To help get rid of the blackout between shots in H-mode shooting you need to enable the High Speed Display option (Red menu, Page 8). This option is only available when NOT shooting in H+ mode and will basically eliminate the blackout, but there's still a stutter to it for things like panning shots. Might want to give it a try though and see if it's something that helps you when shooting in that mode, it's nice to know it's an option
It doesn't truly get rid of blackout because the camera does a "slideshow" effect to cover this up. Turning on High Speed Display basically lets the camera display some motion between images when shooting in H mode, but it doesn't truly eliminate blackout (it looks like ~20fps). Same story on the R6/R6II and R5. R3 is the only one in Canon's lineup that has a stacked sensor and is thus capable of showing 60fps+ motion between shots when shooting with electronic shutter. I know it is a lot to ask for a cheaper tier but this is one reason I still miss the OVF and seeing true motion between the shots I take.
While I do appreciate Canon ultimately being honest when questioned about this issue, I really think they should be more upfront about it in their literature and marketing materials. It's no good to have a camera that can shoot 30 fps if a large percentage of your shots are out of focus. It seems a bit deceptive of Canon not to make consumers aware of this information. Thanks so much Duade, for doing the research and helping all of us budding wildlife photographers to have a clearer picture of our gear and its capabilities. You are simply the best!
Aye I'm with you on this. I understand they want to sell cameras and that 30fps sounds great in the marketing....but I'd rather they just restricted it to 10 or 15fps and we got more reliable AF. I used to shoot with the D500 that's only 10fps and it's fantastic for BIF
@@ajc1482 Still the camera with all the troubles comes off with a higher keeper rate than the 10 fps limited cameras - especially if you switch the viewfinder to OVF simulation where the viewfinder - and by extension the autofocus - has a higher contrast image to work with.
Agreed disclosure up-front would be nice. As a practical matter, I can't see any camera mfg being that forthcoming and potentially confusing in marketing materials, perhaps their technical literature would be the place. ALL cameras have limitations when you push them to their spec limits as we users tend to do :-) If I heard correctly, most of Duade's 30 fps images were properly in focus. Enough bad ones to raise a flag, but not enough to turn him off to the camera. Personally I'd be willing to take the "risk" to use H+ IF it allows me to capture rapid motion of a flighty subject. Especially in good lighting situations.
Your commitment is something do be admired. After so many videos dedicated to the R7, you come back and produce content for all of us that don't have the luxury to change bodies every now and then. Thanks for taking the time and energy to provide us with this information. Cheers
I talked to some specialists from Canon Germany and they actually suggested using the Auto-AF-Case. The other cases are remnants from the DSLRs, with a predictive Autofocus that can cause defocus because the camera predicts the subject at the wrong place (even with subjects that are still). In the Auto-Case the Camera is set in a totally different mode which should perform better. Also I think the problems are caused by the size of the pixels and probably the image processor. While the processor officially is the same as in the higher models, I wouldn't be surprised that its performance is limited somehow compared to an R6 or R5. We also have to consider the physical size of the pixels. Translated to fullframe the R7 has a resolution of over 80MP, which means the pixels are very small even compared to an R5, which has it's own challenges for the autofocus. I personally prefer to have the ability to shoot 30fps if I need it. Even with some shots out of focus, most of the time I got more sharp images in total than I would if I shot with a lower framerate. Appreciate your work 👍
I bought my R7 in December or January. I started using it as my first mirrorless camera, along with a Sigma 150-600mm, which is quite heavy (1st super telephoto lens as well for me). At this time I was on 30fps. So the learning curve was quite steep, and it took me a while to start getting more consistency in my sharp photos. I was overwhelmed with so many images shot and to choose from, and came down to H (15fps). To my amazement I was getting more sharp shots and also a lot less warbling. I could see almost no difference from one photo to the next. Ever since I've been using Electronic in H, and 1st curtain for BiF to remove any warping (have this on set in C1 for easy access). Thank you for the video, it confirms my theory as well and added more insight.
I noticed this same results as well. Like you also went to H because I was overwhelmed by the number of shots I was taking at 30 fps, I purchased my camera in May, so I guess beginner’s luck can be a thing lol.
Thanks for sharing your in field experience which confirms what Canon are saying and is very helpful for those with the camera. Thanks again, Cheers, Duade
Hi! Your comment was very useful to me as I also have the R7 and Sigma 150-600mm. I've gotten fantastic images so far but once in a while, it does loose focus. So frustrating! I shoot in H+ so will take your advice and go down to H and see what happens. Thanks for your advice :)
Kudos to Canon for their honesty. Without you taking the time to send your camera in and to perform your tests following their recommendations people would have the wrong expectations and be set up for disappointment. Thank you.
Kudos? I'd disagree. They shouldn't have marketed the camera with specifications which the cameras actual performance can't match. I'm sure they tested the camera and knew that. They need to change their marketing specs to show the actual performance and issue out a press release stating the problems. Without Duade I might have bought this camera. So kudos is actually to Duade!
@@af2w131f Well, Canon would argue that the AF is not a limitation in good, high contrast light. In lower light with poor contrast, that’s where the issue manifests itself and H+ is a problem.
Thanks mate, yes, I was happy they were upfront about it and give them credit for that. I guess the room for improvement is educating buyers on this limitation. In fairness a lot of this is buried in the manual but can be hard to find for new owners. I guess that is why we are lucky to have UA-cam so we can learn off others. Cheers, Duade
Kudos for what ? The great influencers on vacancion induced the ideea that the r7 has the same autofocus level as bigger cameras from canon, and even bether than the z9. Remember ?
Thanks so much for your persistence in determining the issue with the R7. I've owned 8 previous Canons (all APSC), and have never had a problem with any of them....until the R7. This has been a very frustrating camera. Thankfully, I saw your video suggestions 2 days ago, just in time for a photo session of the Blue Angels Practice Flights today. I adjusted my settings per your suggestions in the video. There were low, dark clouds which compounded the low light situation by not allowing the smoke trails from the jets to dissipate. Now we had clouds and smoky haze with medium blue jets running from 500 - 720 mph. I was nervous just to depend on my R7 so I brought my 80D for some shots as well. I am pleased to say that the majority of my shots with the R7 turned out as well as could be expected under the conditions. I feel a little more pleased and confident using the R7, knowing and understanding its limitations, and how to deal with them. (This still doesn't excuse what I see as an issue with Canon not being forthcoming with the R7 specs so that customers can make a smart purchasing decision). Thanks so much, again!!
Thank you for this information. I too have noticed this problem which is somewhat annoying, particularly when you are shooting a bird you don’t often see. I totally agree, manufacturers should be more open about their products limitations. They could have made it better and charged a little more. As a hobbyists photographer, I don’t have the means to just go out and buy another camera. It was good of you to enquire with Canon and it was refreshing that they were honest with their feedback. Thank you.
At the end of the day all cameras have limitations and quirks that have to be worked around. Canon haven't technically done anything wrong, they said the camera can shoot at 30fps and it can...there's just draw backs from using that speed, to be honest 30fps is over kill anyway. 10-15 is the sweet spot.
Here's my 2 cents and ive talked about this in a few videos about the R7 and any mirrorless camera for AF. IF your subject is not moving (outside your depth of field) then get your focus and get OFF the AF button. If the subject will move out of the DoF then get back on it. This becomes a skill. What is happening is that AF is hunting all the time, and if it decides something else is the point it will move point. And thus the motors of the lens have to adjust. Now you have 2 things going on, the motor for 1 and the sensor readout for 2. Result - focus, focus, out of focus, focus, etc. So end advice from my use, get your focus, get off the button, touch the button again as you need to. A 30 for burst will be fine in that situation. And YES you need good contrast on the R7. I lost a whole session in iffy light as I forgot to raise the exposure to get better contrast and everything came up 'off'.
Thanks mate, great advice and makes a lot of sense, I think it is just a matter of changing habits. Having the R5 as my primary I probably get lazy as I don't seem to have many issues, I can simply hold down the AF button and it just works. But I will try your advice next time I am out with the R7. Cheers, Duade
Is it the same for both mechanical shutter mode and electronic mode? Reason being, I think the 15fps in Mech. mode is enough for my needs, and I can avoid any rolling shutter issues as well.
Thanks Duade for pursuing this. I have the same issue with the R6. The focus point is on the bird’s eye and it is out of focus. I have missed many great wildlife shots and I thought it was me. I only use 12 frames per second with electronic first curtain shutter. I’m constantly saying to my wife how is this out of focus when the red square is clearly on the eye. She uses Sony and suggests I should change!
My R6 is the same. Canon yet again dropping the ball. Ppl shouldnt applaud them for their honesty if they provided products with these faults without telling or fixing.
I agree. The are using features like high shutter speed to promote their products. I fact they are lying, realising and admitting after sales that this is not working. I am truly upset. I know before I would definately opted for another option. What a shame Canon.
Thank you for addressing the R7 issues, Duade. Canon should have clearly communicated the capabilities and limitations of the R7 at launch. Instead of leaving customers with a potentially problematic product, they owe an official apology to R7 users. They should either offer a suitable alternative or release firmware updates that resolve the issues. I, too, have been experiencing these issues for quite some time.
I agree Canon shouldn't have pushed their specifications if the performance doesn't match it. Unfortunately it's a limitation of the read out speed. They can't improve it with firmware due to the slower technology in the camera itself. It's like your personal computers processor speed, it can't be changed with software updates.
IMHO you as a user have a way to do all that already. Switch the EVF to OVF simulation where the image taken from the sensor for the viewfinder feed, which also is used to derive the autofocus, will have higher contrast.
I don't think a firmware update is going to make the readout speed of a sensor used in the 90D any faster. The R7 was a gap filler product to say the least and betrays its namesake. The camera should have been limited to 10FPS and had a rebel tag put on it.
@@msmith2016 It is pretty good at 15fps....in fact it is only low light and low contrast situations where it struggles..... so it does in fact perform at 30fps in good conditions. I have used 30fps many times with 100% hit rate and same with 15fps. Canon actually warns on p.469 of the user manual the various situations where AF will struggle. This is what it says: Shooting Conditions That Make Focusing Difficult Subject with low-contras| such as the blue sky, solid-color flat surfaces or when highlight or shadow details are clipped. Subjects in low light. Stripes and other patterns where there is contrast only in the horizontal direction. Subjects with repetitive patterns (Example: Skyscraper windows, computer keyboards, etc.). Fine lines and subject outlines. Under light sources with constantly changing brightness, colors, or patterns. Night scenes or points of light. The image flickers under fluorescent or LED lighting. Extremely small subjects. Subjects at the edge of the screen. Strongly backlit or reflective subjects (Example: Car with a highly reflective surfaces, etc.). Near and distant subjects covered by an AF point (Example: Animal in a cage, etc.). Subjects that keep moving within the AF point and will not stay still due to camera shake or subject blur. Performing AF when the subject is very far out of focus. Soft focus effect is applied with a soft focus lens. A special effect filter is used. Noise (dots of light, banding, etc.) appears on the screen during AF.
Thank you for your tenacity. Those of us who do not have the weight of your reputation applaud your efforts. Your effort has helped me understand my camera much better. Thank you very much!!!!
Thank you Duade for contacting Canon and sharing their feedback here. Definitely this will help lot of canon r7 owners to know the limitation of the camera and better adapt to it.
Someone had pointed out that most of the people who are complaining about this issue are those who have been using higher end cameras like the R5 and R3 and people, like myself, who upgraded to the R7 don’t seem to notice or mind this issue. I think for its price the R7 is doing exactly what I expected it to.
