What is Hell? | Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2020
- Taken from:
July 2019 Q&A: • July 2019 Q&A
With Paul Vanderklay - Angels, Demons and The City of God: • With Paul Vanderklay -...
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"The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight"
Boom
The same applies to the use of sacraments such as Cannabis or Ayahuasca.
The mystic due to sincerity and moderate usage benefits but the thrill seeker may lose themselves in a very unpleasant way.
@@thenowchurch6419
While my ideal would be for you to ALSO accept the Chalcedon Cannons, obviously, the Fact that ACTUAL Oriental Orthodox have remained Orthodox in every other way, even to the point of, de facto, (if not formally) accepting the other valid ecumenical councils that came after Chalcedon, and the fact that His Royal Majesty, King Haile Selassie 1st was a FLAWLESS adherent to that Faith of His Fathers, make my stomach churn in empathy to the trauma you Garveyists put him through, not to mention what a pain in the rear distraction it was during the political crisis in Ethiopia during that time. If I was him, I’d have memorized Acts 14:1-18, so to find solace that even the Disciples were tormented with a projected false divinity that he VEHEMENTLY denied, to the point of sending FILMED admonishments of himself TELLING EXPLICITLY that Orthodoxy is the True Faith; he was but a “Common King”, as King Alfred once said to the Theotokos. But even seeing his films were not enough to penetrate Garvey’s conditioning, well, with the wonderful exception of Bob Marley.
I’m not normally this blunt in my criticisms of heterodox ideas, but you Garveyists physically hurt him with a superstitious burden he did NOT need on top of his other duties, so that makes Me care less if I’m hurting your feelings when I say, For the Love of Christ, if you truly love the late King, BECOME ORTHODOX! And if you love Ethiopia, make yourself useful and help us fight China’s oppression!
@@eldermillennial8330 Please do further research before posting ignorant statements.
There is no such term as Garveyists, it is Garveyites and while many Rastafari are Garveyites we are much more focused on His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie 1 and His words of wisdom.
Marcus Garvey did not deem the Emperor divine, which I and I Rastafari have done.
It is quite presumptuous and foolish of you to assume that you know how these developments affected His Majesty.
He made no VEHEMENT denials of His Divinity nor did He make any film doing so as you falsely claim.
There is an interview on a train in Canada in which He makes a very diplomatic statement acknowledging Rastafarians and affirming His humanity and mortality.
This does not affect our Faith as we are seeing his Spirit as Divine not His physical body.
He has made explicit statements that there are mystics from all religions and that they are kinsmen. He never sought to make Orthodoxy an exclusive hub of True Faith.
Bob Marley, like many other Rastas was baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but never denied the Divinity of the Emperor.
There are dreadlocked Rastas to this day in the E.O.C. who hail the Emperor as the returned Christ.
What evidence do you have that Rastafari "physically hurt H.I.M.?
You are spouting nonsense.
Becoming Orthodox is not the key to salvation.
Accepting Iyesus Kristos as Savior is.
You are the one promoting superstitious beliefs.
Still I pray that you see the Light one day.
One of H.I.M. titles is Light of the World.
He is no common King but the King of Kings.
The same gospel that softens one heart hardens the next
We want to earn our salvation. Kids know god loves them. They live carefree. The kingdom of god belongs to them. They aren’t trying to earn acceptance. They receive good things without a question. They believe life is good and wonderful and beautiful and awesome.
Yes as yunz say ... still, there is the injunction to ... pick up ur cross & follow... and ... “ my yoke is easy ....” etc., & when these too are integrated (incorporated?) then as you all said ....
@BereanJenn unconsciously I would say.
Jonathan explained the Orthodox Christian reality of hell, very well here.
I cannot imagine anything else than fullness of love for everyone, ultimately, even the darkest of humanity, I hope, will be transfigured and opened by God's bruning love.
I can't get past verses that talk about 'Every Knee will bow, on heaven, and on earth, and under the earth", and "God is reconciling the whole world to himself through Christ" as well as "God will be all in all" . We see how God's love can turn any heart in this age, and Pray that it's true in the age to come.
