Watching how complicated the $10,000 miller was made me appreciate my $900 Primeweld machine. And I much prefer having knobs instead of having to navigate through a screen to find settings.
Hell yes. Give me a panel of labeled knobs and switches with the screen as a digital readout for them. Makes it SO much easier to train new people on it, too.
I've owned a Miller Dynasty 200 and Now own an HTP invertig 400. The HTP is by far the better machine. I was needing a bigger machine & more amps. Started saving for a Miller Dynasty 400. At the time the Miller dynsty 400 cool runner kit was 9400.00. Then during Covid Miller raised the price to 14K. So I bought a the HTP 400 complete unit for 7k. Best welder i've ever bought. Peter Zilla stepped up and ready helped me out. Also the 14K miller only goes to 300 amps on 1ph. The HTP 400 goes to 350 amps on 1ph. That's way more Bang for 1/2 the bucks. Same 3 Warranty .
Fun to watch you guys fumble around, most entertaining, and I mean that as a compliment! Any of these three featured machines in the hands of a skilled professional welder would be pleased to use them, especially spec out to their personal taste. I sold all my red and blue machines for both Fronius iWave 230i (new) and TPS 400i (used), I know the Austrian machines are expensive, and red and blue were a great tool that made me a lots of money over the years but when compared to Fronius....WOW, no regrets changing brands. Keep up the great work!
Watching this is making me totally appreciate my old school Airco 250 Heliwelder😂 It's what I know, the CK20 torch and all the consumables are what I like. It just works, I am no longer jealous of dynasty owners.😂
Update, I value the space that the old transformer machine takes up. I am looking at inverter machines and have sealed on a Primeweld 325x. I am really hoping I am happy with the discussion.
Very comprehensive review. I would have liked to have seen the Primeweld 325x as a "darkhorse" in that fight. It is quite impressive at $1399.00 and Primeweld stands toe to toe with HTP in customer service .
I learned and only ever welded with those style torches, never even seen a pedal IRL. The Fronius one seams nicer than what I had. What I got really used to was holding the arc button for up and down slope and tapping it or the secondary button (depending on the machine) for the lowe step amps. Some of my torches also had seperate amp control buttons, but they weren't really usefull on the fly mostly for not getting up. All in all it's really interesting to me how much of a focus there is on "we need a pedal" since nobody in my entire workshop ever had one and we did Carbon, Stainless, Inconel, Copper and every one of those on pressure vessels etc.
Bought the tig button a year ago....best money spent! Works great on sheet metal and you can forget about that annoying pedal that is always falling over on a level surface, let alone welding in an awkward position inside a car
Got my new HTP Invertig 251( w/water cooler ) last week and very happy with it so far. And the customer service from Heather and Peter during the ordering process was top notch.
I've had a 221 for over a decade now and it hasn't skipped a beat. Jeff was always soooooper helpful. I had the encoder fail and dudebro was able to send me just that part to swap on the board itself vs an entire screen/encoder PCB (context, EE that does microsoldering). Really considering getting a 251DV while the sale is still going.
First of all, been watching the channel for awhile and y'all have some great, fun content. Y'all need to do a video on the $500-$1,500 TIG welder category. I'm doing stuff in my garage and I'd love to see the difference in struggle on the A/C side of things on something like the Everlast you mentioned vs that Dynasty 200. The amount of footage of all three machines over this video and the last few really helped give me a feel of what they were like to use them, so shout out on that! Tay, I didn't expect you to be a fellow Linux user. Also, I heard some comments in there: you into night vision? You could probably bring some really fun stuff to the channel with that. Enjoy, fellas, thanks for bringing out some great content.
hands down best price quality and everything for $850 is the primeweld 225 ac/dc. look into this machine for excellent inverter quality in especially ac for great price
I went with the 300 Miller proset with the cooler .upgraded from my 250Dx tig runner work horse 3O years old never had to work on it .Replace my torch because lines dried rot.That unit ran every day
I consider myself a beginner TIG welder yet I have experienced similar problems with aluminum when there is bad mass contact. This is especially noticable with round tubes, because they have little contact area with the table. You might find that clamping mass wire to the part directly makes a significant difference.
GREAT insight into some of the best welders on the market! Thanks for investing the time to do this. One question after watching this video and the previous one did when you had the HTP rep explaining about the loss of gas flow with the sight glass flow rate regulator when the tank gets low; I was wondering if you have considered the same scenario being some of the issues with your Everlast machine welding? Miller seems to think they are the "Fluke meter" of the welding world. That comes across as arrogance to me.
Thanks for doing this review! I'm still deciding between an HTP and Dynasty. I feel like Miller is the Canon cameras of welders and HTP is like Panasonic (Lumix) or Sony haha! Which welder do you find yourself using the most? Dynasty, Invertig, or something else?
The fact Miller doesn’t send a FREAKING PLUG FOR A WELDER MACHINE with a multi thousand dollar machine is enough to make me dog cuss them. Sure a good system can make things easier, but now a days so much comes down to personal preferences….AND WHETHER THEY INCLUDE A DAMN PLUG. Wow.
they don't include a plug on many welders because you can plug it into several different style outlets so it comes bare and you supply the plug you need.
I'm pretty sure you can switch the button functionality with the Fronius torch, switch start from left to right. You can also use CK torches with an adapter CK sells. If you have a few CK torches they're all usable on a fronius. My friend has an iwave and uses a CK FL230 water cooled torch. Page 108 on the iWave230 manual gives you the info on disabling the up down button.
Miller has been sliding downhill for years. I own Miller products and not being biased. Prime Weld has been our go to machine. Prime Weld is far the best because the support from them. In 1981 I purchased a Century tig and it is still in service. I leaned tig on the old style Miller and it did not have all the bells and whistles, but it still is working.
Given where tech is and how expensive welders are, it's surprising we don't have small screens on the torches themselves with a small push button knob to adjust Amperage and other relevant quick settings. It could literally fit without even increasing the size of the torch, hahaha. I'm wondering if the Fronius has an app and connecting with Bluetooth allows for functionality like that with your phone.
@@unibeastbeats Makes sense they'd be the ones to do it! Haha. For when you're welding laying down or underneath something or in a weird position could be an awesome time and energy saver.