Thanks for taking the effort in testing to figure out this issue with the R7. Props to Canon for being honest about their response to you. The high frame rate is one of the main things that attracted me to purchasing this camera coming from the 90D, but to be honest, I almost never shoot at that rate. Dealing with that many files can be so daunting so I generally never shoot past the 15, and in some cases even less. The lower contrast seems to be an issue with lenses as well, and I typically use the Sigma 150-600 C on my R7 or the RF 100-400 but even with the inconstancies of these 2 combinations I still get a better keeper rate vs my older 90D as far as photos being sharp. As a hobbyist shooter the issue doesn't really annoy me that much. Someone using the camera for their livelihood I could understand the disappointment. Having picked up the R6MII just after release, I find I have to force myself to use the R7 now although I do take it in my car as a daily when I go to work, but If I am going out for some more serious shooting I will use the R6MII and use the R7 as a back up, the R6mII is just a so much better camera in autofocus and readout speed, Iso performance and dynamic range, but that is expected with the price difference, maybe the lower MP helps with the R6MII, which is the only thing I dislike about the R6MII. I plan on keeping the R7 for now but who knows for how long with more bodies coming out in the near future.
Thanks for sharing your experience Tony and I agree with everything you have said, the R7 is a real paradox, it offers so many wonderful features but has a few issues that prevent it being the camera I had hoped it would be, this is not Canons fault, more my personal expectation of the camera having been a long time 7D user. I agree re the R6II, that is just a fun camera to use. I can only hope Canon do give us a pro APSC next time around with the R7II. Cheers, Duade
Seems that sensor readout speed is the most important characteristics of mirrorless cameras for wildlife photography, as AF and rolling shutter are greatly impacted by it.
If EOS R7 readout speed is constant regardless of scene brightness and frame rate, and if the tracking misfocus occurs only during certain conditions (i.e. low light, low contrast scenes) then the misfocus issue is not related to the readout speed. I suppose that misfocus would be due to some computational issue related to focus tracking, or some other cause. Big thank you to Duade for the deep reviews of camera gear. It’s a big help to the community of bird photographers.
Thank you very much. I had the R5, R7 and now R3. The R7 will be used only during good light since the RF 100-500 produces 800mm reach. $1,500 R7 is still better than 7DMII. R7 MII should be better. R3 for low light is my preferred body for wildlife during the early morning and evening. Just add a 1.4!extender to get to 700mm for the same 100-500mm lens.
So in other words (as we already knew) the R7 is not really a replacement for the 7D mk 2. Canon has simply abandoned the idea of a professional APS-C body. I'm impressed and extremely pleased that you actually got an honest answer from Canon. Keep up the good work! Should manufacturers be honest and open about the limitations of their products, you ask? Well, that would be nice. But can we expect that they'll ever print on the box: This camera does not have as good AF as (blabla)? I don't think so. Should Nikon announce that their P1000 is not comparable in image quality to a system body with a big prime? Or are they allowed to assume that people should be able to figure that out on their own?There are actually people who I know to have bought the P1000 expecting it to be as good as a DSLR or mirrorless. I pointed out that if that were true, every sports and wildlife photographer would be using it, so the fact that they don't, pretty much proves that it isn't as good. But they were still convinced I was wrong, no doubt because they were in love with the camera. So if we buy an R7 expecting the AF to be as good as the R3, R5 or R6ii, I don't think it's Canon's fault because they didn't warn us. We should be smart enough to figure that out on our own. Or at least smart enough to watch some of Duade Paton's videos before making the purchase.
Just a side note… Canon and reviewers at the time of launch of R7 were claiming it had the same ai autofocus system on par with the R3. If that was true then some intentional gimping was done to hurt the R7 as to not compete with the R3. But that’s another conversation. Bottom line… honesty on the part of Canon and other manufacturers is needed.
Thank you for reaching out to Canon & thank you for sharing your experiences & helpful suggestions! It’s nice to know that it wasn’t all just user error! 😊
I already have an R6 Mk II but was considering adding an R7 for the crop sensor benefit. I “hired” one from Test the Kit (a fabulous try before you buy programme in the UK) and used it for a couple of days. I was aware of your concerns before I tried the R7 and applaud Canon for their honesty about the limitations of the camera in the low contrast situations you describe. End result is that I won’t be adding the R7 to my kit! Not just because of the issues you describe - but the crop sensor benefits were not enough of a gain.
Canon obviously trusts you to own up to you like that. We've been trusting you for years. Concise and easily understood, so thank you Duade. You have a lovely way about you.
I would assume Canon continues to reduces performance in various situations. They did that with DSLR, by refusing to use all crosstype af points, and only enabled them with certain lenses.
hi Duade, thank you for taking the time to address the issue and return to it when Canon responded. There is a setting in the camera to turn down the volume of the shutter when you are shooting in standard H mode. I typically shoot in this continuous mode and the shutter is very low. yellow menu/wrench folder #3 volume. you can then see to adjust the shutter volume! hope that helps with using the H mode over H+ and keeping your volume low for birds etc.
Okay so here is my take on what to do. If you have good light you can do as you please the autofocus will work just fine and you will get sharp shots. I like 15 fps with electronic first curtain but use 15 and 30 fps with electronic as well, both work great. On to the low light. As soon as I see that there is not enough light I switch to 15 fps electronic to firstly avoid any shutter shock. Then the settings. So usually I will set my desired shutter speed and aperture and then dial in that ISO. However what works quite well for me is to get the shutter speed as low as possible as well as the aperture and then I would deliberately make my iso a bit higher than usual. Say in low light with the robin you usually shoot at f/6.3, 1/250 s and then iso of say around 1000. I would then deliberately push my iso well above 2000 which will in theory get the contrast up and make the autofucus perform better. I then leave it up to Topaz to sort out the noise. Just something to try maybe, don't be afraid to push the iso up to get the contrast up. This works quite well. Let me know if it works Duade.
There is a setting in the 'red menu' to reduce blackout between frames in H mode that works quite well. I have switched to H mode after finding shutter shock and focus drifting affected my shots. I shoot aviation photography and your videos and thoughts on this camera have been very valuable in helping me learn it's strengths and weaknesses, thank you.
I shoot my R7 mostly in single shot mode, remember that one? I should be OK? I don't have time to filter out hundreds of very similar shots in post processing. All the other new features of the R7 I love. Thank you for explaining Canon's response.
so very true, most of the modern mediocretube sycophants are spray and pray shooters, NOT photographers nor are many of the content "creators" or other shills
@@silbay Wow! To be fair, NO ONE has reflexes fast enough to capture that perfect action shot, when the wings of a bird are in just the right position, the head turned just right; or when those wrestling fox kits both have their mouths open, teeth glistening, faces toward the camera and glint in their eyes! That's why wildlife and bird photographers often shoot in bursts. That's as far from "spray and pray" (shooting constantly, even when the animal is facing away... and I have certainly seen this) as it is from shooting on single shot. That's where 20 or 30 fps come in handy. Even with 10 fps on the 7dii and my old trusty 1d iv that I loved for years, I would often go, "Agh! If only I had the pose between that one and that one!"
@@alansach8437 If you read old photo magazines, you will always have photographers who got lucky shots celebrating their luck, with animals. They never declare skill in getting a great pose. Never.
The issue occurs even at the slower FPS. It reminds me much of the 7d(II) whose AF demonstrated similar focus variability. I suspect it is a combination of issues, slower sensor read out, APS-C (needing more light), smaller apertures (f/7.1), etc.
It occurs on the R6 as well, especially with the RF 100-400 and worse when an extender is added. The RF 800mm has the same problem but because it has a slower focus motor it is less likely to rapidly drop out of focus. There was a lot of flack over the 90D AF tracking before, which seemed like it was designed for a lower shooting speed than 10fps. while neither of these are stellar in that regard, they are more likely to pause focus instead of pulsing or hunting like the R series seems to be doing especially with third-party lenses like the 150-600mm from Sigma and Tamron.
Good work, Paton. Maybe you could suggest Canon to give us a firmware with the option to set the value of FPS in Electronic Mode. Or at least a new fixed option with 8 or 10 fps.
I was a Canon shooter for over 20 years and I recently sold my R7 and all my lenses and just switched to Nikon because of the autofocus issues they had. I am happily shooting with a much cheaper Nikon alternative that works perfectly fine for wildlife. The autofocus is reliable, which is much more than I could say for the R7. I am eagerly awaiting my 180-600mm and expect to by blown away by its performance for the price.
I'm using the R7 and RF 100-500mm, I watched this video and made the recommended settings and the battery life is longer and the photos are much better. Thank you Duade.
Thanks for keeping us updated on this subject Duade! As an R7 Owner i want to add my two cents to this. I did some tracking AF tests with a subject rotating in a circle shooting bursts of over a second. The subject was moving back and forward by at least 20 cm so this test wasn't aimed at the focus shifting on a still target. Tested with the official RF-EF adapter and the Canon EF 24-70 f2.8. I discovered that the higher the framerate the better the camera tracked the subject. The slower the framerate, especially with EFCS, the longer the screen stays dark even though the sensor should be "open" for much longer than with the high framerates. This seems to be true even when using electronic shutter for some reason. By far the best tracking was achieved with 30 fps and electronic shutter. A second thing that i found is related to the exposure simulation. I didn't do any proper testing on this yet so its mainly speculation. It seems like the exposure simulation affects the performance of subject tracking. When manually adjusting the ISO and thus under or overexposing the image in the preview, the subject tracking seems to be affected. I assumed that the processor of the camera would adjust the exposure while the sensor would capture the best image possible (for the preview, not the actual photo) so the AF has the best preview to work with. With exposure simulation disabled the tracking seems to be better since the exposure for the final image doesn't effect the preview exposure and AF. Again, this is mainly speculation from me since i didn't to any proper testing yet.
Thank you for doing the work to get this clarified by Canon. I have been saying in the comments on this and other fora that the issue was data throughput of the focus configuration that offers such high shutter speeds and rates, and that data bus was an issue with the R7 specifically, but basically was a voice in the wilderness. Canon marketing have a bit of a history of pushing features that cannot be supported - overheating of the R5 when used as the video camera in the much-touted high resolution modes they really featured, for example. That created an expectation that could not be supported for some time, until several firmware updates, but by then the damage was done. In the case of the R7, attention fell on the Sigma 150-600c as the culprit, but with the R5, R6 and R6II units I shoot with, that was never an issues, and Sigma went to the trouble of putting out a video claiming that there was no issue with their lenses and the Canon R-series MILC bodies when shooting birds on the wing - although I noticed that they demonstrated their assertions with the R6 body and not the R7. That was in the context of a lot context of perceived issues with 3rd party legacy lenses. It was not so much the lens, as the focusing system for that configuration, and what was expected of it - poor marketing and communications Canon. The sensor readout speed for the density of the 33MP APS-C sensor, at high electronic shutter and burst speeds needs a BSI/Stacked sensor. It is no coincidence that the R3 camera used for sports, which demands a high shutter speed and fast tracking, has a more modest sensor size of FF 24MP and DOES have a BSI/stacked sensor, decent data buffer along with high speed CF-Express card capability to support high shutter burst speeds. In the R7 the focus, shutter, processor, and buffer data transfer are not up to the advertised H+ speed they promoted. Basically the system bus system is out of balance. It develops a backlog of data that cannot be processed in time to allow all of the other components to work effectively. I actually shoot in mechanical most of the time, but the mechanical shutter in the R7 sounds like a tinker's cart. I looked at the R7 when it came out, came to the conclusion that it was built to a price and found that disappointing as I truly, truly wanted a flagship APS-C MILC that was a valid successor to the 7DII. I will re-evaluate my decision to avoid the R7 when a MkII version comes out if that has the elements that are missing. On the other hand, if the R5MkII comes out as suggested with a BSI/stacked 60MP sensor, I will likely go in that direction and simply use either 1.3 or 1.6 crop modes when necessary, as I do now.
