Superman II & Richard Donner Cut (1980) Retrospective / Review
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2012
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Superman II & Richard Donner Cut (1980) Retrospective / Review
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Damn, Kidder nailed that scene at the end with Reeve.
Very true. And Reeves was excellent also. That was a sweet scene.
its a very mature scene in a superhero movie
Yes indeed I really felt her pain. She represented the emotions of every woman that could not get her man's full heart and time.
Scenes like this make the Lester version so good. I hope Warner Brothers remasters a new balanced version of the Donner and Lester films, or at least include it as a special feature for an upcoming release. I believe the fans would love it.
Very emotional. I just wish he'd given her a little crystal to put her memory in, rather than bringing back the hypnosis-kissing power from the '60s. Do you suppose he kissed Jimmy to make him forget he was Superman after the _Supergirl_ movie?
Just thought I'd point out that Superman 1 and 2 did not shoot back to back like the Lord of the Rings and other films. They were shot simultaneously, which is why Donner's cut exists, because he shot so much of Superman 2 before they had to stop shooting that film just so they could make the release date on Superman 1.
Simultaneous because Brando and Hackman's shooting dates were set and ALL their scenes for *I* and *II* had to be shot in those timeframes
lots of franchises do that I think. I know captain marvel's first filming was in endgame. even though the Captain Marvel movie came out first. Brie did an interview with Jimmy Fallon and talked about it.
Lord Of The Rings was shot simultaneously. I remember Jackson saying there were days where you'd have to remember the scene you were shooting in the afternoon was from the third, where the scene in the morning was from the first. Shooting on 2 and 3 did continue after Fellowship's release, and on 3 after Two Towers, but the 3 were all being shot from day one. Same on Pirates Of The Caribbean 2 and 3. When they shot the opening scene of 3 they didn't know if it'd be in 2 or 3.
BTTF 2 and 3 were shot separately as 3 was principally shot in different locations to 2.
Agreed.
According to all sources, Donner had almost 80% of his shooting script for “Superman II” in the can when he had to shift gears to focus on the first film.
Not to dump on Lester, I preferred Donner's scenes when I saw 'SII' in 1981 (even though I didn't know the behind the scenes facts and I hadn't yet seen the first film). Lester was working on a reduced budget to Donner and the producers clearly wanted a more light hearted tone. Donner may have gone over budget and schedule, but it was worth it.
Numinous20111 I just want to point out that approximately 40% of the Theatrical Cut is Donner’s footage. This includes:
All of Gene Hackman’s scenes as Lex Luthor
Scenes with the Villains that were too pricey to reshoot
& Both scenes at the diner.
There were two main editors, Stuart Baird (Donner footage) and John Victor-Smith (Lester footage). John Victor-Smith had the tough job of blending together scenes with footage from both directors shot years apart to look as if they were shot on the same day with the same team with no differences between the two. That proved impossible, especially with Margot Kidder. She has a fuller face in Donner’s footage and looks almost gaunt in Lester’s footage.
The Salkinds had not allotted enough money to shoot the bloody movie, leaving diner with no choice but to just do what needed to be done to make the film. The completed Superman The Movie speaks for itself. It will be a classic 100 years from now or 1000 years from now. We were all robbed of what could have been an even greater superman II.
@@ItsTimePictures My understanding is if Donner had more time, then the ending of Superman The Movie wouldn't really have one. Lois wouldn't have died, and time wouldn't be turned back. I read the script for Superman II this week (1977) and the loss of Marlon Brando's scenes was more detrimental to the film than the loss of Donner, unless you assume he would have stayed on for Superman III, which he might have saved.
It was SO WEIRDLY magical for me to watch the Richard Donner Superman 2 cut, because I have not seen the Donnor cut version my entire life until a few days ago. It felt magical, because it felt like Christopher Reeve came back to life from the dead to look young again, and acted as Superman in 2014!
Know what I mean? I told my girlfriend about this feeling, but she never understood what I was trying to explain.
He came back 'from' life? Don't you mean came back 'to' life? :P
Ahh! I meant he came back to life from the dead. My bad!!
Wolf from Wizard101 Edited it. Now, I feel better. :p
Brandon Nielsen
Gotta enjoy the humor of that miswording.
Brandon Nielsen Hey to me was backwards! Some weeks before the release of Man Of Steel i watched Superman 2 (Not Richard Donner) an i think it was pretty good i liked a lot, then when i saw Man of Steel it was like OMG its the same history but improved you know like 100 times better!!, all the efects that a person could dream to see in Superman 2 was on man of steel and for me that moment was magical like yours and i think it was so special because i have never watched superman 2 at that time
I just LOVE the Margot scene at the end. To me it ties the whole love story together. And therefore ties the whole movie together. Don’t get me wrong I love Richard Donner. One of the best director/producers of the last 50 years. But I’m a theatrical cut guy all the way on this one. Donner cut seems choppy. And the love story doesn’t work nearly as well. And that’s huge. Good video sir.
I'm more for the extended TV version.
I like the way Zodd talks to humans and Superman like a medieval knight obsessed with honour
John Williams did not quit because he had problems with Lester (or with Donner departing), he was simply committed to other film projects (most notably The Empire Strikes Back) at the time. In fact, Williams was so attached to the project he himself recommended Ken Thorne as his replacement.
that scene between Reeve and Kidder was fantastic! I hadn't seen that prior to watching this review. thank you.
The editing at the start is amazing, when he screamed father as the music kicked in was outstanding. Big fan of these videos.
Seeing this great character acting makes you miss Chris and Margot.
Superman II is actually my favourite Superman film.
Joe Horne Same here.
Joe Horne same and my most favorite movie of all time
Joe Horne same
It's actually my third. Superman: The Movie is my favorite. Man of Steel second. And then Superman II third.
For me it’s
1) Superman II directors cut 10/10
2) Superman: The Movie 10/10
3) Superman Returns 7/10
4) Man of Steel 6/10
5) Superman 3 5/10
6) Superman 4 4/10
Yes I prefer Returns over Steel. I know I get hate for it, sorry :(
Still think Donner's cut is the most epic and cool.
