Done with a great sense of humor, this upload is a shining example of chivalry (towards Valentina Lisitsa - to whom Wim feels great empathy) and self-respect (towards Wim's own proven theory and inner truth as a musician). Thanks so much for this upload.
@@twpvideos719 By all means play the Traumerei as Schumann indicated at 1/4=100 bpm, and be laughed off the stage. Horowitz recording is at about 1/4=48 Bpm.
I have never heard that, but I heard that in Russia the standard is high in art and it is very high level of playing. Because one woman said a thing to you and there is a Russian pianist that rushes though most of her pieces every Russian plays piano as a sport? Just look at the placements in the chopin competition over the years. On almost every top 5 there Is one or more Russian/soviet pianist. They have so many great pianists such as trifonov, horowitz, kissin etc. That most say something. If piano was like a sport they wouldn't have so many top tier pianists. (btw I don't know if I can count the competition cause it is a Competition but it is still relevant i think)
I am impressed by your empathy for Lisitsa despite her literally attacking your humanity and life work in such a childish way. Your strength of character inspired me to subscribe to your channel and turn the notification bell on. I do not have the funds to support your patreon if you have one but I will surely share your videos on social media.
Thats because Wim, unlike most of these other pianists, is not coming from a place of ego. This is not only about the music itself, but also he in a place to help all those young musicians who are put in an immense ammount of stress and struggle because of unrealistic expectations and excessive practcing. Thats what I think.
Classic Gameplay I saw a comment on one of Valentina lisitsa’s UA-cam videos from 9 years ago where she legit says she doesn’t play alkan due to an argument she had with someone “years ago” and called herself stubborn and head strong, and I just thought it was so childish
Lol, I think she should hire a publicist. Her Twitter is wild too! In 2014/2015 she tweeted very anti-Ukraine racist stuff and allegedly cheered when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine. Later she stated that she uses "satire" and "hyperbole". After having a run-in with her myself and seeing her comments here, I think she is actually capable of saying something like that.
Love your channel. You showed by your response to Lisitina that you are humble, and a gentleman/scholar. I believe you're one of those rare passionate musicologists that truly love the tradition of classical music and seek to preserve it. Thank you.
Sir, you have balls of steel! Going up against the elite in the musical world is really a mission impossible and you will get some beating. I'm still in the process of trying to grasp the fact that tempi has gone off the rail and do not represent what composers actually had in mind. I remember at the conservatory I fought the temptation of enjoying the Chopin etudes in what I believed to be "practicing" tempo. Now I understand that what I thought was practicing tempo is really the tempo Chopin intented them played in. No wonder I thought the etudes made sense musically at "half" speed. Since discovering this channel I have regained the joy of pianoplaying. I can now play at half speed and not be ashamed, - what a relief!
I mean if everything was half speed music would not be the same for me, and I find most of the romantic repotoire much better with the tempo we play at now. And what if it is hard and stressful to get the right tempo? Are challenges not so fun? If chopin, Liszt, beethoven etc was half speed there would not be the big challenge in the way. I think piano is not a "snack" that you play just for the pleasure. For me piano is an art, discipline, a part of my live and sometimes it can be very satisfying. Would you imagine how boring it would be if you could play chopin études with 2 weeks of practice? I like putting effort in, trying my best and getting the reward for it.
And I don't believe in This theory of playing half tempo. I have some arguments but I am not looking for a discussion cause I am not gonna change my point of view.
@@blairwolfe2994 I am no proffesional. I love piano and putting time into it, but if I wanted to be a concert pianist I would have to dedicate my whole life into it. It is too much hard work. I would rather enjoy it in doses of 2-3 hours a day and still play some concerts here and there. You don't have to be a proffesional to play pieces in 100% tempo. Why do you like taking the easier road? Don't you love it when you have spend so much time on a piece and you finally mastered it? I love every single hour I spend on practicing piano. I think that people that take the easy way are people that don't like practicing but they like playing (which is fine if they don't say "you are not playing the real real tempo")
Wim Winters, your playing has been a revelation to me. It's like reading old poetry with the original spelling and punctuation. By focusing precisely on the composer's intentions, you put big names in the keyboard performance business to shame, and you do it with humility and humanity. Your sound is pure and authentic, and I love it!
Wim your message here is so profound! It is the music we must respect. It is our job to find the deepest meaning we can ...or interpretation from the artist and serve the music . So easy to just "use" music rather than respect what it is and why it is.
She's an awesome pianist, but her comment from an artist to another displayed such a lack of taste, I ended up unsubscribing from her. I don't care if you agree with WBMP or not, just try not to be disrespectful about it.
@@lemonemmi I'm ready to take my "time" bach from another "scholar" who's really unbecoming lately. (clue in the post) These people have zero class I couldn't imagine taking a swipe at another creator on YT. The looking glass contains some of the most bitter herbs.
I unsubbed as well cuz I was trying to find her comment and found a bunch of pro-Russian propaganda bullshit on her twitter. can't support someone like that
@@thomashughes4859 I always thought the looking glass contained silicon dioxide and thin layer of silver or aluminum onto the back of a sheet of glass (SiO2).
Until I watched your videos, well argued and substantiated, I never knew this topic could be so interesting. I went and played this sonata according to the tempo presented here, and it is really interesting. It shows why music is such a rich art.
Mr. Winters, I think the reason why Miss Lisitsa and others are frustrated is because your drive to prove this theory right has gotten in the way of the whole point of it. Strong self assurance, of course, can be a very positive thing. But when the conversation changes from “could we be wrong about single beat?” to “I am absolutely right about whole beat!”, it can come across as a bit grating and egotistical. Questioning whether we truly know history is a valiant and noble cause, but you are not the only person doing research in this field, and like all theories, it isn’t perfect. People are going to do their own research in comparison and when they do, they may not necessarily be convinced of whole beat theory. Some may, but some will not. But when you continue to insist you are correct, and then make multiple videos using Miss Lisitsa as your example of being ‘absolutely correct’, once again, it can come across as grating. I am not saying that her frustrated response is by any means completely justified, but maybe the focus needs to change back to “could we be wrong about single beat?” instead of “I am definitely right about whole beat!”
I don't know how I would feel if something like that happened to me, but he actually has all the legal rights to do so. And with how much evidence he is giving for double beat, I find it really hard to continue giving even more without going to the next level. Many of his videos only get criticism like "How the hell is this allegro, its too slow!", and no real criticism. I would have done the same thing if I were in his place. People who defend the single beat usually treat double beat like those stupid 5G conspiracy theories and they don't try to debunk them with historical material.
I could not agree with you more. Every time I hear the Waldstein sonata, I hate how ridiculously fast it is played. You dont get to savour the nuances of the music. It just sounds like a meaningless rush of notes. You are so correct, especially about the music of Chopin too.
I think the sad truth is that not many people actually care about classical music (and many, who claim they do, do it to appear cultured). But performing incredible feats always sells tickets, so that's what classical pianists resort to - performing incredible feats. Faster, louder, from memory! But what if the reason people don't care about classical music is that the music became unlistenable thanks to this competition-driven race to the top (or the bottom, from my perspective). Another bad consequence of it is that it discourages people from taking up piano as a hobby: I couldn't play like Lisitsa even if I had a million years to practise, and I don't have a million years, so why even bother. I'm quite certain that a lot more people played the piano recreationally in the 19th century. I thank God that I wasn't first exposed to J. S. Bach's music through Valentina Lisitsa's recordings (but those of Christiane Jaccottet) because I would never listen to Bach again after that, and that would be a tragedy. They are truly awful, even worse than her accent (I'm not as kind as you are, Wim). And thank God, I stumbled upon your channel because I can now enjoy Beethoven and Chopin. I've never really listened to them before, so for me it's like attending a première every time.
I felt like that once. Now I can play Paganini on the guitar. Don’t ever think you can’t do anything. Even if you have to do it slower, there is so much more to learn.
Artem G. I agree that this olympic sport approach has turned off many folks. Music has become theater rather than a listening experience. Our love for flashy shiny performance created folks like Liberace (nota dis - I quite admire his music). We all too often don't take the time to understand or appreciate what makes music reach our hearts.
@@barralpha There's a nice chapter about this in the book "The Great Pianists" by Harold Schoenberg on this very subject. Pianists even back in Mozart's time became the centerpiece because of what they could do technically at the piano and showed off with tricks and speed. What were initially party tricks eventually became mainstream later on in the 19th century when pianists needed to make money because they were no longer composers being supported by rich patrons. The only way the made their money now was to have concerts and outdid each other with speed and other crowd pleasing performance things.
I disagree with some things you said. Performances nowadays are not “unlistenable” for most people, and we do in fact care about the music. It is possible to demonstrate or appreciate technicality and musicality at the same time. Most of our tastes like the modern interpretations because that’s what we were surrounded with when we grew up. We’re used to hearing it played fast so we learn how to process and appreciate it. But that doesn’t mean I can’t love what Wim is teaching us, it really surprised me and opened my eyes to a whole new world of music!
Nelson Freire, the great Brazilian pianist and a musical hero of mine, gave an interview a few years ago criticising this masochist school of piano playing. Basically, he said “with sweat, one can overcome the obstacles of a Rachmaninoff [composition], but the life one loses locked in a room [practising] will never be recovered. What is an artist’s interpretation other than the expression of his or her own experiences? […] That’s why I’m concerned with young [musicians]. If you spend 10 or 12 hours studying, what are you going to express? The study [itself]?” I think Valentina’s sensibility to criticism only demonstrates the emotional toll that approach to studying music takes on performers. For anyone interested, here’s the interview (in Portuguese). cultura.estadao.com.br/noticias/musica,nelson-freire-o-que-os-jovens-que-estudam-12-horas-por-dia-vao-transmitir-o-estudo,10000097047
Totally agree... music performance is so packed and industrialized, that the sense of interpretation has being lost. Its a shame, because thats reflect a kind of "social imbalance", where we have the unachievable pianists and us (the regular ones).
