I love these kind of debates, so much passion and anger from both sides. This is what academia should be. Ideas worth defending, and worth attacking. More of this!
I found it funny that Patrick doesn't seem to realise the irony of his claim that the belief that government represents the popular will is just a myth while also pushing his own fallacy about the capitalist market represents distributed individual choices.
Awesome debate, Mark holds his own surprisingly well even though I fundamentally agree with Patrik's assessment of OOO as simple avant gardism, a shallow reading of an irrelevant philosophical notion appropriated to create an architecture that's different for the sake of being different. Just my completely unqualified assessment, both men clearly have valuable insights to share with one another and all of us. Shame about the audio at the start.
compare this to Eisnemann vs. Alexander debate and it's shocking how discourse has devolved and even the simple ability to disagree in a polite and convincing way. This is the future of architecture? I'd rather pick Leon Krier any day.
I was at this FACE OFF, about 6 rows from the stage.....and.....those god forsaken shoes Gage wore - not that Patrik was winning any fashion competitions with his slave trade pair of Nike's. This 2 plus hour convo went SUPER FAST. You'd have thought you were there all of 40 minutes. I was pretty sure that few people actually got the point. Any of them. And when it shifted into economics from architecture - I was literally in heaven (in spite the shoes) - but I know from my fairly recent arch education experience (completed undergrad and masters back to back) that VERY FEW people give two shits about economics - when there's probably nothing more important in this world than....yeah.....economics. Period. Everything else is spit on a sun baked sidewalk and can and will be evaporated as such. Anyone can save the whales. Anyone can be a vegan and talk inferior shallow shit about eating meat. Anyone can argue theory and approach. FEW CAN END THE FED AND LIVE TO TELL THE TALE. So.....needless to say.....to have been immersed in this dialogue - one that included so much of what I am passionate about - man......what the hell......I was happy, let's just leave it there. Rothbard and Von Mises fly right the fuck over everyone's head - while the masses go home talking about how great Game of Thrones is (was - ha! - what a joke). Meanwhile - the fed steals the world - I mean.... LIFE ITSELF - right out from under their noses. I have to say that Gage reminded me of so much of the population in America - full of themselves, ignorant of truth, questioning not a god damn thing about what we are taught, and ALWAYS RIGHT - even when they are the farthest thing from it. That pompous ass part of our so-called land of the "free".......good on ya folks.
@@christopherlaskoski189 i too spent a decade of my life in architecture school + practice only to realise now all the feel good proselytising from the architectural elite who have no firm grip of the real world. fortunately milton friedman, thomas sowell, patrik led me down the path toward the bitcoin standard (highly recommend saifedean ammous' masterpiece), to understand monetary history and affects of impatient, high time preference architecture. a global monetary standard based on fiat creates bubbles in property/development, leading to the spreadsheet driven garbage design that all practicing architects must produce to feed themselves. i would go one step further to argue that whilst patrik's/ZHA's work are truly incredible modern pieces but whilst operating within the fiat standard, can only use parametricism to optimize design productivity/creativity for high-time preference clients. We need to look back 100-200 years to only wonder, why most modern architecture is worse in quality in the face of unparalleled technological advancement. wtf happened in 1971?
Gage is intelligent and all, but Schumacher is well-rehearsed in debate vs. state-interventionist and socialist arguments. He's been defending his libertarian position in public forums a while now, and it shows in his ease of retort to Gage's infantile terms of debate.
I find some of Mark Foster Gage's responses to Patrik juvenile... for most topics/questions Mark just waited for Patrik to start first, and then look for quotes to attack, instead of really getting into the discourse. It's doesn't contribute much when he made "funny" remarks against him, or asking students who want to do parametricism to raise their hands. With Patrik's arguments and his way of expressing them - it is soooo easy to make comments that Mark made, be the guy who laugh and disagree.
