La Bataille d'Eylau
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- Опубліковано 8 кві 2008
- the Battle of Eylau (7-8 February 1807), one of the most bloodiest battle of the Napoleonic wars between Napoléon's Grande Armée and a mostly Russian army under General Bennigsen near the town of Preußisch Eylau in East Prussia.
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Murat, a real cavalryman; strong, insanely brave, flamboyant... and only slightly smarter than his horse... truly magnificent
With more beautiful hair than any steed, though 😂
That’s good enough. I mean, courage to inspire and charge headlong into death has its uses
Supongo que cargar al frente de la tropa uno se gana el derecho a lucir lo más magnífico posible 😆
@@usuariopromedio963 Si vas a encarar a la muerte al menos hazlo con estilo 😎
Not to mention an outrageous fashion clothes horse
When Murat smiled I nearly lost it. Only a true cavalryman would grin when told to attack an entire army with ten thousand cavalry. An awesome moment in time!
"Messieurs, l'Empereur nous regarde et nous allons avoir l'honneur de lui montrer ce que nous savons faire" (1:37) tout dit. Le simple fait de mentionner le nom de Napoléon (l'Empereur) était un talisman, une dose de adrénaline pour ses soldats. le meilleur exemple de ce que doit être un chef avec ses subalternes. Vive l'Empereur .
La charge de cavalerie est absolument magnifique
KillreDstone86 2nd greatest cavalry charge in human history as far as I know. Led by monsieur Joachim Murat who was also known to be a bonvivant and dandy but a ruthless and brilliant cavalry officer too. 11000 frensh cavalry men did their best to put pressure on the huge russian line to gain some advance and time for the retreating infanrty to regroup. I can't even imagine such hugh numbers of riders. In the aftermath frensh army gained a tactical victory but had no strategic benefit of this costly battle. lt must have been a truly magnificient and scary sight! The earth trembling under the constant hard gallop of uncountable horses. One frensh marshal later stated: "qual massacre et sans resultat." while walking past the more than 40000 victims of this bloody day (Biggest charge was at vienna in 1683 with 20000+ Polish, German and Austrian cavalry against ottoman army of 100000+)
Eh oui, c'est comme ça. Ottomans est un meilleur mot :) Merci beaucoup mon ami!
+Spqr France des cuirassiers français!
sir notre 14 ieme de ligne est aneantie
Je confirme
" non, il n'empêche que c'est magnifique !" ( 2:07).
Incroyable. Parler d'esthétique en dehors de toute autre considération ! Une autre époque qui ne manquait pas de classe.
C'est comme un général français pendant la guerre de Crimée sous Napoléon III. En parlant de la charge de la cavalerie anglaise contre les russes: "c'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre".
The French charge gives me goose bumps every time !
Killerjsa I agree. Especially the opening scene of Le Colonel Chabert.
It turns out beautifully in the movies ... In fact, it was a massacre. The French army lost 6,000 more soldiers than the Russian. On February 7, the Russian army drove the French army out of the city of Eylau twice. Only for the third time did Legrand's division manage to stay in the city.
On February 8, the main battle began ... After the attacks of Marshal Davout, the Russians weakened the center. And then Napoleon sent General Augereau's corps to attack the center. Suddenly a blizzard began. When it ended, General Augereau's soldiers found themselves in front of a Russian battery of 72 guns. The losses were terrible ... The Russians launched a bayonet attack, and Augereau's corps began to retreat. The Russian cavalry almost broke through to the place where Napoleon stood. But then Marshal Murat sent 7000 cavalrymen to the flank of the Russian troops ..... A new massacre began .... The Russians and French retreated to their positions ..... All the soldiers were so tired that they could not move .... Only artillery fired from both sides until 21 o'clock. But the troops were unable to advance. Neither the Russians nor the French ... This is the bloodiest battle in the history of Napoleon. At night, the Russian troops began to withdraw to the border .... The French army remained in Eylau for another 10 days ... They could not move, collected the wounded and buried the dead. After which the French army retreated to Poland ... For three months after that there was not a single battle between the Russians and the French.
why are you crying?
Borodino was
I think borodino is worst
@@vladescu3gа чему радоваться, вы что из дикого племени радоваться смерти?
"Faites donner la Garde" Punchline !!!