Over-practising is as unproductive as under-practising is lazy. Out of curiosity I looked for Nelson Freire and Moonlight: his tempo for the third movement is equal to Lisitsa's, and (I agree) more expressive. But of course, he was much older than Lisitsa in that recording. Give her time.
@@ExAnimoPortugal i thought V.Lisitsa already shot that Wim's way. i seriously thought that was going to be the main topic of this video - you know, on a channel with lots of historical research and stuff - not musing about her childhood..
I'd like to hear that too. On the other hand, I have yet to hear any explanation from the traditionalist camp of the preponderance of obviously-too-fast metronome markings that aren't pseudo-religious or ad hoc deflections.
My first reaction about her comment ‘what a conceited ... !’ (I probably shouldn’t use that word here). All these celebrity status musicians are so full of themselves. But you’re very gracious Wim, and we should follow your example. Reaching a certain level of popularity doesn’t mean a person always displays enough grace and class. As you said, we all can have a bad day and Lisitsa is not an exception.
I love your humility and your desire to continue the discussion. I understand why she commented that way. Some of us would start our day at 6 am and end at midnight - I remember those hours, this lifestyle would preclude any other activities or persons. For some of us, we had to make a choice, either the concert stage or family. When you sacrifice as much as she did, it is evident why she defends that practice. I appreciate how you have invited her to join in the conversation. Thomas Kuhn, in his seminal work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions," addresses how difficult it is to change the status quo, even when people, (in Kuhn's case scientists), claim to be open to looking at the facts, in fact, are not willing to let go of their practice in spite of the facts. This is why it takes 40 or more years to accept "new" ideas in science. I hope that we can live in a musical world where we dialog and share with respect- just as you have done Mr. Winters.
The thing is, when someone pretends concerts used to last twice as long while there are countless reports of how long it used to take to perform pieces, it's really hard to take him seriously and to believe he doesn't know what h'e's saying is ridiculous...
This was a magnificent cogitation in every aspect of it. It was thoughtful, empathetic and true to this precious and enriching theory. As a future musicologist, I am feeling more and more appealed by it. It just makes sense! I really want to thank you for making this content here on UA-cam. It inspires me to meditate around these topics and around how important is to adapt our ears and expectations to the composer's will, instead of blindly following a tradition that doesn't necessarily reflect how music and playing was played and listened to. Not that this tradition is a mistake, but it may differ from the composers' wishes and we, as listeners and as musicians, have the responsibility, or the power, to acknowledge that. And sadly, it can be defying and uncomfortable.
Mrs. Lisitsa hasn´t responded to this video and the suspense is killing me. Also, you did a great job on keeping it civil Mr. Winters. A calm temper is a rare gift on this day and age, especially in internet discussions.
I think that one of the more inflammatory phrases you used in your Moonlight sonata video was something along the lines of modern interpretations of Beethoven's works being "simply incorrect" (correct me if I'm wrong). At the end, music is an art, and although I think it is honorable and respectful to uphold the original intents of composers, it is not "against the rules" to deviate from them. There is nothing stopping a pianist from practicing pieces at blazing-fast tempi, and if that earns them an audience, all the power to them. It is part of an important artistic dialogue to discuss what factors, such as historical accuracy, performer's emotions, technical display, etc. make up a great performance, but I think to tell someone that their way of playing is "incorrect" makes the rather narrow assumption that there is exactly one "perfect" interpretation of each piece that every musician must strive exclusively to achieve. Nonetheless, I think you responded to Lisitsa's comment very respectfully, with one exception. Your remarks at 14:39, an assumption about Lisitsa sacrificing her personal life for practice, cut deeply, no matter the circumstances: I would imagine anyone would take offense to such a comment if it weren't true, and if true, such comments are extremely hurtful. In a discussion about musical interpretations, I think such a comment is too personal.
Very good insights, Wim. Would anyone think a composer expected people to practice 12 to 14 hours a day to play his music? People in the 19th century didn't have the distractions we have today. But did they actually spend 50% of their day practicing? They had to eat, sleep and make a living.
Liszt was known to have practiced up to 12 hours per day at times after having heard Paganini. In one quote he mentioned that he spent 5-6 hours a day on technical exercises alone (scales, octaves, thirds, sixths etc.). I assume other virtuosos of the day would have spend large amounts of time practicing as well, although perhaps not quite so much. Becoming top tier in any endeavour never comes without a personal cost.
The more important an insight is the longer it takes to be accepted. Yours might be one of those that might not be accepted during your lifetime. I'm sure this is no surprise to you. You are planting a seed that can grow into a tall tree, but first it must survive. I have been following your progress for five years or so, and it seems to me that you are past the first few winters. Thank you for your spirit of scholarship, your patience and your humanity. For what it's worth, you are in great company, and I don't need to name the names in the musical world.
Well, how much time do you spend at stadiums at the Olympics? How much time do people spend at the Superbowl? How much time do people spend at a baseball game? How about the world cup finals? there are many things that are all day events, many concerts and benefits are longer than 8 hours. celebrations of all kinds are all day events. People take breaks, go for an intermission, come back. Who knows, perhaps music was played with breaks in between movements. All I'm saying is... the right question to ask is not how long a musical piece would last if it was played at that temp. The right question to ask is: "What is the right tempo that composers intended?"
Well, as I am looking into this concert for 2 months now, I can say one thing.... it was definitely not in single beat... Because with single beat it would have been more than an hour short of 4 hours. As all sources tell that it was freezing in the hall, the audience would have left in such a long intermission. Also, the intermission would have been after nearly 2 hours. Also, the sources are from Beethoven enthusiasts, and they would have mentioned if the auditorium had been empty after the intermission because they would have stated that they were brave enough to stay longer! We know that Beethoven planned to cut repeats in at least the Choral Phantasie, so we could agree that he did that with other pieces too. We also know, that there was only one - very chaotic - rehearsal and the musicians' hands were cold. So the claim that you play the 5th and 6th symphonies in the tempo that Gardiner gets... well I would say every single listener would have left furious... They say, that the quality of the Missa solemnis parts was not of high quality, but don't mention the symphonies to be like that. Also, the orchestra was an ad hoc orchestra, which means it was not the usual forces of the Theater an der Wien, but all musicians that Beethoven somehow could get together. So to tell me that Beethoven made it possible to play the tempo markings in single beat with all of this .... hardly possible. Is there a discrepancy with the WBT and the length of the concert... yes. And I am on it to solve it. It takes time to find sources due to Corona and me not being in my home country Austria at the moment. But I will find more.
It’s still nice to hear some pieces played fast. Personally, I’m not against musicians interpreting a piece to their own tastes. Your channel opened my eyes to a new way of experiencing certain pieces and it’s sad to see people getting so offended by it.
I'm becoming more and more convinced about the validity of your theory. But enough theory already. I am really keen on listening to more and more recordings at, or close, to the tempi that you assert are the truly intended ones by the composers. Can you refer (or play) more of those recordings so that we could start comparing what we're used to hear with what was "meant" all those centuries. Very eager to experience that.
Wim, I think you thoroughly roasted Valentina in your response! For some time I have found some of these performances to be a hot mess of blur, and not only by Valentina. They are technically brilliant, but leave me cold. I started watching your channel about 6 weeks ago, and am loving the musicality that emerges once the tempo goes down. My favourite so far has been your version of the Alla Turca on the Clavinova - a simply brilliant interpretation. As a self taught pianist, I've played several of Beethovens sonata's at a speed that feels "about right" (no reference to metronome at all, as I don't have one), and when you play it seems to come out at about the same speed (except for my adagio and grave pieces that I seem to be playing faster than you). When I've head other "professionals" play those pieces, I have previously been left frustrated (at the thought of never being able to reach those speeds) and underwhelmed (that the melody lines just seem to get lost), but you have brought back both a belief that maybe I can just play them better (not faster) and savour the melodies within.
Hello Wim! I am a devoted subscriber to your channel and have been convinced on historical metronome readings. That being said, I’d love to see you and the musicologist channel ‘Pianopat’ have a debate on Double-Beat theory.
Even though Lisitsa was rather rude about your rendition, she did have one substantive, evidence-based criticism, regarding concert duration. You missed an important opportunity in this video to address that criticism, and spent too much time, I believe, dwelling on telling the story of Lisitsa's life, which could be seen as patronising. I'm always dubious when an argument engages with someone's character and presumed emotions rather than with the actual substantive arguments they've raised. I have been enchanted by some of the music on your channel and enjoyed your presentations of evidence, but I'd like to see you address some of the criticisms that come up about historically known concert lengths that seem too short and passages that seem too slow by your method. Maybe I just haven't found those videos yet...
Just wait for the next videos :) It's just two of us at the moment working here and we cannot do everything immediately. Research takes time in order to answer to all questions, since history is not a set of black and white facts and it's also very nice when people know it. The response to those questions is coming very soon
It’s patently clear that you respect and admire Valentina Lisitsa and had no intention of criticising her whatsoever, so it’s rather disappointing that she found it necessary to take exception to your reference to her. Well done Wim for responding to her comment with humility and understanding. Music is greater than its performers, it will endure well beyond all the lives of its most accomplished and current technically adept interpreters. Sometimes even the greatest amongst us make mistakes and this is possibly an example. To err is human.
In defence of Valentina Lisitsa there is always the possibility of a confusion through language since both WIm and Valentina didn´t write this in their primary language.Same as i do right now.
This is why I hate metronome markings and obsessing about them. I wish more composers were like Bach and left them out of most of their music. I believe that artists are free to interpret works any way they please, even if it means playing much too fast or slow, or even going against the spirit of the composer. It makes for a more rich array of recordings and performances. Frankly, I don't care much for what the original tempo markings are, as long as the music is conveyed authentically. Look at the difference between Scriabin's Sonata No 5 between Hamelin and Gould, both competently different but beautiful in their own right.