1:46 i bought a chinesium wp-26 torch and the fitment is better then that, tho i only weld as a hobby so the chinesium torch is enough for me. Also i hacked up a wp-17 torch and a old wp-26 welded the two parts together to make the 17 work with the machine for low amp stuff cause the 17 has a turnable head
We actually just got these with the water coolers in the welding program at my local community college, we use the dynasty for stick and tig and the Lincoln 360 for mig and flux, very nice machines but these days there’s a lot of cheaper welders for the same if not better
as someone who works with fronius machines atm but also have worked with other brands such as kempii and esab and migtronic. the fronius can be a little to setup and learn so to say, but the it is so much better then anything ive used. and that buttons on the handle thatyou can increase or lower your amps is something you get used to quite fast i have to say, had the same problems in the beginning as you but not anymore. and prob should say im a swede and ive never encounterd anyone over here who used miller or even lincoln. so cant speak on thoose. thoe i will say that kempii is a brand you guys should try beacuse they also produce really good machines, but as many of us welders like different things i will say is that its kinda hard for them to make a machine that makes everyone happy.
I'm surprised Fronius has a foothold in the USA. Americans really love their US-made machines. I agree that ESAB, Kemppi, EWM, and Fronius are amazing in all fields. Maybe that's just our European bias.
Thanks for the great video! I have that HTP and love it. It does come with the exact Heavy Hitter torch. Quick question, where did you get that leather bean bag arm rest or did you make it?
this whole evaluation series was really well done. Any chance down the road Lift Arc could do a TIG weld shootout in the $1000-3000 range for us great unwashed types?
I’ve got a Lincoln 225 Precision Tig and a Miller 280 Dynasty. The Lincoln does great for thinner material as it uses an air cooled torch. The Miller is the obvious choice for jobs needing a water cooled machine and smaller footprint. Enjoyed the video but a little long…
Who needs great graphics on a welding machine? I have several welding machine's, like Miller, SAF, Cebora and Jasic. The strange thing is, the Jasic is very cheap (it's the 200 AC/DC), but I use it a heck of a lot more then the others. For 3 years now I use it almost every day, I take it along in my truck and had some beating and falling to endure, and it still lives with no problems what so ever. It has seen all kinds of welding jobs from robot parts to aluminium casting and never let me down. You guys should try it sometime, it costs only about 850 dollars and is delivered with a 26 rigid torch. Off course now I do have a footpedal and a 26 and 9 flex torch with it. Love your shows by the way, keep up the good work!
Welding aluminum is all about dialing in the settings. I have a bunch of millers in our shop and a few everlast 210 ext machines. Those everlast welders weld just as good with proper settings. You just need to spend some time with scrap metal dialing it in.
I have the Fronius too, they have a smaller handle version with different button configurations and flex head. What’s awesome from then torch neck change out feature the front end is interchangeable so you can put furick components on 🤙🏼🤙🏼🤙🏼
Fronius foot pedal a big plus for aluminum and the CK adapter with a 20 torch ( water cooler) flex head DC stock torch with flex head 4 step controller so you can taper off I’ve got 2 Fronius tigs and 3 of there TPS Mig welders which are awesome machinesand for Miller I’ve got a dynasty 400, ands 280.
My Amazon Azzuno Under 300 inverter turd came with more accessories than a 10 K Miller.. That's kind of lame when you think about it.. Great comparison.. Thanks for the video
Has anyone tried the Eastwood m250i elite? I’m thinking hard about my first home welder, just not sure if it’s a good machine ….. would like some welders testimony that’s not bias.,, I’d appreciate any informed input. Thanks
I am looking for the Cheat Sheet by Ethan La(????) (I couldn't catch the last name). The sheet is being talked about at 44:07. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know you've had a poor experience with your Everlast 210ext which is a bummer but no way I'd look at purchasing a Miller now, days. They've lost their mind with their pricing. I learned how to weld on a Miller in welding school but I couldn't justify purchasing of their machines. I have a few Everlast tig machines and they all work great. Maybe reach out to them and see if they'll lone you their Typhoon 230. That machine is crispy! And it comes with their nova torch and pedal kit. The torch is a roto flex head which I think is way nicer than a flex head.
Does anyone have a fronius cu600 cooler? I'm building my own cooler for a magicwave 230i and I've already figured out how to turn on the pump and fan but I need a few pictures of the cooler harness to figure out how the flow and temperature sensor and coolant level are connected. Can anyone help me because there are no pictures or diagrams on the internet?
Haha, The computer OS analogy was perfect. It's exactly what I was thinking while watching. I'm an Apple and Linux guy. Even the Miller blue is like "Azure" = Microsoft. Like Microsoft the Miller devices are way over priced, buggy, bad support and always behind the curve of tech/features that they later copy from other companies. Also, you can get a torch with trigger for the HTP. It has the option built in. Although, I have not tried it and just use the pedal. Good point about being able to walk around the project without dragging the pedal around. I may order the trigger torch and try it out.
I know the Italians. Make good stuff for example. Lamborghinis Bugattis good tractors and obviously good welders HTP is very good machine. Good job hdp
I was an industrial pipe welder with and now I teach welding at a community college. I used only miller machines for pipe and we have red and blue. I’ll tell you one thing miller or Lincoln don’t “put” any machines in schools. We paid for 10 water cooled 280 Miller dynasties and 15 Lincoln multi process machines. we got a discount from our local Miller distributor but they still cost $16,000 apiece and that was before the price jump. We got the cordless pedals and the whole shabang but I still think the price is crazy
@@philipclark6841 The machines were funded by an industry grant that came from a group of companies that is starving for trained qualified welders. The grant required top-of-the-line machines from American companies. Also, the prime weld and similar machines would not hold up to the abuse that our typical students put on them. I have a prime weld and it’s a good machine, but at the college, the knobs will be broken off in two weeks.