Jonathan "Enter into your Love" Pageau
I want God to make me perfect.✝️❤️🙏
Throughout my protestant upbringing, Hell has been described as a place (rather than a state of being, which is never suggested), defined by "absence of God's presence", "the only place God isn't present”. This is totally opposite.
This is a part of essence-energy theology in Orthodoxy, found nowhere else in Christianity. A wonderful Orthodox distinctive.
"And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
Jesus is speaking about "heaven" and "hell" here, this clip helped me realize this.
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. God is love, and all who live in love live in god, and god lives in them.
Love in it's essence is spiritual fire.
-Seneca II
One thing to make sure for clarification is agape type of love
Hell could well be the reality experienced when God reveals His unrestrained self before sinners. If the best of us (at the time) like Isaiah were utterly in pain and undone before the presence of God, how much more pain will suffer those who are lost in their sins.
Revelation 14 tells us that “he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever”.
Interesting that you mention transparency. I was just working through an epiphany this week about the way light works, revealing a lot about the way God works. God is Light, and typically He is white Light, which is all colors combined. Whereas colors represent different themes (which also touches on the topic of iconography), and black represents darkness an absence of light.
I realized that the only way we can understand what white truly is, is by knowing what colors are. This means that you see an incomplete form of white, in fact a darker form of white, in order to learn about white. The way we learn about God is very similar. God is all in all, but the way we learn about Him is by experiencing his various traits in a smaller, darker way, in this fallen world. I think this also explains why God sometimes appears to be unloving, or unwise, or weak. It is not that He is lacking in these areas, but that His "Light" is being separated, as through a prism, in order to focus special attention to certain aspects of Him.
Running further with that metaphor, I considered that since light heats up darker surfaces, the only way to avoid being "heated" by light is to be a bright surface that reflects the light. The symbolism here translates to being holy in order not to be heated/burned, whilst being black would make you incredibly hot, and of course, as scripture repeatedly says, sinful people love the darkness, so that parallel seems to check out. Hell is described by Jesus as both "fire" and "darkness". Following the analogy (and I realize this part is speculation), that may correspond to those who are darkened by their sin being forced to choose/alternate between burning in the Light of God or suffering in the darkness of sin. Neither will bring joy.
I hadn't considered transparency yet, but it appears to portray a very similar concept of hell. I had thought of the solution being bright by "reflecting" God's Light, but maybe transparency (which I assume corresponds to self-denial) might be the better approach. I'm not sure.
"Hell" is the love of God wrongly received, like how one who hates responds to the one who loves them anyway. Maybe I'm wrong, but the more I think about it, that's why if it is true as the Bible says that God is love, that love never fails, that God's anger burns for a moment, but his unchanging love endures forever, that it is the will of God that nobody should perish, that all that will remain is faith, hope and love, and that nothing is impossible with God, more and more I can't help but conclude that the "hell" if God's love only "burns" so long as you let it. You can resist as long as you like because love does not coerce one to love in return, but I don't think that finite man can resist infinite love forever. If nothing is impossible witu God, I don't believe "no hope" is in God's vocabulary, that there is such a thing as there is no hope for someone. That would seem to imply that the will of man is greater than the will of God.
All wonderful points. What's your consideration that hell is only a symbolic place? For example those suffering from alcoholism or drug addiction or a host of other addictions are suffering in their own sort of hell in a way. But would you consider that there is no hell in the afterlife? This is what I have been considering.
The Earth is Hell in the future. It gets hit by an asteroid and pushed toward the sun. Isaiah 13:13, 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 9.
@@archangel_metatron uh no 👎
@@larryjake7783 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
@@larryjake7783 it's quite clear.
The idea of the fire representing the presence of God ties interestingly into aspects of the Old Testament where Israelites feared seeing the face of God because it would burn them to nothingness. Additionally, from the perspective of death being a function of disorder, fire is a plasma. Plasma is the state of matter in which the particles are at their most chaotic, agitated and disorganized. Fun thoughts!
0:07 Hades
2:06 Letting Go of Sin makes Fire a Deifying Fire
4:16 Pentecost, Full Presence of God
Pageau is such a mind! Always find the best answers here
I'm curious to hear Johnathan's views on the Orthodox view of Universal Salvation. As I understand it's the minority opinion but some very great Saints have taught it
Should us Orthodox view Hell as a place of painful therapy? A place where one goes to have their soul be transformed unwillingly, so that they may enter God's kingdom?
