This sesion was a blessing to humanity. Most spiritual teachings changed heir students for their own goodness and the society. Spiritualy has been the direct way to convince us of our true nature the self. The digital Era has transform the world into a household. I have no doubt that the benefits can bring healing to humans & nature. When spiritualy teaches love the greatest gift not only the aspirants change but every were they go that energy vibrates. Both the Dr's who shared their work are examples what healing energy can do. Thank you for sharing the ancient secrets how wonderful human beings and spirit are one. Keep up the good work.
recently I've been listening to your interviews with both of these people, and now I've heard them speak together. until listening to these people, I have never had an interested in Vajrayana - I thought, from afar, that it would be too strange and overwrought compared to my similarly cursory glances of Zen and Theravada. in my area, there were really only Zen and Tibetan lineages around, and so I completely ruled out even trying the Tibetan sanghas and practiced Zen. somehow, this happened in spite of having been greatly inspired by the Venerable Robina Courtin. at long last, here I am finally giving it these traditions a closer look. thanks for the exposure, Steve.
What a refreshing conversation! You both are so open and honest, it was a pleasure listening to you. By the way, I am doing the Five Wisdom Dakinis online, retreat with The Vajra Path, can't wait! I am also an organic potato, smile. Thank you, Steve this was a great interview!!
Huge thank you for this excellent interview with such fabulous duo - very reassuring for us who want to navigate the complex world of vajrayana and its place in today's world.
I am a student of Dr. Nida Chenagstang, and a long time admirer of Ian Baker, so for the two of them collaborating on the Vajra Path is euphoric for me. Guru Viking I spotted you in one Genlas classes Lorraine MacBeth
The ability you have to allow people to open up and discuss things which they love. Which is shown by length of response. The length and depth of question, is also a bit greater during this talk. Thank you 🙏🏻 🙇♂️
@Guru Viking thanks for your channel, i have been following you for quite a bit, and watch considerable amount of your videos. I am from Bhutan and has lived in 3 continents. I would sincerely request you to interview Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche. I hope it really happens one day. You are a doing a lot by inviting these greats thinkers, scholars and practitioners. It is Kickstarting a process for Vajrayana to become accessible and intelligible for everyone in this contemporary age, those sincere and lost in the complexities of this field at least. Thanks GV.
How is the effectiveness of Vajrayana evaluated? The goal of Vajrayana is to attain Buddahood in this lifetime. That has always been its goal and its promise. So the obvious question to ask here is, have Dr Baker and Dr Nida attained Buddhahood by practicing Vajrayana? It's ok if the answer is no but if we are being honest we have to start asking the tough questions. Does this path actually work in its traditional form? If so, where are the mahasiddhas? If Dr Baker is not a mahasiddha, how is he able to judge what is effective or not? Same for Dr Nida? If they haven't attained Buddhahood, have they attained something? There are stages of the path, so what stages have they attained? They must know where they are and how far is left to go, don't you think? Otherwise how can they teach the path and even further, make adjustments to it? To me these are obvious questions but it seems noone wants to talk about them honestly.
They just have more access and therefore experience, therefore they have natural drive to engage in sharing or teaching, and they do have permission from more experienced or the lineage holders. No body is enlightened, its just a common goal a common path. I see that if someone is opened/honest in vajrayana them two they certainly are. It will be more in the future, stay tuned if you care.
I agree with this observation. I spent some years with and as Vajrayana practitioners, and did not observe fully liberated ones. Some profound experiences to be sure but I can’t claim I was inspired to continue. I wonder if the method became simpler….detached from the Tibetan forms …the method could be more effective.
