New TTRPGs and a DND 5e KILLER?!
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- This could be the end of DND 5e depending on how all these new TTRPGs shake out. Dungeons and Dragons seems to have brought this upon themselves and now Critical Role, Matt Colville, Kobold Press, and more have new tabletop RPG systems in the works. Both Illuminated Worlds and Daggerheart sound interesting but will Critical Role and Matt Mercer pull away from DND 5e? Or will Kobold Press Project Black Flag sweep us off our feet with an upgraded version of DND 5e before OneDND is released?
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I am so excited for all 3 systems while continuing to love Pathfinder 2E. More competition means better content for everyone. :)
Absolutely! And I'll be jumping right back into some Pathfinder content after this so don't worry there! :D
Oh heck yeah!
That's the spirit!
I can't wait to see what other games spawn from all of this! Also, thanks for such an amazing show of our game! The "abigmonster has entered chat" had me laughing. Love it.
Haha I had some fun with it! I’m glad y’all enjoyed it too! 😊
Kobold Press official name for their TRPG is Tales of the Valiant
Yep! Thanks for the update! I've had a few comments letting me know I missed that announcement.
WotC killed D&D first .
True story
Beat me to it.
Yep... Those new games are just looting the corpse...
Lol! They won’t dent D&D. Not everyone feeds the troll UA-camrs, not by a long shot.
@@LyonHart1313 sure whatever shill .
The point this misses, is that the "online TTRPG community" is, in fact, an "online D&D community", and is fundamentally incurious when it comes to games that don't run on the d20 system.
If the OGL debacle was the biggest thing ever - that's because you only play D&D.
All of the online creators who were screaming about WotC went straight back to making videos about multiclassing and "10 rules everyone gets wrong/forgets/whatever in D&D 5e".
Anyone who wanted to leave the OGL and WotC behind just needed to go and pick up one of the multitude of games from a different publisher, which they could have done at any time before or since.
I mean, I wouldn't say that "all" of the online creators went right back to it. Every other video I put out now is about Pathfinder or some other TTRPG haha.
Who knew that their ambition to make One D&D, they ended up starting a converging point, pathfinders to the 5e system
Similar to 4th edition.
Shadowdark
To be clear, I backed Shadowdark, but a $1 million KS product won’t even be noticed by WotC.
@@LyonHart1313 I just don’t see a lot of staying power with Shadowdark. It’s another rules lite clone with a retro feel (and with excellent presentation), but I’d be pretty surprised is people have much to say about it in a few years. I’d be happy to be wrong, though.
@@steelmongoose4956 I think we will end up saying this about every one of these so-called competitors.
The MCDM game ought to be great when it's done. Matt and several people on his team are already video game designers, and have been making top tier RPG content for years. Best thing is they are very conscious of how VGs and TTRPGs differ. That's how they've made such good cinematic supplements that really work - best of both worlds, baby. Cannot wait.
I couldn't agree more! I feel like so many people are sleeping on that one!
Remembering back to how the CR group struggled so much going from Pathfinder to 5e... I'm going to go ahead and say that they probably won't be playing more than one system at a time lol. They have too much going on, and can barely remember the actual rules of 5e without Matt, especially in those earlier episodes.
Haha that's totally fair! I think we'll likely still see DND retain the majority of market share but I like that we can have more well-known options like we have with pathfinder should WOTC and Hasbro ever get brave again.
@@ConstructedChaos we can hope! More competition will make all the systems better, ideally.
This will likely not kill D&D as 5th was going great numbers before a critical roll and DMMC. In fact, if you are old enough the following things were all considered D&D killers - Magic the Gathering, Vampire and the World of Darkness, Call of Cthulhu, Pathfinder and Video games - even 4h edition was said to kill D&D. What happened was (except for 4th) those other things got dedicated fan bases and survived along side D&D. I expect that this will be the case again.