I agree. I don't particularly agree with Patrik's opinions at all, I feel his positions are well thought and devleiverd. Mark's opening comment about his "right-hand man" not getting a raise was gross. First, why are you sharing someone's business and, second, what a clunky joke. He's too much of a crowd-pleaser. He's brilliant but his work and demeanor seem to fall somewhere between obsequiousness and self-agrandizement.
We are witnessing a genius. I don't think people actually understand the sophistication of Parametricism and it's full potential. Saying Patrik is underrated is an understatement at this point.. We're going to be retroactively looking back in awe of these pivotal moments
How long are we supposed to wait for OOO to produce a recognizable architectural style? Graham Harman goes on about influencing architecture so much. Here Gage does as well, but as he even admits we’re still waiting to see something…Meanwhile, OOO is just rehashing Heidegger but claiming to be realist. Wake up. It’s not a realist philosophy just because Harman wants it to be.
30 minutes in and Patrick Schumacher has pretty much wiped the floor with Mark Foster Gage. Saying that, Mr. Foster Gage is an academic, so no wonder he can't make any arguments that aren't fit for a discussion that doesn't involve pandering to college students' beliefs.
Triple O is gibberish nonsense in Architecture. I get that many people are enamored by it due to its esoteric philosophical nature. But just watching Triple O inspired Architects, in this video, fail to articulate and enumerate what links their theory with their works speak volumes of how silly it is as an architecture movment.
I love these kind of debates, so much passion and anger from both sides. This is what academia should be. Ideas worth defending, and worth attacking. More of this!
MOAR!
why do collages suck at recording audio?
Absalom Espinoza keep listening the audio switches to his mic around 6 mins in
I found it funny that Patrick doesn't seem to realise the irony of his claim that the belief that government represents the popular will is just a myth while also pushing his own fallacy about the capitalist market represents distributed individual choices.
There's a delicious irony when Patrick says "let a hundred flowers bloom" around the 17:00 mark. It's like having a modest proposal.
Awesome debate, Mark holds his own surprisingly well even though I fundamentally agree with Patrik's assessment of OOO as simple avant gardism, a shallow reading of an irrelevant philosophical notion appropriated to create an architecture that's different for the sake of being different. Just my completely unqualified assessment, both men clearly have valuable insights to share with one another and all of us. Shame about the audio at the start.
compare this to Eisnemann vs. Alexander debate and it's shocking how discourse has devolved and even the simple ability to disagree in a polite and convincing way. This is the future of architecture? I'd rather pick Leon Krier any day.
State interventions greatly contributed the the great depression? Somebody has been reading Murray Rothbard. Good to hear.
I was at this FACE OFF, about 6 rows from the stage.....and.....those god forsaken shoes Gage wore - not that Patrik was winning any fashion competitions with his slave trade pair of Nike's.
This 2 plus hour convo went SUPER FAST. You'd have thought you were there all of 40 minutes. I was pretty sure that few people actually got the point. Any of them. And when it shifted into economics from architecture - I was literally in heaven (in spite the shoes) - but I know from my fairly recent arch education experience (completed undergrad and masters back to back) that VERY FEW people give two shits about economics - when there's probably nothing more important in this world than....yeah.....economics. Period. Everything else is spit on a sun baked sidewalk and can and will be evaporated as such.
Anyone can save the whales. Anyone can be a vegan and talk inferior shallow shit about eating meat. Anyone can argue theory and approach.
FEW CAN END THE FED AND LIVE TO TELL THE TALE.
So.....needless to say.....to have been immersed in this dialogue - one that included so much of what I am passionate about - man......what the hell......I was happy, let's just leave it there. Rothbard and Von Mises fly right the fuck over everyone's head - while the masses go home talking about how great Game of Thrones is (was - ha! - what a joke). Meanwhile - the fed steals the world - I mean.... LIFE ITSELF - right out from under their noses. I have to say that Gage reminded me of so much of the population in America - full of themselves, ignorant of truth, questioning not a god damn thing about what we are taught, and ALWAYS RIGHT - even when they are the farthest thing from it. That pompous ass part of our so-called land of the "free".......good on ya folks.