Thanks for taking the time to comment Trevor and yes, the readout speed in these mirrorless bodies does seem to be the heart of the system. I noticed the AF difference to the R5/R6II almost immediately but was confused as I thought the R7 had the same AF system so always suspected my camera was at fault. But over time I suspect your explanation is logical. I imagine Canon themselves would have data on the number of returns or complaints re the R7 AF and will hopefully make necessary improvements in future models. Cheers, Duade
Been o/seas in South Africa with my R7 and RF 100-400mm (the bigger lens was too heavy to pack) and have really loved this setup. Been shooting electronic shutter only at H (not H+). It's working incredibly well in decent light. In poor light it does struggle more to properly focus. I get best results just leaving it on wide-area auto focus with animal subject detect enabled all the time. I use one of the back-buttons to (occasionally) select an individual point if the camera is lost. In poorer light I get exactly the issue you've experienced... seems to pick a random thing instead of the eye.
I remember them pushing the false idea that the focus system was derived from the R3. I agree it's most likely the capability of the sensor that cause the af to lose focus between shots. And I think experience of many has shown the limitation of these crop sensors, they have always been noisy and poor performers in low light. In great light they perform quite well. For the price, it's still a very good value.
Some very useful information in your video. I have another brand of camera and sometimes the focus point indication is on the subject but the actual focus is somewhere else. You explanation could apply to my camera as well. Thank you for all the work that goes into your videos they are all excellent, informative and honest. Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge.
My XH2 can fire at high frame rates, but subjects moving towards the camera are usually out of focus using say eye tracking of my dog. When I use standard point and I keep the spot on the dogs face it works much better. I think the additional calculations of using eye tracking in certain circumstances overwhelms the camera. Read out speed of the sensor seems to be a more important spec than I first realized too.
I've experienced this not just at 30fps but at 15fps in Elec 1st curtain mode. While it's great that Canon admits that the camera specs outperform the camera hardware. While the sensor likely has something to do with it I would suspect the processor as well. If their buffer barfs when you overload it the processor likely does as well. I don't care that it's called the same thing as the one in the R3 and R5, it has to be a lesser chip.
Yes, it has to be cheap. Imagine earlier they used to use DIGIC X image processor in 1dx mk iii and now every mirrorless camera has the same processor. It’s stupidity. It’s funny to believe these r3 and r100 have the same processor
@@shibampal6940 exactly. So why are they using the same name and actually lying? Maybe it is the readout speed, maybe it is that the processor is not on the same speed. Overall it is nice to have the option to use more frames, but if the processor can handle up to say 10 fps, when a subject is moving, then it should be said, because people who buy it, buy it for these kind of situations. So if it can't handle 30 fps on STATIC subject, even if it sounds good on paper and makes people buy it, which is why they are doing it, is not OK. It is like car acceleration 0-60 in 4 seconds, but when it has the biggest engine, but your gets it in 10 seconds and they have named the engine the same.
My previous camera the A7R IV had this problem, the focus jumps were not as severe they were jumping to the tail or legs. Part of the reason was the lack of bird eye AF but it happened much more in overcast conditions which means it was a contrast problem. I'm now using the Sony A1 and it's confidence inspiring to go through my images and see no strange autofocus shifts.
Thanks Duade. The R7 is my first mirrorless camera and my first with tracking etc. I thought that that the odd soft shot I was getting on high speed continuous was down to me. But now having looked back over my photos, I am pretty sure I’ve been experiencing the same issues you have described in low light/low contrast scenarios. I am still learning about what this camera can do (previous camera was a 7D2), so the advice you give on settings is invaluable. Thank you so much.
Seen the same happening with perfectly still subjects, using the RF 100-500 mm which has worked great on the R6, very frustrating. The focus is locked on the eye and still only 1/5 images are sharp (H+ continuous shooting). However, I was using IS mode 1 (“still mode”) and now that I have tested mode 3 (“erratic mode” but only active during exposure) the hit rate seems to improve significantly. So, I’m inclined to believe it is the IS+IBIS throwing AF off (micro shift) and the R7 can’t process as much as the R6. Though framing without active IS during AF can be a challenge too. Thanks for all your videos, very informative.
Great that Canon were able to be upfront and honest about the limitations. I think it is helpful for them all to be like that upfront. It can be part of the purchasing decision or ready us for what we then work with - new or used. Most of us want the best of our gear and knowing the limitations really helps that. Thanks for sharing Duade - reckon it'll be helpful for a number of people with this body.
Thank you for this video! I think it cannot be expected from the manufacturer to tell you all the limitations upfront, after all they want you to buy their camera, and the R7 does perform well in good light, it seems. I was lucky enough to be able to give the R7 a try as an upgrade for my 90d, and finally decided to go with Fuji instead. One of the reasons was the slow focusing of my Sigma 150-600 C lens in the shop environment (hard work due to the poor light). But that was only one of many reasons, to be fair. For its price, the R7 is a great camera, and thumbs up to Canon for their honest answer, I’m impressed.👍
Thank you so much for all of your videos concerning this camera. I bought it on Thursday and was able to do some bird photography on Sunday. I shot still birds, flying birds, bird in contrast, those in low light, etc...Needless to say I was pretty upset with the results. I would say 99% of my photos were out of critical focus on the eyes of birds. I even have the "show focus points" plugin you mentioned and the box is right on the eye but when I zoom in 200% it's fuzzy. That was on a still subject in high contrast. I was handheld ISO 200 with shutter of 1/800 with a canon 100-400mm ii lens and canon ef-r adapter. I was so hopeful for this to finally replace my old 7Dii. But I compared the pictures I took today of a still flamingo to those I took 2 months ago of a black skimmer at 200% magnification and the 7Dii beats the R7 outright, it's not even a fair fight. I have no clue why all of my shots are not critically sharp and I don't want to jump through Canon hoops and settings to maybe have a 50% success rate. I have a better keeper rate with the 7D. I just googled why this was happening and came across your videos. Thanks so much for being honest, I think Canon dropped the ball on this one and I will be returning this purchase.
I still have my 7Dmk2 works fine, also have a 100-400mm II and a couple of amazing Canon EF L tele-primes and some old 1d series cams. I initially got excited when first announced did a pre order waited almost 2 months then cancelled it. I might have been better off getting the R5 but in the UK we were talking £4299 I thought no way paying that for a non stacked or non BSI sensor cam ....it's too old school. I'm about to order the Nikon Z8 and a 180-600mm. Canon are too slow with sensor dev and rely on paper big number specs and heavy sales marketing. I like Duade reviews he doesn't get frequent visits from Canon money truck like some.
The most important thing for a camera is to deliver sharp pictures. I think it is really strange that if you use the R7 at full shooting framerates you are not garuanteed to have that many sharp shots. I was really hoping the R7 was a replacement for my 7Dii. Guess I’ll have to wait a little longer. Maybe Canon will surprise us with an R4? :-) Thanx for the video. Keep m coming!
Thanks Duade, I believe these high burst speeds work well (AF and Blackout) with stacked sensors and less with other sensors. I have no problem with the OM-1 and the old Sony RX10M4, both equipped with stacked sensors.
Hi Duade. Thanks for the video, much appreciated. It's good that Canon came back with an honest explanation and at least we can now get on with using our R7's without wondering if there is something wrong with our particular example. I've read many of the comments already posted and not sure I can add anything particularly new. Although I must say the comment someone made about marketing people versus engineering people within Canon certainly seems more than probable. We still need to remember that it is only a few years ago that we could not even dream of the autofocus performance of the R7 (and quite a few other mirrorless cameras), never mind the R3's and Z8/9's of this world. I've had some fantastic results from my R7 and I'm sure many more to come - although I'm also sure I'll be looking carefully at the R7 Mk2 as and when it makes and appearance :) . Thanks again John
Thanks John, totally agree and we are quick to forget about DSLR AF, the R7 is a pretty big jump from the 7D and for its price offers wonderful features. I am being a bit critical and on reflection I still get many wonderful shots as you do. Cheers ,Duade
Thank you very much for doing such a detailed follow-up video on this issue and for suggesting a workaround. I'm deeply disappointed in Canon for not being upfront about this whole thing in the first place. At the launch of the R7, it was reported that it had a similar autofocus or shared similar AF characteristics with R3 (I dont remember the exact wording). Nowhere was it mentioned that the AF was inferior to the R5/R3 or that you would have to shoot at 6,5 fps/8 fps in lower light/contrast situations.😠 is it a case of marketing hype or of a company misleading the customers? 😠 I just wish Canon had been more upfront about the whole thing, because that would have influenced significantly my decision, just like Canon refusal to have third-party lenses manufacturers offer AF capable RF mount lenses (that was clear to me at the time). Again, I very much appreciate your dedication to helping R7 users understand the limitations of their camera, and I'm now a subscriber (don't know why I wasn't already one). Cheers
As an additional comment, we should all keep in mind is for everything else except fast moving low light extreme bird photography, the EOS R7 holds its own. I was thinking that for use on an African safari where you take photos of large animals and landscapes and people, the cameras performance should be excellent. The crop factor advantage is huge if the light is right. Using a Canon 100-500mm lens and with the R7 crop factor, at 360mm you have a 576mm equivalent at f5.6. At 151mm, you have a 242mm equivalent at 4.5. Of course, at 500mm you have an 800mm equivalent at 7.1. Finally, I have found that when the R7 is combined with the 100-500 lens, using Fv mode is the way to go; the two wheels available on the camera combined with the programable ring on the lens work as the optimal system. For me. :)
Thanks Edward, yes, I agree, for its price it offers incredible performance really. In nice light it excels and the reach is fantastic. I think the reason I am a little critical is I love the R7 100-500 combo, I just wish the R7 performed like the R6II in low light etc. Cheers, Duade
Thanks once again Duade, that was excellent! I also returned my R7 to the Canon lab and they also said there was nothing wrong with it. I’ll persevere with the settings you suggest and see if I experience an improvement. I don’t remember any firmware updates coming out for the R7 but I wonder if improvements could be made. It would be nice to think canon were trying to improve it but I’ll not hold my breath! Great work Duade, thank again. Best, Julian.
Thank you Duade for investigating this in a very kindly and diplomatic way. It confirms my conclusions. In the days after the purchase of the R7 I discovered to my great surprise the many limitations of this camera. It is a poor flagship of Canon’s APS-C R system. The R7 is not a worthy successor of the 7D mk II. I had readily paid more to have a more refined camera. So I concluded that Canon isn’t serious about APS-C. For me portability is very important as I do fauna and flora photo inventories on day long walks in all kinds of terrain (hilly, sandy, swampy,...) often under a burning sun. Or on bicycle tours. Canon will never release long telephoto zooms for APS-C. And to make matters worse decided not to allow third party lenses. Canon is nudging bird photographers towards full frame cameras (R5, R6) and big heavy lenses, while the 1,6x crop factor is lost with them. For my bird photography I consider 800mm to be the absolute minimum reach on a telephoto zoom; 1200mm is even better. And still cropping in post is mostly applied. So I had to look elsewhere for more compact and lighter weight gear. That’s why, three weeks ago, I bought an OM-5 and Olympus 100-400mm which I am testing now. So far I am very pleased with the performance of the AF for birds in flight and with the sensor noise of this little camera. The shutter is pleasantly silent. I can add an OM-1 or Panasonic G9 II later if necessary. I have Canon cameras and lenses since 2008 (amongst others : 6D, 7D mk II, 80D, EF 100-400mm L I and II, extender 1,4x III). I use the R7 now for macro photography with my EF-S lenses and RF 35mm f1.8 macro (my only one ever RF lens). The R7 is indeed a good enough general camera and in the end I am happy with it. I also use the iPhone 13 Pro, but not for macro and close-up. The synthesized close-up images often look like watercolor paintings and have an horrible bokeh. My pictures can be found here : observation.org/users/112911/photos
I honestly hope I get treated the same as any other Canon owner, but if they do somehow know about the channel, I am happy if that helps get answers for my viewers. Cheers, Duade
Thanks for this video. Very helpful. The loudness of the shutter on the R7 makes it practically unusable in most wildlife situations. Very annoying. When I grab it after using my R5 with EFC I am always shocked by how loud it it. I wish Canon would allow an even slower frame rate with electronic shutter, say 10 fps. Or even better, it would be great if you could just specify the frame rate you want. Again, terrific video.