In Buddhism teachers don't need to be fully accomplished in order to teach. We have the Sutras, Tantras and Teachings that are the authority in these things. If only Mahasiddhas were able to teach and inspire people, you wouldn't have a lot of students. And how many people would be able to take teachings from a Mahasiddha? I think people are overly foucused on practices like tummo, being a Siddha, Buddhahood etc. Big concepts, mostly taken out of context and stylized as if they were some commodity somebody can "own", , wear like a badge or use for personal gain. (I don't suggest that it is what you are saying. I just take your statement as exemplary for a lot of thing you can read nowadays.) You don't have to compete in the Olympics to have positive results from a sporty lifestyle. The same is true for the Dharma. These things were always the accomplishment of a small elite and most practitioners were building karma to once achieve those things: For the benefits of other. Thats the crucial point. What about becoming a more loving human being with a good heart? Being able to deal with all the pain in the world? Benefitting other beings by extending our friendliness to them? Being patient with our own shortcomings and with the shortcomings of others? Facing death, sickness and tradgedy with calm, trust and confidence? These are the sprouts of Dharma that can eventually blossom into all those things mentioned. And that is the standard for evaluation of succesful Dharma practice. You can meet plenty of people that have "attainded" that through their dharma-practices and helped others "attain" it. As Dr. Nida says in the interview. Loving-KIndness is the basis. When Loving-Kindness gave birth to the Buddhas of the past it will for sure give birth to the Buddhas of the future, when practitioners - east and west - are willing to engage with these core principles. The Dharma is young in the West. According to some teachers, not focusing on these essentials was the reason for the downfall of the Dharma in the west. How can we expect it to take foot here, when we are neglecting these things right from the start?
the goal is not buddhahood in 1 lifetime. that only occurs for the sharpest practitioners. for ppl who are mindless followers with small mental faculty you can refer to the display of thukdam that is shown a handful of times each generation, the last being in taipei 2020, which was also the first time it was able to be under full scientific monitoring and measurement. the practitioner entered clinical death and continued their practice for 30 days afterward without any body decomposition, continuously generating heat around the heart area, production of sweet smell from the skin, spontaneous brain signals firing, etcetc. most thukdam lasts a few days, rarely a week or 2, very rare longer than this.
Nida sounds angry about the possibility of Dzogchen without the Tibetan Buddhist entrapments. So much so that I couldn't make sense of what he was trying to say. Wish they would have talked more about their upcoming talk on Eros Ecstasy and Elixirs, that sounds really interesting.
It is the initiation process that became/is exploitative. The translators have worked tirelessly to make the real teachings available and, these are available for free. Masters are still available in Asia for free. True master-disciple relationships do not rely on money.
Can you ask academics in the future why their entire approach isn't against what their purporting to study? "Study" would mean gaining direct experience the way a tradition prescribes it - not meaning to have mental activity about direct experiences one hasn't yet had - right?
Diamond Way Buddhism is a great example of Vajrayana Lay Communities, Hundreds of local Residential Centers and Retreat Centers largely operating on their own but within a network with the same mission. Seems to work well, lots of Stupas being built and the Karmapa is happy with the work. @GuruViking you should go to the Europe Center summer course and get empowerments and visit. Its an amazing space, and power field. Their were 7k there for the Stupa ceremony and empowerments with the Karmapa last year.
Dear Brother viking, in some weeks I'll be flying to Thailand to ordain for yet unknown time in the theravada tradition. I choosen this for now because I've been informed that Mahajana and Vajrayana must be made as a commitment for life if ordained at a monastery... is this true..? or are there ways someone could ordain lets say for some years and dedicate oneself without being stuck with it for life in a monastery setting. I ask because I feel I resonate with Vajrayana and would love to get truly involved... Thankyou, with Love Jaap
With the help of an qualified meditation teacher it is very possible to practice mahayana & vajrajana Buddhism as a lay practitioner. These paths are a little Swifter; especially if you are already drawn to them.
I've heard from people who went to a japanese zen monastery that alltough they have plenty of ceremonies and rituals, if you leave or have to go its really not even a point. If youve accumulated two years in a monastery all of a sudden you will have a ceremony that ordains you as a monk. if you spent a thousand nights total they will without much announcement ordain you a priest. tough training there I heard. Best of luck.
Anyone know which - if any - of Ian Baker's teachers requested that Ian teach? There's nothing about this on his website. What set me looking was his repeated claims here and elsewhere that there is a disconnect between between the teaching of dukkha and the Vajrayana.