2:13:00 I don't want to be rude but do your homework. By all means, you will get adapters for the ck standard ($110) for Apple 🤣 (Fronius) . And I made one at home using modifications to the DINS 50 connector (you need to drill and add a gas pipe and an O-ring, total cost $7 🤣). To control it using regular buttons, you only need to buy a plug (without any electronics) for the machine and use any buttons on the torch. If we are talking about the original Fronius handle, the functions of the triggers can be swapped L/R. There are over 30 options for replacement welding torch tips (flexible ones too). But I switched to standard, lighter and cheaper handles. 😁
They keep mentioning that Tay is Left Handed, so the Fronius is less cumbersome for him. I've been Tig welding for about 25 Years, and I'm Ambidextrous, [I'm a fabricator like you guys] and I continually weld with both hands on Most of my jobs, I have been doing 1 1/2" Aluminium Pipe 1/8" wall Coped joints, some 90 Deg. some at 45 Deg. I Hate hand controls because I hold the Torch 12 Different ways and Keep swapping hands, and radiusing around the pipe, so I use a Foot control, all the time. I pulled the grip off and the Trigger switch, and went to a Plain round handle, and always use my modified Foot control, No distractions from what you are doing. The Miller was Very expensive, considering you don't get a Foot control or Torch with it, the Fronius by the look of it was "Chalk and Cheese" in comparison. The HTP is more like the Everlast you used to use, so Feels "Normal" to you, and has a really good Manual.
I'm curious about Lift Arc being TM - A have learned recently that you can't TM a regular word that's spelled correctly which is why it's always stuff like "No Doze"
I have a dynasty. What is not in this video is a lincoln aspect. Lincoln has the auto set for aluminum which anyone worth their salt can do 90 percent of all aluminum welding with. If you have the time or the unlimited budget to pay your welders to play around with all the fiddle faddle more power to you
When putting the torch together, it has “O” rings on it-Right ? I suggest licking your finger to wet them and not just push harder. This will make the 2 parts slide together easier. You don’t have to over do it either Thanks for the input Guys back at me about the HTP…..
I think the best way to compare them, is to use the Same CK torch with all 3. CK do a fronius adapter its been out for years btw. That way your isolating the variables and focusing on the Machine not the Torch and or foot pedal.
If I am going to spend 2:34:06 with you guys, I want to get paid for my time. I want to make at least $2.50 an hour like Walker. Great comparison/shootout but I'm going to have to plan the time to watch it. I think this is the longest episode I have seen on YT. I think maybe this comparison should have been a series, not just two parts. Over two hours? Please, some of us have a life! (of course I am kidding, I have no life)
Save your money and buy a PRIME WELD 225x for under $800 and the larger 325x for under $1400. They come with CK TORCH, foot pedal and finger remote. Both AC/DC with additional stick stinger. Had 225x for 3 yrs welding aluminum every day and lots of stainless and mild steel etc. Never had a issue. Bought PrimeWeld 325 5 months ago and it welds .500" aluminum like butter. Both have unlimited settings. Pre flow, post flow, 2T, 4T, A/C frequency and balance, up slope, down slope. These machines are on par of not surpass the RED and BLUE boys I've had in the past. Do a review of PRIMEWELD VS. The big boys. You'll be surprised.
Hi guys,thanks for the video, but you are not fair- Fronius does have a lot of settings (wave forms, amplitude,pulse). Fronis has a flex head torch, and for different works it is very convenient to attach a prepared head for a specific work (ss,aluminum) without extra preparations. In addition to that, you can get a ck torch with an adapter.All machines are good, but Miller is overpriced
I love my Iwave 230 its the best... and comes with all the shit when you first buy it! I also highly recommend their Bluetooth foot petal with the hook and I put a ck20 flex head torch setup! Best there is!
God I miss Giles Co. / New River Valley Few things wrong with video. Not really a true comparison. This not that-that not this-more time on this, not that. Great info never the less Really liking the ideal of HTP. The little red is complicated, just going by video. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I want a good/great aluminum Gal all for myself and ready to buy
first off the fundamentals on your ac (and DC/ Tig in general) need some work/changes. But anyway, just Fronius AC talk, this machine is extremely finiky when it comes to basicly everything AC. Tungsten type, very small adjustments in Balance settings make a massive difference on this machine (but not like the normal good/great kind of adjustment, but like bad/great. not much in between) and for basicly each individual pieces thickness, 6061 vs 5052 etc. being the 2 major specifics. also gas flow cfh needs to be measured at torch head only. something about the gas through torch setup or through regulation in machine always puts out much lower at the torch than a tank reg. Then yes prep and cleanliness makes tig welds as always. No different here. Here is a setting you can go off of or play with. buttery wet dimes on .125" outside corner (or lap w/ +8-10amps) 6061 or 5052 (water stains also kill arc on this machine bad) stainless brushed or filed edges (one way only, no back and forth on edge) and cleaned w/ acitone and lint free towells. Tungsten type is 3/32 .8% Zircoinated (best arc for AC on this machine by far) Filler is 3/32 5356 torch--- #9 water cooled w/ #9 furick gas lens, furick #8 cup, appx 1/4" of stick out (top of cup to point) only medium or smaller back caps for AC with this machine also. 100% Argon------ 15cfh at the torch cup. 1/2 sec pre flow, 5 sec or so post AMPS--- 118-123 Balance 25-30 for nice new clean aluminum or with double side plastic peel (I start at 25 usually) frequency-- 120hrz foot pedal is a must wave + is soft rectangle wave - is either soft rectangle or sinus for a slightly more defined dome curve to bead no pulse slowwww ramp up amperage to a nice shiney wet pool before starting to add filler. dont rush the initial cleaning action. there is a million more things to AC than this but hope it gives a little info to start. ASLO it is not true that the Fronius can only use their torch. CK makes a dinse connector for all their normal CK water or air cooled torches. I use the the CK flex Loc 230 torch with my Fronius 230i
Fronius always used some pretty proprietary connections. My trusty MW2000 Fuzzy had gas through dinse connection for the torch, I ditched that for a normal Dinse and a QD for the gas, as the price markup for the GasThroughDinse on a Binzel 20 series torch is baffling.
Miller sells a badass machine but assumes the shop is professional grade and already has the other gear the welder prefers. The other lower cost machines are probably fine for tiny shop or home/farm use.
Fronius is used extensively outside of the USA in industrial settings, as popular as Miller, Miller is in its last days it appears to me, they cant expect customers to just pay double for their label, not when other machines are starting to become more capable.
Fronius is a top European brand, don't shortsell it because you don't know the brand. Fronius has always been at the forefront of AC welding, their Magicwave 2000 Fuzzy is still one of the best/buttery smooth arc on AC machines ever.