Excellent video, Duade. Thank you very much for going to the trouble and getting the answers. Your prescription for minimizing the issue sounds very similar to what a friend does with his R7. (To this point, I've tended to take about 3 times the number of shots of each subject because I assumed 2/3 of the images would be bad from the R7.)
This is such a great piece of information! Thank you, Duade! I have been following your R7 investigation as I have been considering buying one. Recently, I saw it was on sale at USD $1099 at Canon USA web site as a refurbished unit. It was a great price, but I did not buy one as I wanted to have an excellent AF for my next camera. I am currently using 80D DSR and wanted to upgrade it, but you know, cameras in these days are so expensive and I thought R7 could be a great option. Thank you again, Duade!!
5:53 So, those numbers between the R7 and the R5 are almost exactly 30 and 60fps. (16.67 and 33.3ms respectively). That 2ms difference for the R7 doesn't allow for much compute time, so yeah... Makes sense to me to limit to 15FPS with AF to give much more compute time after the sensor is read and processed.
Wow Duane, I'm so impressed on your follow-through with this! I'm grateful to hear this too because I returned my R7 within 10 days of purchase for the same reasons that you reported. Having your validation is good because I now know I wasn't crazy! Would I buy it again? I don't think so. I do like that Canon gave you an honest answer though. I've been using the Fuji xh2s and super happy since.Thanks again.
I think camera companies should tell you about things they know you need to know. There can be so many overall that it is almost unreasonable to expect them to go into great detail. You can expect some limitations with the less expensive gear. They could state that said camera is not the best choice for low light situations where you need high frame rates, as an example, and leave it at that. I think that is reasonable disclosure. It is a plus that Canon got back to you on this issue; a plus with trusting Canon. Thanks, Duade.
Thanks Jim, yes, I guess we as customers need to take some accountability in research etc and it is difficult to list everything. I guess we are lucky to have UA-cam these days. Cheers, Duade
Duade you are a real champion for Canon users here. You have proved a limitation that in a sense mirrors the old adage that you get what you pay for perhaps. Canon have admitted this in their comparison to the higher-spec sensors of the R3 and R5. The limitation of the sensor in lower light and on high burst rates perhaps should not be your personal disappointment but rather a case of over-hyped marketing. Still an awesome camera given the specs verses price but great to know and understand this limitation. Cheers mate!
Thanks for your vid. The settings suggested by Canongs are pretty much what I arrived at after a few weeks of using the camera. I was a disappointed initially as we were told the AF system was pretty much the same as that found in the R3. The manufacturers should certainly be more open about the limitations of their products.
That's some good information Mr. Paton. I sincerely appreciate the time and effort you have put into this issue. I mainly shoot birds in flights, so an apsc isn't a good choice. I did not figure that out until I got a full frame camera as I am now much quicker on the birds with my new 500mm lens. Thanks a bunch.
Good video, Duade. I got my R7 a year ago to replace my beloved 7D MKII which I have used for sports and wildlife photography. I like a lot of things about the R7, I already owned the R but wanted the crop sensor mirrorless as I am transitioning to RF mount lenses. But as much as I like the R7 I feel it was pushed out a bit before it was really ready. The focus issue you discuss is one reason, I have noticed it on occasion with my camera as well and also shutter bounce. Another thing is the lack of a vertical battery grip. A lot of my shots, typically with longer lenses are verticals and my wrist gets so tired with the R7 not having the comfort of the buttons on a battery grip. I also like the balance better with long lenses and while one can easily swap out a dead battery I just prefer having 2 in the grip. I have a feeling in the 2024 we might see an R7 MkII which will have a much improved focusing system as well as less rolling shutter and finally a dedicated vertical battery grip. Just my 2 cents!
Thanks for diving deep into the issue. Yes, I think manufacturers should be a bit more open about such issues. I also think the R7 shouldn't be considered as the succesor to the 7D2...it never was, apparently. With fast moving subjects, like a jet figher during a fly by on an air show, even R6 Mark II just barely could keep up so R3 is the only solution for now. Everything else mirrorless from Canon is not fast enough, for now.
Thanks, yes, I agree, the R7 is really a 90D blend, not a pro APSC that we hoped for. I'm sure things will improve over time, we just need to be aware of the limitations for now. Cheers, Duade
Great explanation. It’s clear Canon falsely advertised the capability of the camera. How many bought the camera based on the frame rate? Now for canon to say it can not do 30 frames. Yes Canon should have limited the frame rate to 15 to improve the image quality and customer satisfaction.
Thanks for sharing this very valuable information, Duade! There are a lot of reasons that cause soft pictures. Knowing the imitations of the camera is very very important so that we don't waste time trying to change the wrong things and cause even more problems.
Thank you for this Duade... You have just made me feel so much better that I have made the right decision and sold all my Canon gear (40 years a Canon user) and bought into Olympus OM-1 and lenses. And I do not regret the move as the Olympus is reliable and does what it says on the box ! There should be no excuse for Canon... I have had these let downs in the past where there is an issue...and the issue is resolved in the next version of the model...! This is highly annoying to say the least... the true capabilities of a camera should be fully available to everyone straight off...where I am sure people could make their own mind up about what is acceptable to them. It's not good to market a camera saying it can shoot at such and such a speed then 6 months down the line admit its cannot do what it was purported to do....Very naughty Canon.... Many thanks for your excellent channel always a pleasure to watch....
Hi Duade, went through much the same experience as you with the R7. Not sure if it was luck, experience, or a little of both, but I switched to H mode a while back as a test because I found most of my focus issues were in poor contrast environments. Great that you spoke to Canon and helped validate this suspicion, and great work again mate. Garry.
Hi Duade, It's really helpful to me. Once I dialed down from H++ to H, my keeper rate increase noticeably. I am shooting Tamron 100-400mm on R7 and really struggling, especially during low light conditions. Thumbs up, mate!
I think they should have divulged these limitations since its clear from their response they already have benchmarks to show the R7 autofocus speed is slower than the higher models or at least they could have made it a selling point for the higher models. I for one would have just saved up for a R6 mark ii instead or would have gone to a different brand. There's nothing more frustrating than getting a new camera and couldn't get it to work consistently at its 'promised' performance only to find out it was never intended for those conditions at all. Those misleading specs are reserved for cheap, knock-off, startup brands. Not from a premier, popular brand like Canon. Thank you very much for taking the time to make this video. This, just like many of your videos has always been very helpful to me. Great work! 😊
Thanks for this video. I'm upgrading from my 7D mk2 to the R7. All your videos are excellent and very helpful and honest. Keep up the good work and all the best to you. Dave
The R7 will give you more good images at 30 frames per second than bad. So, discard the bad ones, if you do get some, and use the many good ones that you get. No camera, regardless of cost, will give you a perfectly focused image every single frame.
Great video Duade, I've got the R3 and R7 and I can totally agree with what you've said. I was having these issues like many other people but didn't realise about the switching from H+ to H which will enable the camera to cope much better. It seems common sense as like you've said it's price range is a factor in the capabilities between the two. Great video as always and very well explained. All the best Rich👍
Thanks for the update. This is what I was expecting.. it's a much cheaper body than the R5, and whilst shooting from a hide with a friend who has the R7 we also noticed that the hit rate on the R5 was much higher.. I would be interested to see how the budget R8 performs.
Thanks duade for another great video. I too had the same problems. Thought it was me but never had the same issues with the R6 so I guessed I had a faulty camera. Sent it back to canon for testing and got the response that there was nothing wrong with the camera. Ended up selling it along with my R6 and bought the R5. Glad I did, I do miss the extra reach but the R5 is so much better.
Thanks for this video Duade. This difference in performance of the R7 depending on having more or less light is something I really notice a lot. In low light I always try to shoot in electronic first curtain, but with good lighting, I'm enjoying shooting in electronic mode. Last month I had the opportunity to photograph Mountain Gorillas in Africa and the electronic mode was perfect for not disturbing the animals. I was even surprised, because I imagined that because they were black, the R7's autofocus could suffer due to the lack of contrast, but the eye-tracking worked perfectly and I couldn't believe the amount of photos with perfect focus I had. Even with these limitations, my success rate with the R7 is much higher than with the 7d mark II (I think because I've never used an R5 or R6 and my maximum standard is the R7, I'm extremely happy with the results I'm having) .
Great to hear mate, you make very good points, if we look at our keepers the R7 still delivers on that front and in comparison to the 7D it is much better so in that regard it is a success. Congrats on the gorillas. Cheers, Duade
I ignored your comments at first. Just a rabid Kiwi off his leash! But I realized I was having the same issue in this situation: using the 100-500 and 800mm f8, in forest, overcast, early morning with low light. Tks for presenting a solution. When the R7 came out the smaller size, lack of the R6 feel, lack of the R6 control wheels had me wishing for a higher priced higher featured model. I think the R7 does exactly what the market needed (APS-C, great price, two card slots, full sized battery, very high res sensor) but not enough camera for me. I was and still am hoping for a pro-grade crop sensor R7 Mark II. In the mean time will enjoy the fellow birds who envy my great shots.
To help get rid of the blackout between shots in H-mode shooting you need to enable the High Speed Display option (Red menu, Page 8). This option is only available when NOT shooting in H+ mode and will basically eliminate the blackout, but there's still a stutter to it for things like panning shots. Might want to give it a try though and see if it's something that helps you when shooting in that mode, it's nice to know it's an option
Thanks, that is very helpful, I wonder why it is not standard. Cheers, Duade
It doesn't truly get rid of blackout because the camera does a "slideshow" effect to cover this up. Turning on High Speed Display basically lets the camera display some motion between images when shooting in H mode, but it doesn't truly eliminate blackout (it looks like ~20fps). Same story on the R6/R6II and R5. R3 is the only one in Canon's lineup that has a stacked sensor and is thus capable of showing 60fps+ motion between shots when shooting with electronic shutter.
I know it is a lot to ask for a cheaper tier but this is one reason I still miss the OVF and seeing true motion between the shots I take.
@@fylphotography9269so you're saying my R3 has spoiled me, and I'll get annoyed if I move to other RF cameras for fast action. That's disappointing.
While I do appreciate Canon ultimately being honest when questioned about this issue, I really think they should be more upfront about it in their literature and marketing materials. It's no good to have a camera that can shoot 30 fps if a large percentage of your shots are out of focus. It seems a bit deceptive of Canon not to make consumers aware of this information. Thanks so much Duade, for doing the research and helping all of us budding wildlife photographers to have a clearer picture of our gear and its capabilities. You are simply the best!
Aye I'm with you on this. I understand they want to sell cameras and that 30fps sounds great in the marketing....but I'd rather they just restricted it to 10 or 15fps and we got more reliable AF.
I used to shoot with the D500 that's only 10fps and it's fantastic for BIF
I definetely agree but every brand has done / does it
Exactly, no point in doing such a marketing
@@ajc1482 Still the camera with all the troubles comes off with a higher keeper rate than the 10 fps limited cameras - especially if you switch the viewfinder to OVF simulation where the viewfinder - and by extension the autofocus - has a higher contrast image to work with.
Agreed disclosure up-front would be nice. As a practical matter, I can't see any camera mfg being that forthcoming and potentially confusing in marketing materials, perhaps their technical literature would be the place. ALL cameras have limitations when you push them to their spec limits as we users tend to do :-)
If I heard correctly, most of Duade's 30 fps images were properly in focus. Enough bad ones to raise a flag, but not enough to turn him off to the camera. Personally I'd be willing to take the "risk" to use H+ IF it allows me to capture rapid motion of a flighty subject. Especially in good lighting situations.
