Why YOU should play Skirmish games INSTEAD of Warhammer (and other army-level games!)
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- The age old question: army-level miniature wargames vs skirmish-level miniature wargames. The answer is to collect 'em all obviously, but if you can only choose one, then I guess it's skirmish. In this video I explain why I think skirmish games are better than army-level games.
That's right, I'm taking a swing at Warhammer 40k, Age of Sigmar, Star Wars Legion and Bolt Action here. I'm sure this won't be controversial. Let me know how fervently you disagree in the comments below.
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The quality is so high for a channel that needs more exposure
Haha thank you! Glad you enjoyed! ♥️
100% keeps getting better and better
@@yagsipcc287 best informative miniature youtuber ever!
I'm old af, so i have the terminology from historical games in mind when looking at the size of a game. "Skirmish" to me means you move individual minatures as single pieces, not as part of units. Then you have the squad level games where minis are in units representing one fighter per mini. These I also tend to think of as skirmish games, as long as the model count in each unit isn't above ca 10 minis. After that you move into platoon, company and battalion level games, where the basic playing units are consecutively larger units - but these games often either are in smaller scales with several minis affixed to a base, or have rather severe miniature to actual fighters represented scales assumed. As in 1 mini represents this or that many combatants.
This means that many of the "army level" games I play either use smaller minis than Warhammer, or don't have as many minis as you'd expect for the scale of battle they represent. This allows you to either paint hordes of smaller pieces quickly, or to build the spectacle of chonky soldiers in moderately sized units.
The Warhammer type of game that insists on using a 1:1 mini to fighter scale but also wants you to field entire companies worth of models are weird in the context of the larger miniatures hobby and has infected a lot of the adjacent games surrounding it. I know it's the biggest fish in the pond, but the miniature's wargaming world stretches much, much farther beyond GW and the companies trying to emulate it. The choice isn't between painting 200 over priced space men and calling them an "army" or running basically a RPG scenario with a dozen pieces. There's so much more variety out there if you look.
Here's a short list of games to have a gander at that straddles the ground between your definition of skirmish/army level:
SAGA
Gruntz
Lion Rampant/Dragon Rampant
DBA
Arty Conliffe's Crossfire
Oh wow! That's way bigger scaling than I'm used to haha, but I've never played less than 28 mm scaling really! I'll check out those suggestions :)
1. What do you think of Wyrd's The Other Side in which a "unit" can be a single model or a "fire team" that consists of a larger base that holds (in recesses) somewhere between 3 and 5 individual models that are removed as the unit takes casualties? Good compromise between spectacle and speed of play, or gimmick?
2. When it comes to abstraction such that a single model represents more than a single soldier, is there any advantage to playing a miniature game over a hex and counter wargame? It seems to me that there is less cognitive dissonance when using a chit with a NATO military map symbol on it than with a single soldier representing multiple ones.
@@hanng1242 Thank you for your questions!
1) Multi figure bases are not anything new in miniature wargaming. Some systems add abstract status counters to simulate casualties suffered by a base/element, others mark casualties with markers ore remove individual minis. It's certainly not a gimmick.
2) The obvious advantage is in the spectacle, having minis on a table is far more engaging from an aesthetic and immersive aspect. But there's also a lot of fine grain of unit interactions and tactics you can get through miniature units that is lost when using a hex/area map with chits. Naturally, this is also a matter of taste and temperament. Some people don't like abstracting miniatures, others are fine with it. I've played games where one 6x4 cm base represents an entire battalion (with miniatures in 6mm scale) and at that level you can surely make the argument that the dissonance is kinda big. But again, having your little battle groups lined up across a beautiful table that looks a bit like an aerial recon photo is a look I can appreciate.
And in Ancients/Mediveal/Early Modern games having beautifully painted models in 10-32mm scale in little units with flags and spears and call the colours of war is certainly worth the dissonance of not using a 1:1 model to troop scale.
I guess that's why the miniatures and board and paper wargames hobbies are adjacent but not the same - the miniature crowd has hobby, art and visuals as part of the attraction, the board game players can go into extreme detail with their mechanics and have a far wider scope. For example, I used to play huge games of WW2 and the Napoleonic Wars using board games with a group of friends where we had rented a room so we wouldn't have to fold up the game. this allowed us to play very intricate, large scale and long simulations. It was a lot of fun, but the hobby, art and spectacle of miniatures gaming has exerted a greater pull on me over the years.
@@DiscourseMinis try some games with 10 or 6mm games as soon as possible. It is a real feeling of a Great General.
@@DiscourseMinis 28mm is not a scale it's a height. The scale of a 28mm miniature is 1/64th scale (yes i know all the fools will tell you it's 1/56th, but they are fools and can't count)
I always felt 40k could only be truly represented at epic scale
Something to bring up is terrain. Infinity has made me love terrain a lot more than I used to. Depending on what type it can be used for many different games too. The terrain I have can be used for Infinity, Stargrave, Cyberpunk RPG, or any modern to scifi game.