1:23:00 As for the trigger, I really like the option of adjusting the amperage while welding, but I always use 4T and I'm a bit surprised that you only use 2T if you don't have a pedal available, because the options of holding the trigger in 4T provide many more possibilities. And this trigger works in both directions (additional options) in 4T mode. As for the Fronius itself, there are two cables, a current one and a control one, the gas goes through a separate hose, and the control cables are thin, which is another thin cable. It can be connected to the control socket without any electronics and have 4 functions: start1, start 2 and up/down. In my case, I easily made a Fronius gas-current connector (it's child's play on a drill press 😁 ) and I use the torch I want :D Fronius also has a built-in cooler control function 😅, but you have to buy their ridiculously expensive equipment 🤬🤬🤬 . But the pedal is worth every cent. 😎
Guys I forgot to mention, you are not locked into like "Apple" with Fronius, I have an adaptor ($100?) that allows me to use full on CK products with my machine. I have the CK flex head water cooled setup and love it. I still love and use the Fronius torches, both air cooled and water cooled as my machine make a lovely portable setup when needed. Yes Fronius has a flex heads as well. You can rotate the head on Fronius torch, but do not use the head release button to do so. Otherwise, especially with water cooled, it can release fluid all over the place. If you want to rotate, just grab it and rotate it, it will go 360 degrees no problem if you want. BTW it welds aluminium perfectly as you know, LOL Thanks.
Kemppi tig is better than all three of those. Fronius is the best of the ones you tested but the problem with them is the proprietary torch suck compared to Kemppi the kemppi swivel head system is just better imo. Also I really dont like all these machines with the graphic touch screen displays. Give me an old kemppi mastertig mls2300 with a button for everything anyday. Fronius make the best pulse mig's though.
Buying welder for 10k and doesn't comes with Everything nor work better than a cheap Chinese made welder is ridiculous. Everything that is made by American companies is extremely overpriced, and it is not better.
@@802Garage yeah I finally pulled the trigger when they announced the sale during black Friday last year. Also the price in general is just too good to beat.
@@MrJcTTK I personally love that is has KNOBS! I don't want to press through screen after screen to adjust settings. Sure, knowing an exact number is nice, and so are picture representations. However, when I'm learning to TIG and when I want to change settings quickly after I've figured it out, I want to be able to reach over and just tweak whatever I want. Not that I don't see more pros to the advanced digital welders, but I think especially for a first machine or one that you will be switching projects on a lot, the knobs are nice. Also easy to visually check where each setting is without having to push a bunch of buttons. I'm a tech oriented person, but knobs still make a lot of sense to me. It's like going to touch screens for everything in cars. People hate it! Give me physical HVAC controls, hahaha.
Yes miller should include CK WORLDWIDE TORCHES with these very expensive welders even big companies should challenge them or they are going to have to lay off most of THIER employees in the futrue
en mode DC n'importe quelle merde fait l'affaire, c'est en mode AC que les postes font la différence. A part ça il vaut mieux VRAIMENT apprendre à souder, car si vous soudez des journées entières en mode pulsé vos yeux ne vont pas longtemps résister
@@ZacKoch Well, if you are looking for a tig welder, and you need it to portable (about 40-50 lbs of weight) and ig you are a "tig enthusiast" and you want to adjust a bunch of stuff ...... then the 251 will be a good machine. If you are ok with a 80 some bis machine and you need to do tig and some other processes .... then nothing beats the revolution machine ... ! the boards in the revolution and the invertig 251 are 80% the same ... the arc dynamic is very similar .... its more so a differences of features and adjustments.... ok the MIX AC/DC help on the 251 to weld slightly thicker aluminum and bring more heat in a part ... and the DC double pulse helps control heat input on the low end .... BUT that depends all on what you need the machine for .... is "getting the job done" and getting it down well, the Revolution machine is very hard to beat .....
Watching how complicated the $10,000 miller was made me appreciate my $900 Primeweld machine. And I much prefer having knobs instead of having to navigate through a screen to find settings.
Hell yes. Give me a panel of labeled knobs and switches with the screen as a digital readout for them. Makes it SO much easier to train new people on it, too.
I've owned a Miller Dynasty 200 and Now own an HTP invertig 400. The HTP is by far the better machine. I was needing a bigger machine & more amps. Started saving for a Miller Dynasty 400. At the time the Miller dynsty 400 cool runner kit was 9400.00. Then during Covid Miller raised the price to 14K. So I bought a the HTP 400 complete unit for 7k. Best welder i've ever bought. Peter Zilla stepped up and ready helped me out. Also the 14K miller only goes to 300 amps on 1ph. The HTP 400 goes to 350 amps on 1ph. That's way more Bang for 1/2 the bucks. Same 3 Warranty .
htp is italian Stel
Peter and the people at HTP are great when helping with questions or problems I would definitely buy another one of there machines
Fun to watch you guys fumble around, most entertaining, and I mean that as a compliment! Any of these three featured machines in the hands of a skilled professional welder would be pleased to use them, especially spec out to their personal taste. I sold all my red and blue machines for both Fronius iWave 230i (new) and TPS 400i (used), I know the Austrian machines are expensive, and red and blue were a great tool that made me a lots of money over the years but when compared to Fronius....WOW, no regrets changing brands. Keep up the great work!
Watching this is making me totally appreciate my old school Airco 250 Heliwelder😂
It's what I know, the CK20 torch and all the consumables are what I like. It just works, I am no longer jealous of dynasty owners.😂
Update, I value the space that the old transformer machine takes up. I am looking at inverter machines and have sealed on a Primeweld 325x. I am really hoping I am happy with the discussion.
Very comprehensive review. I would have liked to have seen the Primeweld 325x as a "darkhorse" in that fight. It is quite impressive at $1399.00 and Primeweld stands toe to toe with HTP in customer service .
I have the 225x and I am super happy with it. And having knobs makes adjusting settings so much easier than having to navigate through menus.
Ive been waiting for this video for like since it was announced
I appreciate all the practical nitty gritty, and the honest take. Good info with application in mind.
On the Fronius, DC four step with that torch is the bomb
I learned and only ever welded with those style torches, never even seen a pedal IRL. The Fronius one seams nicer than what I had. What I got really used to was holding the arc button for up and down slope and tapping it or the secondary button (depending on the machine) for the lowe step amps. Some of my torches also had seperate amp control buttons, but they weren't really usefull on the fly mostly for not getting up.
