The Games That Don't Respect Your Intelligence
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2023
- The games that don't respect players intelligence. The problem with Metroidvanias and how to make them better games.
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great video me your opinions are so well thought out and intelligent
Damn right me
Hello you, the sea is blue
12:18 that's it. You don't like metroidvanias and you think that games shouldn't be metroidvanias. That's fine, but all this snide talk about how it's "lazy game design" and "doesn't respect the players intelligence" is both condescending and rendered moot by the fact that you don't want those games to be metroidvanias in the first place.
Hollow Knight, Blasphemous, and more games give exactly what you gushed over prey about. In Hollow knight you could fight the mantis Lords to get into Deepnest, or you could explore the upper sections of the fungal wastes are drop down, or bypass it entirely and take the path from the queen's gardens to the Hidden village. And in blasphemous you can reach the credits without getting a single ability. And even in games that are more linear like dread, there are tricks to get stuff out of order or skipped entirely. I was able to fight Raven beak without ever getting the space jump by making use of the shinespark. So this talk about them being "fully linear experiences disguised as games with choice" is complete bullshit. And saying that linear games might as well be movies is completely ignoring that player choice is not the only reason people play games. They play them for the challenge of taking down a hard boss, for the handcrafted level design, and a dozen other factors. Boiling games down to what you like the most like that's All that matters is just stupid.
And talking about metroidvania worlds being static is laughable considering you **Show footage from the infected crossroads** in the video. You know, the area that gets remixed halfway through the game with different enemies and terrain? Saying they should be more like roguelikes is ignoring the massive failure that Chasm had when trying to procedurally generate an interesting metroidvania map. Even a Robot Named Fight, which is the only true Roguelikes metroidvania (Dead cells only resembles a metroidvania for it's first few hours, not sure why you included it since it doesn't share most of the problems you have with the other games). Has to restrict itself heavily so that the maps are actually beatable.
You don't like Metroidvanias, and you want them to be more like the immersive sims you enjoy. And that's fine, but dismissing what people love about these games as "Lazy game design", and insisting that the genre has to change completely because you don't like it, is just insulting, both to people like me who love those games, and to the developers who poured their time into these games. If you don't like pizza, say you don't like pizza and move on, don't insist that the tomato sauce should be jam and the cheese should be sour cream, because you like toast better. At that point it's no longer pizza.
Go play System Shock, and leave Metroid to the people who actually enjoy it
so many youtubers think "I don't like this thing therefor its bad" and think they can make an awesome video essay that makes their opinion sound right.
11:00 There is no "problem" with metroidvanias, those are intents in design to create their specific genre. Your points are just personal preference.
Backtracking in metroidvanias is more enjoyable than in, say a God of War 3.
Again, all the problems lie in YOU.
But that's what I like about hollow knight, you can reach certain areas without usual abilities, game maker's toolkit has an incredible video on the topic, to use an example he used, usually to reach Crystal peak you need to get desolate dive, but you don't have to, there's a dark room in forgotten crossroads that, if you have the lantern, you can reach Crystal peak early, that's what I did in my first playthrough
Ya totally see this point actually hollow knight does allow you to get to some zones in different ways, I think my bigger issue is in many cases if you want to go down a specific path you need a specific tool, I’d rather one path with multiple tools than multiple paths each requiring a more strict set I would say. But I actually think overall hollow knight is very well designed regardless.
And thank you so much for taking the time to watch and comment!
@@FranklyGaming sounds like you prefer linear gameplay with many tools to travel that gameplay. But that contradicts your main argument.
@@FranklyGaming You are arguing against playing a metroidvania then. One major part of them is having certain areas locked behind upgrades.
@@FranklyGaming Besides the idea the others already told that you contradicted yourself, in hollow knight if I'm not wrong you just need to backtrack one map to finish the game. The rest is a decision of the player to know more about the world.
@@McConha ya I actually really like hollow knight in a lot of ways I totally get why people love the genre too I guess I just genuinely believe its bad game design when compared to how it could be done more like an "immersive sim". It's kinda a tough topic cause there is no way to make that argument without pissing people off just like if someone told me objectively immersive sims are worse than X I would like like wtf lol, but I mean I do genuinely believe it and figured life is more fun not taking the easy way out making stuff that is safe lol
Few things:
- For one, it's a well-made and -presented video so props for that.