Exactly what I thought. Too many musicians today want to find the exact "correct" tempo or way of playing as the historic performance. I don't say I reject Wim's idea because he is just trying to rediscover the "authentic" way of playing, but I don't like how people keep arguing on whether SBT or WBMP are correct. We are not 100% sure on how did the composers play, and even if we are, does that mean we need to 100% copy their performances? That would stop interpreting and discovering the beauty of the music. If I compose a piece, I wouldn't want people to exactly play how I play, but to share their ideas on executing the hidden beauty of my piece. I'm pretty sure that it was what the composers back then thought.
I was already impressed by your other videos and ideas, but this is impressive. Made me hit the the subscribe button. A great demonstration of maturity and humor at the same time. Thank you for uploading this and I am looking forward to the book you mentioned. Bedankt Wim!
THNX FOR BRINGING UP THIS SUBJECTS OF WHERE MUSIC CROSSES IDEOLOGY...AND THE TRAPS THT FOLLOWS...ALWAYS TAUGHT V.L WAS SOOO HUMBLE AND NICE, BUT SHE HERSELF HAS FALLEN INTO THE TRAP OF CONDEMNING OTHER MUSICAL IDEAS TEMPOS WHTEVER ONE WOULD CALL IT, THT DOESNT SUIT HER VIEWPOINT, IN THT REGARD SHE MAY BE MERCILESS, I LOV HER NONETHELESS
Great video. You do look a lot like Tom. Lovely, gracious response to her. I am a retired physician. At age 16 I had to choose medicine or music. My music interest surpassed my skill on piano, flute and organ. All through college I studied very hard long hours. The only piano I had access to was horribly out of tune. No time for that. Got the grades and got into medical school. This was 8 hours of classes and then 7 hours study. This time requirement looks like conservatories time commitment. Now I have a piano and lessons. My feelings are so labile ...sad my old skill is so lost. How slow recovery of skill with my arthritic fingers. Short and stubby with lack of an octave on the right... no need the litany. I so much respect you thorough reading of old documents which had never heard or to glean ideas to discuss. Tis hard to go against the usual stream.... to see things differently. Medicine has the same difficulty with much needed calm, thoughtful discussions of diagnosis, treatments or even forgoing aggressive measures when a life is judged to be short and a body frail. I could go on. Your calm reassuriing video with a sense of humor is wonderful. She fought so hard to get to her level. All the while in a rigid demanding even dictatorial system which blasted her with the not so subtle message that a woman just cannot do as well as a man.... it is hard. ( My experience was like this.) You called it correctly.
@@fcouperin I thought it was well known that concerts, even as recently as the first half of the C20, lasted for absolutely hours and hours. I didn't quite understand why she thought a 5/6 hour concert would be unusual. Actually, if you think about it, it's still not unusual nowadays. Rock bands will often do a two hour set, after one or two support acts have played. But the people who go to hear them tend to really like the music, and I'm not sure the same can be said for a lot of classical audiences who get bored after an hour and a half nowadays.
Well, how much time do you spend at stadiums at the Olympics? How much time do people spend at the Superbowl? How much time do people spend at a baseball game? How about the world cup finals? there are many things that are all day events, many concerts and benefits are longer than 8 hours. celebrations of all kinds are all day events. People take breaks, go for an intermission, come back. Who knows, perhaps music was played with breaks in between movements. All I'm saying is... the right question to ask is not how long a musical piece would last if it was played at that temp. The right question to ask is: "What is the right tempo that composers intended?"
@@vito-lattarulo Old concert programmes from the turn of the C20 in the UK. And sorry to burst your bubble, matey, but I'm not a double beater. I mainly come to Wim's channel because I love his clavichord playing....plus the comedy value of people getting in a froth. I used to get in a froth too, back when I was a grad student, but nowadays I realise that nobody ever died from music. Apart from Lully of course. Have a great day.
The TV Mission: Impossible Theme is in 5/4 composed by Lalo Schifrin. Electric bassist Carol Kaye worked closely with Lalo Schifrin, playing on the theme to Mission: Impossible and also for the Soundtrack of the Movie Bullitt. However, Wim Winters does not resemble Steve McQueen.
Mr. Wim, your channel drew me in with its clear presentations of historical research, and there are many great videos on the channel. I dislike the so-called "super virtuosos" just as much as you do. However, if you listen to Serkin or Schnabel, two of the most well-known and highly-regarded Beethoven interpreters of all time, you will find that neither one slows down the bars you discuss. Why don't you engage with these recordings instead of cheapening your message by picking on low-hanging fruit like Lisitsa? The fact that you say "all pianists" slow down these bars exposes a narrowness in your listening that your audience will pick up on eventually.
@@DJStefandeJong Wim's argument is entirely based on the idea that performers can't PLAY the 32nd note due to technical limitation. The counterargument is you can find some pianists who CAN. Wim has made good arguments in favor of WBMP but this Beethoven sonata isn't one of them.
You were very respectful to her, bravo. Our business is full of strong convictions and it's part of what we have to do to put ourselves out there on the stage, either as performers or academicians. As an opera conductor and former pianist, this discussion of period tempi and metronome marks is something I struggle with in opera all the time. We hear stories of Mozart's leading the orchestra, and how fast it was at times (supposedly the first Prague version of Giovanni came in at 2 hours.) The tenor Michael Kelly's first autobiography (his years with Mozart) document the rehearsal process during Nozze with Mozart onstage working with the cast and yelling down to the orchestra to correct tempi. When you take the tour of Teatro San Carlo in Napoli, they explain how Verdi/Bellini/Rossini and other composers were obligated by contract to sit thru the first 3 performances of their premieres to make sure tempi were correct. You can read Gossett's explanation of how during Verdi's lifetime his friends and assistants attempted to go back and put metronome marks in scores with Verdi's approval to correct errant performances. In opera we have the advantage voices move at certain tempi that suit them, plus an allowance of more rubato and variability. I believe things did slow down as the orchestras got bigger, louder, theaters larger, and singers were forced to project even more over that wall of sound. However by 1920 Puccini complained that singers and conductors were taking his music too slowly, and if you look at Toscanini's tempi for Boheme you understand how the faster lighter more "spoken" approach works in the smaller European/Italian houses. Strauss said the same for Rosenkavalier, as Solti in his documentary described Strauss told him. So much depends on text, language, inflection and theater acoustics, and a good opera conductor is really like a train conductor turning a curve, making micro adjustments from cast to cast, theater to theater, to adjust the sound to fit. Italian opera moves, German opera sits back...it all comes from how the language of each shapes the phrasing.
I have watched this yesterday and I have some many conflicting ideas. I will approach this with the insight of a translator. Often, the source text is regarded as "sacred" as though it had no flaws. The same goes for composers' work. It's always regarded as sacred text not to be tampered with. The tempo issue doesn't matter to me much as a listener if the musical idea is rendered in a convincing way and in such manner that I can enjoy tone colors and expressiveness. You can write your own text but when it comes to translating it, it'll be much harder than writing a new one in that target language. I don't mind that today's tempo is different than Beethoven's time. Instruments changed dramatically, tastes as well. Is there some principle or law that says it's illegal to play faster? All that matters to me is the musical idea: clarity, expressiveness, tone color, and a sense of cohesion between the composer's intent and the final output. I can feel it when a pianist doesn't get it. When you look at Liszt's Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude, some pianists just rush too much and finish the piece in under 15 minutes, but few others who really UNDERSTOOD Liszt and the poetic context surrounding the whole piece, which is a meditation at its very core. Martina Filijak stretched the piece to 20 minutes and what a joy it is to hear. We idolize Beethoven way too much that we lose perspective of what truly matters: the musical expression, pure and simple. I'm a fugue lover and I hate it when pianists play it fast; I want to see the fugal subject in big bold letters so I can discern how beautiful it is.
So I recorded part1 of the Moonlight sonata at 30bpm and my teachers says "You can't play it like that, everyone will fall asleep". What should I do if she will not accept it as "finished piece" unless I play it twice as fast? Which is perfectly possible for me.
They absolutely are right though. All these theorists seem to forget that music is in all of its freedom always ultimately intended to be listened to by an audience. Play the movement that way and they most certainly will find it boring. Whether or not you are bothered by this is for you to decide
@@classicgameplay10 Funny you say that. I have a 2 printed versions one came with a kawai digital the other with casio. Kawai don't mark MM at all, Casio went with q=52, which in my noob opinion sounds better than playing at 60 and not as gravely sad as at 30. Also thanks for the tip!
Valentina Lisitsa, on the description of her video of Chopin's Nocturne in D flat, Op. 27 n° 2: "I dreaded the moment when I will get sick and tired of this sweetest thing ever written with its gorgeous but repetitious melody.... Then I had my "eureka" moment . it happened when I started looking at Chopin's metronome markings - in all other Nocturnes they were perfectly in sync with today's consensus - maybe little faster here , slower there... But this one - oh my God ! Lento Sostenuto marked as 50 beats per minute in half-measure ( 150BPM in eights ). You know how fast is it ???? Check-it out and see if you can keep up with Mr. Chopin LOL ..... i can't , I still play it waaaaaay under tempo .Let's see how many "critics" will leave comments saying it is too fast .....But , no matter what it makes a perfect sense- and suddenly my dread turned into astonishment at Chopin's genius.The whole piece is suddenly transformed from overly long sugary-syrupy chant to an exalted and impassioned speech" I truly believe she misunderstood your video, Wim. She might have thought that you were criticizing her playing, or trying to get more views using her name or something.
Valentina Lisitsa plays this piece at around 24 dotted quarter notes per minute. Chopin wrote: dotted quarter note = 50. This means that Valentina plays at exactly half of the speed proposed by Chopin... This gives evidence to the theory defended by Mr. Cruise.
You can liken this quest to the quest of being a better person... It is never quite over. We can always grab deeper meaning. In this way we can constantly pay our respects to the composer... Whom took the time in his life and all his life efforts to create the things we take for granted.
Tom - it would indeed be useful for Benji to address the 1808 duration issue - or put a link to the video if you have done so before. More power to you.
