I thank you on behalf of the European amateur chemist (or wherever sulfuric acid is not available) for providing another alternative method to make sulfuric acid!
@@aga5897 No in either of these, but sulfuric acid in high conc. is banned in some places, and it is often hard to come by for amateur chemists even at lower conc. as I often heard people complained about it.
@@aga5897 It is often out of reach for amateurs as I often heard the struggles from other people. The US has it as a drain opener which is indeed a very luxurious thing to have.
It's crazy to think how much my life has changed since first finding this channel. I have got married, had a kid, bought a house, paid it off, and had my 12th anniversary in the meantime. The videos have stayed at the same high quality. No annoying sponsorships, no over the top clickbait, just good repeatable information. Here's to another 15 years or so, Mr. Rage.
Good on ya. You are on here and speak properly. So use your intelligence to organize your community, and teach chem to whoever will listen. We won't be able to afford decent housing soon, but that doesn't mean our future generations can't.
Yeah, I actually thought about this method being possible a few years ago. It seems like it violates the “can’t make strong acid from weak acid” principle, but it actually doesn’t. It’s because that’s not the only force at play here it isn’t as simple as the oxalic acid protonating a sulfate ion and generating sulfuric acid. That kind of reaction is still unfavored. But you’re dealing with the power of Le Chatelier‘s principle. Oxalate is an unusual anion, due to how insoluble some of its salts are. And those salts are still mostly insoluble even in acidic conditions, which is rare. So the reaction is pushed forward by the mass action and formation of insoluble iron oxalate, NOT the protonation of sulfate. That still happens, but it needs the much stronger driving force of removing oxalate from the equation to overcome the unfavorable energy barrier.
I am unsure about the practical usefulness of this process, but it is very elegant and smart, nice job. Your videos have taught me a lot and this one doesn't disappoint either.
The method using copper sulfate has worked out pretty well for me so far so I'm also puzzled by it not working out here. Admittedly it is a real pain to filter off the copper oxalate and it always will be. For me it usually does come out by letting it settle or running it through the frit several times. The only ways my procedure differs from yours is the fact that I'm using smaller amounts of reactants in less concentrated solutions and not heating anything. In fact the oxalic acid gets pretty cool upon dissolving so it's usually below room temp. The lower concentration of reactants also makes the suspension of copper oxalate thinner which might help it settle. Another thing I want to mention is that a similar process can be done using sodium bisulfate and hydrochloric acid. By adding finely powdered NaHSO4 to concentrated HCl it will react to form sodium chloride which is sparsely soluble in concentrated HCl. It doesn't look like a lot is happening but upon reacting these in hot solution, cooling, filtering and distilling one actually obtains quite a bit of sulfuric acid. The yield sure isn't too high but the nice thing is that you get your unreacted starting materials back. Unreacted HCl just distills off and NaHSO4 precipitates out while concentrating the sulfuric acid. For lack of a better alternative this is usually my go to route. Furthermore there's this which i haven't yet tried myself: www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=79548 (there should be a url there, i hope yt plays along) Also just let my say that you made one hell of an amazing video again which is of great value to the amateur chemistry community. You never seem to disappoint. Thanks!
I can't believe you could post an outside link. UA-cam have deleted so many of my comments with links I don't even consider it possible anymore. I wonder what it is that make some links allowed and most not.
I bet you are unaware of the impressive number of people that became chemists fom your inspiration just by simply helping me pave my way to it since I made sure to perpetrate the passion for it and I'm pretty confident I'm not the only one.
I wonder if chilling the copper sulfate solution prior to oxalate addition would slow crystal growth and thus create "bulkier" particulates that would be able to be filtered on at least a frit if not even a paper filter.
That's what I was thinking. You might not even need a high-powered (expensive) one. Copper II Oxalate has a density of 6.57 g/cm3. Presumably you could DIY a centrifuge to separate something more than 6 times denser than water, even if it is in molecule-fine particles. Just be careful to balance!
Potentially the pore size of the is larger than that used by other amatuers. It's always interesting to hear more examples of things that go against what you're taught in highschool/undergraduate chemistry classes!
A slightly easier, and possibly more time saving way to photodecompose the iron oxalate would be to use a UV lamp. Those can be fairly cheap, only run on similarly cheap electrical power, and are sometimes even more powerful than the UV you get from exposure to the sun, especially if you place the beaker directly under it and blast it for a while up close and in a contained area.
Excellent! after googling I found that iron sulphate heptahydrate is = ferrous sulphate, te one easy to get that I use on the garden. Oxalic acid is also easy to get as wood bleacher.
I do enjoy the clarification of parallel methods that may (or may not) work. It's fascinating how transition metals with supposedly equivalent behaviors end up being entirely different when you go to try the method. Should the metal oxylate form? Sure thing. Does it? Probably. Can you separate it? Not at all, yes, and maybe.
This was a chemical reaction I'm curious about, never knew they was a easier way to recover sulfuric acid using oxalic acid. When salts like sodium or potassium sulfate are form they really difficult to make sulfuric acid unless using a way more stronger acid then sulfuric acid, or a electrolysis that involves to much current. Oxalic acid do form alot of insoluble metal salts... It's a miracle that we can do this, this why I love this reaction.
