Best Evidence for Theism | Benjamin - Florida | Talk Heathen 03.17
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2019
- Talk Heathen 03.17 for April 28, 2019 with Eric Murphy, Jamie Boone, & A Boat Load of Guests.
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Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
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We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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NOTES
TalkHeathen is the official channel of Talk Heathen. "Talk Heathen" is a trademark of the ACA.
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One of my favorite Richard Feynman quotes,
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.”
*Stephen Land* I hadn't heard that one, it's a good'un.
Stephen Land
Such a great quote! I think it represents the whole body of natural sciences! The fact that there are still questions left to answer means that science has yet some place to grow - so it’s actually a good thing for every scientist that lives today! But for some religious people this somehow devalues science and all the discoveries that have been made so far! (Something similar to: “Oh, you don’t know? Science is useless then! The only correct answer is god!”) I hope people will eventually stop doing that...
David Parry
Well to be specific it was not the “USA” that “generated” him but the “Jews”...
most of the scientists that have some impact on physics were and still are usually born from Jewish and Russian families, it seems!
I’m not gonna follow this strange almost racist fact with anything or someone might suspect me in actually being racist... Still very interesting fact though!
Positing a hypothetical without any evidence to suggest your hypothesis deserves examination
Science.
Because figuring stuff out is better than making stuff up.
Tolkien would disagree.
@@Waltham1892 Tolkien never put a case for believing in the ubelievable, and he openly accepted that his stories in his books were fiction, unlike theists.
@@Ozone280 Tolkien's work is not fiction, he is our prophet!
Praise be the Valar and the Lords of the West!
@@Waltham1892 ...
@The Wizard of Whatever had to happen sometime, right?
Paulogia: "It could have started with energy but we don't know"
Benjamin: "I don't understand therefor god"
Isn't that an insanely arrogant viewpoint? "I don't get it, so god." As if to say "I know everything knowable so anything I don't know must be unknowable."
I love the expression on Eric's face when he says, "No, that's me making a statement and not backing it up." Classic.
14:38 "I would rather have something than nothing" It reveals someone who doesn't care about truth.
"I'm offering an explanation and you're not, therefore I am right." Is HORRIBLE logic!
Theists spend a LOT of time talking about giving evidence, but no time actually showing any evidence.
Evidence. Witness. Testimony. Truth. Judgement. Lotsa court words.
"This shit is serious, true, and important."
But, to be fair, court is probably derivative of it, not vv.
I have never read any book less moral than the bible
Southern Alberta definitely is the "Texas of Canada." Such a relief to see there is at least one consistent logical thinking person in that place.
Why do all of these theistic people call in claiming they have evidence never give any evidence??
+ Robert Preston
I think that one of the reasons that theistic people desperately want to prove that their own version of god exists, is that they fear that if they do not try to, their god would kick their arses for not standing up for him/her/it.
@- Seems to be the case which every episode I watch
Tomorrow could be the day! I watch just to be there when god shows up on TH or AXP.
God has got some serious explaining and apologizing to do.
@@Whiskey.T.Foxtrot Thats for sure
Bummer. I guess we'll have to wait another week for conclusive evidence for god. 😂
If morality requires a "moral law-giver", then that excludes using the god of the Bible, as that deity is a selfish, immoral monster.
I was a former atheist. Then I welcomed the FSM into my stomach.
Communyumm.
Amen
I love to see all the atheism channels coming together! Extended universe!
AEU
the laws of physics don’t break down at the point of singularity, our understanding of it does. this is a common mistake but a crucial one.
E R L so do you think that the laws of physics dont break down at the point of singularity or that they do am not sure which one is the one you believe please make it plane by telling me
Not just our understanding but our ability to investigate. It's at least possible that the laws were different pre-expansion since the conditions may have been different. We can't know what those conditions actually were so we can't understand.
Is that about right?
Best evidence is not the same as "I just think there must be"
It really sucks when their "best evidence" is also a failure. :p
That was very good- Paulogia is as logically erudite as Matt D. but without the short temper!