Best video Ive seen in this channel! You, sir, are officially the biggest troll of "academic music" on youtube. And Lisitsa feeding you has produced this masterpiece, I couldn't stop laughing thru the whole thing. Please answer her bait on the 7hour long concert! Seriously, make more of this content and less slow-mo of Beethoven!
'Humour/Chivalry' - I concur! - Well replied sir! Picking up from some of your dialogue; A theme constantly in my own teaching/playing is how much ''should'' we 'serve' the composer and how much are we ''allowed'' to do our own thing. One would think that with a view of more freedom than our conservatoires would 'allow' I might not like being 'told' that it 'should' go 'like this'. However, I have taken much away from your channel - and while there are examples that make me go 'mmm' (and I am open to this being a result of my 'conditioning') there are certainly more that make complete sense. However, regardless of the 'truth' I am open to a performer playing how they like - as long as the context is there, and musical reasoning. Horowitz celebrated in being an individualist, and GG certainly put his own spin on things. I like his Brahms - congrats Bernstein for running with it (well, - walking). I also believe a good many Composers are a good deal more open to interpretations of their works than Conservatoires are. Though on the other hand; reading contemporary accounts of Beethoven's tempo fluctuations you would be laughed of stage if you followed his example today... I think my vision of performance freedom with a context of historical research is something you share to at least some degree. My central belief being we should not be turning out clones, and of course not meaning that we ''shouldn't'' pursue 100% authenticity, and even acknowledging that authenticity might be our principal benchmark.
The influence of The Public on the artist and thus on the always developing tradition of music practice is undeniable and heavily underestimated. This is what I learned from this video and I am convinced on that. Could you give us a piece of evidence for your suggestion that Liszt had decided to quit public performance, because he felt he was being pressured by the audience to play faster than the composer had in mind and he was willing to?
I found something Valentina said in her first post very interesting and compelling. If the works are played with your metronome method, how long would a performance last? I then began thinking about ballet and opera, written in the same period with the same metronome markings. How long would those take and/or how would they sound? What would be the requirements of the choir in Beethoven's 9th for example? Might be worth checking historical performances to get an idea of start and stop times. For instance, an opera starting at 8pm and lasting 6 hours instead of 3 would sound unlikely.
I think the only value of Authentic music for someone like me (a non musician who listen to music to enjoy it) is its historical value. I enjoy different pieces in it's non original tempo and when I compare it to authentic ones, I still prefer the non authentic version. But visa versa is also true, I've listen to your version of a piece of music and I hear something different that I couldn't hear before. Like your example with the Beethoven moonlight sonata 3th movement. All in all, I think your discussions are very interesting.
Your willingness to try to understand the motivations of the opposition are commendable, as is your refusal to simply repay insults with more insults. One of my favorite performances of Beethoven's 5th is Proms 2012, Barenboim conducting. It is considerably slower than basically every recording I've ever heard of it. I prefer it so much that it's actually annoying to listen to much faster versions. All that said, even if you're right about everything (and you may well be), what Valentina does is exquisite art, and I wouldn't have her do it any other way.
Can someone give me a source/list, where I can find the metronome marks of the beethoven sonatas uncommented? With a simple google search I do find nothing except articles about the metronome indication problems with Beethovens music. I especially want to know the indication for the Pathetique sonata, to experiment myself... And also: WHY am I not able to find it on the internet?
if you dig through the videos on this channel you'll find many, and their sources, too. most are not by the composer himself, but by Czerny, i believe. (maybe search for Czerny editions of scores on IMSLP?) but Beethoven did leave a few as well.. most famously for his 'Hammerklavier'..
There is one thing I don't understand about your theory, why would musicians in the late 19th century begin to play faster? Why would they throw away the tradition of writing their metronome marks in double beat? We can clearly notice composers must have abondend everything they knew about tempi and began a huge revolution. But we don't we find evidence of this in e.g. Liszt's letters, or in his book about Chopin. What about Liszt's arrangement of Beethoven symphonies for piano solo, why are the metronome markings there in single beat? He was Czerny's pupil, so he must've had a lot of respect for B's music, so why would he change the tempo so much? Also, I checked wikipedia, and I found written evidence of the fact Liszt didn't include the Hammerklavier in his famous 1836 recital. If you're interested, I will send you a link. If you can answer these questions and give me written evidence, I will believe your theory.
And the 1808 concert suggested by lisitsa was WELL documented at 4 hours and it contained 5th and 6th symphonies, 4th PC, and choral fantasy, in total around 2.5 hrs of music but with TWO intermissions and just general tuning and time between movements I’d say it adds up correctly to 4 hrs; but with wims theory 5th and 6th would take close to 2.5 hrs, so it’s a very valid question to be answered-he must not shy away!
Grand context , Ravel's La Valse , a predictive piece , the end of the Romantic beginning in pastoral peace , becoming a mechanistic dystopia by degrees , and here we are with Robocop among us , Schwab and Gates telling us what our transhumanist future will be . Mechanistic metronome or Russian soul ... I'll go with Valentina
I'm a very beginner piano player and the only thing that I have to say is: Maybe, Beethoven played like a child much more faster than she. Maybe, Liszt move his hands in a super-human speed without making sound of the keys to practice dynamics just for fun. Maybe Czerny is right and you just don't get it. No one knows, it's not because you can't "hear" the logic, that the logic (musically) isn't there. That's my opinion. Some time ago, it's was impossible to a "human" reach the moon, or even talk to person on a long distance. It's an error think that humans can't do this or that just because "we" think it's not possible, but every effort to step to the future of music is valid, and I can't invalid yours, so I wish you best luck, for real 🙏🏻✨
Complete with the use of (Lalo Schifrin's) theme music that's in 5/4 ... Splendid! Of all the communities available to us there is not one I would want to devote myself to, except for the society of the true searchers, which has very few living members at any time. . . - A letter from Albert Einstein to Max Born, quoted by Born (1971) We trust that Ms. Lisitsa is of this mindset. Fred
I think Lisitsa is frustrated about not having the credit she deserves! These days it's not just about skills ... it's more about advertising and stuff. and also the current trend of music is shifting to bullshit you know .. despite her technique and virtuosity, she cannot do it. Anyway, her response was quite disappointing. finally, thank you for your work. please continue
I think it is my duty as a music historian to show all you people the following 2016 paper by Ekaterina Korlikova et al: “Metronomic subjectivities throughout several levels of proficiency and their effects on musicians personal lives : A restrospective study “. It will certainly shed light on some of your preconceptions and perhaps settle this dispute once and for all. You can thank me later.
Done with a great sense of humor, this upload is a shining example of chivalry (towards Valentina Lisitsa - to whom Wim feels great empathy) and self-respect (towards Wim's own proven theory and inner truth as a musician). Thanks so much for this upload.
wolkowy1 Well said.
He still negged her, though, which isn't necessarily bad.
@@twpvideos719 By all means play the Traumerei as Schumann indicated at 1/4=100 bpm, and be laughed off the stage. Horowitz recording is at about 1/4=48 Bpm.
Where I can find the comments of Lisitsa?? where were they posted??
@@isostasique I'm also search for it but I canot find it
A Russian woman I know once told me that playing the piano is practically a sport in Russia.
She expressed something similar in the shown interview. I find it quite sad, don't you?
@@Paroles_et_Musique I don't know about the majority
I have never heard that, but I heard that in Russia the standard is high in art and it is very high level of playing. Because one woman said a thing to you and there is a Russian pianist that rushes though most of her pieces every Russian plays piano as a sport? Just look at the placements in the chopin competition over the years. On almost every top 5 there Is one or more Russian/soviet pianist. They have so many great pianists such as trifonov, horowitz, kissin etc. That most say something. If piano was like a sport they wouldn't have so many top tier pianists. (btw I don't know if I can count the competition cause it is a Competition but it is still relevant i think)
@@Paroles_et_Musique ok ok take a chill pill sis
So is chess. So is backgammon. So is checkers aka draughts. So is Ludo. Lol.
This is not Sonata difficult, Mr. Hunt. This is Sonata Impossible!
Sonata Impossible NEEDS to be a title to a real thing, it's just too good...
I am impressed by your empathy for Lisitsa despite her literally attacking your humanity and life work in such a childish way. Your strength of character inspired me to subscribe to your channel and turn the notification bell on. I do not have the funds to support your patreon if you have one but I will surely share your videos on social media.
Thats because Wim, unlike most of these other pianists, is not coming from a place of ego. This is not only about the music itself, but also he in a place to help all those young musicians who are put in an immense ammount of stress and struggle because of unrealistic expectations and excessive practcing. Thats what I think.
Classic Gameplay I saw a comment on one of Valentina lisitsa’s UA-cam videos from 9 years ago where she legit says she doesn’t play alkan due to an argument she had with someone “years ago” and called herself stubborn and head strong, and I just thought it was so childish
Lol, I think she should hire a publicist. Her Twitter is wild too! In 2014/2015 she tweeted very anti-Ukraine racist stuff and allegedly cheered when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine. Later she stated that she uses "satire" and "hyperbole". After having a run-in with her myself and seeing her comments here, I think she is actually capable of saying something like that.
LOL
Love your channel. You showed by your response to Lisitina that you are humble, and a gentleman/scholar. I believe you're one of those rare passionate musicologists that truly love the tradition of classical music and seek to preserve it. Thank you.
Sir, you have balls of steel! Going up against the elite in the musical world is really a mission impossible and you will get some beating. I'm still in the process of trying to grasp the fact that tempi has gone off the rail and do not represent what composers actually had in mind.
I remember at the conservatory I fought the temptation of enjoying the Chopin etudes in what I believed to be "practicing" tempo. Now I understand that what I thought was practicing tempo is really the tempo Chopin intented them played in. No wonder I thought the etudes made sense musically at "half" speed.
Since discovering this channel I have regained the joy of pianoplaying. I can now play at half speed and not be ashamed, - what a relief!
@Андрей Бахарковскй Half-speed relative to what?
