Agree with the pilots being at fault but why didn’t the controller include taxiway bravo in the clearance? It was 22R via alpha bravo not just alpha. So they just followed alpha till a runway.
If 22L was closed, why wasn't it indicated by the airport? Turning off runway lights and putting indicators at all taxi intersections of the closed runway would have helped. It reminds me of the accident where a commercial airliner tried to take off from a closed runway at night in bad weather and impacted the construction equipment that was on the runway. In that accident they also identified runway lights on the closed runway and lack of clear signage and barriers to indicate the runway was closed as contributing factors.
@reverse thrust They knew 22L was closed, but they thought they were on 22R. The fact that the runway lights were still on at 22L reinforced that misconception.
Absolutely right. If a highway is closed, the police always put barriers to block the on-ramps, because drivers will do anything. It seems obvious that an airport should do the same.
@@GoodLifeMedicine until someone leaves it on an active runway and it gets sucked up in gear or engine and causes a catastrophe There's signs all over. Literally just read the sign. 22L... is not 22C or 22R.
The student was not able to think of anything when getting clearances. You could hear the instructor saying every single word the student was supposed to be reading back. I think its a bit hard to learn that way. Was the student not yet capable of reading back a clearance?
His mind wasn’t ready for all the layers of info needed to get off the ground. I don’t fly, but I would practice the comm as much as anything so I can concentrate on the act of flying.
This student was a puppet mindlessly repeating what the CFI ventriloquist was saying with no understanding or situational awareness. Anyone who has learned to fly or even taken lessons has been there so I can't fault the student (you don't know what you don't know) but the CFI is another matter. Very poor judgement on his part.
@Susan Tees That pilot was too inexperienced to be aware of anything. WHY that CFI thought the student was ready to fly at night when he didn't even know how to communicate with the tower is beyond me. The CFI was completely to blame, as was the controller that wasn't paying attention to where his planes were.
22R via Alpha does not exist. Controllers fault first. Pilots did not confirm proper runway. Pilot's fault second. You are ultimately final authority of your actions.
22L via Alpha doesn't exist either. THAT is not the fault ATC made. ATC's major fault is not checking the cessna's position before issuing the t/o clearance.
you can blame the pilot for making the mistake you can blame the tower for being a bit confusing and then not noticing the mistake you can blame the cfi for having a clearly not ready pilot fly, and for not noticing the mistake you can blame the other aircraft that in an incident made one of the runways unavailable you can blame the airport for not marking the closed runway more clearly so i think that blaming one person specifically is just pointless, but definitely try to have ALL of these people learn from their mistakes so they dont happen again. im just glad these videos exist, they present all these factors and potential consequences very well
@@morganghetti "X" is used to indicate a closed runway. Even when the closure is temporary. I know this, because I lived near an airport. When the closed the runway, they put out lighted X's. Also, the runway lights don't provide enough light to work by, they use night suns for that, a type of bright light that shines in the ground. www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/publications/media/placemat%2020april09.pdf
@@erictaylor5462 if they couldn't spot a big sign saying 22L, not sure if they would have spotted an X in the dark. Positive bias seems to be a very strong thing!
@@LeantoPeak The runway numbers aren't easy to see from the glide slope. The runway number isn't that important anyway, because the number is assigned based on runway heading. Runway 22 would put you on a heading of 220 degrees. Typicly the runway lights are turned off if the runway is closed.
This incident reminds me a lot of the Singapore Airlines Flight 006 crash in Taipei except that one the incorrect runway they used had been closed for repairs and it didn't end so well, the aircraft collided with construction equipment killing 83 and injuring a further 71. Just goes to show the devastating consequences of failing to always make sure that where you are and where you expect to be are the same.
My CFI always tells me, first complete all your check list, it includes setting up the radios an programing the GPS,. During taxing is not a good place to do it. No I understand why he gets angry, :D
You will live a longer life you take his advise. As your head should be looking out the window for objects on the runway and the signs. You would never drive with your head down on the highway now would you?
This is such a great, short piece. So lucky to be able to see the swiss cheese holes line up, the failure occur, and for there to not be any damage or harm in the end. No one element is the true cause here, and I see people wanting to blame either the Student, or the Instructor for this mishap. I'm sure they're both capable (well, hopefully so for the student), and really seems like they should just have the student fly with another instructor that better suits him. Causes I see are: - Student discomfort on towered comms is obvious. I'm assuming they've learned mostly in uncontrolled airports and airspace, and it's stressful to even hear how uncomfortable they are. The comm is clearly his brain-disconnect button. - CFI over-coaching. Giving someone word for word responses is clearly using some of the bandwidth he needed for situational awareness. - Normalization of deviance: taxi instructions from tower should be 22R via A, B. If the aircraft needs to be on Bravo, then say Bravo. - Missed signage: Always confirm your location on the field via signage! - Lazy readbacks: When you're holding short of a runway, say where. Even if they were at the wrong place, if the pilot had done the full position report "Holding short 22R, A1" then tower would have another opportunity to clue in. With the CFI coaching so hard, why didn't he press for that as part of the readback? Listening to this the first time, you can hear all the little errors that led to this incident. I didn't know what the outcome would be so I relieved when it turned out to be "just" a pilot deviation.
This was the first thing I thought after watching the video. Why didn't someone take a few traffic cones out there and block off the closed runway where possible? Couldn't take more than a few minutes.
Yeah I am so surprised at that. I mean sure they probably need to get to the runway with maintenance cars, but if it is closed for longer time, the taxiways should use cones or something else to block the access visually.
The real answer to all this mess is put a sign or those wooden planks they use to close roads. That way communication or not it would have been avoided. If im going to work on an active runway you bet id make sure no one land or takes offs .