@@marioalejandrosandovalcarr4499 for clarity, the issue in question here is being recognized by your teacher as being ready to teach. Merely having the Dalai Lama write a forward to a book and facilitate research on the Secret Temple is not at all the same thing. For a point of comparison, the Dalai Lama himself regards jettisoning karma as to no longer be Buddhist, as per his comments to Stephen Batchelor re. 'Buddhism Without Beliefs' etc. To suggest that the teaching of dukkha is at odds with the Vajrayana looks to me as being no less fundamental a departure from Buddhism in general and specifically from Vajrayana. Recognizing dukkha is pivotal to realizing not-self, as per eg the Anattalakkhana Sutta, and dukkha is no less pivotal to dependent origination, emptiness, the two truths, coemergent wisdom / coemergent ignorance - really it runs from the foundation to the heights of Buddhist views. I'd certainly be interested to see how HH the Dalai Lama or other esteemed teachers - lay or monastic - react to the suggestion dukkha is extraneous to the Vajrayana.
dr nida is on point with everything and its great to hear that he think very balanced which really is best for now, also that everything has to be to adapted and not to fixed and static. Einstein wasnt smart at all, he stole his teachings from his french college and hundreds of other scientists tried to expose him but sure because he has "the choosen" background you will never hear anything negative about him, also not from his racist hate in his diaries, besides that time is not a force only an observation so "his" theory is nonsense anyway.
So many Buddhist teachers these days want to criticise and profit from students. But they should also look with in themselves and ask why such high monetary fees are charged for transmission of their own lineage initiation, translated by others, when they made no effort to care ethically for the student either. In the past their service was provided with no fees directly enriching the master teachers, students lived in monasteries for free, and proper exchanges were worked out. Nowadays there is great hypocrisy and corruption, while the original material actually remains free of charge for genuine students to find and learn from. Genuine master teachers do not offer their services through a business model.
Steve, contrary to what some commenters say down here, you do a great job (as always) here. Needa say that both you and Ian skillfully but subtly balance and tease out the negative undercurrents and passive aggressiveness of the authentic dirty potato, who begins the talk, in various places, throwing sideways daggers so vague and unhelpful that they land more on the side of diffuse gossip than useful commentary, before you get him to say what he seemed to want to say from the get-go, about some white guys who perhaps can see the forest for the trees. For example, he should have given more substance to his comments about psychopaths, Machiavelli and dark triangles (and contrast that with skillful wrathfulness perhaps) and poisonous cocktail makers (vs "authentic" syncretism and maybe how the Tibetan mixology came to be) rather than just letting seep unbalanced energy winds into the virtual air. He comes off a bit more defensive than insightful here (for example, defending the loss of vegetarianism when Buddhism went to the Himalayas, but saying nothing about now, as the teachings have poured out to the diaspora; like to Italy, for example, where there is plenty). But Ian mopped up after him sufficiently,as you did as well with your follow-up questions and addenda. And even with all that being said, in its entirety, a great talk by all three. Thank you.
Now it is good karma for the wisdom as dr. Chenag mentioned, but the traditional approach or adopted versions by first gen of westerners will not do the trick for most interested. How many practitioners in the west? Yeah not many, even it seems there are. What is the reason for that? Teachers didn't hit The note? And, why so many misunderstandings about vajrayana? In the end is it Not a good karma for the wisdom teachings?
Secrecy? What about the fact the Vajrayana of Tibet is also thoroughly active in original form among the Newar householders of Nepal? Why is this fact omitted over and over again? These people still provide Tibetan monks their sacred, ritual objects. They hold the non-monastic tradition, the original tantra that priests could not perform until they removed their robes. Let’s be honest, really, and not leave out the most beneficent information.
This sesion was a blessing to humanity. Most spiritual teachings changed heir students for their own goodness and the society. Spiritualy has been the direct way to convince us of our true nature the self. The digital Era has transform the world into a household. I have no doubt that the benefits can bring healing to humans & nature. When spiritualy teaches love the greatest gift not only the aspirants change but every were they go that energy vibrates. Both the Dr's who shared their work are examples what healing energy can do. Thank you for sharing the ancient secrets how wonderful human beings and spirit are one. Keep up the good work.
recently I've been listening to your interviews with both of these people, and now I've heard them speak together. until listening to these people, I have never had an interested in Vajrayana - I thought, from afar, that it would be too strange and overwrought compared to my similarly cursory glances of Zen and Theravada.
in my area, there were really only Zen and Tibetan lineages around, and so I completely ruled out even trying the Tibetan sanghas and practiced Zen.
somehow, this happened in spite of having been greatly inspired by the Venerable Robina Courtin.
at long last, here I am finally giving it these traditions a closer look. thanks for the exposure, Steve.
