Hard or Soft? Are Magic Systems in Gaming Either? ft. Cultist Simulator
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2023
- Magic systems, Sanderson's Laws and the hard-soft magic divide is a popular talking point on UA-cam. I like it. But it gets a lot more complex when games are discussed. Or interactive media in general. At least so I think. Here are my thoughts and an example of one magic system that I consider not only excellent, but also interesting design-wise. Thanks for watching!
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Can you do a follow up on The book of hours, the cultist simulator "sequel"
I'm 2/3rds into my first playthrough and already have half a script.
It's going to be a case study of a different game design element than magic systems though, but it's definitely coming :)
@@GamesDeconstructedYeh BoH doesnt have magic, atleast like CS. Narratively some skills are used to perform rituals, but the Librarian isnt a magician. (actually the room unlocking mechanic softimplies the librarian generally needs the help of other people for both magic and more physical tasks)
i once learned from a different source that perpendicular to the axis of hard and soft magic systems is the axis of rational and irrational magic systems
if hard magic systems are defined by players or readers knowing >50% of the magic system's mechanics and vice versa for soft magic systems
then rational magic systems are defined by how the magic follows a set of rational rules and so the rest of its unknown contents can be somewhat extrapolated and predicted from the parts that are revealed and given, while irrational magic systems are defined by how there is no way to extrapolate the rest of the magic systems mechanics/content when given only part of it
(ex: superman's magic system is hard because we know everything about his powers, but irrational because super strength, flight, laser eyes, frost breath, and a weakness to kryptonite all have no explainable connections to each other thus knowing he has super strength does not lead the watcher to deduce that he also has laser eyes, but his laser eyes and all other powers and mechanics are fully revealed)
i think cultist simulator is an excellent soft but rational magic system whose rules can somewhat be extrapolated based on previous knowledge even though our knowledge of the magic system will in lore-canon never reach >50%
I love this! Considering magic as a two-axes system definitely opens up space for some brand new conversations. Kinda wish I knew about this before I made the video :D
@@GamesDeconstructed glad to have shared good info! twas really eye opening for mi as well when i first learned about it, and also immediately made mi gravitate towards soft, rational magic systems whenever i consumed narratives or daydreamed new ones cuz ive always felt hard magic systems lacced that sense of discovery and hidden massiveness of the world, and irrational magic systems outside of cosmic horror genres felt uninteresting to mi hahaha
I was thinking similarly about the magic system in CS. It starts out soft, and it becomes hard as you understand the meaning of each aspect.
But it's only true for your fisrt couple playthroughs. As in all rougelikes knowledge about the game and its machanics are key. So If you managed to fulfil one desire of finish one cult aspect playthrough, you will have understanding on how to generally approach other paths as well.
There's also the exeptional writing and lore which if you read carefully and apply a bit of crazy people logic (even without the tooltips) you can figure out what does what.
And the ingenious of the colouring 10/10.
I just picked up the game recently and I think its getting to me
Absolutely, the "crazy people logic" is my favourite part. It feels awesome when the mechanics follow your instinct of something making sense diegetically.
Have you tried Book of Hours yet? I just picked it up and it's a peculiar feeling of playing CS for the first time again.
Not going into more detail in case you haven't tried it :)
@@GamesDeconstructed I want to at least play all the dlc of CS first, master the game a bit. But Book of Hours also looks sick, please no spoilers as I will go into that one even more blind that CS.
@@sued_ Absolutely, I wouldn't reveal more than the first 30 minutes maybe. It's an exploration based game like CS, so I wouldn't want to spoil anyone's fun.
I'm going to sound like an idiot, but what's CS? I'm guessing that you aren't talking about Counter Strike.
@@shai5651 I am referring to Cultist Simulator in this one
I was intrigued by Cultists Simulator. I am obsessed with Book of Hours.
I've beaten it once, waiting for more content before another run I think. Good fun for sure!
thb even when you "know" how magic works in CS It's still extremely esoteric and not really "hard" from the perspective of the characters, you are combining things and knowledge that somehow is connected to the vague idea of struggle and silence to revive a corpse, but that can be done in nigh endless ways
What I also would've liked to see is Pokémon. Nobody is talking about Pokémon being an in-between of hard and soft magic system. It's like a semi-hard system during fights but soft system when traversing the overworld (and in other media, like the anime).
Never thought about Pokémon powers as a magic system but that makes perfect sense now that you've mentioned it. What an interesting idea
I can't believe you have so few subscribers. Great video! I see a Cultist simulator video - I watch
Thank you! Hope the first thing changes eventually :D
Phenomenonal video! This is one of my absolute favorite games and I think you approached it in a really interesting way!
Something dawned on me while watching that, in my opinion, adds another layer to the soft to hard transition that the game pulls off. I cannot think of any other games that manage to so successfully "re-soften" so many elements of the magic system with each DLC. With how different the routes provided by each are. I guess the same could be said of the greater victories as well. To me it creates a sort of meta-narrative in which the player, after successfully doing a basic victory and moving on to either a DLC or greater victory, knows just enough about the magic system to truly understand the depths of your ignorance of it.
This may well have made no sense to anyone reading, but those are just my two cents!
You've for sure just gained a sub and I'll be watching your career with great interest!!
It makes sense to me reading! :D
The DLC characters are definitely an interesting consideration, bc they have different (in-universe) methods of interfacing with the magic systems. They definitely broaden the players understanding of how the magic of CS influences the world in it. All present some new interesting use of the Principles, and some even give you magic stuff right from the start.