I like your idea if it is in the form of lit markings that can simply be turned on and off from the tower or airport administration building. It's not too uncommon to have a lit "X" set up at the thresholds of a closed runway, but those aren't usually called for if the closure is expected to be short-term.
Agreed, and every towered airport has the lit "x" signs on trailers that should have been used in this case. Not only for taxiing but for incoming aircraft, at night yet.
Ken Hurley It would be impractical to require it for every closure, such as visual FOD sweeps by Ops which may only be 3 or 4 minutes. The FAA would always need to limit its application in some way to avoid operational inefficiencies and unnecessary burden on both Ops and ATC.
I chalk this up to several issues. 1) Runway is closed, WHY are there NO indicators ON the taxiways indicating same? A string of flashing red lights across the taxiway or an airport vehicle blocking the taxiway with flashing lights prior to the closed runway would be one sure no miss sign that DONT GO HERE. 2) Controller failed to specify "via alpha then bravo hold short....." as should have been done 3) Pilot AND CFI apparently unfamiliar with airport layout. As a student, he should have taken the time knowing he was going to be there, to look over the layout and had it in reach in the cockpit so he could reference it, and the CFI should have INSISTED that happen. 4) Pilot and CFI failed to correctly identify WHICH runway they were on. 5) CFI is guilty of complacency by 'adjusting' the avionics while taxiing to the runway at an unfamiliar to the pilot airport. 6) Unanswered question is "were the 22L runway lights ON" at the time this happened, and if so, WHY. If they were turned OFF, then there is another indicator that something isn't right. Love the comments to this, learn a few things every time I see these... Hope I never have to deal with the CFI who was a part of this fiasco!
My home airport (KBAZ) has a similar taxi/runway component, with taxiway Alpha leading to Bravo at the end of a runway. Tower never includes Bravo in taxi instructions, though it is clearly a distinctly named taxiway.
What the controller didn't say was, "Possible pilot *and controller* deviation, though that last part will be fought by our union." 7110.65 3-1-7 "Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing taxi instructions or takeoff clearance." Whether the pilot's "ready at 22R" call constitutes sufficient determination is questionable.
Controllers do get written up for mistakes and or misses. They are called “performance discussions” and do stay in a controllers file for up to 2 years. They can lead to retraining. I don’t know where pilots get the opinion that controllers never get written up. The union only ensures that they are done correctly as I’m sure ALPA would too.
@@dy1815 Since I'm a retired controller, I am well aware of NATCA processes (as well as PATCO's) and its subterfuge and inappropriate demands at the facility and regional level when that is what they decide to do. PIlots who fly without union backing, such as all of GA, should absolutely assume that they are much more likely to have something "stick" than a controller will in any meaningful way. A performance discussion? Sure. More than that? It's going to have to be something major that the union doesn't really want others to see. The whole "public safety" campaign by NATCA was always pure PR. If anyone among the public imagined that the union was there for their good, they should have thought with a little more history in mind.
@@Raison_d-etre I don't know how "powerful" you think they need to be, but if you think they can't intervene in a controller--especially one favored by the union--getting a write-up that stays written up when it has any significant consequences attached, that is a misrepresentation. (That will also depend on the particular facility, rep, etc.)
Yes, under the circumstances, a mistake that could be made by anyone. Wonder what happened to the Instructor? Did he lose his Certificate, or was any action taken by the FAA?
+Skyhawk He missed the [taxiway] sign showing 22L instead of 22R. He failed to verify [that he was at the correct] runway for takeoff before crossing the hold line.
@@QemeH kaiju that's not how this works. Controller says "taxi to X via Y" I bloody well stick to Y. The controller has the experience, the student does not. There is no way to get to 22R via Alpha, this is a wrong clearance highly likely to cause confusion.
The command given by ATC strictly didn't lead to NEITHER runway. It's either A and B to 22R or A and A1 to 22L. But Alpha on its own terminates at the three-way intersection with Bravo and Alpha-1. It is however very common on busy airports not to specify the holding point to give pilots the choice (for example the cessna could've lined up at h/p Delta with the same clearance, if the TORA is enough). So while it was a bad decision to do that with a student pilot, it's not a mistake. The two major contributing factors to this incident are: 1) The instructor onboard the cessna failed to notice his student taxi, line-up and t/o run on the wrong runway. 2) ATC didn't catch that mistake and blindly gave T/O instructions on an assumed position.
Another contributing factor could be that as it was a two stop cross country it was not their home airfield and possible unfamiliarity with the airport layout?
*(Proper ground/tower communications)* Who are you talking to? Who are you? Where are you? What do you want to do? (Tower/Ground gives you instructions) Read back those instructions (READ BACK ALL RUNWAY HOLD SHORT INSTRUCTIONS and verify you're holding short the right runway) Who are you?
so "call me when get on the ground" means you are in deep trouble right? Also is there typically reprimands for tower controllers in this situation? He should have spotted the mistake as well right?
So many things are wrong with this one. 1) The controller did issue misleading taxi instruction and failed to spot the plane on the wrong runway when he give it clearance for take off. 2) The student had very poor communication skills, and most likely poor preparation for the flight 3) The instructor failed being pilot in command and was busy doing other things rather than supervising the student. 4) The disable runway was most likely not well marked as closed one 5) The layout of the airport was rather misleading and especially at night it would be hard to spot the mistake, though the signage should make it clear the runway is different. Weird that this can happen on controlled airport.
The importance of being thorough. Before pulling up to hold short line, verify runway (always have AFD or safetaxi open). Lining up , check numbers on pavement match your assigned runway.
Seems like road crews get the benefit of mobile light up signs, barrakades and barrels and cones for auto traffic. Seems like at the turns to and from the closed runway could have something.