I mean if everything was half speed music would not be the same for me, and I find most of the romantic repotoire much better with the tempo we play at now. And what if it is hard and stressful to get the right tempo? Are challenges not so fun? If chopin, Liszt, beethoven etc was half speed there would not be the big challenge in the way. I think piano is not a "snack" that you play just for the pleasure. For me piano is an art, discipline, a part of my live and sometimes it can be very satisfying. Would you imagine how boring it would be if you could play chopin études with 2 weeks of practice? I like putting effort in, trying my best and getting the reward for it.
And I don't believe in This theory of playing half tempo. I have some arguments but I am not looking for a discussion cause I am not gonna change my point of view.
@@op-th1yx not everybody wants to be a professional player you know
@@blairwolfe2994 I am no proffesional. I love piano and putting time into it, but if I wanted to be a concert pianist I would have to dedicate my whole life into it. It is too much hard work. I would rather enjoy it in doses of 2-3 hours a day and still play some concerts here and there. You don't have to be a proffesional to play pieces in 100% tempo. Why do you like taking the easier road? Don't you love it when you have spend so much time on a piece and you finally mastered it? I love every single hour I spend on practicing piano. I think that people that take the easy way are people that don't like practicing but they like playing (which is fine if they don't say "you are not playing the real real tempo")
The video is titled "roasted by Valentina Lisitsa", but the contents of the video is quite the opposite.
Thank you for your work like this. It's so important to be having these discussions!!
This will be interesting... love the thumbnail, Mr. Cruise!
Wim Winters, your playing has been a revelation to me. It's like reading old poetry with the original spelling and punctuation. By focusing precisely on the composer's intentions, you put big names in the keyboard performance business to shame, and you do it with humility and humanity. Your sound is pure and authentic, and I love it!
I know she is going to protect her “brand” of playing. But I know that Wim would have set her straight, right? Let the sparks fly! 💥
Wim your message here is so profound! It is the music we must respect. It is our job to find the deepest meaning we can ...or interpretation from the artist and serve the music . So easy to just "use" music rather than respect what it is and why it is.
She's an awesome pianist, but her comment from an artist to another displayed such a lack of taste, I ended up unsubscribing from her. I don't care if you agree with WBMP or not, just try not to be disrespectful about it.
@@MasmorraAoE Not to take away from the video, maybe better to wait for Tom Cruise himself to tell.
@@lemonemmi I'm ready to take my "time" bach from another "scholar" who's really unbecoming lately. (clue in the post) These people have zero class I couldn't imagine taking a swipe at another creator on YT. The looking glass contains some of the most bitter herbs.
@@thomashughes4859 Yes, Tom... I think I know whom you mean. People are passionate about music... No excuse to behave badly though.
I unsubbed as well cuz I was trying to find her comment and found a bunch of pro-Russian propaganda bullshit on her twitter. can't support someone like that
@@thomashughes4859 I always thought the looking glass contained silicon dioxide and thin layer of silver or aluminum onto the back of a sheet of glass (SiO2).
Until I watched your videos, well argued and substantiated, I never knew this topic could be so interesting. I went and played this sonata according to the tempo presented here, and it is really interesting. It shows why music is such a rich art.
Mr. Winters, I think the reason why Miss Lisitsa and others are frustrated is because your drive to prove this theory right has gotten in the way of the whole point of it. Strong self assurance, of course, can be a very positive thing. But when the conversation changes from “could we be wrong about single beat?” to “I am absolutely right about whole beat!”, it can come across as a bit grating and egotistical. Questioning whether we truly know history is a valiant and noble cause, but you are not the only person doing research in this field, and like all theories, it isn’t perfect. People are going to do their own research in comparison and when they do, they may not necessarily be convinced of whole beat theory. Some may, but some will not. But when you continue to insist you are correct, and then make multiple videos using Miss Lisitsa as your example of being ‘absolutely correct’, once again, it can come across as grating. I am not saying that her frustrated response is by any means completely justified, but maybe the focus needs to change back to “could we be wrong about single beat?” instead of “I am definitely right about whole beat!”
I don't know how I would feel if something like that happened to me, but he actually has all the legal rights to do so. And with how much evidence he is giving for double beat, I find it really hard to continue giving even more without going to the next level. Many of his videos only get criticism like "How the hell is this allegro, its too slow!", and no real criticism. I would have done the same thing if I were in his place. People who defend the single beat usually treat double beat like those stupid 5G conspiracy theories and they don't try to debunk them with historical material.
I could not agree with you more. Every time I hear the Waldstein sonata, I hate how ridiculously fast it is played. You dont get to savour the nuances of the music. It just sounds like a meaningless rush of notes. You are so correct, especially about the music of Chopin too.
Do why are modern metronomes different, when did they change?
I think the sad truth is that not many people actually care about classical music (and many, who claim they do, do it to appear cultured). But performing incredible feats always sells tickets, so that's what classical pianists resort to - performing incredible feats. Faster, louder, from memory!
But what if the reason people don't care about classical music is that the music became unlistenable thanks to this competition-driven race to the top (or the bottom, from my perspective). Another bad consequence of it is that it discourages people from taking up piano as a hobby: I couldn't play like Lisitsa even if I had a million years to practise, and I don't have a million years, so why even bother. I'm quite certain that a lot more people played the piano recreationally in the 19th century.
I thank God that I wasn't first exposed to J. S. Bach's music through Valentina Lisitsa's recordings (but those of Christiane Jaccottet) because I would never listen to Bach again after that, and that would be a tragedy. They are truly awful, even worse than her accent (I'm not as kind as you are, Wim).
And thank God, I stumbled upon your channel because I can now enjoy Beethoven and Chopin. I've never really listened to them before, so for me it's like attending a première every time.
I felt like that once. Now I can play Paganini on the guitar. Don’t ever think you can’t do anything. Even if you have to do it slower, there is so much more to learn.
Artem G. I agree that this olympic sport approach has turned off many folks. Music has become theater rather than a listening experience. Our love for flashy shiny performance created folks like Liberace (nota dis - I quite admire his music). We all too often don't take the time to understand or appreciate what makes music reach our hearts.
@@citizensnips2348 Paganini did write for guitar, but many people may not know that.
@@barralpha There's a nice chapter about this in the book "The Great Pianists" by Harold Schoenberg on this very subject. Pianists even back in Mozart's time became the centerpiece because of what they could do technically at the piano and showed off with tricks and speed.
What were initially party tricks eventually became mainstream later on in the 19th century when pianists needed to make money because they were no longer composers being supported by rich patrons. The only way the made their money now was to have concerts and outdid each other with speed and other crowd pleasing performance things.
I disagree with some things you said. Performances nowadays are not “unlistenable” for most people, and we do in fact care about the music. It is possible to demonstrate or appreciate technicality and musicality at the same time. Most of our tastes like the modern interpretations because that’s what we were surrounded with when we grew up. We’re used to hearing it played fast so we learn how to process and appreciate it. But that doesn’t mean I can’t love what Wim is teaching us, it really surprised me and opened my eyes to a whole new world of music!
Nelson Freire, the great Brazilian pianist and a musical hero of mine, gave an interview a few years ago criticising this masochist school of piano playing. Basically, he said “with sweat, one can overcome the obstacles of a Rachmaninoff [composition], but the life one loses locked in a room [practising] will never be recovered. What is an artist’s interpretation other than the expression of his or her own experiences? […] That’s why I’m concerned with young [musicians]. If you spend 10 or 12 hours studying, what are you going to express? The study [itself]?”
I think Valentina’s sensibility to criticism only demonstrates the emotional toll that approach to studying music takes on performers.
For anyone interested, here’s the interview (in Portuguese).
cultura.estadao.com.br/noticias/musica,nelson-freire-o-que-os-jovens-que-estudam-12-horas-por-dia-vao-transmitir-o-estudo,10000097047
Totally agree... music performance is so packed and industrialized, that the sense of interpretation has being lost. Its a shame, because thats reflect a kind of "social imbalance", where we have the unachievable pianists and us (the regular ones).
Só os Brs
There is a whole anime on that, I haven't seen it. But there is a video by Jaime Altozano commenting it.
Over-practising is as unproductive as under-practising is lazy. Out of curiosity I looked for Nelson Freire and Moonlight: his tempo for the third movement is equal to Lisitsa's, and (I agree) more expressive. But of course, he was much older than Lisitsa in that recording. Give her time.
i thought you would address the counter-argument of the 1808 concert's duration, though.. 🤔
Was waiting for that as well
I'm sure that if you shoot Wim a message politely, that could be an interesting subject for another video.
@@ExAnimoPortugal i thought V.Lisitsa already shot that Wim's way.
i seriously thought that was going to be the main topic of this video - you know, on a channel with lots of historical research and stuff - not musing about her childhood..
I'd like to hear that too. On the other hand, I have yet to hear any explanation from the traditionalist camp of the preponderance of obviously-too-fast metronome markings that aren't pseudo-religious or ad hoc deflections.
*Crickets... He's more interested in a creepy, rambling, passive-aggressive rant in his stretched English.
My first reaction about her comment ‘what a conceited ... !’ (I probably shouldn’t use that word here). All these celebrity status musicians are so full of themselves. But you’re very gracious Wim, and we should follow your example. Reaching a certain level of popularity doesn’t mean a person always displays enough grace and class. As you said, we all can have a bad day and Lisitsa is not an exception.
Single beat: Mission impossible.
If this is another clickbait, I swear... :D
I'm affraid not 😎
LOL!
I love your humility and your desire to continue the discussion. I understand why she commented that way. Some of us would start our day at 6 am and end at midnight - I remember those hours, this lifestyle would preclude any other activities or persons. For some of us, we had to make a choice, either the concert stage or family. When you sacrifice as much as she did, it is evident why she defends that practice. I appreciate how you have invited her to join in the conversation.
