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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Tragedy in the EEVblog lab as the arcade machine releases the magic smoke.
Claytons repair time.
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#Repair #Arcade
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Somewhere around halfway through the video I had guessed the problem to be a bad solder joint. There were two clues to suggest I was probably correct.
The first was the horribly faulty solder joints found to early on. My experience has shown that when I find joints like that on a board, it's very probable that other joints will be faulty/suspect as well.
The second clue was the very fragile and intermittent nature of the faults. Some joint(s) "teetering" on the edge of conductivity.
Later in the video, I had a second guess that a transistor may be at fault. Thinking maybe spurious oscillations or ripple activity across a faulty p-n junction happening within the conductivity threshold region. I figured either scenario may make the transistor sporadically conduct.
Pretty much same for me, except immediately I suspected a faulty solder joint, about halfway I thought maybe it was the 16 pin or so IC...
Thanks Dave ! Even you can't find the exact fault but it is still an outstanding PSU diagnostic ever with scope and explaination thrown in it. Great video !
PC supply is a way to go since a cooler is an added bonus.
Re-soldering suspect joints has never worked for me especially in my early days unless I can see a physical crack and sparking around the joint :-)
Yet again, it's not a work of art so Dave condemns it as bad. Appearance is not everything, Dave. What a surprise. The joints on the main connector do not necessarily look dry at all, it just looks like too much solder has been used, and that does not affect the function. Some flux smells nasty and leaves residue; that's life. The IC is not obviously badly soldered, it's just that the flux has not been cleaned off so it does not look pretty, but those solder joints, upon first inspection, do not look suspect. You are getting a little too arrogant these days, Dave. Maybe have a refreshing look at your really old videos where you had a little more humility. You're very good at your thing; you don't need to show off. I don't disagree with your final microcrack / dry joint theory, but it's simply not often obvious. Electrolytic cap ageing is also a suspect. SMPS are often a complete pig to diagnose and fix. Most mass produced stuff is only just on the right edge of working; the components are getting hammered and it's all just nasty.
@@andrewhannay I try to narrow down the options first. That's an absolute last resort for me as touching around without intention has always lead me to more problems than solutions...
"Dry as a dead dingo's donger" has to be the most Australian thing I've ever heard.
Bloody oath mate. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie. Oi, Oi, Oi!
😂😂 One shock and im gone!
& after the wildfire
those power supplies are actually quite common in the arcade industry.
I work at an arcade in Maine (northeast USA), I've seen (and repurposed) a lot of those.
Yeah and they're cheap as chips.
Hi mate, some advice if i could
first a few questions
You say you WORKED in an arcade.
does that mean you operated the arcade only or you repaired machines as well
I'm interested to speak to you if you have in depth repair experience
and i'm happy to pay you for your time to speak
i'm not new to electronics , i would just like to get the opinion of one who has repaired machines before
I have an old Black and white knock off Space invaders cocktail table, Dual player
obviously goes without saying... Black and White CRT on board
it still works, no problem
it was gifted to me vs the client throwing it in the bin.
I've had a look around it, it seems like the caps could do with a replacing, all else seems ok
I HAVE 2 ISSUES
Initially the issue was
ISSUE 1 - Upon Start up it would start normally, Expect the V Hold and H hold would be screwy.
Now.. i have found 2 Pots inside that if i turn then, Obviously V and H Hold Pots, i can adjust it and it's fine
QUESTION 1 - WHY, AFTER SHUTDOWN DOES THE V and H hold gets screwy again ?
Now another problem developed
it happened once, i disconnected the (let's call it CONNECTION BLOCK) from the game board
and re connected it and it fixed the problem
Now the problem has returned and won't go away
ISSUE 2 - Unlike before, when the game now starts i don't see normal characters, i see Letters D's and T's Mostly i think.
as if... the game didn't load up correctly
simply put WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON LOL
so as you can see.. I need some input from someone who has experience with these things.
I could probably take a whole heap of time and go through it and find the issue, but it'd be cool to speak to someone with some experience as well
so.. is that you, or did you just run the arcade
or did you actually fix the machines
@@martinkuliza while it is seasonal, I *believe* I /still/ work at an arcade. I mean if I show up for work in April and they tell me to go home I'll know otherwise, but unless that happens, let's be gentle with Mr. Ed. He's old and doesn't need a full ado about nothing!