And with the game mixing diegetic and non-diegetic elements so well, this influences the player's experience as well.
Good video, but uh, ORGANIZE YOUR CARDS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Really good vid man, thanks for making this!
Hahaha, I can make do in CS, but Book of Hours really made me appreciate a bit of card organization. Also book organization. And item organization. Thanks for the kind words!
I will never forget decoding a book and getting the Rite of Mother's Mercy, and text suggesting I could create undead with it. In that moment it all clicked and loe! I have created a shattered risen! All you need to know in Cult Sim is right there, before you, dug out by your own hands. And that's what charmed me most.
Aw yeah, that's exactly the feeling I'm talking about.
Book of Hours is great about this as well - so many gameplay related things are revealed or alluded to in cryptic lore blurbs!
@@GamesDeconstructed The coolest feeling was that I'd later use that same Rite to Ascend for a Forge victory and take along my Undead Beloved. We rise to the Mellary by Mother's Mercy, and she looks kindly on wounds. I also won a major victory soon after and I needed lv 14 Knock lore! She really liked me! Looking forward to trying Book of Hours next. Great video btw.
My theory of magic: All magic is hard magic. The idea of "soft" magic just means that the audience doesn't understand the rules. Within the context of a fantasy setting, the characters within that setting must understand magic in order to use it, thus it must follow some sort of rule, even if we, the audience, don't know what those rules are.
Also, the magic of Middle Earth is a hard magic. Gandalf has to follow rules, and some of these are made clear in the story. He claims to have once known all the spells of men, elves, and orc, so we know there are specific spells. He can't just do anything, he has to know the right spell. He also says that he can't just create flame. He has to have something to burn. So we know that spells have limitations.
Differentiating the understanding of magic a character (esp. POV character) and the audience has is an additional wrinkle of complexity within this theory, to be sure.
As far as I use it, the soft/hard magic split is directly based on how magic appears to the audience. Gandalf's perception of spellcasting would probably be a lot harder than the reader's. Still, the quasi religious nature of LOTR magic and it being difficult to quantify still lend a good deal to it's softness even in Gandalf's eyes.
@@GamesDeconstructed a lot of people define hard and soft magic as a sort of definition of how well-defined are the rules of that magic system, but I recently realized that ALL magic has to have rules, otherwise the characters would not be able to use it reliably. So, credit to you for defining it based on audience perception. Still, I'd argue that LotR magic is harder than most people think.
My 2 favorite magic systems in gaming (gameplay-wise) are in Cultist Simulator and Songs of Conquest
Haven't played Songs of Conquest, I'll check it out
I do wonder if the idea of hard and soft starts to fall apart in games since they are so interactive. As with real life magic, there are rules to it, but its rarely concrete. Take for example Ultrakill, does it have a magic system? Gabriel teleports and has celestial lances, and you can kill a boss using soap, but are all of those magic and/or what kind of magic system is that? Something similar can be seen with the Remedy games where there are rules and mana bars, but what is possible is unknown until you interact with it or meet someone familiar with it.
8:06 hi, I want to know which game's footage is this.
8:06 is Tiny Rogues :)
I recently begain playing CS and it is excellent.
Another game yet its ARPG with a good and unique combat and magic system is 'Undecember' the Korean game.
Huh, I'll take a look, thanks for the recommendation
Some games will relegate extranormal abilities to NPCs and antagonists. There is no mechanics the players directly use, the wizards and cyborgs and werewolves are something that happens to them. In a tabletop RPG, this still leaves one player who will have to understand and use these abilities. The DM.
NPC wizards can have a simple mechanical system for their magic. The DM can be given a sort of anti-fate points to spend on enemy magic, curses and stuff and be forced to economize with them. Either hinder the PCs in little trickles or have a lot of anti-fate to spend on some big wallop to the end.
A monster can be given a random table with abilities, and roll which one it uses at any given round, every ten-minute turn or daily. And I can decide that this is the interval at which it uses its powers, once a day it can invade the mind of a PC or ally and try to control them.
Of course the PCs are assumed to be proactive themselves and try to learn what they can of their antagonist, how the extranormal abilities work, their limits and how to subvert them. The entire crew can show up in insulated clothing and rubber boots. They can desecrate three altars and later find out this removed a few points of anti-fate.
I never finished CS 'cause I'm too dumb ngl 😂 but I love the lore and world-building
I got most of the normal endings, but not the NG+ ones. Yeah, the lore's top notch!
You are incredibly underrated
Honestly a bit concerning how often I'm called that :D. Thx so much though!
The real problem is that there are not too many problems that require magic to be solved in cultist sim...
Can't really talk about it too much without going into spoiler territory, but the endings and path to them provide a central problem requiring a magical solution.
Whether that central problem is compelling enough I'll leave for you to decide :)
Definitely hard 😉
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Pierwszy 🎉
8:45
Ahh. Dragon's Dogma, I've never seen a game that makes me you feel more like a powerful sorcerer than it.
I think it does make sense to talk about soft and hard magic in games, as a spectrum from narrative, thematic, or game balance constraints on one end to magic being an emergent property of a metamagic system that derives from a simple and deep underlying set of rules on the other.
This doesn't just apply to magic either. Consider, say, Star Wars Battlefront versus Children of a Dead Earth? The sci fi elements of one are arbitrary based on plot and game design. The sci fi elements of the other are almost entirely emergent from a set of physical laws (in that particular case, very realistic ones).