I don't know. Skeletons lack a certain spirit, while ghosts have no backbone. And zombies lack guts. Not to mention that vampires are a bit long in the tooth.
Actually virology wouldev been a greater concern for europeans to master instead of dismissing the act of the plague as a unfortunate happenstance. Dont get me wrong the feild of medicine was trying with the limited growth it was allowed but im sure the first sign of a zombie plague those limitations would be casted away in a campaign of urgent importance to cleanse plague ridden areas.
Alternative history idea: "The Black Undeath" Based in Europe during the ravages of the Black Death... But the victims succumbing to the sickness rise from the dead as zombies.
Eh... 1) If he opposes the church: Devil's worshiper! Who slay him will seat at God's table in heaven! 2) If he's with the church: God is with us! Let's slay the unbelievers!
If actual god/God-blessed holy warriors started popping up and doing battle with each other, I'd say time to find a different planet...possibly a different universe.
Alot of 'generic fantasy light religion' and paladin tropes seem to be able to be traced to Zoroastrianism essentially. The religion itself is about being a 'warrior of light against the forces of darkness' somewhat according to some people who practice or converted to it today. In fantasy its like as if a Zoroastrian-ish religion got mixed with Norse or Celtic culture and folklore. Some of the Persian Empires' aesthetics actually did resemble that of fantasy paladins including symbolism showing a white background and a 'sun' with light emitting from it I think in a way.
Hey Noble Ones! Thank you so much for watching as always I really appreciate it! If you like this sort of speculative videos which include alternate realities and a new revisiting of the fantasy worlds we love in a more realistic and educated view please let me know in the comments, and I'll turn this into a series! Also for those of you who wish to support my work here on youtube and would like to see more videos on my channel but still keeping the same level of editing and quality please consider taking a moment to downlaod and instal the game The Walking Dead: Road to Surival! If you try this game out for free you will be actively supportig my channel and the production of more quality content for you on the Metatron channel! Link: spons.org/metatwd Thank you so much to all those who always help me spread my wings! Metatron
Metatron awesome work man, yes, it would be interesting to adres this kind of themes, I’m a writer and I’d like to talk about realistic artifacts, you know, those artifacts that can end the world, like the one ring or the infinity gauntlet, how would they work in a medieval theme where there’s no magic
What about revenants? There like skeletons but way stronger,faster and smarter because they have human souls and where awaked for one reason only: !!revenge!!
One interesting aspect that always intrigued me about the Warhammer Fantasy setting is the fiefdoms of the Vampire Counts, and the heydey if Nehekara. Now some of these realms were or ended up completely undead. But during certain periods, the rulers practiced necromsncy but also still had living, human serfs and servants. Creating a kind of society where undead were used as manual labour and troops in their armies, serving their sometimes living masters. What would a society look like where undead beings have become a normalized part of people's everyday lives?
A much worse timeline then ours, but not for the undead; what you envisioned is a society where undeads do all the work, this means that the majority of people would become useless. It would become a nightmare much worse of the next robotic revolution, since people were already treated like shit; in this timeline the few powerful people would have unlimited power on their lands
So I think it's a fun comparison. I didn't do too much research on the Tomb King specific lore but if I'm remembering correctly, Sylvania was a relatively happy place under the rule of Vlad Von Carstein. Not a Utopia by any means, but the living still had their own land in what was considered cursed territory and were able to get what they needed to survive, even being accepted by the Von Carstein's into armies, politics, and other things.
But isn't that just like the slavery that was a thing anyway? but more "profitable" since the "slaves" wouldn't need to eat or rest and wouldn't really rebell... if you actually had the magic to control them and basicly "re-program" them... :D
And I almost forgot... More profitable since you wouldnt need to smack a person with something and get him unconscious or whatever to enslave him... you just stab him with a knive and "Boom" new slave... :D
You forgot the truly scary part, undead sentient commanders, just imagine for a moment someone like Alexander the Great, Julius Ceasar, August Octavian, Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Valerian, Gallienus, Claudius Gothicus, Quintillus, Aurelian and lastly Vlad the Impaler, Vampire Lords, leading said armies, that is the real danger, they get stronger with age, get a bunch of abilities like going ghost mode, summon and command thunderstorms, so here is horrible real-world idea imagine tanks, prop/jet planes, IFV, carriers, destroyers, submarines FREAKING BATTLESHIPS by the likes of Grave Guard & the Blood Knights from Warhammer fantasy, would be both scary and cool! Soon the Legions of Dammed shall rise, they shall shake the very earth they tread upon, they shall darken the skies and blacken the waters, the Crimson Aquilla upon a black canvas shall reach across all 4 corners of the world! AVE IMPERTOR, DEUS VULT, NOCTE PERPETUA, ROMA AETERNA!
Alexandru von Carstein Zarovich that sounds like a novel I read can't remember the title vampires brought the Roman empire to an end and yes Attila the Hun was the head of it all humans were not just blood supply they were the common folk to ennobled you had to be turned so they were selective about who they turned. anyway I lost it and can't get another one because it is not distributed in the united States for some reason how it got here I don't know
@@juliahenriques210 No more like Great and Might legions of undead nation belonging to Midnight Aristocracy of Sylvania the Vampire Counts, but that also works,
Well, traditionally SUN would make the undead's magic that ables them move to stop. Also the sound of BELLS and other metallic instruments like whistles and other metallic percussion ones. And FLOWING water undead can't cross. So that would put limits to their advance.
Loving the idea Metatron. I've also realized that if we assume the undead are controlled by one or more "necromancers" we would see the rise of professional witch hunter/assassins to "decapitate" potential hordes with one strike. I think the clergy would take this role, kind of like in the film "Priest" (2011) with Paul Bettany.
Gopnik Dragonborn Not something that happens everywhere. Only two rogue mages are responsible for the ash spawn and they were using heart stone, rock imbued with the blood of a god, not an ordinary thing. Maybe if the ice monkeys learn how to dispose their dead there would be no draugrs you s'wit.
The undead are truly a frightning oponent, but a question; its usualy established that undead move through magic means, would by that reason magic be also acessible to us, the living? If so we could develop tons of countermeasures, we would just need to be creative :D
I guess it depends on the setting. In movies It's usually a virus rather than magic that reanimates the dead. I would think without magic we'd only have to contend with zombies unless there was a mutation in the virus that made vampires.
Honestly the Nercomancy (magic type) zombies would be the more dangerous as the Necromancer could turn litterally any corpse into a new undead. But if Necromancy exists them so do other magics like wards, blessings, and offensive holy Magic like exorcisms and smiting. Those all being natural hard counters to Necromancy. Virus type zombies on the other hand would primarily need living hosts and so burning bodies would be both a counter measure AND a weapon since you could cripple the zombie (disable/dismember the limbs) and then burn them. It would change combat tactics to be more about defensive formations than shock and awe like we see with historical Calvary charges.
@@kaimagnus5760 The worst scenario is a combination of the two, where a powerful necromancer, typically called a Lich, would spread plague and pestilence across territory it controls, infecting the lesser peasantry and natural wildlife while also taking it under his control with the same school of magic. There's very little in the way of defense against that kind of threat, especially in a Black Death era setting. You'd essentially be boned, no pun intended.
@@Blurredborderlines Good point. Fun fact though, a Lich is a Necromancer that has turned himself into an undead. While that does take a lot of power that same scenario could still occur without the mage in question having achieved lichdom.
Thanks - great subject, stimulating the mind and stoking the imagination. Delivered as always, in your warm, friendly and inimitable style: both humble and authoritative at the same time. I salute you, Sir! Thanks for informing, educating and entertaining me so well, today, in the past, and no doubt in many times to come.
kind of, actual undead in the witcher are mostly just ghosts and spectres. necrophages and vampires in the witcher are all living beings, more akin to alien creatures from other worlds. its only the poorly educated people (non-witchers) that believe those monsters to be risen dead.
@@drago2210 That would be your impression, not fact, right? Since most of those appear out of the dead and in fact some missions are to 'burn' the dead to avoid them to turn into those creatures (or name them in the case of stillborns). So...
Sigourney Di Blasi No it’s not just his opinion that’s fact in the Witcher verse. Vampires in the Witcher are literally a living creature. However undead in the forms of specters or wraiths still exist. But undead skeletons or zombies to my knowledge do not exist.
@Metatron you missed one point. That is, while humans are being kept alive by low-thermic burning of sugars, obtained in food or transmuted from proteins or fats, undead need to be powered by other meanings. While by lore undead are powered by magic or by the remaining energy of soul, that energy must've come from some sort of source and need to be replenished time to time. Probably we are speaking about some sort of self-contained plasma reservoir used to power up skeleton's ghost. Also, while ghosts (probably surviving part of destroyed skeleton) are resistant to standard weapons, still there is some sort of energy that keeps them in shape - thus they can be actually quite sensitive towards EM fields and fire. (Same is IMHO valid for other undead - thus electric warfare would be more developed.)
I've played AD&D since the early 1980s . The explanation of good and evil powers is that Good is connected to the Positive Material Plane and Evil is connected to the Negative Material Plane . Undead get their power from the Negative Material Plane , break that connection to defeat them .