Peter Tauvers yeah I’ve noticed lately that Dillahunty seems fairly irritable as of late. I don’t know what’s going on but it definitely makes it hard for me to watch. I think he’s got a keen mind and a quick wit but it won’t count for much if I can’t stand listening.
And the ego...
18:03 _"I'd rather have something than nothing"_
You may as well follow that statement up with, "... no matter how false that something can be proven to be."
What he's saying there is that even a bald-faced lie would be better than saying, "I don't know."
this guy also as a human has energy and hes making fun of the guy for beliving that god is energy how dumb can he get
@@josueolivas6109 Was someone making fun of someone else? I believe the disagreement centers around one person giving agency to energy without reason. We know humans exist. We see them every day. We can't say the same about gods.
Watching talk heathen alway feels like a deja vu. No matter what the point presented by the caller is, it always feels like I heard this a thousand times before.
Wow! So cool to connect Paulogia with a face. Also cool that these awesome youtubers are connecting.
Same here! Also didn't know Paulogia is from a similar part of the planet as me!
I don't understand why something supernatural is needed to explain the natural. The study of nature shows that every complex system is little more than a series of simpler systems working together, so how does it make sense to follow that path all the way to the quark and then say "well, the thing that makes the simplest things in the universe must of course be more complex than the entirety of the universe."
What? No!
Thanks to this notion of "specified complexity" which is literally an argument from ignorance. I don't see how "x" could have a function other than "y", therefore "x" was specified to do "y" (which is just smuggling intent into it)
Eric, your hair is amazing! 😊
I know the Hovinds are clowns but I STILL expected more than this from someone who works with them.
i disagree with you, the hovinds may or may not be clowns but it is true that they are deceiving people, they are pulling people down with them. and the worst thing is; they do not know the consequences of what they are doing. christianity, and any other religion, claims to know what they don't know, and when the masses discover their lies, the people who most likely knows, (and im pretty sure the hovinds know that there is no god, they are just making money by deceiving people) , twist the reality around saying that the people who discovers the lie of religion, the atheists, are the liars. we do not believe in a god because we discovered that there is no evidence and that people like the hovinds and ham, are simply preying on the gullible, most often kids, to be believers so when they grow up they become the next batch of money granting machine for these scammers.
@Stefan Dingenouts there may be a difference between being dishonest and arguing dishonestly, but he was definitely arguing dishonestly, feigning offense whenever he couldn't answer something and desperately changing the subject multiple times, making wild claims that he never intended to meet the burden of proof for, etc.
Paulogia rocking that new Drew Carrey beard look.
Paul comes across as such a nice guy.
When Paulogia said "I'm from Canada's Texas" my head popped up like a meerkat on alert.
I have _zero_ chill right now. He's only the third fellow atheist Albertan I've ever met/heard of, so I'm screeching like a fangirling banshee right now (the other 2 atheists were my mom and a coworker's husband).
You're not alone in Alberta. There's more. Many, many more. ;)
The gum ball analogy is actually too generous Ben isn’t just saying there’s an odd number (theism) he’s saying there’s 513
andyrihn1
I would say that even your position may be giving a bit too much ground away since it's a 50% chance that the number of gumballs is odd. I imagine that the odds of a creator deity existing is waaaaaay lower than that lol.
Andrew Curley Nobody ever said what the probability of the number being even or odd is, just the fact that it is either even or odd
@@andyrihn1 I meant no offense. I was just illustrating how the gumball analogy gives even more ground to theists than they deserve. I wasn't attempting to argue with you, and I agree with your point entirely. I was simply adding in my two cents.
Andrew Curley it’s all good. I was just countering that I don’t think the analogy gives as much ground as you implied
16:35 "I don't know" is WHY I left Christianity. I became comfortable with that acknowledgment and the rest just fell into place.
"I'm saying there is one energy that is responsible for this energy."
Go ahead and say it. The real point is how you demonstrate it. Just claiming it (and labeling it somehow as God) is unsubstantiated.
"Why is it illogical to say there is something that transcends all of existence?"