#Agree100percent 👍🏻
Walder Frey of the Twins. Agreed. Also, the theatrical is too much campy stuff. And the anorexic Lois lane in 2 then going back to healthy Lois lane threw me off . Also no John Williams is huge. Ken Thorne did ok but too tinny. Also having Brando back was awesome.
I agree. I no longer want to watch the Lester version anymore.
Agreed! The Salkind's, WB, & Lester ruined what could have been an even better Donner version if he had been allowed to finish his production.
@@GisherJohn24 NO John William's is definitely HUGE! Cannot be overstated!!
`Superman 2' was the movie which could've only been made by Richard Donner.. The theatrical cut only represented `the campy sequel' of the Donner's Classic,`Superman - The Movie'. The sequel had too many goof-ups & silly gags. Donner handled the comic book adaptation so well whereas Lester only added plenty of campy stuff to make it funny. Besides, Donner cut only showed the possibilities which represented the sequel in the raw form but it was a lot better than what we saw in the theatrical cut.
I agree with you 100 percent although I will give Lester credit for hitting it out of the park with the fight scene in Metropolis
@@demerit5 But it was shot in a very campy & hushed way. When Donner cut was going to be made in 2004, they had removed all that silly, slapstick humor of Lester.
@@demerit5 & the reason, why 'Superman' is still the most discussed and treasured film in the history of Dc Comics is that was it's unique presentation and the way it was brilliantly envisioned by Richard Donner & Tom Mankiewicz.
Thank you someone who agrees with my point of view. I loved the Theatrical cut originally until I saw Donners version straight after part 1, then i just completely changed my mind
Donner's vision was balanced, never sacrificing gravitas. His affection and esteem for the subject matter was integral for the film's success. Lester's attempts, while admirable and serviceable, just fall short. Great analysis on your end.
Terence Stamp is awesome! Stamp's Zodd is the only villain that can compete with Ricardo Montolbon's Khan. A very menacing villain. One must watch 'The Limey' to enjoy more of Terrance Stamp. George Lucas cast in in the Star Wars prequels where Stamp's talents were miserably wasted.
Fk off
Terence Stamp is REAL General Zod. Michael Shannon is Private PYLE Krypton version
Montalbán.
Agreed, Stamp is the only Zod. And I’m glad you mention that about GL. It does take a particularly bad actor’s director to fail to get good performances from Stamp, Macgregor, Neeson, Portman, Jackson and more. He’s an amazing creative talent and world builder, but doesn’t belong behind a camera, writing dialogue, or working in an editing studio.
Ditto on “The Limey” - Stamp is Terminator awesome in that film.
Superman II had the distinction of really making you want to see Superman kick somebody's @$$, something that the current MoS didn't really evoke. Zod didn't really come off as an egotistic jerk that need to be knocked down a peg. Maybe this is due to Terrance Stamp's acting abilities that his Zod is really one of the best super villains on film.
"This is going to be good."
Wow. See that woman stick her head out the window to laugh at Zod being spun around!
When Zod is yelling about Jor-El kneeling before him "and one day, your Heirs!" I always thought it sounded like "your ASS!"
A friend of mine actually cut that part out of his VHS tape (we don't swear and blip out as many bad words as we can from movies), until I told him it was "Your heirs"
I misheard the line like that for decades!! 😁😁
I too like parts of the Donner cut, but it does feel sloppy and incomplete. The redemption scene of Clark and Jor-El is top notch though.
that's because it is incomplete. he was able to shoot 70% before he had to stop and finish the first one. then he was fired by the idiot producers
***** fuck donner and fuck you loser
+IronDawg I agree. I've never really understood the criticism of this scene. Especially since it has one of the best lines of the movie. "Father, I've failed you. I've chosen a life of servitude in a world ruled by your enemies."
+IronDawg Even the Clark and Jor-El scene isn't how it is in the script though? Michael Thau didn't edit it as it is in the script, where Jor-El blasts his son with lasers from his eyes in order to rejuvenate him.
Or the lingering shot of Clark's body glowing afterwards (a black & white photo of this shot exists online however?!)
MGSBigBoss77 the redemption scene sucks fucking balls and so does the Donner cut/fan edit.
Oliver, you are a god among men. You always give me something to watch during my lunch breaks at work!
For years, and I mean decades, I thought Zod was saying “You WILL bow down before me. Both you... and then one day... your ASS!”
Huh.
I thought that when I was a kid too, haha. It cracks me up every time I watch that scene because I remember thinking he said "ass"!
ME TOO! I was 11 in ‘78...
I wonder how epic Christopher Reeve would've looked playing Superman with today's advanced CGI capabilities...
He would be epic.
well he is epic as Superman but you get the point.
walka112
The point wasn't that he looked like Superman. The point was that he looked exactly like Clark Kent.
Just as bad. Reeves was a bad actor and not built like Superman.
Yes, Henry Cavill is an amazing actor! Way better! **eye roll**
I preferred the Richard Donner's version of Superman 2.....
Lester’s version was better for me.... it made the Superman/Lois love story more romantic and more heartbreaking that they couldn’t be together. Him giving up his powers and all hell breaking loose explained why he could never give up his powess again. Her figuring out his identity and jumping out of a window was stupid!
repowering scene more than makes up for it
@Jack The Film Fanatic Umm what? The ending of Superman the movie IS the ending of Superman II, it was cut from that movie's film reel and added to Superman the movie when the producer's decided to stop filming the rest of Superman II until they knew if the first one was going to be a hit. So Superman II stole the original movie's ending, that's why the Donner cut had to "recycle" it as you put it.
@Jack The Film Fanatic That's a possibility but Superman is aware of this as well so he would intercept any missile that was on a collision course with the Phantom Zone. To apply your logic I have to apply the logic of the characters as well.
The Donner cut was crap. I seem to remember that Superman left Lex Luther to die in the arctic in that one. Would Superman really have done that? I don't think so. It was so stupid.
i prefer the lester ending because the donner ending, superman really doesn't learn a lesson. all he has to do is turn back time and fix everything, and he can do that whenever he wants. but by wiping lois' memory, he's biting the bullet and sacrificing his chance to have a happy/normal civilian life
Yeah, but they needed a better way to wipe her memory
The lesson is in Donners cut. His dad died for him again.