All in all it's really interesting to me how much of a focus there is on "we need a pedal" since nobody in my entire workshop ever had one and we did Carbon, Stainless, Inconel, Copper and every one of those on pressure vessels etc.
Bought the tig button a year ago....best money spent! Works great on sheet metal and you can forget about that annoying pedal that is always falling over on a level surface, let alone welding in an awkward position inside a car
Got my new HTP Invertig 251( w/water cooler ) last week and very happy with it so far. And the customer service from Heather and Peter during the ordering process was top notch.
Heck yeah! I was just about to send Peter this comment until I read you talked to him already.
Maybe fronius torch could be sold left hand or right handed. Or software to swap over the button functions
I've had a 221 for over a decade now and it hasn't skipped a beat. Jeff was always soooooper helpful. I had the encoder fail and dudebro was able to send me just that part to swap on the board itself vs an entire screen/encoder PCB (context, EE that does microsoldering).
Really considering getting a 251DV while the sale is still going.
Seems like we all need a support group for welding aluminum. "Hi, I'm Joe, and aluminum scares me." "Hi Joe!"
First of all, been watching the channel for awhile and y'all have some great, fun content. Y'all need to do a video on the $500-$1,500 TIG welder category. I'm doing stuff in my garage and I'd love to see the difference in struggle on the A/C side of things on something like the Everlast you mentioned vs that Dynasty 200. The amount of footage of all three machines over this video and the last few really helped give me a feel of what they were like to use them, so shout out on that!
Tay, I didn't expect you to be a fellow Linux user. Also, I heard some comments in there: you into night vision? You could probably bring some really fun stuff to the channel with that. Enjoy, fellas, thanks for bringing out some great content.
hands down best price quality and everything for $850 is the primeweld 225 ac/dc. look into this machine for excellent inverter quality in especially ac for great price
I went with the 300 Miller proset with the cooler .upgraded from my 250Dx tig runner work horse 3O years old never had to work on it .Replace my torch because lines dried rot.That unit ran every day
I consider myself a beginner TIG welder yet I have experienced similar problems with aluminum when there is bad mass contact. This is especially noticable with round tubes, because they have little contact area with the table. You might find that clamping mass wire to the part directly makes a significant difference.
GREAT insight into some of the best welders on the market! Thanks for investing the time to do this. One question after watching this video and the previous one did when you had the HTP rep explaining about the loss of gas flow with the sight glass flow rate regulator when the tank gets low; I was wondering if you have considered the same scenario being some of the issues with your Everlast machine welding?
Miller seems to think they are the "Fluke meter" of the welding world. That comes across as arrogance to me.
Thanks for doing this review! I'm still deciding between an HTP and Dynasty. I feel like Miller is the Canon cameras of welders and HTP is like Panasonic (Lumix) or Sony haha! Which welder do you find yourself using the most? Dynasty, Invertig, or something else?
The fact Miller doesn’t send a FREAKING PLUG FOR A WELDER MACHINE with a multi thousand dollar machine is enough to make me dog cuss them. Sure a good system can make things easier, but now a days so much comes down to personal preferences….AND WHETHER THEY INCLUDE A DAMN PLUG. Wow.
When I bought my welder, I had to go buy an outlet for the plug Miller included with it because it didn't match the one I had!
they don't include a plug on many welders because you can plug it into several different style outlets so it comes bare and you supply the plug you need.
you can also hardwire these machines.
@@77Avadon77 Should supply every option.
@@engjds that would be a lot of plugs and they're assuming you're going to hard wire it in most cases
I'm pretty sure you can switch the button functionality with the Fronius torch, switch start from left to right.
You can also use CK torches with an adapter CK sells.
If you have a few CK torches they're all usable on a fronius.
My friend has an iwave and uses a CK FL230 water cooled torch.
Page 108 on the iWave230 manual gives you the info on disabling the up down button.
Love the Unicorn Circuit reference, Is that even legal!
Yes Tay, the hot ones are always crazy.......lol.
Tay, you are funny af mate
Miller has been sliding downhill for years. I own Miller products and not being biased. Prime Weld has been our go to machine. Prime Weld is far the best because the support from them.
In 1981 I purchased a Century tig and it is still in service. I leaned tig on the old style Miller and it did not have all the bells and whistles, but it still is working.
Very happy with my HTP. Very powerful, reliable and forgiving.
Given where tech is and how expensive welders are, it's surprising we don't have small screens on the torches themselves with a small push button knob to adjust Amperage and other relevant quick settings. It could literally fit without even increasing the size of the torch, hahaha. I'm wondering if the Fronius has an app and connecting with Bluetooth allows for functionality like that with your phone.
Fronius has 'jobmaster' torch series with small screens on them.
@@unibeastbeats Makes sense they'd be the ones to do it! Haha. For when you're welding laying down or underneath something or in a weird position could be an awesome time and energy saver.
Hi guys. Thank you for the comparison. Would you share the cheat sheet please? Thank you
1:46 i bought a chinesium wp-26 torch and the fitment is better then that, tho i only weld as a hobby so the chinesium torch is enough for me. Also i hacked up a wp-17 torch and a old wp-26 welded the two parts together to make the 17 work with the machine for low amp stuff cause the 17 has a turnable head
We actually just got these with the water coolers in the welding program at my local community college, we use the dynasty for stick and tig and the Lincoln 360 for mig and flux, very nice machines but these days there’s a lot of cheaper welders for the same if not better
thanks for this thorough video, really interesting!
Well thank you for watching, Victor!
I love this channel, Some great info and insight.
Tay breaks it down again!! I pick up pointers and ideas with every video! But what is it with his buddies always holding a cup of something?
as someone who works with fronius machines atm but also have worked with other brands such as kempii and esab and migtronic. the fronius can be a little to setup and learn so to say, but the it is so much better then anything ive used. and that buttons on the handle thatyou can increase or lower your amps is something you get used to quite fast i have to say, had the same problems in the beginning as you but not anymore. and prob should say im a swede and ive never encounterd anyone over here who used miller or even lincoln. so cant speak on thoose.
thoe i will say that kempii is a brand you guys should try beacuse they also produce really good machines, but as many of us welders like different things i will say is that its kinda hard for them to make a machine that makes everyone happy.
I'm surprised Fronius has a foothold in the USA. Americans really love their US-made machines. I agree that ESAB, Kemppi, EWM, and Fronius are amazing in all fields. Maybe that's just our European bias.