While undead armies certainly have all the advantages you mentioned, they also have (depending on the setting of course) a glaring weakness - the necromancer himself. While the loss of the leader is always a bad thing for an army, in the case of the undead the killing of the necromancer normally means that his entire army crumbles to dust. So in this alternative reality I think most armies will have specialized spec-ops/assassin squadrons to deal with these targets. Which propably also means that the profession (which probably have another name then) will be seen much more heroic in the eyes of the populus then in our world. unless ofc the Necromancer can command their armies from the safety of their hidden towers. Then we are doomed.
First off, I have to say that I really enjoyed this video and would love to see you make a whole series out of it, it kind of reminds me of Shad's Fantasy Rearmed series. Maybe you guys could do some sort of colab on this general topic in the future. I have to say that I've never heard of undead just wandering around all over the place. Unless the setting is a world or kingdom/city that's being overrun or under siege by undead, I've only heard of undead being confined to specific areas, either a certain forest or woods or a castle or some kind old city ruins. So, going by those kinds of settings, undead wouldn't be a huge threat, they would just create places that were to be avoided at all costs and where nobody would set up a farm, much less a village or anything larger. Lastly, I'm right with you on ghosts and spirits. The idea of an evil ghost or spirit is something that really creeps me out. I'm ok with pretty much everything because I know I can at least attempt to fight back, eps. if it's at home where I have plenty of different tools that I could use. But an incorporeal entity, that freaks me out because I have no idea of how to fight back against something that can hurt me but I can't do a single thing to; I can't cut/stab it, I can't shoot it, I can't punch or kick it, I can't burn it, and so on.
This is fascinating. I'm a novice (fantasy) writer and I love the societal considerations you came up with. Wish I could sit down with you, buy you a cup of coffee or tea and have a chat about this sort of stuff as it pertains to my own writing.
IMO the undead would be crushed in the modern world as well as the medieval one, and likely weaponized given that their intelligence is very low. However I would see this having a greater impact on medieval warfare. Great video as always!
Magical undead are not stupid. They are only limited by the decomposition of their bodies. And would be incredibly hard to overcome. If you were a soldier standing before an army of undead I think you'd take your statement back. Especially if they don't feel pain.. pain and fear are HUGE factors in medieval warfare. Imagine an opponent who is immune to both of those...
@Avenging Demon I never said "win over" I meant sort of walking dead style releasing them onto the opposition after having them captive. It also depends on what scenario we are talking about because on all the ones Im familiar with zombies and skeletons are just mindless hostile humanoids.
@@Auldus The reason I dont think skeletons or zombies are a match for humans is because of the physical capacity of each, in every zombie fiction its the protagonists are threatened because its usually dozens of zombies against 1 person or a group against hundreds; but in reality I see it very hard for these large groups of undead to form because it would first have to be the reverse scenario, a small group of weaker slower and uncoordinated corpses vs a society who is ready to wage war against an equal society. If we are talking about about an undead army however, there are many variables to determine how organized and undead army could pseudo realistically be. But speaking on an individual level you still have to account for each undead minion being slower, weaker and possibly be capable of getting taking down in 1 hit (with medieval armament). As much as an undead foe is capable of inducing fear in a human army, there is another side to the coin in that the large majority of soldiers do not enjoy taking lives. War is traumatic not only for all the people that die around you, but also because humans are emotionally and psychologically not designed to kill other humans. Killing other people is most of what causes ptsd, along with depression and other issues. So while an enemy who doesnt feel pain can be intimidating, it is also one that you cannot feel sorry for and perhaps one that you would be eager to kill, or at least moreso than an actual human. Sorry for this wall of text but I do enjoy discussing fantasy and medieval warfare.
@@Goldenleyend A regular human could easily be taken down by one hit of a medieval weapon. You will not continue fighting after a blade stabs into your kidneys, or an axe splits your helm and head in half. Also, even if the undead are mindless, they _do_ have one directive: to kill and consume the living. Thus, it's unlikely that a gaggle of zombies will simply amble about aimlessly, but they will make a beeline for the nearest living humans. I do think that the fear of the undead would be a major factor, at least initially, for one simple reason: *their very existence goes against how we know the world to work.* Skeletons should *not* be able to walk and use weapons, or even see where they are going without any eyes or muscles. Dead bodies should not be able to claw their way out of the cold earth and feast on the living (why do they even need to eat?) The existence of the undead would be equivalent to having rain fall upwards, or for gravity to switch itself off at times. Also consider that soldiers, both medieval and modern, are trained to fight other human beings, who will fight using weapons and tactics roughly similar to what they were instructed in. Why is it that poorly equipped guerillas have given well-trained armies such grief over the centuries? It's because fighting something that does not fight in the way that you were trained is extremely difficult. And unless you can adapt your strategies _very_ quickly (or simply have enough resources to not care about losses) you will lose that war. This factor is greatly exacerbated when facing the undead, because they *don't* care about resources or territory. Even if you kill a hundred of them for every one soldier you lose to death or permanently incapacitating wounds, that is still a step forward for the dead. Because whilst your soldiers grow tired, sick, and old, they do not. While your kingdom suffers starvation from lack of trade and the fields lying fallow, the undead have no need of coin or bread. They have all the time in the world, while your kingdom does not. Add that your rivals will likely not go easy on you just because you have a bit of a walking corpse problem, and you can see why the undead could easily wipe out most of medieval Europe. As for weaponizing the undead, that could happen, but it probably would not be a viable option. How do you make sure that your skellies and zombies target the other fellows, and not your own men? How do you prevent them from coming back to your lands to ravage the villages? And how do you even go about capturing one without putting your soldiers at unncessary risks? Now, this wouldn't be the case in the modern world, as we have far more destructive weapons at our disposal than any medieval army. A single infantry squad in any modern army has enough killing power to rout a medieval army. But back in the Middle Ages, when the amount of frightfulness men could bring to the battlefield was far more limited, the undead would truly be a scourge.
What if magic existed? And how would it work and interact with the universe? I had one explaination of how it would work within our universe, but I wanna hear yours!
Some additional ideas : Architecture would most likely change especially in rural landscapes and houses would be built to be more defensible (multi-storey buildings with the ground floor having no windows and possibly not having any door instead the 1st floor would have a door and you would get up and down via ladder and as for getting supplies inside the house maybe a winch, the ground floor could be used for storing supplies) . As Metatron said , people would most likely stop using graveyards because of obvious reasons (or make them outside of towns and be heavily guarded and designed as labirynths like in warhammer fantasy) , and along with cremation they could take an aditional step if after the cremation a skeleton remains and that is breaking the bones (there are some real life stories in which a deceased person which was suspected to be a vampire had their grave opened and skeleton rearranged into a pile or damaged to ensure they would not come back to life) As for warfare , blunt weapons would be very popular along with heavy armour. I also suspect that a great emphasis would be put on mobility making cavalry even more important (lances could be modifed to have a metal plate instead of a tip which could make it effective against the undead) Agriculture would also become harder as the undead could burn the crops if led by an intelligent creature (vampires,liches,necromancers) As for defending against ghosts , not all ghosts could/should be malevolent (in many ancient mythologies there are spirits which protect your house if you bring them offerings) so that could be a way to defend against them. Also if magic is real then maybe use sacred inscriptions/rituals I would also like to bring up some problems with the undead : - Most undead (or atleast ones that are used en masse like zombies and skeletons) are described as stupid and as such they could be avoided , they would also be hard to coordinate on the battlefield (no self iniative,if they are only controlled by the general he would be overworked) - If they are revived by magic rather than by some other means the population would be scared of potential necromancers and as such secrets of magic would be highly regulated and guarded (pr outright outlawed) and you would most likely get killed on the spot if you were suspected to be a necromancer. - Due to the knowledge that dead might come to life people would actively try to destroy the dead so there would be a lot less of them in widely populated areas and could probably be found on forgotten battlefields and on the roads (some random travellers/merchants dying on the road and no one being around to make sure they don't return)
In a more low magic setting with the undead, one without wizard or overtly magical items, you could have religion as a way to fight the undead. Maybe a ghost couldn’t enter holy ground, or the touch of a blessed item or holy water repels, harms, or destroys such undead. I suppose if that were the case, then eventually they would just get priests to bless everything. If this was the case, it would give a tremendous boost to the power and authority of the Catholic Church. There is also going in the opposite direction - what about groups of humans which openly coexist with the undead? If we have intelligent undead creatures and not just shambling zombies, then there is no reason why they couldn’t ally themselves with human communities or even become leaders. This particularly makes sense with powerful undead like liches or vampires - something we see in fiction all the time. If such undead exist, it may be only a matter of time before they rule everything, unless some kind of supernatural protection or weakness exists.
Sort of what I was thinking in regards to your first suggestion. A reality where, if magic is a very hard to acquire, restricted, or minimalistic in its ability to approach the issue, and if holy sacraments or locations work against the undead, it would be a pro-church (or whatever religion in the fantasy setting) world. Likely, the authority of such an institution, with repeated empirical evidence of them being capable of warding of such constant threats, would be hard to usurp or directly question since they may not hold the sword over society itself, but they keep it from coming down fast and hard. In such a world, being a priest or an clergy member of the church would be an interesting professional decision since: A) the continued stability of society is on your head, so… no pressure B) since the rites would likely only work completely by an actual holy individual, their might be less immediate corruption in the church (at least in direct community interactions, higher up authority would still be debatable) C) such a priestly caste would likely be a lucrative one to join since you can literally charge any price or request any payment for your services since the church seemingly holds the monopoly over societal safety from the undead.