Who knows what scenes Donner would have changed from the second version of the script with the Eifel Tower nuke?
A better way to wipe her memory would have been for Clark or Superman to give her a crystal, so we know that's it's tech and not a superpower, or as someone said seeing it as a kid, he thought he cheered her up with a kiss! I'm still waiting to see the version where Clark kisses Jimmy to make him forget he's Superman after learning it in _Supergirl!_
As a kid, I never really understood that when Clark kissed Lois at the end, all her memories of the events of the movie were erased. I guess I thought the kiss had merely reassured Lois (she did say "Just tell me you love me", and that's what he kind of did), and that Clark had to start acting goofy again, and Lois to act not in love with Clark, because a co-worker came in. Then when Superman IV came along, and the hokey amnesia kiss was reused in an insultingly arbitrary fashion (and less subtly), I finally got it.
(Of course, I didn't know what to think of Superman being so sweet on Lana Lang in Superman III if Lois was still in on his secret and still in love with him, but who cares, it was freakin' Annette O'Toole!)
She was great, even though not the same actress as Lana in _Superman._ Their relationship was probably the best thing about the movie. Lana likes Clark. I keep wondering how it could work. She's the one more likely to wait at home in the country for him than Lois does in the remakes. With Jor-el out of the picture, Kal-el gets to be his own man and decide for himself if wants to keep company with a mortal (or immortal if he ever meets ♪Wonder Woman♪)
Donner had some cool stuff going on in his Superman II, but I still prefer the Lester version. It made no sense in the Donner version for Clark to go back to the diner bully after turning back time, because at that point the first confrontation never occurred. In other words Clark became the bully. Superman standing on the flagpole outside the Daily Planet in Lester's version saying "General? Would you care to step outside?" is much better than Donner's "Haven't you ever heard of freedom of the press?" Of course they've never heard of that. They're from Krypton. Lester had the more exciting opening and ending credits. Ken Thorne did a masterful job with the music regardless what Mr. Oliver Harper says. Bringing up the tempo and even changing the music made the scenes more exciting. For The Fortress of Solitude what came after "And now..., kneel before Zod" was better served by Thorne's interpretation. I'm glad for the Brando fans they got to see him again, but I never had a problem with Superman's mother being involved. In fact Superman has a mommy too adds a nice touch of sweetness to the film. Seeing Jor-El give up his "powers" to transfer to Kal-El took away that sense of nervousness wondering if Superman would ever return to save the day. And when he does return once again it's Thorne that makes that moment more glorious. I could go on, but I'll stop here.
The point of being Superman is to inspire people to do good, like everyone in the diner together should stand up to the bully, not just Clark.
Reading the original script for Donner's Superman II, I feel that work needed to be done to make it less campy. I myself prefer the version filmed by Richard Lester, since it feels more like a complete film and felt more satisfying emotionally. Yes, the slapstick is a problem, but thankfully, it doesn't take over the film.
The kid falling for 30 seconds was ridiculous, they should have filmed him in a rowboat as the script had. If they cut the villains blowing New Yorkers and fighting Superman with new powers in the Fortress of Solitude, I'd be fine with that. I think they should have had Tokyo and Moscow on fire for defying them, as in the script, because it makes their rule something of a joke without it.
I had a made comment a while back about the Orchestra used in SII and SIII. I made the error of saying it had members of the LSO but in fact it was the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra which also contains some of the best players in the world.
You are correct. Both have amazing players. In fact they are the best in my view. Edit: You really have no idea how much I love your retrospectives. Thank you.
BunWackettBuzzard Thanks for feedback mate, glad to hear you've been enjoying my videos!.
Oliver, I have a question. Is the original superman 2 version on Blu-ray? Reason I ask is because my grandmother bought me three Blu-ray collection this Christmas ( superman, superman 2 Donner cut, & superman returns) and I was disappointed that to find that this Blu-ray release did not have the original. I was also a bit let down by the Richard Donner cut though it still fascinated me. But is the original superman 2 on Blu-ray?
XDJoker Ha Ha Recently picked up "The Superman Motion Picture Anthology 1978-2006" myself and it seems to be the only way to get the theatrical version of Superman II on Blu-ray (I don't think Superman III or IV have seperate Blu-ray releases either)
XDJoker Ha Ha yep it's on blu ray!
I love Superman II. In my view, this is one of the greatest sequels of a superhero film I have seen. Don't get me wrong; I enjoyed the first Superman film. John Williams' iconic score just screams the Man of Steel. Sorry Hans Zimmer, your synth and drums do not cut it for me. This will always be the definitive Superman theme.
I digress. But the ending of Superman one felt like quite a cop out. Yeah, I get the style, but flying around the planet is too hooky for me. Superman II was perfect in my view. It had great characterization. Fantastic bad guys and was just a blast. And while the effects are a bit dated and the acting does get over the top, that is just a nitpick. I still respect the effects used at the time and I do like the character.
And in my view, this was the last good live action Superman film. Great retrospective.
+Neil Ganti very true!
*****
sucked and sucked more
*****
cool. I actually have more time for returns than most do, but Man Of Steel still makes me angry till this day. I even prefer B v S to it.
*****
oh sorry, yeah I mean everyone is entitled to an opinion. ;)
If Warner bros doesn't take down the fan edit, they'll be in my good books, even if I don't see it. I like it when fans show their appreciation for an original movie and their creativity as well.
I like your review, very pleasant and Superman 2 is my favourite of the bunch. Christopher Reeve is a great person.
I just wanted to say I love your username :)
Go fly with superman again Margot! glad I got the chance to meet you, thank you for all the memories, taken to soon xxx
The richard donner cut was dark and serious compare to the original. But i like them both.
+PMRBonez88 Yeah, dark and serious with jokes about bedwetting and bathrooms is the proper way to put it.
yeah man
+PMRBonez88 Otis fumbling about was truly great drama
Zod murdering people in the White House is pretty brutal. Still prefer the Lester version
And better than Man of Steel
I cannot overstate how incredibly well edited and polished these reviews are Oliver. Absolutely amazing! You share a love for these movies that is seamlessly integrated into your reviews. I grew up watching these films and the information that is contained here is absolutely mind blowing. Keep up the great work!