What about Annihilationism? Is hell maybe the process of experiencing God's love burning their soul away into nothingness becuase they can't receive it?
Personally I find it very difficult to believe in eternal torment. The way I see it either annihilationism is true, or universal salvation is true. Eternal torment feels like the antithesis of what Christ came to do
I have felt the same way - torture serves no purpose. Correction, repair, burning away deadwood - finding out that whatever "you" are, it's whatever survives each stage of development... This seems to be Christ's design from the beginning for Creation.
Question is, what is more merciful if the souls in hell actually want to exist instead of not exist.
We know time is different in the Heavenly world than it is for earthly life. So "eternal" may be misunderstood.
I am reminded of black holes within which, physicists say, space-time is completely collapsed. Is that dimensionless, timeless pit eternal, or is it in some sense just frozen.? No tick-tock there.
;
@@mondopinion3777 the phrase 'eternal hell' is not to be found anywhere in the greek text.
@@Ben-Y I believe the term in Revelations is "eternal torment."
Man I've had this intuition for a bit now but had no clue how to say it, thanks.
"Our God is a consuming fire" To those who love God it's Heavens hearth fire, to those who do not love God it burns like Hell.
Yes! this is exactly how I thought Hell is like
Had an Orthodox guy try to convince me (on Facebook) that this paradigm precludes the western understanding that Hell is an eternal separation from God. Couldn't tease out for him the way that both perspectives are compatible and consistent, which are obvious from what is said here.
In Church last night, we were talking about whether Jews who didn't accept Christ could be "Saved." It was uncomfortable. I'm still not completely certain what it means to be saved or to go to "Hell." I like the metaphysical dance we do thinking "Symbolically" and I see the medicine as being the medicine. I don't like the fact that in *Every Christian Denomination I've Ever Visited* at some point I've heard folks start to talk about (and I'm deliberately stating this in its gruffest form for effect) "we're saved and they're not."
yeahh
it's the Institutions :'
"i am of paul i am of apollos"
"That All Shall be Saved" is a pretty thorough explanation of universalism and sealed my understanding of it
Why does that make you uncomfortable?
To be sure, there are ways in which that mindset can go awry. It is also not always true, for the Lord sees the true hearts of men better than they see even their own. Just because you believe yourself to be saved does not make it true.
But in the majority of cases, I suspect, it is the simple truth, or close enough to it. Those who love God, accept his son's self sacrifice, and most importantly, act out (or participate in) that love in their life will be saved. That is God's promise, and the entire Bible makes it very clear that not all will be saved, and that is due to their own arrogance and pride.
Did Jesus only die for Christians?
@@mattr.1887 Depends what you mean by "Christian".
Jesus died for everyone who would, in the deepest depths of their heart, accept Him as their savior by their own death and rebirth in his image. Those people are who I would refer to as "Christians", so I would answer yes.
But if your definition of "Christians" are people who follow all the religious rules, go to church many times a week, and think much better of themselves for it, then no. Not that people like that can't be saved, but that isn't what the Bible says will save anyone.
"Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward." -Matthew 6: 1-2
Who can say? It reminds me of this story of St. Silouan of Mount Athos, that he was speaking with a hermit who insisted with satisfaction that "God will burn all the atheists with everlasting fire!"
St. Silouan asked him, "Say you are in heaven and you look down and see someone burning in hellfire? Would you be happy?"
The other hermit replied, "It can't be helped. It's their own fault!"
St. Silouan then said, sorrowfully, "Love could not bear that. We must pray for all."
Not to mention, regardless of the eternal fate of those Jews who rejected Christ, their lineages live on, ever presenting the opportunity for reunion with the triune God. In my sister's OCF group, they have a number of converts, one of whom is Jewish. Glory to God!
Great content!
i believe an eternal ending,an external,all powerful judge is a requirement for human existence. it is the framework in which we operate. otherwise our lives,which are essentially narrative-driven,
would be formless,open,without impulse. we need this separation between "failure" and "success",as much as we need the cardinal directions to orient ourselfes in existence.