Totally agree. But Infinity is also just a really deep game with amazing models, and it's in a purple patch right now imo. Easily my favourite tabletop game!
Skirmish games just seem more accessible all round. I also love the idea of creating a ragtag warband of unique characters with different traits/roles. I was pretty interested in checking out Kill Team but I heard the new version is a downgrade. Not a fan of GW and their slimey business practices these days either so I'm gonna check out Reign in Hell instead.
Love building ragtag crews too. Really makes Mordheim for me! Yeah I have a lot of, uh, unkind thoughts about the new Kill Team release - which is a pity, because the actual bespoke system they've designed look very interesting. Once again the business gets in the way of the game! I've heard good things about Reign in Hell!
The new version isn't a downgrade at all.
Reign in hells main selling point is because they are demons you can use literally any miniatures.
I’ve tried skirmish gaming, but I like my big units too much 😂. I wish more companies would explore 15 mm and smaller, then with multibasing you get the best of both worlds.
I've been getting more and more interested in 15 mm gaming as time has gone on!
Grab the rules of your choosing and every place they say inch cross it out and put centimeter. Shouldn't it technically be 136mm? Yes. Do you really want to do that much math writing conversions? I don't. It's super easy and works fine.
Does anyone want to paint at 15mm?
@@dane3038 I have a few.
The real fun is 285th (6mm)
@@dane3038 i mostly play 15mm, much easier to paint than 28mm imo.
If you play that mandatory Bigguy Faction (Imperial Knights, Sons of Behamat, Giants, etc) every war game is a skirmish game.
That your opponent's turn take 3 times as long in. XD
Haha yeah unfortunately when I play my army-size games I tend to gravitate towards the more villainous factions, which means I tend to have a lot of chaff units!!
I played Epic Space Marines, heavy Gear and Confrontation a lot, and what I didn't like about skirmish games was that the game would tend to snowball faster than army games.
That said, I probably had less stuff to move in epic than in your typical Warhammer 40k army...
Another reason I like skirmish games is because of the low model count it's super easy to store and transport! With 40k I need multiple army cases but I can fit my infinity miniatures in a small hand carryable box :D
Haha yeah definitely! Being able to cart my skirmish games around is really useful! I have boxes and boxes of warhammer stuff, so sorting through them can be a real pain!
So the need of less minis is a debatable point. Thankfully 3D printing can quash the debate. I decided I was finally ready to get into Rangers of Shadowdeep. 30 years of playing D&D (amongst other ttrpgs) has left me with a lot of minis to build my squad of heroes from. But then I started looking through the scenarios in main book. You need a half dozen of this monster or 4 or 5 of that monster, X number of zombies . . . etc. So it's pretty easy to make it to the point where you still need 20+ minis to play a game. Printing them off as needed is a saving grace and boon to the budget. Now I admit that I have a bit of a problem when it comes to miniatures, but I can stop any time, I swear. . honest. . .
I hear what you're saying about low model count and small play space. These are two of the (many) reasons BattleTech has been my main game. Throw down a couple of map sheets or a battle mat on the kitchen table, maybe some extra terrain on top, usually 4 to 6 units a side. Boom. Evening sorted.
I also find more of a story evolves from the skirmish scale. Especially from granular systems like Classic BattleTech. I tried BattleTech's more army level ruleset, Alpha Strike, where they've, basically, abstracted the rules to facilitate a larger scale of game more efficiently. But I also found that, for me, it lacked a bit of the narrative flavour during gameplay that I really enjoy in Classic BattleTech.
yeah I really love the narrative frameworks that skirmish games tend to do really well. Army level games just aren't able to scratch that same itch!
Set-up for skirmish games teeeends to be a bit quicker and easier, and that's great because I'm honestly just not in the mood to set up one of my armies some nights, so that's when the smaller games get cracked out! It's a lot of work to set up all the units and then put them away again. Like you said, evening sorted :D
I have got back into battletech 2 years ago. I have found the Total Warfare rules for combined arms gives a nice straddle effect between skirmish and army games.
I've started with Mordheim and shifted to 40k / AoS. In skirmish games is easier to create epic plays, like a dive attack from a roof with a skaven high on drugs.
To answer the question at the end
Skirmish: focus is on individual minis. Move pieces 1 by 1
Army: focus on units and squads
I prefer skirmish games myself. Huge Inquisimunda fan, and more recently OPR Grimdark Future Firefight. I like the focus on “your dudes”. I feel it’s more immersive, this is coming from a guy that played huge 3000+ point games in Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I play plenty of army level games - and I love 'em too - but I love customizing my different crews across different games, naming all my Escher gangers etc. You know, I've never looked into playing Inquisimunda! I should check that out!