What a refreshing conversation! You both are so open and honest, it was a pleasure listening to you. By the way, I am doing the Five Wisdom Dakinis online, retreat with The Vajra Path, can't wait! I am also an organic potato, smile. Thank you, Steve this was a great interview!!
Exclusive super dialogue to purify mindset and benefit to us all 💖🙏🙏🙏
I am potato too 🙏❤️🙏
Sensational - a perfect combination. Thankyou for bringing this to UA-cam
Thank you Dr Nida la and Dr Baker la 🙏🙏🙏
Huge thank you for this excellent interview with such fabulous duo - very reassuring for us who want to navigate the complex world of vajrayana and its place in today's world.
I am a student of Dr. Nida Chenagstang, and a long time admirer of Ian Baker, so for the two of them collaborating on the Vajra Path is euphoric for me.
Guru Viking I spotted you in one Genlas classes Lorraine MacBeth
Guru Viking this was a great dialogue. I'm impressed with your questions!
That was such a good investment of my time, highly appreciated 💎💎💎
Beautiful episode! Thank you Dr. Nida, Dr. Baker and Steve 🙏
The ability you have to allow people to open up and discuss things which they love. Which is shown by length of response. The length and depth of question, is also a bit greater during this talk.
Thank you 🙏🏻 🙇♂️
Roots of vajrayana. Fascinating.
@Guru Viking thanks for your channel, i have been following you for quite a bit, and watch considerable amount of your videos. I am from Bhutan and has lived in 3 continents. I would sincerely request you to interview Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche. I hope it really happens one day. You are a doing a lot by inviting these greats thinkers, scholars and practitioners. It is Kickstarting a process for Vajrayana to become accessible and intelligible for everyone in this contemporary age, those sincere and lost in the complexities of this field at least. Thanks GV.
How is the effectiveness of Vajrayana evaluated?
The goal of Vajrayana is to attain Buddahood in this lifetime. That has always been its goal and its promise. So the obvious question to ask here is, have Dr Baker and Dr Nida attained Buddhahood by practicing Vajrayana?
It's ok if the answer is no but if we are being honest we have to start asking the tough questions. Does this path actually work in its traditional form? If so, where are the mahasiddhas? If Dr Baker is not a mahasiddha, how is he able to judge what is effective or not? Same for Dr Nida? If they haven't attained Buddhahood, have they attained something? There are stages of the path, so what stages have they attained? They must know where they are and how far is left to go, don't you think? Otherwise how can they teach the path and even further, make adjustments to it?
To me these are obvious questions but it seems noone wants to talk about them honestly.
They just have more access and therefore experience, therefore they have natural drive to engage in sharing or teaching, and they do have permission from more experienced or the lineage holders. No body is enlightened, its just a common goal a common path. I see that if someone is opened/honest in vajrayana them two they certainly are. It will be more in the future, stay tuned if you care.
I agree with this observation. I spent some years with and as Vajrayana practitioners, and did not observe fully liberated ones. Some profound experiences to be sure but I can’t claim I was inspired to continue. I wonder if the method became simpler….detached from the Tibetan forms …the method could be more effective.
In Buddhism teachers don't need to be fully accomplished in order to teach. We have the Sutras, Tantras and Teachings that are the authority in these things. If only Mahasiddhas were able to teach and inspire people, you wouldn't have a lot of students. And how many people would be able to take teachings from a Mahasiddha?
I think people are overly foucused on practices like tummo, being a Siddha, Buddhahood etc. Big concepts, mostly taken out of context and stylized as if they were some commodity somebody can "own", , wear like a badge or use for personal gain. (I don't suggest that it is what you are saying. I just take your statement as exemplary for a lot of thing you can read nowadays.)
You don't have to compete in the Olympics to have positive results from a sporty lifestyle. The same is true for the Dharma. These things were always the accomplishment of a small elite and most practitioners were building karma to once achieve those things: For the benefits of other. Thats the crucial point.