One thing I'm seeing that's not mentioned: if workers are on the runway and the runway is closed for takeoffs and landings, it should be immediately obvious just from looking at it, especially at night. Get some flashing lights out there or something.
I give pilots all the credit in the world, I’m scared of heights and instead of becoming a carpenter I wound up being a tractor trailer driver for 40+ years and am proud of my record, also I became a instructor and was proud of how I did with that, the biggest compliment I ever would receive is when a former student (3 times this happened) would see me out at a truck stop or shipper/receiver and introduce themselves and thank me and especially for the safety course I did in the classroom and also on the road one on one (I also had a road that had a bridge clearance marked) so to see how they would approach that, but to see that they where doing good and being safe was the best thank you I could get ! So a really give these pilot trainers all the credit but understand how something like this could lead to a injury or death 💀 ! So as a trainer I hope he learned from that and corrected that slip up in the future ! God Bless and stay safe !
Const. Safety Officer here:: run into young guys that tell me of the comparison of some job sites they were on after mine, and what a horror show it was, short cuts, too busy management, no leadership and everything jus tgo go go ...................oh. WOOOOOPS.
Why don't they set up a temporary gate when the runway is closed?? Easy. Simple. Seems like it should be first priority. They do this on roads. Why not on runways?
ATC should have said taxi 22R via Alpha, Bravo or via Alpha, hold short 22R at Bravo perhaps just to clarify it to an obvious student pilot. And student and instructor should have seen the sign for 22L and queried ATC instead of accepting the clearance. Lucky for the crew on runway and those in the plane that the T-38 was not closer to the approach end.
There are plenty of numbers available so why don't all airports call them 22R & 44L for example? also shouldn't the closed runway be fenced off or sign posted "Closed"?
the runway number are the heading of the runway rounded to the closest tenths eg. if the runway heading is 218 degrees it will be rounded to 220 and called runway 22 and parallel runway are distinguished using left and right respectively. if you took of from the other direction it would be runway 04 or just 4 depending on the region they might leave out the 0 before the number.
I like your thinking, but the proposed solution will not work. You would need to add 36, so 22R and 58L. But not a lot of people would be able to convert that into a compass heading correctly.
For the student pilot, probably none.... since he was with and instructor.... the instructor is the PILOT IN COMMAND and is the pilot that has all responsibility ...
The fault and liability here should like completely on the controller. FAA JO 7110.65 (the far/aim for controllers) para 3-7-2 b specifies that the entire route must be given. A note clarifies that if the route ends in a connecting taxiway with the same identifier, that can be omitted from the clearance. So runway 22L taxi alpha (omitting A1) is acceptable. But as the controller assigned runway 22R, he must specify taxiway bravo. Additionally, para 3-1-7 requires the controller to determine position of the aircraft prior to issuing taxi instructions or takeoff clearance. The pilot reported that they were at 22R, however under para 3-1-12, the controller must visually scan the runways and verify the pilots position. The pilot DID take off on a runway he was not cleared for (22L v 22R) but several factors leading up to this close call rest primarily on the controller's failure to issue proper taxi instructions, failure to verify pilots position, and failure to visually scan runways.
I remember seeing a video about a jet crash where the pilots got on the wrong, closed runway and noticed the lack of lighting just before they crashed.
Doing this caused an Air Canada jet to line up to land on a taxiway some time back. They managed to go around just in time. Had they crashed into the line of fully loaded jumbos waiting to depart it would have made Tenerife look like a GA crash.
I'm instructing right now, I know I was once at their spot, but it's brutal trying to teach proper radio communications. I can literally write down what they're gonna say and somehow they'll still mess it up.
Solution= Big temporary barrier sign at both ends of any runway that says "runway is closed." Just like the ones you see on our roadways where a road is closed. Then this never would have happened.
Pilot should have had an airport diagram and mapped out his taxi route. By the time you’re into x-c flight, on airport navigation should be second nature.
How many hours had this student pilot flown to be on a night cross country, wouldn't he be close to completing his training? His radio work suggested he'd maybe had nine/ten hours of tuition at best. This guy needs to find another passion as flying is definitely not for him!!
This pilot has REALLY POOR comprehension of atc comms, and is not qualified to fly in daytime alone much less at night. The CFI was coaching comms.... too much focus on comm procedures - AT NIGHT. This student pilot does not have enough flight experience to be flying at night, much less solo in the day. This kind of crap really pisses me off. The CFI was pushing this incident to happen, and should have had the student take the plane back to tie-downs. At this point in his training, there's no way this flight should have ever left the ground. Both the CFI and the Student are overloaded. That's what kills people..
The controller should have said taxi to 22 right via Alpha and Bravo. A student pilot on a night cross country is likely task saturated already and probably unfamiliar with the airport. I feel like that would have helped clear up some confusion, especially as Alpha contributes to A1 and A2 to the wrong runway. At the end of the day the student pilot and CFI should have caught it was 22L not 22R though. Distraction is definitely an important point as well
Soooo many safeguards in place that failed for this to happen! If ONE of the maaaaany safeguards that were in place (Pilot, CFI, ATC, appropriate closure signage) would've been in place, this would not have happened.
What the hell was the instructor doing? Should have caught that right away... Runway closure should have been in preflight briefing!!! Sure everyone on the field knew about it
This flight was doomed from the start. If you can’t repeat and listen to instructions I think you need to re-evaluate what your doing. This CFI is at fault 100%. Thank GOD no one was killed. Lesson in this, PAY ATTENTION AND LISTEN TO ATC! You have to know where you are at ALL times.
Thats amazing, that only took 3 mins to drive my bloodpressure thru the roof. Ticking time bomb.......he should just take up golf and call it a win win for all those concerned.