I'm inclined to agree with you but I won't say for sure just yet. I just wanted to speak to the possibility since I've heard so many players saying they thought DND could get rocked by this!
@@ConstructedChaos Hey it is always fun to talk about and I hope that a lot of folk want to see it.
Wont change from D&D and know most of the people wont move. Sounds good though, always good with competition that will help also make D&D better in the future :)
I think a lot of players and DMs feel the same way and I definitely agree that more competition drives the entire hobby forward!
I wish everyone the best, regardless of what TTRPG system works best for them. I think the competition in the marketplace is good and I personally have found my TTRPG home in Shadowdark after exiting 5e. I'm not interested in any of these newer systems but I am genuinely happy that there will be more choice and industry support for alternatives.
I'm right there with ya, Todd! I'm just happy to see more options for players in the TTRPG space. BTW, I'm a huge fan of your builds, friend! Keep dungeoning!
@@ConstructedChaos Thank you, kindly, Next week should be a good one. The players decided to investigate the basement of a Wizards tower after the wizard teleported his tower away from a raging Tarresque, What could possibly go wrong in a Wizards basement, right? ;)
@@ToddPutnam Hahaha nothing has ever gone poorly in a multi-tiered dungeon layout beneath a wizard's tower... never.
Looking forward to trying Daggerheart.
Same here! I hope they bring it to Gen Con so we can get a look at it!
The hobby needs fewer 5e clones and more original games.
I couldn't agree more with ya!
As a certain elf would say: Dagger, dagger, dagger.
worlocks of the coast be shaking in their boots
Haha I genuinely wonder what their reaction to all of this is if not regret.
cool, i'm in love with Dungeon crawl classics right now. I love old school pulp fantasy.
Sweet! I've never played that one but I've heard mostly great things about it!
I love Matt Colville's GM philosophy, but he likes very different games than I do. I'll probably buy MCDM's game just to support it, but I'm sure it'll be too crunchy for my tables.
It very well may be but I've been following their progress and design philosophy and they're really honing in on what's fun and what isn't at a base level. It might be crunchy but I think I'll be okay with that if I'm not feeling bored doing the same thing over and over again!
When was this video filmed, Black Flag got already renamed to Tales of the Valiant?
Tales of the Valiant was revealed as the new name on April 7th, but Dagger Heart was announced just a few days ago, so this guy has just not been paying attention to Kobold Press.
I kinda stopped paying attention after the second playtest. I've been waiting for the next entry. Outside of adjustments and updates to the rules, I didn't think any news would come so I didn't see it.
@@ConstructedChaos The have released news updates every Friday since the first Playtest.
@@Hey-Its-Dingo Nice! I'll keep an eye out from here but I'm still not super interested in a system that is just trying to improve upon 5e slightly.
While I don't think any of these will ever become bigger than D&D it will be fun to see what systems are created. The only bummer is that splitting up the D&D community into many small communities will lead to even hard times finding games.
A voice of reason! Thank you!
I'm not so sure that'll be the case but I can at least follow your logic here!
Shadowdark just recently had a successful Kickstarter a mix between 5e and old school ttrpg
I'll need to have a look at that one soon!
My biggest concern is that there were already alternatives to Dnd but by far people played Dnd, now that many companies are putting time and money into creating their own systems and games, will they get enough play to survive? I’m not sure how many will get enough return on their investment. Piazo gave me hope in their goal of collaboration but still, look at how many game/content companies are making a new game, will they be distinct enough to draw people in or will it lead to them closing their doors?
I think having big names attached to these other options will see them gain more traction.
I'm also currently working on a Replacement D&D 5e core rule system.
Oh nice!! Where can I check that out?
@@ConstructedChaos
It's not currently public.
It's still in the works.
@@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec Roger that! Well, I'll keep an eye out for it!
KP's version sounds interesting. I remember the comments of 'What?! You're basically using 5e, WTF?!'
Their response......'Yeah....we know. Kinda the point.'