Another side note, could have tried less water when using copper sulfate, I could have produce a thicker crystal of copper oxalate, then later on dilute it down if required. It really makes us curious weither the yield was good.
From a molecular bio approach, I think centrifugation is probably the best way to seperate the milk of coppernisia you made, though this requires a centrifuge. If you have one already this might be worth exploring
6:00 As a reducing agent you can use regular iron wool. It reduces Fe3+ to Fe2+ while going in solution as Fe2+, gives a purer product and can be easily filtered off.
I feel like if you could continuously filter the precipitate out the magnesium yield would go up. Like use a cheap aquarium pump to cycle it through a filter. Might take longer but bulk processing "hands off" is still pretty good.
❤❤God bless you, Doctor N-BL! I just found an excellent source of oxalic acid yesterday at Ace hardware store. It is sold as a rust remover, right next to the HF acid for the same. They also sell h2so4 where I live ( same store even ). If you can't get these where you live but need some, "Blackhawk hardware (Ace)" online sells it. I'm sure you can even get 5 lbs of kmno4 online thru them, too, for just under 40 USD. I always love your exploration of science, and I've learned a lot through your channel. Thank you for every video. Failures sometimes are my favorite, even though I'm at first like "oh... he failed... not that video" at first, but then you're better than most. And your details on the science are soooo refreshing and seem to be giving others the notion to do the same, which I love to see. Please keep it up, and God bless you to your true name and your family.❤❤
If you mean dry distillation of the sulfate salts this is viable (it has been done for centuries) but involves very high temperatures (>600°C), it can't be done in ordinary borosilicate lab glass, and it is very dangerous.
If oxalic acid is strong enough to displace H2SO4 from FeSO4, could this be modified to work with a nitrate salt (say, CuNO3) that would be rendered insoluble upon reaction with oxalic acid and produce HNO3? Im aware it's probably far more efficient to use the NaHSO4 and KNO3 distillation method, but it does make me curious if its possible on a theoretical level. Another absolutely genius, awesome video!
Oxalic acid solution added to calcium nitrate solution precipitates calcium oxalate and yields dilute nitric acid. Let precipitate settle, decant, filter, distill. This also works with CuNO3
@@jbone877 Very interesting. Thanks for the information. I had a hunch it would work but i was curious if anyone could confirm it. Oxalic acid is incredibly capable for a weak organic acid. It also works great for cleaning MnO2 and FeCl3 stains which are a pain to deal with (from personal experience).
@@stefangadshijew1682 This is true, I suppose I should have clarified that I meant the technical term "weak acid" (an acid that does not fully ionize in solution). I'm still a noob amateur chemist learning the ropes, but it's my understanding that as a general rule, weak acids cannot displace strong mineral acids (H2SO4, HNO3, HCl, HBr, HF, HI is a bit of a weird case though) from their respective salts in any meaningful amount. For example, you can't make HCl from adding glacial acetic acid to table salt, but it absolutely works with heating a mixture of salt and bisulfate and bubbling the gas into water with a funnel trap as NurdRage has demonstrated, and i have personally made HCl that way. I know this rule doesn't always apply in every situation though because I've read you can make the strong, volatile mineral acids from the action of hot phosphoric acid, technically a "weak acid", on their respective salts, you just have to be mindful of the fact hot H3PO4 etches glass at those temps.
@@keithm5378 Hey there! :) The "rule" of "strong acids liberate weak acids out of their salts" isn't really a rule. The rules at play here is the law of mass action and the principle of La Chatelier. You've got an equilibrium between two acids that favors the formation of the weak acid. But then you also have other equilibria or non-equilibrium-reactions that can shift the equilibrium to the product side. If you generate HCl with H2SO4, you are also generating the stronger acid with the weaker acid. (pKa -6 and -2 respectively). But since you are distilling off the HCl, there will always be new H2SO4 and NaCl consumed and the reaction goes to completion. Those precipitation reactions are exactly analogolous.
It's gotta be cheap for us fixed income types....OTOH I remember a mine adit in Arizona that was filled with melanterite (FeS04 hydrate from oxidized pyrite)
Don't they usually use some polyaluminates to flocculate more effectively? great vid tho. I really thought the magnesium would work; ion radii are similar so you'd think it would just electrostatically sort of work out... clearly more going on of course :)
hi, can you re-do this but with manganese sulfate ? manganese oxalate is 3 times less soluble than iron oxalate, and you wont run into problem of air oxidizing the subtracts . also I think there must be some way to recycle manganese oxalate.
Yes, that works - to a certain extent: because the reaction mixture gets hot (so it needs to be cooled down well), and the hotter it gets the less SO2 dissolves and reacts.
@@ae-bd5grsimply concentrate the hydrogen peroxide by evaporating the water. It won't work above 30% as the heat decomposes more hydrogen peroxide than the proportion of water removed and you'd need a vacuum to properly distill H2O2 (which also has a high explosion risk). But you can easily get 20-25% H2O2 by just heating the diluted stuff at 70°C for 10 to 20 hours.
I'm guessing the iron (ii) oxalate is at least partially a complex, which is why it is more strongly bound than the sulphate anion. But, I'm too lazy to go and dig out my undergrad textbooks to confirm this. Anyone??