Because you state it as fact without evidence. Duh.
"If the universe is a closed loop, then what I'm saying is that there is a BEING that stands outside of that."
Oh, really!? WHAT IS OUTSIDE? That is, what defines "outside", and how do you know that?
Love this collab, Paul is one of my favorites.
This guy was at least willing to keep an open mind while sticking to his principles. Gotta respect that.
" ...the universe reflects design ...", really? Why do men have nipples? Why do people have an appendix? Doesn't seem like intelligent "design" to me.
Why do whales have small and useless hip bones detached from the rest of the skeleton? XD
I mean, if we are the special "chosen lifeform", why are we biological? Placing a truly sentient, intelligent mind within a titanium, nanotechnological body that can self-repair and retained the same senses we did would be better. We wouldn't have to worry about that whole "no sex unless you are married for some reason" crap, diseases wouldn't exist, we wouldn't die due to our body failing to replicate cells properly, etc etc etc.
If we are designed, we are truly amateur hour. Bad ideas upon bad ideas upon bad execution.
@The Wizard of Whatever
Clearly, God got his engineering and design degrees from the same place that Kent Hovind got his degree.
Gerald ODonnell keep in mind that the bible also says there was the fall but that doesnt mean god didn't keep some design or order AND THIS ORDER WAS ENOUGH FOR US TO LIVE AND ONE DAY DIE.SO HOWEVER WAY YOU WANT TO SPIN IT THIS DOESNT NESSARLY DISPROVE THE BIBLE.
@@josueolivas6109
The fun part about reality is that the bible doesn't need to be disproven... it needs to be proven.
And over two thousand years, with countless numbers of people trying, that is something that nobody has ever managed to accomplish... which, at this point, becomes logical to conclude is because it _can't_ be proven.
Caller stepped over "laws of physics break down". The physics of our universe operate on cause and effect. The physics of before/ourside our universe may not. Therefore it's silly to say there *had* to be a being to start the universe expanding.
3:13 into this video, and I can already use my mystical powers of prediction to say: Benjamin will offer no new evidence of the claims of christianity, and will in fact leave without having convinced anyone with any sense in their brain. Let's see how this goes...
Ha how does ben not cringe at his words coming out of his mouth? "I'd rather have an answer than not propose one" that thinking doesn't make you right and that's not hard to understand
I love the Gum Ball/Dice example.
I love Eric's hair.
Diggin' the host interaction! And the caller at least let a conversation happen. 👍
But the question I have is "Why do you want there to be a God?"
Haha I actually think that "what does he use it for? Why do you have to gender energy?" is a legit question... though the guy just dodged it lol
Love the gum balls analogy
It's illogical to say, "I don't know"? When you actually don't know?
i think an important point for theists to consider when trying to understand what physicists say about the “singularity” is that physics itself isn’t known to break down at that point, it’s our UNDERSTANDING of physics that does. as Paulogia correctly states, the only honest thing we can say about is that we don’t know.
Whenever they bring up "something came from nothing, so there is a god", we can tell them our universe is actually a poop of huge space worm that exist beyond time and space.
*Inhyup Kim* It was actually sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure ;
hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Green_Arkleseizure
Paulogia is one of my favorite content creators, but let's not ignore the fact that he screwed up the gumball analogy. The statement, "The number of gumballs is not odd," is logically equivalent to the statement, "The number of gumballs is even." The distinction that needed to be made is the one between knowledge and belief.
Personally like the zero energy universe hypothesis. Its a rather neat solution to: "where did the energy come from?"
You guys mangled the gumball analogy. The negation of even, not even, is in fact odd. The point is that if you don't believe that something is even it is not the same as believing that something is odd. Not believing a proposition is not the same as believing its negation.
We've been spoiled by the Atheist Experience. I find something to object to in every TH video T.T
@@TheDahaka1
Well, to be fair, the Atheist Experience stuff from way back when had problems too. They have just had many years to hone their craft, while these two are still relatively new at it. They will get there. Probably.
