My question is: did Frank compose this using serialism techniques, or was he just so insane that he came up with these patterns note for note? Frank we all miss you dearly, but luckily, we have so much of your music, you never really left us.
@@andygreen9673 Oh No was composed from a serialist technique. The whole melody gets used backwards with different rhythms. Zappa said he wrote lots of serialist music in high school and found that once he heard it, he realized how bad it sounded even though it was mathematically satisfying
Oh No is indeed a diatonic serial piece. For the orchestral work I’m almost certain that Frank did not adhere to traditional serialist techniques and preferred to build lines of music based on intervals, either the intervals between two voicings for harmonies or the intervals between two successive notes for melodies.
have great respect for all of those musicians. I also have had the opportunity to be instructed by one of them. I won't say whom. There are a lot of complex things in life. And just being complex is not an excuse to label it as art, or at least, beautiful art. This is best described with a term that is applicable to many of the older free form jazz bands... Mental Masturbation.
This is a piece of music composed by Frank Zappa called Mo 'n Herb's Vacation. If you don't like it, that's fine. I respect your opinion if you genuinely took time after listening to this piece to formulate one.
Yes I listened to it, and I'm all for alternative music, but... I'm confused as to whether or not this qualifies. I was brought here by 'Starless' - King Crimson.
soeffingwhat The whole thing, likely. There's a recording of Vinnie Colaiuta, Arthur Barrow, and Ed Mann playing this live in Poughkeepsie on UA-cam. I'd imagine Scott's part was basically the same as Arthur's.
Chris Hicks I know the whole thing, I meant did he actually have to learn the actual "lower" Clarinet Parts on the Bass? I've only heard this and one other version of this. Do you have the Link of the recording you mentioned?
Probably one of the hardest pieces of constructed music someone can play...Zappa was all about the upper limits he could compose with instruments....Listen to the depth of the polyrythms and the complex arrangements that even though sounding incongruent have an underlying structure....
New Complexity stuff is definitely harder than this. Zappa was very against impossible time signature changes and impossible tuplets in the same place. This is all in 4/4 and 3/4 - and when it's in either one of those time signatures it stays in it for a while. Likewise, if you look at something like Moggio, which is in different time every other bar, you find no tuplets.
@@smorrow Well, it's kinda pointless to write in odd times, when you're filling bars with tuplet subdivisions. The odd time stuff, for Frank, was to evolve grooves in those time signatures, which he did very well, as did his musicians. But I don't think he ever did these things just to make the song hard or complicated. That just what he heard in his head.
As per Chad to Robyn Flans in his December 1988 Modern Drummer interview (he is also on the cover): "hardest piece of music I ever had to learn to play".
@johnny albit : You sound like Joe's mom: "Turn it down, don't you boys know any nice songs? We have children sleeping here, he used to cut the grass!" Frank wrote like this on purpose, and actually I can't even write anything to rival it. Frank was into 'worthlessness!" (Lyric of 'Mr green Genes') You said 'Uber-nerd' but that kind 'relates to topics of fiction/fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities' but Frank went to Congress & in interviews he predicted, in great detail, while facing great opposition, the state that the US has fallen into currently. Quite Frankly!
I wish I could find the drum notation for this just so that I could see what it looks like. The Black Page is the most difficult piece I'll ever try to sightread. This is just bonkers.
Steve Vai tells a very funny story about this session. Search for "Steve Vai - Vinnie Colaiuta's Sight Reading" elsewhere on UA-cam (which is how I got here ...)
Watch the Drum Channel's special 2 1/2 hour video, The Drummers of Frank Zappa. Ralph Humphries, Chester Thompson, Ruth Underwood (ok, not drums with Frank but she is a percussionist extraordinaire), Terry Bozzio and Chad Wackerman. (Guess they couldn't get Vinnie to participate). Great video. You can see it on You Tube or buy it of you want. Chad said Mo's Vacation was one the hardest pieces by Frank he ever had to play. So when 5 of the greatest percussionists on the planet say the piece is amazing, I kind of defer to their knowledge and wisdom.
I have great respect for all of those musicians. I also have had the opportunity to be instructed by one of them. I won't say whom. There are a lot of complex things in life. And just being complex is not an excuse to label it as art, or at least, beautiful art. This is best described with a term that is applicable to many of the older free form jazz bands... Mental Masturbation.
Actually the first guy to drum this song was Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Vai told a story of him being so good at reading notes, he drummed it with one hand, pushing his glasses up with the other, and then eating sushi. No joke, Frank got so pissed off, due to he thought it was far too complex to just be played like that, he threw the sheets down and stormed out. Chad isn't bad, but I am sorry Vinnie is better.