- You say you disliked Ori because of the backtracking. WotW has almost zero backtracking if you're just playing to experience the story like you say you were. When you reach an impassable area, you don't backtrack to find the new ability; the ancestral trees are always in new areas. That's not backtracking. It's just not the definition of the word. It's a detour, maybe, and that might frustrate you, but it's not backtracking.
- The fact that it might frustrate you is fair, I guess, but your claim that all abilities in metroidvanias should be option is just dumb. Unlocking new areas with abilities is pretty much a defining part of the genre. Imagine I criticised hero shooters because I didn't like there being different characters, and said I thought they should just be optional.
- Excessive backtracking was one of the more common critiques people had of Hollow Knight, but to be honest, even then, it's such an integral part of what a metroidvania is that it's not the most fair criticism. Seeing those inaccessible areas and looking forward to being able to come back to them and see what they hold is half of your motivation to progress. There are plenty of games where exploration is much more open - Mario Odyssey comes to mind as a recent example that was praised a lot for basically letting you go wherever you like within a level so long as you're skilled enough. That's just not what metroidvanias are though. Yes, in HK's case specifically they could have mitigated the mindless running with better fast travel, but if you're put off to it to such and extreme degree, it's kind of like being put off by all the racing in a driving game - the genre just isn't your thing.
- That's the main point I want to make here - clearly metroidvanias are just not for you. You mention this in the video, but then handwave it away, when actually, that's the answer to your problem. The reasonable thing to do is accept that and move on, but instead you make a video about how actually the issue is that they're dumb games, and you're just too smart for them. It's a very immature and disingenuous attitude. It's literally the Skinner meme of "Could it be that this is just not for me? No, everyone else is stupid".
- You seem to want these games to be puzzle games, but fail to realise that they're not. In Ori, or Hollow Knight, or whichever other metroidvania, the large gap you need double jump to cross isn't a puzzle. You're not some genius for realising you need double jump, and the game isn't insulting you by thinking you don't realise that. Double jump is just a device to justify a new section to platform through, which is the actual fun, and challenge of the game. Metroidvanias aren't about puzzles; they're about platforming and combat. Once you platform and combat your way to the double jump, new areas open up for you to platform and combat through, chasing new devices. The abilities are there to string you along through the actual content of the game, and have the nice bonus of increasing your power as you go. This is fundamentally how the genre works, and it's kind of insane that you seem to miss this and instead think it's somehow a big puzzle. I agree that puzzle games being open-ended is nice. These are just simply not puzzle games, therefore that does not apply.
- It's great that you like Prey, but Prey is an immersive sim. It might take inspiration from metroidvanias, but it's an immersive sim, so the comparison doesn't hold up.
There can be hidden areas without needing to gain an obvious ability like double jump. When I see an area locked off like that, I just get frustrated because I know I have to come all the way back here and fight the same enemies at some later point. Just to get into an area that may or may not be worth my time. This leads me to just skip the hidden areas sometimes
Fully agree with your comment aside from a statement in point 6.
tl;dr: There is room for Metroidvania's without combat. Metroid and Ori peak with their escape sequences. And the best abilities in them turn enemies into platforms.
Full:
I would argue that combat isn't as defining a feature of the genre as the platforming/exploration. My favourite Metroidvania is Ori 1 with it having no boss fights, instead just building off of Metroid's amazing and famous escape sequences. And the Bash ability which transforms enemies from obstacles to kill into platforms to extend movement. That was my chief issue with the sequel, instead of expanding on Ori's non-combat side they just shoved in a bunch of Hollow-Knight mechanics/combat and killed what made Ori 1 so unique/great.
I am yet to play it but Yoku's Island Express is a pretty renowned Metroidvania without an emphasis on combat or combat powerups. The genre definitely has room for non-combat encounters since it is more about the upgrades + non-linear progression.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 I fully agree with everything you said lol, maybe I should have made it clearer in my original comment that I absolutely think metroidvanias can be more either/or when it comes to platforming/combat, and I'm totally fine with them leaning very heavily one way or the other - I loved Ori 1's focus on movement and agree its dilution in the sequel weakened the game. On the flipside, while I don't consider Hollow Knight to the the masterpiece that Ori is, the combat is where that game really shines; there are fantastic fights that feel great to play, and at least in comparison to actually movement-focused games, Hollow Knight has very little movement at all imo. I think the balance between the two is an interesting topic, and you can definitely make a fantastic game going down either route.
