How Scythian Bow was used for War
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2024
- These were the first reflex deflex recurves know in bowmaking history. This video focuses on the shape profile and analysis of its pros and cons in context of horseback archery. This is not a video about bowmaking or structural analysis of these composite bows.
The Scythians were primarily cavalry fighters. They rode into battle and fought on horseback. Herodotus describes their tactics when fighting the Persian army led by Darius the Great. They used traditional scorched earth tactics and retreated before the large Persian army, successive leading the Persians through each of their subject states so that their own lands were not ravaged. After various taunts directed at the Persians, they informed Darius that they would stand and fight if the tombs of their ancestors were desecrated. This was the last straw for the Great King [xxiv], who turned around and went home. Scythian horse archers had consistently prevented the Persian army from foraging and had left Darius little choice.
This was a tale of frustration from the Persian point of view. The Scythians effectively contained the largest army of the Middle East and actually used it to do their own dirty work by punishing their less enthusiastic allies. Lest we underestimate the Persians, remember that they transported this large army from Persia through Anatolia, across the Bosphorus on a bridge of boats, through Thrace and onto the steppe lands of Eurasia. The logistical skills, with which they consistently underpinned their great military expeditions, are really remarkable. However, they were outmanoeuvred by the Scythians and confined by their swarms of horse archers.
Against a smaller army, the Scythians could be much more aggressive and use their weapons more directly. In later years, they were a thorn in the side for Macedonia and it took Alexander the Great to defeat their king, Ateas. This combination of effective archery and speed of manoeuvre led to an arms race on the steppe. Armour became popular and the Scythians themselves eventually became victims of their more heavily armoured relatives, the Sarmatians
Warlike horse nomads are first mentioned in the West in Assyrian documents in the eighth century BCE. These Cimmerians were eventually over thrown by the tribes the Greeks called Scythians. They raided extensively in the Near East and eventually allied with the Medes of western Iran to destroy the Assyrian kingdom. According to the ancient historian, Herodotus [ix], the Medes then murdered the Scythian leaders at a banquet and drove their forces out of the Middle East. The Scythians retreated to the Pontic steppe through the Caucasus.
From ATARN
We can list a number of features that can used to characterize a Scythian bow:
It is very short.
It has recurved tips.
It has a setback centre section.
The limbs are thick in proportion to their width.
It is usually carried in a gorytos.
It is primarily a cavalry weapon.
0:00 Intro
5:43 Warfare Analysis
12:11 Shooting - Наука та технологія
Hey man, don't apologise for the javelin content, it was good!
just being canadian eh
@HistoricalArchery There is very few channels that show historical javelins, its all about the Olympic sport only.
It’s basically a giant arrow
I agree I like javalin and sling stuff
The kangaroo hopping (i know its to simulate shooting from horseback) was god tier😂
I need to add that to my practice to get in some much needed leg work.
The reason why I don’t use real horn bows is then my budget per video would be 2000$ each. Therefore the Fiberglass reproduction as a prop is my approach for presentation while communicating the differences, similar to how a teacher would lecture these in class.
I don’t like the pay to win approach for UA-cam. Your not talking about the structural design anyways nor are you testing the performance so why does it matter if it’s Fiberglass
We love your content man. Keep doin you boo
More like this!
They are not just props. They are in many ways superior to the originals.
It's Scythian not Skithean.
Thanks Jack, big fan of the Skythian bow. There's a big difference between a natural composite bow at rest unbraced & a modern fibreglass bow. Fibreglass requires less stress to deliver the power & cast, wheras horn/sinew takes more bending to deliver, hence some unbraced natural composite bows having their limb tips in a near complete circle. Loved your bouncing approximation to the movement to a galloping horse as you shot. The famous Kassai Lajos wrote in his book on mounted archery that he always took the shot at the highest point of the horses stride, momentarily airbourne, if I understood correctly.
I'd also doubt the draw weight was as low as you suggest. These are life long archer warriors constantly training or fighting & defending herds from maruders & predators, as well as hunting. Very hard physical life. With lower draw lengths the energy delivered into the arrow is less than the same draw weight at longer draw lengths; so stronger bows would be needed to make them militarily effective. Arrows were lighter & thinner than many, from surviving arrowheads. Often barbed & having a hole for poison, which enemies record being used against them. They would be effective against most enemies as armour was limited mainly to nobility or fairly limited in coverage-usually just the torso.
"Amazons" may be a product of both Skythian & Sarmatians raising daughters as well as sons to be warriors, at least until married.
The Parthians as well as the Medes & Persians were of similar Indo-Persian mounted nomad origons as the Skythians, Sarmatians, etc.
I think light and heavy bows are all relative. but the exact number is difficult to say. i still stand by my words that i dont think the average horse archer shot 140lb, the greeks would of wrote about that if it was the case. we know how much the greeks like to write things down
Shorter bows seem to deliver faster arrow speeds at the same draw weights as longer bows. See tests of Korean bows of the same design but different size and draw length. I think it was Combat Archery Switzerland that did those tests... More time pushing the arrow probably does not make up for the lower efficiency of the longer bows.