About Colaiuta's ability to play Zappa's notoriously complex music and the complex style of polyrhythms, guitarist Steve Vai told the following story: He's one of the most amazing sight-readers that ever existed on the instrument. One day we were in a Frank rehearsal, this was early '80s, and Frank brought in this piece of music called "Mo 'N Herb's Vacation." Just unbelievably complex. All the drums were written out, just like "The Black Page" except even more complex. There were these runs of like 17 over 3 and every drumhead is notated differently. And there were a whole bunch of people there, I think Bozzio was there. Vinnie had this piece of music on the stand to his right. To his left he had another music stand with a plate of sushi on it, okay? Now the tempo of the piece was very slow, like "The Black Page." And then the first riff came in, [mimics bizarre Zappa-esque drum rhythm patterns] with all these choking of cymbals, and hi-hat, riffs, spinning of rototoms and all this crazy stuff. And I saw Vinnie reading this thing. Now, Vinnie has this habit of pushing his glasses up with the middle finger of his right hand. Well I saw him look at this one bar of music, it was the last bar of music on the page. He started to play it as he was turning the page with one hand, and then once the page was turned he continued playing the riff with his right hand, as he reached over with his left hand, grabbed a piece of sushi and put it in his mouth, continued the riff with his left hand and feet, pushed his glasses up, and then played the remaining part of the bar. It was the slickest thing I have ever seen. Frank threw his music up in the air. Bozzio turned around and walked away. I just started laughing.
"...And I saw Vinnie reading this thing. Now, Vinnie has this habit of pushing his glasses up with the middle finger of his right hand. Well I saw him look at this one bar of music, it was the last bar of music on the page. He started to play it as he was turning the page with one hand, and then once the page was turned he continued playing the riff with his right hand, as he reached over with his left hand, grabbed a piece of sushi and put it in his mouth, continued the riff with his left hand and feet, pushed his glasses up, and then played the remaining part of the bar. It was the sickest thing I have ever seen. Frank threw his music up in the air. Bozzio turned around and walked away. I just started laughing."
His isomelodies are reminiscent of serialism (see "Brent Clement's dissertation" on Google), he eschews something as intellectual and prescriptive as serialism itself though.
from his book. great read
Thanks for uploading. Only spotted recently that the opening is also in: "And it's wet t-shirt time again etc."
the beat drops at 3:56
Just compare this and "Dinah-moe Humm". Frank was such a versatile person.
Actually Conceptual Continuity
Brilliant! Totally cool.
The woodwinds sound as if they were recorded in the Uncle Meat sessions. Really weird.
Insgead i remember me the jingle 200 Motels..
Love to get a copy of that deum chart
My question is: did Frank compose this using serialism techniques, or was he just so insane that he came up with these patterns note for note? Frank we all miss you dearly, but luckily, we have so much of your music, you never really left us.
I do remember an interview were he says he did not like composing using serialism and that he had tried it and found the results boring.
Not enough quarter notes to be serialism
@@andygreen9673 Oh No was composed from a serialist technique. The whole melody gets used backwards with different rhythms. Zappa said he wrote lots of serialist music in high school and found that once he heard it, he realized how bad it sounded even though it was mathematically satisfying
Oh No is indeed a diatonic serial piece. For the orchestral work I’m almost certain that Frank did not adhere to traditional serialist techniques and preferred to build lines of music based on intervals, either the intervals between two voicings for harmonies or the intervals between two successive notes for melodies.
Chana Hanspal does videos analizing Zappa methods of compositions
Sometimes I hear structure in this.
have great respect for all of those musicians. I also have had the opportunity to be instructed by one of them. I won't say whom. There are a lot of complex things in life. And just being complex is not an excuse to label it as art, or at least, beautiful art. This is best described with a term that is applicable to many of the older free form jazz bands... Mental Masturbation.
wow, you liked your own statement of ignorance so much you posted it twice
What the fuck is this?
This is a piece of music composed by Frank Zappa called Mo 'n Herb's Vacation. If you don't like it, that's fine. I respect your opinion if you genuinely took time after listening to this piece to formulate one.
Yes I listened to it, and I'm all for alternative music, but... I'm confused as to whether or not this qualifies. I was brought here by 'Starless' - King Crimson.
Chris Hicks As a Bassist I would love to know what bits Scott Thunes Played for this. It was his Audition Piece for Zappa's Band.
soeffingwhat The whole thing, likely. There's a recording of Vinnie Colaiuta, Arthur Barrow, and Ed Mann playing this live in Poughkeepsie on UA-cam. I'd imagine Scott's part was basically the same as Arthur's.