Ultimately neither platforming or combat are the *most* defining aspects of the genre imo - the acquiring of upgrades, and the rewards for returning to areas you previously explored, are. Without those, there's not much that separates a metroidvania from Mario, regardless of where the platforming/combat balance sits. I think some level of combat, or at least, the presence of enemies, is a component of the genre, at least one that's relevant enough to bring up in the context of this video, but perhaps I should have worded my original comment as "platforming *or* combat". My point was that ultimately, while metroidvanias can be about platforming or combat, they're not puzzle games lol.
I've never actually heard of Yoku's Island, I'll give it a look. Thanks!
Super Metroid did this almost 30 years ago by having a secret wall jump ability that let you go pretty much everywhere in the map
Randomized Super Metroid is exactly the kind of game FranklyGaming is asking for, once you learn the weird and accidental mechanics like infinite bomb jumps and short charging, and master wall jumping. If you're good enough you can even fight the bosses out of order, and some people can even beat Ridley without the varia suit
Interesting video. Even though you spoke about it I still think it comes down to you having more of a preference for something like an immersive sim or a sandbox. One thing I will say is they could maybe make it less obvious what ability you will need before you get it. e.g. in Hollow Knight you can walk past something and think "I'm going to need a wall jump", but when you see the chasm in the crystal caves you might think you need to unlock a lift or something and are pleasantly surprised when you actually get the crystal heart.
Ya for sure I’m biased too in what I like which skews my opinion haha, I actually do think hollow knight is good to it’s just the style of game doesn’t speak to me as much I guess.
Thanks so much for watching by the way!
First of all really well made video dude loved your commentary, having said that i disagree with your premise, you gave a ton of reasons why YOU dont like metroivanias which is valid but you are trying to make it look like they are objetive designs flaws when they are not, they points you made would make a metroidvania game... not a metroidvania game, its like saying you know Pop as a genre is lacking they need a few guitars with distorsion and some odd song writing to round it self because they are not respecting my intelligence as a listener with those basic approaches... well... no dude, you just want metal and pop doesn't need and surely doesn't want to be metal, the same applies with game genres some people specifically look for what you branded as "bad/lazy game design".
Ya I definitely agree to an extent which is why I knew I had to put a disclaimer at the end like you pointed out haha, I really do think it’s lazy design when compared to say immersive sims though. Like the idea of a Metroidvania just gets enhanced with more choice and less gating I think, it’s an inherent problem to the design of the games. It’s on purpose and still “well designed” but I think from the perspective of making a game it doesn’t work as well, but like you said that is just kinda my preference, but I guess everything is just preference
This. It just sounds like this guy isn't really into MVs. Which is fine -- to each their own -- but it doesn't mean most of the games in the genre are bad.
@@FranklyGaming The immersive sims also have their plethora of lazy design pitfalls and most of the time they are locked by the story line instead of a new ability which is practically the same, like i said most of theproblems mentioned in your video still exist you just like those games better, which is fine.
@@RoddSantiago yeah so many immersive sims have lazy design and the only thing that makes them cool are wonky physics.
As a big MV fan I do see what you’re getting at with your points. I don’t really like cookie cutter MVs where the gates are really in your face, like say Guacamelee (even though the core mechanics itself is fun enough). I really prefer it when intentional or unintentional tech is known for Metroidvanias and allow players to really open the game through sequence breaking. Often this meta game emerges of trying to find the best route to avoid more backtracking and is great when you find that solution.
Super Metroid accomplishes this really well, as experienced players can use abilities like walljump or bomb jump to get to more areas than they could in their initial playthrough. Some of the other best games like SotN and HK also accomplish this.
I think sandbox and immersive sim games have some overlap with MVs and can really hit similar satisfying notes. However, there’s a bit of distinction because Metroidvanias will have a more particular designed interconnected dungeon, which has that catered pacing like you mentioned. Different flavors on a similar dish
Finding the right balance of making the player feel like they discovered a new sequence break themselves is the best kind of satisfaction, and few MVs are able to accomplish it. Probably the few MVs that get it right stand high above the rest for this reason IMO.
This is such a good write up exactly on the same page as you I just think there is such an awesome small revolution that could happen for MVs that would make existing players happy too. Thanks for watching!
