The Permaculture Orchard: Beyond Organic - Fall 2014 update
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Following the release of the film The Permaculture Orchard: Beyond Organic in June 2014, we've received many comments and questions. A year after shooting the film, we come back with a short video update to address some of those. To discover the full-length film, visit www.permacultur...
Subjects covered in this video include :
- honey locust as a nitrogen fixer
- other recommended nitrogen fixing trees
- plastic much, proof of concept
- using nut trees in the permaculture orchard
- over-pollination and alternating production years
- animals in the permaculture orchard
- vole damage and using tree guards
- multi-grafted trees, yay or nay?
- the u-pick, membership system
- using plants from other hardiness zones
- making a profit in the early years of the orchard
- Egyptian walking onion propagation
- other fruit options for warmer climates
This orchardist is quite knowledgeable. He seems to know the role of most creatures in his yard.
My grandparents just didn't know that much stuff, even with supposedly receiving tips from their parents etc.
Thanks to the internet, more and more people will know better methods for agriculture.
For those who are interested.... the mulch needed to establish a system like this can be produce on-site in about 90 days- by growing and harvesting an annual grain before it seeds (or after harvest), or a cover crop, ideally a multi-species mix. Again, it should be cut or crimped prior to seed formation.
Subsoil plowing along contours (or just off contour, as in keyline design) will give the young trees and companion plants a tremendous boost. My guess is that this would likely exceed the benefit seen with your use of plastic. (Our experience with plastic included issues with anaerobic zones being formed under the plastic.) The keyline approach opens up compacted soil, gets air and water down into the deep root zone. (Turning over of the soil is NOT recommended as it causes too much disruption to soil life. Instead, deep groves are cut into the soil with minimal disturbance)
You probably already know about this technique, but others reading this may not.
Everything has a context. Our very sandy soils are extremely well aerated, do not hold any water and are excessively well drained. No compaction, no need to subsoil or use keyline on our farm. We have dug up taproots 6' long with just a screwdriver digging at the surface. We aim to have a hole for perennials every 1', beyond the tree and shrub holes, so there is lots of air. If your context is clay there are a whole set of constraints and advantages associated with it that require other approaches.
This update was great. I keep coming back to it as reference material as I build my own permaculture orchard.
I am in the beginning of making an orchard in Sweden, with about 3 ha of land, forest and a small stream. and many wild animals. I will learn from your lessons and all of you. Thanks
How is your orchard doing, Thanh?
Interesting - thank you! Have three small apple trees - lost most of our first crop last year to bugs and birds. This year I thinned the fruit to one or two per cluster of blossoms, and kept them covered with homemade bags out of sheer curtain and old sheets (used yarn to tie the tops). The bugs started when the fruit was still tiny, so I used small bags at first then made bigger ones. The Golden Delicious had the most fruit - about half of them (the single ones) grew to a huge size with no blemishes and no bird damage...
You mulched the orchard in the beginning but stopped and the grass grew back..you need to keep the mulch around the trees until a closed canopy
Thanks for the great update! We too are still learning, after 35 years making a living from our organic orchard as well as the successes and "major learning opportunities" during conversion of a small piece of the mature orchard to an agroecolgy/permaculture system since 2012. We had more than 30 years of living mulch soil fertility, so plastic was not needed to suppress vegetation competition. Disease and insect problems have not been an issue; predator/parasite numbers are very high at Woodleaf farm. Our on-farm studies show us that ground-dwelling predators (spiders and ground beetles) are key to Codling moth and oriental fruit moth suppression on apples and peaches. We have pruned to cut back on fruit production, but we still thin a lot to get the premium fruit quality we need for our markets. However, we really don't mind since it goes back to the soil, recycles nutrients, and allows us to remove insect or disease damage so we don't have to "manage pests" with organic-certified sprays. You have inspired me to pull all our photos, video, and data over the past 4 years together to make the Forest Garden video I have been thinking about for more than a year. Thanks for sharing your gift of curiosity and eyes of awe! I look forward to more updates.