A local radio station had this contest
to see who could correctly guess the number of gumballs in some jar. I was off by three, but I still won the grand prize. That's right, a first class one-way ticket to Albuquerque.
I see what you did there Al;)
@@gabek1381 Just curious....before I posted the comment, I was debating changing Albuquerque to Austin. Do you think you still would have caught the reference?
@@GeneralZod99 I probably would have missed it without the proper city.
“You’re welcome” 😂
paulogia has the best voice!
Eric: Why are you gendering energy?
Caller: Is that a serious question?
Also Caller: I'd rather believe it's a figment of human imagination (read:God) and base my whole life around that than admit I don't know and keep searching for the actual truth.
Me: Is this a serious conversation...? 🤔🤔🤔
Heya! Another Albertian!
It boils down to creationists being terrified with not knowing.....they must have an answer and slipping in their lame 'god dunnit' is something they just cant resist (yet logic and reason is something they evidently must and do resist ).
*Banksyed* Yes, that's what it comes down to, same with FEs - they know they're right too.
Great seeing Paulogia.
15:55 added to the confusion, unfortunately, as "not odd" and "even" _are_ the same thing has 1 and 2-1 are the same. However, rejecting a claim and accepting it's negation are not the same thing if we (have to) take uncertainty into account.
That cord on Paulogia's shoulder is bugging me 😆
A year after this comment, that cord is also bugging me :)
Special pleading (there has to be a first cause, and it's a supernatural first cause).
More special pleading or argument from ignorance (a tree looks designed, therefor a supernatural designer).
A refusal to accept human reasoning (morality must have a supernatural source).
etc. etc. etc.
This is getting so tiring.
well what is the alternative stepphen land have you ever witnessed the creation.would you suggest a natural cause even though there was perhaps nothing.seeds come from trees but what do you do or what happens when none of those things exist or wherent to exist.athests are also presuoing a cause its just a matter of avaluting both sides.
@@josueolivas6109 An appeal to the supernatural is not a realistic or even a useful alternative. While I wasn't around to witness the start of the universe, first life on earth etc., no one else was either (including you). As there has never, ever been an actual, verifiable, properly documented, empirically verified supernatural event... ever, an appeal to a supernatural makes no sense. And as an explanation, if an explanation can be used to explain absolutely everything, it actually explains nothing.
I notice you said, "would you suggest a natural cause even though there was perhaps nothing". Maybe there was something. We simply don't know. Science has a very good explanation of everything about the universe we see around us from immediately after the big bang to now. What banged and what made it bang is not known. What preceded this is not known. Whether the universe we see around is is all there is or whether there are a multiverse of universes is not known.
As the late physicist and Nobel laureate Richard Feynman said, “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”
He also said, “The first person you should be careful not to fool is yourself. Because you are the easiest person to fool".”
@@stephenland9361 its not nessarly an appeal its a suggestion just so you know. i am considering the possibility am toying with it
That is creationism assert that something is rational and reasonable then defend it no matter how irrational, or unreasonable the truth and evidence demonstrate
Benjamin loves using the word logic but he doesn’t have an ounce of it to accompany his reasoning. He keeps going in special pleading loops
ham and eggs ham and eggs..good to "see" you Paul...
12:04 "You're welcome"
Paul messed up the explanation of the gumball analogy. The negation of there are an odd number of gumballs is that there are not an odd number of gumballs but the analogy is supposed to be about belief or knowledge that the number of gumballs is odd.
As far as we can tell, the universe is everywhere, with no edge and no outside.
It follows that all possible causes are within the universe.
Therefore it has no cause.
SET THEORY!
Game theory
Set theory
Math
game, set, match
Kyle and paulogia nice 👊
Lol Kyle killing it.
Here is my hypothesis, space and time and energy were the only things that existed, there were 4 types of energy, magnetic, weak and strong nuclear and gravitational energy and the reaction created the big bang
God might explain everything, but so does magic. So how do we go about figuring out which (if either) is true?
I was disappointed that no one posited the Universe farting Pixies as the cause.