Yes, but the definition of success must be based on the principle of universality, the very nature of God and not the whims of any individual.
@@thenowchurch6419, I think this is where Jesus comes into play as the perfect impression of God in human form. He is the one who holds the true definition and proper judgement. That being said, to be clear, I don't think Jesus will be standing there and sending the fire forth to some and not others. He said that "all will be sprinkled with fire". I think the fire comes, and Jesus judges the products of that purifying and refining flame. Not in some hateful personal sense, but rather in a nearly clinical sense...Like identifying a malfunctioning tool and a properly functioning one.
@@terrencemedders1867 As a general overview, I believe that is correct.
Thank God for Pageau
Wonderful explanation!
2:45 PERFECT. THANK YOU. HELL IS A PLACE NONE WANTS TO GO TO BUT EVERYBODY FINDS THEMSELVES IN; FROM TIME TO TIME.
interesting concept, so if i understand, heaven vs hell is a result of each person's choice. if we accept the Lord's love, that burning desire to be with God will burn away our sins and we look forward to everlasting peace and happiness. But if we repudiate and refuse the Lord, that same divine fire feels like hot coals as we resist God's love. I like the explanation as it can tie together hell, purgatory and heaven. The choice from our free will determines where we end up on that continuam.
So if Heaven and Hell are existential states of how we respond to Gods love in the current life. What happens in the afterlife in Eastern Orthodoxy??
I wish these videos had a glossary for those who didn’t study theology or philosophy. I took philosophy at 8 AM fifty years ago, but don’t remember Plato Descartes using terms like phenomenology or causality. Escacatiology I can’t spell.
Brilliant!
““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Matt. 25:41
Verses like these are so interesting. Since the eternal fire (which really is just the presence of God) is ultimately the fire that God prepares within Himself to burn away everything that is not of love’s kind, it is also simultaneously that state of fragmentation where the soul experiences alienation and isolation; which seems to be expressed in the “Depart from Me…” as God (you could say) casts everything of spiritual delusion into utter oblivion. Maybe it’s as if God casts those who contradict Him away from a particular manifestation of His presence into another manifestation of His presence altogether. How peculiar🤔
All that being said, if one interprets Scripture rightly, the eternal fire cannot be an objective state of ontological separation from God, if it indeed represents the fiery presence of God in the ultimate sense. Western Evangelicals really need to contemplate this within themselves. The estrangement aspect of hell pertains more to the existential experience of the individual.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction *from* (coming from?) the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
God bless you.
The dove descending breaks the air
With flame of incandescent terror
Of which the tongues declare
The one dischage from sin and error.
The only hope, or else despair
Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-
To be redeemed from fire by fire.
Who then devised the torment? Love.
Love is the unfamiliar Name
Behind the hands that wove
The intolerable shirt of flame
Which human power cannot remove.
We only live, only suspire
Consumed by either fire or fire.
From Little Gidding by T.S. Eliot.
5:06 About responding with pure love to the hate we have real historical evidence of that. In 1942 nazi murderer in a camp Jasenovac went mad after killing his last victim who responded with kindness to his torture. That was discovered by his own testimony "… I noticed an elderly peasant standing and peacefully and calmly watching me slaughter my victims and them dying in the greatest pain. That look of his shook me: in the midst of the greatest ecstasy I suddenly froze and for some time couldn’t make a single move. And then I walked up to him and found out that he was some Vukasin [Mandrapa] from the village of Klepci near Capljina whose whole family had been killed, and who was sent to Jasenovac after having worked in the forests. He spoke this with incomprehensible peace which affected me more than the terrible cries around us. All at once, I felt the wish to disrupt his peace with the most brutal torturing and, through his suffering, to restore my ecstasy and continue to enjoy the inflicting of pain." This was his last murder, he couldn't do that anymore.
Im gonna report this. I dont think these types of stories should be banned entirely (actually, maybe they should) but they certainly should be banned of YT comment sections. At least, put a disclaimer that you are gonna write one of the most disturbing things ever uttered on this damned Earth. You sob.