I was recently GMing a siege of an undead castle for my group and a few things occurred to me. 1. Starvation and supplies. The undead can't be starved out but they'd also be great at starving out if they were the attackers. No need to store food or water which means they could focus on maintaining a higher stockpile for ammunition. They also don't have a need for rest which means they could assault the castle walls during the night when humanoid defenders are resting. 2. Disease. If the undead don't get sick then stockpiling diseased bodies and using siege weaponry to fling them over castle walls, like was done at Caffa, would be super effective. They are at no risk of infecting their own troops so they could store and transport rotting remains to the siege and then use them on the defenders. Alternatively, spreading something like anthrax in the soil in the fields where the attackers might set up a camp would be a great way to overcome them. Further, you could imagine undead soldiers covering themselves in filth. This way they could potentially infect humanoid infantry or cavalry in a skirmish. That small cut you just got on your arm might have been a detriment with medieval sanitation as it was, but that skeleton was holding a pike covered in bacteria and other gross stuff.
I realy enjoy your work @Metatron just as I enjoy artist who made those artworks you used. Please credit those artists. They deserve to credit them as much as music compositors. Thank you for understanding. :)
I think you missed what might have been the most dangerous thing about a necromancer with a army of ghosts to go along with his undead army. In most settings, ghosts can CHOOSE whether or not you see them unless you have some special abilities and in any war one of the most power weapons is always knowledge. Ghosts would make the ultimate spies. Able to be invisible, intangible, with no need for rest and perfect memory and with the stronger ones, even capable of possession. Imagine an enemy army with and entire division of spies like that!
make this a series please. Your videos are a oasis of knowledge and wisdom. I am actually attempting to write a novel and your videos have given me some amazing insight into many things. Amazing channel highly recomended
Actually in Heroes of Might and Magic 1 they had undead enemy unit (something like ghost, i don't remember) that grew its numbers by amount of troops it killed in an attack. It was probably the toughest enemy, and you had to fight it with army made exclusively of high-level creatures in order to have chances at winning.
Because you're used to harmonies and Ricercar a 6 is counterpoint. Listen to the individual melodies instead of the wall of sound they create together.
I am a DM for a D&D group and this was helpful. I have a land dedicated to an undead nation essentially. And in lore the lore they fought a war with the rest of the world. This video considered some topics I hadn't taken into account and appreciate the information presented. Also I appreciate the music, Stronghold was a favorite game of mine when I was younger and hearing was very nostalgic.
I would like to point something out: if there are hoards of undead roaming the country, then most farms and such areas would get overrun or abandoned and unless a new system of perhaps fortified agricultural areas were to be implemented, agricultural production would cease and everyone would starve.
Metatron I must say as an RPG player that ALWAYS chooses the necromancer class every chance I get I really enjoyed this vid. And would like to see more "food for thought" style vids. Very entertaining.
Please make this a series. This is fascinating. My own addition to this discussion: a big part depends on how you kill undead in this world - is only the head a target, like in Walking Dead? What happens if you cut off a limb - can it still move, like in PotC or is it cut off from the magic that keeps these things moving? How much does it take to cut a limb off of the magic? An interesting choice would be to not be able to kill them at all, because they're already dead. Then, the second option would be to immobilize them for example. Weaponry would focus on things like traps, nets, etc. It would become focused on non-lethal ways of stopping an enemy because lethal ways don't work (and if you use them against living enemies, it would add a soldier to the undead army)
Undead would not tire in a battle, while the signs of tiredness would show on humans soon. Even with improved metalurgy, an all-heavy army would be slower than real medieval armies. An undead siege would also be deadly. They have aaaaaall the time and need no supply lines. (They can also catapult some rotten zombies in :) ) Ghosts don't even have to be deadly. Just keep key people awake 24h a day, and haunt the rest to demolish morale.
I really enjoyed this video! It was well thought out and mirrors opinions that I've held about a similar topic! However don't stop making your historical videos! I find that they are very informative and make me appreciate the ingenuity of our forebears!
About the logistics of undead armies. Though they don't need supply, they can't march endlessly either. Daytime is still much of a problem and finding shelters from light for thousands of undeads every day can be difficult. An undead army could have problem crossing running water. Vampires are specifically known for having problem with it, but skeletons, zombies and other unintelligent undeads may be too stupid to take appropriate measures. Their stupidity makes them very susceptible to traps and without any ability to learn, you can use the same trap every time. I guess that aspect depends on how much control undead commanders have on their troups.
Better video than most. I appreciate the mature approach to the topic, and the looking at oft-neglected aspects of world building (economy, religion, trade, production, architecture.) Would love to collab on or see more videos involving these.
Great video. One thing about Ghosts, generally ghosts are bound to a specific loation like a house, castle or ruins. That in itself strongly limits the effectiveness of ghosts.
Metatron, I love your analysis but (like many others) you skipped one very important detail: farming. A medieval society is mostly farming supporting a tiny percentage of the population living in cities, and that farming needs to continue to keep the cities fed, so the entire population (even most of the population) can't hold up behind city walls without running out of provisions.
I thought about this aspect too. Depending on the nature of the undead invasion, this necessity would lead farm hands be trained with bows (like in England) and they would get rid of your occasional wandering zombie.
I'm now genuinely inspired to run a D&D game during a medieval style undead apocalypse where the party starts off as "couriers" who break curfew and jump the walls at night to wander about and do tasks for "clients."
Heavily investing into weapon and armour improvements would be one of the worst options imaginable. It's all well and good when your soldiers are geared like gods. But should they join the undead army, you will have to fight against well equiped undeads. And that's just scary.
Personally speaking, one thing about ghosts and undead in general is this: if they are "just another race or faction", it makes sense for them to have a lethal weakness to something that can be used as a weapon to destroy individual ones in a definitive way; however, if they are "a greater threat" from another sphere of existence, they should still have a weakness to relics and religious items, but they are still unkillable. In the latter case, during nighttime ghosts start appearing in the streets but are unable to enter households, stores, palaces and any other enclosed building as long as there is a religious item hanging on the door. And here would come into place a "natural law" that would dictate the coexistence of the undead and the living: shamblers (zombies and skeletons) can move anywhere they are physically able to, both in daylight and at night, therefore walled cities shut their gates when they spot any; ghosts instead can only manifest themselves at night and can even roam the streets of a city at night, but can only phase through doorframes (and maybe even windows), so the people would pretty much nail religious items on the door and/or hand them over their windows, just like in real life they would hang garlic. Now these two aspects would affect the society, lawcode and religion of a real-life setting, with religious iconography and curfews having an additional reason to exist and be used.
I find assumption that undead don't need rest bit underthought. In any world there should be rules of conservation of energy. Each motion needs some source of energy. So undead should require some rest time to accumulate energy(which brought them back in first place). Unless concentration of said energy is so tremendous in the air, so they don't need downtime. In this case living ones are screwed. But perhaps they would develop ways to block this energy from leaking into settlements.
There is something to be brought up, there is a Priestly Order in Warhammer Fantasy dedicated to making sure Graveyards are not Necromantic Superstores, and that Souls stay in the Afterlife, the Order of Mor, the God of Death. If I remember correctly, their holy weapon is a Mace.
YES PLEASE!!! As an author this kind of video is very interesting for me. I had to work my head around a lot of the things you talked about here and it was great to hear you coming to similar, albeit more informed, conclusions. :)
bro, you won me over with your Sekiro video, and this video was also epic, also, you probably hear this alot, but you sound unnervingly like Ramsy Bolton
Omg yess! I would love to see more like this! Please do a video on what the world would be like if Intelligent Dragons, Elves, and Dwarves existed. Loved this video. Also what about Phoenixes? Would they, could they ward off the Undead?
As for ghosts, keep in mind two things: 1. In folklore, they are often bound to the place where they died. Usually, they can't leave the building where they died. That means they can't join undead armies, and their use as undead spies and infiltrators is limited. 2. Can they interact with the physical world at all? While in tabletop RPGs, video games and some other media they usually have physical attacks (often associated with cold or draining the life force), or magical attacks, in folklore they often can't interact with the living in any way other than being seen and heard. They can't harm people, other than if you die from a heart attack after seeing one ;) Also, it's not uncommon for ghosts in folklore to be good. Ancestor spirits giving good advice or bringing luck or protecting the settlement from evil spirits? Makes sense, why would they cause harm to their descendants?
Next to the aspect of farming, I think it would be important to talk more about the social changes. Wouldn't many feudal lords in these times not feel the need to become warriors again?
Scary thought about skeletons. They don't have muscles to move their bones. They are simply moved by magic. That being said, what's to limit the speed at which they can articulate their joints?
Well if magic is really just the spiritual and paranormal version of science, then I think their speed would depend on how strong the magic moving them is. Something like..... Stronger spirit energy equals more movement speed capabilities.