Everyone and their cousins were at fault here. ATC tells him to go on alpha then 22R. No mention of bravo(big mistake). The student and CFI should have questioned the ATC instructions if they had the airport diagram. How did two people not see the runway sign AND the numbers on the runway itself is unbelievable?
One thing that isn't mentioned here in the lead up to this....if the runway was closed for what ever reason, it should have had a NOTAM issued about it.... the runway closeure should have been on the ATIS which the cessna should have listened to prior to calling for taxi clearance and if closed, especially at night the runway edge lighting and threshold lights should have been turned off...
This is why people hate air traffic control... “possible pilot deviation”... sure, true, but also possible ATC deviation for ignoring taxiway Bravo and not knowing what runway his planes are on
This is a case of the TOWER Failing to give correct Taxi instructions, a student pilot and an instructor doing in cockpit tasks. Had the tower issued the correct Taxi routing , there would not have been a problem. This is how the FAA works.
This amazes me, you can hear the instructor telling him what to say. How are students not prepared for this before getting into an actual aircraft. I can do this without even having flown one, ever.
Well, I can relate to the student, it is hard when you are kind of overwhelmed with everything. Though I am surprised this happened at night apparently, would expect this on beginner student, not someone getting night rating.
@@NetAndyCz What we don't know here is the students level, yes normally if u are getting a night rating u are already a licensed private pilot, but maybe he was still a student pilot with low time and the instructor was just taking him up at night to show him what it was like flying at night...so his comm skills were still poor, the instructor as the PIC was the one at fault here.... also for a low time student, taxiing at night at a large airport is difficult at best.... many people watching this might not realize how big this airport is.... prior to being the local airport, the was Mather AFB, a STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND B-52 bomber base and is huge...but any blame should be on the instructor as PIC, some maybe to the controller for not being aware of what runway the cessna actually was holding short of prior to take off clearance, but mostly in my opinion, with the airport and to ATC in the tower for having the closed runway's edge lighting and threshold lighting on at night..allowing the cessna to believe that they had reached an active runway..
This has always been an issue. Poor lighting. No painted runway numbers after the hold area on the runway and before it. As this is an age of electronic gadgets. Where they have their head inside and not looking outside.... It's why it happens more and more today. And had he looked at his airport layout chart closer. He would have noticed the slight bend to 22L. As B was a 45 degree turn to runway 22R. That he never made or noticed! Not to mention runway 22R was all lighted up. How the hell did he not see that? Oh right. They both had their heads down or blind....
The head of maintenance at the airport must of been a political appointment. Maintenance planning to do any job must be looked at from all angles, beforehand.
Agree with the pilots being at fault but why didn’t the controller include taxiway bravo in the clearance? It was 22R via alpha bravo not just alpha. So they just followed alpha till a runway.
If 22L was closed, why wasn't it indicated by the airport? Turning off runway lights and putting indicators at all taxi intersections of the closed runway would have helped. It reminds me of the accident where a commercial airliner tried to take off from a closed runway at night in bad weather and impacted the construction equipment that was on the runway. In that accident they also identified runway lights on the closed runway and lack of clear signage and barriers to indicate the runway was closed as contributing factors.
Christopher Guy • I thought of that same incident too.
Why do not turned ON the stop bars?
@reverse thrust They knew 22L was closed, but they thought they were on 22R. The fact that the runway lights were still on at 22L reinforced that misconception.
Absolutely right. If a highway is closed, the police always put barriers to block the on-ramps, because drivers will do anything. It seems obvious that an airport should do the same.
@@GoodLifeMedicine until someone leaves it on an active runway and it gets sucked up in gear or engine and causes a catastrophe
There's signs all over. Literally just read the sign. 22L... is not 22C or 22R.
The student was not able to think of anything when getting clearances. You could hear the instructor saying every single word the student was supposed to be reading back. I think its a bit hard to learn that way. Was the student not yet capable of reading back a clearance?
His mind wasn’t ready for all the layers of info needed to get off the ground. I don’t fly, but I would practice the comm as much as anything so I can concentrate on the act of flying.
This student was a puppet mindlessly repeating what the CFI ventriloquist was saying with no understanding or situational awareness. Anyone who has learned to fly or even taken lessons has been there so I can't fault the student (you don't know what you don't know) but the CFI is another matter. Very poor judgement on his part.
@Susan Tees That pilot was too inexperienced to be aware of anything. WHY that CFI thought the student was ready to fly at night when he didn't even know how to communicate with the tower is beyond me. The CFI was completely to blame, as was the controller that wasn't paying attention to where his planes were.
@@danni1993 : Plus, the controller told them to take taxiway alpha but never mentioned bravo.
22R via Alpha does not exist. Controllers fault first. Pilots did not confirm proper runway. Pilot's fault second. You are ultimately final authority of your actions.
22L via Alpha doesn't exist either. THAT is not the fault ATC made. ATC's major fault is not checking the cessna's position before issuing the t/o clearance.
@@QemeH Alpha and Alpha 1 are the same taxiway. You don't need to turn.
you can blame the pilot for making the mistake
you can blame the tower for being a bit confusing and then not noticing the mistake
you can blame the cfi for having a clearly not ready pilot fly, and for not noticing the mistake
you can blame the other aircraft that in an incident made one of the runways unavailable
you can blame the airport for not marking the closed runway more clearly
so i think that blaming one person specifically is just pointless, but definitely try to have ALL of these people learn from their mistakes so they dont happen again.
im just glad these videos exist, they present all these factors and potential consequences very well
It's always a CHAIN of events. This time nobody got hurt, but that isn't always the case.
Where was the X and why were the runway lights on?