Yeah I just think they'd have had a better time if they were more upfront about what they were attempting to do from the start.
@Constructed Chaos it had sense once you stopped and thought about it for a minute. Easy import of 5E stuff, no need to learn a new system. And I lije the idea of flavoring characters with less than traditional backgrounds. Ex. My Half-Drow cleric, Gevive. Born to a Drow mother (Rouge) and a human father (retired Ranger), worked on the farm for most of her life on the surface. Eventually answering the call of Eilistraee.
@@MWH12085 I guess the true test will be comparing what they create with the rest of OneDND playtest as it comes out.
Wait this was all an elaborate advertisement for your sponsor 😢😂
Lol it definitely wasn't but I am really good at making sure my sponsors are relevant to my video topics and not just some random unnamed VPN service.
I personaly I love D&D 5e and I don't want it to dye, but, I don't hate the idea of new TTRPG system
The stuff from MCDM continues to be the most compelling in my eyes. I don't think any of these will kill D&D but it should push them to make the game better!
@@ConstructedChaos I think exactly the same thing and hope that Wotc will be intelligent enough to catch that
I have been doing DnD 5e for a few months with Curse of Strahd with my Kensei ninja and so far, it's been good but I have recently gotten to try out Mork Borg and it's a very different game. I still prefer DnD though, but I do want to try WoD and Palladium's TMNT and Other Strangeness.
There is no “one tabletop rpg to rule them all” - there are lots of great games out there that do different things or do the same thing differently. IMO familiarity with different systems makes running games and modifying them much easier.
Michael, you're absolutely right on this one!
WotC fell on their own greedy sword in spectacular fashion at the beginning of the year. They created this environment. So now its time for all of these companies to put their best content forward. May the odd be ever in your favor.
It wasn’t greeed - it was incompetence! Even investors had said the new leadership team at Hasbro was not up to snuff and they were not hiring good people to lead the brand. Everything you are seeing is what they (the greedy investor) feared would happen.
Bit of column A, bit of column B haha
Have you checked Godforsaken?
I haven't yet!
Shadow of the Demon Lord is closer to being 5e than Pathfinder 2e
I'll have to take a look at that one!
So, in the end no one will kill dnd because all the people critical with it will split between dozens of games and no one will be provided with enough content since creating content is hard.
Your prediction here isn't uncommon and I do hope you're wrong but I think we'll see at least several other TTRPGs do well from here. Specifically, plenty of other options have sustained themselves just fine during the life of DND 5e.
if its a 5e clone i wont touch it
Yeah I think I might pull a few ideas from it for my 5e games but it's unlikely I'll play Black Flag at this point.
After Hasbro killed D&D, Critical Role and MCDM are here to animate the corpse and build an empire out of it
Seems that way!
hyperbole. I see my 5e tables all full so no, D&D wasn't killed by Hasbro or anything else.
@@Nexusofgeek I do think that their audience took a hit to say the least. And they definitely opened the door for other systems to come and take a slice of the pie!
I don't think It'll kill dnd.. but it'll bite a huge chunk out of it if they don't mess up the new RPG completely. But it's funny. I hope this forces dnd owners to be making better dnd to try and keep their playerbase.
I hope dnd dies as D&D, especially AD&D is far better.
@@TravisWilliams_ D&D has been through worse.. I just hope a good crew picks it up if Hasbro goes belly up. (inb4 Microsoft purchase)
@@bionic5944 I can’t comment on 4e as I never played it but I’ve played every other version and 5e is by far the worst in comparison. AD&D being the best in my opinion.
@@TravisWilliams_
Started in 2e. Talking about dungeons and dragons as a whole. WOTC/Hasbro currently holds the rights and they're working towards killing the brand for a non-existent buck. Hope it gets better for the players.
@@bionic5944 I moved away from 5e ages ago. There are a lot of amazing games out there from smaller publishers. All these UA-camrs should stop pushing Pathfinder 2e, that’s not the answer, it’s just better known. Shadow of the Demon Lord, Hyperborea, Knave, Old School Essentials, EZD6 are just a few games that people should be looking into.