Halte aux feu soldat ! La vielle garde ne se bat qu'à la baionnette !
Mdr avant j'avais la même icône:-)
Sir le maréchal Ney et ses régiments sont aux contacts de l'ennemi 😆
Comment ne pas être fière d’être français quand ont voit ça
Только если ты при этом русский, мы тоже гордимся своими воинами
Wonderful scene from an amazing series! I wish I could have it too. I've never seen any film with so many well-uniformed extras, except maybe ":Waterloo" with the Yugoslav soldiers. The cavalry scenes I have never seen better than this!
In Waterloo they were the Soviet troops.
The costuming in this series is absolutely incredible.
"Halte au feux grenadiers, et l'arme au bras. La vieille garde ne ce bat qu'à la baïonnette!"
A chaque fois des frissons. Longue vie à la Garde Impériale et vive la France!
@SpainBlood001 It is definitely an excellent, outstanding series! I have collected and painted hundreds of French and Austrian soldiers (and some British, Bavarians, and Russians) of the epoch from the model lines of ITALERI and HAET mainly to commemorate the heroic days of Aspern-Essling and Wagram, but also Austerlitz, Waterloo, etc. I have some Saxons and Prussians to add as well. I already have 1,650 painted and about 800 more to do. Honor to the great heroes and commanders!
La vieille garde. Le plus vieux de la vieille. Ils étaient des guerriers féroces et les plus fiers toute empereur pouvait espérer posséder. Puisse le souvenir de ces géants légendaires de la guerre ne se démentira jamais!
12 000 horses for the biggest charge of history
8000 MAXI
@@pragma5475 déjà pas mal ..
TV Dominique Pilon énorme
Mongols?
Winged hussars?
2:10 that cav charge is one of the most terrifying charges to witness in person as an enemy that I've seen in media to date
il a fallut la coalition de 7 nations pour battre ce héros qu'est NAPOLÉON.sans la félonie des autrichiens jamais il ne perdais
dandal171 des anglais tu veux dire
Exactement , c'est lâche de se battre à un contre 4 , et de quand mm se prendre des grosses branlées un peu partout en Europe durant des années ! Vive la France !
@@nimahfz Les anglais surtout oui.
Mais les autrichiens ont trahis Napoléon alors qu'ils ont promis de ne plus lui faire la guerre après Austerlitz.
Bon c'est un peu la faute de Napoléon aussi....
Il a beaucoup trop humilier L'Autriche après Austerlitz. Un peu comme l'Allemagne avec le traité de Versailles.
Ils ont donc eu un esprit revanchard.
@@mrsupremegascon pas la faute à Napoléon si il est trop fort et qu'ils sont trop nuls 🤷♂️
@@julieneugene5584трусливо воевать, это когда европейские объединённые войска перешли границу российской империи, советского союза и соотношение было в разы больше, не надо драмы, мы все знаем кто был Наполеон
Vive l' empereur et vive la cavalerie -
@Char091Leclerc Napoleon was a great military genius (only Alexander on his par), with outstanding commanders, and his superb Grajde Armee. This series is excellent!
@SpainBlood001 By the way, the 1:72 figures are only about an inch tall (2.5 cms). I strongly advise against taking them out of their frame, since painting with each one in your hand is impossibly difficult. It's easier to move from figure to figure on the frame and paint them all together. Some people may want to make larger groups of soldiers of a certain regiment. My decision was 24 for infantry and 12 for cavalry. Artillery varies according to the kit: one cannon, but gunners 4 to 6.
Who else has the scope and influence on military history that Alexander and Napoleon have had? Certainly, Genghis Khan conquered many lands and made a huge empire, and although some of the conquests were the result of his generals like Subutai and Jebe, to whom he gave a good deal of initiative in invading the Caucasus and eastern Europe, still he might be considered a third military giant for the scope of his success.
Not a great depiction of this battle - it's hard to capture the scale of these big Napoleonic scraps, and on film and tv as here they come up looking like a brief skirmish, rather than the epic, titanic clashes they really were.
Even accepting it's tough to show such a battle, as it's from a show about Boney himself I'd have shown the moment at Eylau where he was nearly captured in the bell tower and his bodyguard and staff had to hold off attackers long enough for the Guard to rescue them.