X isn't put up for temporary closures. Probably had the lights on for the crew working on the 38
@@morganghetti "X" is used to indicate a closed runway. Even when the closure is temporary. I know this, because I lived near an airport. When the closed the runway, they put out lighted X's.
Also, the runway lights don't provide enough light to work by, they use night suns for that, a type of bright light that shines in the ground.
www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/publications/media/placemat%2020april09.pdf
@@erictaylor5462 if they couldn't spot a big sign saying 22L, not sure if they would have spotted an X in the dark. Positive bias seems to be a very strong thing!
@@LeantoPeak The runway numbers aren't easy to see from the glide slope.
The runway number isn't that important anyway, because the number is assigned based on runway heading. Runway 22 would put you on a heading of 220 degrees.
Typicly the runway lights are turned off if the runway is closed.
This incident reminds me a lot of the Singapore Airlines Flight 006 crash in Taipei except that one the incorrect runway they used had been closed for repairs and it didn't end so well, the aircraft collided with construction equipment killing 83 and injuring a further 71. Just goes to show the devastating consequences of failing to always make sure that where you are and where you expect to be are the same.
Should've put up a barrier on Alpha after Bravo
Absolutely. And the fact that the controller told the pilot to taxi to the runway via alpha, without mentioning bravo, didn't help.
My CFI always tells me, first complete all your check list, it includes setting up the radios an programing the GPS,. During taxing is not a good place to do it.
No I understand why he gets angry, :D
You will live a longer life you take his advise. As your head should be looking out the window for objects on the runway and the signs. You would never drive with your head down on the highway now would you?
Master Chief 00117 Unfortunately people on the highway do such things, like changing radio stations or looking at their smart phones!
This is such a great, short piece. So lucky to be able to see the swiss cheese holes line up, the failure occur, and for there to not be any damage or harm in the end.
No one element is the true cause here, and I see people wanting to blame either the Student, or the Instructor for this mishap. I'm sure they're both capable (well, hopefully so for the student), and really seems like they should just have the student fly with another instructor that better suits him.
Causes I see are:
- Student discomfort on towered comms is obvious. I'm assuming they've learned mostly in uncontrolled airports and airspace, and it's stressful to even hear how uncomfortable they are. The comm is clearly his brain-disconnect button.
- CFI over-coaching. Giving someone word for word responses is clearly using some of the bandwidth he needed for situational awareness.
- Normalization of deviance: taxi instructions from tower should be 22R via A, B. If the aircraft needs to be on Bravo, then say Bravo.
- Missed signage: Always confirm your location on the field via signage!
- Lazy readbacks: When you're holding short of a runway, say where. Even if they were at the wrong place, if the pilot had done the full position report "Holding short 22R, A1" then tower would have another opportunity to clue in. With the CFI coaching so hard, why didn't he press for that as part of the readback?
Listening to this the first time, you can hear all the little errors that led to this incident. I didn't know what the outcome would be so I relieved when it turned out to be "just" a pilot deviation.
Would it be an idea to like block the taxiways entering a runway when this runway is closed?
***** Well in my opinion that would still be better than crashing into another moving plane and putting even more people at risk with it...
This was the first thing I thought after watching the video. Why didn't someone take a few traffic cones out there and block off the closed runway where possible? Couldn't take more than a few minutes.
@@altonmoore556 Highway departments will tell you that people like to run over cones.
geoh7777 People in cars--Maybe. Pilots in aircraft on a towered strip--Not so much.
Yeah I am so surprised at that. I mean sure they probably need to get to the runway with maintenance cars, but if it is closed for longer time, the taxiways should use cones or something else to block the access visually.
The real answer to all this mess is put a sign or those wooden planks they use to close roads. That way communication or not it would have been avoided. If im going to work on an active runway you bet id make sure no one land or takes offs .
I like your idea if it is in the form of lit markings that can simply be turned on and off from the tower or airport administration building. It's not too uncommon to have a lit "X" set up at the thresholds of a closed runway, but those aren't usually called for if the closure is expected to be short-term.
i wonder if the runway lights were off if it would've made a difference?
Agreed, and every towered airport has the lit "x" signs on trailers that should have been used in this case. Not only for taxiing but for incoming aircraft, at night yet.
@@ReflectedMiles Maybe that needs to change!
Ken Hurley It would be impractical to require it for every closure, such as visual FOD sweeps by Ops which may only be 3 or 4 minutes. The FAA would always need to limit its application in some way to avoid operational inefficiencies and unnecessary burden on both Ops and ATC.
these animations are brilliant. I always learn a lot from them. You rule ASI!
They're actually Microsoft Flight Simulator!
I chalk this up to several issues. 1) Runway is closed, WHY are there NO indicators ON the taxiways indicating same? A string of flashing red lights across the taxiway or an airport vehicle blocking the taxiway with flashing lights prior to the closed runway would be one sure no miss sign that DONT GO HERE. 2) Controller failed to specify "via alpha then bravo hold short....." as should have been done 3) Pilot AND CFI apparently unfamiliar with airport layout. As a student, he should have taken the time knowing he was going to be there, to look over the layout and had it in reach in the cockpit so he could reference it, and the CFI should have INSISTED that happen. 4) Pilot and CFI failed to correctly identify WHICH runway they were on. 5) CFI is guilty of complacency by 'adjusting' the avionics while taxiing to the runway at an unfamiliar to the pilot airport. 6) Unanswered question is "were the 22L runway lights ON" at the time this happened, and if so, WHY. If they were turned OFF, then there is another indicator that something isn't right.
Love the comments to this, learn a few things every time I see these... Hope I never have to deal with the CFI who was a part of this fiasco!
You know CFI’s can make mistakes right? They’re human too, who knows if it was a really long day.