Discourse Miniatures it’s basically an extension of Necromunda but with other faction namely the Inquisition (also some times referred to as Inquisitor 28). Basically a mix of the old Necromunda system with the Inquisitor (58mm) flavor thrown in. It’s awesome and free!
I got into skirmish due to cost. After playing several systems for past four years, even solo systems, I've come to the conclusion that army sized games really only have the pageantry going for them. Looking at 28mm armies fighting the battle of Crecy is wonderful, but the basic element is still just a unit. Whether it has 20 models or one model a unit is a unit. Some of my group is slowly starting to see the light but many more still buy into large expensive box games.
One more thing.....Song of Blades and Heroes is awesome. Best fantasy skirmish game on the market. Anyways, love your videos and happy to see you crossed 1000 subscribers. Hopefully now you can make some big bank from youtube. :-)
Thank you!! Yeah, I totally get you on the idea of an army-level game is basically a scaled up individual unit (except the individual tends to have more character!). Certainly, the scale and scope of army-level games are very cool though, love watching them be played but it can be a looot of set-up!
I think my lack of art skills saves me from model collecting. I don’t play war games but I’ve been on a search for a tactical mech game but I plan on using paper minis.
While I agree with most of what's said here... I always hear the same thing when I hear these arguments "GW bad -- all plastic shooty shoot games are the same, just play another one"... its not like interest in a new game, a community that plays it, and access to models/prints is guaranteed....
Oh yeah definitely! One of the big strengths of Games Workshop games is the ubiquity. Unfortunately we're in a bit of a chicken and egg situation there! Hopefully the hobby can continue to grow - and hey, it's never been easier to find a community online to play games with! Thanks for your comment :)
My favourite style is narrative campaign. That is skirmish games for special objectives and story elements and scaling up for the epic confrontation. Starwars is good for this but battletech is better as you can see the game evolving every level you play. Weirdly games workshop who literally built whole ranges to do this often are my least favourite as their rule systems seldom interact or need extensive tweaking to operate.
As someone trying to get into the games I find it hard to A) Transport armies that aren't skirmish sized and B) Fit everything on an outdoor picnic table without dropping something every 5 minutes due to the wind or weather. I just built a ratfolk Mordheim army a few months ago and delta hit and the person I was going to play with backed out of games. It's hard to get into these games nowadays and the extra small hurdles of transport and cost just exacerbate it. For now I'm probably going to have to remain a goblin painting in my basement.
This rambling comment is fodder for the algorithm. Hope to see this channel get a bigger audience.
haha thank you for the comment! Low key transport is a big one, though I must admit it hasn't been at the top of my mind the last couple of years. Storage has been though! The one upside is that hopefully you'll emerge from the basement with a bunch of newly painted miniatures! Still though, what I'd give to get a campaign of Mordheim going again; it's been too long!
@@DiscourseMinis I'm trying to get my partner into some games but it's all "PhD this" and "learning to code" that. If I could trick her into playing it would make the transport issue non-existent.
Storage is easy enough for me, she likes my painting so she got me some glass cabinets to display them to absolutely nobody but our cats.
@@orcd0rk hahaha! That's awesome! Sounds like she needs to get her priorities sorted ;)
What if I don't play either and just like to build and paint models? Is it still social awkward to be a resin huffing, plastic smoking mini addict while not rolling dice?
Hah! Well in that case then you get to look down on all the squabbles with contempt ;) Totally possible to be a mini addict without the dice!
Command & Conquer! Aaahh, my misspent youth calls to me.
Love the series! I'm really hoping to hear about a Red Alert 2 & Tiberian Sun remake soon!
Been playing 40k for 20 years and Infinity for 6. Going back in time, with the things I've learned, I'd never start 40k or any other army game. Infinity let me save so much time, space and money, if compared to 40k, that it wins just by these elements. Add the fact that skirmish games can have settings just as good as the army ones and that their companies are usually more friendly towards their customers, and there you have the reason why I always say "If my 40k friends stopped playing 40k, I'd sell all my Space Marines. If my Infinity friends stopped playing Infinity, I'd keep on playing with it".
This might be why my new 30k army is going to be mostly Terminators and heavy support squads. I just can't be arsed to lug boxes and boxes of models to the club.
Well explained and nice pics in the background... All i missed was the calling of the crow👍😂
I have two more reasons why a person might enjoy mass battle games:
1) Recreating a specific battle that was on a large scale. Historicals get this most often, with some people meticulously researching in order to built and paint an army meant for a _particular battle_ in a conflict. Like they're not just making a Napoleonic French army, they're making an army _specifically_ for Waterloo. But fantasy or Sci Fi wargames can have this too, depending on how robust the in-universe history is. 40K players might want the option of recreating things like the Horus Heresy, First Tyranic War, Badab War, 1st Armageddon War, the Fall of Cadia, or any of the current glut of conflicts being introduced to sell supplements. It's just not quite the same if you're playing in those conflicts, but only running skirmish level engagements that happen in the background of these huge battles.