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0that’s correct. Shorter bows are usually faster
Nerdy deep dives are great. Scythian bows served Scythians needs very well. Tools evolve in spurts as environmental factors change. Culture is the wildcard as it can enshrine (or eshew) designs that would ordinarily evolve to replace them. I'll bet the Greeks were envious of the elegant design.
they copied it lol
Awesome! Especially love seeing the bow in action with the different styles and draws at the end. Thanks as always for knowledge!
Glad you like it! Is the volume too loud btw
@@HistoricalWeapons wasn't too loud on my device! 👍
thank you for this video, really appreciate the historical background on these bows.
you are the bow bro and i appreciate you
Great video. Love all the build and history details.
Glad you enjoyed it let me know what to improve as such topic is very niche
Is the volume too loud btw
I thought the volume was great. Nothing to add, loved the tactics and the insight that herding an army is similar to herding livestock.
your shooting techniques with multiple arrow holds and both sides of the riser are a joy to watch
Definitely better show with the history and content
Context meant
I like how jacked you are with wings
The Scythian bows have the same curves as the animals they worshiped, a kind of buffalo or cow-type animal. Those curves are all over their crafts and artworks and are the natural curves of the horns of that animal that I cannot remember the name of right now...
It's Siberian ibex and mouflon
They wouldn’t have changed their bows just for this, they would have used what’s effective.
@@oxytocin1989 they probably worshiped them because they used there horns for there bows and it is the easiest shape to make a bow from ibex horn since it doesnt take much reshaping and heat bending the horn to make it
its also a more efficient design for delivering power from a bow arm as it dosent have the bulky siahs of later versions that take a lot of power out of the arm to move. its also thinner which increases power (but also hand shock)
if u look at what gives speed and power in a bow it dose it better(although it wasnt tapered like a proper old one which makes arms move faster) than most of the bows that came after it, the hand is set back from the arms which increases power but dose increase hand shock, then it has a reflex/deflex to give you a longer bow with a effectivley shorter working arm for it to return to rest state faster
in a poundage of a war bow it would be a bow that requires a bowmans grip to be sure but it would be more powerful/faster than most alternative designs ive seen using the same materials
@@masonmp1889 maybe but no 2 horns are the same u have to tiller every bow. & once youve boiled it for use the horn is soft and pliable like a rubber mat
the shape is remarkably efficient for speed/power, it would have jumped a lot in hand though every choice on that bow from thin arms to hand being set back from arms to the small working siahs takes the path of power/speed at the cost of hand shock, ud want a strong grip and probably to use one of the flick after firing styles if u had 1 in warbow poundages
ive seen that archery technique in greek artwork
I've always found it interesting while one of the earliest, also one of the more complex in construction and harder to make. If there were earlier simpler transitions to it we have not found them. If you want/need a short and quick bow you can full draw it's a good way to skin that cat, as are others.
I think we are greatly ignoring the Bronze Age Egypt/Hittite/Babylonian/Assyrian design that possibly lasted as long or even longer than written history siyah bows
Not only the Amazons were based on the horsearchers of scytia, as they unlike the greeks actually had female warriors, but even more so the centaurs
True
Thanks for the video. Toward the end, when you were demonstrating various shooting styles, you used what looked like some sort of reverse thumb draw. Is this a historical draw or did you improvise?
It’s from Greek pottery fighting along with a hoplite. It’s basically a finger draw but reversed. Also another Greek statue depict a thumb draw but locked with middle finger Instead
I’ll make video focused on these techniques when I finish making my bronze Greek arrows
Great shooting at the end👌🎯❤🇺🇸
37 pound? I thought you only shot 100+.
It’s a prop for talking about these bows
@@HistoricalWeapons lol
Keep it
Kind of a shame you didn't wait until next Valentine's day to make this vid. Still great vid, though, thanks!
that thumbnail
Great content, excellent job
I would like to argue the low drawweight topic and draw attention to the article of Mike Loades on scytian bows on the site Histoyhit. When he mentions drawweight he references reproductions after the Yanghai cemetery, Xinjiang surviving examples. Those are said to be from 45 to 55 kilogramms ( that is 99 to 121 pounds) in drawweight. Now it is hard to say that bows in the east and the bows that the greeks encounterd where identical in bildt quality. But who knows?
That’s a burial bow. Id bury a heavy bow too cuz it’s legendary
@AnkunFang, for that time, it's very heavy
if the bows were 100lbs+ then why is it that the romans and greeks rare mention their power against their heavy infantry? why did battle of carrhae take many days? it makes no sense. we have done testing where these bows can clearly penetrate shields sufficient to still kill the user behind at unarmored gaps like face and neck and arms
@@HistoricalWeapons my logic is somewhat reversed. If the bows where (as you assume) in the 50-60 pound range and therefore sub-optimal against armour, why would the scytians/ phartians/ whoever used them, stick to using them for centuries? Would it not be logical to adopt a higher drawweight against shields and armour? Or to use other weapons more against heavier opponents? Now my guess is that the an average bow would be in the 80-90 pound range. And of course there where those 100+ pound bows witch the replicas are made of. It may be my bias towards the scytian culture ( it is my heritage after all) but the 60-ish part sounded to me as a half serious joke. Don't get me wrong, I like the video. That is why I wish, there would be a test like the Tod Cutler arrows vs. armour but with every single type of bow arrow and armour that could possibly and theoreticaly ever face each other in history...that would be awesome.