+AgrarianDreams Hi agrarian is your video out? I would love to see what you have done. It does not need to be perfect just representative. You seem to have a good grasp of insect control without sprays. Consider adding fruiting shrubs under the trees, they add to the yield and diversity.
You can actually grow kiwis. Just not the normal fuzzy ones you are used to. They are called Hardy Kiwis and can survive up to -30 degrees.
"We get questions on nuts why are there no nuts...We've got nuts....we went nuts on nuts!
Love this guy :)
Thank you so much for the update! Your video encouraged my wife and I to move out of the suburbs and sign on a ten acre parcel today! I also really appreciate you showing the difference between plastic and bare ground. As with everyone here, I'm not very keen on using plastic, but I'm also very familiar with weed pressure on a small scale. When you multiply the effort I spend weeding a small garden by hundreds to get to larger scales, it is impossible.
So I would love to hear if others have any suggestions on plastic alternatives. The only thing that I have heard recently is grow alfalfa in the areas between trees, cut that, and use that as a thick mulch. But you still need to find a source for thousands of yards of mulch in the first year.
Love the kitten chasing during the reel. Thanks for the update guys!
Thank you! :) You are the best!!!
Great attitude! That's the way. Thanks!
I love the little kitty at the end!
me to(:
Thanks, trying to work some of that into my backyard. Thanks again, 35 miles south of Saint Louis Missouri
very interesting and informative video. I love this kind of video. Thank you for your honesty by showing your successes and failures.
Black walnut creates toxicity from its oil, called juglone, which is in every part of the plant. Although a large number of plants are tolerant of juglone, many plants cannot mature within the trees' environment. Just a thought.
Excellent.
Thanks for the update, and answers!
I think it is great you are using the Honey Locust. It is a more primitive tree, so the fixation is lower than black locust, but the mortality rates are far lower. Honey Locust is is far more reliable than Black Locust. And the beans are big enough to harvest and feed to poultry and hogs.
Clover is a good nitrogen fixer and the bees love it 😃 sorry, but don’t like the plastic... best to use wood mulch
this is my inspiration
I think you will enjoy Morag Gambles UA-cam video on how she prepares no dig gardens around her place.
Great video!
'Permaculture orchard' seems like a contradiction, as orchards are typically near-monocultures, with one crop in rows, plus some kind of groundcover (grasses) between the rows... with a lot of labor and rescue chemicals necessary to make it work. What you are doing is quite a bit different! Thank you for sharing your experiences in orcharding 'outside the box'.
Can't you grow hardy kiwi, or arctic kiwi in your zone?
Have you tried, or considered, hogs (or young pigs) to pick up dropped fruit and nuts? A grazing-type pig with a short, upturned snout could also help mow the grassy aisles, and don't typically dig, though they need to be moved along like any other animal to make their impact beneficial, and not harmful. They are easily trained to the portable electric net fencing.
Love the gypsy jazz swing music in the video. What song is that around the 7-1/2 minute mark?
Fantastic. The film is awesome.
I wonder if the large amount of bee hives caused the over-pollination for the fruit trees. You said in the last video that you went from 4 to 25 hives. Interesting to think about.
You are right. We will be testing running the orchard without honey bees in 2017. Once the habitat is diverse there is an abundance of native bees that become established and there is little need for honey bees.
Hi Stefan, nice to hear from ya. I would still have some beehives on the property, it seemed 4 or 5 would be good amount for the amount of land you have. Love your videos, I'll probably use them in a class sometime!
I've been trying to start kiwi from seed nothing yet, but I don't quit that easily.
+Anastassio Balcorta Kiwi is a very regenereting plant, take a piece of bruch of two years, put in the ground and it will be a new plant!
+marcella criscuoli will give it a try !
+Anastassio Balcorta Kiwi makes a delicious wine and only takes 6 months from start to finish with a very grape wine taste.
wait, you have a second channel? what made you start the second channel?
i have so many questions now!
i'm just going to subscribe to this channel for good measure.
please post more!!!!
really like your style of educating us...got some wonderful tips from you. great info! where are you? NY state?