Despite the use of rough footage I prefer the Donner cut story-wise, but enjoy both flicks when I watch them.
Which fan edit are you referring to and where can I find it?
I've come to the conclusion for years that the best possible version of Suoerman II would be a true combination of both Lester and Donner's cuts.
For instance, the turning back time ending of Superman II makes no sense since the fight scene is still included with the diner bully. It should have been erased.
I'd agree, but then I think there should be a couple scenes filmed.
1. The kid falling for 30 seconds was ridiculous; film him in the rowboat like the script said.
2. Shooting Clark with blanks or him tripping on a rug are both stupid. The former has already been shown that he could tell the difference and catch a bullet. Have her do something else to Clark like try to cut him.
3. Erasing her memory with a kiss is comics-accurate from the 1960s but dumb. Just have him give her a crystal to store her memory so we see it's tech and not a superpower. Would he kiss Jimmy Olsen after _Supergirl?_
@@sandal_thong8631 For sure the kiss is stupid but it at least makes more sense than reversing time lol. In fact, spinning the Earth in reverse and 'rewinding ' time as opposed to not causing global and gravitational catastrophe may be the stupidest thing I have ever seen in a movie.
I agree some stuff should've been re-shot but obviously it wasn't an option. That's why Lois pretending to shoot Clark is actually the actors' screen test footage.
All in all I'm still so happy to have the Donner Cut and I consider it true canon. The Lester slapstick comedy and absurd made up super powers are really cringe.
@@tryksta7247 They also left out Moscow and Tokyo fires for opposing Zod. Them sitting around being bored reduces the gravity of the situation as well as cutting Clark saying, "I traded my birthright for a life of subjugation on a world ruled by your enemies." We want them to look deadly dangerous and not silly.
The silliest part is using time travel before Clark gets his revenge on the bully in the diner. Now that he has undone history, nobody should remember the bully beating up Clark, so it looks like a random act of violence to everyone. But I felt that the time travel in general was an error, because at least in the first movie when he goes time travel it is done under the pretense of his emotional anguish at Ms Lanes death. Thus maybe it is something he can't do a whim. This movie makes it like he can do it at will.
VGatheist no one says they remember though. Clearly "Rocky" is a troublemaker as indicated by the diner owner when he says "Cool it Rocky I just had this place fixed... it cost me a fortune." The only one that actually vocalizes any recognition of the incident that Clark got beat up is when he says "Oh Ive been working out". Yes there is some look of astonishment on the diner folk, and it could be a continuity error that they remember. However, its just as easy to believe that theyve never seen Rocky have the screws put to him like that. Usually the him being the bully. Theres no actual proof they know of the incident between he and Clark. And theyre just happy to see Rocky get his comeuppance. Its not like Clark just went in there and whooped his ass. Rocky did throw the first punch so, its not really a random act of violence. You could posit that Clark saying "excuse me sir I think youre sitting in my favorite seat" and Rocky therein reciprocating it as a challenge... Rockys likely done that to plenty of guys. So just cuz he days "Come and get it four eyes isnt an admission of remembrance. Rockys a douche and a bully. Hes picked fights before. He welcomes it. So its immaterial that he welcomes the challenge... especially since he decides to throw a punch just cuz Clark says hes sitting in his favortie seat. lol Random act of violence it certainly is not.
VGatheist Exacly. In the first movie it looked like Superman had to get angry or just emotionally drivin to go around the world fast enough.
But in the Richard Donner cut they made it look like he could do it in his sleep. By that logic he should of just turned back time as soon as he got his powers back.
He served justice, which is literally part of his creed.
@@shellshock638 Maybe you could interpret the ability as something Superman could initially only do under intense emotion, only for him to later master the ability and use it for extreme scenarios. Think about all the damage done: Lois knew his secret, the Washington Monument was destroyed, and Zod and his goons were seemingly killed. Superman turning back time fixes all of that. Sure, it's a little repetitive, but it works.
@@nicholasperl1484 Not really.
If he can turn back time whenever he wants to then why dint he just do it as soon as he got his powers back.
Like why did he bother fighting Zod and his cronies in metropolis if he could have just turned back time and not even deal with them in the first place.
Love the pace and tone of the Donner cut, and I remember disliking the Theatrical version a lot when I last saw it. Only the darn time-travel ending troubles me significantly.
It doesn't fit after _Superman,_ which wouldn't have had a dramatic ending, just Lois lives, the nuke frees the villains and Lex is arrested.
'General... Would you care to step outside?' - goosebumps every time.
Margot Kidder looked so hot in Superman 2. She's the 70's version of Demi Moore with that throaty voice. The scene at 9:30 where she expresses her feelings to Clark just breaks your heart. Your right Oliver, such a scene would never make it in a modern comic book movie. Kate Bosworth and Amy Adams are respectable actresses, but they are given so little to work with. You really feel, Kidder's Lois loves Superman.
Amy Adams is to me one of the worst actress of all time.
Amen! She is the WORST Lois next to Bosworth. Adams sounds like a little girl in everything she's in PLUS when did Lois ever have RED hair? Adams should be Lana Lang.
I think one of the actresses for Lois in the 50's TV show died her hair red when the show went to color, apparently in an attempt to complement the new color or something like that.
For a long while I thought Margot Kidder was kind of squirrely -- not so much sexy as a competent pesk. Upon re-review, I've come to realize that Margot was indeed very hot. I agree with you that Kate Bosworth and Amy Adams are not just "respectable actresses" but convey their own unique sensuality. My favorite Lois is probably Teri Hatcher, although I never watched the Lois & Clark series. I saw a few bits. I never accepted Dean Cain as Superman (forgive me Dean). I don't know what it was. I think that by comparing Dean Cain to Christopher Reeve, he seemed kind of mousy. Anyway, Teri Hatcher carried the series -- thus it was aptly named Lois & Clark. For me, she carried the day. Just by my tiny sampling of the series, I thought, Oh, yeah, this is a Lois I would definitely want to bang. While Lois Lanes before and after Hatcher all have their merits, when it comes to pure lust...
Israel Rico How to tell Lois in Donner footage from Lester footage:
Look at her teeth. Whoever put caps on her teeth following Superman I gave her an overbite.