@@christopherlaskoski189 i too spent a decade of my life in architecture school + practice only to realise now all the feel good proselytising from the architectural elite who have no firm grip of the real world. fortunately milton friedman, thomas sowell, patrik led me down the path toward the bitcoin standard (highly recommend saifedean ammous' masterpiece), to understand monetary history and affects of impatient, high time preference architecture. a global monetary standard based on fiat creates bubbles in property/development, leading to the spreadsheet driven garbage design that all practicing architects must produce to feed themselves. i would go one step further to argue that whilst patrik's/ZHA's work are truly incredible modern pieces but whilst operating within the fiat standard, can only use parametricism to optimize design productivity/creativity for high-time preference clients. We need to look back 100-200 years to only wonder, why most modern architecture is worse in quality in the face of unparalleled technological advancement. wtf happened in 1971?
Gage is intelligent and all, but Schumacher is well-rehearsed in debate vs. state-interventionist and socialist arguments. He's been defending his libertarian position in public forums a while now, and it shows in his ease of retort to Gage's infantile terms of debate.
it's a shame Gage isn't up to the task, then it would've been a much more interesting debate...
I find some of Mark Foster Gage's responses to Patrik juvenile... for most topics/questions Mark just waited for Patrik to start first, and then look for quotes to attack, instead of really getting into the discourse. It's doesn't contribute much when he made "funny" remarks against him, or asking students who want to do parametricism to raise their hands. With Patrik's arguments and his way of expressing them - it is soooo easy to make comments that Mark made, be the guy who laugh and disagree.
I agree. I don't particularly agree with Patrik's opinions at all, I feel his positions are well thought and devleiverd. Mark's opening comment about his "right-hand man" not getting a raise was gross. First, why are you sharing someone's business and, second, what a clunky joke. He's too much of a crowd-pleaser. He's brilliant but his work and demeanor seem to fall somewhere between obsequiousness and self-agrandizement.
guys just made huge part in architecture history
Well, Patrik Schumacher clearly has no idea what OOO is.
We are witnessing a genius. I don't think people actually understand the sophistication of Parametricism and it's full potential. Saying Patrik is underrated is an understatement at this point.. We're going to be retroactively looking back in awe of these pivotal moments
He’s ahead of his time and that isn’t a compliment.
moderator's shoes
How long are we supposed to wait for OOO to produce a recognizable architectural style? Graham Harman goes on about influencing architecture so much. Here Gage does as well, but as he even admits we’re still waiting to see something…Meanwhile, OOO is just rehashing Heidegger but claiming to be realist. Wake up. It’s not a realist philosophy just because Harman wants it to be.
30 minutes in and Patrick Schumacher has pretty much wiped the floor with Mark Foster Gage. Saying that, Mr. Foster Gage is an academic, so no wonder he can't make any arguments that aren't fit for a discussion that doesn't involve pandering to college students' beliefs.
Spot on 😅
24:20+
Sound is terrible. Can't understand a word that german guy is saying.
grimydazzle keep listening the audio switches to his mic around 6 mins in
@@disposablegloves123 thanks almost gave up on this video
Patrick is simply on another level, this “discussion” felt like a father disciplining his crying son.
nah m8
Among the things that Post Modernism put an end to was the authentic intellectual.
Patricks right
That blue stripe on your pants invalidates most points. Terrible choice.
Mark foster shoes say it all ... 🤦🏻
Aesthetics gets tossed around a lot
Triple O is gibberish nonsense in Architecture. I get that many people are enamored by it due to its esoteric philosophical nature. But just watching Triple O inspired Architects, in this video, fail to articulate and enumerate what links their theory with their works speak volumes of how silly it is as an architecture movment.
i hate that im siding with gage but i guess even a turd facing pat looks good
baseless arguments by pat