Sorry but I personally dont think there would be so much undead as you think since a constant undead threat would mean: 1. People wouldnt wage so many wars since battles increase the risk of undead infestation. Also they wouldnt fight eachother because there are jsut better things to kill/ double kill. 2. there wouldnt be so many dead people outside since there wouldnt be so many people venturing the lands. so random encounters would be rare. 3. communitys would be much smaller since trade is a vital factor for population growth. 4. weapons would have been adapted to killing undead from the start. 5. incineration after death would be law, so there wont be graveyards and any traveler loosing a member would put efford into burning his body. 6. If undead are real, magic also has to be since undead are magical beeings. so there would be counter measures against undead. the possibilitys are endless where humans have spare time. you could literally enchant a whole road so undead wont be able to touch the stones. Tthat would lead to undead in certain secluded places, but the general landscape should be rather untouched as long as the undead dont spread the decay directly to it. But all that can only happen when humans had the chance to adapt. They would be screwed if that wasnt the case.
Hi Metatron, this sounds like a great series idea. I really like the idea of defining out the characteristics of a creature, then exploring the ramifications on society if it existed. For example, what kind of undead? What about Post-Romero zombies like the Walking dead? I think a scenario featuring these zombies would play out very different from the one you just described. These zombies would not be in armies (but maybe swarms) and would most likely be peasants. Communities could attract them to fortified locations with noise or some other form of bait, and dispatch them in pits, or by lowering a metal cage over a battlement with a spearman inside. Even with period technology and organization. It seems medieval societies should be able to deal with this type of zombie infestation without too much difficulty. Weren't communities in Europe already used to retreating into local fortifications? Likewise, couldn't a knight or community volunteer force use a basic gambison outfit and be able to handle a decent number of these critters? Didn't communities already employ volunteer watchmen in our own timeline as a kind of vigilante peacekeeper force? It's hard to imagine society changing outside some religious influences. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this? What are your thoughts?
I like how Warhammer fantasy Empire deals with the undead: they have a specialised god of death who is supposed to protect the dead from necromancy, an organisation of witch hunters to hunt the masterminds, a specialised order of knights to guard the graveyards and yet another order of knights who specialise in fighting the undead in battle. And the Excalibur in-universe is (obviously) a hammer. I think that's pretty realistic.
Thank you for doing this, I really liked it! It honestly hadn't quite set in just how much I love undead in fantasy settings. Demons are boring to me, but there's something awesome about undead because they're just an integral part of the world that people have to deal with and there's so much inherent potential drama with them as opposed to 'evil outsider' stuff. This was a super fun and very thought provoking video though! I've been running a dnd game for awhile now where just unwittingly I'd been lending undead quite a significance to everything. And I love how this videos getting my imagination going even more in that direction. (Here's where i just share my ideas for funzies, not including the ones starting to brew in my head after this video) Unlike other fantasy settings souls aren't well known about and aren't even fully a fact in the setting (because I like ambiguity) but scholars have found out that undead likely occur due to an innate magic that comes as part of the night, mixing with the bones (and sometimes flesh) of the deceased (usually only of the sentients) in some way. Nobody (except for some VERY wealthy and/or knowledgeable individuals) keeps bodies. Everyone cremates and different cultures do different things with the ashes. Some convert ashes into a sacred paint of sorts for their family homes to ward off bad spirits, others scatter it across any land they own/inhabit (even if its just a yard), along with other traditions too. Another source of drama is that getting enough wood to fully cremate people isn't actually easy because the primary sources of wood are man-made forests which naturally take a long time to grow to harvest-able sizes and can only handle burning so many bodies and the only true alternative is this one massive forest full of illusions, fey entities, and naturally occurring monsters. Only one settlement has ever lasted even on the outskirts of it. Places that have coal mines available have less of an issue, but distribution and ownership rights regarding these resources are a *serious* matter, creating another source of drama. With all this, war between people is very uncommon for very economic reasons (and also one deity, but that's irrelevant to this) and killings are treated especially seriously for the burdens they present.
As much as undead could be terrifying, the practice of producing undead can ba put in an optimistic light. A recent expansion pack from Guild Wars 2 featured a city controlled by a lich who promised protection via his undead soldiers in exchange for the city's subjugation. Moreover, undead can be used as workers more efficient than what manpower we had back in the day. No rest, no maintenance. In a scenario like that, mere zombies could spark industrialization faster and better than machines.
There was a very old game called Myth the Fallen Lords which told a fascinating narrative about a world overrun by undead, and their numbers had grown to such an extent that open battle was largely pointless. Rather the game was about essentially assassination missions against the group of wizards who were creating and commanding the undead. It was brilliantly told, but rather depressing as almost every mission was a last stand, and even the narrator doesn’t live through it.
I think a nice example of "medieval Europe + undead" would be the Witcher's universe. There are undead and a whole lot of other scary creatures, and humans would adapt by literally shifting their own culture towards keeping this threat at bay: you have guys whose job is just to kill undead, people would find a way to make corpses impossible to resurrect, killing would be really different depending whether or not the way someone dies actually affects his after life and so on.
The upside is that standard undead quarantine measures would have prevented plague outbreaks. The lack of travel, burning of bodies, and generally lower populations would have helped reduce them to isolated incidents.
Parent: "Raising a family is HARD!!"
Necromancer: "Not if they're buried close together...."
Ahahahaa!
Dude.... Too soon, but still I'll toast for that
Necroman-dad jokes
so corny lol
lol
I don't know. Skeletons lack a certain spirit, while ghosts have no backbone. And zombies lack guts. Not to mention that vampires are a bit long in the tooth.
I would say skeletons have even less guts than zombies. :)
No, the zombies lack a certain spirit, and the skeletons lack guts.
Ghouls it is!
Mummy are the perfect undead, because slow decaying rate and magical power that derived from the hom-dai curse.
I think you just won UA-cam
There is one thing i disagree with, and that is the length of this video. Its way too short for this topic.
Definitely. I would have loved to see a 90 minute video on this subject. This topic is quite ... infinite if you ask me.
Actually virology wouldev been a greater concern for europeans to master instead of dismissing the act of the plague as a unfortunate happenstance. Dont get me wrong the feild of medicine was trying with the limited growth it was allowed but im sure the first sign of a zombie plague those limitations would be casted away in a campaign of urgent importance to cleanse plague ridden areas.
This was ment for somebody talking about the plague comment
@Asen Merjanov, I would even go as far as to call this topic... undying.
Badam-tss.
Alternative history idea: "The Black Undeath"
Based in Europe during the ravages of the Black Death... But the victims succumbing to the sickness rise from the dead as zombies.
Somebody, make a movie!
probably would have been handled better.
Sounds like "medieval walking dead."
Mmmmmmmm YES DO THAT
Seven Proxies
I was literally just thinking about that exact same premise!
More than the undead I can't help but wonder how a genuine blessed paladin showing up would change a setting otherwise based on the real world!
Blessed by what and with what powers? Is it demonstrable? The effects would be wildly different.
Eh...
1) If he opposes the church: Devil's worshiper! Who slay him will seat at God's table in heaven!
2) If he's with the church: God is with us! Let's slay the unbelievers!
If actual god/God-blessed holy warriors started popping up and doing battle with each other, I'd say time to find a different planet...possibly a different universe.
Alot of 'generic fantasy light religion' and paladin tropes seem to be able to be traced to Zoroastrianism essentially. The religion itself is about being a 'warrior of light against the forces of darkness' somewhat according to some people who practice or converted to it today. In fantasy its like as if a Zoroastrian-ish religion got mixed with Norse or Celtic culture and folklore.
Some of the Persian Empires' aesthetics actually did resemble that of fantasy paladins including symbolism showing a white background and a 'sun' with light emitting from it I think in a way.
Nerfmancers would become rich.
Hey Noble Ones! Thank you so much for watching as always I really appreciate it!
If you like this sort of speculative videos which include alternate realities and a new revisiting of the fantasy worlds we love in a more realistic and educated view please let me know in the comments, and I'll turn this into a series!
Also for those of you who wish to support my work here on youtube and would like to see more videos on my channel but still keeping the same level of editing and quality please consider taking a moment to downlaod and instal the game The Walking Dead: Road to Surival!
If you try this game out for free you will be actively supportig my channel and the production of more quality content for you on the Metatron channel!
Link: spons.org/metatwd
Thank you so much to all those who always help me spread my wings!
Metatron
Metatron awesome work man, yes, it would be interesting to adres this kind of themes, I’m a writer and I’d like to talk about realistic artifacts, you know, those artifacts that can end the world, like the one ring or the infinity gauntlet, how would they work in a medieval theme where there’s no magic
What if there was a Zombie apocalypse instead of the Black Death
What about revenants? There like skeletons but way stronger,faster and smarter because they have human souls and where awaked for one reason only: !!revenge!!
In most fantasy stories where there is Ghosts. Fire like from a Torch Still Burns them
@Wind Walker Or he just does not like being insulted. I'd understand that.
>Vampire lords
>Picture of the Lich King instead of blood princess thal'ena
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Should have been Vlad von Carstein
Yep arthas is a paladin ..