@@kolosihasz8260 hi kolosihasz the Parthians and scythians mostly fought cavalry and most horses are unarmored except cataphracts, where accuracy to shoot gaps is more important than heavy bows. Even the heaviest bows have been tested and cannot penetrate lamellar armor deep enough to kill so accuracy is more important while the majority of horse archers were fighting other horse archers without armor, where a 50-80lb is perfect . against Rome and Greek factions they did struggle. Check the mark Anthony conquest of media where the horse archers struggled to make a impact. The battle was decided by melee even for those units. Battle of carhae is a legendary mistake by Crassus but even still it’s not like they lost a lot of units the first day. It took DAYS of shooting
nice shoulders man ur big dude
What may support your point on draw weights of Scythian bows is that these people used poisoned arrows. Considering that ancient battles commonly took days, you only need a good/lucky hit to do the trick, penetrating power may not be essential. Also, besides Romans or Persians with their heavy infantry, other, I dare to say more common, enemies of Scythians were other Scythians and other steppe/forest-steppe people. Btw, Scythians originated in the east, in the Altai-Sayan region of Southern SIberia and spread all the way to Pontic-Caspian steppes on the Black sea, not the other way around :)
No, Scythians did not originate in the "East" and spread to the "West".
Instead, Western Scythians and Eastern Scythians had completely different origins.
Western Scythians carried exclusively European paternal haplogroups, almost completely lacking the Iranian R1a-Z93 lineage that predominated among Eastern Scythians, as well as the East Eurasian paternal haplogroups that Scythians had.
Only the maternal lineages of Western Scythians show signs of "Eastern" admixture.
So the Western Scythians were people who had Scythian culture and married Siberian women, but they weren't direct descendants of Eastern Scythians on the paternal line.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
" Western Scythians carried diverse West Eurasian and East Eurasian maternal lineages. Initially, the Western Scythians carried only West Eurasian maternal haplogroups, however the frequency of East Eurasian haplogroups rises to 26% in samples dated from the 6th-2nd centuries BCE.[336] Among the Western Scythians discovered at Rostov-on-Don, in European Russia, East Eurasian maternal haplogroups make up 37.5% of the total. These results suggest that there was increasing marriages to women of East Eurasian origin among the Western Scythians.[337] The East Eurasian maternal lineages were likely brought by individuals sharing affinities with modern-day Nganasan people, as well as the ancient Okunevo culture.[338]
In terms of paternal haplogroups, almost all Western Scythians carried West Eurasian-associated haplogroups. Western Scythian remains have been observed to carry a specific clade of haplogroup R1b, characteristic of the Northern Pontic-Caspian steppe, which distinguishes them from Eastern Scythians, who most commonly carried haplogroup haplogroup R1a.[339] One Scythian from the Samara region carried R1a-Z93.[340]"
@@12-8O-SMLE Okay, I admit I should have been more specific here. I was referring to the Scythian material culture (as the video is about the bow) and the fact that in older literature it was believed that Scythians/Scythian culture originated in the Pontic-Caspian region and from there it spread to the east up to the Altai mountains (famous Pazyryk). However, recent archeological findings show that elements of pre- and early-Scythian culture first appeared in the Altai-Sayan region in modern-day Tuva/Khakassia/Mongolia (e.g., Deer stone-Khirigsuur complex, Karasuk, Tagar or Aldy-Bel, including Arzhan 1 and 2). In contrast to a relatively coherent picture of the cultural aspect, demographic models of the "Scythians" are much more complex (and more complex than evidence based on uniparental markers mentioned above). The picture that emerges from genetics is that both Western and Eastern Scythians shared a common ancestral gene pool that formed during the Middle/Late Bronze Age over a vast area of what is referred to as the Kazakh steppe, stretching from Ural to Altai/Baikal to south Central Asia, marked with regional genetic differentiation (naturally). You can also think of it as a genetic continuum. Over time, further genetic uptake or assimilation of local/regional groups occurred (reflected in different paternal/maternal lineages), resulting in more genetic differentiation within the Scythian horizon. Scythians occupied a huge mass of land over a significant amount of time so it is very unlikely they would have remained genetically (as well as culturally) uniform. Still, demographic expansions frequently occurred and represent an important component of models explaining Scythian genetics. For further reading:
"Cunliffe, B. (2019). The Scythians: Nomad warriors of the steppe. Oxford University Press."