Barring unforseen changes, I am a tech and also an assistant manager.
Now. As to your other issues.
The horizontal and vertical issues are almost certainly dried out capacitors in their respective oscillator circuits. They are obviously designed to lock to the sync pulses in the input signal but in order to do that they have to be close to the correct frequency to begin with. Lots of tuned bits there: coils and caps. Any component that changes in value changes the frequency. A common failure mode of electrolytic capacitors, before they fail completely, is to become thermal: when they're cold, they're either low value or very high esr, but as they warm up, they start behaving more like capacitors again.
I'm gonna guess you've got a few caps that are drying out, and you're setting the h/v hold to compensate for whatever value they are while it's running, and then it's out of spec when they cool off.
The sync stuff is generic to all 100% analog raster displays, and hopefully helps. The logic issue, on the other hand, will be specific to that game board, but if manipulating the "CONNECTION BLOCK" (close enough. "connector," although there's probably a dozen and you haven't really specified which one) treated the problem before, I'd start with some electrical contact cleaner (deoxit) and a close inspection on and around said connector for bad solder joints.
@@emolatur
" let's be gentle with Mr. Ed. He's old and doesn't need a full ado about nothing!"
Understood... Do Lets
"Barring unforseen changes, I am a tech and also an assistant manager."
Thank you and now that Pleasantries are aside we can get to business
"Now. As to your other issues."
Precisely
"The horizontal and vertical issues are almost certainly dried out capacitors in their respective oscillator circuits"
I suspected as much, and i don't really need too much help on this front, the confirmation was enough
As for the rest
I was going to go around and inspect the solder joints ALL OF THEM with a microscope , very slowly.
My other guesses would be,
there are 2 boards, the bottom board seems to have the EEPROM's the top board seem to have i think (of memory) 8 was D.I.P. switch. and a few pots that seem to control the speed of the good ship and the aliens and the bullet speed and ship speed and alien speed and sound level.
i have 2 guesses why the screen Characters are filling up with D and T all over the place.
either something with the D.I.P. but.. i haven't touched it
or more likely, badly seated EEPROM's, in my mind it has to have something to do with the Character ROM doesn't it ?
that's what i've got so far.
I suspect maybe the ROM's may need reflashing, but GUT FEELING says, Likely that won't be necessary.
previously, it was working fine, other than the V and H hold
and i'd adjust a board that was mounted vertically a little under the Power supply and to the right of the monitor, there was a Pot there and that'd fix the Hold, other than that. the game actually worked perfectly
Player 2 button doesn't fire, but.. that's just a button replacement, Nothing to worry about,
it wasn't until recently that the game upon start up produces DT T DDDDTTTDDDTT
D's and T's
in some spots you can see half a space invader here and there
@@emolatur
Now.. I appreciate the advice.
it's one thing to do this on you tubel like this
would you be open to me paying you and us doing a zoom session or something
If your'e not interested, i understand
if you are , I appreciate it.
let me know your thoughts .
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Hope you can help a big kid get his space invaders going and thus retrubition for all those lost credits and coins
LOL over the years
speak soon
I'm a mad max fan, so
I REMEMBER A TIME OF CHAOS, AND I REMEMBER THE ROAD WARRIOR , THE MAN WE CALLED "MAX"
I also remember a time
WHEN WE THOUGHT AS KIDS THAT IF YOU SWITCHED OFF THE SPACE INVADERS MACHINE QUICKLY AND THEN ON REALLY QUICK YOU'D GET 50 CREDITS
LOL, We tried so many times
The rumous was
As you dropped in 20cents, Just as the 20 cent piece gives you the credit, you'd switch it off and on really fast while the owner of the arcade wasn't looking and you'd get 50 credits
NEVER BLOODY WORKED :P
I would so like to see Dave take on an authentic dedicated arcade game repair. Atari Tempest, Williams Defender, etc
Linear power supplies, vector monitors, raster monitors, gigantic game pcbs, oh yeah!
Arcade games just look better on a CRT.
Also giant soda can sized caps in some of them.
@@Membrane556 That never fail.
@@Membrane556 Atari's "Big Blue".