Thomas Kuhn, in his seminal work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions," addresses how difficult it is to change the status quo, even when people, (in Kuhn's case scientists), claim to be open to looking at the facts, in fact, are not willing to let go of their practice in spite of the facts. This is why it takes 40 or more years to accept "new" ideas in science. I hope that we can live in a musical world where we dialog and share with respect- just as you have done Mr. Winters.
The thing is, when someone pretends concerts used to last twice as long while there are countless reports of how long it used to take to perform pieces, it's really hard to take him seriously and to believe he doesn't know what h'e's saying is ridiculous...
This was a magnificent cogitation in every aspect of it. It was thoughtful, empathetic and true to this precious and enriching theory. As a future musicologist, I am feeling more and more appealed by it. It just makes sense!
I really want to thank you for making this content here on UA-cam. It inspires me to meditate around these topics and around how important is to adapt our ears and expectations to the composer's will, instead of blindly following a tradition that doesn't necessarily reflect how music and playing was played and listened to. Not that this tradition is a mistake, but it may differ from the composers' wishes and we, as listeners and as musicians, have the responsibility, or the power, to acknowledge that. And sadly, it can be defying and uncomfortable.
She should try it, she just might find out that she likes it. Very nice video, Wim Winters, very respectful while standing your ground.
Mrs. Lisitsa hasn´t responded to this video and the suspense is killing me. Also, you did a great job on keeping it civil Mr. Winters. A calm temper is a rare gift on this day and age, especially in internet discussions.
She's an international concert pianist, not sitting in her cellar making 19 minute break-down rants about people she doesn't know like this clown.
Where did she say something ? Can't find
@@pneron2032 "A calm temper is a rare gift on this day and age, especially in internet discussions" applies really well right here.
What a sense of humor Valentina....12/14 hours on the piano and 2/3 on youtube .... wow ... what a wonderful life 😳😳😳😳
Th best video you ever made, thank you for the hard work and the sharing
Because of your kindness, your humilty, your understanding even when others lash out, I shall (almost) always be on your side.
I think that one of the more inflammatory phrases you used in your Moonlight sonata video was something along the lines of modern interpretations of Beethoven's works being "simply incorrect" (correct me if I'm wrong). At the end, music is an art, and although I think it is honorable and respectful to uphold the original intents of composers, it is not "against the rules" to deviate from them. There is nothing stopping a pianist from practicing pieces at blazing-fast tempi, and if that earns them an audience, all the power to them. It is part of an important artistic dialogue to discuss what factors, such as historical accuracy, performer's emotions, technical display, etc. make up a great performance, but I think to tell someone that their way of playing is "incorrect" makes the rather narrow assumption that there is exactly one "perfect" interpretation of each piece that every musician must strive exclusively to achieve.
Nonetheless, I think you responded to Lisitsa's comment very respectfully, with one exception. Your remarks at 14:39, an assumption about Lisitsa sacrificing her personal life for practice, cut deeply, no matter the circumstances: I would imagine anyone would take offense to such a comment if it weren't true, and if true, such comments are extremely hurtful. In a discussion about musical interpretations, I think such a comment is too personal.
Very good insights, Wim. Would anyone think a composer expected people to practice 12 to 14 hours a day to play his music? People in the 19th century didn't have the distractions we have today. But did they actually spend 50% of their day practicing? They had to eat, sleep and make a living.
Liszt was known to have practiced up to 12 hours per day at times after having heard Paganini. In one quote he mentioned that he spent 5-6 hours a day on technical exercises alone (scales, octaves, thirds, sixths etc.). I assume other virtuosos of the day would have spend large amounts of time practicing as well, although perhaps not quite so much. Becoming top tier in any endeavour never comes without a personal cost.
@@gabithemagyar at times doesn't mean everyday.
The more important an insight is the longer it takes to be accepted. Yours might be one of those that might not be accepted during your lifetime. I'm sure this is no surprise to you. You are planting a seed that can grow into a tall tree, but first it must survive. I have been following your progress for five years or so, and it seems to me that you are past the first few winters. Thank you for your spirit of scholarship, your patience and your humanity. For what it's worth, you are in great company, and I don't need to name the names in the musical world.
Wim, the only thing lacking in your video is a quick response to Lisitsa's comment about the December 1808 concert needing 7 hours....
Legit avoiding the most logical argument. He cares more about playability than authenticity.
Is that implausible? It isn't a modern audience
Well, how much time do you spend at stadiums at the Olympics? How much time do people spend at the Superbowl? How much time do people spend at a baseball game? How about the world cup finals? there are many things that are all day events, many concerts and benefits are longer than 8 hours. celebrations of all kinds are all day events. People take breaks, go for an intermission, come back. Who knows, perhaps music was played with breaks in between movements.
All I'm saying is... the right question to ask is not how long a musical piece would last if it was played at that temp. The right question to ask is: "What is the right tempo that composers intended?"
Oscar Moreno Yes all very true, however there are historical accounts that the concert was 4 hours long
Well, as I am looking into this concert for 2 months now, I can say one thing.... it was definitely not in single beat... Because with single beat it would have been more than an hour short of 4 hours. As all sources tell that it was freezing in the hall, the audience would have left in such a long intermission. Also, the intermission would have been after nearly 2 hours. Also, the sources are from Beethoven enthusiasts, and they would have mentioned if the auditorium had been empty after the intermission because they would have stated that they were brave enough to stay longer! We know that Beethoven planned to cut repeats in at least the Choral Phantasie, so we could agree that he did that with other pieces too. We also know, that there was only one - very chaotic - rehearsal and the musicians' hands were cold. So the claim that you play the 5th and 6th symphonies in the tempo that Gardiner gets... well I would say every single listener would have left furious... They say, that the quality of the Missa solemnis parts was not of high quality, but don't mention the symphonies to be like that. Also, the orchestra was an ad hoc orchestra, which means it was not the usual forces of the Theater an der Wien, but all musicians that Beethoven somehow could get together. So to tell me that Beethoven made it possible to play the tempo markings in single beat with all of this .... hardly possible. Is there a discrepancy with the WBT and the length of the concert... yes. And I am on it to solve it. It takes time to find sources due to Corona and me not being in my home country Austria at the moment. But I will find more.
It’s still nice to hear some pieces played fast. Personally, I’m not against musicians interpreting a piece to their own tastes. Your channel opened my eyes to a new way of experiencing certain pieces and it’s sad to see people getting so offended by it.
I'm becoming more and more convinced about the validity of your theory. But enough theory already. I am really keen on listening to more and more recordings at, or close, to the tempi that you assert are the truly intended ones by the composers. Can you refer (or play) more of those recordings so that we could start comparing what we're used to hear with what was "meant" all those centuries. Very eager to experience that.
@XDranzer000 You're pretty much heckling someone. The one real reason why people get banned here. Leave him alone.
Wim, I think you thoroughly roasted Valentina in your response! For some time I have found some of these performances to be a hot mess of blur, and not only by Valentina. They are technically brilliant, but leave me cold. I started watching your channel about 6 weeks ago, and am loving the musicality that emerges once the tempo goes down. My favourite so far has been your version of the Alla Turca on the Clavinova - a simply brilliant interpretation.
As a self taught pianist, I've played several of Beethovens sonata's at a speed that feels "about right" (no reference to metronome at all, as I don't have one), and when you play it seems to come out at about the same speed (except for my adagio and grave pieces that I seem to be playing faster than you). When I've head other "professionals" play those pieces, I have previously been left frustrated (at the thought of never being able to reach those speeds) and underwhelmed (that the melody lines just seem to get lost), but you have brought back both a belief that maybe I can just play them better (not faster) and savour the melodies within.
Hello Wim! I am a devoted subscriber to your channel and have been convinced on historical metronome readings. That being said, I’d love to see you and the musicologist channel ‘Pianopat’ have a debate on Double-Beat theory.
Practice 14 hours a day may dont let you time to assimilate diferents points of view...
Even though Lisitsa was rather rude about your rendition, she did have one substantive, evidence-based criticism, regarding concert duration. You missed an important opportunity in this video to address that criticism, and spent too much time, I believe, dwelling on telling the story of Lisitsa's life, which could be seen as patronising. I'm always dubious when an argument engages with someone's character and presumed emotions rather than with the actual substantive arguments they've raised.
I have been enchanted by some of the music on your channel and enjoyed your presentations of evidence, but I'd like to see you address some of the criticisms that come up about historically known concert lengths that seem too short and passages that seem too slow by your method. Maybe I just haven't found those videos yet...
Just wait for the next videos :) It's just two of us at the moment working here and we cannot do everything immediately. Research takes time in order to answer to all questions, since history is not a set of black and white facts and it's also very nice when people know it. The response to those questions is coming very soon
@@AuthenticSound we will wait for ur research sir !! Keep going !👍
Valentina would be a great collaborator. She definitely has the chops to tackle the single beat versions of the pieces you've been studying.
It’s patently clear that you respect and admire Valentina Lisitsa and had no intention of criticising her whatsoever, so it’s rather disappointing that she found it necessary to take exception to your reference to her. Well done Wim for responding to her comment with humility and understanding. Music is greater than its performers, it will endure well beyond all the lives of its most accomplished and current technically adept interpreters. Sometimes even the greatest amongst us make mistakes and this is possibly an example. To err is human.
In defence of Valentina Lisitsa there is always the possibility of a confusion through language since both WIm and Valentina didn´t write this in their primary language.Same as i do right now.
She speaks english very very well.
This is why I hate metronome markings and obsessing about them. I wish more composers were like Bach and left them out of most of their music. I believe that artists are free to interpret works any way they please, even if it means playing much too fast or slow, or even going against the spirit of the composer. It makes for a more rich array of recordings and performances. Frankly, I don't care much for what the original tempo markings are, as long as the music is conveyed authentically. Look at the difference between Scriabin's Sonata No 5 between Hamelin and Gould, both competently different but beautiful in their own right.