"van Geel, B., Bokovenko, N. A., Burova, N. D., Chugunov, K. V., Dergachev, V. A., Dirksen, V. G., ... & Zaitseva, G. I. (2004). Climate change and the expansion of the Scythian culture after 850 BC: a hypothesis. Journal of Archaeological Science, 31(12), 1735-1742.
"Caspari, G., Sadykov, T., Blochin, J., & Hajdas, I. (2018). Tunnug 1 (Arzhan 0)-an early Scythian kurgan in Tuva Republic, Russia. Archaeological Research in Asia, 15, 82-87."
"Gnecchi-Ruscone, Guido Alberto, Elmira Khussainova, Nurzhibek Kahbatkyzy, Lyazzat Musralina, Maria A. Spyrou, Raffaela A. Bianco, Rita Radzeviciute et al. "Ancient genomic time transect from the Central Asian Steppe unravels the history of the Scythians." Science Advances 7, no. 13 (2021): eabe4414."
"Krzewińska, M., Kılınç, G. M., Juras, A., Koptekin, D., Chyleński, M., Nikitin, A. G., ... & Götherström, A. (2018). Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads. Science advances, 4(10), eaat4457."
@@gabrielsaffa5318
There is nothing in your sources that says any if this.
The science of Scythian origins shows that they did not "arise from a common gene pool." Eastern and Western Scythians had completely different origins; they are of multi-regional origins.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Siberian_world#Genetics
"The Scythians represent a "multitude of horse-warrior nomad" groups, which emerged from Bronze and Iron Age Central Asians (Western Steppe Herders or "Steppe_MLBA") who admixed with an East Asian-derived population represented by Khövsgöl LBA groups, giving rise to the various "Scythian cultures".[41] Different Scythian groups arose locally, rather than through migration patterns.[42][43]"
The reason Eastern and Western Scythians had completely different Y-DNA lineages is because they had completely different origins.
And assimilation can't explain the mtDNA lineages, either. The Western Scythians had increasing East Asian mtDNA lineages because they were importing wives from Eastern Asia who probably weren't even Scythian.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
"Among the Western Scythians discovered at Rostov-on-Don, in European Russia, East Eurasian maternal haplogroups make up 37.5% of the total. These results suggest that there was increasing marriages to women of East Eurasian origin among the Western Scythians.[337] The East Eurasian maternal lineages were likely brought by individuals sharing affinities with modern-day Nganasan people, as well as the ancient Okunevo culture.[338]"
@@gabrielsaffa5318
There is nothing in your sources that says any of thay. The genetic studies say that Eastrrn and Western Scythians had completely different origins -- they didn't "arise from a commom gene pool"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Siberian_world
"The Scythians represent a "multitude of horse-warrior nomad" groups, which emerged from Bronze and Iron Age Central Asians (Western Steppe Herders or "Steppe_MLBA") who admixed with an East Asian-derived population represented by Khövsgöl LBA groups, giving rise to the various "Scythian cultures".[41] Different Scythian groups arose locally, rather than through migration patterns.[42][43]"
The paternal haplogroups of Eastern and Western Scythians are completely different because the two populations had completely separate origins.
The Western Scythian's paternal lineage originated in the Pontic Caspian steppe, which is consistent with their origin there. The Eastern Scythian haplogroup R1a-Z93 is also from Europe; it got to the Altai from migtations from West to East.
Assimilation doesn't explain the mtDNA haplogroups either. In Western Scythians we see a real importation of women from Eastern Asia who had nothing to do with Scythians; this is not assimilation but essentially a kind of "ancient mail order bride".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Genetics
"Western Scythians carried diverse West Eurasian and East Eurasian maternal lineages. Initially, the Western Scythians carried only West Eurasian maternal haplogroups, however the frequency of East Eurasian haplogroups rises to 26% in samples dated from the 6th-2nd centuries BCE.[336] Among the Western Scythians discovered at Rostov-on-Don, in European Russia, East Eurasian maternal haplogroups make up 37.5% of the total. These results suggest that there was increasing marriages to women of East Eurasian origin among the Western Scythians.[337] The East Eurasian maternal lineages were likely brought by individuals sharing affinities with modern-day Nganasan people, as well as the ancient Okunevo culture.[338]"
Hey, lovely video! Do you mind linking the website/email of the bowmaker?
Google numa blacksmith
www.numablacksmith.com/m
Ive enjoyed learning more about the history of archery through your videos. Keep up the great work.
Nice video and shooting place 🏹
Thanks for the bow
Interesting remarks regarding cultural factor.
If you are right about their worse performance of early scythian bows compared to later models, it would mean that steppe did in fact witnessed progressive technology over centuries, with successive people using different types of bows having advantage over prdecessors . And technological prgress of pre-modern cultures is debatable topic in scholarship.
They were worser than Turkish medieval design in flight archery performance and does not shoot heavy arrows fast like Tatar bows. So they just in between but their biggest weakness is over complicated. The Mongol design is easier to make and more stable making it the perfect conquering the world bow
You're wrong. The Scythian bow shootz heavier arrows faster than the Tatar bows. Adam Karpowics said this in his document -- he made a refonstruction of a Scythian bow from Xinjiang.