Murat's cavalry charge at Eylau depicted in this clip was actually made up with about 11,000 men and horses (!), about 1,000 more than the Rohan at Minas Tirith. ;-)
***** I can't get past the skirmishy feel created by the low numbers.
*****
Spot-on at the condition that the Russians fought in their winter uniforms... their non-winter uniforms are green.
Agreed rock. Bautzen and Lutzen in the War of Liberation were THE most titanic battles of Napoleonic wars. More than 500,000 men struggled over one bloody field for 3 days.
@@jspee1965 If think Leipzig was even bigger.
@@gengis737 You are correct, Leipzig was the battle I was referring too. Cheers!
The look between them both when the Emperor ordered him to die was amazing.
Complete devotion
En réalité ce sont seulement les Russes qui ont vaincu la France sur le front et non pas les autrichiens qui ont jamais été capable de rivaliser contre Napoléon
Waterloo est une victoire prussienne et non pas anglaise comme on veut nous le faire croire contre une armée française qui était loin d'être celle de 1805.
La France avait de loin la meilleure armée de cette époque même à Waterloo malheureusement elle devait faire face à trop d'ennemis d'un coup
Non pas spécialement cela n'aurait pas été la première fois que Napoléon aurait gagné avec une armée moins nombreuse. Le fait qu'il est perdu est due surtout à ces généraux qui n'ont pas suivi ces ordres. Ils étaient lassé de la guerre.
waterloo victoire prussienne n en déplaise aux inculte si Blücher n aurait pa arriver Wellington aurait plier avant les 20 h du soir heure de la fin de la bataille et n oublion pa la non venue de Grouchy le sacrifice inutile de la cavalerie de ney les erreur de Jérôme Bonaparte quoique il n aurai pa du envoyer Grouchy 2 jour auparavant la bataille pour suivre blucher
Les autrichiens qui ont jamais été capable de rivaliser contre Napoléon? Tu oublies peur être l'archiduc Charles qui lui a tenu tête aux batailles de Essling et de Wagram ?
enfaite tu oublies que ils étaient genre 4v1 (angletrerre, hollande, allemagne belgique ou russie je sais plus). On était seul contre 5 pays. la Russie était plus maline, elle brûlait ses réseaux de ponts et jouer sur la température pour que les soldats francais tombent malade et meurent à cause du froid
Wolfman a la fin le Portugal et l’Espagne ce sont même rajouter mais ça montre juste une chose si il a fallut tout ces pays pour nous vaincre c’est qu’ont était trop fort
Ca Fera sans doute sourire que je dise cela, mais outre les hommes n'oublions pas les dizaines de milliers de chevaux morts pour la patrie !
+Rillus Aucun sourire se montre sur mes lèvres!
mon arrière grand pere a chargé a eylau la plus grosse charge du monde : une boucherie ne venez pas dire que napoleon etais un géni c'etais un con
il aeu la forte idée d'inventer le service militaire obligatoir avec les pays acoté qui n'avaient que des recrue par force un peu ce qui fait qu'il pouvais se pointer partout il avais des renforts
le vrais hero de l'histoire de napoleon c'est louis XIX
Twytix il était obliger de vendre la Louisiane sinon elle serait tomber au main des anglais
et c'est un Génie militaire désoler de te le dire
belle charge de la cav à murât ☺☺👍👍
Flash Power c’était l’une des plus grosse charge de l’histoire , avec le brouillard les russe ne pouvait entendre que le bruit des cavalier chargeant sur eux , certain mourrais sur place de peur !surtout quand il savent que c’est Murat qui commande la charge !
it is kinda strange though, it looked like Napoleons own cavalry was charging him when he looked into the binocular.
La France n'a jamais eu peur de se battre, facile de perdre plusieurs bataille qu'en vous avez une coalition en face de vous, Napoléon à au moins tenter d’unifié l'Europe
Surtout que la France c'est battu souvent à 1 contre 2 voir contre 3, et qu'il est bien plus dur, pour ne pas dire infiniment plus dur de faire la guerre en Europe du 19eme en terrain hostile face à des armées équipés et des généraux de valeurs, que d'avoir des colonies dans des desert de neige au Canada, ou desert de terre en Australie.
N'est ce pas les english ?
MrMANUBZH56 il a avant tout tenté de mettre une paix définitive par le traité d'Amiens 1802 qui faisait reconnaître à la coalition la République française et ses conquêtes en Italie du nord.