Superman II reminds me of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, both take what was good about the original and make it even better! Both films present an amazing and memorable villain, shows the vulnerability of both lead characters (Superman and James Kirk) and are simply more entertaining as a whole
I Totally Agree
Fine piece of work. I do believe in between Donner and Lester's versions lies the perfect Superman II. Both have their problems, but an amalgamation of both highlighting the best drama and technical qualities of each would be amazing!
I know this is just a movie, but at the end when Clark says to Lois "How did you sleep?" Are we meant to believe that Lois and Clark went back to work the very morning after the final showdown with Zod, like a couple hours later? I think what Lois and Clark went through at least one sick day was warranted.
Seriously their offices were destroyed badly. Lex even said the white house was so bad they'd be cleaning for months. Anyway I never got why clark & lois couldn't date he was hitting on her obviously being superman kal el as well ( reeve was brilliant how he really sold clark it wasn't just about the glasses hat & suit & tie his mannerisms his slouching his bumbling his voice was much higher & would crack. He really sold the nerdy thing. Superman obviously deeper voice not a bumbler great posture then kal el I noticed in scenes w/ brando he spoke very different very formal almost regal. Both him & brando spoke very similar. He called his adopted dad " pop or dad he calls jor el " father " best example is in donners cut when he tells him he wants out of serving humanity loves lois but the way he speaks it I can't explain. It's very posh very proper. Very different to how he as now clark w/ no powers talks to lois. He sounds like superman & talks the same. I still never got how that bully in the diner kicked clarks butt. He was still ripped much younger than that creep very tall & imposing. I know that guy took a cheap cheap shot when he asked him to step outside & the shoved him back turned into some plate glass. So he was already bleeding badly. Then he got up mad asked the guy to step outside & he just elbowed him really hard in the gut then grabbed him when he probably had the wind knocked out & decked him. Also I still really didn't get why clark & lois couldn't date. He had an apt in the city like her. He could take her on dates I doubt she'd tell anyone he was superman. As long as he wasn't walking down the street holding her hand in the cape who cares. I know jor el said for his sons safety enemies could use someone he loved against him but they could do that w/ ma kent or a co worker friend like Jimmy. I mean zod & lex figured out his big weakness was the whole world ! He cared about everyone. Maybe superman w/ the kiss of amnesia wanted her out of pain but it was only hrs before as u said so much went down. I mean clark dated Lana I think in the comics. Also I think maybe superman saw she only loved him b/c he was well suprrman. Took the woman flying above clouds as a first date. Also it may have bugged him later in the diner when she said " I want the man I fell in love with" which wasn't clark. She treated him like her pet. They became friends but she wanted the man who could fly & was like she said in her head he was like a god. I always felt so sad too he'd never talk to his bio dad jor el ever again to get his powers back. So he lost the only person from his home his life wss working & pretending to be a dork where people stepped on him or had to serve mankind. How lonely. Plus he was now mortal & zod & co on the loose he & everyone were in trouble. Esp lex leading them to lois. All I'll say is maybe clark & lois w/o his powers maybe he feared she'd dump him. She wanted the unattainable all powerful. Clark kent now as he chose to live as had the worst immediate rock bottom u could have. First off he was adjusting to feeling pain saying lol in the car w/ lois how his back was stiff. Then he has his one night w/ her finally they are just starting their relationship he gets beaten by a creep then learns his father's enemies have taken Over the world. I'd say that's rock bottom as it gets on like his first night as a mortal. Maybe it would have been OK if zod never returned & that bully didn't beat him. Some poster cracked me up saying " lous couldn't give him.a lift back to the fortress. Poor man bloody beaten eating snow for survival couldn't even hitch a ride ( poor guy was used to flying!!)
Lester's best contribution to SII is the ending scene between a heartbroken Lois and Kal-el. "I like worrying about you" "would you stop. Don't you know that this is killing me?!".... Clark places hand gently on her shoulder. Very tender.
I always liked this movie, it was the first time I ever saw a superhero fight someone who was on a similar power level. you stuff that was always in the source material.
I can’t decide which cut I like best. Both do things better than others. The ideal cut is somewhere in between for me.
Had the pleasure of addressing Terence Stamp as General Zod in person, what a nice guy... He looked at me and intoned "kneel before Zod!!"
I think i prefer the Donner cut mainly cos it gives us more of Marlon Brando. However i prefer the opening and ending to the Lester cut but overall Superman II is still an awesome movie and definitely my favourite Superman movie. Great review BTW Ollie!
+Isaac whittaker-dakin What I liked about the Donner cut are:
(a) the way in the early stages of the film Lois gets an idea that just maybe Clark Kent is you-know-who (which in turn meant the removal of her suspicions being aroused after the incident with the boy at the waterfall that occurred in the Lester cut) - although I did not quite like the way she tested whether he was or not because “Clark” clearly used heat vision in a populated area (by comparison there was hardly anyone around in the Lester version, and you do see him quickly do a double-check to make sure no-one is watching before using heat vision).
(b) the way Superman got his powers back; to me it just made more sense in the Donner version.
i agree with b in the Lester cut you do wonder how he got his powers back
"This is how the score should sound properly" *Ad*
Easily my favorite Superman movie ever! It cranked everything up to 11! From the action to the themes to the entertainment value to the story to the emotions, EVERYTHING! A very fun ride! A Masterpiece!
I love that your videos aren't just reviews but actual retrospectives with all the history of the production, impact of the film's release and the legacy, along with insightful opinions. You're a rare and welcome breed on youtube. Keep up the fantastic work!
hey there, if you check the description box below the video there is a link to the editor ' Selutron's' work. :)
For me part 2 has always been more memorable than the first.
Is it just me? I've always heard that one line as "You WILL bow down before me! First you, and then one day... your ass!" XD My immaturity aside, great retrospective as always.
Love your reviews! Very informative and well written. That little montage at the end of this video was really good by the way.
Christopher Reeve gave heart and soul to superman. He'll never be replaced! 😀👍
Brilliant, insightful, articulate review!