+Ildiko Mester 10 minutes north of the border. Straight up from Malone NY in Cazaville, Quebec. www.miracle.farm
How effective is plastic mulch according to u ??
plastic not good; how is it organic with that plastic cover? whe plastic decomposes, it gets in the ground. Are you sure to replace it on time?
i love farming
Great video. I got lost with the plastic though. I don't understand what the plastic does to accelerate the growth of the orchard over adding compost. Could someone explain how it works?
traps moisture, acts as a mulch alternative(moisture and frost), smothers grass/weeds from competing with trees for resources. Probably a few other things too, but those are the off-the-top-of-my-head list.
Lars Hildebrandt does water go through the plastic?
+Lars Hildebrandt try burying the edges instead of rocks or earth staples. There are mulch bed layers that can lay more than 10 acres per day. They can be rented from the same companies that sell plastic mulch. That is the nicest way to get it done.
In Oklahoma the Ag Department has a grant program to come lay a limited amount of plastic rows for you. And some organic growers have purchased the tractor attachment. If you can ask around locally you may be able to find someone who will come do it for you at a reasonable price.
Note that there is a big difference between the plastic used for annual crops (thinner plastic white on one side and black on the other - reversible depending on the desired result) and what is typically used in planting blueberry or blackberry orchards (more of a woven fabric - not sure what it is made of, but agree that it will unravel if cut with a regular knife and end up with large holes = not optimum long term).
I would like to know what you do for deer? How do you keep them out, or do you even have a problem with them?
Amy plant a fence BEFORE you plant a fruit tree, at least in our area. We have a 5' fence and tree rows on each side of the fence on 3 sides of the orchard.
So, any good organic, naturally sourced ways to get the effect of the plastic? Maybe work with lots of ashes or black stone between rows to warm the soil?
+Old_Tree Chop and drop (repeated cutting back and dropping on ground of beneficial plants) ground covers like; beans, clovers, comfrey etc. would be the best but I think he wanted a "cleaner" look for the orchard. These plants would block out weeds and shade the ground just like plastic but also provide nutrients. IMO if you dont go all the way with permaculture you dont get all the benefits, it didnt look like there was much planted to accumulate nutrients or fix nitrogen other than trees which are only part of a larger system. Obviously the plastic would interfere with a chop and drop system. Also growing rows of nitrogen fixing trees on the higher side of an on countour swale, (not in straight rows) and putting your fruits on the lower side of it is always a great idea.
+Old_Tree we do use chop and drop on an orchard scale. We call it mow and blow. We mow the aisles and it blows onto the plastic. The reason there is not a lot of cover on the plastic is because the worms pull it under the plastic everywhere there is a hole in the plastic. The role of the plastic is not for heat but to keep down the grass. Grass and young trees don't do well together. Anything mulch related you can do to keep down the grass for 3-5 years is vital for the long term health and size of the tree.
Cardboard. And the worms love it.
Back 2 Eden Film
Nature uses leaves. I like to borrow leaves from the nearby woods and spread them
How do I watch the movie? Can you show me a link?
I’ve made my living running and operating three fruit farms in southern Ontario. At the risk of sounding critical do you actually make your full time income off this farm? On video to me it looks like an abandoned neglected orchard. In your video I see so much open ground in your rows and trees that don’t look like they have ever been pruned. We don’t waste an inch of our land and trees pruned to produce fruit with size and colour and also helps air flow to control rot. My family’s been farming fruit for three generations and I’ve never seen an orchard like this. Bottom line is we have to provide a living for our families and the families of our employees and I can’t see it doing it your way
Bob Ivanski He’s trying to follow the natural, permaculture method of farming. Planting companion plants near fruit trees, etc.
D I’ve got a degree in agriculture I know what he’s doing.