2) Mixing bigger/stronger models with weaker ones. Skirmish level games tend to focus, by necessity, on individual infantry units, or occasionally cavalry. What becomes a lot harder is if you like tanks or giant monsters. At best, you'd be running one big unit against a dozen smaller ones (making the action economy really unbalanced). At worst, you can't use that model at all at the skirmish level. If you really like big models or powerful ones, your only real option is to play it in a mass battle context. Even low point level games may only let you take a small number of those big models. Often not the huge centerpiece models you pour all kinds of love and effort into to assemble and paint.
I agree with your argument and I wish I could play games like Infinity, Godtear, Marvel Crisis Protocol, etc. However, the biggest issue that I face is that all my big time friends do not play this stuff or do and are in another state. Another large issue for me is that the local stores I play at do not really have a scene for a lot of these Skirmish games because the all three stores I play at are dominated by GW with 40K and AoS. If there are skirmish games being played, it is either Kill Team or WarCry. The game I wanted to play the most was Infinity. However, no one in any of my stores play the game nor does the store itself carry Infinity product. The domination that exists in my wargame communities of GW titles is quite overwhelming. Everyone only really wants to play 40K. I am Age of Sigmar gamer first and even that is hard to find games to play. I have encouraged a lot of people and the stores to look into buying product, however, it is quite hard to get players to stop investing there hard earned money into a game that everyone plays as opposed to putting there money toward a game that no one or one person plays. Kind of the sad struggle I face.
I still have my Command and Conquer discs XD.
I'm super jealous! I lost mine many moons ago. Favorite game series, hands down.
I used to think skirmish games had the advantage of helping those with plastic crack addictions, however when war cry came out, I witnessed a man buy every warband that was released. I have seen men but 10 boxes of soldiers and wizards from north star and within a few hours see a cool metal reaper model and say "Wow I can make a whole new warband based around them."
Army games are personally my favorite but unless they are rank and flank games with tons of models neatly placed in square formations, I don't want any more than 30 or so models in my army.
Oof, yeah, some folk are always gonna buy in REALLY big. I suppose at least with most skirmish games the range is a little more limited?
She talks about BattleTech as a skirmish level game and how it has less figure density as I look at my battle tech collection a little over twelve thousand mechs, fighters, spaceships,Tanks, armored fighting vehicles and infantry stands. And my malifaux collection of guild Andrew outcasts with a little bit of ten thunders and never born tossed in
I love both skirmish and army size games. But I started with rogue trader 40k back in the day and still play both skirmish and army size games with it. It is a lot of fun. But solely narrative gaming. I don't play pointless games of head to head tournament style. They are just dull.
I love narrative gaming! Campaigns are the dream ticket!
@@DiscourseMinis they definitely are. We need more campaign gaming on you tube and at shops.
Blood bowl is my sneaky skirmish game I like to get friends into
Oh that is very sneaky. Thinking about tackle zones has always made my head hurt
The older I get the more I appreciate skirmish level games or small point level war games. However, If I'm going to play a larger point game, it's going to be a LARGE scale one and we are going to have a fun time and not be serious about it. I'm talking about 5,000 points+
My exception to this rule is Kings of War but only because that's a quicker game
Large games can be very tiring, haha! But I get you - if you're going to do one, may as well make it a big 'event', right?
@@DiscourseMinis agreed. I don't get to meet a lot of people who have as big of a collection than I do and I don't get to play these type of games very often so I appreciate the moments where I can. But 90% of the games I play today are low model count skirmish games or low point games of War games
"There eating her. And then they're going to eat me... Oh My Gooooooood!"
One of the most iconic lines, right? It's gotta be!
I prefer skirmish games, especially because I don't want to sink that much money to play. I also find there seem to be more tactics with skirmish games. Also - love all the Battletech memes in the back ground. I love Battletech and the KS has gotten me back into the fold.
funny that WH40K started out, in Rogue Trader where I too started, as an RPG style skirmish game, which was great fun. It seemed it would be really developing into something with so many promised updates... and it did, just, not what we thought it would be, becoming firmly a mass battle table top game. Oh well... I like skirmish games, have found my old 40K figures and culled out small skirmish factions of Marines, Tau, Orks and Guard that I will keep for skirmish games, sell off the rest.
Upvote immediately for your face on the soldier at 0:59.
Table size has been evolving and getting smaller, to better adjust to a reality of most people, who don't have dedicated gaming space. Infinity went from 4'x4' to 40"x38(?) then malifaux 3'x3'.... And the legends at Bushido and Alkemy for 90cm vs 90cm coffee table size. Side note I have never NEVER played PROPER 6'X4' game of 40k/wfb in 20 years :p
1. I don't know when an army game becomes a skirmish game, but I can tell you when a skirmish game becomes an army game. The answer is Warmachine/Hordes MKII. The problem is that the rules were originally designed for a skirmish game, and do not scale very well (unlike WH40k). I don't know if MKIII is better, because I stopped after Privateer introduced colossals.