Having been at the theatre at age 13 in 1978, after having not merely watched but been completely *transported* by Superman: The Movie for just over 2 hours, seeing those last words "Next Year Superman II" was the only consolation I had when leaving the theatre after a movie I never wanted to end. Part of the reason for this was on account of some very good articles about Superman: The Movie I'd read in 'Fantastic Films', a sci fi movie magazine back in the day, in which Margot Kidder described scenes that were never shown--I was WAITING for them, only I realized later on that due to the fact they were shooting 2 movies at once, Margot was inadvertently dropping what we now call "spoilers". Never mind, the problem persisted in that they never appeared in the theatrical release in 1981 either (some 18 months late of their promise). All those beautiful stills in yet more magazines of scenes that didn't happen. Grateful as I was (now aged 16) that we finally HAD a Superman II, the overwhelming magic and wonder Donner managed to create in the first movie was painfully absent. And after having listened to my 2-disc soundtrack of Superman: The Movie more times than can ever be counted, playing my oboe and the piano along with it, it came as such a bewildering disappointment that there were to be no more original genius-inspired creations by John Williams, just recycled Superman music from the first film, played by less of an orchestra conducted by someone I'd never heard of. More articles revealed the tensions between the powers-that-be and Richard Donner, resulting in the Richard Lester takeover. I can sympathize with the individuals involved, having been thrown this huge task and can respect that they did the best that they could. But some of the continuity in Superman II (Lester version) just sucked. When Lois Lane is abducted by the Phantom Zone villains out of the Daily Planet office, her hair is long, straight and black; when she's being flown on Non's back to the Fortress Of Solitude, it's shorter, auburn and curled. How does that happen? And Clark Kent trips on a pink bearskin rug and loses his glasses? He'd have kicked the head off that stupid thing and sent it flying through a wall--Man Of Steel, remember? Bullets bounce off him, but a fun-fur sends him to the floor? It became evident that this was an alternative script, inferior to what was originally planned. Here is a link to the Superman II script as it was meant to be; if only all the scenes had been filmed, now all but impossible as Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder sadly have both passed away. I doubt even the CGE magic that made Princess Leia young again in Rogue One can be utilized for two people that just aren't there. This would have been a seamless continuation of the epic fantasy that made Superman real as never before, truly convincing us that a man could fly... www.bigapricot.org/scripts/superman_2-mankiewicz.pdf
very, very impressed by the thoughtful, thorough and respectful nature of your documentation, cheers
The funny thing with The Richard Donner Cut is that it's proof we should have gotten a better Superman II (and perhaps the first film could have been better too i.e. no more of that turning the Earth backwards). As for Lois knowing Clark is Superman, how about this idea, why can't Lois just KNOW Clark is Superman? That was one thing I loved about Man of Steel; Superman doesn't wipe her memory and she just knows.
@@mattirealm In Smallville, Pete, Chloe, Lana, Lois, Green Arrow, and a few other meteor mutants know who he is. Even Lex, Lex's half-sister, and Lionel, eventually learn it. But Lex gets his memory wiped, and the other Luthors either died or ended up being somewhat good or useful to Clark's team.
Just watched this and when I heard the guy say.......well have to wait and c the man of steel, I wa like "WTF" then i noticed this video is over 7 years old lol
I find, that by watching both rather close together (maybe over a weekend), you create the cut that you prefer in your own mind. Selective memory.
In my opinion, it’s one of the great tragedies in American cinema the way things broke down between the Salkinds and Richard Donner. A supreme case of “what could’ve been”.
I hate even talking about it. It’s like trying to discuss Ghostbusters 3 after Ramos died.
Theatrical on Blu Ray is great, I agree some silly Powers that are not comic book. But great movie, saw it first time around and have all versions on all formats. First one is my fave. I agree though, they need to make the final cut. Great review oliver
Is it wrong of me to say that the only reason why Lester's version did well was because he picked up where Donner left off? Look at what he did with Superman III? (Will watch that review) anyway great video... Will definitely be subscribing!
What Lester did with Superman III and II were different things. Superman II had a superior script and story. Not even Donner could've done anything with Superman III. If anything, Donner would've refused to direct it.
That's true. I just wish Lester took Superman seriously like Donner did.
Shannon Gold he wasn’t a fan the way Donner was. He did treat “Superman II” with respect because he knew he was finishing someone else’s work. Donner was able to show the film his way in 2006, or as close as possible. But I do agree that what’s needed for “Superman II” is a version that is the best of both worlds.
I actually liked Superman III, but I will admit Superman I and II were a lot better.
I lay the blame squarely on the Salkinds. Richard Lester is a competent director, but he was just doing what the Salkinds asked him to do. The bad decisions all came down from the Salkinds, who simply didn't understand what they had with Superman.
Still one of my favourite videos on UA-cam! Probably my favourite of your Reviews.
Wow, I thought I was a big fan of the original SUPERMAN films starring Christopher Reeve and company, but Oliver Harper, you really show commitment! Your observations and comments are spot-on regarding the strengths and weaknesses of these films. I haven't seen your comments yet on SUPERMAN RETURNS, but I will share with you that I literally wept at the end of that film. Brandon Routh's performance was uncannily reminiscent of Christopher Reeve, and Kevin Spacey did an amazing job of amping up the wickedness of Lex Luthor. (Awfully tragic that he may have been drawing on his own inner demons.) Thanks for these videos.
Im hooked on your channel! thanks so much for these extremely well done reviews. These superman movies are my favorite since I was about 4 years old and your given even me a whole new appreciation. Its time to watch them all again! Whish is your personal favorite?
Great to hear you've been enjoying my work Rick. Superman The Movie is my favourite mate.
Everyone that trashes Man of Steel for Superman killing Zod conveniently forgets that he also kills Zod in Superman II.
Everyone trashes Man Of Sreel because the film was utter bullshit.
+Otm Shank Masterpiece.
Otm Shank No is wasn't Man of Steel is the best Superman movie period ...man use your 🧠
Superman 1978 is on of my all-time favorite movies, yet I did not hate Man of Steel. It went in a different direction that not everyone may be a fan of, but it was different enough that I could accept it as its own thing that doesn’t erase Christopher Reeve’s greatness.