Does this mean ebonizing wood with iron (II) sulfate also produces small amounts of sulfuric acid in the wood after the iron tannate complex forms? I know you say it doesn't work with other acids but if they weren't reacting there wouldn't be tons of black complex crashing out and dyeing the wood.
How does the yield compare to dry-distilling the Iron Sulphate directly, like back in the days of alchemy? Suppose I bought a 50lb sack of the stuff because it's not particularly expensive, and making an iron retort isn't a problem.
Can you try sulphuric acid from ferrous sulphate oxidizing it to Fe³+ and precipitating it with copper oxide to make copper sulphate and use any method to obtain the sulphuric acid?
Do you think aluminium sulfate could be used instead of ferrous sulfate. It is also insoluble in water, so it should be nearly the same reaction, or is there something more to ir
You need to pass diamond vapor and chlorine over calcined wendigo bones at 600°C while reading the book of the dead. Be careful though as this is considered black chemistry and it is a forbidden art.
Maybe Copper Oxalate method failed because you used diluted chemicals and ambient temperature, as far as I remeber it is more preferable to use higher concentration of solutions and temperature to obtain bigger crystals.
I wonder if there would be a way to set this up where the sulfuric acid falls to the bottom, due to its density, and can't react with the iron sulfate. I'm not a chemist, I'm a trucker, so idk if this is even theoretically possible
Im completely new to chemistry and would like to know where to start to know how to produce these things. Any videos, playlists or books would be very helpful! 🤔
If you start from scratch just use a random high school chemistry book and start from there. Then, once you understand the very basics you can study from some university level textbooks. If you (like me) are interested in Organic Chemistry I reccomend Organic Chemistry 9th edition by McMurry, Practical Organic chemistry Vogel and Advanced Organic Chemistry by Carey for the most serious stuff.
Iron(II) oxalate is insoluble. Iron(III) oxalate, on the opposite, is well soluble. Red rust contains mostly hydrated iron(III) oxide; black rust is a mixed Fe(II) and Fe(III) compound.
How about Lead Sulphate (spelled Englishly) extracted from deceased car batteries? Must be some way to salvage remaining Sulphuric Acid (still spelled Englishly) from the mess the lead plates turn into before they short out the cells rendering the batteries useless... :)
You probably could, but the lead itself is toxic and an absolute nightmare to safely separate and contain. It's not as bad as mercury, but completely not worth it for the amateur. For the same costs and labor of having to contain lead, you could do it cheaper, safer and more fun using one of the other processes like copper sulfate electrolysis or copper chloride process.
@@NurdRage Was just a random thought given the number of car batteries I'd seen over the years sat out on the street (picked up by scrappers who don't care about lead toxicity), free source materials and all... :)
Soo. I extracted a bunch of oxalic acid from my rhubarb 😀 I used 99%-isopropyl to fully destroy the plant cell membrains [little bioscience] Then added 1/4 parts water. And began to salt in and salt out different levels..[another bioscience technique] The weird oxalic [crystal/acid] structure is more soluble in alcohol than water.. so if i let that Ethel-oxalic-acid evaporate itself in a glass pan in the sun if needed ... is that not energy efficiant oxalic acid no distillation?? 😆 And wut the heck is in the white slime then..¿
At first I was like, what? No, this is completely different, this is about amateur access. But computing pi in dumb ways is kind of like amateur math, doing it just for fun, so yeah, it kind of is the same thing
@NurdRage For really hard to filter stuff, I vacuum filter through a 10cm buchner funnel and filter paper with diatomacious earth. I really helps to add a round piece of course fiberglass cloth under the filter paper (slightly smaller than the filter paper): it adds lots of flow channels and also supports the filter paper so it won't blow through the holes in the funnel. You can also use plastic screen if it's resistant to whatever you're filtering. Just pre-wet the filter paper using water+DME and keep running the DME water until it runs clear. Rinse the flask and you're ready to go. Sorry for the late edit. One more thing that can really help: Seal the top of the funnel with a flexible film, like Saran wrap or even film from a condom (unlubricated 😉). It will compress the stuff above the filter and improve throughput. Caution: 14.7 PSI on a 10cm filter is (if I did the math right) almost 180 pounds of force! Wear safety glasses! And as I also found out, erlenmeyer flasks with a side arm are not always vacuum rated! Fume hood window & safety glasses saved me from my own ignorance/stupidity.