The Scythian bow was the original "conquer the world bow" -- the Mongol bow is just an oversimplified descendant of it.
I was fully expecting you to be wearing a cupid costume. I'm kinda disappointed 😂
Joking aside, it was an interesting video. These bows are gorgeous.
Darn he took the thumbnail off
Hey man is the audio too loud?
@@HistoricalWeapons It's not. Seems fine to me
Hi, great video!
I'm also, like you very interested in historical archery. I've ordered a traditional Mongolian bow and I would like to make sure I do everything correctly. Do you know how did Mongols shoot long-draw bows? Are there any rules what man should do in order to shoot properly?
Hi thanks for watching check my older vids about mongols
If I may, when you are imitating horsearchery, try to anchor in your back/shoulder instead of anchoring by your face. Even though you anchored in the air (not touching your face), you still anchored/tethered to the jaw and your jaw bounces up and down, so the hand will follow that bc you are focusing on taht point. Move your hand completely away from the face/jaw and focus on the spot in your back, this way you can steady the bow in gallop bc it doesnt follow the jaw movements anymore and you are able to sort of "springload" your arms making the bow bounce a WHOLE lot less. This is what ppl dont get.. Doesnt matter if its a horse, a car, bicycle or your friend giving you a piggyback. If you anchor in your face, the bow will always follow the movements, bc the face follows the body which follows the source of movement. And it cant do the same as the arms can. The "springload" thingy. Hmm not sure "springload" is a good way of translating it... Imagine two looooong metal rods with 2 little balls on each end, attached to a metal pole going up and down fast via a motor right... They will bounce a tinybit bc the arms are so springy right?.... Imagine same setup, and you shorten the metal rods to like 1 inch, now those balls on the end goes as fast up and down as the rod does.
You're already kinda doing it with the forehand/bowgrip.... Just gotta do it to the backhand/draw aswell and then you suddenly have a relatively steady platform.
Think he’s just having fun
Don’t you have a civil engineering degree? Where’s your shear force bending diagrams and moment of inertia calculations
this video is about the design in context of historical warfare. This is not a structural analysis video to calculate if the design is safe, (in fact there are many structural designs with various methods of splicing with varied layer compositions, such as the tokarian horn vertical layer perpendicular to direction of bow limb and the Cimmerian horizontal layers like a conventional composite horn bow. so it would be its own entire video which I can blabber for another twenty minutes which I don’t think my target audience is interested ), and I don’t think shear force diagrams is needed for this topic.
one of the interesting things is the scythian tips tend to be somewhat static when drawn. the decurvature of the outer limbs act as levers (and static tips) that focus on the reflexed limbs above and below the handle. if you look at the anatomy of the design, the reflexed areas above and below the handle are more narrow and triangular (handle being wide). then when entering the deflexed outer limbs, the profile changes into a somewhat flatter cross section with rounded edges. also i speculate the asymmetry of the bow was so the bow would be shot with less hand shock as well as maneuvering on horseback
Thanks for the more detailed analysis. Such is interesting
That design actually allows for faster shooting when grabbing multiple arrows in the draw hand and firing without arrows falling short of the bow. I can make a video about this but I think it is a major part of it...these types of bows when strung are usually much shorter than d shaped bows and even if not the bend near the ends allows arrows to slide on them without falling into the bow while speed shooting. Good content as usual but I feel, as one of the fastest shooters, I've come to acknowledge this over the years and it isnt talked about much because of suppressed history to keep the poor less able to defend themselves and rely more on the royal guard.
Something to mention about light cavalry archers as well is that they not only were used to harass or cause the enemies' cavalry to pursue and pull them out of a reserve or support position is that your light cavalry can be used to attack the flanks of your enemies' foot soldiers so while they are occupied with their counterpart infantry to their front, they'd be receiving shots from their flanks where they don't have their shields deployed and they may have less personal armor covering their sides and rear. Also during the Roman wars they used many different types of auxiliary forces like slingers, archers on foot etc, and those troops tended to wear little to no armor at all because when they would inevitably be attacked or targeted they needed to displace quickly to regroup at another position so those troops would be a prime target for light cavalry archers.
There is this myth about Hercules, who was very violent at youth and had killed a man, so he was sent away to be educated by a Scythian slave (a shepherd) who taught hm use the Scythian bow.
thanks heaps for video quite interesting. interesting about the twisting at higher poundages, not entirely surprising as everything about that bow to me says maximum speed maximum handshock
The first time I heard about the Scythians was in Age of Empires 2. They are represented by the Mongol civ and are allies of Attila the Hun by providing him Mangudais, a unique Cav Archer.
As a former English teacher [in the US and Japan], it was hard to listen to your pauses today. That said, thank you for the great content! I think you are spot on about the Scythian bow and their style of warfare. Like the Mongols, they annoyed and baited their enemies to dividethem and then suddenly concentrate their forces against any smaller groups to achieve local overwhelming superiority of force. I wish I was one tenth the archer you are.