With that said, Man of Steel on its own levels is a mixed bag to me. There’s a lot of things I liked about it (Most of the actors, the action scenes), but there’s also a lot of things that could’ve benefited from better writing. The darker tone is not a bad way to do Superman, but the film took itself a bit too seriously and did not have as much fun as it probably should have. Regardless of how serious you want to go, Superman should always represent some sort of fun.
And regarding Superman killing Zod, I had no problem with the idea if the movie spent more time on how it would affect Superman as a character having no choice but to kill Zod, and afterwards deciding to never kill again. If there’s anything to explore in darker fashion than the Christopher Reeve series could, that would be it for me. However, the film just kinda rushed into everything going back to normal. (To be fair, though, the Lester Cut of Superman II did that as well; after all that destruction in Metropolis we see the Daily Planet back in full swing once the Zod gang is axed off. That doesn’t excuse Man of Steel, but it’s worth noting)
One more thing: the product placement. Everyone complains about it in Man of Steel, yet in 1980 Superman was thrown into a Marlboro truck and Zod was thrown into a giant Coca-Cola banner! Product placement rarely gets me and I enjoyed both of those fights, but how does Man of Steel get flak for it but Superman II doesn’t?
I strongly dislike Man of Steel. I hated their depiction of Krypton as a Lord of the Rings ripoff and It just wasn't any fun at all. It just generically follows that Nolan template for Batman which was all wrong for Superman. Jonathan Kent was hilariously bad as the negative - nanny of a father that has the ability to stand his ground calm as a huge tornado passes over him, lol!
I like the cast and I like Henry Caville as Superman, but this film was a borefest. Too much CGI destruction everywhere for half the movie made my eyes tired. The drab color bleeding left me depressed. Just an ugly film all around. Batman v Superman was WAY better.
I've seen a few of your reviews, but this one made me subscribe. Nice work!
Bill Marion Thanks a lot Bill :)
I love your reviews ollyh82. You grew up around the same time period as myself and you are spot on with your film critiques!
I recently found ur channel and immediately subscribed. I enjoy seeing the trailer first n all the wonderful insight. I grew up watching these movies and am a huge fan although the ending of S1 always bothers me. Superman is fast enough to circle the globe as to move the earth in reverse but he can't catch 2 missiles heading in opposite directions?! Even as a kid that bothered me immensely. I wish they would make a movie out of All Star Superman comics which have incredible writing n imaginative storytelling. Again, all praise for ur hard work Mr Harper!
I think Richard Donner is a great director and his take of Superman was fantastic but I cannot deny the elements Lester brought to it. I grew up on it. Everyone grew up on it. The damage has been done lol! It was meant to be. The Donner cut was an interesting experiment but Superman II as we all know it and love it, is shared by Donner and Lester and that is just the facts. I loved the fruit roll-up "S" scene. I've always been enchanted by its mystery. I loved the Non snake scene. Those beats Lester added were paramount to the imagination. I'd say that as a director, Donner is the master, but Lester did bring good things to the table and that's our history. I am grateful for the Donner cut, though, no doubt.
+Joel Booska Agreed. We grew up on Superman 2, and for a few years as a kid it was one of my favourite films. Before my Dad let me stay up late to watch Psycho : ) I think Lester was loyal to the whole spirit and it worked brilliant.
Joel Booska well, it is what it is, but we will never know how Superman 1 and 2 wouldve actually been had Donner been able to complete his vision... considering he had to take the ending to 2 and apply it to 1. Even with THAT variable, we have no idea what his version of 2 wouldve been either. It may be the Donner cut but he didnt have anything to do with assembling it, and undoubtedly if he hadnt been let go, it wouldve been different. As there were reshoots with a stand in filmed... as well as utilizing screentest footage as fill in... and he wouldve obviously had to create a different ending as well. One may prefer Lesters cut to the Donner Cut. But the Donner cut is only a close approximation to the original vision. Not what Donner actually assembled and executed to his full extent.
This is an excellent review from Mr Harper - I really do appreciate your honest appraisal of Donner and Lester's different handling of Superman 2. There can be no doubt that the loss of John Williams (and the London Symphony Orchestra) from the second installment was damaging; but Richard Lester was able to draw some truly excellent performances during his re-shooting of scenes with the lead actors. Those re-shot scenes were probably the reason why Christopher Reeve always stated a preference for Superman 2.
"They killed John Williams?! Now we got to use Danny Elfman." _Family Guy Star Wars.
This guy's soft-spoken, objective reviews along with the trailers generally get me excited to see the movies again. Went to Amazon right after watching this.
Thank you very much for your kind feedback. Great to hear you went out and brought the film after watching this!.
There are parts I like and dislike about both versions of Superman 2. I do agree with the guy who made this video that there needs to be one more final ultimate edition of Superman 2 that gives us the best of both worlds.
There's multiple versions: the 1977 script where _Superman_ ends on a cliffhanger, the script with the Eifel Tower nuke which I believe ends shortly after the kiss, the theatrical release, the 3-hour TV movie, and the Richard Donner Cut.
Love your reviews! realy honest and frank
Alan greenway Cheers Alan!
Very informative & a great video.
Superman 2 is one of my fave movies(i went to see it at the cinema 5 times in all!)so great to see more of the background & especially the fan-made clips.
Nice work.
I remember when Superman Returns came out, and I was already a comic fan but not a Superman fan. Not gonna lie, I got into the character because I had a crush on the actor from Returns.
That year for Christmas I got a 14 disc set of all of the (then five) superman films, including documentaries.
It included both versions of Superman 2, and I just remember being so much more pleased with the Richard Donner cut, despite the fact that it was a bit messy.
That was awesome!
Both cuts have their issues and the Donner cut needs more work done. But as i said they need to create a cut that uses the best of each version. Let us know what you think of the theatrical cut after all these years.
Come across your channel by accident and I'm glad I did, great retrospectives of some movies that I hold very dear. Very much enjoyed this retrospective, I love both versions for differing reasons and watching this has made me reach for the dvds once again. Keep it up bud.
always enjoy your reviews, thanks and keep up the good work
I do totally agree with you that we need an "ultimate cut" of this film, featuring the best of both Donner and Lester visions. Still, even when it feels like an unfinished product (which actually is) while watching, I do tend to favor Donner's cut over the theatrical release.