He is not even dead,he is just coruppted, a dark paladin.
i guess he is not a wow fan^^
@@krivjeto well he was turned into a Death knight
One interesting aspect that always intrigued me about the Warhammer Fantasy setting is the fiefdoms of the Vampire Counts, and the heydey if Nehekara. Now some of these realms were or ended up completely undead. But during certain periods, the rulers practiced necromsncy but also still had living, human serfs and servants. Creating a kind of society where undead were used as manual labour and troops in their armies, serving their sometimes living masters.
What would a society look like where undead beings have become a normalized part of people's everyday lives?
A much worse timeline then ours, but not for the undead; what you envisioned is a society where undeads do all the work, this means that the majority of people would become useless. It would become a nightmare much worse of the next robotic revolution, since people were already treated like shit; in this timeline the few powerful people would have unlimited power on their lands
So I think it's a fun comparison. I didn't do too much research on the Tomb King specific lore but if I'm remembering correctly, Sylvania was a relatively happy place under the rule of Vlad Von Carstein. Not a Utopia by any means, but the living still had their own land in what was considered cursed territory and were able to get what they needed to survive, even being accepted by the Von Carstein's into armies, politics, and other things.
But isn't that just like the slavery that was a thing anyway? but more "profitable" since the "slaves" wouldn't need to eat or rest and wouldn't really rebell... if you actually had the magic to control them and basicly "re-program" them... :D
And I almost forgot... More profitable since you wouldnt need to smack a person with something and get him unconscious or whatever to enslave him... you just stab him with a knive and "Boom" new slave... :D
Sorry... I understand that it's not actually funny but still...
Ashen one, these are dark times indeed.
Touch the darkness within me
@@nasserfirelordarts6574 da boobs
@Shlomo PilpulStein nein
You forgot the truly scary part, undead sentient commanders, just imagine for a moment someone like Alexander the Great, Julius Ceasar, August Octavian, Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Valerian, Gallienus, Claudius Gothicus, Quintillus, Aurelian and lastly Vlad the Impaler, Vampire Lords, leading said armies, that is the real danger, they get stronger with age, get a bunch of abilities like going ghost mode, summon and command thunderstorms, so here is horrible real-world idea imagine tanks, prop/jet planes, IFV, carriers, destroyers, submarines FREAKING BATTLESHIPS by the likes of
Grave Guard & the Blood Knights from Warhammer fantasy, would be both scary and cool!
Soon the Legions of Dammed shall rise, they shall shake the very earth they tread upon, they shall darken the skies and blacken the waters, the Crimson Aquilla upon a black canvas shall reach across all 4 corners of the world!
AVE IMPERTOR, DEUS VULT, NOCTE PERPETUA, ROMA AETERNA!
And... you basically described the whole concept of Warcraft's Lich King.
Alexandru von Carstein Zarovich that sounds like a novel I read can't remember the title vampires brought the Roman empire to an end and yes Attila the Hun was the head of it all humans were not just blood supply they were the common folk to ennobled you had to be turned so they were selective about who they turned. anyway I lost it and can't get another one because it is not distributed in the united States for some reason how it got here I don't know
@@juliahenriques210 No more like Great and Might legions of undead nation belonging to Midnight Aristocracy of Sylvania the Vampire Counts, but that also works,
take away the vampire part and you just have a game of civilization
Iron maiden’s The trooper playing in background
i definitely want more! make this into series!
Agreed
Yes.
Totally yes!
It's a nope from me.
I'd rather see the channel stick with factual content.
The artwork was reasonably interesting, but that's all.
@@ianmacfarlane1241
Eh, different longships for different people I guess. Valid opinion nonetheless.
Well, traditionally SUN would make the undead's magic that ables them move to stop. Also the sound of BELLS and other metallic instruments like whistles and other metallic percussion ones. And FLOWING water undead can't cross. So that would put limits to their advance.
And how about light/holy/sun magic? Magic specifically designed to kill undead would be extremely useful.
Roman paladin: _"Yeah, bitch! Aqueducts!"_
LOVE IT! Moar please. Not just undead but all the hypothetical world scenarios! Great vid!
Sounds like an awesomely grim game, like a kingdom come deliverance mixed with dark souls
Unholly shit, that'd be a game I'd play!
@@nasserfirelordarts6574 may i suggest, warhammer total war? This is the reality atleast in some part of the World.
@@nietname2468 Is it actually possible to play as *them* ?
@@Petq011 yes, 3 differing ones.
I would suggest you read up on the lore though, may i recommend the: Lexicanum page?
@@Petq011 it is strategy though not rpg.
Loving the idea Metatron. I've also realized that if we assume the undead are controlled by one or more "necromancers" we would see the rise of professional witch hunter/assassins to "decapitate" potential hordes with one strike. I think the clergy would take this role, kind of like in the film "Priest" (2011) with Paul Bettany.
people start using fire instead off graves
Every corpse turned into ashes. Most problems solved. Humans are pretty clever creatures
@@evilkate9884 ash spawn?
Gopnik Dragonborn Not something that happens everywhere. Only two rogue mages are responsible for the ash spawn and they were using heart stone, rock imbued with the blood of a god, not an ordinary thing. Maybe if the ice monkeys learn how to dispose their dead there would be no draugrs you s'wit.
just tie their shoos togeather
@@evilkate9884 Draugers are just walking (shambling) talking (grunting) training dummies, the nords need somewhere to level their soldiers at.
The undead are truly a frightning oponent, but a question; its usualy established that undead move through magic means, would by that reason magic be also acessible to us, the living? If so we could develop tons of countermeasures, we would just need to be creative :D
By logic of most fantasy worlds, it depends on the "school" of magic so to speak I suppose.
I guess it depends on the setting. In movies It's usually a virus rather than magic that reanimates the dead. I would think without magic we'd only have to contend with zombies unless there was a mutation in the virus that made vampires.
Honestly the Nercomancy (magic type) zombies would be the more dangerous as the Necromancer could turn litterally any corpse into a new undead. But if Necromancy exists them so do other magics like wards, blessings, and offensive holy Magic like exorcisms and smiting. Those all being natural hard counters to Necromancy.
Virus type zombies on the other hand would primarily need living hosts and so burning bodies would be both a counter measure AND a weapon since you could cripple the zombie (disable/dismember the limbs) and then burn them. It would change combat tactics to be more about defensive formations than shock and awe like we see with historical Calvary charges.
@@kaimagnus5760 The worst scenario is a combination of the two, where a powerful necromancer, typically called a Lich, would spread plague and pestilence across territory it controls, infecting the lesser peasantry and natural wildlife while also taking it under his control with the same school of magic.
There's very little in the way of defense against that kind of threat, especially in a Black Death era setting. You'd essentially be boned, no pun intended.
@@Blurredborderlines Good point. Fun fact though, a Lich is a Necromancer that has turned himself into an undead. While that does take a lot of power that same scenario could still occur without the mage in question having achieved lichdom.
Thanks - great subject, stimulating the mind and stoking the imagination. Delivered as always, in your warm, friendly and inimitable style: both humble and authoritative at the same time. I salute you, Sir! Thanks for informing, educating and entertaining me so well, today, in the past, and no doubt in many times to come.
I think the Witcher does a good job of showing the relationship between humans and the undead
kind of, actual undead in the witcher are mostly just ghosts and spectres. necrophages and vampires in the witcher are all living beings, more akin to alien creatures from other worlds. its only the poorly educated people (non-witchers) that believe those monsters to be risen dead.
how you like that silver?
@commander31able you piece of filth
@@drago2210 That would be your impression, not fact, right? Since most of those appear out of the dead and in fact some missions are to 'burn' the dead to avoid them to turn into those creatures (or name them in the case of stillborns). So...
Sigourney Di Blasi No it’s not just his opinion that’s fact in the Witcher verse. Vampires in the Witcher are literally a living creature. However undead in the forms of specters or wraiths still exist. But undead skeletons or zombies to my knowledge do not exist.
@Metatron you missed one point. That is, while humans are being kept alive by low-thermic burning of sugars, obtained in food or transmuted from proteins or fats, undead need to be powered by other meanings.
While by lore undead are powered by magic or by the remaining energy of soul, that energy must've come from some sort of source and need to be replenished time to time. Probably we are speaking about some sort of self-contained plasma reservoir used to power up skeleton's ghost.
Also, while ghosts (probably surviving part of destroyed skeleton) are resistant to standard weapons, still there is some sort of energy that keeps them in shape - thus they can be actually quite sensitive towards EM fields and fire.
(Same is IMHO valid for other undead - thus electric warfare would be more developed.)
I've played AD&D since the early 1980s . The explanation of good and evil powers is that Good is connected to the Positive Material Plane and Evil is connected to the Negative Material Plane . Undead get their power from the Negative Material Plane , break that connection to defeat them .
Using Stronghold OST's... that's a truly awesome medieval type game
While undead armies certainly have all the advantages you mentioned, they also have (depending on the setting of course) a glaring weakness - the necromancer himself. While the loss of the leader is always a bad thing for an army, in the case of the undead the killing of the necromancer normally means that his entire army crumbles to dust. So in this alternative reality I think most armies will have specialized spec-ops/assassin squadrons to deal with these targets. Which propably also means that the profession (which probably have another name then) will be seen much more heroic in the eyes of the populus then in our world. unless ofc the Necromancer can command their armies from the safety of their hidden towers. Then we are doomed.