Thanks I will work on not saying ums. I do not have scripts
@HistoricalArchery I was surprised because you are usually well-spoken . Keep up the great content!
@@leoscheibelhut940 is the traffic a noisy problem? I should film indoors
not in a feminine way but a sensible one, I think that draw weight suits you.
Lol that draw weight suits most archers
Can you do a comparison between scythian and turkish bow?In terms of effective range and penetration power?
would love to see you dig up info on the cretan bows. i always imagined them looking scythian in design
I will. They looked more like ancient Arab bows before Macedonian conquest of Persia
Gullwing
Very nice video. I am really hesitating to get a scythian style bow for mounted archery. I have a feeling that the short size would actually be quite helpful as it would not be hindered by other stuff. My current mongol style bows sometimes arrow shafts, and when shooting backwards on a low target sometimes bumps my leg or the horse. A small bow would also mean a light bow, which is an advantage on a bumpy horse (although your reenactment of a horse is VERY bumpy 😀). I would agree that these weren't 130lbs bows, but I'd be very interested if there is a ballpark range of strength established by historians and archeologists or bowyers who have seen the construction of historical examples? Some of the historical finds do look pretty thick, with a lot of horn and sinew. Also it would be nice to see what arrow speeds can be achieved with historical replicas, either standing, or while doing forward and parthian shots from a galloping horse.
He purposely didn’t specify a draw weight for such a ambiguous and debatable topic
Where can I get one?
Nice
Which company makes that bow. ?
Thanks :)
"Scythian" is the Greek version of their endonym, "Skuda", which literally means "Shooter" (from PIE "Skewd" -"shoot").
Their bows gave them their identity.
This is because their bows appear to have been way, way more powerful than anyone else's at this time - it's been calculated that at the upper end, they probably shot in the region of 140lbs, while most other cultures at that time shot bows in the region of 50lbs and couldn't use them on horseback. They seem to have invented the compound horn-sinew-wood bow that would dominate Asian archery for thousands of years. It's not exactly a coincidence that Indian and Korean bows follow the pattern - the Scythians invaded India and contemporary Korea was part of the Scythian sphere, before it was cut off by the proto-Mongol rebellion (the same event that drove the easternmost royal Scythians, the Xiongnu, into India). Like the Chinese, proto-Mongols and proto-Turks, the Koreans probably payed tribute to the Xiongnu rather than being a part of their confederacy, but they seem to have enjoyed better relations with them than the other vassals did.
The reasons they have the particular shape I guess is:
A. It allows the limbs to be a little shorter, which allows the rider to be more athletic on the horse and can also protect the bow when falling from the horse or riding through forest.
B. Since they weren't copying anyone, it's not like they took a bow with straight sections and altered it, they made the design from scratch, so it just turned out however it turned out. The design was altered later by cultures who added the straight sections.
In Europe, Scythian bows appear to have been made of glued wood, without horn, since there are no Ibex in Ukraine, for example. They followed the same shape as the Eastern Scythian bows, presumably because they thought they had the winning design, even without the horns which kind of dictated the original shape.
Herodotus tells us how the Scythians poisoned their arrows using a mixture of various putrid liquids, including snake venom. This may have been a local phenomenon, to compensate for lower draw weight bows of these wooden bows.
We can have some idea of the power of these western Scythian bows based on the armour that was effective against them. Sarmatians were the absolute bane of the western Scythians and armoured themselves and their horses from head to foot with lames made from horse hoof. This should not have effectively repelled attacks from 140lb bows, so clearly the western Scythian bows had much lower power. This can also be surmised by looking at the decline of the Scythian bow in Scandinavia, where it was gradually replaced by the long self-bow. If it was a vastly superior bow, the art probably wouldn't have been lost, but it seems like the complicated shaping really wasn't worthwhile without the horn lamination - an aspect which had already been lost during the migration through a part of the world without suitable horn.
The Scythians certainly did use a combination of weapons (apparently there were whole tribes who didn't actually use horses or bows, fighting with spears, on foot), but I don't think it's so much about a lack of lethality of their bows, as much as a sense of opportunism. Given the trouble that they went to to create very powerful bows in the east and to poison their arrows in the west, I think this was a culture that did not "spray and pray", but cared about each shot.
An example of how the melee weapons might have been used: when fighting against cavalry or projectile wielding enemies, such as themselves or their mortal enemies, the Sarmatians, they might shoot an arrow at fairly close range and then they could either circle off, or they could make a split second decision to continue toward the target and try to plant an axe in their head, depending on whether there appears to be an opening. It can be a lot quicker to make that melee attack than to ready and shoot another arrow. I don't think they would have pulled melee weapons against spear wielding infantry very often at all.