Your commitment is something do be admired. After so many videos dedicated to the R7, you come back and produce content for all of us that don't have the luxury to change bodies every now and then. Thanks for taking the time and energy to provide us with this information. Cheers
Thanks, it is my pleasure and I am happy to help, have fun with your camera. Cheers, Duade
@@Duade Thanks Duade. Pity Canon is so misleading and wicked in their sales effort.
Watching this video should be mandatory for anyone purchasing a mirrorless camera. Well done Duade.
I talked to some specialists from Canon Germany and they actually suggested using the Auto-AF-Case. The other cases are remnants from the DSLRs, with a predictive Autofocus that can cause defocus because the camera predicts the subject at the wrong place (even with subjects that are still).
In the Auto-Case the Camera is set in a totally different mode which should perform better.
Also I think the problems are caused by the size of the pixels and probably the image processor. While the processor officially is the same as in the higher models, I wouldn't be surprised that its performance is limited somehow compared to an R6 or R5. We also have to consider the physical size of the pixels. Translated to fullframe the R7 has a resolution of over 80MP, which means the pixels are very small even compared to an R5, which has it's own challenges for the autofocus.
I personally prefer to have the ability to shoot 30fps if I need it. Even with some shots out of focus, most of the time I got more sharp images in total than I would if I shot with a lower framerate.
Appreciate your work 👍
What do you mean by "auto case"?
I bought my R7 in December or January. I started using it as my first mirrorless camera, along with a Sigma 150-600mm, which is quite heavy (1st super telephoto lens as well for me). At this time I was on 30fps. So the learning curve was quite steep, and it took me a while to start getting more consistency in my sharp photos.
I was overwhelmed with so many images shot and to choose from, and came down to H (15fps). To my amazement I was getting more sharp shots and also a lot less warbling. I could see almost no difference from one photo to the next. Ever since I've been using Electronic in H, and 1st curtain for BiF to remove any warping (have this on set in C1 for easy access).
Thank you for the video, it confirms my theory as well and added more insight.
I noticed this same results as well. Like you also went to H because I was overwhelmed by the number of shots I was taking at 30 fps, I purchased my camera in May, so I guess beginner’s luck can be a thing lol.
Thanks for sharing your in field experience which confirms what Canon are saying and is very helpful for those with the camera. Thanks again, Cheers, Duade
Hi! Your comment was very useful to me as I also have the R7 and Sigma 150-600mm. I've gotten fantastic images so far but once in a while, it does loose focus. So frustrating! I shoot in H+ so will take your advice and go down to H and see what happens. Thanks for your advice :)
@@clairehachey2189 thank you! I really hope it helps!
Kudos to Canon for their honesty. Without you taking the time to send your camera in and to perform your tests following their recommendations people would have the wrong expectations and be set up for disappointment. Thank you.
Kudos? I'd disagree. They shouldn't have marketed the camera with specifications which the cameras actual performance can't match. I'm sure they tested the camera and knew that. They need to change their marketing specs to show the actual performance and issue out a press release stating the problems. Without Duade I might have bought this camera. So kudos is actually to Duade!
@@af2w131f Well, Canon would argue that the AF is not a limitation in good, high contrast light. In lower light with poor contrast, that’s where the issue manifests itself and H+ is a problem.
Thanks mate, yes, I was happy they were upfront about it and give them credit for that. I guess the room for improvement is educating buyers on this limitation. In fairness a lot of this is buried in the manual but can be hard to find for new owners. I guess that is why we are lucky to have UA-cam so we can learn off others. Cheers, Duade
Kudos for what ? The great influencers on vacancion induced the ideea that the r7 has the same autofocus level as bigger cameras from canon, and even bether than the z9. Remember ?
Thanks so much for your persistence in determining the issue with the R7. I've owned 8 previous Canons (all APSC), and have never had a problem with any of them....until the R7. This has been a very frustrating camera. Thankfully, I saw your video suggestions 2 days ago, just in time for a photo session of the Blue Angels Practice Flights today. I adjusted my settings per your suggestions in the video. There were low, dark clouds which compounded the low light situation by not allowing the smoke trails from the jets to dissipate. Now we had clouds and smoky haze with medium blue jets running from 500 - 720 mph. I was nervous just to depend on my R7 so I brought my 80D for some shots as well. I am pleased to say that the majority of my shots with the R7 turned out as well as could be expected under the conditions. I feel a little more pleased and confident using the R7, knowing and understanding its limitations, and how to deal with them. (This still doesn't excuse what I see as an issue with Canon not being forthcoming with the R7 specs so that customers can make a smart purchasing decision). Thanks so much, again!!
Thank you for this information. I too have noticed this problem which is somewhat annoying, particularly when you are shooting a bird you don’t often see. I totally agree, manufacturers should be more open about their products limitations. They could have made it better and charged a little more. As a hobbyists photographer, I don’t have the means to just go out and buy another camera. It was good of you to enquire with Canon and it was refreshing that they were honest with their feedback. Thank you.
I fully agree with you...
At the end of the day all cameras have limitations and quirks that have to be worked around.
Canon haven't technically done anything wrong, they said the camera can shoot at 30fps and it can...there's just draw backs from using that speed, to be honest 30fps is over kill anyway. 10-15 is the sweet spot.
Thanks for your comment, I guess we are lucky to have forums and UA-cam etc to help us find out these things. Cheers, Duade
Here's my 2 cents and ive talked about this in a few videos about the R7 and any mirrorless camera for AF. IF your subject is not moving (outside your depth of field) then get your focus and get OFF the AF button. If the subject will move out of the DoF then get back on it. This becomes a skill.
What is happening is that AF is hunting all the time, and if it decides something else is the point it will move point. And thus the motors of the lens have to adjust. Now you have 2 things going on, the motor for 1 and the sensor readout for 2. Result - focus, focus, out of focus, focus, etc.
So end advice from my use, get your focus, get off the button, touch the button again as you need to. A 30 for burst will be fine in that situation.
And YES you need good contrast on the R7. I lost a whole session in iffy light as I forgot to raise the exposure to get better contrast and everything came up 'off'.
That’s exactly what I do with the r10. Works like a charm.
Thanks mate, great advice and makes a lot of sense, I think it is just a matter of changing habits. Having the R5 as my primary I probably get lazy as I don't seem to have many issues, I can simply hold down the AF button and it just works. But I will try your advice next time I am out with the R7. Cheers, Duade
yeah its double the sensor speed. If I go from Z9 to R7 I really see the speed and algorithms more at work@@Duade
Is it the same for both mechanical shutter mode and electronic mode? Reason being, I think the 15fps in Mech. mode is enough for my needs, and I can avoid any rolling shutter issues as well.
Thanks Duade for pursuing this. I have the same issue with the R6. The focus point is on the bird’s eye and it is out of focus. I have missed many great wildlife shots and I thought it was me. I only use 12 frames per second with electronic first curtain shutter. I’m constantly saying to my wife how is this out of focus when the red square is clearly on the eye. She uses Sony and suggests I should change!
I’m also an R6 user and experience exactly the same problem.
This honesty from Canon makes me appreciate their cameras a little more. For the price it’s an amazing tool! Thanks for all your great videos!
My R6 is the same. Canon yet again dropping the ball. Ppl shouldnt applaud them for their honesty if they provided products with these faults without telling or fixing.
I agree. The are using features like high shutter speed to promote their products. I fact they are lying, realising and admitting after sales that this is not working.
I am truly upset. I know before I would definately opted for another option. What a shame Canon.
Thank you for addressing the R7 issues, Duade. Canon should have clearly communicated the capabilities and limitations of the R7 at launch. Instead of leaving customers with a potentially problematic product, they owe an official apology to R7 users. They should either offer a suitable alternative or release firmware updates that resolve the issues. I, too, have been experiencing these issues for quite some time.
I agree Canon shouldn't have pushed their specifications if the performance doesn't match it. Unfortunately it's a limitation of the read out speed. They can't improve it with firmware due to the slower technology in the camera itself. It's like your personal computers processor speed, it can't be changed with software updates.
IMHO you as a user have a way to do all that already. Switch the EVF to OVF simulation where the image taken from the sensor for the viewfinder feed, which also is used to derive the autofocus, will have higher contrast.
I don't think a firmware update is going to make the readout speed of a sensor used in the 90D any faster. The R7 was a gap filler product to say the least and betrays its namesake. The camera should have been limited to 10FPS and had a rebel tag put on it.
@@msmith2016this isn't the same sensor as the 90D.
@@msmith2016 It is pretty good at 15fps....in fact it is only low light and low contrast situations where it struggles..... so it does in fact perform at 30fps in good conditions. I have used 30fps many times with 100% hit rate and same with 15fps. Canon actually warns on p.469 of the user manual the various situations where AF will struggle. This is what it says:
Shooting Conditions That Make Focusing Difficult
Subject with low-contras| such as the blue sky, solid-color flat surfaces or when highlight
or shadow details are clipped.
Subjects in low light.
Stripes and other patterns where there is contrast only in the horizontal direction.
Subjects with repetitive patterns (Example: Skyscraper windows, computer keyboards, etc.).
Fine lines and subject outlines.
Under light sources with constantly changing brightness, colors, or patterns.
Night scenes or points of light.
The image flickers under fluorescent or LED lighting.
Extremely small subjects.
Subjects at the edge of the screen.
Strongly backlit or reflective subjects (Example: Car with a highly reflective surfaces, etc.).
Near and distant subjects covered by an AF point (Example: Animal in a cage, etc.).
Subjects that keep moving within the AF point and will not stay still due to camera shake or subject blur.
Performing AF when the subject is very far out of focus.
Soft focus effect is applied with a soft focus lens.
A special effect filter is used.
Noise (dots of light, banding, etc.) appears on the screen during AF.
Thank you for your tenacity. Those of us who do not have the weight of your reputation applaud your efforts. Your effort has helped me understand my camera much better. Thank you very much!!!!
Thanks Chris, not sure my reputation has much influence but if it helps to educate and get answers then I am happy. Cheers, Duade
Thank you Duade for contacting Canon and sharing their feedback here. Definitely this will help lot of canon r7 owners to know the limitation of the camera and better adapt to it.
Someone had pointed out that most of the people who are complaining about this issue are those who have been using higher end cameras like the R5 and R3 and people, like myself, who upgraded to the R7 don’t seem to notice or mind this issue.
I think for its price the R7 is doing exactly what I expected it to.
Thanks, yes, you are correct and in isolation the R7 AF is very good, just not as good as the more expensive bodies as one would expect. Cheers, Duade
Surely the main aim of any camera is FOCUS! Dread.
Thanks for taking the effort in testing to figure out this issue with the R7. Props to Canon for being honest about their response to you. The high frame rate is one of the main things that attracted me to purchasing this camera coming from the 90D, but to be honest, I almost never shoot at that rate. Dealing with that many files can be so daunting so I generally never shoot past the 15, and in some cases even less. The lower contrast seems to be an issue with lenses as well, and I typically use the Sigma 150-600 C on my R7 or the RF 100-400 but even with the inconstancies of these 2 combinations I still get a better keeper rate vs my older 90D as far as photos being sharp. As a hobbyist shooter the issue doesn't really annoy me that much. Someone using the camera for their livelihood I could understand the disappointment. Having picked up the R6MII just after release, I find I have to force myself to use the R7 now although I do take it in my car as a daily when I go to work, but If I am going out for some more serious shooting I will use the R6MII and use the R7 as a back up, the R6mII is just a so much better camera in autofocus and readout speed, Iso performance and dynamic range, but that is expected with the price difference, maybe the lower MP helps with the R6MII, which is the only thing I dislike about the R6MII. I plan on keeping the R7 for now but who knows for how long with more bodies coming out in the near future.