My home airport (KBAZ) has a similar taxi/runway component, with taxiway Alpha leading to Bravo at the end of a runway. Tower never includes Bravo in taxi instructions, though it is clearly a distinctly named taxiway.
What the controller didn't say was, "Possible pilot *and controller* deviation, though that last part will be fought by our union." 7110.65 3-1-7 "Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing taxi instructions or takeoff clearance." Whether the pilot's "ready at 22R" call constitutes sufficient determination is questionable.
Controllers do get written up for mistakes and or misses. They are called “performance discussions” and do stay in a controllers file for up to 2 years. They can lead to retraining. I don’t know where pilots get the opinion that controllers never get written up. The union only ensures that they are done correctly as I’m sure ALPA would too.
Relax Miles. The ATC union was broken by Reagan; they're nowhere near as powerful as you imagine. They aren't thugs like those unions that carry guns.
@@dy1815 Since I'm a retired controller, I am well aware of NATCA processes (as well as PATCO's) and its subterfuge and inappropriate demands at the facility and regional level when that is what they decide to do. PIlots who fly without union backing, such as all of GA, should absolutely assume that they are much more likely to have something "stick" than a controller will in any meaningful way. A performance discussion? Sure. More than that? It's going to have to be something major that the union doesn't really want others to see. The whole "public safety" campaign by NATCA was always pure PR. If anyone among the public imagined that the union was there for their good, they should have thought with a little more history in mind.
@@Raison_d-etre I don't know how "powerful" you think they need to be, but if you think they can't intervene in a controller--especially one favored by the union--getting a write-up that stays written up when it has any significant consequences attached, that is a misrepresentation. (That will also depend on the particular facility, rep, etc.)
A sawhorse with a ( Do Not Enter ) sign would have prevented that …. Probably too costly and not nearly technical enough.
A pilot who can’t handle comms without so much help from the CFI shouldn’t be flying at night.
Yes, under the circumstances, a mistake that could be made by anyone. Wonder what happened to the Instructor? Did he lose his Certificate, or was any action taken by the FAA?
I think when the controller said "call me when you get to International" says it all. I'll bet the instructor wet his pants on the rest of the flight.
the Cessna did not miss anything. the controller should have said taxi to 22R via A, B hold shot 22R. both pilots and the controller share the mistake
+Skyhawk He missed the [taxiway] sign showing 22L instead of 22R. He failed to verify [that he was at the correct] runway for takeoff before crossing the hold line.
+olsonr Plus, you know, one COULD look at GND charts and see the BRAVO / ALPHA 1 situation, especially as an instructor...
@@QemeH kaiju that's not how this works. Controller says "taxi to X via Y" I bloody well stick to Y. The controller has the experience, the student does not. There is no way to get to 22R via Alpha, this is a wrong clearance highly likely to cause confusion.
The command given by ATC strictly didn't lead to NEITHER runway. It's either A and B to 22R or A and A1 to 22L. But Alpha on its own terminates at the three-way intersection with Bravo and Alpha-1. It is however very common on busy airports not to specify the holding point to give pilots the choice (for example the cessna could've lined up at h/p Delta with the same clearance, if the TORA is enough). So while it was a bad decision to do that with a student pilot, it's not a mistake. The two major contributing factors to this incident are:
1) The instructor onboard the cessna failed to notice his student taxi, line-up and t/o run on the wrong runway.
2) ATC didn't catch that mistake and blindly gave T/O instructions on an assumed position.
Thank you for point that out. You are absolutely correct. Both Pilots and ATC lacked situational Awareness
Another contributing factor could be that as it was a two stop cross country it was not their home airfield and possible unfamiliarity with the airport layout?
Very insightful and instructive for new pilots learning the protocol and procedure.
*(Proper ground/tower communications)*
Who are you talking to?
Who are you?
Where are you?
What do you want to do?
(Tower/Ground gives you instructions)
Read back those instructions (READ BACK ALL RUNWAY HOLD SHORT INSTRUCTIONS and verify you're holding short the right runway)
Who are you?
so "call me when get on the ground" means you are in deep trouble right? Also is there typically reprimands for tower controllers in this situation? He should have spotted the mistake as well right?
The Lowmein It means somebody's in trouble or something needs to be reviewed or addressed.
+The Lowmein It depends. This is one of those situations where everyone screwed up.
It is never good. It should be considered the phone call of death.
@@Wildcat5181 Not if you've a good (and expensive) lawyer.
Awesome explanation and animation, great Job!
So many things are wrong with this one.
1) The controller did issue misleading taxi instruction and failed to spot the plane on the wrong runway when he give it clearance for take off.
2) The student had very poor communication skills, and most likely poor preparation for the flight
3) The instructor failed being pilot in command and was busy doing other things rather than supervising the student.
4) The disable runway was most likely not well marked as closed one
5) The layout of the airport was rather misleading and especially at night it would be hard to spot the mistake, though the signage should make it clear the runway is different.
Weird that this can happen on controlled airport.
The importance of being thorough. Before pulling up to hold short line, verify runway (always have AFD or safetaxi open). Lining up , check numbers on pavement match your assigned runway.
How about simply putting up some construction cones at the start of 22L?
Seems like road crews get the benefit of mobile light up signs, barrakades and barrels and cones for auto traffic. Seems like at the turns to and from the closed runway could have something.
loving these videos
One thing I'm seeing that's not mentioned: if workers are on the runway and the runway is closed for takeoffs and landings, it should be immediately obvious just from looking at it, especially at night. Get some flashing lights out there or something.