Exactly what I thought. Too many musicians today want to find the exact "correct" tempo or way of playing as the historic performance. I don't say I reject Wim's idea because he is just trying to rediscover the "authentic" way of playing, but I don't like how people keep arguing on whether SBT or WBMP are correct. We are not 100% sure on how did the composers play, and even if we are, does that mean we need to 100% copy their performances? That would stop interpreting and discovering the beauty of the music. If I compose a piece, I wouldn't want people to exactly play how I play, but to share their ideas on executing the hidden beauty of my piece. I'm pretty sure that it was what the composers back then thought.
I was already impressed by your other videos and ideas, but this is impressive. Made me hit the the subscribe button. A great demonstration of maturity and humor at the same time. Thank you for uploading this and I am looking forward to the book you mentioned. Bedankt Wim!
Valentina Lisitsa is so cool
Not so cool based on how she slammed this guy....
THNX FOR BRINGING UP THIS SUBJECTS OF WHERE MUSIC CROSSES IDEOLOGY...AND THE TRAPS THT FOLLOWS...ALWAYS TAUGHT V.L WAS SOOO HUMBLE AND NICE, BUT SHE HERSELF HAS FALLEN INTO THE TRAP OF CONDEMNING OTHER MUSICAL IDEAS TEMPOS WHTEVER ONE WOULD CALL IT, THT DOESNT SUIT HER VIEWPOINT, IN THT REGARD SHE MAY BE MERCILESS, I LOV HER NONETHELESS
I'm looking forward to your next movie :F but seriously, great vid.
Waiting for your response regarding the counter argument she made about the 1808 concert, which needed to be 7 hours long according to your theory...
Great video. You do look a lot like Tom. Lovely, gracious response to her. I am a retired physician. At age 16 I had to choose medicine or music. My music interest surpassed my skill on piano, flute and organ. All through college I studied very hard long hours. The only piano I had access to was horribly out of tune. No time for that. Got the grades and got into medical school. This was 8 hours of classes and then 7 hours study. This time requirement looks like conservatories time commitment. Now I have a piano and lessons. My feelings are so labile ...sad my old skill is so lost. How slow recovery of skill with my arthritic fingers. Short and stubby with lack of an octave on the right... no need the litany. I so much respect you thorough reading of old documents which had never heard or to glean ideas to discuss. Tis hard to go against the usual stream.... to see things differently. Medicine has the same difficulty with much needed calm, thoughtful discussions of diagnosis, treatments or even forgoing aggressive measures when a life is judged to be short and a body frail. I could go on. Your calm reassuriing video with a sense of humor is wonderful. She fought so hard to get to her level. All the while in a rigid demanding even dictatorial system which blasted her with the not so subtle message that a woman just cannot do as well as a man.... it is hard. ( My experience was like this.) You called it correctly.
I am sorry to bother you, but could you kindly explain how to solve the contradiction on the duration of the concert Lisitsa has just pointed out?
play fewer pieces, but giving the proper attention to the remaining ones?
@@fcouperin I thought it was well known that concerts, even as recently as the first half of the C20, lasted for absolutely hours and hours. I didn't quite understand why she thought a 5/6 hour concert would be unusual.
Actually, if you think about it, it's still not unusual nowadays. Rock bands will often do a two hour set, after one or two support acts have played. But the people who go to hear them tend to really like the music, and I'm not sure the same can be said for a lot of classical audiences who get bored after an hour and a half nowadays.
Well, how much time do you spend at stadiums at the Olympics? How much time do people spend at the Superbowl? How much time do people spend at a baseball game? How about the world cup finals? there are many things that are all day events, many concerts and benefits are longer than 8 hours. celebrations of all kinds are all day events. People take breaks, go for an intermission, come back. Who knows, perhaps music was played with breaks in between movements.
All I'm saying is... the right question to ask is not how long a musical piece would last if it was played at that temp. The right question to ask is: "What is the right tempo that composers intended?"
@@richardsmith8094 because it's said to have lasted 4 hours..
@@vito-lattarulo Old concert programmes from the turn of the C20 in the UK. And sorry to burst your bubble, matey, but I'm not a double beater. I mainly come to Wim's channel because I love his clavichord playing....plus the comedy value of people getting in a froth. I used to get in a froth too, back when I was a grad student, but nowadays I realise that nobody ever died from music. Apart from Lully of course. Have a great day.
Omg it IS Tom Cruise! 🤣
If she can play it quickly, she can play it slowly!
The TV Mission: Impossible Theme is in 5/4 composed by Lalo Schifrin. Electric bassist Carol Kaye worked closely with Lalo Schifrin, playing on the theme to Mission: Impossible and also for the Soundtrack of the Movie Bullitt. However, Wim Winters does not resemble Steve McQueen.
Mr. Wim, your channel drew me in with its clear presentations of historical research, and there are many great videos on the channel. I dislike the so-called "super virtuosos" just as much as you do. However, if you listen to Serkin or Schnabel, two of the most well-known and highly-regarded Beethoven interpreters of all time, you will find that neither one slows down the bars you discuss. Why don't you engage with these recordings instead of cheapening your message by picking on low-hanging fruit like Lisitsa? The fact that you say "all pianists" slow down these bars exposes a narrowness in your listening that your audience will pick up on eventually.
Very true, Gilels doesn't slow down either.
@@DJStefandeJong Wim's argument is entirely based on the idea that performers can't PLAY the 32nd note due to technical limitation. The counterargument is you can find some pianists who CAN. Wim has made good arguments in favor of WBMP but this Beethoven sonata isn't one of them.
Mission: Unbeatable. 😎
You were very respectful to her, bravo. Our business is full of strong convictions and it's part of what we have to do to put ourselves out there on the stage, either as performers or academicians. As an opera conductor and former pianist, this discussion of period tempi and metronome marks is something I struggle with in opera all the time. We hear stories of Mozart's leading the orchestra, and how fast it was at times (supposedly the first Prague version of Giovanni came in at 2 hours.) The tenor Michael Kelly's first autobiography (his years with Mozart) document the rehearsal process during Nozze with Mozart onstage working with the cast and yelling down to the orchestra to correct tempi. When you take the tour of Teatro San Carlo in Napoli, they explain how Verdi/Bellini/Rossini and other composers were obligated by contract to sit thru the first 3 performances of their premieres to make sure tempi were correct. You can read Gossett's explanation of how during Verdi's lifetime his friends and assistants attempted to go back and put metronome marks in scores with Verdi's approval to correct errant performances. In opera we have the advantage voices move at certain tempi that suit them, plus an allowance of more rubato and variability. I believe things did slow down as the orchestras got bigger, louder, theaters larger, and singers were forced to project even more over that wall of sound. However by 1920 Puccini complained that singers and conductors were taking his music too slowly, and if you look at Toscanini's tempi for Boheme you understand how the faster lighter more "spoken" approach works in the smaller European/Italian houses. Strauss said the same for Rosenkavalier, as Solti in his documentary described Strauss told him. So much depends on text, language, inflection and theater acoustics, and a good opera conductor is really like a train conductor turning a curve, making micro adjustments from cast to cast, theater to theater, to adjust the sound to fit. Italian opera moves, German opera sits back...it all comes from how the language of each shapes the phrasing.
I have watched this yesterday and I have some many conflicting ideas. I will approach this with the insight of a translator. Often, the source text is regarded as "sacred" as though it had no flaws. The same goes for composers' work. It's always regarded as sacred text not to be tampered with. The tempo issue doesn't matter to me much as a listener if the musical idea is rendered in a convincing way and in such manner that I can enjoy tone colors and expressiveness. You can write your own text but when it comes to translating it, it'll be much harder than writing a new one in that target language. I don't mind that today's tempo is different than Beethoven's time. Instruments changed dramatically, tastes as well. Is there some principle or law that says it's illegal to play faster? All that matters to me is the musical idea: clarity, expressiveness, tone color, and a sense of cohesion between the composer's intent and the final output. I can feel it when a pianist doesn't get it. When you look at Liszt's Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude, some pianists just rush too much and finish the piece in under 15 minutes, but few others who really UNDERSTOOD Liszt and the poetic context surrounding the whole piece, which is a meditation at its very core. Martina Filijak stretched the piece to 20 minutes and what a joy it is to hear. We idolize Beethoven way too much that we lose perspective of what truly matters: the musical expression, pure and simple. I'm a fugue lover and I hate it when pianists play it fast; I want to see the fugal subject in big bold letters so I can discern how beautiful it is.
Haha you should've used the vault scene from the first mission impossible movie. That's a double beat masterpiece
So I recorded part1 of the Moonlight sonata at 30bpm and my teachers says "You can't play it like that, everyone will fall asleep".
What should I do if she will not accept it as "finished piece" unless I play it twice as fast? Which is perfectly possible for me.
They absolutely are right though. All these theorists seem to forget that music is in all of its freedom always ultimately intended to be listened to by an audience. Play the movement that way and they most certainly will find it boring. Whether or not you are bothered by this is for you to decide
You dont need to play 2x speed, you can play at a tempo between that. Do what you like musically.
@@classicgameplay10 Funny you say that. I have a 2 printed versions one came with a kawai digital the other with casio. Kawai don't mark MM at all, Casio went with q=52, which in my noob opinion sounds better than playing at 60 and not as gravely sad as at 30. Also thanks for the tip!
Very well handled Wim, with a refreshing maturity not often seen anymore. Well done
Heel netjes om gegaan met haar kritiek. Top! 👌
Valentina Lisitsa, on the description of her video of Chopin's Nocturne in D flat, Op. 27 n° 2:
"I dreaded the moment when I will get sick and tired of this sweetest thing ever written with its gorgeous but repetitious melody....
Then I had my "eureka" moment . it happened when I started looking at Chopin's metronome markings - in all other Nocturnes they were perfectly in sync with today's consensus - maybe little faster here , slower there... But this one - oh my God ! Lento Sostenuto marked as 50 beats per minute in half-measure ( 150BPM in eights ). You know how fast is it ???? Check-it out and see if you can keep up with Mr. Chopin LOL ..... i can't , I still play it waaaaaay under tempo .Let's see how many "critics" will leave comments saying it is too fast .....But , no matter what it makes a perfect sense- and suddenly my dread turned into astonishment at Chopin's genius.The whole piece is suddenly transformed from overly long sugary-syrupy chant to an exalted and impassioned speech"
I truly believe she misunderstood your video, Wim. She might have thought that you were criticizing her playing, or trying to get more views using her name or something.