Undead+Stronghold music=awesome.
undead?? pah, the Knights of shad would destroy them all!!!!
Also what about Dragons?
Fear not, for MACHICOLATIONS!!!!! are with us.
The dragons were killed by pommel wielding undead
You should do if fairies or sorcerers were real next!
if fairies were real,nobody would give a shit. if sorcerers existed, then they'd be burned for witchcraft.
Not faeries, but the whole Tumulous people's empire.
@Blaze Flarer Eclipse still,if it was real,same punishment woud happen.
If sorceres is real then true there will be genocide but also war, which is not different in this era or previous war
First off, I have to say that I really enjoyed this video and would love to see you make a whole series out of it, it kind of reminds me of Shad's Fantasy Rearmed series. Maybe you guys could do some sort of colab on this general topic in the future.
I have to say that I've never heard of undead just wandering around all over the place. Unless the setting is a world or kingdom/city that's being overrun or under siege by undead, I've only heard of undead being confined to specific areas, either a certain forest or woods or a castle or some kind old city ruins. So, going by those kinds of settings, undead wouldn't be a huge threat, they would just create places that were to be avoided at all costs and where nobody would set up a farm, much less a village or anything larger.
Lastly, I'm right with you on ghosts and spirits. The idea of an evil ghost or spirit is something that really creeps me out. I'm ok with pretty much everything because I know I can at least attempt to fight back, eps. if it's at home where I have plenty of different tools that I could use. But an incorporeal entity, that freaks me out because I have no idea of how to fight back against something that can hurt me but I can't do a single thing to; I can't cut/stab it, I can't shoot it, I can't punch or kick it, I can't burn it, and so on.
You should call this series 'Low-Fantasy Earth' or something like that.
Sounds to me like the AD&D Ravenloft campaign setting .
More historical/fantasy videos like this, please! This was amazing!
Anyone else get nostalgic hearing the Stronghold music in the background?
This is fascinating. I'm a novice (fantasy) writer and I love the societal considerations you came up with. Wish I could sit down with you, buy you a cup of coffee or tea and have a chat about this sort of stuff as it pertains to my own writing.
To be honest if I where a king or a General I would pay a fortune to a necromancer just to get one on my side because of just how useful they are.
Then you can meat your maker and get a-boner.
It is interesting that you've brought this up, because I'm working on a game, that is based on exactly this :)
A strategy tower defense games?
@@kingrichard3990 No, more like heroes of might and magic.
@@ChonGeeSan good! Make it simple and interesting
@@kingrichard3990 I'll do my best ;)
"Vampire lords"
*shows Arthas Menethil post-Frostmourne*
exCUSE ME?!
(Still love this channel though)
Fun mind exercise. A storyline on how It all began could be so much fun
IMO the undead would be crushed in the modern world as well as the medieval one, and likely weaponized given that their intelligence is very low. However I would see this having a greater impact on medieval warfare. Great video as always!
Magical undead are not stupid. They are only limited by the decomposition of their bodies. And would be incredibly hard to overcome. If you were a soldier standing before an army of undead I think you'd take your statement back. Especially if they don't feel pain.. pain and fear are HUGE factors in medieval warfare. Imagine an opponent who is immune to both of those...
@Avenging Demon I never said "win over" I meant sort of walking dead style releasing them onto the opposition after having them captive. It also depends on what scenario we are talking about because on all the ones Im familiar with zombies and skeletons are just mindless hostile humanoids.
@@Auldus The reason I dont think skeletons or zombies are a match for humans is because of the physical capacity of each, in every zombie fiction its the protagonists are threatened because its usually dozens of zombies against 1 person or a group against hundreds; but in reality I see it very hard for these large groups of undead to form because it would first have to be the reverse scenario, a small group of weaker slower and uncoordinated corpses vs a society who is ready to wage war against an equal society.
If we are talking about about an undead army however, there are many variables to determine how organized and undead army could pseudo realistically be. But speaking on an individual level you still have to account for each undead minion being slower, weaker and possibly be capable of getting taking down in 1 hit (with medieval armament). As much as an undead foe is capable of inducing fear in a human army, there is another side to the coin in that the large majority of soldiers do not enjoy taking lives. War is traumatic not only for all the people that die around you, but also because humans are emotionally and psychologically not designed to kill other humans. Killing other people is most of what causes ptsd, along with depression and other issues. So while an enemy who doesnt feel pain can be intimidating, it is also one that you cannot feel sorry for and perhaps one that you would be eager to kill, or at least moreso than an actual human.
Sorry for this wall of text but I do enjoy discussing fantasy and medieval warfare.
@@Goldenleyend A regular human could easily be taken down by one hit of a medieval weapon. You will not continue fighting after a blade stabs into your kidneys, or an axe splits your helm and head in half. Also, even if the undead are mindless, they _do_ have one directive: to kill and consume the living. Thus, it's unlikely that a gaggle of zombies will simply amble about aimlessly, but they will make a beeline for the nearest living humans.
I do think that the fear of the undead would be a major factor, at least initially, for one simple reason: *their very existence goes against how we know the world to work.* Skeletons should *not* be able to walk and use weapons, or even see where they are going without any eyes or muscles. Dead bodies should not be able to claw their way out of the cold earth and feast on the living (why do they even need to eat?) The existence of the undead would be equivalent to having rain fall upwards, or for gravity to switch itself off at times. Also consider that soldiers, both medieval and modern, are trained to fight other human beings, who will fight using weapons and tactics roughly similar to what they were instructed in. Why is it that poorly equipped guerillas have given well-trained armies such grief over the centuries? It's because fighting something that does not fight in the way that you were trained is extremely difficult. And unless you can adapt your strategies _very_ quickly (or simply have enough resources to not care about losses) you will lose that war.
This factor is greatly exacerbated when facing the undead, because they *don't* care about resources or territory. Even if you kill a hundred of them for every one soldier you lose to death or permanently incapacitating wounds, that is still a step forward for the dead. Because whilst your soldiers grow tired, sick, and old, they do not. While your kingdom suffers starvation from lack of trade and the fields lying fallow, the undead have no need of coin or bread. They have all the time in the world, while your kingdom does not. Add that your rivals will likely not go easy on you just because you have a bit of a walking corpse problem, and you can see why the undead could easily wipe out most of medieval Europe.
As for weaponizing the undead, that could happen, but it probably would not be a viable option. How do you make sure that your skellies and zombies target the other fellows, and not your own men? How do you prevent them from coming back to your lands to ravage the villages? And how do you even go about capturing one without putting your soldiers at unncessary risks?
Now, this wouldn't be the case in the modern world, as we have far more destructive weapons at our disposal than any medieval army. A single infantry squad in any modern army has enough killing power to rout a medieval army. But back in the Middle Ages, when the amount of frightfulness men could bring to the battlefield was far more limited, the undead would truly be a scourge.
This sort of thing is why I love Metatron's videos. Not just the examination of armies in what-if scenarios, but also entire societies and cultures.
What if magic existed? And how would it work and interact with the universe? I had one explaination of how it would work within our universe, but I wanna hear yours!
what is your explanation? I is curious
Magic does exist, but it's nothing like it is cracked up to be
That is a very broad question. It depends on type of magic and scale of its' powers
@@kv-2thekingofderp866 atomic breath?
Some additional ideas : Architecture would most likely change especially in rural landscapes and houses would be built to be more defensible (multi-storey buildings with the ground floor having no windows and possibly not having any door instead the 1st floor would have a door and you would get up and down via ladder and as for getting supplies inside the house maybe a winch, the ground floor could be used for storing supplies) .
As Metatron said , people would most likely stop using graveyards because of obvious reasons (or make them outside of towns and be heavily guarded and designed as labirynths like in warhammer fantasy) , and along with cremation they could take an aditional step if after the cremation a skeleton remains and that is breaking the bones (there are some real life stories in which a deceased person which was suspected to be a vampire had their grave opened and skeleton rearranged into a pile or damaged to ensure they would not come back to life)
As for warfare , blunt weapons would be very popular along with heavy armour. I also suspect that a great emphasis would be put on mobility making cavalry even more important (lances could be modifed to have a metal plate instead of a tip which could make it effective against the undead)
Agriculture would also become harder as the undead could burn the crops if led by an intelligent creature (vampires,liches,necromancers)
As for defending against ghosts , not all ghosts could/should be malevolent (in many ancient mythologies there are spirits which protect your house if you bring them offerings) so that could be a way to defend against them. Also if magic is real then maybe use sacred inscriptions/rituals
I would also like to bring up some problems with the undead :
- Most undead (or atleast ones that are used en masse like zombies and skeletons) are described as stupid and as such they could be avoided , they would also be hard to coordinate on the battlefield (no self iniative,if they are only controlled by the general he would be overworked)
- If they are revived by magic rather than by some other means the population would be scared of potential necromancers and as such secrets of magic would be highly regulated and guarded (pr outright outlawed) and you would most likely get killed on the spot if you were suspected to be a necromancer.