Thanks for sharing your experience Tony and I agree with everything you have said, the R7 is a real paradox, it offers so many wonderful features but has a few issues that prevent it being the camera I had hoped it would be, this is not Canons fault, more my personal expectation of the camera having been a long time 7D user. I agree re the R6II, that is just a fun camera to use. I can only hope Canon do give us a pro APSC next time around with the R7II. Cheers, Duade
I have until now believed the deficiency to be my amateurism, it is good to know it's not me, it's you the camera. Thank you. Cheers Warner
Seems that sensor readout speed is the most important characteristics of mirrorless cameras for wildlife photography, as AF and rolling shutter are greatly impacted by it.
I agree. I gotta give Duade a lot of thanks for him really bringing it out in the open.
Thanks, yes, it seems so and I am sure this will improve over time. Cheers, Duade
If EOS R7 readout speed is constant regardless of scene brightness and frame rate, and if the tracking misfocus occurs only during certain conditions (i.e. low light, low contrast scenes) then the misfocus issue is not related to the readout speed. I suppose that misfocus would be due to some computational issue related to focus tracking, or some other cause.
Big thank you to Duade for the deep reviews of camera gear. It’s a big help to the community of bird photographers.
@@Ramodez I wonder if af point readout speed is coupled with sensor readout.
Thank you very much. I had the R5, R7 and now R3. The R7 will be used only during good light since the RF 100-500 produces 800mm reach. $1,500 R7 is still better than 7DMII.
R7 MII should be better.
R3 for low light is my preferred body for wildlife during the early morning and evening. Just add a 1.4!extender to get to 700mm for the same 100-500mm lens.
So in other words (as we already knew) the R7 is not really a replacement for the 7D mk 2. Canon has simply abandoned the idea of a professional APS-C body.
I'm impressed and extremely pleased that you actually got an honest answer from Canon. Keep up the good work!
Should manufacturers be honest and open about the limitations of their products, you ask?
Well, that would be nice. But can we expect that they'll ever print on the box: This camera does not have as good AF as (blabla)? I don't think so.
Should Nikon announce that their P1000 is not comparable in image quality to a system body with a big prime? Or are they allowed to assume that people should be able to figure that out on their own?There are actually people who I know to have bought the P1000 expecting it to be as good as a DSLR or mirrorless. I pointed out that if that were true, every sports and wildlife photographer would be using it, so the fact that they don't, pretty much proves that it isn't as good. But they were still convinced I was wrong, no doubt because they were in love with the camera.
So if we buy an R7 expecting the AF to be as good as the R3, R5 or R6ii, I don't think it's Canon's fault because they didn't warn us. We should be smart enough to figure that out on our own.
Or at least smart enough to watch some of Duade Paton's videos before making the purchase.
Just a side note… Canon and reviewers at the time of launch of R7 were claiming it had the same ai autofocus system on par with the R3. If that was true then some intentional gimping was done to hurt the R7 as to not compete with the R3. But that’s another conversation. Bottom line… honesty on the part of Canon and other manufacturers is needed.
Thank you for reaching out to Canon & thank you for sharing your experiences & helpful suggestions! It’s nice to know that it wasn’t all just user error! 😊
My pleasure!
I already have an R6 Mk II but was considering adding an R7 for the crop sensor benefit. I “hired” one from Test the Kit (a fabulous try before you buy programme in the UK) and used it for a couple of days. I was aware of your concerns before I tried the R7 and applaud Canon for their honesty about the limitations of the camera in the low contrast situations you describe. End result is that I won’t be adding the R7 to my kit! Not just because of the issues you describe - but the crop sensor benefits were not enough of a gain.
Canon obviously trusts you to own up to you like that. We've been trusting you for years. Concise and easily understood, so thank you Duade. You have a lovely way about you.
Thanks Joan, I appreciate the feedback and I am happy Canon were honest with their response. Cheers, Duade
I would assume Canon continues to reduces performance in various situations. They did that with DSLR, by refusing to use all crosstype af points, and only enabled them with certain lenses.
hi Duade, thank you for taking the time to address the issue and return to it when Canon responded. There is a setting in the camera to turn down the volume of the shutter when you are shooting in standard H mode. I typically shoot in this continuous mode and the shutter is very low. yellow menu/wrench folder #3 volume. you can then see to adjust the shutter volume! hope that helps with using the H mode over H+ and keeping your volume low for birds etc.
The volume setting is only through headphones
Okay so here is my take on what to do. If you have good light you can do as you please the autofocus will work just fine and you will get sharp shots. I like 15 fps with electronic first curtain but use 15 and 30 fps with electronic as well, both work great. On to the low light. As soon as I see that there is not enough light I switch to 15 fps electronic to firstly avoid any shutter shock. Then the settings. So usually I will set my desired shutter speed and aperture and then dial in that ISO. However what works quite well for me is to get the shutter speed as low as possible as well as the aperture and then I would deliberately make my iso a bit higher than usual. Say in low light with the robin you usually shoot at f/6.3, 1/250 s and then iso of say around 1000. I would then deliberately push my iso well above 2000 which will in theory get the contrast up and make the autofucus perform better. I then leave it up to Topaz to sort out the noise. Just something to try maybe, don't be afraid to push the iso up to get the contrast up. This works quite well. Let me know if it works Duade.
Thanks keep up your valuable work.
Thanks for the support, John, I really appreciate it. Cheers, Duade
There is a setting in the 'red menu' to reduce blackout between frames in H mode that works quite well. I have switched to H mode after finding shutter shock and focus drifting affected my shots. I shoot aviation photography and your videos and thoughts on this camera have been very valuable in helping me learn it's strengths and weaknesses, thank you.
Thanks for that, I wonder why it is not standard, seems like it should be. Cheers, Duade
Hi where abouts is this possibility in the red menu?
I shoot my R7 mostly in single shot mode, remember that one? I should be OK? I don't have time to filter out hundreds of very similar shots in post processing. All the other new features of the R7 I love. Thank you for explaining Canon's response.
so very true, most of the modern mediocretube sycophants are spray and pray shooters, NOT photographers nor are many of the content "creators" or other shills
@@silbay Wow! To be fair, NO ONE has reflexes fast enough to capture that perfect action shot, when the wings of a bird are in just the right position, the head turned just right; or when those wrestling fox kits both have their mouths open, teeth glistening, faces toward the camera and glint in their eyes! That's why wildlife and bird photographers often shoot in bursts. That's as far from "spray and pray" (shooting constantly, even when the animal is facing away... and I have certainly seen this) as it is from shooting on single shot. That's where 20 or 30 fps come in handy. Even with 10 fps on the 7dii and my old trusty 1d iv that I loved for years, I would often go, "Agh! If only I had the pose between that one and that one!"
@@alansach8437 If you read old photo magazines, you will always have photographers who got lucky shots celebrating their luck, with animals. They never declare skill in getting a great pose. Never.
Thanks Duade, this is a very vital video. God bless you bro for reaching out to canon and sharing this❤❤
The issue occurs even at the slower FPS. It reminds me much of the 7d(II) whose AF demonstrated similar focus variability. I suspect it is a combination of issues, slower sensor read out, APS-C (needing more light), smaller apertures (f/7.1), etc.
It occurs on the R6 as well, especially with the RF 100-400 and worse when an extender is added. The RF 800mm has the same problem but because it has a slower focus motor it is less likely to rapidly drop out of focus.
There was a lot of flack over the 90D AF tracking before, which seemed like it was designed for a lower shooting speed than 10fps. while neither of these are stellar in that regard, they are more likely to pause focus instead of pulsing or hunting like the R series seems to be doing especially with third-party lenses like the 150-600mm from Sigma and Tamron.
Good work, Paton.
Maybe you could suggest Canon to give us a firmware with the option to set the value of FPS in Electronic Mode.
Or at least a new fixed option with 8 or 10 fps.
I was a Canon shooter for over 20 years and I recently sold my R7 and all my lenses and just switched to Nikon because of the autofocus issues they had. I am happily shooting with a much cheaper Nikon alternative that works perfectly fine for wildlife. The autofocus is reliable, which is much more than I could say for the R7. I am eagerly awaiting my 180-600mm and expect to by blown away by its performance for the price.
Hi - which Nikon model?
I'm using the R7 and RF 100-500mm, I watched this video and made the recommended settings and the battery life is longer and the photos are much better. Thank you Duade.
Thanks for keeping us updated on this subject Duade!
As an R7 Owner i want to add my two cents to this.
I did some tracking AF tests with a subject rotating in a circle shooting bursts of over a second.
The subject was moving back and forward by at least 20 cm so this test wasn't aimed at the focus shifting on a still target. Tested with the official RF-EF adapter and the Canon EF 24-70 f2.8.
I discovered that the higher the framerate the better the camera tracked the subject. The slower the framerate, especially with EFCS, the longer the screen stays dark even though the sensor should be "open" for much longer than with the high framerates. This seems to be true even when using electronic shutter for some reason. By far the best tracking was achieved with 30 fps and electronic shutter.
A second thing that i found is related to the exposure simulation. I didn't do any proper testing on this yet so its mainly speculation.
It seems like the exposure simulation affects the performance of subject tracking. When manually adjusting the ISO and thus under or overexposing the image in the preview, the subject tracking seems to be affected. I assumed that the processor of the camera would adjust the exposure while the sensor would capture the best image possible (for the preview, not the actual photo) so the AF has the best preview to work with.
With exposure simulation disabled the tracking seems to be better since the exposure for the final image doesn't effect the preview exposure and AF.
Again, this is mainly speculation from me since i didn't to any proper testing yet.
Great observation Peter, ExpSIM could possibly rob cpu cycles from its tracking ability... this is one setting that can be turned off.
Thank you for doing the work to get this clarified by Canon. I have been saying in the comments on this and other fora that the issue was data throughput of the focus configuration that offers such high shutter speeds and rates, and that data bus was an issue with the R7 specifically, but basically was a voice in the wilderness.
Canon marketing have a bit of a history of pushing features that cannot be supported - overheating of the R5 when used as the video camera in the much-touted high resolution modes they really featured, for example. That created an expectation that could not be supported for some time, until several firmware updates, but by then the damage was done.
In the case of the R7, attention fell on the Sigma 150-600c as the culprit, but with the R5, R6 and R6II units I shoot with, that was never an issues, and Sigma went to the trouble of putting out a video claiming that there was no issue with their lenses and the Canon R-series MILC bodies when shooting birds on the wing - although I noticed that they demonstrated their assertions with the R6 body and not the R7. That was in the context of a lot context of perceived issues with 3rd party legacy lenses. It was not so much the lens, as the focusing system for that configuration, and what was expected of it - poor marketing and communications Canon.
The sensor readout speed for the density of the 33MP APS-C sensor, at high electronic shutter and burst speeds needs a BSI/Stacked sensor. It is no coincidence that the R3 camera used for sports, which demands a high shutter speed and fast tracking, has a more modest sensor size of FF 24MP and DOES have a BSI/stacked sensor, decent data buffer along with high speed CF-Express card capability to support high shutter burst speeds. In the R7 the focus, shutter, processor, and buffer data transfer are not up to the advertised H+ speed they promoted. Basically the system bus system is out of balance. It develops a backlog of data that cannot be processed in time to allow all of the other components to work effectively. I actually shoot in mechanical most of the time, but the mechanical shutter in the R7 sounds like a tinker's cart.
I looked at the R7 when it came out, came to the conclusion that it was built to a price and found that disappointing as I truly, truly wanted a flagship APS-C MILC that was a valid successor to the 7DII. I will re-evaluate my decision to avoid the R7 when a MkII version comes out if that has the elements that are missing. On the other hand, if the R5MkII comes out as suggested with a BSI/stacked 60MP sensor, I will likely go in that direction and simply use either 1.3 or 1.6 crop modes when necessary, as I do now.