The 3rd weapon that the typical Scythian would use, the akinakes, as definitely an example of this immediacy; it was (at least, originally) a last resort weapon that they'd unsheath and stab with in a single motion. If they had time to use a bow, that's what they'd use, but anticipating that they would sometimes have the need to make a rapid close-quarters attack, they carried the weapons for those situations.
This "very prone to twisting" line is because the bow you're holding is _nothing_ _like_ a Scythian bow. They have a lot more meat, with a round section, not a flat section. Hope you get a real one some day. =)
Very very nice bow
its a Great looking bow.
Is that a Grozer? I have a Grozer Old Scythian, I love it, I'm thinking of getting his biocomposite version at a higher poundage.
No it’s a numair modified Siti
How much price
They’re shaped like that for a purpose for stored energy. In the more reflects you have the more stored energy the and then you deflex in the grip so you can get your longer drawlenth and the horn is good in compression. That’s why it’s used on the belly those bowyers did what they thought was best at the time and it still is. It doesn’t have any thing to do with how they wanted it to look but how fast they could make it shoot and they are still fastest traditional bows in the world
Good bow🙂👍🏹
the further back from the 'front' of bow your hand is the faster the arrow flys but the more hand shock u get the same goes for a longer arm taking longer to cover distance by reflex deflexing you get 2 shorter arms for power but a longer bow string with a shorter working arm and hand set way back from front of bow . by placing a reflex deflex.
i suspect their shape was for speed, heavier siahs reduce the power/speed the arms can release their energy at by having a almost entire working arm they maximise power to weight ratio while achieving shortest possible draw length/placing handgrip as close to the string as possible
from what i know of bow making the scythian bows where actually possibly the pinacle in terms of raw engineering if not the materials used to manufacture them
reflex deflex gives significant speed increase because ur working arms are effectively shorter for string length as dose a tapering working arm as dose a lighter siah and everything about that bow is designed to maximise power/speed at the cost of hand shock. its not insignificant its the difference between 250FPS and 300FPS
27" arrows - very short...
Me with a 26.5" draw 😅
Is there a Difference between parthian?
The Scythians also had negative/reverse curved swords that could reach over the Roman shield wall & hit the head & body with ease.
I prefer the Cupid wings
You should use peeiod arrow and arrow head in context with the bow. One compliments the other in why they do what they do
Making them
🔥🔥🍑🍑🍑OMMMMMM
So, the Scythian bow can be likened to machine guns in the Great War; suppress and control the enemy.
P.S.; I did enjoy this video :)
thanks a lot i was worried audio too loud
@@HistoricalWeapons it wasn’t.
Do Assyrian Bows next.
Some evidence indicates that Scythian bows were more powerful you than indicate here. A replica of a 3,000-year-old Scythian bow from Xinjiang by Adam Karpowicz & Stephen Selby came out to 120lbs at 28in. The arrows found with the bows were 30-31, so it's possible the original draw length was even longer. They estimate Scythian bows were 80-140lb bows based on this replica, noting that minor variations in construction can significantly change draw weight. Likewise, Plutarch wrote the follow of Parthian arrows at Carrhae:
"And when Crassus ordered his light-armed troops to make a charge, they did not advance far, but encountering a multitude of arrows, abandoned their undertaking and ran back for shelter among the men-at‑arms, among whom they caused the beginning of disorder and fear, for these now saw the velocity and force of the arrows, which fractured armour, and tore their way through every covering alike, whether hard or soft."
I agree with Karpowicz & Selby. I suspect Scythians used a similar range of draw weights as other mounted archers, surely varying quite a bit across the Scythian people's long & wide-ranging history. It's additionally worth noting that some sources say Scythians used poisoned arrows. This would have made weaker bows more effective (& their archery more effective in general, assuming the poison worked).
As far Greek armor & shields being so effective against arrows, I'm not convinced that's the case. It seems to have been true enough at the time, against most of the foes ancient Greek armies faced. But from what we know about later bows & about the physical properties of Greek armor & shields, I can't imagine hoplites as immune to arrows from powerful archers. It's worth remembering that an arrow pierced Alexander the Great's torso armor & incapacitated him.
Thanks a lot for your comment for discussion. First of all I think archeological finds is often biased towards nobility that bothered to preserve bows so there may be biased especially in a warrior culture where the elite are portrayed as strong. Think of elite Manchu archers with heavy bow entrance test. when I say heavy bow, i mean 120lb+. Medium bow for me is the 80-120lb. light bow for me is
@@HistoricalWeapons The quotation isn't clear on what armor they defeated, but it says that Parthian arrows at least frighten Roman heavy troops ("men-at-arms"). Plutarch specifically mentioned the power of Parthian bows: "making vigorous and powerful shots from bows which were large and mighty and curved so as to discharge their missiles with great force." That is just one source, & you're right the length of battle suggests that Roman equipment provided considerable protection.