Georges III d'Angleterre rompra le traité de paix 6 mois plus tard.
c'est plus de 1200 navires marchands français de capturer dans les ports anglais.
mais en fait la stratégie de notre empereur se basait sur la BLITZKRIEG(la guerre éclair)
il attaquait ses ennemis en train de se préparer avant qu'ils ne soient prêts
MrMANUBZH56 Ici en Nouvelle-France, la France a réalisé des exploits face à des troupes anglaises, les gens ici ne connaissent que les défaites, ils pensent que nous sommes un peuple de perdants...
oui!
hélas on est obligés de planer sur les faits majerus de notre histoire.
mais grâce à un youtubeur j'ai beaucoup appris sur la lutte acharnée des forces françaises et du marquis de Montcalm.
mais la lutte continue!
VIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE!
silentkillerqc Tu parle du marquis de Montcalm ? :)
@SpainBlood001 Forgot to say, the French general staff with Napoleon, marshalls, and some Chasseurs de la Garde is by ITALERI. Anybody else interested in Napoleonic modeling can look up the two companies. In addition, ITALERI has a couple of kits at the scale of 1:32, if you want to begin on a larger scale until you get the practice. There isn't much variety at 1:32, however. As I remember, they had French dragoons and Austrian grenadiers, but of very good quality.
I Will be proud to fight for Napoleon' Grand Arme
This was one WORST MASSACRES of the Napoleonic Wars ever - probably only comparable to Borodino...However HERE the "image" of the battle has had a lil'..."cosmetic redefinition", 'cause the TERRIBLE LOSSES sustained by the French, were mainly due to the fact that there was a heavy snow-storm, so the lines of infantry couldn't even SEE THE ENEMY. One French column instead of marching against the enemy, screwed, and went practically parading ACROSS the Russian artillery, that spotted them and started firing "mitraille". When you got an infantry line column doing something like that, it is very possible they'll DIE QUICKER than change the direction of the attack. At the end Murat saved the day...... yet!... ...the French would get their Revenge - soon at Friedland they would BREAK the Russians... PS.VIVE L'EMPEREUR!Vive la France! Vive la Pologne!
C est surtout davout et le 3 eme corps qui sauve l armée. Encore une fois.
@@juliengac7442 Davout et la Division de Fer toujours sauvant le jour.
La Garde Imperiale, the most elite and brave army regiment of its time.
Успокаивайте себя, что все именно так, как вы себе представляете
I have this series in DVD in English. Such a great series on Napoleon.
this looks a really good series
super video
Many thanks for your kind words - though I'm about as academic as a loaf of bread! I find the contradictions impossible to fathom. On the one hand, we understand that there existed a world as portrayed by Dickens, yet on the other we can revel in the "Pomp and Circumstance". Again, my thanks.
Much more awesome than all battles in Ridley Scott abomination
La plus grande armée du monde
En son temps, malgré celà , elle a perdu la campagne de Russie, perdu encore à Waterloo.
On dira peut être que cette armé a perdu contre le Général Hiver, mais quelle Général qui ne tient pas compte du climat ?
@@mystereyou3817 Napoléon voulait faire une campagne rapide et gagner avant l'arrivée de l'hiver
Побеждает сильнейший, русские все войска были в Париже и платили по счетам @@bismarck3880
va-tu nous laisser dévorer par ces gens là? that's actually a pretty cool line. (are you going to let us be devoured by those people?)
Ceci est un film, je sais bien, mais il est très mal fait: tout d'abord La Bataille Eylau eut lieu dans des conditions météorologiques exécrable, mauvaises vue sur le champ de bataille, bourrasques de neige, banc de brumes.
La bataille fut confuse et chaotique. Des unités entière s'égarèrent sur le champ de bataille. Par exemple deux escadrons des Grenadiers à Cheval de la Garde se retrouvèren soudainement au millieu des lignes russes... à l'offre des Russe de se rendre, le Colonel Lepic commandant des Grenadier rétorqua: « Regardez-moi ces figures et dites-moi si elles ont l'air de vouloir se rendre ! », il ordonna la charge, les Russes furent à nouveau percées et ils regagnèrent les lignes françaises.
La Bataille d'Eylau fut également une véritable boucherie pour les deux camps.