Thanks for taking the time to comment Trevor and yes, the readout speed in these mirrorless bodies does seem to be the heart of the system. I noticed the AF difference to the R5/R6II almost immediately but was confused as I thought the R7 had the same AF system so always suspected my camera was at fault. But over time I suspect your explanation is logical. I imagine Canon themselves would have data on the number of returns or complaints re the R7 AF and will hopefully make necessary improvements in future models. Cheers, Duade
Been o/seas in South Africa with my R7 and RF 100-400mm (the bigger lens was too heavy to pack) and have really loved this setup. Been shooting electronic shutter only at H (not H+). It's working incredibly well in decent light. In poor light it does struggle more to properly focus. I get best results just leaving it on wide-area auto focus with animal subject detect enabled all the time. I use one of the back-buttons to (occasionally) select an individual point if the camera is lost. In poorer light I get exactly the issue you've experienced... seems to pick a random thing instead of the eye.
I remember them pushing the false idea that the focus system was derived from the R3. I agree it's most likely the capability of the sensor that cause the af to lose focus between shots. And I think experience of many has shown the limitation of these crop sensors, they have always been noisy and poor performers in low light. In great light they perform quite well. For the price, it's still a very good value.
Some very useful information in your video. I have another brand of camera and sometimes the focus point indication is on the subject but the actual focus is somewhere else. You explanation could apply to my camera as well. Thank you for all the work that goes into your videos they are all excellent, informative and honest. Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge.
My XH2 can fire at high frame rates, but subjects moving towards the camera are usually out of focus using say eye tracking of my dog. When I use standard point and I keep the spot on the dogs face it works much better. I think the additional calculations of using eye tracking in certain circumstances overwhelms the camera. Read out speed of the sensor seems to be a more important spec than I first realized too.
Getting ready to purchase this camera, moving up from the 80D. Good to know the limitation, but still has plenty of benefits to upgrade.
I've experienced this not just at 30fps but at 15fps in Elec 1st curtain mode. While it's great that Canon admits that the camera specs outperform the camera hardware. While the sensor likely has something to do with it I would suspect the processor as well. If their buffer barfs when you overload it the processor likely does as well. I don't care that it's called the same thing as the one in the R3 and R5, it has to be a lesser chip.
Yes, it has to be cheap. Imagine earlier they used to use DIGIC X image processor in 1dx mk iii and now every mirrorless camera has the same processor. It’s stupidity. It’s funny to believe these r3 and r100 have the same processor
@@shibampal6940 exactly. So why are they using the same name and actually lying? Maybe it is the readout speed, maybe it is that the processor is not on the same speed. Overall it is nice to have the option to use more frames, but if the processor can handle up to say 10 fps, when a subject is moving, then it should be said, because people who buy it, buy it for these kind of situations. So if it can't handle 30 fps on STATIC subject, even if it sounds good on paper and makes people buy it, which is why they are doing it, is not OK. It is like car acceleration 0-60 in 4 seconds, but when it has the biggest engine, but your gets it in 10 seconds and they have named the engine the same.
The Fuji H2S has the same issue with 40fps and it’s a stacked sensor. The best is to shoot with „lower“ framerates, on the R7 as on the H2S.
My previous camera the A7R IV had this problem, the focus jumps were not as severe they were jumping to the tail or legs. Part of the reason was the lack of bird eye AF but it happened much more in overcast conditions which means it was a contrast problem. I'm now using the Sony A1 and it's confidence inspiring to go through my images and see no strange autofocus shifts.
Congrats on the camera mate, seems the readout is pretty important when it comes to AF accuracy. Cheers, Duade
Thanks Duade. The R7 is my first mirrorless camera and my first with tracking etc. I thought that that the odd soft shot I was getting on high speed continuous was down to me. But now having looked back over my photos, I am pretty sure I’ve been experiencing the same issues you have described in low light/low contrast scenarios. I am still learning about what this camera can do (previous camera was a 7D2), so the advice you give on settings is invaluable. Thank you so much.
Seen the same happening with perfectly still subjects, using the RF 100-500 mm which has worked great on the R6, very frustrating. The focus is locked on the eye and still only 1/5 images are sharp (H+ continuous shooting).
However, I was using IS mode 1 (“still mode”) and now that I have tested mode 3 (“erratic mode” but only active during exposure) the hit rate seems to improve significantly.
So, I’m inclined to believe it is the IS+IBIS throwing AF off (micro shift) and the R7 can’t process as much as the R6.
Though framing without active IS during AF can be a challenge too.
Thanks for all your videos, very informative.
Presumably the lens becomes a factor, as well as the sensor. The slower DC and STM motors will cause more issues than the USM ones.
Great that Canon were able to be upfront and honest about the limitations. I think it is helpful for them all to be like that upfront. It can be part of the purchasing decision or ready us for what we then work with - new or used. Most of us want the best of our gear and knowing the limitations really helps that. Thanks for sharing Duade - reckon it'll be helpful for a number of people with this body.
Thank you for this video! I think it cannot be expected from the manufacturer to tell you all the limitations upfront, after all they want you to buy their camera, and the R7 does perform well in good light, it seems.
I was lucky enough to be able to give the R7 a try as an upgrade for my 90d, and finally decided to go with Fuji instead. One of the reasons was the slow focusing of my Sigma 150-600 C lens in the shop environment (hard work due to the poor light). But that was only one of many reasons, to be fair.
For its price, the R7 is a great camera, and thumbs up to Canon for their honest answer, I’m impressed.👍
Thanks for your comment and I agree with what you have said, Cheers, Duade
Thank you so much for all of your videos concerning this camera. I bought it on Thursday and was able to do some bird photography on Sunday. I shot still birds, flying birds, bird in contrast, those in low light, etc...Needless to say I was pretty upset with the results. I would say 99% of my photos were out of critical focus on the eyes of birds. I even have the "show focus points" plugin you mentioned and the box is right on the eye but when I zoom in 200% it's fuzzy. That was on a still subject in high contrast. I was handheld ISO 200 with shutter of 1/800 with a canon 100-400mm ii lens and canon ef-r adapter. I was so hopeful for this to finally replace my old 7Dii. But I compared the pictures I took today of a still flamingo to those I took 2 months ago of a black skimmer at 200% magnification and the 7Dii beats the R7 outright, it's not even a fair fight. I have no clue why all of my shots are not critically sharp and I don't want to jump through Canon hoops and settings to maybe have a 50% success rate. I have a better keeper rate with the 7D. I just googled why this was happening and came across your videos. Thanks so much for being honest, I think Canon dropped the ball on this one and I will be returning this purchase.
I still have my 7Dmk2 works fine, also have a 100-400mm II and a couple of amazing Canon EF L tele-primes and some old 1d series cams. I initially got excited when first announced did a pre order waited almost 2 months then cancelled it. I might have been better off getting the R5 but in the UK we were talking £4299 I thought no way paying that for a non stacked or non BSI sensor cam ....it's too old school. I'm about to order the Nikon Z8 and a 180-600mm. Canon are too slow with sensor dev and rely on paper big number specs and heavy sales marketing. I like Duade reviews he doesn't get frequent visits from Canon money truck like some.
The most important thing for a camera is to deliver sharp pictures. I think it is really strange that if you use the R7 at full shooting framerates you are not garuanteed to have that many sharp shots. I was really hoping the R7 was a replacement for my 7Dii. Guess I’ll have to wait a little longer. Maybe Canon will surprise us with an R4? :-) Thanx for the video. Keep m coming!
Thanks Duade, I believe these high burst speeds work well (AF and Blackout) with stacked sensors and less with other sensors. I have no problem with the OM-1 and the old Sony RX10M4, both equipped with stacked sensors.
Hi Duade. Thanks for the video, much appreciated. It's good that Canon came back with an honest explanation and at least we can now get on with using our R7's without wondering if there is something wrong with our particular example. I've read many of the comments already posted and not sure I can add anything particularly new. Although I must say the comment someone made about marketing people versus engineering people within Canon certainly seems more than probable. We still need to remember that it is only a few years ago that we could not even dream of the autofocus performance of the R7 (and quite a few other mirrorless cameras), never mind the R3's and Z8/9's of this world. I've had some fantastic results from my R7 and I'm sure many more to come - although I'm also sure I'll be looking carefully at the R7 Mk2 as and when it makes and appearance :) . Thanks again John
Thanks John, totally agree and we are quick to forget about DSLR AF, the R7 is a pretty big jump from the 7D and for its price offers wonderful features. I am being a bit critical and on reflection I still get many wonderful shots as you do. Cheers ,Duade
Thank you very much for doing such a detailed follow-up video on this issue and for suggesting a workaround.
I'm deeply disappointed in Canon for not being upfront about this whole thing in the first place.
At the launch of the R7, it was reported that it had a similar autofocus or shared similar AF characteristics with R3 (I dont remember the exact wording). Nowhere was it mentioned that the AF was inferior to the R5/R3 or that you would have to shoot at 6,5 fps/8 fps in lower light/contrast situations.😠
is it a case of marketing hype or of a company misleading the customers? 😠
I just wish Canon had been more upfront about the whole thing, because that would have influenced significantly my decision, just like Canon refusal to have third-party lenses manufacturers offer AF capable RF mount lenses (that was clear to me at the time).
Again, I very much appreciate your dedication to helping R7 users understand the limitations of their camera, and I'm now a subscriber (don't know why I wasn't already one).
Cheers
As an additional comment, we should all keep in mind is for everything else except fast moving low light extreme bird photography, the EOS R7 holds its own. I was thinking that for use on an African safari where you take photos of large animals and landscapes and people, the cameras performance should be excellent. The crop factor advantage is huge if the light is right. Using a Canon 100-500mm lens and with the R7 crop factor, at 360mm you have a 576mm equivalent at f5.6. At 151mm, you have a 242mm equivalent at 4.5. Of course, at 500mm you have an 800mm equivalent at 7.1. Finally, I have found that when the R7 is combined with the 100-500 lens, using Fv mode is the way to go; the two wheels available on the camera combined with the programable ring on the lens work as the optimal system. For me. :)
Thanks Edward, yes, I agree, for its price it offers incredible performance really. In nice light it excels and the reach is fantastic. I think the reason I am a little critical is I love the R7 100-500 combo, I just wish the R7 performed like the R6II in low light etc. Cheers, Duade
Thanks once again Duade, that was excellent! I also returned my R7 to the Canon lab and they also said there was nothing wrong with it. I’ll persevere with the settings you suggest and see if I experience an improvement. I don’t remember any firmware updates coming out for the R7 but I wonder if improvements could be made. It would be nice to think canon were trying to improve it but I’ll not hold my breath!
Great work Duade, thank again.
Best, Julian.
Thank you Duade for investigating this in a very kindly and diplomatic way. It confirms my conclusions.
In the days after the purchase of the R7 I discovered to my great surprise the many limitations of this camera. It is a poor flagship of Canon’s APS-C R system. The R7 is not a worthy successor of the 7D mk II. I had readily paid more to have a more refined camera. So I concluded that Canon isn’t serious about APS-C.
For me portability is very important as I do fauna and flora photo inventories on day long walks in all kinds of terrain (hilly, sandy, swampy,...) often under a burning sun. Or on bicycle tours.
Canon will never release long telephoto zooms for APS-C. And to make matters worse decided not to allow third party lenses. Canon is nudging bird photographers towards full frame cameras (R5, R6) and big heavy lenses, while the 1,6x crop factor is lost with them. For my bird photography I consider 800mm to be the absolute minimum reach on a telephoto zoom; 1200mm is even better. And still cropping in post is mostly applied.
So I had to look elsewhere for more compact and lighter weight gear. That’s why, three weeks ago, I bought an OM-5 and Olympus 100-400mm which I am testing now. So far I am very pleased with the performance of the AF for birds in flight and with the sensor noise of this little camera. The shutter is pleasantly silent. I can add an OM-1 or Panasonic G9 II later if necessary.
I have Canon cameras and lenses since 2008 (amongst others : 6D, 7D mk II, 80D, EF 100-400mm L I and II, extender 1,4x III). I use the R7 now for macro photography with my EF-S lenses and RF 35mm f1.8 macro (my only one ever RF lens). The R7 is indeed a good enough general camera and in the end I am happy with it. I also use the iPhone 13 Pro, but not for macro and close-up. The synthesized close-up images often look like watercolor paintings and have an horrible bokeh.