I give pilots all the credit in the world, I’m scared of heights and instead of becoming a carpenter I wound up being a tractor trailer driver for 40+ years and am proud of my record, also I became a instructor and was proud of how I did with that, the biggest compliment I ever would receive is when a former student (3 times this happened) would see me out at a truck stop or shipper/receiver and introduce themselves and thank me and especially for the safety course I did in the classroom and also on the road one on one (I also had a road that had a bridge clearance marked) so to see how they would approach that, but to see that they where doing good and being safe was the best thank you I could get ! So a really give these pilot trainers all the credit but understand how something like this could lead to a injury or death 💀 !
So as a trainer I hope he learned from that and corrected that slip up in the future ! God Bless and stay safe !
Const. Safety Officer here:: run into young guys that tell me of the comparison of some job sites they were on after mine, and what a horror show it was, short cuts, too busy management, no leadership and everything jus tgo go go ...................oh. WOOOOOPS.
Why was the T- 38 left on the runway and not moved off the runway 22L rather than being worked on in a dangerous place?
What are the repercussions for an event like this. Do the pilots get a fine like a traffic ticket? Can someone lose their job?
Why don't they set up a temporary gate when the runway is closed?? Easy. Simple. Seems like it should be first priority. They do this on roads. Why not on runways?
Such a nice voice and so iconic
Is that FS9?
I still use FS9 even in 2020.
That's most likely FSX or P3D. I too use FS9, still great after all these years
ATC should have said taxi 22R via Alpha, Bravo or via Alpha, hold short 22R at Bravo perhaps just to clarify it to an obvious student pilot. And student and instructor should have seen the sign for 22L and queried ATC instead of accepting the clearance. Lucky for the crew on runway and those in the plane that the T-38 was not closer to the approach end.
I guess they could not put a lit sign "X" and or block the runway as a precaution.
Why didn't the airport personnel place a big flashing X marker at the end of 22L? It would have prevented this incident
Or, for that matter, just park a car at each end of the runway.
Damn!!! THAT many mistakes??? Also with an instructor??? Jeez!!!
Why wasn't taxi way Alpha1 closed at Bravo? Why was runway 22L not closed with a barrier? Seems the system broke down not the tower or pilots.
Love2FlyKAP well also the pilots. But definitely the system as well
Kind of hard to find out who not to blame on this one. Everyone made small mistake at the same more or less.
Does this have anything to do with the T-38 that had it's tire blown on the same day at the same airport?
Is this a joke question? Lol. Yes its that incident!
@@smokingspitfire1197lol I don’t remember what I was thinking when I wrote that, 4 years
There are plenty of numbers available so why don't all airports call them 22R & 44L for example? also shouldn't the closed runway be fenced off or sign posted "Closed"?
the runway number are the heading of the runway rounded to the closest tenths
eg. if the runway heading is 218 degrees it will be rounded to 220 and called runway 22 and parallel runway are distinguished using left and right respectively. if you took of from the other direction it would be runway 04 or just 4 depending on the region they might leave out the 0 before the number.
44L? say you dont fly. lol
I like your thinking, but the proposed solution will not work.
You would need to add 36, so 22R and 58L.
But not a lot of people would be able to convert that into a compass heading correctly.
What are the consequences for the pilot and CFI in an incident like this?
For the student pilot, probably none.... since he was with and instructor.... the instructor is the PILOT IN COMMAND and is the pilot that has all responsibility ...
How did the CFI miss this??
Did they not notice the giant 22L on the runway?
The fault and liability here should like completely on the controller. FAA JO 7110.65 (the far/aim for controllers) para 3-7-2 b specifies that the entire route must be given. A note clarifies that if the route ends in a connecting taxiway with the same identifier, that can be omitted from the clearance. So runway 22L taxi alpha (omitting A1) is acceptable. But as the controller assigned runway 22R, he must specify taxiway bravo.
Additionally, para 3-1-7 requires the controller to determine position of the aircraft prior to issuing taxi instructions or takeoff clearance. The pilot reported that they were at 22R, however under para 3-1-12, the controller must visually scan the runways and verify the pilots position.
The pilot DID take off on a runway he was not cleared for (22L v 22R) but several factors leading up to this close call rest primarily on the controller's failure to issue proper taxi instructions, failure to verify pilots position, and failure to visually scan runways.
A simple solution is turn off the lights on a closed runway or change the light colors to all red.
I remember seeing a video about a jet crash where the pilots got on the wrong, closed runway and noticed the lack of lighting just before they crashed.
Doing this caused an Air Canada jet to line up to land on a taxiway some time back. They managed to go around just in time. Had they crashed into the line of fully loaded jumbos waiting to depart it would have made Tenerife look like a GA crash.
@@MIKEKELLEY12000 Comair Flight 5191. I initially thought that this was that flight due to the video title.
Listening to the student pilot talk on the radio sure makes me happy I don't flight instruct anymore!
I'm instructing right now, I know I was once at their spot, but it's brutal trying to teach proper radio communications. I can literally write down what they're gonna say and somehow they'll still mess it up.
stp84 A good teacher always wants to teach. Thank you for quitting 👍🏻
The student sounded completely out of their depth.
Solution= Big temporary barrier sign at both ends of any runway that says
"runway is closed."
Just like the ones you see on our roadways where a road is closed.
Then this never would have happened.
Tower should have mentioned taxiway bravo
Perhaps that is worth marking as a hot spot
Pilot should have had an airport diagram and mapped out his taxi route. By the time you’re into x-c flight, on airport navigation should be second nature.
How many hours had this student pilot flown to be on a night cross country, wouldn't he be close to completing his training? His radio work suggested he'd maybe had nine/ten hours of tuition at best. This guy needs to find another passion as flying is definitely not for him!!