@@unibeastbeats om not that suprised due to how good they are.
Thanks for the great video! I have that HTP and love it. It does come with the exact Heavy Hitter torch. Quick question, where did you get that leather bean bag arm rest or did you make it?
this whole evaluation series was really well done. Any chance down the road Lift Arc could do a TIG weld shootout in the $1000-3000 range for us great unwashed types?
I’ve got a Lincoln 225 Precision Tig and a Miller 280 Dynasty. The Lincoln does great for thinner material as it uses an air cooled torch. The Miller is the obvious choice for jobs needing a water cooled machine and smaller footprint. Enjoyed the video but a little long…
I have a couple HTP machines and I absolutely love them. So smooth. Great bang for buck and fantastic quality.
Who needs great graphics on a welding machine? I have several welding machine's, like Miller, SAF, Cebora and Jasic. The strange thing is, the Jasic is very cheap (it's the 200 AC/DC), but I use it a heck of a lot more then the others. For 3 years now I use it almost every day, I take it along in my truck and had some beating and falling to endure, and it still lives with no problems what so ever. It has seen all kinds of welding jobs from robot parts to aluminium casting and never let me down. You guys should try it sometime, it costs only about 850 dollars and is delivered with a 26 rigid torch. Off course now I do have a footpedal and a 26 and 9 flex torch with it. Love your shows by the way, keep up the good work!
Good insight, we always say the best welding machine is the one that works best for you! Thanks for watching and for the insight on the Jasic!
i appreciate you doing this and being honest
Welding aluminum is all about dialing in the settings. I have a bunch of millers in our shop and a few everlast 210 ext machines. Those everlast welders weld just as good with proper settings. You just need to spend some time with scrap metal dialing it in.
@35:29 because the gas lens is in your helmet?
Please show closeups on the welds. I want to see what you're talking about👍
I have the Fronius too, they have a smaller handle version with different button configurations and flex head. What’s awesome from then torch neck change out feature the front end is interchangeable so you can put furick components on 🤙🏼🤙🏼🤙🏼
I am sure you know this but furonius has other torch mounted control modules. I want to say they are around $150 and might fix the issues you had.
Fronius foot pedal a big plus for aluminum and the CK adapter with a 20 torch ( water cooler) flex head
DC stock torch with flex head 4 step controller so you can taper off
I’ve got 2 Fronius tigs and 3 of there TPS Mig welders which are awesome machinesand for Miller I’ve got a dynasty 400, ands 280.
My Amazon Azzuno Under 300 inverter turd came with more accessories than a 10 K Miller.. That's kind of lame when you think about it.. Great comparison.. Thanks for the video
I just bought an Everlast with AC-DC mix setting. Came with a water cooled 18 series torch and a switch as well as foot pedal. 🤷♂️
Miller has priced their way into marketing oblivion. I refuse to pay a premium for the name, not when there's better alternatives at a better price.
Seriously, you didn’t put the Everlast 256EXT in there? It is way less expensive and an awesome machine.
Has anyone tried the Eastwood m250i elite? I’m thinking hard about my first home welder, just not sure if it’s a good machine ….. would like some welders testimony that’s not bias.,, I’d appreciate any informed input. Thanks
Do another review with some other tig welders , arc captain, prime weld, everlast etc etc
I am looking for the Cheat Sheet by Ethan La(????) (I couldn't catch the last name). The sheet is being talked about at 44:07. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know you've had a poor experience with your Everlast 210ext which is a bummer but no way I'd look at purchasing a Miller now, days. They've lost their mind with their pricing. I learned how to weld on a Miller in welding school but I couldn't justify purchasing of their machines.
I have a few Everlast tig machines and they all work great. Maybe reach out to them and see if they'll lone you their Typhoon 230. That machine is crispy! And it comes with their nova torch and pedal kit. The torch is a roto flex head which I think is way nicer than a flex head.
@nicetrybro3829 definitely! Htp is awesome!
I was kidding.
No doubt they’re great. 🌼🌼
Does anyone have a fronius cu600 cooler? I'm building my own cooler for a magicwave 230i and I've already figured out how to turn on the pump and fan but I need a few pictures of the cooler harness to figure out how the flow and temperature sensor and coolant level are connected. Can anyone help me because there are no pictures or diagrams on the internet?
Haha, The computer OS analogy was perfect. It's exactly what I was thinking while watching. I'm an Apple and Linux guy. Even the Miller blue is like "Azure" = Microsoft. Like Microsoft the Miller devices are way over priced, buggy, bad support and always behind the curve of tech/features that they later copy from other companies. Also, you can get a torch with trigger for the HTP. It has the option built in. Although, I have not tried it and just use the pedal. Good point about being able to walk around the project without dragging the pedal around. I may order the trigger torch and try it out.
I’ve got a fronius 230i and it does a fantastic job of increasing my less then average welding skills to appear like i’m a pro😂
I know the Italians. Make good stuff for example. Lamborghinis Bugattis good tractors and obviously good welders HTP is very good machine. Good job hdp
No EWM?
If you get a chance, watch Chris Razor welding aluminum engine blocks and heads using a Dynasty 300 at 400 hertz.
I was an industrial pipe welder with and now I teach welding at a community college. I used only miller machines for pipe and we have red and blue. I’ll tell you one thing miller or Lincoln don’t “put” any machines in schools. We paid for 10 water cooled 280 Miller dynasties and 15 Lincoln multi process machines. we got a discount from our local Miller distributor but they still cost $16,000 apiece and that was before the price jump. We got the cordless pedals and the whole shabang but I still think the price is crazy
So why wouldn’t you go with an Ahp or PrimWeld? A 16k price tag seems outrageous.
@@philipclark6841because it’s not their money. It’s the tax payer’s so they don’t care about cost.
@@stevemccauley5734 if you think that a community college is funded by taxpayers you are mistaken.
@@philipclark6841 The machines were funded by an industry grant that came from a group of companies that is starving for trained qualified welders. The grant required top-of-the-line machines from American companies. Also, the prime weld and similar machines would not hold up to the abuse that our typical students put on them. I have a prime weld and it’s a good machine, but at the college, the knobs will be broken off in two weeks.