- Due to the knowledge that dead might come to life people would actively try to destroy the dead so there would be a lot less of them in widely populated areas and could probably be found on forgotten battlefields and on the roads (some random travellers/merchants dying on the road and no one being around to make sure they don't return)
In settings with undead, priests might be able to purify or bless a corpse to prevent it from coming back to life.
This would be a great series, Ralf. Just keep up the good work (This was a great video).
Absolutely need more, love the looking into the economy, cities and population especially.
what an interesting thought experiment! pretty fascinating
5:58 Ah yes, stronghold music, you have good taste
In a more low magic setting with the undead, one without wizard or overtly magical items, you could have religion as a way to fight the undead. Maybe a ghost couldn’t enter holy ground, or the touch of a blessed item or holy water repels, harms, or destroys such undead. I suppose if that were the case, then eventually they would just get priests to bless everything. If this was the case, it would give a tremendous boost to the power and authority of the Catholic Church.
There is also going in the opposite direction - what about groups of humans which openly coexist with the undead? If we have intelligent undead creatures and not just shambling zombies, then there is no reason why they couldn’t ally themselves with human communities or even become leaders. This particularly makes sense with powerful undead like liches or vampires - something we see in fiction all the time. If such undead exist, it may be only a matter of time before they rule everything, unless some kind of supernatural protection or weakness exists.
Sort of what I was thinking in regards to your first suggestion. A reality where, if magic is a very hard to acquire, restricted, or minimalistic in its ability to approach the issue, and if holy sacraments or locations work against the undead, it would be a pro-church (or whatever religion in the fantasy setting) world.
Likely, the authority of such an institution, with repeated empirical evidence of them being capable of warding of such constant threats, would be hard to usurp or directly question since they may not hold the sword over society itself, but they keep it from coming down fast and hard.
In such a world, being a priest or an clergy member of the church would be an interesting professional decision since: A) the continued stability of society is on your head, so… no pressure B) since the rites would likely only work completely by an actual holy individual, their might be less immediate corruption in the church (at least in direct community interactions, higher up authority would still be debatable) C) such a priestly caste would likely be a lucrative one to join since you can literally charge any price or request any payment for your services since the church seemingly holds the monopoly over societal safety from the undead.
I was recently GMing a siege of an undead castle for my group and a few things occurred to me.
1. Starvation and supplies. The undead can't be starved out but they'd also be great at starving out if they were the attackers. No need to store food or water which means they could focus on maintaining a higher stockpile for ammunition. They also don't have a need for rest which means they could assault the castle walls during the night when humanoid defenders are resting.
2. Disease. If the undead don't get sick then stockpiling diseased bodies and using siege weaponry to fling them over castle walls, like was done at Caffa, would be super effective. They are at no risk of infecting their own troops so they could store and transport rotting remains to the siege and then use them on the defenders. Alternatively, spreading something like anthrax in the soil in the fields where the attackers might set up a camp would be a great way to overcome them. Further, you could imagine undead soldiers covering themselves in filth. This way they could potentially infect humanoid infantry or cavalry in a skirmish. That small cut you just got on your arm might have been a detriment with medieval sanitation as it was, but that skeleton was holding a pike covered in bacteria and other gross stuff.
One point, the undead defenders would still need water for extinguishing fires, I assume they want their castle or whatever fortifications they have.
How about Attrition? Undead don't heal their wounds often enough. Every hit is permanent damage unless dealing with liches and vampires.
I realy enjoy your work @Metatron just as I enjoy artist who made those artworks you used. Please credit those artists. They deserve to credit them as much as music compositors. Thank you for understanding. :)
I think you missed what might have been the most dangerous thing about a necromancer with a army of ghosts to go along with his undead army. In most settings, ghosts can CHOOSE whether or not you see them unless you have some special abilities and in any war one of the most power weapons is always knowledge. Ghosts would make the ultimate spies. Able to be invisible, intangible, with no need for rest and perfect memory and with the stronger ones, even capable of possession. Imagine an enemy army with and entire division of spies like that!
How dare you provoke my thoughts like that! What did they ever do to you?!
You are the best!!! Not only learn a lot from your medieval history knowledge but now you gave me beautiful ideas for my D&D campaign.
Metatron, Watch Kingdom in Netflix.
It has this very same premises, but on Korea
make this a series please. Your videos are a oasis of knowledge and wisdom. I am actually attempting to write a novel and your videos have given me some amazing insight into many things. Amazing channel highly recomended
Can you do a video on how to fight a golem and what weapons work against them
Whichever weapon you like after you go 10000 years back in time and tell a fellow human slave to introduce a hidden flaw in them.
Do more of this!
The church would have gained a LOOOOOOOOOOOTTT more power and influence
Only if its methods actually worked.
Actually in Heroes of Might and Magic 1 they had undead enemy unit (something like ghost, i don't remember) that grew its numbers by amount of troops it killed in an attack. It was probably the toughest enemy, and you had to fight it with army made exclusively of high-level creatures in order to have chances at winning.
Hey, Random Question:
Why does Bach's "Ricercar a 6" sound so random to me?
Because you're used to harmonies and Ricercar a 6 is counterpoint. Listen to the individual melodies instead of the wall of sound they create together.
He was a prophet. He predicted ricer cars.
@@andersengman3896 Is it because I'm used to it, or because it's more pleasant for human beings.
I am a DM for a D&D group and this was helpful. I have a land dedicated to an undead nation essentially. And in lore the lore they fought a war with the rest of the world. This video considered some topics I hadn't taken into account and appreciate the information presented. Also I appreciate the music, Stronghold was a favorite game of mine when I was younger and hearing was very nostalgic.
Is it halloween already Raf? :D
I would like to point something out: if there are hoards of undead roaming the country, then most farms and such areas would get overrun or abandoned and unless a new system of perhaps fortified agricultural areas were to be implemented, agricultural production would cease and everyone would starve.
Most myths and legends are based on some kind of truth.
Metatron I must say as an RPG player that ALWAYS chooses the necromancer class every chance I get I really enjoyed this vid. And would like to see more "food for thought" style vids. Very entertaining.
Please make this a series. This is fascinating.
My own addition to this discussion: a big part depends on how you kill undead in this world - is only the head a target, like in Walking Dead? What happens if you cut off a limb - can it still move, like in PotC or is it cut off from the magic that keeps these things moving? How much does it take to cut a limb off of the magic?
An interesting choice would be to not be able to kill them at all, because they're already dead. Then, the second option would be to immobilize them for example. Weaponry would focus on things like traps, nets, etc. It would become focused on non-lethal ways of stopping an enemy because lethal ways don't work (and if you use them against living enemies, it would add a soldier to the undead army)
I know that may exist several games with a world like that, but i couldn't stop thinking in The Battle for Wesnoth while watching this video.
Undead would not tire in a battle, while the signs of tiredness would show on humans soon.
Even with improved metalurgy, an all-heavy army would be slower than real medieval armies.
An undead siege would also be deadly. They have aaaaaall the time and need no supply lines. (They can also catapult some rotten zombies in :) )
Ghosts don't even have to be deadly. Just keep key people awake 24h a day, and haunt the rest to demolish morale.
I really enjoyed this video! It was well thought out and mirrors opinions that I've held about a similar topic! However don't stop making your historical videos! I find that they are very informative and make me appreciate the ingenuity of our forebears!
About the logistics of undead armies. Though they don't need supply, they can't march endlessly either. Daytime is still much of a problem and finding shelters from light for thousands of undeads every day can be difficult.
An undead army could have problem crossing running water. Vampires are specifically known for having problem with it, but skeletons, zombies and other unintelligent undeads may be too stupid to take appropriate measures.
Their stupidity makes them very susceptible to traps and without any ability to learn, you can use the same trap every time. I guess that aspect depends on how much control undead commanders have on their troups.
Better video than most. I appreciate the mature approach to the topic, and the looking at oft-neglected aspects of world building (economy, religion, trade, production, architecture.) Would love to collab on or see more videos involving these.
Great video, I like that you remembered the burning of the dead as I have seen many forgetting that part
Great video. One thing about Ghosts, generally ghosts are bound to a specific loation like a house, castle or ruins. That in itself strongly limits the effectiveness of ghosts.
Metatron, I love your analysis but (like many others) you skipped one very important detail: farming. A medieval society is mostly farming supporting a tiny percentage of the population living in cities, and that farming needs to continue to keep the cities fed, so the entire population (even most of the population) can't hold up behind city walls without running out of provisions.
I thought about this aspect too. Depending on the nature of the undead invasion, this necessity would lead farm hands be trained with bows (like in England) and they would get rid of your occasional wandering zombie.
@@dohlecarnett1866 This combined with palisades, fences, or some kind of cheaper/simpler barricades
I'm now genuinely inspired to run a D&D game during a medieval style undead apocalypse where the party starts off as "couriers" who break curfew and jump the walls at night to wander about and do tasks for "clients."
Please make this a series, it is a very entertaining and thought provoking topic
In Heroes of Might and Magic 2 and 3 the Undead are the strongest Town. The only way to beat them is to rush them before they ammas there armies.