@@cacadordeliberalprogressis1500 You have the right to report if you want. Since the topic was hell, I remembered this clear example of the real hell on Earth from the recent history of my nation. Because I heard this story long ago I overlooked it could be disturbing, but I feel it should be known. Like we all should know about the holocaust. Sorry for disturbing you, I hope you'll have a peaceful day.
@@cacadordeliberalprogressis1500 You're making a big mistake.
I appreciated your story and found it fascinating. There is a section in Revelation that talks about the power of our testimonies having some good or positive effect. I'm appreciative for this testimony you shared with me
@@mini1gerbel Thank you, I'm glad you find this testimony fascinating. Btw Vukašin Mandrapa is now a saint, and a martyr of the Serbian Orthodox Church canonized as Saint Vukašin of Klepci.
Is greek orthodox just dramatically more sensible then other denominations or are you just better at explaining?
It’s Orthodox
@@franciscovasquez9417 yeah, it seems like orthodox is kind of like the Christian locus and then the other denominations use it as a theological means to different ends.
The mystics, the scholars who understand that reason is subservient to mysticism (like Aquinas), and the Church Father's make sense. Jonathan is well studied in their works, in some sense, they're speaking through him.
Not just Greek Orthodox, no.
Not Greek Orthodox exclusively, but Orthodoxy as a whole is just the far superior version of Christianity
"The Fire of Hell is the Fire of Pentecost
Hell is the Fullness of the Presence of God in All Things
For those who have opened themselves up to the Grace of God, that Grace transfigures
For those who have closed themselves off, that fire burns them."
I can roll with this.
You confirmed my views on hell and formulated them to to me since I couldn't myself.
We all chose to be here. We're gonna be fine.
The Orthodox view of Hell is the most profound view that I've heard of.
And the most terrifying right, because it's so convincing and sounds so logically? At the same time for me it let's me know even more that i'm going to need Jesus to cover me in the presence of God because there is probably a whole lot left that is going the be burned.
in some NDE church people that felt sinful denied the mercy of God, which wow that is pretty prideful to not want help from infinite love.
Gehenna, literally translated as "Valley of Hinnom", is a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire. Thereafter, it was deemed to be cursed (Book of Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2-6). It was also used as a refuse dump in the time of Christ where the indigent would be incinerated. How do you “square” the history of the words used by Christ and the Apostle John with the view you hold?
The Old Testament, from the Song of Moses to the last of the Prophets all points to that time period of the Messiah, which God Almighty Incarnating as a man, chose to reveal Himself to mankind, came as the Lord Jesus Christ, wherein time was split for our benefit, and 12 fisherman fulfilling Israel as the light to the Gentiles, conquered the pagan Roman empire through love of ones neighbors and joyful martyrdom. This eventually led into the longest empire in history, of 1,000 years, which the west would like to ignore - believing history began in the 17th century. This has never been repeated in history - ever - every "edge case" in history points to Orthodox Christianity.
The slow revelation of His Word to man of what we can bear at that point in time, for a particular people at that state and time - to your 'history of words' question.
The Old Testament is confounding without Christ, which fulfills all prophets and prophecies of 5,000 years of the Hebrews worship of the Almighty - God's revelation to man is for our benefit, and the slow revelation for what we can bear - all of what He says is for our benefit, and for what we can bear.
Many of the old people of the Almighty rejected the Messiah, and so Daniel was fulfilled and Christs Word came true with the Romans destroying the old Tabernacle worship - though this continues in Christian Orthodox, the old Hebrew Law of sacrifice has been over since He incarnated. The Misna created a new theology in 300AD after the rebuild attempt of temple was destroyed - again by God for their own repentance.
"Some of the Kings of Judah" - idol worship eventually leads to child sacrifice - just like today for "young blood" stem cells and harvesting live organs for cosmetics, or dark Africa and voodoo, or the "evil god" hindus who do not care for others suffering.
Old Israel is a model of every persons personal journey with God - fleeing to God, and fleeing away from Him.
@@EO-John9540 The millions upon millions of children sacrificed each year in the west....
Nonhuman influence on human reality is best explained through symbols
I was just thinking about this, then boom, on my recommend list.
My daughter bugs me with these questions regularly. I love it. bahaha!