You are frustrated by being forced to explore, I hear you, but as you said at the beginning of your video, these kind of games simply isn't for you, because it is not insulting to your intelligence to be encouraged to explore until you are able to progress forward. This is more of a personal problem on your end in my opinion than a problem with these styles of games. I personally enjoy unlocking new abilities that are required to progress, seems to me like you have a problem with short attention span issues. Kind of a common issue with folks these days, though I don't really blame you, things like tik tok and facebook feeds will do that to a person.
In my opinion, the main problem with a metroidvania whose “locks” are all skill-based rather than character-ability based is that it’s very difficult to guide players on the “normal” path without directly telling them what to do. If the “normal” path has a regular difficulty curve and all of the “locked” branching paths have a difficulty spike to indicate which parts you’re supposed to go to at any given moment, how will you put difficulty spikes on the “normal” path? In regular metroidvanias, the player knows they have to overcome a difficulty spike area/boss because it’s one of the few areas that isn’t locked. Take Hornet Protector from Hollow Knight, for example. The only way to access fungal wastes (without glitches or exploits) is by getting the mothwing cloak, which you have to defeat Hornet Protector to obtain. Hornet Protector is a pretty big difficulty spike from the last few bosses you’ve fought, but you know that you must defeat her because defeating her gives you the “key” to enter fungal wastes. In a metroidvania without ability-based “locks,” a basic difficulty spike wouldn’t work well because the player has already established that if there is a difficulty spike in one path, that’s not the path forward, so the player must look elsewhere. Usually, games that have difficulty “locks” either have to directly tell the player which path is the path forward (such as Breath of the Wild) or have few branching paths on the main path, which isn’t good for metroidvanias. Regular metroidvanias get away with difficulty spikes because the player’s skill and the player character’s “keys” are two distinct parts of the player character. When the two are mixed together in a metroidvania, it’s difficult to tell the player where to go without actually telling them where to go.
> playing with objective markers
> trying to make some point about games disrespecting your intelligence
He’s on to me lol
I know it's painful when game you love so much is not as popular as you would want it to be but man, it's the second video of yours talking about how some games aren't Prey. Anyway, I'm just minute in and maybe I'm wrong, will find out in 15 minutes.
Ya I address it some cause I know people had that complaint on the outer wilds video haha, I think most of all it’s just the style I like haha, and thanks for watching as always
@@FranklyGaming regarding your main topic of the video, hollow knight does give you options of sequence breaking, you can find you 1st charm even before entering dritmouth, by pogo jumping over spikes, game teaches you how to do it later in forgotten crossroads without directly telling you that. Every zone in the game have at least 2 way to enter them(except for Abyss and hive, but those areas are pretty straight forward), sure, game is pretty linear early on, but when you get a wall jump you can access pretty much any area you want. Don't tell me Prey dont limit you in any way at all with items, i know you have to get a jetpack to get to the fastest way to travel between areas.
p.s. you should try Toki Tori 2, i've never played it myself but Mark Brown from GMTK talked about how its metroidvania that doesnt limit you with items and every obsticle is a puzzle you just dont know how to solve yet. Or at least watch his videos to get an idea what that game is.
edit:nvm, it's probably not, because it give only way to solve a roadblock
@@Barmem Haven't heard of Toki Tori will have to give it a look, and I love Mark Brown he is awesome isn't he working on the next Mass Effect now? Excited for that
@@FranklyGaming By the way, Mossbag already made The biggest iceberg video you could make about hollow knight. i dont think it would be wise to try to compete there.
For me knowing that I have to go find an item to pass an obstacle, is the whole reason I love metroidvenia's.
If all upgrades were optional, I wouldn't really bother to get them, because I wouldn't really see the point in them.
(plus Hollow Knight has alternative routes, for example you can buy the Lumafly Lantern from the merchant in Dirthmouth, to get into the Crystal Peak early. )
But I am the kind of person that likes to have clear objectives with a few choices along the way, the whole make your own fun never really appealed to me.
But to each their own.
P.S. sorry for my english.
Man, if Prey didn't have a little too much complexity in it's systems (which the devs themselves have acknowledged) and repetitive enemies, it would be a top 10 game all time
Really like your videos. As a huge fan of metroidvanias I respect your opinion. However your video rubbed me the wrong way and I think it's that it felt to me like you were stating an opinion as fact. You may not like back tracking and the usual mechanics associated with the genre, but saying the games "insult your intelligence" is extremely harsh and idk if it's just me kind of felt like an insult at me for loving these games and not feeling the same way as you. I'm sure that's not how you meant to come across you've said in other videos that people are allowed to love what they love. Maybe this one just hit close to home for me. Very thought out video, from someone whose actually played these games. Take the like and I'll see you on your next vid
Hey nexas! Ya I didn’t mean it in that way I think you are right though I could have phrased it better lol, I do 100% see why people like the games and they are awesome in their own right too.