Chris Hicks I know the whole thing, I meant did he actually have to learn the actual "lower" Clarinet Parts on the Bass? I've only heard this and one other version of this. Do you have the Link of the recording you mentioned?
I'll be whistling THIS on the way to work tomorrow
Shoenberg's postman finally appears!
It´s even better hummed
On my way to burger lane!
😂
Sounds easy
Vinnie was sight-reading it for the first time flawlessly. Unimaginable.
Chad not Vinnie
@@reedlanger5988 Chad…yes.
Sight reading…no.
Vinnie did sightread it at rehearsal in '80 while eating sushi.
@@hansvandermeulen5515 and fixed his glasses while turning the page and eating the sushi.
Whilst enjoying sushi
There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Zappa was from a different space-time continuum and he was just visiting us mere mortals.
Chad was 22 when he recorded this. unbelievable
Probably one of the hardest pieces of constructed music someone can play...Zappa was all about the upper limits he could compose with instruments....Listen to the depth of the polyrythms and the complex arrangements that even though sounding incongruent have an underlying structure....
New Complexity stuff is definitely harder than this. Zappa was very against impossible time signature changes and impossible tuplets in the same place. This is all in 4/4 and 3/4 - and when it's in either one of those time signatures it stays in it for a while. Likewise, if you look at something like Moggio, which is in different time every other bar, you find no tuplets.
@@smorrow Well, it's kinda pointless to write in odd times, when you're filling bars with tuplet subdivisions. The odd time stuff, for Frank, was to evolve grooves in those time signatures, which he did very well, as did his musicians. But I don't think he ever did these things just to make the song hard or complicated. That just what he heard in his head.
Thank you for this- it is my favorite Zappa work. I hope the ZFT releases the synclavier version someday.
there's a synclavier version? I'd love to hear that
Definitely not in a straight jacket or with his eyes closed but I know for a fact he ate sushi.
I get this reference
More statistical density. The Other Black Page.
The Blacker Page
The Vantablack Page
As per Chad to Robyn Flans in his December 1988 Modern Drummer interview (he is also on the cover): "hardest piece of music I ever had to learn to play".
Ed Mann, Zappas percussionist, said this was the most difficult piece he ever played.
And Colaiuta sight-read it while eating sushi. 😂
@@YogsenForfoth RIP Ed Mann.
@@dollhaus1
Yes, rest in peace Ed Mann. He was an incredible percussionist. Thanks for commenting on this post you made 13 years ago! 😂
It amazes me that Wackerman is never on any Top 10 drummer lists!
He's in mine 😊 In fact he was my personal favourite Zappa drummer. Certainly the longest serving, which says a lot.
@johnny albit : You sound like Joe's mom: "Turn it down, don't you boys know any nice songs? We have children sleeping here, he used to cut the grass!" Frank wrote like this on purpose, and actually I can't even write anything to rival it. Frank was into 'worthlessness!" (Lyric of 'Mr green Genes') You said 'Uber-nerd' but that kind 'relates to topics of fiction/fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities' but Frank went to Congress & in interviews he predicted, in great detail, while facing great opposition, the state that the US has fallen into currently. Quite Frankly!
Here it is the Vinnie Colaiuta recording: /watch?v=u4QqyuWQ7-s
Steve Vai brought me here.
Eu também!
Same here. Lol
me too
I wish I could find the drum notation for this just so that I could see what it looks like. The Black Page is the most difficult piece I'll ever try to sightread. This is just bonkers.
ua-cam.com/video/19WBjD0X23c/v-deo.html
Steve Vai tells a very funny story about this session. Search for "Steve Vai - Vinnie Colaiuta's Sight Reading" elsewhere on UA-cam (which is how I got here ...)
Watch the Drum Channel's special 2 1/2 hour video, The Drummers of Frank Zappa. Ralph Humphries, Chester Thompson, Ruth Underwood (ok, not drums with Frank but she is a percussionist extraordinaire), Terry Bozzio and Chad Wackerman. (Guess they couldn't get Vinnie to participate). Great video. You can see it on You Tube or buy it of you want. Chad said Mo's Vacation was one the hardest pieces by Frank he ever had to play. So when 5 of the greatest percussionists on the planet say the piece is amazing, I kind of defer to their knowledge and wisdom.
I have great respect for all of those musicians. I also have had the opportunity to be instructed by one of them. I won't say whom. There are a lot of complex things in life. And just being complex is not an excuse to label it as art, or at least, beautiful art. This is best described with a term that is applicable to many of the older free form jazz bands... Mental Masturbation.
Is Aynsley in it?