I was also playing around with the idea and found a way of making sulfuric acid from oxalic acid by heating oxalic acid together with regular magnesium sulfate epsom salt. when melted together it turned into a white sludgey liquid, which contained the sulfuric acid, which then could just be distilled off. Its also a really efficient method when making nitric acid, as potassium nitrate could just be mixed in with the dry oxalic acid and magnesium sulfate powder mixture. When heated the potassium nitrate reacted with the sulfuric acid and produced the nitric acid, which also could be distilled with ease.
i hope you'll show the same method for making nitric acid as well, since magnesium nitrate does work for making nitric acid and it's much easier to distill than sulfuric acid it's the best method for making nitric acid requiring no high temperatures or expensive sulfuric acid
I have been watching your videos for so long it's ridiculous; I just have a quick comment on a possibility for an improvement in this one. Would there be any possibility of improvement in the copper method using a very fine Celite? Or rather more specifically, would you be able to separate an extra fine celite powder from the distillate and then be able to use the resulting solution? Unfortunately instead of my original college degree being chemistry (like 7 years ago), I decided to go with Finance, so I truly don't know if there's any major issues with this thought, but if you or anyone else cares to respond, I would be thrilled to gain any knowledge y'all have about this process!! =)
As cheap as off grid solar is nowadays , I don't see any downside to using it for a continuous electrolytic chemical factory , for producing all sorts of useful stuff , like chloratea , perchloratea , acids , whatever . You can have a shed or garage full of Pauling furnaces running 24 / 7 . Sure they are inefficient , but , once you have your PV setup , the rest is just childs play and it can run indefinitely courtesy of the sun , assuming you have enough storage capacity to run that long , and , enough panels to keep the storage bank topped off .
All through this video, I was thinking about the big bag of copper sulphate out in the shed... so thanks for answering my inevitable question without me even having to ask it. :)
NurdRage is Da Boss ! One way to purify/concentrate Sulphuric is to boil the hell out of it until the fumes become thick. Then add a splash of 3% H2O2 if it's brown. Amazingly that actually works with no dramas, in my case at least.
@@NurdRage Question: do you ever get contact from the SM folks from back in Your days there? I did, saying they missed me. That's like saying they missed a hole in the head, which was a bit odd.
Not really, and its been so long that i'm sure more than half the people i once knew likely moved on. so even if i did come back there wouldn't be anyone to recognize me.
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Astarion loves his photochemistry.
Alien digestion by-products?
just before this I was watching BG3 videos and I thought youtube glitched on me
I thought it was an ad and started looking for the skip button
Astarion legit caught me off guard and left me laughing for a good minute XD.
Brilliant
Praise the sun!
I don't care what your mother says about you, you sir are a genius, and do not let anyone tell you otherwise.
yeh this one is fairly impressive to me as well, hes really doin the chemistry here!!!
The least available part of this video was the sunlight lol.
England, eh?
whole world is cloudy lately@@nunyabisnass1141
I thank you on behalf of the European amateur chemist (or wherever sulfuric acid is not available) for providing another alternative method to make sulfuric acid!
Sulphuric acid is Widely available in Europe. You must be in Netherlands or Belgium.
@@aga5897 No in either of these, but sulfuric acid in high conc. is banned in some places, and it is often hard to come by for amateur chemists even at lower conc. as I often heard people complained about it.
@@aga5897 It is often out of reach for amateurs as I often heard the struggles from other people. The US has it as a drain opener which is indeed a very luxurious thing to have.
15 % is available here.
@@experimental_chemistry 'Here' is only known to You.
It's crazy to think how much my life has changed since first finding this channel. I have got married, had a kid, bought a house, paid it off, and had my 12th anniversary in the meantime. The videos have stayed at the same high quality. No annoying sponsorships, no over the top clickbait, just good repeatable information. Here's to another 15 years or so, Mr. Rage.
> bought a house, paid it off
> 15 years
😭
@@beefchicken It will never be easy to do ever again, and that's an absolute travesty.
Good on ya. You are on here and speak properly. So use your intelligence to organize your community, and teach chem to whoever will listen. We won't be able to afford decent housing soon, but that doesn't mean our future generations can't.
Awesome! Thanks for showing the stuff that doesn't work as well. Negative results are still results 😉
Oxalic acid is a cheat code for mineral acids
Pretty much. It's also awsome for metal titration for the same reason.
can you use teraftalic acid instead ?
the power of kidney stone
@@ns-li4pr You should try, and report back here.
Yeah, I actually thought about this method being possible a few years ago. It seems like it violates the “can’t make strong acid from weak acid” principle, but it actually doesn’t. It’s because that’s not the only force at play here it isn’t as simple as the oxalic acid protonating a sulfate ion and generating sulfuric acid. That kind of reaction is still unfavored. But you’re dealing with the power of Le Chatelier‘s principle. Oxalate is an unusual anion, due to how insoluble some of its salts are. And those salts are still mostly insoluble even in acidic conditions, which is rare. So the reaction is pushed forward by the mass action and formation of insoluble iron oxalate, NOT the protonation of sulfate. That still happens, but it needs the much stronger driving force of removing oxalate from the equation to overcome the unfavorable energy barrier.
6:07 I totally thought this fine NurdRage video had been interrupted at the BEST PART by one of those stupid game ads. 😂
He’s back boys!!
If NurdRage emerges out of his Nurd Hole without a new recipe for sulfuric acid, it means another six weeks of winter
I am unsure about the practical usefulness of this process, but it is very elegant and smart, nice job. Your videos have taught me a lot and this one doesn't disappoint either.
The method using copper sulfate has worked out pretty well for me so far so I'm also puzzled by it not working out here. Admittedly it is a real pain to filter off the copper oxalate and it always will be. For me it usually does come out by letting it settle or running it through the frit several times. The only ways my procedure differs from yours is the fact that I'm using smaller amounts of reactants in less concentrated solutions and not heating anything. In fact the oxalic acid gets pretty cool upon dissolving so it's usually below room temp. The lower concentration of reactants also makes the suspension of copper oxalate thinner which might help it settle.