And thanks as always for all the support I appreciate it and the feedback helps me improve to make even better stuff for you guys
I went into this very skeptical, but you make some good points. Many other people in the comments have pointed this out as well but the point of games like these is to explore and discover things on our own. Sure we may know we might need a double jump, but that should be an exciting feeling of "Oh man, I want to find that double jump!" not, "why don't i have the double jump right now?". Knowing ahead of time that you need a double jump to progress isn't the puzzle: the puzzle is learning how to use the double jump once you have it to traverse the level design and getting good at using it with your own skill. Games are more than just power fantasies, the nature of Metroidvanias is to explore and your exploration is rewarded. The fun comes from discovering it on your own, and that should make you feel powerful. It certainly doesn't help that we live in a homogenized age that takes the magic out of exploration and self discovery.
2:20
"Progression relies on things outside of your control"
Exploration is in your control. Look at your map and go where you think the upgrade/key might be.
4:02
"I can feel myself starting to shut my brain off. They don't respect my intelligence... I'm forced to backtrack to search for the solution to a problem I already knew the answer to."
A fundamental misunderstanding of what makes metroidvanias good and trying to rephrase it as "Wah wah I'm too SMART for backtracking!!!"
Like wow dude, do you really think you're the only guy on earth who knows the double-jump is a power-up you're gonna get later? Get over yourself.
6:13
"It takes away from the core of what makes games great: The ability to give players agency over their own world and story."
That's just your opinion, doesn't help that you're basically implying over 99% of games are bad because you can't just waltz up to the final boss/level right from the get-go. Do you even consider what your argument implies?
6:40
"Pure boredom of looking at my map and knowing I need to go exploring the same areas again."
You shouldn't play any non-linear games then. You should only play games that keep you railroaded on a specific path, that way there's no risk of "boring backtracking"
Metroidvanias, and exploration in general, clearly isn't for you.
7:48
"Don't gatekeep the fun and intrigue from everyone just because you have a specific vision for your game that's what movies are for"
Do you even hear yourself right now? You're saying you know better than all these game designers just because you personally don't like how they design things. That's fine, but you're implying your way is objectively better and not a personal preference, which is so pretentious it hurts.
12:16
"I can see a counterargument that I'm basically saying metroidvanias aren't good and should be a different genre instead, which is kind of a non-argument."
It's absolutely an argument. You don't like metroidvanias, but trying to pretend that's the games fault and not your inability to find enjoyment in exploration is the issue.
13:51
"Metroidvanias as they stand now are fully linear experiences disguised as games with choice."
"It was never a choice at all, and again, that's for the realm of movies not games."
If they were linear I don't think you'd be complaining since there'd be no backtracking, the antithesis of your ideal game. Again, any game with exploration as a core of its game design is inevitably going to encourage backtracking so you can find things you missed in previous areas. You do not understand that and these ridiculous takes make that clear.
14:18
"And they also could learn a thing or two from rougelikes and craft worlds that aren't so static."
This is perhaps the worst take in the video since it implies that metroidvanias are static and never change which obviously isn't true since plenty of them have worlds that change as you progress. Secondly, roguelikes overwhelming use procederally generated levels, and that is definitely not what I'd want in my ideal exploration game. I don't want to explore whatever the algorithm decided to barf up, exploration is not where the fun of rougelikes is.
Fundamentally this whole video is you complaining you can't immediately do everything in a game all at once and being offended at the idea of backtracking and exploring previous areas and trying to pass it off as you being "too intelligent" for that.
I didn’t mean it like “I’m smart double jump is coming” I meant it as in anyone would know that which is why I made the intelligence comment, thank you for watching by the way
And my argument was it IS linear, looking at my map and having to find a specific key to a door is linear to me,
And I mentioned I like backtracking, that wasn’t the point, the point is more I don’t like game design where it just is “can’t do this go back and search all the spots you’ve already been” as opposed to coming up with solutions on the fly. I totally see your side though for sure and I think a lot of it comes down to it’s just not my style of game, but that’s not REALLY what I’m getting at, I’m getting at that I think it’s insulting to every player (not me like you presume I was saying) to show them the answer but not allow them to do it, instead forcing them to retread steps already taken to look for the key. And thank you for watching I do appreciate the feedback and support!