2. For my money, the best skirmish game out there is Malifaux. The rules are excellent and prioritize achieving objectives rather than killing the opponent. Indeed, one can get tabled and still win because objectives are what matters (objectives usually being placing an objective marker on a certain place on the table or near a certain model, but some still do involve killing). The card system is excellent; It allows the defending player to take an active role in the defense since he too gets to flip a card to affect the target number. The resource management of the game is cool as well. Not only is there a turn by turn hand management aspect, but the fact that one both builds a crew using a resource that can be used in powerful ways in the game adds another dimension to the resource management. My only real gripe is that Wyrd's release/manufacturing schedule could be better, and that the models, while generally very good, are a real pain to put together.
Haha I've watched a few battle reports and heard about Malifaux models being really tough to put together (ears and stuff can be separate at times?). I love the card system, and really want to get a game in sometime. I was very close to picking up the Ortega gang box not too long ago!
And not so much a mini's game, but if you want something incredible to play, try Twilight Imperium. Its best at 6 players, and it takes a while, but one box has everything you need, and its one of the best tabletop games ever made!
Oh yeah, love Twilight Imperium! It's a big event game, and tough to get everyone together, but when you get a big enough crowd it;s a real blast!
Aside from the BGM, I'm actually not a fan of skirmish games. Like you said, I like seeing the large scale conflicts of full armies more. Skirmish is fun, but not "fulfilling" to me
I get you!!
Now you tell me after painting like 3k of imperial guard and scions.
I know the pain of painting a thousand imperial guard! You're in good company!
Yea the barrier to entry to mass battle games is great, but for me you don't have to chose between one or the other. For example, if you like me love Vikings and Anglo-Saxons. So you start collecting them. Don't aim for games like Hail Caesar from the get go, as the starter army is like 133 minis. Start with a game like Blood Raven where you can play with 5 minis per side. You will paint that in a month, without special effort. After you painted about 15 minis you can get to a game like Ravenfeast. You painted 30 Vikings? Go for Saga. You now have 60 Vikings? Pick up Lion Rampant. And at some point you will end up with those 133 Vikings and play the Battle of Fulford using Hail Caesar. And the same goes for every period. Even GW has now skirmish rules compatible with minis for their army sized games.
There is also one more point for army level games, but is a very subjective one - I love flanking, anchoring, column marches, changing formation etc. You just cannot have that with a skirmish game where figures can move quite freely around the board.
Yeah I totally get you on rank & flanking, you just can't really get that from a skirmish game, and is a very unique selling point! The truth is I love all sorts of games, but I wanted to make the case for skirmish games here because I think lots of people write them off unfairly! As you say, you can easily start skirmish and then go bigger!
@@DiscourseMinis You think? To be honest I thought that at this point skirmish level games are one the rise, not writen off from the get go. In historicals we have an explosion of skirmish level games even for napoleonics. Also in the more popular games department Warcry, new Kill Team emerged and other skirmish games became quite popular like Malifaux. And now I would say we have a new trend where grid based games start to surface like WH Underworlds or Godtear and I see those get a lot of new players, maybe because they draw people from the boardgaming community. Yea but you right people should be aware that skirmish games are a great alternative or a starting point in wargaming.
OVER THE TOP MEN! TO OUR DEATH! GLORY TO THE FIRST MAN TO DIE.
That and Bullet for my Valentine did a pretty damn good song about it. It makes me want to bench press an 18 wheeler.
For me, the big issue with army level games is they really need to use smaller scale miniatures. Old historical games that used 25mm miniatures usually had each miniature represent multiple soldiers and not a single person. So a unit of 20 miniatures might represent 200 soldiers. This was also usually reflected in the terrain being smaller scale than what you would see when soldiers to mini's are 1:1. Also, 1" usually represented a longer distance than you would see in a 1:1 scale game.
There are a few videos on UA-cam where people used fantasy .stl files and printed out 15mm scale AOS proxy armies, converted all ranges from inches to cm, and could easily play a full game, using the full rules, in an area about the size of one of those GW game boards. Even if they had to buy those mini's, they would have cost a fraction of what they do in 28mm, would be vastly easier to transport, and not take nearly as much room on the table to play.
See, i like army games because of the model count and tactics. I enjoy skirmish games too, but army building games will always be my Goto. Warhammer Fantasy is still the best miniature game ever made. Flames of war is incredible, 40k, lotr, and AoS are just so much fun.
I definitely love skirmish games, but ill always play army building games over skirmish if given the choice.
27 years and counting, it hasn't changed yet.
Try the glorious Kings of War.
@@colinmack8655 i have two KoW armies, but not much of a community.
Frankly, I just mostly prefer GW games, especially Warhammer Fantasy Army Project and 40k.