Another thing I want to mention is that a similar process can be done using sodium bisulfate and hydrochloric acid. By adding finely powdered NaHSO4 to concentrated HCl it will react to form sodium chloride which is sparsely soluble in concentrated HCl. It doesn't look like a lot is happening but upon reacting these in hot solution, cooling, filtering and distilling one actually obtains quite a bit of sulfuric acid. The yield sure isn't too high but the nice thing is that you get your unreacted starting materials back. Unreacted HCl just distills off and NaHSO4 precipitates out while concentrating the sulfuric acid. For lack of a better alternative this is usually my go to route.
Furthermore there's this which i haven't yet tried myself: www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=79548
(there should be a url there, i hope yt plays along)
Also just let my say that you made one hell of an amazing video again which is of great value to the amateur chemistry community. You never seem to disappoint. Thanks!
I can't believe you could post an outside link. UA-cam have deleted so many of my comments with links I don't even consider it possible anymore. I wonder what it is that make some links allowed and most not.
I bet you are unaware of the impressive number of people that became chemists fom your inspiration just by simply helping me pave my way to it since I made sure to perpetrate the passion for it and I'm pretty confident I'm not the only one.
I wonder if chilling the copper sulfate solution prior to oxalate addition would slow crystal growth and thus create "bulkier" particulates that would be able to be filtered on at least a frit if not even a paper filter.
Or perhaps a known flocculating agent?
Copper oxalate simply needs a good centrifuge, IMO.
Just my thought.
That's what I was thinking.
You might not even need a high-powered (expensive) one. Copper II Oxalate has a density of 6.57 g/cm3.
Presumably you could DIY a centrifuge to separate something more than 6 times denser than water, even if it is in molecule-fine particles.
Just be careful to balance!
Most centrifuges do 10 ml or so. Unless you've got a grad student/peon this wouldn't be fun
Oil flywheel centrifuge should work. the big heavy kind they use for biodiesel.
If size is an issue then maybe a lawn mower centrifuge? I just bought one so it came to mind.
Potentially the pore size of the is larger than that used by other amatuers.
It's always interesting to hear more examples of things that go against what you're taught in highschool/undergraduate chemistry classes!
A slightly easier, and possibly more time saving way to photodecompose the iron oxalate would be to use a UV lamp. Those can be fairly cheap, only run on similarly cheap electrical power, and are sometimes even more powerful than the UV you get from exposure to the sun, especially if you place the beaker directly under it and blast it for a while up close and in a contained area.
Excellent! after googling I found that iron sulphate heptahydrate is = ferrous sulphate, te one easy to get that I use on the garden. Oxalic acid is also easy to get as wood bleacher.
I wonder if HF with Calcium salts would also work due to the extreme insolubility of CaF2.
Tbh I'd really rather not find out 😅
I do enjoy the clarification of parallel methods that may (or may not) work. It's fascinating how transition metals with supposedly equivalent behaviors end up being entirely different when you go to try the method. Should the metal oxylate form? Sure thing. Does it? Probably. Can you separate it? Not at all, yes, and maybe.
This was a chemical reaction I'm curious about, never knew they was a easier way to recover sulfuric acid using oxalic acid. When salts like sodium or potassium sulfate are form they really difficult to make sulfuric acid unless using a way more stronger acid then sulfuric acid, or a electrolysis that involves to much current. Oxalic acid do form alot of insoluble metal salts... It's a miracle that we can do this, this why I love this reaction.
Another side note, could have tried less water when using copper sulfate, I could have produce a thicker crystal of copper oxalate, then later on dilute it down if required. It really makes us curious weither the yield was good.
that clip of Astarion yelling about sun was so unexpected i nearly choked on my tea.
Sweet. Great to see more accessible syntheses.
Calcium sulfate would be a good one to try
Yes, it would be interesting, but it's probably very slow reaction due to the very low solubility of CaSO4.
@@user255 yeah that’s true
From a molecular bio approach, I think centrifugation is probably the best way to seperate the milk of coppernisia you made, though this requires a centrifuge. If you have one already this might be worth exploring
6:00 As a reducing agent you can use regular iron wool. It reduces Fe3+ to Fe2+ while going in solution as Fe2+, gives a purer product and can be easily filtered off.
I feel like if you could continuously filter the precipitate out the magnesium yield would go up. Like use a cheap aquarium pump to cycle it through a filter. Might take longer but bulk processing "hands off" is still pretty good.
❤❤God bless you, Doctor N-BL! I just found an excellent source of oxalic acid yesterday at Ace hardware store. It is sold as a rust remover, right next to the HF acid for the same. They also sell h2so4 where I live ( same store even ). If you can't get these where you live but need some, "Blackhawk hardware (Ace)" online sells it. I'm sure you can even get 5 lbs of kmno4 online thru them, too, for just under 40 USD. I always love your exploration of science, and I've learned a lot through your channel. Thank you for every video. Failures sometimes are my favorite, even though I'm at first like "oh... he failed... not that video" at first, but then you're better than most. And your details on the science are soooo refreshing and seem to be giving others the notion to do the same, which I love to see. Please keep it up, and God bless you to your true name and your family.❤❤
Given that you already have green vitriol one can simply extract the oil of vitriol by destillation, Sir!