I'm still learning stuff in 5e after 5 years of playing - not sure I could handle multiple systems...
And this is why D&D will get through this-very few people will want to have to learn a clone version of the game they already play.
5e just has a lot of edge cases. Almost every other ttrpg is both simpler and more fun to play.
@@clavicleskeletoni3638 Agree to disagree.
I felt the same way until I was encouraged to try PF2e. Since then, I feel like I understand other systems much more easily and, honestly, have deepened my understanding of 5e retroactively as a result.
Nah D&D survived 40+ years before the CR crowd and it will continue without the critters. Best thing is they will all go follow this new TTRPG and I won't have to see them on my feed (hopefully)
I think you're probably right but I don't really understand or support your distaste for such a large part of the TTRPG community. Everyone deserves to play these games and have fun with them.
@@ConstructedChaos it isnt the community I have an issue, it is CR itself, which I find to be overrated but hey that is my opinion, all I am saying is that I will be happy when I type in D&D in search engines and I won't have to see Mercer's crew. One can dream can't one?
@@Nexusofgeek I see. You're welcome to that opinion, then! CR refers to their community as "critters" so I thought you were talking about their entire audience in broad strokes.
Problem: Social media algorithms heavily favor existing properties.
It's risky for crestors to change systems.
I wonder about that. I honestly assumed that making pathfinder content would see my channel's success drop a bit but those videos perform much better than expected.
Critical Role's system will be basically the same as Tales of Valiant, a variation of D&D since they have content already, and it would take a while to fix everything or worse, re-release them, and it will look bad to the public, hence why KoboldPress did it this way. It has to be compatible with their current content. And more importantly, CR are great at story telling, but their homebrew and understanding of mechanics leave a lot to desire from. They aren't that good at it, they will probably have to hire someone else to make the system for them, but instead of being Matt's system or other staff member, it will be some random Joe's system and that won't be good for anyone in the community.
I'm not so sure that it'll be such a carbon copy of 5e as what we got from Kobold Press. But, I've also been wrong before!
I am genuinely interested to see what Matt has to offer just because he has an incredible mind when it comes to understanding systems but I seriously have SOME doubts with Critical Roles games without knowing who is exactly working on those games. Most of these newer games are being geared towards normies and some art in the latest games just don't do it for me. I know they have their fanbase but I never liked Critical Role past like the first year when the games felt more genuine and not scripted. Wotc did this to themselves.
This is so laden with gatekeepy bullshit. Christ...
I own hundreds of RPG books from dozens of systems. However, I have zero interest in KP, MC or (especially) CRs new games - but then I also have no interest in 5e, so I guess that's no surprise.
That's totally fair! That said, you really should give more love to MC! His TTRPG is nothing like 5e and it's why I still hold a lot of excitement for his system.
I don't care for CR. I don't like 5e. I actually never played it, but know enough to not like it. I even don't care for fantasy ttrpgs in general, BUT all that being said, after watching the system breakdown I'm VERY interested in trying out Daggerheart. It has a ton of mechanics that sound like a ton of fun.
LOL. D&D is well, strong and Alive. 5E, FeatFinder, Black Flag and DaggerHeart are far from the Spirit of D&D and closer to Dungeons & Diversity, WOW and superhéroes in fantasy.
Black Flag is literally based on 5e, though haha. How could you possibly consider it far from the spirit of DND?
I don't think people will leave dnd just because new systems get released, however I do believe that these will light a fire under WOTC ass to start putting out better stuff, otherwise the new systems WILL pull their audience
I'm honestly here for any outcome because I think this can only mean better systems and rules for all of us!
@ConstructedChaos as a new professional dm who's about to start running his first paid game I really just want 5e to improve. Making another world would be maddening lol
@@THESHADOWMASTER9 That's totally fair!