@@FranklyGaming or you can find a way around a door, instead of complaining about how a door functions. Lol.
@@FranklyGaming that's what we have minecraft and botw for. You're argument was that all games should be like those 2 games. In a nutshell.
Everything you just described that you like is called an “immersive sim” and is a completely different genre. Metroidvanias don’t need to become immersive sims.
Your points get stronger later on especially with the Prey example. Giving the player the option to progress however they want could make a game extremely fun. It actually takes the skill and ingenuity of the player into account. However, it could be argued that both experiences are valuable. Even though a player may not be able to do everything immediately, that limitation can help the player get good at the base mechanics and use their ingenuity at getting good with those first. It doesn't gatekeep the player but rather pushes them to use the skills they do have to get stronger. I will agree with you in terms of level up systems though. Especially for games like Metroidvanias it makes get stronger a superficial task rather than being something the player themselves actually achieved via skill and ingenuity.
You don't get the idea of the genre you are talking about. Metroidvania's whole appeal is to backtrack constantly, trying to find all secrets for 100% completion. If it's not your thing - that's alright, but making a video about something you just don't understand is counterproductive.
Yes is like complaining for a horror movie being scary
A lot of what you said can be applied to basically most games out there and not just MVs-not respecting the player's intelligence, hand-holding, etc....
I love immersive sims like Prey but it's a fact that:
1- These games are so hard to make
2- They are niche and the design philosophy of embracing player's agency is something that most gamers out there actually don't want that much, so these games end up not selling enough.
I personally love metroidvanias for what they are-games that let you start with a weak character and slowly become a god. This type of progression is much more appealing to people than throwing you into a sandbox with all or most of the tools and telling you "go bonkers". I'd personally take the immersive sim approach any time but it can be a bit overwhelming for people.
Your points are interesting but would indeed change the core of MVs which can be good actually. it'd be intriguing to see metroidvanias take an approach that emphasises player expression more.
I would actually like to disagree a little bit with you point doesn't mean your opinion isn't valid, but here we go
first of all the thing about you said it being linear hidden in a multichoice game. it's wrong about hollow knight (not talking about others than hk), as you said there are many ways to go rather than just fighting the first boss and going to green path like
bottom right of greenpath you do a shade skip to get right into the resting grounds, than you can collect enough geo to buy the lumafly lantern and go to crystal peaks. Then from greenpath without the dash you could go to the fog canyon to queens garden to the fungal wastes with a the help of using your fireball, point being there are many of these areas in the game and yet the player doesn't use their intelligence to figure to these out and go through these. Yes, there are quite alot of ways locked down but those parts are part of every game and I would definitely say it's much better than invisible barrier that don't get lifted till you do something
Your type of games are basically open world games where you can do everything. Some games just aren't just these types of games as you said your basically telling them to change the genre as well. The developer has a direction they would like to go in so play if you like and not if you don't
again I might be biased in favour of hollow knight since it was the first pc game I ever played and my favourite till now
still love your channel learned about prey from you and played it and it was damn glorious
Ya I think this is a really great point especially for hollow knight there is multiple ways I guess my bigger issue is certain obstacles still required one specific answers like say wall jumping in hollow knight, I think it’s actually technically really good design too it just isn’t as much for me I guess.
And thanks for watching and leaving feedback I love the discussions
@@FranklyGaming no problem man always my pleasure love your content
I feel like this just comes down to how you fundamentally like to play games. Forgive me if im reading it wrong but it seems you really value being able to do things how you want and not really wanting to follow a ridged path. For me I don't really care if the path if set in stone as long as the journey down the path is a good one.
As for me, I prefer it when games are more rigid. Of course I will always appreciate games allowing for player expression and games that account for many different things the player can do, but at a certain point a free-form game becomes less "how will I choose to tackle this" and more "what is the game even expecting of me". Some sim games are the worst at that because there is no end goal, you just play until you don't want to anymore which leaves me feeling the game has less content to show than it actually does. A good example is The Forest. I recently found out about it earlier this year and saw the overwhelmingly positive reviews, then decided to watch a video to see if I would like it as there are some games like it I want (such as Raft). But as the video continued talking about The Forest, I just kept thinking "so when will the video get to the part that will make it all click" up until at least 75% of the video when I realized that was never gonna come.