2:13:00 I don't want to be rude but do your homework. By all means, you will get adapters for the ck standard ($110) for Apple 🤣 (Fronius) . And I made one at home using modifications to the DINS 50 connector (you need to drill and add a gas pipe and an O-ring, total cost $7 🤣). To control it using regular buttons, you only need to buy a plug (without any electronics) for the machine and use any buttons on the torch. If we are talking about the original Fronius handle, the functions of the triggers can be swapped L/R. There are over 30 options for replacement welding torch tips (flexible ones too). But I switched to standard, lighter and cheaper handles. 😁
They keep mentioning that Tay is Left Handed, so the Fronius is less cumbersome for him. I've been Tig welding for about 25 Years, and I'm Ambidextrous, [I'm a fabricator like you guys] and I continually weld with both hands on Most of my jobs, I have been doing 1 1/2" Aluminium Pipe 1/8" wall Coped joints, some 90 Deg. some at 45 Deg. I Hate hand controls because I hold the Torch 12 Different ways and Keep swapping hands, and radiusing around the pipe, so I use a Foot control, all the time. I pulled the grip off and the Trigger switch, and went to a Plain round handle, and always use my modified Foot control, No distractions from what you are doing. The Miller was Very expensive, considering you don't get a Foot control or Torch with it, the Fronius by the look of it was "Chalk and Cheese" in comparison. The HTP is more like the Everlast you used to use, so Feels "Normal" to you, and has a really good Manual.
Good Video. 😀
If you take the 300 amp version of Fronius and add a few accessories you will reach the 10.000 $ pretty easily.
Seems like the majority of the video was on the $10k Miller, with little to no video on the HTP, not sure how this was a comparison.
Did you watch the whole way through? They basically say the HTP is their choice for the money and that it was best for AC as well.
shoulda thrown a primeweld in the mix.
Is there a downside to using a magnetic ground puck?
Yes, it does not work good on aluminum or and round surface like pipe
Man this welding profession looks more complex all the time.
When will you be welding those fancy rocket engines together?
I'm curious about Lift Arc being TM - A have learned recently that you can't TM a regular word that's spelled correctly which is why it's always stuff like "No Doze"
I have a dynasty. What is not in this video is a lincoln aspect.
Lincoln has the auto set for aluminum which anyone worth their salt can do 90 percent of all aluminum welding with. If you have the time or the unlimited budget to pay your welders to play around with all the fiddle faddle more power to you
When putting the torch together, it has “O” rings on it-Right ? I suggest licking your finger to wet them and not just push harder. This will make the 2 parts slide together easier. You don’t have to over do it either
Thanks for the input Guys back at me about the HTP…..
I want the cheat sheet
Yep
I think the best way to compare them, is to use the Same CK torch with all 3.
CK do a fronius adapter its been out for years btw.
That way your isolating the variables and focusing on the Machine not the Torch and or foot pedal.
8:08 SOAD reference
Absolutely should have put the Primeweld 325x up against these.
If I am going to spend 2:34:06 with you guys, I want to get paid for my time. I want to make at least $2.50 an hour like Walker. Great comparison/shootout but I'm going to have to plan the time to watch it. I think this is the longest episode I have seen on YT. I think maybe this comparison should have been a series, not just two parts. Over two hours? Please, some of us have a life! (of course I am kidding, I have no life)
Watch on 2X and put it on while you're doing something else hahaha.
Save your money and buy a PRIME WELD 225x for under $800 and the larger 325x for under $1400. They come with CK TORCH, foot pedal and finger remote. Both AC/DC with additional stick stinger. Had 225x for 3 yrs welding aluminum every day and lots of stainless and mild steel etc. Never had a issue. Bought PrimeWeld 325 5 months ago and it welds .500" aluminum like butter. Both have unlimited settings. Pre flow, post flow, 2T, 4T, A/C frequency and balance, up slope, down slope.
These machines are on par of not surpass the RED and BLUE boys I've had in the past. Do a review of PRIMEWELD VS. The big boys. You'll be surprised.
Hi guys,thanks for the video, but you are not fair- Fronius does have a lot of settings (wave forms, amplitude,pulse). Fronis has a flex head torch, and for different works it is very convenient to attach a prepared head for a specific work (ss,aluminum) without extra preparations. In addition to that, you can get a ck torch with an adapter.All machines are good, but Miller is overpriced
They mention all of that.
I love my Iwave 230 its the best... and comes with all the shit when you first buy it! I also highly recommend their Bluetooth foot petal with the hook and I put a ck20 flex head torch setup! Best there is!
Come on ...let's see you guys do some laser welding!
It was a bit long a video & could have been edited down to around 35 minutes, but great effort none the less.
God I miss Giles Co. / New River Valley
Few things wrong with video. Not really a true comparison. This not that-that not this-more time on this, not that. Great info never the less
Really liking the ideal of HTP. The little red is complicated, just going by video.
Please correct me if I’m wrong. I want a good/great aluminum Gal all for myself and ready to buy
first off the fundamentals on your ac (and DC/ Tig in general) need some work/changes. But anyway, just Fronius AC talk, this machine is extremely finiky when it comes to basicly everything AC. Tungsten type, very small adjustments in Balance settings make a massive difference on this machine (but not like the normal good/great kind of adjustment, but like bad/great. not much in between) and for basicly each individual pieces thickness, 6061 vs 5052 etc. being the 2 major specifics. also gas flow cfh needs to be measured at torch head only. something about the gas through torch setup or through regulation in machine always puts out much lower at the torch than a tank reg. Then yes prep and cleanliness makes tig welds as always. No different here. Here is a setting you can go off of or play with.
buttery wet dimes on .125" outside corner (or lap w/ +8-10amps) 6061 or 5052 (water stains also kill arc on this machine bad) stainless brushed or filed edges (one way only, no back and forth on edge) and cleaned w/ acitone and lint free towells.
Tungsten type is 3/32 .8% Zircoinated (best arc for AC on this machine by far)
Filler is 3/32 5356
torch--- #9 water cooled w/ #9 furick gas lens, furick #8 cup, appx 1/4" of stick out (top of cup to point) only medium or smaller back caps for AC with this machine also.
100% Argon------ 15cfh at the torch cup. 1/2 sec pre flow, 5 sec or so post
AMPS--- 118-123
Balance 25-30 for nice new clean aluminum or with double side plastic peel (I start at 25 usually)
frequency-- 120hrz
foot pedal is a must
wave + is soft rectangle
wave - is either soft rectangle or sinus for a slightly more defined dome curve to bead
no pulse
slowwww ramp up amperage to a nice shiney wet pool before starting to add filler. dont rush the initial cleaning action.
there is a million more things to AC than this but hope it gives a little info to start.