If you mean dry distillation of the sulfate salts this is viable (it has been done for centuries) but involves very high temperatures (>600°C), it can't be done in ordinary borosilicate lab glass, and it is very dangerous.
Always love these videos of making reagents from potential waste products from other reactions. 😁
Oxalic acid also increases the absorption of Cr(lll), in the body, among other things.
If oxalic acid is strong enough to displace H2SO4 from FeSO4, could this be modified to work with a nitrate salt (say, CuNO3) that would be rendered insoluble upon reaction with oxalic acid and produce HNO3? Im aware it's probably far more efficient to use the NaHSO4 and KNO3 distillation method, but it does make me curious if its possible on a theoretical level. Another absolutely genius, awesome video!
Oxalic acid solution added to calcium nitrate solution precipitates calcium oxalate and yields dilute nitric acid. Let precipitate settle, decant, filter, distill. This also works with CuNO3
@@jbone877 Very interesting. Thanks for the information. I had a hunch it would work but i was curious if anyone could confirm it. Oxalic acid is incredibly capable for a weak organic acid. It also works great for cleaning MnO2 and FeCl3 stains which are a pain to deal with (from personal experience).
@@keithm5378 With a pKa around 1.5, oxalic acid isn't actually that much of a "weak" acid, compared to for example citric acid with 3.1
@@stefangadshijew1682 This is true, I suppose I should have clarified that I meant the technical term "weak acid" (an acid that does not fully ionize in solution). I'm still a noob amateur chemist learning the ropes, but it's my understanding that as a general rule, weak acids cannot displace strong mineral acids (H2SO4, HNO3, HCl, HBr, HF, HI is a bit of a weird case though) from their respective salts in any meaningful amount. For example, you can't make HCl from adding glacial acetic acid to table salt, but it absolutely works with heating a mixture of salt and bisulfate and bubbling the gas into water with a funnel trap as NurdRage has demonstrated, and i have personally made HCl that way.
I know this rule doesn't always apply in every situation though because I've read you can make the strong, volatile mineral acids from the action of hot phosphoric acid, technically a "weak acid", on their respective salts, you just have to be mindful of the fact hot H3PO4 etches glass at those temps.
@@keithm5378 Hey there! :)
The "rule" of "strong acids liberate weak acids out of their salts" isn't really a rule. The rules at play here is the law of mass action and the principle of La Chatelier.
You've got an equilibrium between two acids that favors the formation of the weak acid. But then you also have other equilibria or non-equilibrium-reactions that can shift the equilibrium to the product side.
If you generate HCl with H2SO4, you are also generating the stronger acid with the weaker acid. (pKa -6 and -2 respectively).
But since you are distilling off the HCl, there will always be new H2SO4 and NaCl consumed and the reaction goes to completion.
Those precipitation reactions are exactly analogolous.
Free sun is a giant plus :)
It's gotta be cheap for us fixed income types....OTOH I remember a mine adit in Arizona that was filled with melanterite (FeS04 hydrate from oxidized pyrite)
Finally i can unpetrify everyone and restart humanity.
Don't they usually use some polyaluminates to flocculate more effectively?
great vid tho.
I really thought the magnesium would work; ion radii are similar so you'd think it would just electrostatically sort of work out... clearly more going on of course :)
Thank you ❤
Heating FeSO4 could be changed to SO3 gas. yield is 100%.
Have you tried centrifuging the copper oxalate?
Can difficult filtrations be tackled by centrifugal methods ? Not available to most but I’m sure I could build something IF it would work.
hi 1 method of separating the copper is to use a centrifuge
hi, can you re-do this but with manganese sulfate ? manganese oxalate is 3 times less soluble than iron oxalate, and you wont run into problem of air oxidizing the subtracts . also I think there must be some way to recycle manganese oxalate.
Oxalic acid? Fascinating. Get out your kiwifruit skins and rhubarb stalks! We're making sulfuric acid!
Rhubarb leaves*
Could you generate H2SO4 by bubbling SO2 into H2O2 ?
Yes, that works - to a certain extent: because the reaction mixture gets hot (so it needs to be cooled down well), and the hotter it gets the less SO2 dissolves and reacts.
Yea i did it but since i cant get more than 6% h2o2 it wasnt worth my time
@@ae-bd5grsimply concentrate the hydrogen peroxide by evaporating the water. It won't work above 30% as the heat decomposes more hydrogen peroxide than the proportion of water removed and you'd need a vacuum to properly distill H2O2 (which also has a high explosion risk). But you can easily get 20-25% H2O2 by just heating the diluted stuff at 70°C for 10 to 20 hours.
I'm guessing the iron (ii) oxalate is at least partially a complex, which is why it is more strongly bound than the sulphate anion. But, I'm too lazy to go and dig out my undergrad textbooks to confirm this. Anyone??
I just looked on Wikipedia, and it's a coordination polymer with the oxalate bridging between two irons, hence the stability and low solubility.