For me, that kind of free-form experimentation is the bane of having fun with a game. If my experiment fails, it discourages me from trying things like it since the game taught me that won't work. Meanwhile if my experiment is a success, I am encouraged to use that solution more often in place of experimenting further even if my solution was way suboptimal. The best way to get me to start engaging with experimentation is if I'm playing the game with friends. Experimenting with something dumb will either cause a laugh if it fails or awe if it somehow works, and I would never have tried that solo. Conversely, I could start experimenting with making things better if I see one of my friends doing something better and copying what they did. The problems with that are that my friends aren't always available, I won't play a game solo because it's better with friends, my friends simply can't get every game, and there isn't always that guarantee one of those games will even have multiplayer.
So of course, I fundamentally disagree with Frank's entire viewpoint. I not only think he's missing the point of Metroidvanias, but I also don't understand how his revisions would be beneficial to the genre. I could see and even enjoy a Metroidvania game or two taking on more immersive sim elements, but I think trying to revise a fundamental part of the genre such as the acquisition of power-ups and re-exploring areas to see where your new ability can get you overlooks what makes that fun, and then on top of that claiming that design decision is disrespectful to player intelligence reeks of entitlement. Finding somewhere that you need a double jump of some kind to reach isn't "this is a puzzle that I know the answer to but the game won't let me solve it until it lets me". At worst it's a gate to prevent you from going somewhere you aren't prepared for, in the middle it's a promise that what's over there will be worth it so you better remember it, and at best (for Frank at least) you can skip the "puzzle" and reach what's over there early and be rewarded with some way that makes the early game a bit easier. When I reach an ability that allows me to "solve" a "puzzle", I don't think "oh the game wants me to Backtrack(TM) (derogatory) now", I think of all the areas this could allow me to get to and get excited about how this could be used to open more paths and how it could affect and build off the movement I know already.
Do I think Frank's arguments are entirely without merits? Of course not. If he doesn't like Metroidvanias and prefers games that give him more freedom of expression that's totally fine and I respect that opinion. But I think he should just let go of Metroidvanias if he dislikes core tenets of what makes a Metroidvania a Metroidvania. Saying that the ONLY way a Metroidvania can respect the player's intelligence is by having the problems be able to be solved at any time from the character's base abilities is in itself, disrespectful to every other form of intelligence there is, as well as disrespectful to games that don't (or can't) conform to that style of gameplay. Hollow Knight is not Prey, nor does it have to be. To say otherwise diminishes what it tests standalone.
I for one think that Prey should be more like Hollow Knight.
😂😂 my journey to explain why every game should be prey continues lol. Appreciate the support as always man
tl;dr tl;dr: Your argument is that Metroidvania's would benefit from player empowerment with sandbox elements. I would argue that is like telling Mario fans they would like their game more if Mario was in a big interconnected map like Metroid.
Full:
My good faith understanding of your argument is: "Metroidvania's would benefit from having more of a tool-box for progression from the start rather than gating those tools across the map. This would allow more player control/expression over their journey which is the point of videogames." (This came more from your clarifying comments than your video though).
tl;dr for my rebuttal: So long as video games are to be treated as an art like books/movies/music. Then it should be understood that different genres appeal to different people because of the tools they use. Metroidvania's fit well for someone who wants more power growth and less linearity than Mario but still wants catered level design. While Immerssive sims fit for people who want the tools of a sandbox some directions as to where to aim said tools.
Full:
This argument assumes a few things I would argue is relatively toxic for game development/review.
1. Game design linearly progresses towards the "ideal game"
2. Games are inherently about player expression and control.
To address the first assumption: Games are as much an art as film/books/paintings, through a large variety of styles they are able to appeal to different people. Metroidvania's and conventional platformers are both (relatively) linear in progression. But Mario breaks up its progression through level select screens and Ori breaks it up through aquisition of powerups. Both accomplish the ability to tailor increasingly difficult areas around different abilities but they appeal to different people.
To address the second point: Games can be as much or more of a playground for the developer or writer than the player. There are experiences that can only be told through a game. Disempowering stories, stories involving a sense of connection you can only get through interactivity, levels meant to push specific skills to the limit.