I started with Star Saga, I like the story/co-op games with friends. I'm waiting the rest of my Infinity:Defiance kickstarter to come in within the next week. Gloomhaven is awesome-sauce... I use ALL my minis for TRAVELLER RP games with friends, since most of my collection is sci-fi and boutique.
Yeah love co-op games too! There's too few of them on the market though, should be way more!
The issue I have is that my locals don’t want to buy into fads. Most of these games have seasonal players. They will spend $50. Play three or four games. Get something new. Eventually they stop doing this. If you over invest. You have no one to play with your $200 set up.
That's definitely something I hadn't considered! I'm pretty lucky to have a few different groups that I can play with, and some are down for any sort of game or others have a few specific games they'll play (but there's a few skirmish games included in that). I wonder though, does this downside happen for other army-level games that aren't warhammer too though?
@@DiscourseMinis depends on the locals. The ones here are flaky. It’s either all in on a big army for three or four months or a new skirmish game weekly. No one can settle on a game here. Sometimes people resell the skirmish games to other flaky groups here too. You’d think with a larger town eventually they would stop wasting money on new models and everyone would settle down.
I think it’s the “I spent $2,000 on this army. I’ll regret not playing it” that gets people to stay with GW.
This is where mini agnostic games are king. Everyone can just bring what they have and play together.q
@@TGC1775 Yeah there's definitely an element of investment that keeps people in GW games! It's that ubiquity too, hard to unseat the market leader if everyone has some connection to the game!
@@williamings773 Yeah I totally foresee a bright future for mini agnostic games! I used to be skeptical about them, but having played a few now I'm a big fan. I've been looking into Brutality actually and I like what I see!
Would love to hear your thoughts on what is currently the best intro game to non miniature gamers ( cost, size, hobby, ease of play). I submit that game is Aristeia! But would be interested in your take.
I have a few ideas on the subject! I've never heard of Aristeia that's completely passed under my radar! Is there any particular reason you think it's so good for new players?
@@DiscourseMinis I was going to do a video on it but I can't be bothered at the moment. Lots of reasons including only 4 minis per side, plastic minis with optional metal for more hobby types, boardgame and video game appeal. A great gateway game for cheap that let's you experience all the highlights of the hobby.
Great thing about skirmish games is you can just let your plastic addicted friend buy everything other than your own personal models and you'll have excellent terrain and access to rules for less money!
Oh wow your friend sounds very cool you should thank them by sending them more miniatures!
The troll 2 reference is gold
i also tried several skirmishers over the years but i stuck with kings of war because no skirmisher really sparked that excitment that i have setting up and moving my armies over the board to crush my opponents. But in Kings of War you move entire units and not single miniatures so basically its a skirmisher again :D
You can try running full tilt at a brick wall to answer that Batman question...
Slaanesh is about excess. Apocalypse-type 10k games seem right up their alley!
Yaaaas!
This channel deserves to be bigger
Thank you so much! That really does mean the world to me!
@@DiscourseMinis No worries! It's clear how much effort you put into writing these videos.
All of this is WAY over my head but I subscribed so I can learn more about table top games before I jump in.
Hey Greg! Thanks for joining! Don't worry, as you explore the space you'll come to know it all well :D
Top-Hatted Hamster games has a good range of 3d printable star wars minis. I've just ordered some
I have a few 3D printed star wars miniatures and I love 'em! Got a female officer, Saw Gerrera, Warner Herzog etc.
Three months later?! For me it would be three years to paint one of those starter boxes! By the I'm done the new edition is out and everyone has the latest releases which blow my starter set out the water looooool :'(
I like the long-haul side of the hobby. Choose an army and build it up for years, adding things over time. Once you get out the "release cycle" you are freed up to do what you want.
Most of my armies are historicals with fantasy elements! I like big battles in 15mm or 28mm :) But skirmish is cool too, currently working on a ruleset for fantasy skirmishes!
Relic Blade is my current favorite game and is also a skirmish game.
I love the effort, comedy and delivery of your content. Great stuff discourse!
Thanks a lot for the kind words John! I'm glad you enjoyed. I'm actually a big fan of your own content, so it means a lot!!
@@DiscourseMinis oh gosh. Thank you! 😅 I don't get that often haha.
Just found your channel. Lovely stuff. FWIW, I'm committed army-level (2mm scale Blucher looks awesome).
Awesome, thank you! Oh wow I just looked into that 2mm scale, that's crazy!!
My favourite skirmish game Is SAGA. Especially Age of Vikings
The saga dice and Battleboard system is so much fun and the multiple activity and fatigue is really cool too.
Love my converted Anglo-Dane warlord with his Sutton hoo helmet and daneaxe
Hey I've just recently heard of the SAGA game! I've seen that you can play the Irish.... This has me very intrigued. I love the Saxon period, it's such an underutilized setting imo
@@DiscourseMinis oh yeah! It's really great! The irish are fun glass cannons and they can replace some of their warriors with a special unit, Irish wolfhounds and no other unit can take dogs so that's a big plus. Great at chasing down Welsh javlin warriors on horseback or Norman crossbowmen.