Does this mean ebonizing wood with iron (II) sulfate also produces small amounts of sulfuric acid in the wood after the iron tannate complex forms? I know you say it doesn't work with other acids but if they weren't reacting there wouldn't be tons of black complex crashing out and dyeing the wood.
How does the yield compare to dry-distilling the Iron Sulphate directly, like back in the days of alchemy? Suppose I bought a 50lb sack of the stuff because it's not particularly expensive, and making an iron retort isn't a problem.
and what is the best way to get nitric acid to make the oxalic acid if you don't have sulfuric acid or oxalic acid?
Será que não dá pra fazer ácido sulfúrico com ácido sulfamico + ácido nítrico??
Can you try sulphuric acid from ferrous sulphate oxidizing it to Fe³+ and precipitating it with copper oxide to make copper sulphate and use any method to obtain the sulphuric acid?
Do you think aluminium sulfate could be used instead of ferrous sulfate. It is also insoluble in water, so it should be nearly the same reaction, or is there something more to ir
Do you have a project you're working towards? I'm trying to see if the last few videos are forshadowing anything.
Up next sulphuric to pure sulphur ?
Is the yield of the se reactions Better than electrolysis of copper sulfate?
Hello how r u sir how to make Diamond chloride making the video
You need transparent aluminum and unobtanium, both very expensive reagents, basically impossible to get.
Reacting diamond with chlorine would give various chlorocarbons, like carbon tetrachloride.
You need to pass diamond vapor and chlorine over calcined wendigo bones at 600°C while reading the book of the dead.
Be careful though as this is considered black chemistry and it is a forbidden art.
Maybe Copper Oxalate method failed because you used diluted chemicals and ambient temperature, as far as I remeber it is more preferable to use higher concentration of solutions and temperature to obtain bigger crystals.
Just dry distill the ironsulfate, like they did in the good old days, and save the oxalic acid 😉
I wonder if there would be a way to set this up where the sulfuric acid falls to the bottom, due to its density, and can't react with the iron sulfate. I'm not a chemist, I'm a trucker, so idk if this is even theoretically possible
By centrifugation you can separate things by density. But sulfuric acid is fully miscible with water so this would not work at all.
Im completely new to chemistry and would like to know where to start to know how to produce these things. Any videos, playlists or books would be very helpful! 🤔
If you start from scratch just use a random high school chemistry book and start from there. Then, once you understand the very basics you can study from some university level textbooks. If you (like me) are interested in Organic Chemistry I reccomend Organic Chemistry 9th edition by McMurry, Practical Organic chemistry Vogel and Advanced Organic Chemistry by Carey for the most serious stuff.
@@lagrangiankid378 Thanks! 👍
I'm already subscribed. Waiting on the nitric acid video.
Could there be a use for extremely finely divided copper oxalate?
I don't get it. If iron oxalate is insoluble why oxalic acid used to dissolve rust?
Iron(II) oxalate is insoluble. Iron(III) oxalate, on the opposite, is well soluble. Red rust contains mostly hydrated iron(III) oxide; black rust is a mixed Fe(II) and Fe(III) compound.
Best chanel. 😊
Thinking of trying Calcium Sulfate. Anyone have suggestions?
Is this da acid which makes you fly?
Sulfuric acid has no immediate and direct application in the aerospace industry.
How about Lead Sulphate (spelled Englishly) extracted from deceased car batteries? Must be some way to salvage remaining Sulphuric Acid (still spelled Englishly) from the mess the lead plates turn into before they short out the cells rendering the batteries useless... :)
You probably could, but the lead itself is toxic and an absolute nightmare to safely separate and contain. It's not as bad as mercury, but completely not worth it for the amateur. For the same costs and labor of having to contain lead, you could do it cheaper, safer and more fun using one of the other processes like copper sulfate electrolysis or copper chloride process.
@@NurdRage Was just a random thought given the number of car batteries I'd seen over the years sat out on the street (picked up by scrappers who don't care about lead toxicity), free source materials and all... :)
What if we use calcium sulfate?
Works, but is a pretty slow process due to the low solubility.
Can i use MgSo4 instead of iron sulphate?
Didn't watched the video to its end?
mmm blue milk
Naw that little baby round bottom boiling flask!
Centrifuge.
Soo. I extracted a bunch of oxalic acid from my rhubarb 😀
I used 99%-isopropyl to fully destroy the plant cell membrains [little bioscience]
Then added 1/4 parts water. And began to salt in and salt out different levels..[another bioscience technique]
The weird oxalic [crystal/acid] structure is more soluble in alcohol than water..
so if i let that Ethel-oxalic-acid evaporate itself in a glass pan in the sun if needed ... is that not energy efficiant oxalic acid no distillation?? 😆
And wut the heck is in the white slime then..¿
Instead of leaving it out in the sun, have you tried exposing it to sources of UV radiation, such as “UV” LEDs, black lights, or sterilization lamps?
Now teach us how to extract oxalic acid from lemongrass
Rhubarb
I wonder have you found a novel way to make copper oxalate nano particles, accidental discoveries are the best.
Way too simple to be novel anything.
Ahaha, yeah 😂 I think sulfuric acid fumes are a good enough reason to do it in a fume hood.