80-120lbs appears to be the common range of draw weights for good horse archers based on Chinese-region officer examinations, Qing records, & estimated draw weights of surviving Turkish bows. Unless I misheard, you mentioned 50lbs in the video.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 much testing have been done with made in India Roman armor which I find all offered excellent protection against trad modern bows. Have u found any quality penetration tests? I’ve seen compound bows go through made in India roman armor but that’s almost irrelevant
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 yes getting shot and seeing your shield get penetrated is terrifying. Reminds me of that seen where Ragnar in Vikings see a arrow sticking out of his inside of shield
@@HistoricalWeapons Joe Gibbs's 160lb yew warbow or Tod's lockdown longbow penetrate most targets at close range. & it's only as powerful as an 82lb Manchu-style bow shooting heavy arrows, apparently. Only the heaviest mail seems to be able to stop such arrows with around 130 J of KE. Mail was perhaps the most common Roman armor. From the studies I've seen, Roman plate armor (segmentata) used plates of around 1mm thick & usually made of just iron. There was some overlap, maybe, & presumably fabric defenes as well, but 1mm or less is still very thin. Lots of bows will go through 1-1.5mm iron plates. I don't really see how ancient armor could stop warbows at close range given the published details such as thickness & metallurgy. & we know Alexander the Great's armor failed in at least that one case where an arrow penetrated & took him out for a while. Now, combined with a large shield, it makes sense to me that ancient heavy infantry would have been resistant to arrows even from strong archers.
Do we know definitively what types of bows were used by Cretan archers during the classical/Hellenistic period? I know that many Greek depictions of archers show them using Scythian bows, but I have also seen bows of the double convex with/without decurve tips painted as well, even dating back to the Bronze Age. In “Histories” by Herodotus, he notes that the Lycians fighting for Persia, supposedly of cretan origin, used bows made of cornel wood with unfletched arrows
Also, Xenophon in “Anabasis” noted that the Cretan archer contingent that was included among the 10,000 were comfortably outranged by the Persian archers, to the point where rhodian slingers were needed to force the Persians back. So the cretans couldn’t have been using composite bows, no?
Gonna make a video on Cretan archers
@@robvillar191they used gullwing and deflex reflex and self d bows before Alexander conquest. After that I’m sure they picked up local Persian bows. After that it’s difficult to say
Thanks for the reply. Also, to get back on the video topic, is it possible that Shang/Zhou dynasty warriors used the Scythian bow? I’ve seen pictographs and engravings that might suggest this.
yes I remember seeing that too. but I am pretty sure that is influenced by the bronze age nomadic people as bamboo / wood bows is more intuitive for most chinese warfare applications of the bronze age@@robvillar191
i love skythian bows
Bro what’s Scythian music
No idea
Wow
🎉
Hi Jack, it’s a good thing you said it’s mostly speculation, nice vid tho.
The deflex has nothing to do with the shape of the horn, as the horn is allways glued in opposite direction as you have shown: reflexes with the tip of the horn meeting at the handle. With historical hornbows the shape the bow is found in has more to do with stringset than with the shape the bow was made in. (as the deflex occurs in the part of the limb that does most of the work, makes sense right. Also the deflex could be induced by the bowyer with some mild heat when stringing the bow for the first time and balancing out the limbs as well as making the bow more stable.
The reason for fibreglass bows to have adopted this shape probably has more to do with the elasticity modulus of epoxy based fibreglass and, once again stability.
Direction is based on what convention. Left is right from your perspective on camera
@@fatboy8420 up is still up, as down is still down.
@@HistoricalWeapons no I’m talking about the picture of the horn you showed in relation to the bow.
its logistically a lot harder to make the bow limbs complete straight than to just follow the natural curve. the deflex has a lot to do with the horn shape. the horn is naturally deflex/reflex (depending on convention). hence their original inspiration of the bow shape is also deflexed/reflex.
since the horn is already curve you logically make a handle that is curved opposite to follow the natural inflection. so start with reflex at handle and deflex back because horn shape. of course you can do reflex reflex like late medieval bows but thats a lot harder to string.
Is the Scythian bow the oldest known composite hornbow? Potentially they invented it.
No we have earlier Akkadian/cimmerian bows of composite recurve as well as Chinese Bronze Age bows showing m shape that predate the Scythians
Thoze weren't wood horn horn bows. Scythians bows are the oldest wood horn composite bows.
@@12-8O-SMLE we cannot be certain if they are or not. The oldest m shape recurve comes from 3000 years ago in China
Correction, Macedonians, yes there are records in koine from tjeir conquests
🇮🇷 💪🏼
First Iranian Tribe
🗿👍🏿
Yes
2:03 bros in the hood 🤣🤣
gun range
Volume too loud
Really
Just turn it down
Just adjust the volume either on the video bar at the bottom or on your speakers/device.
@@2bingtim😂 this guy doesn’t live in 2023
@@HistoricalWeapons The volume was absolutely fine for me & others it seems. Both volume & quality was good as always. I just offered the guy that advice in case it was a simple case of not understanding the basics of online or UA-cam.
Why use knocks in such light wt bow if there are no knocks in arrow it will allow even quicker shooting just using tip of thumb and index finger
I don’t think the bows were that light perhaps 75lb
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