Gods are magic.
mushrooms....mushrooms are how we decide
Paulogia is a step up for the show. He nails the problem with unfalsifiable arguments: Something that can do anything could have done... anything, so there is no possible observation we could make that couldn't be explained by it. Hence, is no and can not be any evidence for such a thing in our observations of the natural world.
Benjamin's hypothesis is as old as mankind itself. That's exactly how and why humans have created numerous mythological Gods throughout history--an easy, but irrational explanation for all of the unknowns!
Does the caller actually hear himself?
Prior to the big bang (given that may be a nonsensical phrase) and the expansion of space-time cause and effect was not necessarily in operation or operated in a manner we simply don't understand or even have any concept for, so any argument about the "cause" of the big bang is illogical.
There is also the issue that by the logic that the universe couldn't just exist without a cause can be applied to god to show that god could not exist without a cause. Or to put it another way: the singularity could be the first uncaused cause, presuming there even was (or needed to be) an uncaused cause.
The laws of physics don't breakdown when you get to the singularity, the laws as we understand them breakdown. It highlights a gap in our knowledge, and just because there's a gap doesn't mean you can shove god into it.
It seems that theists become so enamored of the Idea of a god explanation, that the wow factor of believing overwhelms their reasoning. This says more about the human imagination than anything else.
Prize for the least butt-hurt caller ever.
Ignorance is bliss :)
I didn't know Steve Bannon guested on this show...
2:19 oh yeah those plans
Look at the trees.
Yep. Them's some nice trees.
@@brucebaker810
I see Zeus in them there trees. Oh, wait, Allah. Wait. Speghetti. That is it! The Lord of Light. Wait...
Why would it be illogical to say there’s something that transcends space and time... cuz bro, we have absolute zero evidence or demonstration that’s even possible lol.
Woohoo, Paulogia! The moment I saw him I went :\ in sympathy. That's my "It's Paulogia!" face.
How was that special pleading?
Eric coukld print and sell some of those books of Eric although they are probably blank pages they would still sell to us fans
I know im not the only one that noticed that Kyle had on a dorag😂😂😂
is Paul's hands cold?
A being outside of the universe....talk about spewing out mindless crap...this just takes the cake. To be, is to be something, which by definition implies a universe and particles.
Great vid I love Paulogias voice no homo
Why say no homo? Afraid of being mistaken as gay? Why the fuck would you care?.... insecure?
Benjamin bases all his arguments on a woo-woo feeling in his tum-tum. Ironically the woo-woo is the only real and logical thing in his argument.
This call was embarrassing. I expected more from Florida, Benjamin! Lol
It seems that those people who argue for a supernatural cause for the universe are really demonstrating the workings of the human imagination. The concept of an all powerful, all knowing being is very appealing to some. They become so enamored of the idea that it clouds or confuses rational thoght. This is a product of our human imagination. That's what's at work here.
*Gary Baird* It's worse than that, it's human emotion.
Apologetics 101; Toss out unsubstantiated stuff and hope you don't get called on it. If called on it, carry on. Rinse and repeat.
"I think it's *logical* that..."
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
A hypothesis that explain everything actually explains nothing.
Eric's voice sounds almost identical to Matt Dellahunty's voice...
However, I just smoked my bong so maybe it's the weed making Eric's voice sound like Matt's.
An invisible sentient being my ass!!!
If there is a being outside of a closed loop then the loop isn’t closed or a loop.
It doesn’t matter how many inconclusive arguments you pile on; you’ll never reach a valid summit.
Quantum 'wierdness' re:virtual particles is a SUFFICIENT and natural cause for the expansion of the current presentation of the physical universe
Some people are satisfied that the least credible answer is a person.
We can detect gravitational waves from billions of light years away..........if "god" was so causual.....we should have detected by now.
So weird watching all those people interacting closely and even *gasp* touching each other!! Jan 2021
Paulogia is the man!
Host asks why he asked an incoherent statement Caller claims that is insulting rather than explain what he said. Dudes hammering his own nails into his cross.
14:40 "atheism doesnt supply me with all the answers, therefore god"