Bob Ivanski I’m VERY happy for you -:) I’m just getting started back into growing on my property, after 20 years away from it and I had barely gotten my feet wet the first time time around. We have a handful of established fruit trees by after watching his movie the Permaculture Orchard and studying many other permaculture grower’s methods, I was really looking forward to planting some additional fruit trees and growing all of them strictly using organic materials. Do you feel then that it would be virtually impossible to raise a successful orchard without using traditional commercial methods? I completely understand what you mean about the pruning. Thank you for this.
D D do you mean you want to grow fruit organically as your main source of income? And if you don’t mind what area of the country do you live in
Bob Ivanski Thank you for responding. Our first priority is to grow enough fruit for a family of six, without purchasing it from outside sources. Want to grow enough to can or freeze to have throughout the year. Our goal is, if we’re successful enough at that, to gradually move into small scale commercial growing. As I mentioned, I’ve had some(but not nearly enough!)experience with fruit trees and shrubs. We live in Southern Indiana.
Is there a 13th principle in permaculture ?
You look like my poppy!!!
No matter what benefits plastic cover will give you, it should never be used and it is one of the things we are trying to avoid with permaculture
+Julio Palomino you are right. I would love to know of a technique that takes less time and effort. What have you done on an acre or more scale that has worked better or as well with less work and no soil disturbance?
Not these crops but I now roller crimp the tall grassy strips in the orchard in June and July. Works well and I don't have to till, smooth, seed or plant anything. It's easy to add work but focus on avoiding work, not neglecting, just doing things that don't require extra work.
Great idea. But I wonder if you have tried using herbivores and/or omnivores like the chickens, to move through these areas to mow and trample the tall grassy areas. Sheep might be a good fit for this, and their dung disappears in less than a week, (in reasonably moist regions).
Then again, there may be something to be said in favor of 'neglect'. Mark Shepard of New Forest Farm, likes to use what he calls the 'STUN' method: "shear, total, utter neglect". (With the plants on his farm, not the animals!) You already know about his farm, I'm sure, but for viewers who do not, they can search for his videos here on UA-cam, or read his book, 'Restoration Agriculture'.
The name is not coming to mind, but there is another operation that uses eco-agriculture techniques around a orchard operation in California - with no sprays, chickens and goats grazing under the trees, etc. Interestingly, they allow the goats to prune their trees for them, including climbing up and keeping the inside of the canopy open by browsing. This is done only with their mature trees, obviously. They have an old olive grove, and a number of other tree crops, along with grassfed meats (they use sheep for mowing, and I think they also offer beef), and pastured poultry and eggs.
Their products are also direct marketed to the public.
Julio Palomino perhaps starting with plastic because of the benefits but after a few years once the trees make their own mulch than remove the plastic.
Do you eventually remove the plastic for good once the trees are established?
No, that's a make work project. Avoid make work projects. We will remove the plastic when we remove the trees in maybe 100 years.
Roger that. I want to avoid plastic at all costs. I've got a free labor source of about 70 (this is a school project), and close to unlimited access to woodchips, so labor and woodchips for now and the future are not an issue. Outside of getting woodchips and then spreading them, what were major issues you ran into using them as a cover?
Sounds like you have an ideal situation. The major issue I ran into was a soil that has become very alive. Our soil ate through 6 inches of wood chips over the winter under the snow. So use 12 inches of wood chips at a go. However you will be limited in what other plants you can grow but your trees will do really well.
So do nut trees benefit from the same training system you use on your fruit trees? [Obviously you don't have personal results yet, but I'm wondering if you may have heard of research in this regard.]
+Ryder Hughes yes it will work well on nut trees. Especially walnut. MAFCOT group in France have done great work with many tree crops including walnut.
hi sir
why on earth would you crop the flowers!
Flowers attract pollinators and other beneficial insects. Plus some flowers are edible.
en espanol cocinemos juntos
searching for the film. im a bit behind?
he was running from a kitten(:
Do you cut your trees when too large, for easier harvesting?
We cut down the thorny honey locusts. We prune the rest to limit their height.
where in the heck r the bees
Permaculture = Orchard + flowers - inter row mowing ....
I cant tolerate this guy. He's so smug