Colaiuta toco esto comiendo sushi
kinda reminds me of something henry cow would do
Actually the first guy to drum this song was Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Vai told a story of him being so good at reading notes, he drummed it with one hand, pushing his glasses up with the other, and then eating sushi. No joke, Frank got so pissed off, due to he thought it was far too complex to just be played like that, he threw the sheets down and stormed out. Chad isn't bad, but I am sorry Vinnie is better.
About Colaiuta's ability to play Zappa's notoriously complex music and the complex style of polyrhythms, guitarist Steve Vai told the following story:
He's one of the most amazing sight-readers that ever existed on the instrument. One day we were in a Frank rehearsal, this was early '80s, and Frank brought in this piece of music called "Mo 'N Herb's Vacation." Just unbelievably complex. All the drums were written out, just like "The Black Page" except even more complex. There were these runs of like 17 over 3 and every drumhead is notated differently. And there were a whole bunch of people there, I think Bozzio was there. Vinnie had this piece of music on the stand to his right. To his left he had another music stand with a plate of sushi on it, okay? Now the tempo of the piece was very slow, like "The Black Page." And then the first riff came in, [mimics bizarre Zappa-esque drum rhythm patterns] with all these choking of cymbals, and hi-hat, riffs, spinning of rototoms and all this crazy stuff. And I saw Vinnie reading this thing. Now, Vinnie has this habit of pushing his glasses up with the middle finger of his right hand. Well I saw him look at this one bar of music, it was the last bar of music on the page. He started to play it as he was turning the page with one hand, and then once the page was turned he continued playing the riff with his right hand, as he reached over with his left hand, grabbed a piece of sushi and put it in his mouth, continued the riff with his left hand and feet, pushed his glasses up, and then played the remaining part of the bar. It was the slickest thing I have ever seen. Frank threw his music up in the air. Bozzio turned around and walked away. I just started laughing.
This whole who was better discussion is relative,zappabands with chad are tighter than with vinnie
"...And I saw Vinnie reading this thing. Now, Vinnie has this habit of
pushing his glasses up with the middle finger of his right hand. Well I
saw him look at this one bar of music, it was the last bar of music on
the page. He started to play it as he was turning the page with one
hand, and then once the page was turned he continued playing the riff
with his right hand, as he reached over with his left hand, grabbed a
piece of sushi and put it in his mouth, continued the riff with his left
hand and feet, pushed his glasses up, and then played the remaining
part of the bar. It was the sickest thing I have ever seen. Frank threw
his music up in the air. Bozzio turned around and walked away. I just
started laughing."
Frank didn't get pissed off. He was totally blown away.
I wish all of the London Symphony Orchestra tracks were recorded like this
He is a legend as well. But in my eyes Vinne Colaiuta is the best I've seen
Yeah - but still... a fantastic performance by Chad! (And David Ocker...)
I’ll say this about Zappa, If he isnt a genius then he’s a complete fraud?
If you all have a moment, watch the vid of Steve Vai tell the story of Vinnie sight reading this piece whilst eating sushi. It's hilarious.
Love Zappa, but it sounds like Mo had a rough time of it.
Schoenberg says hallo to Stravinsky
Sounds like Looney Tunes cartoon.
Is this in real time?! It's far far faster than the LSO version!
im gonna hear the version with vinnie too 😂
His isomelodies are reminiscent of serialism (see "Brent Clement's dissertation" on Google), he eschews something as intellectual and prescriptive as serialism itself though.
First thing when you entered a room to audition for zappa as a drummer in the 80s was to play this from sight reading.
Fortunately for the egos of 80's drummers, Chad Wackerman held the seat from 81 onward. :)
Aw hell no
I can’t help but think, sushi
Are there any recordings with Colaiuta?
Like... here in youtube?
Chad Wackerman told me about this ten years ago. Did someone break into Zappas Vaults? Where did you find this?
I took drum lessons from Chad years ago and he told me they had to MEMORIZE this stuff. Seriously
Bozzio himself admitted this one was out of his league.
Scott Thunes says there's also a Synclavier version.
I had it. It was a flexidiscy thingy in a magazine for drummers. Humans could purchase the mag as well.
Great stuff
People are now doing their PHDs on Zappa's Music. Mo and Herb's Vacation is one cited and studied as one of the most difficult and complex pieces.
[ sic ]
choppin' this!
Unfreakinbelivable!!!!
Great playing!
I heard either Justin Bieber or Adele are gonna do a cover of this….
It takes a few listens, but it's worth it.
You spelled bassoon wrong in the description btw
great post
Bad. ASS!
Easy drum part right? :( :( :( I quit.
@bjc2
Thank you from France.
Amazing!!! Thanks for sharing with us!!!
Very nice. Thanks!
doot doot
soooo great!!!
Sounds like he wrote this in 5th grade during recess.