Thanks buddy, apparently warners spent the same amount of money on restoring Superman II and Blade Runner. I personally believe they had more talented people working on the Blade Runner project and more passion.
Michael Thau just wasn't a good choice.
watching Superman II on television right now and boy how much does he inspire hope in me. RIP Christopher Reeves.
Oliver you are the Superman of reviews, you are the greatest, and I love how you did James bond living day light review so much!!!!
Excellent review Oliver Harper, but i do disagree with your view points on editor Selutron's clips being supposedly 'high grade' and the best thats out there far as fan edits of films go (check out Adywan's "Star Wars Revisited" for that). I don't know if Selutron is serious about the 3 villains landing in Washington D.C. right from the get-go and learning about their new powers on Earth like he's presented in that clip.
What he should've done is basically tried to have recreated what was in Tom Mankiewicz's 1977 shooting script for Superman II and had General Zod giving out his speech from the top of the Washington Monument (taken from the East Houston sequences) and had Zod addressing the entire world prior to the Whitehouse Invasion scene. And what Michael Thau shouldn't have cut was the Derek Meddings SFX work he did for both films (The refacing of 'Mount Rushmore' by Zod and co.).
But you're right though Mr Harper, we can all create our own edits of S2 now given how powerful computers are getting and their incredible software programs on; Adobe Premiere, Final Cut Pro, Sony Vegas and powerful visual effects tools like *Adobe After Effects* (used in big theatrical Hollywood film). And with that in mind, people if their driven can create their own 'high grade' recuts of Superman 2 akin to what fan editor Adywan is currently doing with the Star Wars films in retrospect.
Anyways, nice to see your previous Superman movie reviews in HD now, nice work man! Well done.
My apologises for the late reply. haha Im sure they're loads of other fan cuts out there and I imagine tons of Star Wars cuts!. I recently watched a fan cut of DUNE which was amazing but Selutron has managed to capture that feeling of the first film from the short clips he has created. Thanks for your feedback and Happy New Year!.
The moment Superman reversed time AGAIN, essentially undoing the ENTIRE movie, I officially HATED the Donner Cut! Nice review though! 👍
It was more meaningful in the first movie.
Great point
Superman the character only reverses time once. It works better in two.
S2 Donner cut is as originally intended. NOT how it would be if Donner finished it.
@@integrity101 , I think the time reverse works better in Superman The Movie. It adds an emotional weight to the film due to Lois' death, and it only undoes the earthquake. Using it to undo the entire story of part II was never a good idea because it is an anti-climax that cheats the audience. I think that if Donner would have returned, a few of the scenes he had filmed would have been redone. And surely a new ending would have been created. As it stands, the Donner Cut is a sequel to a version of Superman The Movie that doesn't exist.
Your editing is sublime! I particularly live the montage at the end!
Thank you Illy for such a detailed review &look back.
Im glad WB learned there lessons and respected their directors after this *cough* Suicide squad and JL *cough*
These films remind me of some of the very best days of my childhood. An aside: getting rid of Donner was the worst thing they could have done. Lestor almost ruined the franchise.
If keeping Donner on _Superman II_ meant he'd be there for _Superman III_ then maybe he would have picked a script with another super-villain and not a Luthor wannabe teamed up with a comedian, and using less slapstick, and not having the sound effects from Atari Pac-Man. But if not, then the loss of Brando's scenes was worse than the loss of Donner.
The first two superman movies were absolutely wonderful. I get called an old man by my friends because I still believe Superman is the greatest super hero movie. I love these reviews, thank you.
Awesome Review! The intro on this is epic!!
love this movie
It just dawned on me when seeing this review after Lois was crying to Clark about being selfish about sharing Clark with the rest of the world. So I decided to make a comparison between Margot's Lois & Annette's Lana when it comes to Superman Lois loves Superman not Clark Clark to her was a klutz plus she was curt & dismissive to him. Lana was interested in Clark not Superman but had Clark told her who he really was Lana would've accepted him either way plus she would accept him for who he is while Superman is out there saving lives it is she he comes home to everyday to have the life he always wanted. Lois would've gotten bored with Clark after he gave up his powers no more flying I mean when she was crying to him about not knowing what to call him I'm like "Lois what do you want him to do give up his powers again for you? He has powers that he can use to help people his human dad told him that he was here for a reason." Imagine if Lois found out again that Clark & Superman was one in the same only this time he is happily in love with his high school classmate Lana Lang? Lois can either move on & find someone else to make her happy but she'll only settle for him because she can't have the man she wanted or spend the rest of her life alone being bitter, hurt, jealous, angry that she lost Superman to someone else because she couldn't accept both Clark & Superman. That's just my theory on the Superman movies with Chris, Margot & Annette not the other movies or shows.
Oliver, was the Superkiss scene at the end supposed to be the day after the defeat of Zod and the Battle of Metropolis? They really couldn't take a day off after all that???
I gotta tell you man.....That video was awesome......GREAT job explaining everything....And thought your observations were pretty dead on......Saw Superman 2 in the theater back in the day, and to this day I feel it is the best Superhero movie ever made......Hopefully they'll release a best of Donner/Lester cut one day.......Nice touch btw in putting in the entire magic kiss scene....Which is one of the great scenes in any movie to me.......Once again, fantastic job with your retrospective/review....
Superman 2 was the best super hero movie of all!!!
Find the Donner cut to be the inferior version. Took a lot of the grandness out of the adventure.
With Superman: The Extended cut (3 hours) finally getting a release on Blu-ray sure the Superman 2 Directors Remix is bound to happen.
I love the three hour version of Superman The Movie and I would dearly love to see Superman II get an "ultimate cut" that makes the most out of material shot by both directors. There is a wonderful edit just waiting to happen from all of the existing footage!
I don't agree with a lot of your points but you put this together sooooo well I have no choice but to admire you work!!!
Which points in the video didn't you agree on?
Ya know the ironically funny part of what Zod says to Jor-El when I first saw this. It probably wasnt until I saw closed captioning did I realize what Zod actually said...."You and one day your heirs!" THATS NOT WHAT I HEARD. I thought he said "You and one day your ass!" LOL