Napoléon en fut d'une certaine manière choqué. Affecté par les pertes subies, et contrairement à son habitude, il restera huit jours sur le champ de bataille pour superviser les secours aux blessés.
That sweet sweet relief when reinforcements arrive. TW players know dat feel :3
Va tu nous laissez dévorer par ces gens là ! Celle là elle est célèbre cette phrase.
est-ce que cela va suffire?
- non mais il n'empêche que c'est magnifique...
@SpainBlood001 For designating a regiment I used three bases of infantry (24) and three bases of cavalry (12). This way I had a number but was also able to designate a good variety of regiments . That's up to you. My grandsons and I had the idea to use them as chessmen. I made a chessboard 39 3/4 inches long (ca, 1 meter) by 29 3/4 inches wide (ca 55 1/2 cms), leaving some margin and making, not squares but rectangles for the playing pieces. I'll describe how we do it. (next)
I remember watching this on TV once here in the States.
@Char091Leclerc what's the name of the series? Is it pretty historically accurate?
This show did a great job, it's sad they do not had budget to made battles at Waterloo and War and Peace level but yet they did a great job, they show us Lodi, Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau, Aspern Essling, Leipzing and Waterloo, very well done in most of it.
What show is it?
@@andrewcharles459 Napoleon 2002 series
La Garde meurt mais ne se rend pas ! Vive l'Empereur, vive la France !
la garde recule, your only as good as your last game.
Or, "MERDE!!!"
Vive la France!
Hombres realmente valientes, no le temian a nada..larga vida a Napoleón
Of which DVD is this from; I'd love to have a copy.
- Est-ce que ca va suffire ?
- Non, mais il n'empêche que c'est magnifique.
Can you please make a tranacript from every speach please pleaae :)
I've been reading book after book about Napoleon Bonaparte, I really want to learn French now!
This charge is considered as the largest cavalry charge in history and is the most documented amongst the other candidates, 12 000 horsemen, 900 meters width (3000 feets) and 200 meters long (650 feets), the only image you can get to have an idea of such a charge is to watch Lord of the Rings biggest charge its the only "image" close enough to this one.
This to say that a commander that can use a non commonly used weapon (like cavalry at this time) to change the face of a battle is the greatest
@SpainBlood001 It has been my pleasure to share with you, and thank you for calling me comrade. I hope that we will be so in spirit even though we will be on separate ways. By the way, you might be able to do something like this in your free time in the army. Maybe it will be a pleasant surprise for your sergeant or captain! Are you Spanish, because on my mother's side I had a great grandfather (Vicente Sanchez) who was a colonel under Maximilian and his parents were Spanish.
Vive l'Empereur! Tous a Warteloo en Juin 2015 pour les deux cents ans de la bataille!
It's not a movie.. it's a 4-part TV mini-series, simply called "Napoleon". It is very hard to get on DVD any more, but if you can find a copy, do get it! Search for Napoleon starring Christian Clavier if online shopping. Goto Wiki, search for "Napoléon (miniseries)" for more info.
@ragbones111
I suppose as a formation against cavalry, the circular sheltron of the 12th - 13th century might be considered to be an ancestor... the idea was the same, but differed from pike walls in that it was on all sides. the scots used it to great effect at falkirk and bannockburn
oh god I'm so excited to see old guards in action. Wat movie or tv series is this ?
Probablement le plus magnifique exploit de bataille de la vieille garde. Vive l'empereur!
@IGOTDOWNS it's an extract of a french TV series. the name of the serie is "napoleon" an the actor is christian clavier
Enorme!
@SpainBlood001 it's a personal project, with some input from two grandsons, particularly the older one who helped with some painting of the troops and horses, and he helped playing chess (and even beating me! --the nerve!). They're here at home in large box tops of filing boxes. But you can do it, or anyone else who reads about it and is interested, and it sounds like many are interested and knowledgeable.
vive la france et vive l'empire,
vive la france
@Lolrence c'est un peu tard pour le dire...
@@axoul3431 jamais trop tard pour l'empereur
@SpainBlood001 By the way, any modeling would be after basic training, which is pretty intense.
Je peux jurer que la voix doublée de Murat est Gilbert Lachance. Je reconnais ce ton de voix partout (voix francophone d'Ezio Auditore dans Assassin's Creed II).