What about becoming a more loving human being with a good heart? Being able to deal with all the pain in the world? Benefitting other beings by extending our friendliness to them? Being patient with our own shortcomings and with the shortcomings of others? Facing death, sickness and tradgedy with calm, trust and confidence? These are the sprouts of Dharma that can eventually blossom into all those things mentioned. And that is the standard for evaluation of succesful Dharma practice. You can meet plenty of people that have "attainded" that through their dharma-practices and helped others "attain" it.
As Dr. Nida says in the interview. Loving-KIndness is the basis. When Loving-Kindness gave birth to the Buddhas of the past it will for sure give birth to the Buddhas of the future, when practitioners - east and west - are willing to engage with these core principles. The Dharma is young in the West. According to some teachers, not focusing on these essentials was the reason for the downfall of the Dharma in the west. How can we expect it to take foot here, when we are neglecting these things right from the start?
If they said they were Mahasiddhas would you believe them? How would you know if you aren't a Mahasiddha yourself?
the goal is not buddhahood in 1 lifetime. that only occurs for the sharpest practitioners. for ppl who are mindless followers with small mental faculty you can refer to the display of thukdam that is shown a handful of times each generation, the last being in taipei 2020, which was also the first time it was able to be under full scientific monitoring and measurement. the practitioner entered clinical death and continued their practice for 30 days afterward without any body decomposition, continuously generating heat around the heart area, production of sweet smell from the skin, spontaneous brain signals firing, etcetc. most thukdam lasts a few days, rarely a week or 2, very rare longer than this.
Brilliant !!!! Thanks !
be here now do no harm help others be still close eyes listen to your breathing.
Wonderful conversation, thank you Steve.
very GOOD!!!!!!!!!
Nida sounds angry about the possibility of Dzogchen without the Tibetan Buddhist entrapments. So much so that I couldn't make sense of what he was trying to say. Wish they would have talked more about their upcoming talk on Eros Ecstasy and Elixirs, that sounds really interesting.
It is the initiation process that became/is exploitative. The translators have worked tirelessly to make the real teachings available and, these are available for free. Masters are still available in Asia for free. True master-disciple relationships do not rely on money.
❤❤❤
Jay Matsyandra Nath
Can you ask academics in the future why their entire approach isn't against what their purporting to study? "Study" would mean gaining direct experience the way a tradition prescribes it - not meaning to have mental activity about direct experiences one hasn't yet had - right?
Diamond Way Buddhism is a great example of Vajrayana Lay Communities, Hundreds of local Residential Centers and Retreat Centers largely operating on their own but within a network with the same mission. Seems to work well, lots of Stupas being built and the Karmapa is happy with the work. @GuruViking you should go to the Europe Center summer course and get empowerments and visit. Its an amazing space, and power field. Their were 7k there for the Stupa ceremony and empowerments with the Karmapa last year.
💖
thank you for always beautiful episodes . just wondering, why is Dr Ian always on his phone during most of his interviews?
yaay🎊🎊🎊
Dear Brother viking, in some weeks I'll be flying to Thailand to ordain for yet unknown time in the theravada tradition. I choosen this for now because I've been informed that Mahajana and Vajrayana must be made as a commitment for life if ordained at a monastery... is this true..? or are there ways someone could ordain lets say for some years and dedicate oneself without being stuck with it for life in a monastery setting. I ask because I feel I resonate with Vajrayana and would love to get truly involved...
Thankyou, with Love
Jaap
With the help of an qualified meditation teacher it is very possible to practice mahayana & vajrajana Buddhism as a lay practitioner. These paths are a little Swifter; especially if you are already drawn to them.
@@mvp5096 Thankyou, this was already quite known though.
I've heard from people who went to a japanese zen monastery that alltough they have plenty of ceremonies and rituals, if you leave or have to go its really not even a point. If youve accumulated two years in a monastery all of a sudden you will have a ceremony that ordains you as a monk. if you spent a thousand nights total they will without much announcement ordain you a priest. tough training there I heard. Best of luck.
@@evertjk532 thanks brother
🙏❤️
I just thought, maybe James Bae is interesting also.
What about Fabio Andrico?
When you go to Greece, be sure to participate in the Divine Liturgy at true monasteries. The Mysteries are still Alive.