@@DiscourseMinis the Irish Battleboard is also focused in hit and run attacks and tricks with terrain that lets them use it in ways others can't.
They're also unusually character focused as their other special unit a special pair of champion characters, Curaidh. They are tough and hit hard and have a special rule that redirects charges to them away from your warlord.
Age of Vikings is my favourite setting, but I want to try Age of Hannibal with a Gaelic force, and maybe Age of Magic too using my old Warhammer fantasy wood elves.
Both types of game are fun
Yeah that's the wee secret of this video, I actually love both! ♥️
hm, yes, skirmish level games. the "start small" hook for the army-tier fix later on. "well gosh, these Bestigor looked so lonely, I had to get a dozen more and then three wings of ungor archers and spears apiece, and now I'm selling platelets at the blood bank"
I prefer skirmish games (fav is marvel crisis protocol). I like being able to play almost anywhere, rules are not as chunky and hands tend to go faster so I don't feel as mentally drained. I enjoy AoS and bolt action and LoTR but if you give me a choice, I'll pick MCP 9 times out of 10. Great video
Thanks so much! Glad you liked it! Yeah, I find skirmish quicker and easier to both get on the table and get through the game :)
It would be interesting to see a introduction too other games. Just to have an overview what is out there.
Thank you for the suggestion!!
The simplicity (as in affordability) of skirmish level games is in fact a lie, and for one and one reason only: terrain. To really enjoy skirmish game one MUST utilize a shitload more terrain than on an army level game...and at the end of the day that reason alone can easily even or beat the bill with army level games. Also with 3d printing being a thing lately, the costs of army level games can drop down drastically.
But the thing here is, terrain can be very very cheap. Of course, if you buy the terrain pieces, it gets expensive but with terrain you can very easily craft a lot of cool stuff from scratch.
Highly depends of the terrain you want though.
Mountains and canyons for exampe... well I can craft, paint and decorate you a whole battlefield of those for less than 30 bucks.
I would love to see your mini's. What style you paint them. Personally i never played Warhammer, i am a fantasy army builder. Orc, goblin, elves, human, chaos, and my fav army of the undead. If i dig the sculpt, i will add to army. Dark heaven, Warhammer, d&d/Ral partha and what ever else floats my boat. I kinda want to make my own game up . Design it to be simple as possible.
Love skirmish games. Quick and dirty gaming that you actually finish the games in an evening.
Yeah, it can be so much effort to get an army-level game set up never mind finished!
Yep - i've basically quit everything else but Warcry at this point, still love Underworlds too but i ain't touching Harrowdeep with a 10 foot pole.
The logistics of doing a larger scale game is just SO much work, effort and money - carrying 100's of minis to shops n houses for games with mind numbing rules...
Actually can't remember last time I played an army game. Just don't have the time. Much prefer boxed standalone games such as dungeon saga, space hulk and in a few weeks kill team hopefully
Yeah, it's a lot easier to get those boxed games out on the table. An army game is a big event!
I just can't get into skirmish games on the principal that there are just so many awesome models to use that I hate trying to whittle a list down to 2k points let alone the requirements of a skirmish game. Im sure I could get into the narrative aspect of improving my unit but in take killteam for instance I can't even use my favorite units.
I will say I do love terrain pieces, though most of my stuff is home
Made
Remember that you can always collect plenty of models and then choose what to play on the day! :D
@@DiscourseMinis I was always that kid that wanted to break all his toys out for my grand epic battles, sure I had my favorites but I reckon I'd be more in the mood to just play an RPG if I was interested more in story of a few characters. I get what your saying and agree though
Terrain might be more important in skirmish, but if your nearly ignoring for Army games, ur doing it wrong
Oh yeah, I mean, I use terrain a lot, but it just suits me that it's less of a focus for army games because I'm pretty rubbish at putting terrain together.
I agree. games workshop consumers typically struggle to understand the appeal of collecting large projects and rarely ever have the attention span to see it through
I really like your intro segments hehehe
Thank you! You're very kind :)
I'm really enjoying your videos!
Awesome, thanks :D
Not gonna lie, jealous of the tie-dye
I'm bringing it back!
🤣 the opening killed me 🤣 also I think I agree with you the older I get the more I feel this partly for space, easy of travel and "shorter" games some still take ages 😅
Haha thanks so much, glad you enjoyed! I had a lot of fun making it. I totally agree on the space, and travelling too (not that that has been an issue for the last year lol). The shorter games aspect is a big deal too, sometimes I just can't work up the energy to set up a big table full of miniatures, but I usually can with a skirmish game!
Coming from Flames of War to Bolt Action, I think Bolt Action is skirmish level!! lol
I often find the table top community of 40k very toxic. Now i don't mean that all people are assholes, just that gw created such a community that people had to compete and people think that by acquiring those positions, they are some kind of intellectual.