There is no chance that D&D is going to be dethroned. I don’t want D&D to be the top TTRPG company. I’m just talking realistically it won’t happen. If they were going to be surpassed it would be Pathfinder not some new random system. People have way to much time and money invested in D&D. To stop using 5E, buy MORE books, learn the new system efficiently, and then use that new system to continue a ongoing campaign is just not worth the switch. I could believe people will just stop buying future D&D books and use the 5E system base books to just fully homebrew going forward rather than invest time and money into a whole new system.
I try to refrain from speaking in absolutes but I do think it's likely that DND keeps their top spot. Stranger things have happened though!
DND Killer? Doubtful. Let's face it, Pathfinder (arguably the biggest competitor) has failed to do so. However, I love trying new systems. Index Card RPG. Pathfinder. Fate. Fudge. Whatever. Will I try Daggerheart? Certainly. Then I will take what I want from it and walk away. But killing DND after 50 years of history? Ehh... doubtful. I STILL play B/X D&D.
I don't think it's likely but I do think there's a chance--not that I'm hoping DND dies or anything. Just trying to consider all sides!
KP's 'game' really is just more of the usual 5e hacks they're most known for. I passed after the first PT dropped.
MCDM's game is sounding really exciting but I just can't afford the Patreon sub to see the development.
Illuminated Worlds might be more what I prefer: short arcs and fast turns.
Dagger Heart sounds like more of what I'm bored with D&D: hours of players panting and gasping out their edgy backstories through several dozens of sittings and combats that take more time to resolve than a 5k point game of Warhammer 40,000.
Hard pass if i'm right...most times I wish I was wrong.
I guess time will tell in terms of how it all plays out but I can tell ya that Matt Colville intends to also share some of the development details in his videos!
The market is already saturated. I probably wont watch cr as much if it isnt d&d. 5e is already so easily adaptable that it will be tough to devote the time to something that simply doesnt have the resources.
I'm not sure if it's quite saturated yet since players of these systems can purchase and run multiple TTRPGs at any given time but I do agree that CR is likely to stick with DND for the most part.
Nah. Alway support content and there's a lot of cool stuff out there. I'll always support dnd. Corporate greed? I'll ask you if pathfinder 2e is backwards compatible and the reasons why it's not. Pretty basic and of course wotc isnt always fantastic, it's at least consistent since taking the reigns of the tactical studies rules
project black flag should've gone with something a bit more fresh. personally, not interested in a 5e rehash. i'd rather a rehash of 4e tbh. I'm all for game/class balance with multiple options for players. as much as i love casters, i'm tired of casters being the solution for everything. i'd rather the martial/caster balance comes closer to video games/4E.
daggerheart should definitely take away the casual dnd player but it wont kill 5e. i'm not interested in daggerheart though. i'm more interested in a system that's more pick up and play that's geared toward modular/shorter campaigns. and i'm tired of d20 systems tbh.
I'm absolutely with ya on Black Flag. And I do agree that Daggerheart is unlikely to kill DND. Still, I try not to bet against CR after seeing how dedicated their fanbase is! Oh, and MCDM likely not being a d20 system is what makes me so excited about it!
I still think they should have stuck to their guns on the OGL. Its THEIR materials. They own DnD. I think its fair they wouldnt want people profitting off their intellectual property without royalties. Might not have loved all aspects of it, but ya, I think people forgot that the OGL was something that probably did need some updating. PF/PF2 would prove that pt.
1) "They own DnD"
They own the name, but if you're going by US law, then you can't copyright game mechanics. The OGL was more of a "we promise not to sue if you stay within these parameters", given that TSR had been quite happy to take people to court.
2) The major beneficiary of the "old" open OGL are WotC. It keeps a massive chunk of the TTRPG market playing their game system - if you want to play a cyberpunk or hard sci-fi game, then you can go off and pick up a third party "conversion", and you'll probably come back to D&D afterwards, rather than possibly move on and finding a different system that you prefer.