Anyone know which - if any - of Ian Baker's teachers requested that Ian teach? There's nothing about this on his website. What set me looking was his repeated claims here and elsewhere that there is a disconnect between between the teaching of dukkha and the Vajrayana.
H.H. Dalai Lama I Heard he once mentioned.
@@marioalejandrosandovalcarr4499 for clarity, the issue in question here is being recognized by your teacher as being ready to teach. Merely having the Dalai Lama write a forward to a book and facilitate research on the Secret Temple is not at all the same thing. For a point of comparison, the Dalai Lama himself regards jettisoning karma as to no longer be Buddhist, as per his comments to Stephen Batchelor re. 'Buddhism Without Beliefs' etc. To suggest that the teaching of dukkha is at odds with the Vajrayana looks to me as being no less fundamental a departure from Buddhism in general and specifically from Vajrayana. Recognizing dukkha is pivotal to realizing not-self, as per eg the Anattalakkhana Sutta, and dukkha is no less pivotal to dependent origination, emptiness, the two truths, coemergent wisdom / coemergent ignorance - really it runs from the foundation to the heights of Buddhist views. I'd certainly be interested to see how HH the Dalai Lama or other esteemed teachers - lay or monastic - react to the suggestion dukkha is extraneous to the Vajrayana.
dr nida is on point with everything and its great to hear that he think very balanced which really is best for now, also that everything has to be to adapted and not to fixed and static. Einstein wasnt smart at all, he stole his teachings from his french college and hundreds of other scientists tried to expose him but sure because he has "the choosen" background you will never hear anything negative about him, also not from his racist hate in his diaries, besides that time is not a force only an observation so "his" theory is nonsense anyway.
So many Buddhist teachers these days want to criticise and profit from students. But they should also look with in themselves and ask why such high monetary fees are charged for transmission of their own lineage initiation, translated by others, when they made no effort to care ethically for the student either. In the past their service was provided with no fees directly enriching the master teachers, students lived in monasteries for free, and proper exchanges were worked out. Nowadays there is great hypocrisy and corruption, while the original material actually remains free of charge for genuine students to find and learn from. Genuine master teachers do not offer their services through a business model.
Steve, contrary to what some commenters say down here, you do a great job (as always) here. Needa say that both you and Ian skillfully but subtly balance and tease out the negative undercurrents and passive aggressiveness of the authentic dirty potato, who begins the talk, in various places, throwing sideways daggers so vague and unhelpful that they land more on the side of diffuse gossip than useful commentary, before you get him to say what he seemed to want to say from the get-go, about some white guys who perhaps can see the forest for the trees. For example, he should have given more substance to his comments about psychopaths, Machiavelli and dark triangles (and contrast that with skillful wrathfulness perhaps) and poisonous cocktail makers (vs "authentic" syncretism and maybe how the Tibetan mixology came to be) rather than just letting seep unbalanced energy winds into the virtual air. He comes off a bit more defensive than insightful here (for example, defending the loss of vegetarianism when Buddhism went to the Himalayas, but saying nothing about now, as the teachings have poured out to the diaspora; like to Italy, for example, where there is plenty). But Ian mopped up after him sufficiently,as you did as well with your follow-up questions and addenda. And even with all that being said, in its entirety, a great talk by all three. Thank you.
Now it is good karma for the wisdom as dr. Chenag mentioned, but the traditional approach or adopted versions by first gen of westerners will not do the trick for most interested. How many practitioners in the west? Yeah not many, even it seems there are. What is the reason for that? Teachers didn't hit The note? And, why so many misunderstandings about vajrayana? In the end is it Not a good karma for the wisdom teachings?
Secrecy? What about the fact the Vajrayana of Tibet is also thoroughly active in original form among the Newar householders of Nepal? Why is this fact omitted over and over again? These people still provide Tibetan monks their sacred, ritual objects. They hold the non-monastic tradition, the original tantra that priests could not perform until they removed their robes. Let’s be honest, really, and not leave out the most beneficent information.
I doubt if this type of stuff is very useful at all for achieving enlightenment. Sounds like a lot of ego games to me.
Until you dissolve your perception of self and other into unconditioned awareness everything is an ego game.
@@saulnine7786 Some ego games lead to the end of suffering; others increase suffering.
they really dont understand nor answer the questions very well