Love the troll reference
What's with Necromunda? :) What I have heard, it is a nice skirmish game and is not so cost intensive yet, but we will see what GW makes out of it...
I do really like Necromunda! It's a fun skirmish game where different gangs fight one another :) For a GW game it's actually really cheap
@@DiscourseMinis Thank you for your really quick answer! 😃
I am going to go for it. Besides, which other Necromunda like game could you recommend?
Just found/subscribed your channel and really enjoying it! However, your accent is driving me crazy! Not that it is bad, by no means, but I just can't place it. Scottish? Welsh!? An answer would help scratch a mental itch. Thank you!
haha thank you! Glad you're enjoying
@@DiscourseMinis ah! Thank you!
How do I keep falling into other localish sounding mini youtubers 🤔
skirmish games...like...GORKAMORKA?!!!
Grabs badminton racket and ties sweater around neck as walking away stiffly... Offended!
haha omg nooo! I knew this would happen!
Sorry for my English. Unfortunately is not my native language.
The idea is not... relevant? I think the reason is the wrong question in this video.
I have been wargaming for a long time, nearly 20 years. I have tried many different games, not just tabletop, but also computer games.
So, let's look at computer games first. If you control about 20 characters (Warcraft 3), you need to see them all it ONE screen. If you control about 1000 characters (Total War), you need to see them all in ONE screen. So, different games need different SCALE to be comfortable playable!
Return to tabletop. Why do you ask about skirmish or army level? Why do you not ask about miniatures scale?
GW made us think, that 28/32mm scale is the only way to live. But this is not true! 28mm is a perfect scale for skirmishes. That is true. But! Not everyone likes skirmishers. Moreover many-many players came to wargaming in first place because they wanted to feel like Great Generals. I want to feel controlling a Great Army. Dancing around a little house is a boring thing. So! Get miniatures smaller, zoom out a camera! There are so many perfect games with 10mm, 6mm miniatures. They are completely awesome! They are very cheap and very easy to paint. In fact they are so beautiful on the table, that you will never want to try skirmishes any more.
Warmaster (and mods)
Epic
Warbands
Dropzone commander
DBA (and mods, Hordes of the things)
Hordes and heroes
Commander series (Blitzkrieg, Third war, Future war)
Battletech Alpha Strike
Maurice
Fantastic battles
Or! You can just try skirmishes with 10mm miniatures. Bolt action, for example - everything getting smaller!
P.S. Try some games with ships, water or space - they are completely different!
But please do not buy 15mm miniatures! They are a complete lie. They are not cheaper and not easier to paint than 28mm. You need exactly 6 and 10mm minis. Take a look at 3d-printed Warmaster miniatures. There are a lot of them.
Nope I am going to play Kings of War. Army game for me. And it does not have that level of release. Multibasing for the win.
Have you tried Kings of War Vanguard?
Ahh, I love army-level games too, what can I say? I just love miniature wargames!
I have not tried Kings of War Vanguard! Is it the skirmish version?
@@DiscourseMinis yes it is with a heavy narrative focus but you can also tie it into the larger game.
I love Skirmish Games, I’m actually conducting battle reports for the game Reign in Hell on my channel if interested.
My new favorite content creator!
Thank you!!
Teach your kids to play Warhammer- they'll have no money to spend on drugs
This is your brain on Warhammer!
I recommend Battletech Total Warfare.
Thanks for the recommendation!
Hey, Dawn of War is what got me into 40k and warhammer in general. Then I had no money and went Bolt Action.
Also, it's t'ah-ow (Tau), not Thai, but since you're inot Mordheim (Reikland Mercs m'self) as well, I'll let it slide.
Haha, I think my pronunciation of Tau might sound weird because of my accent! Reikland Mercenaries for me too!! Love me handguns.
@@DiscourseMinis you got that right!...And that sweet. sweet 12 inch Ld bubble is nothing to sneeze at as well...
although your 'review is better than most on the subject , it is full of poor concepts about "wargames" as opposed to 'Skirmish games'. For example I can buy an army of about 500 figures for around $100US...these figures are 20mm, but the detail and accuracy of the figures is equal or superior to anything else out there. Also the range of figures in 20mm is numbered in thousands of boxes
skirmish games??? *screams in slaanesh daemon
I can't pin the accent .Northen Irish ?
Yup! Exactly right! :D
@@DiscourseMinis Yes ! You don't have a thick accent. Oculus the 40k lore guy is from our island as well.
I could listen to you say games all day🤣
haha thank you!
If youtube keeps hyping the gw beef up you will be at 10k in no time. And well deserved!
Haha thanks!
@Discourse Miniatures, are you censoring my post?
Fully agreed and support this line of thought! *nods*
Haha thanks! Glad to hear it!
@@DiscourseMinis hey, us content creators gotta stick togetha! 😊
troll 2 reference
They're eating her!!