Heck yeah,, been there , done that …stood in my righteousness, and rightly so , got mad at God for even putting me in such a position ..(cause like a good Father , he’d always protected me so) but ( he really did serve up , justice beyond even my idea of what i thought fair …i forgot the question …
This explanation is just a well watered-down interpretation the scriptural concept of Gehenna, much different than what the ancients had in mind when they wrote them. Doing such only gives more credence to the hearer to take an evolutionary point of view, in which the fathers, theologians, & various leaders of the church adapt & adjust The Narrative to the liking, palate, and utility of the society in which they teach & live.
I don't know if this is on the right track but it sort of sounds like eternity is heaven and hell in the same place by your description...just experienced from different perspectives. As a thought experiment, imagine a perfect heaven as a sinner would enter it (imagining for the purpose of the thought that this was possible). If he was a murderer, he could not kill where there is no death. As a thief he could not steal when there is no scarcity, he could not envy that which is communal, he could not be selfish where the self is experienced through the lens of shared experience.
Perhaps I have mischaracterized the concept? I don't think it works in accordance with certain verses such as the description of the rich man and Lazarus where they are separated by a gulf that cannot be crossed. Or the separation of the sheep and goats in the judgment. Why separate them in court like fashion if they remain together and are only separated by they way they experience the same things?
Its weird because on the one hand I agree with everything you said and it does provide clarity, but the way the scriptures read...I feel like there is still something missing in the final analysis. There does seem to be an unexplainable finality in the judgment as well as a true separation from the paradise which is received by believers in Christ.
2:21 Like the bush in Exodus.
Here.
So what happens when you die with the sin, will you remain in a sinfull state forever, that being the equivalent of being in an eternal hell, or do you eventually overcome it and let go of sin in another lifetime, so you always have a chance to get to a better place, but it will take longer.
As I understand it, the fire as the glory of God is a full and complete revelation of all.
Therefore there is no more revelation or growth in understanding/knowledge (prophecy, tongues, knowledge come to an end when the perfect comes). And so those who reject God and His love reject it all ways/time and those who receive His love never reject it.
Not sure if there's an understanding of a last chance at the final resurrection and the final revelation, yet it seems to be the understanding that ones place regarding God's love is permanent at the new creation.
That being said, I'm not of the Eastern Orthodox but of the Lutheran tradition (western Christians which apparently agree with much of EO christology and soteriology, yet I'm still learning)
@@j.g.4942 Thank you for your input. I know I might not be scripturally correct, but I think of a sort of spiritual evolution, where in you eternal existence you carry on to the next life which will be depended on how you lived your life, i.e. regarding your sin. That means if you lived with the love of Christ, the next life will be more heavenly and so it continues until you've become a perfect being with God. The opposite of that is if you live your life in ignorance of the love of Christ that will carry over to the next life which will be more hell-bound. In conclusion you always get a chance but it remains up to you where you end up and for how many lifetimes you remain in a certain state.
It's hard to say. But there seems to be whispers in the Orthodox circles I'm apart of that Christ has gone down into Hell to make the decision cut and dry for all those who end up there. Hell seems to be chosen indefinitely by those unwilling to accept the Love of God.
@@anothercat1300 Yeah, David Bentley Hart, an Orthodox (somewhat controversial, according to some) theologian has written a great deal about the final restoration and universalism. His book That All Shall Be Saved is interesting. I find it immensenly hard not to believe in universalism. The idea that my loving grandfather who loved me so deeply and helped open my heart for others is condemned to hell because he didn't openly profess some propositional knowledge about Christ's soverignity is utterly incomprehensible (long sentence, sorry).
@@MrSofuskroghlarsenI've never heard of David Bentley Hart. But Christianity is supposed to be the Universal Religion. As in it's not meant to destroy culture but preserve it.
That's how Russia was able to revive it's culture after decades of Communism. Or how the Inuit culture was preserved and has it's own branch of Orthodoxy. Or how the Celts are able to rediscover their traditions or how Roman culture was preserved in Constantinople etc.