Heavily investing into weapon and armour improvements would be one of the worst options imaginable. It's all well and good when your soldiers are geared like gods. But should they join the undead army, you will have to fight against well equiped undeads. And that's just scary.
the undead have never really been portrayed as "good" which is kind of a bummer. As with many things in life, nothing is usually just "purely bad"
Personally speaking, one thing about ghosts and undead in general is this: if they are "just another race or faction", it makes sense for them to have a lethal weakness to something that can be used as a weapon to destroy individual ones in a definitive way; however, if they are "a greater threat" from another sphere of existence, they should still have a weakness to relics and religious items, but they are still unkillable.
In the latter case, during nighttime ghosts start appearing in the streets but are unable to enter households, stores, palaces and any other enclosed building as long as there is a religious item hanging on the door. And here would come into place a "natural law" that would dictate the coexistence of the undead and the living: shamblers (zombies and skeletons) can move anywhere they are physically able to, both in daylight and at night, therefore walled cities shut their gates when they spot any; ghosts instead can only manifest themselves at night and can even roam the streets of a city at night, but can only phase through doorframes (and maybe even windows), so the people would pretty much nail religious items on the door and/or hand them over their windows, just like in real life they would hang garlic. Now these two aspects would affect the society, lawcode and religion of a real-life setting, with religious iconography and curfews having an additional reason to exist and be used.
I find assumption that undead don't need rest bit underthought. In any world there should be rules of conservation of energy. Each motion needs some source of energy. So undead should require some rest time to accumulate energy(which brought them back in first place). Unless concentration of said energy is so tremendous in the air, so they don't need downtime. In this case living ones are screwed. But perhaps they would develop ways to block this energy from leaking into settlements.
There is something to be brought up, there is a Priestly Order in Warhammer Fantasy dedicated to making sure Graveyards are not Necromantic Superstores, and that Souls stay in the Afterlife, the Order of Mor, the God of Death. If I remember correctly, their holy weapon is a Mace.
I quite enjoyed this Raphs, please do more! Very interesting.
YES PLEASE!!! As an author this kind of video is very interesting for me. I had to work my head around a lot of the things you talked about here and it was great to hear you coming to similar, albeit more informed, conclusions. :)
bro, you won me over with your Sekiro video, and this video was also epic, also, you probably hear this alot, but you sound unnervingly like Ramsy Bolton
Great video I like fighting draugr in Skyrim and vampires and skeleton
Omg yess! I would love to see more like this! Please do a video on what the world would be like if Intelligent Dragons, Elves, and Dwarves existed. Loved this video. Also what about Phoenixes? Would they, could they ward off the Undead?
As for ghosts, keep in mind two things:
1. In folklore, they are often bound to the place where they died. Usually, they can't leave the building where they died. That means they can't join undead armies, and their use as undead spies and infiltrators is limited.
2. Can they interact with the physical world at all? While in tabletop RPGs, video games and some other media they usually have physical attacks (often associated with cold or draining the life force), or magical attacks, in folklore they often can't interact with the living in any way other than being seen and heard. They can't harm people, other than if you die from a heart attack after seeing one ;)
Also, it's not uncommon for ghosts in folklore to be good. Ancestor spirits giving good advice or bringing luck or protecting the settlement from evil spirits? Makes sense, why would they cause harm to their descendants?
Love it. Do turn it into a series.
I never knew you are in to this kind of things. An interesting change of pace.
Next to the aspect of farming, I think it would be important to talk more about the social changes. Wouldn't many feudal lords in these times not feel the need to become warriors again?
Sure. That type of videos sound like fun. I don’t miss whenever Shad. Does a fantasy reimagining like you just did
Scary thought about skeletons. They don't have muscles to move their bones. They are simply moved by magic. That being said, what's to limit the speed at which they can articulate their joints?
Well if magic is really just the spiritual and paranormal version of science, then I think their speed would depend on how strong the magic moving them is.
Something like..... Stronger spirit energy equals more movement speed capabilities.
Loved the video. I hope you turn it into a series
Sorry but I personally dont think there would be so much undead as you think since a constant undead threat would mean:
1. People wouldnt wage so many wars since battles increase the risk of undead infestation.
Also they wouldnt fight eachother because there are jsut better things to kill/ double kill.
2. there wouldnt be so many dead people outside since there wouldnt be so many people venturing the lands. so random encounters would be rare.
3. communitys would be much smaller since trade is a vital factor for population growth.
4. weapons would have been adapted to killing undead from the start.
5. incineration after death would be law, so there wont be graveyards and any traveler loosing a member would put efford into burning his body.
6. If undead are real, magic also has to be since undead are magical beeings. so there would be counter measures against undead. the possibilitys are endless where humans have spare time. you could literally enchant a whole road so undead wont be able to touch the stones.
Tthat would lead to undead in certain secluded places, but the general landscape should be rather untouched as long as the undead dont spread the decay directly to it.
But all that can only happen when humans had the chance to adapt.
They would be screwed if that wasnt the case.
Hi Metatron, this sounds like a great series idea. I really like the idea of defining out the characteristics of a creature, then exploring the ramifications on society if it existed. For example, what kind of undead? What about Post-Romero zombies like the Walking dead?
I think a scenario featuring these zombies would play out very different from the one you just described. These zombies would not be in armies (but maybe swarms) and would most likely be peasants. Communities could attract them to fortified locations with noise or some other form of bait, and dispatch them in pits, or by lowering a metal cage over a battlement with a spearman inside.
Even with period technology and organization. It seems medieval societies should be able to deal with this type of zombie infestation without too much difficulty. Weren't communities in Europe already used to retreating into local fortifications? Likewise, couldn't a knight or community volunteer force use a basic gambison outfit and be able to handle a decent number of these critters? Didn't communities already employ volunteer watchmen in our own timeline as a kind of vigilante peacekeeper force?
It's hard to imagine society changing outside some religious influences. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this? What are your thoughts?
I'm hearing the Stronghold game ost in this video, and I love it.
I like how Warhammer fantasy Empire deals with the undead: they have a specialised god of death who is supposed to protect the dead from necromancy, an organisation of witch hunters to hunt the masterminds, a specialised order of knights to guard the graveyards and yet another order of knights who specialise in fighting the undead in battle.
And the Excalibur in-universe is (obviously) a hammer.
I think that's pretty realistic.
Love the variety of your videos :) keep it up!
Thank you for doing this, I really liked it! It honestly hadn't quite set in just how much I love undead in fantasy settings. Demons are boring to me, but there's something awesome about undead because they're just an integral part of the world that people have to deal with and there's so much inherent potential drama with them as opposed to 'evil outsider' stuff. This was a super fun and very thought provoking video though!
I've been running a dnd game for awhile now where just unwittingly I'd been lending undead quite a significance to everything. And I love how this videos getting my imagination going even more in that direction.
(Here's where i just share my ideas for funzies, not including the ones starting to brew in my head after this video)
Unlike other fantasy settings souls aren't well known about and aren't even fully a fact in the setting (because I like ambiguity) but scholars have found out that undead likely occur due to an innate magic that comes as part of the night, mixing with the bones (and sometimes flesh) of the deceased (usually only of the sentients) in some way.
Nobody (except for some VERY wealthy and/or knowledgeable individuals) keeps bodies. Everyone cremates and different cultures do different things with the ashes. Some convert ashes into a sacred paint of sorts for their family homes to ward off bad spirits, others scatter it across any land they own/inhabit (even if its just a yard), along with other traditions too.
Another source of drama is that getting enough wood to fully cremate people isn't actually easy because the primary sources of wood are man-made forests which naturally take a long time to grow to harvest-able sizes and can only handle burning so many bodies and the only true alternative is this one massive forest full of illusions, fey entities, and naturally occurring monsters. Only one settlement has ever lasted even on the outskirts of it.
Places that have coal mines available have less of an issue, but distribution and ownership rights regarding these resources are a *serious* matter, creating another source of drama.
With all this, war between people is very uncommon for very economic reasons (and also one deity, but that's irrelevant to this) and killings are treated especially seriously for the burdens they present.
As much as undead could be terrifying, the practice of producing undead can ba put in an optimistic light. A recent expansion pack from Guild Wars 2 featured a city controlled by a lich who promised protection via his undead soldiers in exchange for the city's subjugation.
Moreover, undead can be used as workers more efficient than what manpower we had back in the day. No rest, no maintenance. In a scenario like that, mere zombies could spark industrialization faster and better than machines.
There was a very old game called Myth the Fallen Lords which told a fascinating narrative about a world overrun by undead, and their numbers had grown to such an extent that open battle was largely pointless. Rather the game was about essentially assassination missions against the group of wizards who were creating and commanding the undead. It was brilliantly told, but rather depressing as almost every mission was a last stand, and even the narrator doesn’t live through it.
Yes do more on this it was really good my friend.
I think a nice example of "medieval Europe + undead" would be the Witcher's universe. There are undead and a whole lot of other scary creatures, and humans would adapt by literally shifting their own culture towards keeping this threat at bay: you have guys whose job is just to kill undead, people would find a way to make corpses impossible to resurrect, killing would be really different depending whether or not the way someone dies actually affects his after life and so on.
The upside is that standard undead quarantine measures would have prevented plague outbreaks. The lack of travel, burning of bodies, and generally lower populations would have helped reduce them to isolated incidents.