@EEVblog I nearly always find dry joints responsible for many of the intermittent faults I receive. They're often a pain to diagnose especially in power supplies around transistor connections, where cheaper components have tarnished legs from initial assemsbly. Removing the unit from its case, relieves tension on the board and sometimes makes it even harder to locate a fault. Like you, I find it's less grief to simply retouch all joints with leaded solder (pre-fluxed) and repeat the soak test. Thanks for sharing. 👍
11:10 Get a neon bulb and temporarily solder/wire it across the mains input terminals when testing.
When troubleshooting something intermittent like that, I like to poke every solder joint and component with a chopstick with everything powered up and connected to a load. Most of the time the problem will present itself and it's a huge time saver.
This is just as valuable as the ones where you solve it directly Dave. If only to make me (as a mere mortal) feel far better for my own troubleshooting nightmares
2:30 according to the green plastic guide allowing 2/4/8 ways for the joystick and the mounting screw holes, it looks like from Seimitsu (a reputed brand). The screwed buttons might be too.
I work with these supplies on almost a daily basis & it's not as old as you think. They are a clone of a design from the 80's by Peter Chou. Bad joins are the most common fault (especially on Wie Ya's & other chinese junk), followed by bad caps, open circuit resistors (anything 10K & above), or a bad TL474. Occasionally the mains input bridge or output transistors can also go bad.
7:51 you can see a crack on the solder joint for a component on the right.
so someone else did see it too. i dont know anything about soldering, but that was my guess too..
Nope, trick of light and shadow.
@@EEVblog I thought that too, but it looks like it'd make sense if someone pried out the fuse and knocked the cap next to it.
I've got about 6 of these on the shelf in my office. I've been a tech for a video arcade company for almost 30 years! Those supplies are still in use today! (Go with a Happ brand, I've had good luck with them) Well done. For those that are wondering: 12volt rail. Normally used for the audio circuits on certain games.
I'd guesstimate that it was near that PWM chip only because I disliked the look of all that flux and not seeing proper fillets is always a clue towards a more coldly soldered joint. That heat intermittent problem is actually pretty common in a lot of devices I've worked on. I do enjoy the hunt of these kinds of videos of yours, Dave. Good work.
Power supply for TL494 are come from big switching transformer (refill power after IC kick started), some slow start circuit or kick startup resister intermittently opened. VCC voltage supply higher than expected, was due to u have changed bigger cap value.
I'm working on an original Ms Pacman cocktail right now. Still has the the factory 7/12 volt AC power supply and CRT monitor.
Love it. Your videos inspired me to start my own UA-cam channel. Heatinggeeks. Tha ks for all you hard work and stay safe. I just fixed 2 PCBs on 2 heating boilers and up loaded it. Thanks Dave. Probably end up in your spam bin but anyway. 😊😉
Looks like a common Peter Chou copy. When I find these bad, I just replace them with new Happ or MW supplies. That's a standard arcade cabinet supply. Some games do require -5 and even a few have to also have -12v.
If the draw is only 2 amps or so, why would anyone choose a switch mode PSU over a traditional one? I recently constructed a 2 X 20 watt bass amp, I had a switch mode one just to try it out and only considered the build completed when I fitted a fat transformer, rec and capacitor. As I'm not too keen on chips in the supply line, I took some windings off the mains secondary to reduce the on load voltage down to 14V. The two UPC1230H2 bridge amps consume about 3A at full volume. Although there's no choice with tower PCs, the old style rectiformers are far more reliable for most purposes, as I'm sure Dave would agree. Nice interesting upload, Mr Dave. 🙂
You forgot the obvious percussive maintenance test before reaching for the screwdriver
A lot of these old supplies would require a minimum load to regulate. Is it possible that it was fixed after the first round of resoldering?
It's probably not that old, parts look fairly modern and the particular 494 clone in question wasn't out till mid-late 90s. The design is ancient but it used to be pretty modern all the way back then. It also shouldn't require a minimal load, i mean why, the 494 is a fixed oscillator design, so it should always be able to start and keep running just fine.
I always feel a bit uneasy when I can't really tell why a unit works again. But sometimes you just have to go with it an be happy.
I highly suspect the -5v section is not connected (ie doesn't work). The one I have doesn't have -5v but it is labelled and has a lug. The 60-in-1 board Dave has doesn't need -5v.