Jaded family members of siblings who didn't marry the correct person, rejoice!
📺 👀👂
I hate it when the reaction is making weak ass ids.
1st
feels kind of similar to how mathematicians insist on finding new ways of computing pi every now and then :D
Or "yet another proof of the Pythagorean Theorem".
Hahaha indeed
At first I was like, what? No, this is completely different, this is about amateur access.
But computing pi in dumb ways is kind of like amateur math, doing it just for fun, so yeah, it kind of is the same thing
To reduce the iron(III), just drop a piece of steel wool into the iron sulfate solution.
but then you'll consume the sulfuric acid and lower your yield.
@@NurdRage I meant just the iron sulfate solution - before adding the oxalic acid.
Just my thought.
For all the iron consumed from steel wool, same amount of carbon will settle and, again, reduce sulfuric acid@@RiehlScience
@NurdRage For really hard to filter stuff, I vacuum filter through a 10cm buchner funnel and filter paper with diatomacious earth. I really helps to add a round piece of course fiberglass cloth under the filter paper (slightly smaller than the filter paper): it adds lots of flow channels and also supports the filter paper so it won't blow through the holes in the funnel. You can also use plastic screen if it's resistant to whatever you're filtering. Just pre-wet the filter paper using water+DME and keep running the DME water until it runs clear. Rinse the flask and you're ready to go. Sorry for the late edit. One more thing that can really help: Seal the top of the funnel with a flexible film, like Saran wrap or even film from a condom (unlubricated 😉). It will compress the stuff above the filter and improve throughput. Caution: 14.7 PSI on a 10cm filter is (if I did the math right) almost 180 pounds of force! Wear safety glasses! And as I also found out, erlenmeyer flasks with a side arm are not always vacuum rated! Fume hood window & safety glasses saved me from my own ignorance/stupidity.
@NurdRage this
Just don't filter and distil directly.
centrifuge might help
I was also playing around with the idea and found a way of making sulfuric acid from oxalic acid by heating oxalic acid together with regular magnesium sulfate epsom salt. when melted together it turned into a white sludgey liquid, which contained the sulfuric acid, which then could just be distilled off. Its also a really efficient method when making nitric acid, as potassium nitrate could just be mixed in with the dry oxalic acid and magnesium sulfate powder mixture. When heated the potassium nitrate reacted with the sulfuric acid and produced the nitric acid, which also could be distilled with ease.
i hope you'll show the same method for making nitric acid as well, since magnesium nitrate does work for making nitric acid and it's much easier to distill than sulfuric acid it's the best method for making nitric acid requiring no high temperatures or expensive sulfuric acid
I wonder if a centrifuge would work to separate copper oxalate
It would, but centrifuges of any decent capacity are outside the reach of amateur chemists.
Благодарим ви!
Thank you so much!
Engaging to combat YT censorship against Chemistry!
Best chemist on youtube
I have been watching your videos for so long it's ridiculous; I just have a quick comment on a possibility for an improvement in this one. Would there be any possibility of improvement in the copper method using a very fine Celite? Or rather more specifically, would you be able to separate an extra fine celite powder from the distillate and then be able to use the resulting solution?
Unfortunately instead of my original college degree being chemistry (like 7 years ago), I decided to go with Finance, so I truly don't know if there's any major issues with this thought, but if you or anyone else cares to respond, I would be thrilled to gain any knowledge y'all have about this process!! =)
As cheap as off grid solar is nowadays , I don't see any downside to using it for a continuous electrolytic chemical factory , for producing all sorts of useful stuff , like chloratea , perchloratea , acids , whatever .
You can have a shed or garage full of Pauling furnaces running 24 / 7 . Sure they are inefficient , but , once you have your PV setup , the rest is just childs play and it can run indefinitely courtesy of the sun , assuming you have enough storage capacity to run that long , and , enough panels to keep the storage bank topped off .
Maybe a wick siphon would work on your copper sulfate slurry. It works for fine particles in muddy water.
For when you really need H2SO4😂
You think that there is a way starting from sulfamic acid? It is strong, cheap and upon boiling hydrolyses to ammonium hydrosulfate…
All through this video, I was thinking about the big bag of copper sulphate out in the shed... so thanks for answering my inevitable question without me even having to ask it. :)
That odd moment when Barkeeper's Friend is for more than just cleaning up brightwork.
NurdRage is Da Boss !
One way to purify/concentrate Sulphuric is to boil the hell out of it until the fumes become thick.
Then add a splash of 3% H2O2 if it's brown.
Amazingly that actually works with no dramas, in my case at least.
someday i'm going to assemble all my separate sulfuric acid videos into a "complete guide" video. :)
@@NurdRage Question: do you ever get contact from the SM folks from back in Your days there?
I did, saying they missed me.
That's like saying they missed a hole in the head, which was a bit odd.
Not really, and its been so long that i'm sure more than half the people i once knew likely moved on. so even if i did come back there wouldn't be anyone to recognize me.
@@NurdRage Same here - there was a time, stuff moves on - Evolution i guess.
You made a Smart choice about the Video thing.
Legend !
Hmm...your username seems familiar, I think I came across a user "aga" in SM when I was researching the distillation of Ethanol.
Love from India ❤❤❤