This pilot has REALLY POOR comprehension of atc comms, and is not qualified to fly in daytime alone much less at night. The CFI was coaching comms.... too much focus on comm procedures - AT NIGHT. This student pilot does not have enough flight experience to be flying at night, much less solo in the day. This kind of crap really pisses me off. The CFI was pushing this incident to happen, and should have had the student take the plane back to tie-downs. At this point in his training, there's no way this flight should have ever left the ground. Both the CFI and the Student are overloaded. That's what kills people..
SpaXpert • Totally agree. He sounds like he's using the radio for the very first time.
Agreed.
Seems like the CFI shouldn't be a CFI. I get accidents happen but the whole point of am instructor should be hypervigilance
The runway could have been blocked off, like roads get pylons or barracades.
Lack of situtaional awareness on both pilots and ATC
So who got fried by the FAA?
I cannot believe somebody like that is flying in our skies shaking my damn head right now
Placing some fluoro witches hats across the entrance to the closed runway would help a lot.
I am sure my readbacks were even worse than this when I was a student pilot.
The controller should have said taxi to 22 right via Alpha and Bravo. A student pilot on a night cross country is likely task saturated already and probably unfamiliar with the airport. I feel like that would have helped clear up some confusion, especially as Alpha contributes to A1 and A2 to the wrong runway. At the end of the day the student pilot and CFI should have caught it was 22L not 22R though. Distraction is definitely an important point as well
Soooo many safeguards in place that failed for this to happen! If ONE of the maaaaany safeguards that were in place (Pilot, CFI, ATC, appropriate closure signage) would've been in place, this would not have happened.
So they could simply extend 22R all the way to that end turn and it should solve this issue in the future..?
Foreflight is your friend for everyone. Cheap insurance for cases like this.
I'm sry but there last line of defense was the red taxiway sign that states...22L ...not 22R.
What the hell was the instructor doing? Should have caught that right away... Runway closure should have been in preflight briefing!!! Sure everyone on the field knew about it
there should have been an airport diagram on the pilots lap and a "right on bravo" out the controller's mouth.
This flight was doomed from the start. If you can’t repeat and listen to instructions I think you need to re-evaluate what your doing. This CFI is at fault 100%. Thank GOD no one was killed. Lesson in this, PAY ATTENTION AND LISTEN TO ATC! You have to know where you are at ALL times.
lmao I wonder how often people can hear me coaching the students through the radio calls....
i think closed runways should be fenced off.
HEY CFI - the big 22R sign =/= 22L !!!!
Thats amazing, that only took 3 mins to drive my bloodpressure thru the roof. Ticking time bomb.......he should just take up golf and call it a win win for all those concerned.
Everyone and their cousins were at fault here. ATC tells him to go on alpha then 22R. No mention of bravo(big mistake). The student and CFI should have questioned the ATC instructions if they had the airport diagram. How did two people not see the runway sign AND the numbers on the runway itself is unbelievable?
One thing that isn't mentioned here in the lead up to this....if the runway was closed for what ever reason, it should have had a NOTAM issued about it.... the runway closeure should have been on the ATIS which the cessna should have listened to prior to calling for taxi clearance and if closed, especially at night the runway edge lighting and threshold lights should have been turned off...
This is why people hate air traffic control... “possible pilot deviation”... sure, true, but also possible ATC deviation for ignoring taxiway Bravo and not knowing what runway his planes are on
Some people just weren't meant to be Pilots
(Huge red sign saying 22L in the middle of the screen)
Tower, we're sitting at 22R and...
This is a case of the TOWER Failing to give correct Taxi instructions, a student pilot and an instructor doing in cockpit tasks. Had the tower issued the correct Taxi routing , there would not have been a problem. This is how the FAA works.
OMG é Power-Phull
Singapore Air. Taipei Airport
This amazes me, you can hear the instructor telling him what to say. How are students not prepared for this before getting into an actual aircraft. I can do this without even having flown one, ever.
Well, I can relate to the student, it is hard when you are kind of overwhelmed with everything. Though I am surprised this happened at night apparently, would expect this on beginner student, not someone getting night rating.
Being behind your keyboard and being in the cockpit are two very different things.
No you cant.
@@NetAndyCz What we don't know here is the students level, yes normally if u are getting a night rating u are already a licensed private pilot, but maybe he was still a student pilot with low time and the instructor was just taking him up at night to show him what it was like flying at night...so his comm skills were still poor, the instructor as the PIC was the one at fault here.... also for a low time student, taxiing at night at a large airport is difficult at best.... many people watching this might not realize how big this airport is.... prior to being the local airport, the was Mather AFB, a STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND B-52 bomber base and is huge...but any blame should be on the instructor as PIC, some maybe to the controller for not being aware of what runway the cessna actually was holding short of prior to take off clearance, but mostly in my opinion, with the airport and to ATC in the tower for having the closed runway's edge lighting and threshold lighting on at night..allowing the cessna to believe that they had reached an active runway..
Using GPS for taxi awareness - confirm that you are where you think you are - would have also helped.
This has always been an issue. Poor lighting. No painted runway numbers after the hold area on the runway and before it. As this is an age of electronic gadgets. Where they have their head inside and not looking outside.... It's why it happens more and more today.
And had he looked at his airport layout chart closer. He would have noticed the slight bend to 22L. As B was a 45 degree turn to runway 22R. That he never made or noticed! Not to mention runway 22R was all lighted up. How the hell did he not see that? Oh right. They both had their heads down or blind....
How da fu the instructor miss that!?
At least they didn't die
Not great RT.
✅
Oof you never want to hear those words
Some people just shouldn't try to fly airplanes, all it takes is one stupid ass not paying attention
4:45 i didnt know kevin spacey was learning to fly!
The head of maintenance at the airport must of been a political appointment.
Maintenance planning to do any job must be looked at from all angles, beforehand.