Problem is that schematic you was looking do not correspond to that power supply, it is close but that power supply is use same topology as old AT power supplies, it us BJT on primary side not FET and they have interesting way of starting, they start self oscillating (primary transistors with driver transformer (which have bootstrap winding on it, I am not sure that is correct English term for it, but it use current from main transformer to boost current to BJT)) and when control IC on secondary side get enough power it take control.
This AT schematic is more closer to that supply then one you was using danyk.cz/s_atx01b.png (only AT power supply have more complicated voltage and current sensing, but main power part is same).
Not sure about your area but replacement arcade machine power supplies like that one go for the grand sum of $20 in the US. Given the stupid low cost, it doesn't make sense to troubleshoot them too much. Unless for fun. Otherwise just replace and move on.
Thanks for breaking it down and showing the "fixed" 15V signal - that was going to bug me. :-)
I would have been tempted to flex the PCB on supports to see if its a dry joint, not easy to use freezer due to the HV around,
Also, if you (or anyone else) tries to "just use a PC power supply", beware of course that you have to switch it to turn on, then they like to be loaded down on the 12V rail, even if you only intend on using the 5V rail. (Some don't switch on unless they are properly loaded down.) "Trap for young players."
Definitely worth searching for "how to turn on PC power supply" or "how to turn PC power supply into bench supply" or something like that.
put that antique SMPS into your museum and chuck a new power brick.
A modern brick have much higher efficiency like class VI and saves your power bill.
Those caps look like they have spent some time in the parts bin. Wouldn't be surprised if that entire power supply was made of salvaged parts
Board, case, and heatsinks included.
A company would definitely keep stock/s of boards /modules to be replaced instead of repairing..on an otherwise sucessful working/running/selling product ..Hance the board & box looked new although the pcb was a 1984 design...
I do happen to have an LCD that can handle the 15 KHz signal. With a simple diode/resistor network, it's easy to get 4/16 color CGA video onto it.
I think I'd have replaced all electrolytic capacitors (they don't always bulge), resoldered anything that didn't look perfect, and then replaced it with a new power supply if it still wasn't playing ball.
If it was a permanent failure i'd have checked all transistors, mosfets and diodes as well.
Sometimes/rarely if you've got a leaking MOV in there after a bridge rectifier, you can get a voltage doubling effect (effectively the same an a voltage selector switch) which screws everything up and doesn't really give you any clues as to what is wrong unless it launches a capacitor off the board.
@ 8:18, Pin at right, Looks a broken solder joint... That can be a couse.
Troubleshooting step #1 - measure voltages. Step #2 - resolder crappy looking solder joints.
Did you have a load on the output when you were testing to find the issue? I would also put a small dummy load on the 12V output depending on the feedback design.
lol - i have very similar psu - same case, almost same schematics... it was almost burnt when i got it but i managed to fix it: replaced all e-caps, some load resistors and viola! it works just fine ;-)
btw - my psu is very handy as it have 5,12,24 and 48v outputs
3:19 I would have expected Dave to test the PS *without* a load, in case there was some short-circuit in the arcade board causing the low voltage.
Arno Dash 14 will probably rock on that machine ( a parody of Boulder Dash .)
Years ago I use to repair CRT TV's and I knew I had an easy repair when the customer told me that hitting the TV fixed the problem :)
Back seat driver here, what's the unsoldered pin without a pad near the 2 small transformers?
Ummm? Clearance? Shocking!
I've bought the same style power supply a while back because it was so cheap. When I got it I realized why.. many of the components appeared to be used/recycled parts, with the exception of the resistors. The larger rated resistors had leads that were just as thin as the 1/4 ones.. which seemed odd. Waste of 15$
Note, the grey power plug with fully exposed pins isn't good for Australia ;)
It looks like c1 0.1uF it had bad connection which you can see at the very first view of the board and you fix that joint later.
Can you shoot it with an IR camera to see which component is drawing too much and heating up?