ASLO it is not true that the Fronius can only use their torch. CK makes a dinse connector for all their normal CK water or air cooled torches. I use the the CK flex Loc 230 torch with my Fronius 230i
Fronius always used some pretty proprietary connections.
My trusty MW2000 Fuzzy had gas through dinse connection for the torch, I ditched that for a normal Dinse and a QD for the gas, as the price markup for the GasThroughDinse on a Binzel 20 series torch is baffling.
Miller sells a badass machine but assumes the shop is professional grade and already has the other gear the welder prefers. The other lower cost machines are probably fine for tiny shop or home/farm use.
Fronius is used extensively outside of the USA in industrial settings, as popular as Miller, Miller is in its last days it appears to me, they cant expect customers to just pay double for their label, not when other machines are starting to become more capable.
Fronius is a top European brand, don't shortsell it because you don't know the brand.
Fronius has always been at the forefront of AC welding, their Magicwave 2000 Fuzzy is still one of the best/buttery smooth arc on AC machines ever.
@@NemesisRTCW The yanks think everything American is best, fortunately we know better.
1:23:00 As for the trigger, I really like the option of adjusting the amperage while welding, but I always use 4T and I'm a bit surprised that you only use 2T if you don't have a pedal available, because the options of holding the trigger in 4T provide many more possibilities. And this trigger works in both directions (additional options) in 4T mode. As for the Fronius itself, there are two cables, a current one and a control one, the gas goes through a separate hose, and the control cables are thin, which is another thin cable. It can be connected to the control socket without any electronics and have 4 functions: start1, start 2 and up/down. In my case, I easily made a Fronius gas-current connector (it's child's play on a drill press 😁 ) and I use the torch I want :D Fronius also has a built-in cooler control function 😅, but you have to buy their ridiculously expensive equipment 🤬🤬🤬 . But the pedal is worth every cent. 😎
Guys I forgot to mention, you are not locked into like "Apple" with Fronius, I have an adaptor ($100?) that allows me to use full on CK products with my machine. I have the CK flex head water cooled setup and love it. I still love and use the Fronius torches, both air cooled and water cooled as my machine make a lovely portable setup when needed. Yes Fronius has a flex heads as well. You can rotate the head on Fronius torch, but do not use the head release button to do so. Otherwise, especially with water cooled, it can release fluid all over the place. If you want to rotate, just grab it and rotate it, it will go 360 degrees no problem if you want. BTW it welds aluminium perfectly as you know, LOL Thanks.
Seems to me, if you dont like the Fronius, its because you dont know how to use it, premium manufacturers like Audi use them, that says it all.
Have you ever tried to keep an Audi running??
I know 3 garage owners that sent their daughters to Swiss finishing schools thanks to Audis.
@@papaloongie They might break, but their welding is spot on)
ARC CAPTAIN is getting great reviews. It's only around $500.
Lacks a duty cycle but yes they weld fine. Gotta remember, they make a living off the machine, not just a weekend project.
Esab makes a very nice tig welder
Kemppi tig is better than all three of those. Fronius is the best of the ones you tested but the problem with them is the proprietary torch suck compared to Kemppi the kemppi swivel head system is just better imo. Also I really dont like all these machines with the graphic touch screen displays. Give me an old kemppi mastertig mls2300 with a button for everything anyday. Fronius make the best pulse mig's though.
I miss the old school switches and dials… I hate this screen crap
Buying welder for 10k and doesn't comes with Everything nor work better than a cheap Chinese made welder is ridiculous. Everything that is made by American companies is extremely overpriced, and it is not better.
Yeah I'm just gonna stick with my primeweld tig225x for 800. Oh it also comes with a CK17 flex head and a foot pedal :D
I recently got the same welder. Very excited to dig in. PrimeWeld customer service is awesome too.
@@802Garage yeah I finally pulled the trigger when they announced the sale during black Friday last year. Also the price in general is just too good to beat.
@@MrJcTTK I personally love that is has KNOBS! I don't want to press through screen after screen to adjust settings. Sure, knowing an exact number is nice, and so are picture representations. However, when I'm learning to TIG and when I want to change settings quickly after I've figured it out, I want to be able to reach over and just tweak whatever I want. Not that I don't see more pros to the advanced digital welders, but I think especially for a first machine or one that you will be switching projects on a lot, the knobs are nice. Also easy to visually check where each setting is without having to push a bunch of buttons. I'm a tech oriented person, but knobs still make a lot of sense to me. It's like going to touch screens for everything in cars. People hate it! Give me physical HVAC controls, hahaha.
@@802Garage I agree completely
Yes miller should include CK WORLDWIDE TORCHES with these very expensive welders even big companies should challenge them or they are going to have to lay off most of THIER employees in the futrue
en mode DC n'importe quelle merde fait l'affaire, c'est en mode AC que les postes font la différence. A part ça il vaut mieux VRAIMENT apprendre à souder, car si vous soudez des journées entières en mode pulsé vos yeux ne vont pas longtemps résister
You guys need a wireless pedal and a tigcontol button from Dave Vogel.
No green machine 🤷♂
I thought for SURE the HTP was going to win the shootout. I'm a little bummed now 😢
It didnt win ?!?🤫
@ZILAwelds Well, it's the one you marry and take home to mom. 😂
I mean, it did. They said it's what they would buy.
Thoughts on the revolution vs this one?
@@ZacKoch Well, if you are looking for a tig welder, and you need it to portable (about 40-50 lbs of weight) and ig you are a "tig enthusiast" and you want to adjust a bunch of stuff ...... then the 251 will be a good machine. If you are ok with a 80 some bis machine and you need to do tig and some other processes .... then nothing beats the revolution machine ... ! the boards in the revolution and the invertig 251 are 80% the same ... the arc dynamic is very similar .... its more so a differences of features and adjustments.... ok the MIX AC/DC help on the 251 to weld slightly thicker aluminum and bring more heat in a part ... and the DC double pulse helps control heat input on the low end .... BUT that depends all on what you need the machine for .... is "getting the job done" and getting it down well, the Revolution machine is very hard to beat .....
Try kemppi if You have luck