My pictures can be found here : observation.org/users/112911/photos
The fact that your channel has almost 70k followers doesn’t hurt your ability to get a response from Canon.
I honestly hope I get treated the same as any other Canon owner, but if they do somehow know about the channel, I am happy if that helps get answers for my viewers. Cheers, Duade
Very nice to hear Canon was forthcoming! Thanks for doing the footwork and making this video.
Thanks for this video. Very helpful. The loudness of the shutter on the R7 makes it practically unusable in most wildlife situations. Very annoying. When I grab it after using my R5 with EFC I am always shocked by how loud it it. I wish Canon would allow an even slower frame rate with electronic shutter, say 10 fps. Or even better, it would be great if you could just specify the frame rate you want. Again, terrific video.
Excellent video, Duade. Thank you very much for going to the trouble and getting the answers. Your prescription for minimizing the issue sounds very similar to what a friend does with his R7. (To this point, I've tended to take about 3 times the number of shots of each subject because I assumed 2/3 of the images would be bad from the R7.)
This is such a great piece of information! Thank you, Duade! I have been following your R7 investigation as I have been considering buying one. Recently, I saw it was on sale at USD $1099 at Canon USA web site as a refurbished unit. It was a great price, but I did not buy one as I wanted to have an excellent AF for my next camera. I am currently using 80D DSR and wanted to upgrade it, but you know, cameras in these days are so expensive and I thought R7 could be a great option. Thank you again, Duade!!
Thank you Duade. People should read this before they buy the R7 or any Canon product for that matter.
5:53 So, those numbers between the R7 and the R5 are almost exactly 30 and 60fps. (16.67 and 33.3ms respectively). That 2ms difference for the R7 doesn't allow for much compute time, so yeah... Makes sense to me to limit to 15FPS with AF to give much more compute time after the sensor is read and processed.
Wow Duane, I'm so impressed on your follow-through with this! I'm grateful to hear this too because I returned my R7 within 10 days of purchase for the same reasons that you reported. Having your validation is good because I now know I wasn't crazy! Would I buy it again? I don't think so. I do like that Canon gave you an honest answer though. I've been using the Fuji xh2s and super happy since.Thanks again.
Thank you for talking to canon and sharing the answer with us.
Looks like stacked sensors should be in all mirrorless cams
It is always Canon takes the responsibility and does help all.
Thank you for the follow up on this issue, I still love my R7 and will try these settings out as a work around!
Thanks mate, it is still a lovely camera that delivers excellent photos, I just hope this small issues are fixed in the version 2. Cheers, Duade
I think camera companies should tell you about things they know you need to know. There can be so many overall that it is almost unreasonable to expect them to go into great detail. You can expect some limitations with the less expensive gear. They could state that said camera is not the best choice for low light situations where you need high frame rates, as an example, and leave it at that. I think that is reasonable disclosure. It is a plus that Canon got back to you on this issue; a plus with trusting Canon. Thanks, Duade.
Thanks Jim, yes, I guess we as customers need to take some accountability in research etc and it is difficult to list everything. I guess we are lucky to have UA-cam these days. Cheers, Duade
Duade you are a real champion for Canon users here. You have proved a limitation that in a sense mirrors the old adage that you get what you pay for perhaps. Canon have admitted this in their comparison to the higher-spec sensors of the R3 and R5. The limitation of the sensor in lower light and on high burst rates perhaps should not be your personal disappointment but rather a case of over-hyped marketing. Still an awesome camera given the specs verses price but great to know and understand this limitation. Cheers mate!
Thanks for the feedback Mike, your words are wise and very true, Cheers, Duade
Thanks for your vid. The settings suggested by Canongs are pretty much what I arrived at after a few weeks of using the camera. I was a disappointed initially as we were told the AF system was pretty much the same as that found in the R3. The manufacturers should certainly be more open about the limitations of their products.
That's some good information Mr. Paton. I sincerely appreciate the time and effort you have put into this issue. I mainly shoot birds in flights, so an apsc isn't a good choice. I did not figure that out until I got a full frame camera as I am now much quicker on the birds with my new 500mm lens. Thanks a bunch.
Good video, Duade. I got my R7 a year ago to replace my beloved 7D MKII which I have used for sports and wildlife photography. I like a lot of things about the R7, I already owned the R but wanted the crop sensor mirrorless as I am transitioning to RF mount lenses. But as much as I like the R7 I feel it was pushed out a bit before it was really ready. The focus issue you discuss is one reason, I have noticed it on occasion with my camera as well and also shutter bounce. Another thing is the lack of a vertical battery grip. A lot of my shots, typically with longer lenses are verticals and my wrist gets so tired with the R7 not having the comfort of the buttons on a battery grip. I also like the balance better with long lenses and while one can easily swap out a dead battery I just prefer having 2 in the grip. I have a feeling in the 2024 we might see an R7 MkII which will have a much improved focusing system as well as less rolling shutter and finally a dedicated vertical battery grip. Just my 2 cents!
Thanks for diving deep into the issue. Yes, I think manufacturers should be a bit more open about such issues. I also think the R7 shouldn't be considered as the succesor to the 7D2...it never was, apparently. With fast moving subjects, like a jet figher during a fly by on an air show, even R6 Mark II just barely could keep up so R3 is the only solution for now. Everything else mirrorless from Canon is not fast enough, for now.
Thanks, yes, I agree, the R7 is really a 90D blend, not a pro APSC that we hoped for. I'm sure things will improve over time, we just need to be aware of the limitations for now. Cheers, Duade
So basically Canon are saying they don't provide a Ferrari for the price of a corolla. Sounds fair to me. I'm pretty happy with my R7.
Great explanation. It’s clear Canon falsely advertised the capability of the camera. How many bought the camera based on the frame rate? Now for canon to say it can not do 30 frames. Yes Canon should have limited the frame rate to 15 to improve the image quality and customer satisfaction.
Thanks for sharing this very valuable information, Duade! There are a lot of reasons that cause soft pictures. Knowing the imitations of the camera is very very important so that we don't waste time trying to change the wrong things and cause even more problems.
Thanks! No one else did this and your tips are golden. Hat off !!
Thanks for the support, I appreciate it, Cheers, Duade
Thank you for this Duade... You have just made me feel so much better that I have made the right decision and sold all my Canon gear (40 years a Canon user) and bought into Olympus OM-1 and lenses. And I do not regret the move as the Olympus is reliable and does what it says on the box ! There should be no excuse for Canon... I have had these let downs in the past where there is an issue...and the issue is resolved in the next version of the model...! This is highly annoying to say the least... the true capabilities of a camera should be fully available to everyone straight off...where I am sure people could make their own mind up about what is acceptable to them. It's not good to market a camera saying it can shoot at such and such a speed then 6 months down the line admit its cannot do what it was purported to do....Very naughty Canon.... Many thanks for your excellent channel always a pleasure to watch....
Thanks for the feedback, great to hear you are enjoying the Olympus, a very fun kit. Cheers, Duade
Hi Duade, went through much the same experience as you with the R7. Not sure if it was luck, experience, or a little of both, but I switched to H mode a while back as a test because I found most of my focus issues were in poor contrast environments. Great that you spoke to Canon and helped validate this suspicion, and great work again mate. Garry.
Thanks Garry, nice to hear I am not alone and you figured this out on your own. Yes, I was happy Canon were so honest. Cheers, Duade
Hi Duade, It's really helpful to me. Once I dialed down from H++ to H, my keeper rate increase noticeably. I am shooting Tamron 100-400mm on R7 and really struggling, especially during low light conditions. Thumbs up, mate!
Thanks Rex, great to hear, Cheers ,Duade
I think they should have divulged these limitations since its clear from their response they already have benchmarks to show the R7 autofocus speed is slower than the higher models or at least they could have made it a selling point for the higher models. I for one would have just saved up for a R6 mark ii instead or would have gone to a different brand. There's nothing more frustrating than getting a new camera and couldn't get it to work consistently at its 'promised' performance only to find out it was never intended for those conditions at all. Those misleading specs are reserved for cheap, knock-off, startup brands. Not from a premier, popular brand like Canon. Thank you very much for taking the time to make this video. This, just like many of your videos has always been very helpful to me. Great work! 😊
Thank you, Duade. Your videos are the most helpful to me of any on UA-cam with my R7.
My pleasure Dave, Cheers, Duade
Thanks for this video. I'm upgrading from my 7D mk2 to the R7. All your videos are excellent and very helpful and honest. Keep up the good work and all the best to you.
Dave
Awesome, thank you!
The R7 will give you more good images at 30 frames per second than bad. So, discard the bad ones, if you do get some, and use the many good ones that you get. No camera, regardless of cost, will give you a perfectly focused image every single frame.
Great video Duade, I've got the R3 and R7 and I can totally agree with what you've said. I was having these issues like many other people but didn't realise about the switching from H+ to H which will enable the camera to cope much better. It seems common sense as like you've said it's price range is a factor in the capabilities between the two. Great video as always and very well explained. All the best Rich👍
Thanks for the update. This is what I was expecting.. it's a much cheaper body than the R5, and whilst shooting from a hide with a friend who has the R7 we also noticed that the hit rate on the R5 was much higher.. I would be interested to see how the budget R8 performs.
I bought my first DSLM in February and pondered getting the R7 or R6 II. I am really happy I got the R6 II.
Legend Duade!!!...thanks for all you do for us amateurs/pros out there 💯💯💯💯
Thanks duade for another great video. I too had the same problems. Thought it was me but never had the same issues with the R6 so I guessed I had a faulty camera. Sent it back to canon for testing and got the response that there was nothing wrong with the camera. Ended up selling it along with my R6 and bought the R5. Glad I did, I do miss the extra reach but the R5 is so much better.
Thank you for this feedback. I am also having this issue. It's such a strange thing.
Really interesting and helpful, as I prepare to purchase the R7. Thanks, Duade.
Спасибо! Очень полезный ролик! Thanks! A very useful video!
Thanks for this video Duade. This difference in performance of the R7 depending on having more or less light is something I really notice a lot. In low light I always try to shoot in electronic first curtain, but with good lighting, I'm enjoying shooting in electronic mode. Last month I had the opportunity to photograph Mountain Gorillas in Africa and the electronic mode was perfect for not disturbing the animals. I was even surprised, because I imagined that because they were black, the R7's autofocus could suffer due to the lack of contrast, but the eye-tracking worked perfectly and I couldn't believe the amount of photos with perfect focus I had.
Even with these limitations, my success rate with the R7 is much higher than with the 7d mark II (I think because I've never used an R5 or R6 and my maximum standard is the R7, I'm extremely happy with the results I'm having) .
Great to hear mate, you make very good points, if we look at our keepers the R7 still delivers on that front and in comparison to the 7D it is much better so in that regard it is a success. Congrats on the gorillas. Cheers, Duade
I ignored your comments at first. Just a rabid Kiwi off his leash! But I realized I was having the same issue in this situation: using the 100-500 and 800mm f8, in forest, overcast, early morning with low light. Tks for presenting a solution. When the R7 came out the smaller size, lack of the R6 feel, lack of the R6 control wheels had me wishing for a higher priced higher featured model. I think the R7 does exactly what the market needed (APS-C, great price, two card slots, full sized battery, very high res sensor) but not enough camera for me. I was and still am hoping for a pro-grade crop sensor R7 Mark II. In the mean time will enjoy the fellow birds who envy my great shots.
Hi Duade, thanks a lot for sharing this with the community ! Great to see Canon responded on your level of honesty ;-)
My pleasure!
Maybe it's time for Canon to make a Pro Level APC Camera.
This lines up with my usage, I never use 30FPS because the buffer is so shallow and I had never seen the issues you reported in your previous videos.