I had a strange fault like that on one of my study projects and sometimes it worked propperly and sometimes it didn't ... until everyone was totally stressed out when I realized that every time it didn't work properly I was touching or holding the PCB. Thats a way to get your instructors boiling when 12 groops finish their project in time, but you keep them locked in the lab with a perfectly avoidable error :D
Also happens the other way round. A colleague had a fault like this. Two boards communicating over a bus. One day it worked, next day not or only sometimes. Turns out he didnt connect ground in the bus. On the first day his Laptop on one of the boards was grounded so it worked, on the next day it ran on battery.
Holding both boards in his hands while troubleshooting was enough to make a "kind of okayish" ground connection ;-)
Love the right angle adaptor on the DC loader, is that an EEV blog invention? Nice... is that new, don't recall seeing it in use before?
Initial comment: one of the blue buttons is mounted upside down. Functionally identical but a bit unprofessional lol
Great video, Dave! Looks like you've got some Seimitsu or maybe Sanwa brand joysticks in there. Maybe some Happ buttons too. Swap in some Sanwa's if those ever flake out.. They're the best! Cheers 😎
No flaking so far
I consider myself lucky - my years of playing Pac-man as a kid have prepared me for grocery shopping runs in the Coronavirus era.
Shame you gave up on this one, I'm sure you were really close. You noticed the excess current flow from the primary Vcc and were pretty sure all the components were OK. From the saw-tooth ripple voltage and the lopsided transformer drive, this had to be a base getting away from an emitter on one of the transistors on one-half-cycle of the drive. You could have looked for that with your HV probe (assuming you can see 0.6V with that).
Too funny your tongue sticking out of the side of your mouth in the thumbnail. I had a buddy years ago that constantly stuck his tongue out, it drove me nuts. Everything today is SMD, I miss through-hole, so easy to work on. I had a sound system power supply board that was destroyed in a thunderstorm, I did the same thing, added an SMPS and tossed out the board. Great video!
Mean Well do excellent power supply modules that would be suitable here... the RT-65B would probably be good for this
all that free space in the arcade machine :) why not make it smaller? I remember these 30 years ago as a kid when lived in RSA.
Well I suppose your the expert. Looking at the wave forms you were getting, I would have been scrutinizing the feedback circuit
Maybe the cab was older than the original game and they just pulled the old board and monitor out replacing it with a new one?
I got a pair of Hesh 3 BT headphoes on ebay for $19 because they played but buzzed badly, it was a bad solder joint.
When I have been repairing switch mode power supplies sometimes I have had bootstrap capacitors go on me when I have replaced that capacitor it's been fine
Nice video, Time for a pinball machine !!
Dead Dingo's Donger... Just like Dave. Anyone else would have just tossed the bloody thing in the art bin and installed a spare one.
That’s the problem with closed-loop feedback systems, unless they’re totally dead, good luck chasing down the problem - cause becomes effect, and effects become causes. Any signal problems just go round-and-round, until you get dizzy and 🤮!
this is right down my alley.
I like using meanwell brand power supplies
Winner nice repair Dave
Not watched yet but maybe 5v issue? adjust the trimmer if so, lets watch
Nice video Dave
thats what's been used for ages. I see a ton of these. then I put in a pc power supply.
lol
You should have probed it with a multimeter, especially on the 16V rail, then gone from there. You would have been able to get to the problem much sooner... Good vid all the same.
I work(ed) on these for a living.
You sure those are actually Rubycon, and not Chubycon? Little bit of China R&D going on there.
the mains wiring is catawampus
ill assume Muriel is far more common in Australia,
but every single time Dave says it i think of Courage the cowardly dog, i would've sword that Eaustice said that to Muriel at some point (tho not as commonly as telling courage that he is a stupid dog).
Sorry i know it is entirely irrelevant to the video i just have these weird flashbacks to TV i used to watch for some reason, and hoping it will put a smile on someone who also recalls the wonderful show that was courage the cowardly dog.
Cold joints are a bitch to find. Switch mode nortorious shit joints especially on the transformers. And you were right the heat causes expansion but the actual oscillation in xfer can crack joints too.
I suspect you may have needed to replace your transformer dielectric fluid.