Valentina Lisitsa plays this piece at around 24 dotted quarter notes per minute. Chopin wrote: dotted quarter note = 50.
This means that Valentina plays at exactly half of the speed proposed by Chopin... This gives evidence to the theory defended by Mr. Cruise.
Ha, ha, ha! So funny! WIm and Valentina, each one in their musical area, are champions!
Bravo, Wim!!
Are you going to publish a book about WBMP?
You can liken this quest to the quest of being a better person... It is never quite over. We can always grab deeper meaning. In this way we can constantly pay our respects to the composer... Whom took the time in his life and all his life efforts to create the things we take for granted.
Came here to find the next Valentina's comment.
Your videos keep getting more and more polished :-) It's unfortunate that Lisitsa felt the need to be so hostile. You handled it very empathetically.
Tom - it would indeed be useful for Benji to address the 1808 duration issue - or put a link to the video if you have done so before. More power to you.
great fun to watch and I totally agree with you on every point
Best video Ive seen in this channel! You, sir, are officially the biggest troll of "academic music" on youtube. And Lisitsa feeding you has produced this masterpiece, I couldn't stop laughing thru the whole thing. Please answer her bait on the 7hour long concert! Seriously, make more of this content and less slow-mo of Beethoven!
This is off topic, but do you still play other people's compositions? I have composed some pretty good pieces.
We said.
I hope that we will all remain respectful of each other as we continue our discussions and exploration.
💕🎵💕
'Humour/Chivalry' - I concur! - Well replied sir! Picking up from some of your dialogue; A theme constantly in my own teaching/playing is how much ''should'' we 'serve' the composer and how much are we ''allowed'' to do our own thing. One would think that with a view of more freedom than our conservatoires would 'allow' I might not like being 'told' that it 'should' go 'like this'. However, I have taken much away from your channel - and while there are examples that make me go 'mmm' (and I am open to this being a result of my 'conditioning') there are certainly more that make complete sense. However, regardless of the 'truth' I am open to a performer playing how they like - as long as the context is there, and musical reasoning. Horowitz celebrated in being an individualist, and GG certainly put his own spin on things. I like his Brahms - congrats Bernstein for running with it (well, - walking). I also believe a good many Composers are a good deal more open to interpretations of their works than Conservatoires are. Though on the other hand; reading contemporary accounts of Beethoven's tempo fluctuations you would be laughed of stage if you followed his example today...
I think my vision of performance freedom with a context of historical research is something you share to at least some degree. My central belief being we should not be turning out clones, and of course not meaning that we ''shouldn't'' pursue 100% authenticity, and even acknowledging that authenticity might be our principal benchmark.
Bruh classical piano community is on fire with drama. Shots fired
I love your sense of humor. :)
The influence of The Public on the artist and thus on the always developing tradition of music practice is undeniable and heavily underestimated. This is what I learned from this video and I am convinced on that.
Could you give us a piece of evidence for your suggestion that Liszt had decided to quit public performance, because he felt he was being pressured by the audience to play faster than the composer had in mind and he was willing to?
I found something Valentina said in her first post very interesting and compelling. If the works are played with your metronome method, how long would a performance last? I then began thinking about ballet and opera, written in the same period with the same metronome markings. How long would those take and/or how would they sound? What would be the requirements of the choir in Beethoven's 9th for example? Might be worth checking historical performances to get an idea of start and stop times. For instance, an opera starting at 8pm and lasting 6 hours instead of 3 would sound unlikely.
the asnwer to that is coming :)
@@AuthenticSound Is the answer already uploaded? Thanks!
I think the only value of Authentic music for someone like me (a non musician who listen to music to enjoy it) is its historical value. I enjoy different pieces in it's non original tempo and when I compare it to authentic ones, I still prefer the non authentic version. But visa versa is also true, I've listen to your version of a piece of music and I hear something different that I couldn't hear before. Like your example with the Beethoven moonlight sonata 3th movement. All in all, I think your discussions are very interesting.
@Андрей Бахарковскй Andrei, are you being paid at least? 'Cause you're wasting in UA-cam comments what could have been your training time.
Love your sense of humor!
I just fell in love with this guy ❤️
Your willingness to try to understand the motivations of the opposition are commendable, as is your refusal to simply repay insults with more insults. One of my favorite performances of Beethoven's 5th is Proms 2012, Barenboim conducting. It is considerably slower than basically every recording I've ever heard of it. I prefer it so much that it's actually annoying to listen to much faster versions. All that said, even if you're right about everything (and you may well be), what Valentina does is exquisite art, and I wouldn't have her do it any other way.
Can someone give me a source/list, where I can find the metronome marks of the beethoven sonatas uncommented? With a simple google search I do find nothing except articles about the metronome indication problems with Beethovens music. I especially want to know the indication for the Pathetique sonata, to experiment myself... And also: WHY am I not able to find it on the internet?
if you dig through the videos on this channel you'll find many, and their sources, too.
most are not by the composer himself, but by Czerny, i believe. (maybe search for Czerny editions of scores on IMSLP?)
but Beethoven did leave a few as well.. most famously for his 'Hammerklavier'..
You can find them in the appendix of Marten Noorduin's thesis on Beethovens metronome marks.
Archive . org and search for Czerny Op. 500
Thanks, Ill check it out!
Your mission target is super-human, Mr. Hunt.
She had the capability to crush you with pure speed.
i feel sorry for Valentina and all those who are trained in such an extremely harsh manner (actually abusive, let's not kid ourselves)
It seems that some people can
not fill the gap of decency from studying 15 hours a day for their whole life.
Wim, your on fire🔥😎👍
On a very serious note (:D), what a world it would be if some of these guys took you up on your offer for coffee.
Maybe he should hold back on the offer, if he gets popular he'll have people knocking every day.
@@surgeeo1406 Wim is GOOD people! I wish I lived closer!
I also urge people see this video to the end first and not to write any offensive or / and abusive comments on her channel.
This was great, have you seen the video response that Bachscholar did about you?
The intro cracks me up 😂
MISSION PASSED!
respect +
Istg even this part of the internet is having drama.
There is one thing I don't understand about your theory, why would musicians in the late 19th century begin to play faster? Why would they throw away the tradition of writing their metronome marks in double beat? We can clearly notice composers must have abondend everything they knew about tempi and began a huge revolution. But we don't we find evidence of this in e.g. Liszt's letters, or in his book about Chopin. What about Liszt's arrangement of Beethoven symphonies for piano solo, why are the metronome markings there in single beat? He was Czerny's pupil, so he must've had a lot of respect for B's music, so why would he change the tempo so much?
Also, I checked wikipedia, and I found written evidence of the fact Liszt didn't include the Hammerklavier in his famous 1836 recital. If you're interested, I will send you a link.
If you can answer these questions and give me written evidence, I will believe your theory.
ua-cam.com/video/9Nx09pigZRI/v-deo.html an insteresting video, Bernstein explains metronome mark numbers in the first minutes.
And the 1808 concert suggested by lisitsa was WELL documented at 4 hours and it contained 5th and 6th symphonies, 4th PC, and choral fantasy, in total around 2.5 hrs of music but with TWO intermissions and just general tuning and time between movements I’d say it adds up correctly to 4 hrs; but with wims theory 5th and 6th would take close to 2.5 hrs, so it’s a very valid question to be answered-he must not shy away!
Grand context , Ravel's La Valse , a predictive piece , the end of the Romantic beginning in pastoral peace , becoming a mechanistic dystopia by degrees , and here we are with Robocop among us , Schwab and Gates telling us what our transhumanist future will be . Mechanistic metronome or Russian soul ... I'll go with Valentina
I'm a very beginner piano player and the only thing that I have to say is: Maybe, Beethoven played like a child much more faster than she. Maybe, Liszt move his hands in a super-human speed without making sound of the keys to practice dynamics just for fun. Maybe Czerny is right and you just don't get it. No one knows, it's not because you can't "hear" the logic, that the logic (musically) isn't there. That's my opinion. Some time ago, it's was impossible to a "human" reach the moon, or even talk to person on a long distance. It's an error think that humans can't do this or that just because "we" think it's not possible, but every effort to step to the future of music is valid, and I can't invalid yours, so I wish you best luck, for real 🙏🏻✨
(0:12) I wonder, does the control panel's text add to the climax being in Russian?
Complete with the use of (Lalo Schifrin's) theme music that's in 5/4 ... Splendid!
Of all the communities available to us there is not one I would want to devote myself to, except for the society of the true searchers, which has very few living members at any time. . .
- A letter from Albert Einstein to Max Born, quoted by Born (1971)
We trust that Ms. Lisitsa is of this mindset.
Fred
I think Lisitsa is frustrated about not having the credit she deserves! These days it's not just about skills ... it's more about advertising and stuff. and also the current trend of music is shifting to bullshit you know ..
despite her technique and virtuosity, she cannot do it.
Anyway, her response was quite disappointing.
finally, thank you for your work. please continue
I mean, I did see her single comment passing by... Was there more to it than that?
where is the comment ?
@@classicgameplay10 Umm... One one of the two videos about her, I guess?
@@surgeeo1406 i looked and didnt fint it.
@@classicgameplay10 Then... it didn't happen... 😂
I don't know, this video should clear it up... Maybe it escalated and had to be... covered up...
@@surgeeo1406 like a secret ? State secrets ? I see, I see.
I think it is my duty as a music historian to show all you people the following 2016 paper by Ekaterina Korlikova et al: “Metronomic subjectivities throughout several levels of proficiency and their effects on musicians personal lives : A restrospective study “. It will certainly shed light on some of your preconceptions and perhaps settle this dispute once and for all. You can thank me later.