"] / 2
0.0075" / 2
Spot drill depth = 0.0037"
Now all you holes have the same size chamfer.
Thanks for the helpful tip. I will give your recommendation a shot. Thanks for taking the time to share.
I made one of these this evening after seeing your video. I learned a few things along the way. First, I will probably make another one out of hex stock--the darned thing rolled off onto the floor already. Second, it appears that a few thou either way just doesn't make a difference in my kind of work, and that's nice to know since I apparently made mine a few thou short. Finally, the magnet and SS were unnecessary, a simple aluminum cylinder with a flat worked just fine.
I used a height gauge on 123 blocks on the ways to get the height of a dowel pin in a collet. Accounting for the measured size of the pin, I made a cylinder a few thou over, then used a test indicator to compare the .250 pin with the cylinder sitting on a .125 ground parallel--those of us without gauge blocks must make do.
I love your creative solution and yr workarounds are fantastic. Hex stock is an inspired choice. Thanks for all of the great ideas. I will pocket them away until I make another and then I will steal them. Cheers.
cant ream at that speed mate, best done by hand or slowest possible machine speed
This is what I have heard as well. My lathes slowest speed is 70 RPM.
Nice machine, well done video also:)@@DudleyToolwright
put a drop of oil on top of your new tool, take a thin piece of clear plastic or glass and lay it on top with an overhang, start your tooling low and bring it up to the glass until it lifts and you see the oil separate from the glass, then ease the tool back down until you don't see an air bubble under the glass.
just a thought, I feel that would make the process of checking a bunch of tools quicker and easier.
Even more interesting. If get a chance I will try this. This idea seems, at a minimum, extensible. I will stow this in my bag of tricks. Thanks. This idea is going to be useful in more than one way.
dudley toolwright this was my original thought before the magnet idea. a plastic CD case would probably work perfectly, or maybe a microscope slide/ small piece of glass.
seemed like an idea, a nice thin oil with some color to it would work great, I'd imagine two nice flat surfaces and a minimal amount of oil would be a sensitive measurement.
thought of it when you did the old fingernail check, figured this way ensures measuring to the flat of the gauge plus the thickness of the oil layer, instead of guessing at the slight chamfer at the end of the flat.
also the more overhang on the glass the more precise you could measure, provided the glass is nice and flat.
Why not use the tailstock centre as a guide?
Interesting idea, thanks.
Who make the best quality mini lathe?
I am sorry, I have no idea, but if I had to guess it would be the Germans of the Swiss for watch making.
I, too, use insert tooling- but with a 4 way toolpost. Since the height of inserts does not change, I made packers for each holder, and CAed them to the holder. So now I do not have to consider height- put them in and they are correct. Four to choose from, and two clamps instead of one (on the QC) means that for jobs that need less than eight tool selections my 4 way is actually faster than a QC. I can also part rotate for an angled cut, without losing registration. Not widely understood.
BTW, magnets around machine tools are deprecated. Can cause magnetization, and certainly means forever cleaning off swarf.
For precision (not really needed for this application) mixing materials is an issue- Al thermally expands at a much greater rate.
You made a bunch of really great observations. Thanks.
I might be wrong with this assumption, but I am not worrying about differential expansion, or any expansion for that matter, because I don't think tool height is that critical, as long as you don't rub. I have a portable degausser to get rid of localized magnetization, but I suspect that not everyone does, so good point.
Sub'd.
@@DudleyToolwright Yes, as I said, differential expansion is not an issue with this particular tool, but needs to be kept in mind.
I think you made a good accessory- I was just taking the opportunity to spread a POV. Many users with a 4 way toolpost that came with the lathe will start lusting after a QC- I was one of them. However, it dawned on me that, for insert users, most of the advantages evaporate. Height is not an issue (with a machined pad that is attached to the holder). Indexing is already there for tools whilst they are in the toolpost, only lost if you change them- so do not change the ones that are critical. If you do need to, it is easy to have a registration peg on that pad, so it goes back in the same place every time. Given the price of a good QC and a selection of holders would buy a small lathe, most hobbyists would do well to avoid them. For most small turning jobs, 4ways are actually faster.
I love your solution for the included tool post. I sold mine right after I got the lathe and regretted it. I was definitely not being critical of your recommendations. I welcome them. I watch Curtis (in Australia) use one all of the time to great effect. Thanks again for the tips and ideas.