Just the other day I had a similar "worked for a few minutes" thermal dry joint. But in my case I was able to find the offending solder joint and get right in to see the micro-cracks with a microscope:
ua-cam.com/video/rWK9HHDBUY0/v-deo.html
Here it is an a still image: www.video99.co.uk/images/dryjoint.jpg
The relevant time of the video is here ua-cam.com/video/rWK9HHDBUY0/v-deo.html
@@stuartm5745 Yes, thank you, I tried to put in a link with the time but it kept going wrong last night. That microscope shot really does show a classic dry joint with the solder almost turning into crystals. Here it is an a still image: www.video99.co.uk/images/dryjoint.jpg
looks like zippy joysticks, with the restrictor set to 8 way. Most of the games on that 60 in 1 board will play better with the restrictor moved to the 4 way position. Pac man for example will get stuck when you try and turn a corner if 2 switches are pressed simultaneously. But if 1942 is your main jam then 8 way is best!
I think the only 8 way games on the 60 in 1 are 1942 and Gunsmoke... Gunsmoke needs 3 buttons...
I Woulda salvaged the PSU just to get those Rubycon caps .
Dont give a damn if it works or not !
"Wow! Who soldered that? Stevie Wonder?!". Hahaha.. hilarious!
at 7:49 is there a dry joint halfway up on the right hand side?
Nope, trick of light and shadow
I can't take my eyes off a bad solder joints at the right side at 8:08.
Call me lazy but I would have just replaced that power supply with an old PC supply from a previous dumpster dive. :)
Stick Time Pilot '84 (1984 Konami) on it. ... actually, no, don't.. its way to addictive.
I see the yewchoob comments gremlins are still active.
33:10 .. "vintage".. they call it "vintage" these days... :P
5:03 "Green and yellow" - Yellow? That's Australian gold my friend and don't you F'n forget it!
8:07 joint mid screen right
You should be embarrassed. A pro electronic engineer with your equipment and experience couldn't diagnose a single-sided power board designed in 1984.
"That's not an Arcade Game!"
"Who solder that? Stevie Wonder?", nowadays teenagers know who is Stevie Wonder? But it's really made me laugh out loud.
Before you got it working again, I was going to say one of the two diodes powering the control chip was bad, or the resistor had somehow "partially" opened (so effectively went up in value rather than opening entirely)
I would have scoped the output and then used some plastic tool or a wooden chopstick to jab things and see if the output started jumping around. Just make sure not to touch anything or YOU will be jumping around! :)
I didn't expect it to be an "I sorta fixed it but didn't really know how" type of deal, but that happens to me, too. :)
I once had my VCR showing no picture, so I switched tapes. Still no picture. Then I switched back to the original tape, tried to fast forward and rewind (while playing) and I heard a rattle. I thought it was something like the mechanism wasn't getting all the way into the right position, or something was dirty and getting stuck. Well, it turns out, the first cassette was not only causing the rattle, but the actual tape was putting enough shmutz on the heads to prevent a picture from showing, until I played a good tape for a few minutes! Then the garbage rubbed off and it worked again! What the Farad!
Why not just use an old atx psu?
Can of cold spray?
This is like a modern fake arcade machine!
And finally you fixed it with another junktech PSU.
I love that game!
Hah, 1001 + 1 uses for masking tape @ 1.11 in... Board decided it was jealous of USA Blue screen of Death issues, so decided Chinese black screen... Stay safe and sane...
Lol. Scenario 2. Suffering from lockdown fever, Dave has played 12,764 games of Pacman on his trusty old Arcade Machine. With his tongue at exactly the right angle, Dave is just about to gobble up the last ghost when suddenly POOF.. BZZZZTTT.. Hummmmmmmm......... "WTF...Arrrrrrrrgggggggggg". Lol.
Yep Dave fix it again good job is Dave
'Pass the powchie...'
Did you notice the wording on the power supply PCB? For continred protection...
Pity would have been great if you repaired the PSU, then we would have learned a lot more then just replacing it with a new power brick.
Dry as a dead dingo's donger.
Who soldered that, Stevie Wonder?
You can see it's just going silly-buggers.
I wish I'd had this guy for my ET classes, so entertaining.
LMFAO
Everything is hanky-dory. :)
@@volodymyrzakolodyazhny - Purely FYI - Here in NZ it's pronounced with an 'O' as in hOnky dory. I think Aussie is the same (they ALWAYS seem to copy what we do here)
@@trevorvanbremen4718 ..... Lamingtons,
i gotta be honest, i felt that he did a disservice to stevie wonder on that joke.
I would have picked on a crack head