Also, the more games they have using d20, the better value for money their VTT appears.
@@arfived4 I dont deny there was benefit. What I stress it was THEIR choice, and as such if they want to change it to evolve to the times and to address those who very much appeared to just rip off DnD, ahem PF, then that is right to do. I mean, I hate everything about 4e, and think PF was a kick in the ass to get them to realize how terrible that shit was, but still, doesnt change the fact that PF took in a lot of money by taking from DnD. As to specifically what is and is not covered, there are SCORES of lawyers out there who can provide differing opinions so I will leave it there on that topic. I am not qualified to speak to that level of detail.
Honestly I'm excited to leave this crappy company behind and enjoy content made by actual fans.
I can totally understand that outlook! Maybe this competition will see hasbro loosen their grip a bit too and have DND become a bit more of what we want it to be.
My view: enough 5e clone, do something new and better. 5e is not the best game out there, just the most popular right now. We went backward to C&C instead for a more classical feel with modern mechanics.
Castles & Crusades is vastly superior to 5E and FeatFinder to play Dungeons & Dragons. Need some work with the siege system at High levels, but is a great system.
I agree that we need something new and different from 5e! That's why my favorite new option so far is the one from MCDM--even if it is in the infantile stages of development.
Its a 5e clone. I don't like 5e.
You mean daggerheart?
@@ConstructedChaos no sorry, kobalt press's black flag project aka Tales of the Valiant is a 5e clone. I don't like 5e. My dm is switching us to Valiant soon
@@Joshuazx Ahhh right! Yeah I'm not super stoked about valiant myself for that reason.
@@ConstructedChaos good to know I'm not the only one!
@@Joshuazx You definitely aren't. Although, their kickstarter is getting a ton of support so it's definitely got more steam behind it than I anticipated.
Critical Role might very well succeed with theirs considering their massive following. I hope they do manage to deliver on a game that satisfies the 'theater kids' side of D&D so they leave and perhaps the more 'war gamer' side of D&D can reassert itself.
Matt Colville has less than half a million subscribers on UA-cam, I'm less certain about his prospects. If he comes up with any good ideas, well, by sharing the creation process he's doing WotC's R&D for them because they've demonstrated their willingness to rip ideas off of PAIZO ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kobold Press are persona non grata after Amanda Hamon-Kunz wrote a chapter on 'white privilege' in the Kobold Press Guide to Game Mastering. Keep that shit out of the hobby or you're an activist, not a gamer.
You sound like a really open-minded thinker. 🙄
@@LyonHart1313 I'm sick of leftists ruining the things I enjoy. If you're so open minded, maybe you'll appreciate a joke: Why are trans women mutants? Because they're all x-men.
you must be fun at parties
Mercer is very bad at balance though
@@Joey099 Oh, thank you! Yes, I am,
Another games in development I recommend you should keep your eyes on is DC20TTRPG by Dungeon Coach and Vagabond by Indestructoboy (currently in Kickstarter)
gotcha! I've got a note from others to check both systems out as well so I definitely will!
Critical roll is a joke. Honestly the mercer effect has ruined so many campaigns. And when all these wannabes fail, they will go find a new hobby.
I wouldn’t call the largest live play production within the hobby a joke. And Matt has even gone on record saying that other people should not strive to run games exactly how he does. I’m not the biggest critical role fan but I’ve never understood the blatant hate for them. It’s always come across as jealousy to me.
@@ConstructedChaos The Mercer effect is the reason why. People are disgusted with newbies never played the game before demanding that GMs act more like Matt.
@@SageMasterRPG I understand the issue you're trying to put forward here but I don't know what you'd like Matt and the gang to do about it. They're playing the game they want to play and they've often driven home that not every game needs to be played that way. I think the real issue here is the inability to properly address these concerns at the table. If the player isn't receptive to it or wants the game to be run differently, that just means they may not be a good fit for the table. None of that is crit role's fault.