I'm currently learning about Ethiopian Orthodoxy. It's one of the most well preserved cultures in the world going back to the time of Moses. They have libraries of traditions from thousands of tribes across sub Saharan Africa. They have some interesting saints too. One who was a cannibal who was saved for giving water to someone who was praying for help, and another who killed himself to demonstrate to someone Christ's sacrifice.
The way the Orthodox view God, Hell and all of that stuff is very different. To the point that it also solves the problems the Western conceptualization creates.
From what I can tell, Hades is the cemetery or grave. Hell is the place of fire.
I've made that same unlikely connection between the fires of hell and Pentecost, and understand the fire to be symbolic of judgment, not punishment. Judgment (the deciding of good and evil) belongs to God alone. The caution from the beginning is that judgment in the hands of God's "image and likeness" must be used with such respect, or it will easily overwhelm.
Yes, a testing/proving fire just as in a forge.
The Orthodox reality of hell is far more terrifying than Dante's fiction
Right, let's pray Jesus will cover us when we enter into the presence of God because i do know for sure i'm going to need that.
Hell was not created. Evil was not created.
So basically The End of Evangelion movie where everyone experiences happiness/fear before popping into LCL goo and melding into the apocalypse.
lmao
Fire purifies evil souls, maybe?
Is not that fire of God also a form of purgatory?
One of the words for hell in the Quran is Jahannam which is phonetically very close to Gehinnom. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 🙏
Arabic is a Semitic language, so yeah, it's basically the exact same word
What about the narrow gate which leads to life being hard and few entering? I think it would be good to not delude ourselves into thinking we have accepted God's love when in fact we don't. Jesus and John's criteria of whether we love and have been loved is if we keep God's commandments. So if your not doing what Jesus taught, how can you say you love Him? We can't live a sinful life and then think we aren't going to hell just because we accept God's love. You will have to pay for what you did wrong in this lifetime. This view of hell can really mislead many into hell as it doesn't do anything to deter one from going down the path of perdition nor does it have any power to wake one up from slumber which makes one not care about salvation. You could think for now I'm going to live my way and when I see God i'll just receive his love, he's a cool guy anyways but for now I need to maximize my pleasure then on judgment day i'll maximize my pleasure there too by accepting his love.
I think the Catholic view on hell is correct. The second death is separation from God. The cause of the fire is because they know He still loves them but they can't receive His love due to the separation, the distance creates wrath.
Technically God will be "present" in hell because He is omnipresent - He cannot not be present. Yet they won't be able to see Him, as the blessed see Him. The separation is more of a separation in the soul, a separation which we create now due to mortal sin, but because He is made manifest to us at the judgement, the gravity of that separation will be felt.
I think you misunderstand what it means to be in Gods presence. If you ignore him and maximise your pleasure now and keep living in sin and are just calling upon Christs name because your think it will save you, do you think God will not notice this? He will burn you with his Holy presence and there will be no way for you to justify your actions. If you do really follow Christ the holy ghost will prepare you in this life as much as possible. I think Jonathan is calling it as it is. its just hard to understand what it means to be in Gods presence. And it's hard for us christians to understand that there will be people who will never accept Jesus even when in the presence of a Holy God and they will by his wrath burn for eternity and it will be because of their own will.
It’s probably best to just keep the image and metaphor Christ gave us as being in a fire and not try to go beyond the image and try to explain the reality. Christ gave us the image for a reason. Probably because we don’t understand the spiritual reality.
We manifest hell whenever we stray too far from the straight and narrow path. Its not a metaphysical or mystical thing, it is right here everyday, either around us or inside our own minds.
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:15 NKJV. Hell is foundational to the gospel. The rich man and Lazarus wasn't a parable and Hell is the wrath and fury of Almighty God. He is angry with the wicked every day say's the psalmist. We don't like to think that a just and Holy God could be angry with unregenerate man. This is the reality that can't be explained away.
How does this relate to God's wrath?
If you keep on sinning than you will experience God's wrath for eternity. We fall short in every way that is why we need Christ Jesus to cover for us. I don't see an issue with God's wrath, he is exercising his wrath by burning those who sin with His holy presence. And because we will never be able to pay for our sins and will never be Holy we need Jesus. Am i missing something?
And if a man loves another man… they spend eternity in hell?