Epic battle, Epic charge !!
Heu, Napoléon était excellent.
Mais il avait également réussi à trouvé des maréchaux exceptionnel
Juste une liste exhaustive :
Lanne
Murat
Lasalle
Berthier
Ney
Davout
Bernadotte
Jourdan
Kellerman
Massena
Mortier
Soult
Marmont
Oudinot
Etc...
C'est exact, mais Lasalle n'était pas maréchal, juste un "simple" général de brigade.
most squares are difficult to break unless the attackers were VERY well coordinated. however the 6th light infantry had their's broken when a fallen horse from the king's german legion crashed into the front and the rest charged through. this was at garcia hernanez. of course lancers were also deadly against a square!
@SpainBlood001 The King is frequently an emperor (France, Austria, Russia) with staff or guards, although Wellington is the British king piece with staff. The Queen could be the outstanding marshall & generals (four on horse). Castles are artillery groups (cannon and gunners). Bishops are heavy cavalry, and Knights are light cavalry (you have to know which is which to not get confused! ). Obviously, Pawns are infantry of whatever type.
charge of the guard was epic
i think i remember watching this as a training film for WW1.
3:45 why does one artilleryman have to fire two cannons? Cutbacks in military spending?
il nous faudrait un Napoléon !!!!! pour sauver la France
Oui bien d'accord vive l'empire !
Tous tas fais raison je peux revenir ci ça vous dit
et quelques millions de morts avec :-(
@ oui sauf que la majorité des guerres sous Napoléon ont été causé par les coalitions entre 1799 et 1815 et non par Napoléon
c'est vrai vous avez raison@@guillaumeclement9505
Look at the way the guns sit in their carriage, look at the angle they fire at, you can even see the "shot" hitting the building and the trajectory it takes in flight.
It is a four DVD serie, one DVD per part. It is French made by Yves Simoneau, I believe you might be able to find it in English version on Ebay or something like this!
If you find it, buy it, it is great!!
Les régiments de cuirassiers, impressionant n'est-ce-pas ! Et les grenadiers de la vieille garde! Ah lalalala, leur courage est epoustouflant!
Vive l'Empereur !
@malusaga merci, j'ai lu autant de nombres que je n'étais sure de rien.
Is this series made in English or French? Ive seen a version in english too, I thought it the original
Indeed, i m afraid of nowdays because nothing is really clear, you don't know what to believe, everything is hidden. In my opinion we live in an unstable peace and for me a good war is better than a bad peace. I m glad I can have a "conversation" on youtube without trolls or what so ever. respect
What movie was this from?
what movie is this scene from?
squares are not just a british invention, it was part of the standard military tactics of the day- everyone used it. just depended on how steady the infantry was and if there was any enemy guns nearby. most of the brits at waterloo were behind a ridge, out of shot of the french canon, but the 27th weren't... and got slaughtered
What movie is this called?
@armynurseboy Il s'agit d'un extrait du film "Napoleon" avec Christian Clavier
A more impressive film than the present day Napoleon film by rigley Scott
whats the name of the movie?
What series is this?
Can someone please make full transcript of the dialogs in French?
What movie is this? Please tell me.
What was this series called?
@Shadowtagg
Did u quit school when u were 10 ??
Finally, a good clip about Eylau without crappy Spanish dub!!
canister ammunition or cannonball was used, and first was more useful against infantry
@SpainBlood001 Take a standard package of, say, hussars, and, changing the painting scheme, turn them into several different regiments. I have books on the Napoleonic wars that show uniforms of different regiments of the different nations that help me make the models look as accurate as my mediocre abilities allow me. I made bases slightly smaller than a calling card for the soldiers by groups of 8 infantrymen and 4 cavalrymen. There''s an excellent group of French staff with Napoleon.
Exactly. But, and without arrogance, it helps if we apply some logic and intelligence when arriving at that perspective, whatever it may be.
What is this scene from, a movie, documentry, series? can someone let me know. Many thanks
What is the name of this movie?
Where is this from ????
@SpainBlood001 Here in Texas we have Fort Hood where cavalry is stationed. I live about 150 miles south in San Antonio. Todos mis mejores deseos por tu exito en el ejercito, amigo. (I presume you know some Spanish, even though a lot of Hispanics lose it and some never learn any).