Why were cosmic sewer plants invented
jesus said hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. he called it everlasting fire.
This is the Fringe opinion of Hell. It is not Orthodox teaching. This view of Hell is a modern universal salvation style teaching influenced by Protestant thoughts
Sounds like chapter 11 in bhagavad gita where krishna reveals his true form to arjuna
What do you mean by “is” - some j pageau type shit
While Hell certainly represents that which is lost, decayed, forgotten, ruined, corrupted, jumbled like some puzzle, cryptic, poisoned, destructive, tiny, microscopic, parasitic, "it" is that which is Incomprehensible (its why we say the devils in the details & where the phrase "god works in mysterious ways") demons, monsters, leeches, bugs, chaos, sin, apocryphal...
all of these "things" is not death.
For death is an obstacle, representing the end of a cycle, that which is a concrete wall, a barrier, a fear, the slaves, workers & laborers in this hierarchy. The slime & cockroaches are beneath all that which is concrete, thats why hell is found underneath in the underworld, the subconscious, unknown, psychotic world, true hell are the souls trapped in the bodies of bees 🐝 where they mindlessly toil & live in these catacombs in a hexagonal shape, 6 sides just like the image in your video. 😏 This matrix is Death, ie. A prison or obstacle which we must break free from this "ignorance" that the rulers of the "dark" or "fallen" world have enchanted by the very nature of that which is enclosed, housed, & contained such as a body, the material, the real hard concrete reality of existence. This is why Satan & his children were a subsequent consequence without this obstacle life would not be possible. You can't have knowledge & speech without the antonyms of ignorance & silence, the breath & inhaling, the talking vs the listening. These half measures need each other in this cyclical puzzle of which we are all actors on this tragic play.
The key has always been in the word, and when you discover the paradox that is "you", freedom, individuality, motion, & god, this cognitive dissonance is what is responsible for such circular logic to take place in the "beginning" of the cosmos
God intended hell for Lucifer and the fallen angels, and not for humans. Billy Graham
The word "hell" is from the Vikings (Norse) cosmology as it refers to the roots of the Tree Yggdrasil
Hell is second class purgatory
Ones you purified in hell them you go to purgatory then heaven
What if it’s like that
Bad translation
Bart Ehrman's Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife explains the origin of these beliefs, which I think arose around the same time as apocalyptic thought in Judaism, when the last books of the Jewish scriptures were written, e.g. Daniel, in the early centuries BCE. The Jewish scriptures don't generally have a concept of a final judgement and related destination of heaven or hell. Rather, Sheol was where all people ended up after death. It therefore seems likely (at least to me) that heaven & hell are a product of the imagination of humans.
The bible teaches both Heaven and Hell.
Reality lays itself out into hierarchies and so I imagine establishing the afterlife in the same hierarchical manner is only natural.
Realities also have points of origin within human imagination. This is the naturalist bias I had when I was an atheist scientist - before I actually encountered God. I don't expect that to convince you or anything - it wouldn't have me - but do bear it in mind going forward. Test to see if its real, regardless.
If you want to know truth read the words God, that he gave us in his word. Hell is separation from God/anything good. Where there’s weeping and gnashing of teeth. And it’s eternal. There’s no conversion in the grave. Jesus said Today is the day of salvation! I am the way the life and the truth no man comes to the father except through me. Get in the word of God and find truth. Don’t depend on man’s knowledge rather than Gods.
Hell is a hot fairy-tale.
Hell is a real place and real people will go there if they don’t accept Christ. Christ spoke about a real hell often -one example is :
Matthew 10:28
[28] And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The word hell in that verse is “Gehenna” (loaded with missing context in our modern churches) and he also says “can” and not “will.”
I promise you, as someone who has researched this topic for the past decade, it’s not so black and white.
Learn to state your beliefs Johnathan clearly... Study your answers before hand. To much studderin around the subject....
I happen to enjoy his thinking and pattern of speaking, particularly when he’s in dialogue with another of differing tradition He’s being gracious and charitable as he formulates an answer. Relevance realization comes to mind. Dialogos. Sounds like you need the kind of borders he does not...
To the contrary, he is very succinct and well articulated. Whereas you are not clearminded.