Metroidvania's often use powerups to differentiate "levels" rather than a Mario-style level select. Metroidvania's can use a double jump to make the player stronger rather than make them practice a dodge roll. Metroidvania's will vary between the escape-sequence movement heavy Metroid inspiration and the combat power-growth orientation of Castlevania to the reaction speed + navigation of Dark Souls/Hollow Knight.
Immersive sims seem to cater to what you like as Metroidvania systems seem to cater to what fans such as me like.
Side/personal note: A lot of people seem to miss the incredible diversity in Metroidvania's though. I like the Metroidvania's more focused on movement than anything else. Ori 1 is my bread and butter for the escape sequences and movement-ability focused upgrades (I never touch the combat tree), it and Metroid-y games like it also give you good direction on where to go next. But there is the action platformer Castlevania-style that is enjoyable as well, where you get mostly combat upgrades and maybe two or three movement options. And the current trend that dominates the genre is the Dark-Souls inspired Hollow-Knight which focuses heavily on your navigation skills and reaction speeds due to its punishing world/fights (my absolute least favourite of the three and it pains me that Ori 2 built so heavily into this). It is like talking about racing games but not distinguishing between Kart Racers, Arcade Racers, and Racing Sims.
Really great write up I appreciate you taking the time to watch and respond! I pretty much agree on everything for example you are right there shouldn’t be one “right” way to design games and people have different tastes for sure. Like you said metroidvanias can be see as having a sense of structure and linearity without going full freedom like an immersive sim, it’s not inherently bad to do either.
I think the main issue with my argument is I am kind of just saying yes, as unpopular as I knew saying this would be, I think metroidvanias at their core are just bad design.
It was tough making the argument too because I totally agree maybe I just need to open my mind more everyone likes different stuff, but there are games I hate playing but respect a lot like say fighting games. Great design but I don’t like them at all, doesn’t mean they are bad.
But for metroidvanias every time I play any I enjoy have a good time, but I honestly just sit there and think to myself as much as I hate feeling this way I think this is just inherently bad design, as I’m not because I prefer immersive sims, but because it’s actually just bad design that can be solved and be objectively better. But once again that’s also just my own bigotry and bias lol.
So it’s tough because I actually 100% agree with what you are saying but truly deep down can’t help but shake the feeling that these aren’t just “not my type of game” they are inherently not good design on so many level in terms of human psychology etc. I think it’s such a tough argument to make through especially when objectively people like them so you could argue my opinion is invalid in that sense.
I knew this video would be received horribly but it’s truly what I believe and I think being able to say what you truly think is important, as well as hearing others like you out too for sure. Thanks again!
@@FranklyGaming Is something being uncomfortable for the player necessarily "bad design"?
People praise that in the Souls games they have the chance of losing all their souls. That causes discomfort and frustration (to the point I quit Shovel Knight for having a similar system). I only cried out of love for Kingdom Hearts because of all the hours of *boring* gameplay of KH 358/Days to contrast the story. People getting blue-shelled in Mario Kart is painful for the most skillful player but makes it so friend groups can even out their placements a bit more (meaning a more fun experience overall).
So I raise the question to you again. If it enhances a select population's experiences to the exclusion of others, is it bad design?
I responded a bit frustrated in another comment chain before seeing you replied here comparing games to books. And that is how I see them. Ori and the Blind Forest is a hair's width away from being my ideal Metroidvania, but the sequel went in the complete opposite direction. I just view it as a book in a different series meant for a different audience at that point.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 ya I definitely get that for me hard games or putting you through pain etc can be a very good thing, it’s more I guess I just disagree with how metroidvanias are designed, because I find the challenge is not a good challenge and the reward is pointless I guess is how I would put it. I actually 100% agree people can see it as a good thing like you said something that contrasts the other parts of the game I just don’t think it is designed well when compared to other ways it could be done, but I mean it’s a subjective thing people love them and that’s great just how I see it
I usually love your videos, but this one, not so much. First, minor nitpick, but you showed footage of the NES Castlevanias as examples of Metroidvanias. They are not Metroidvanias. Second, you're saying people's fun is wrong. Metroidvanias aren't for you. They aren't for me either, but that doesn't make them bad. As you said, you think Metroidvanias should completely change how they operate, but that change would make them different, not better. While it would make them funner for you, it would make them less fun for many others. You're like someone saying that hard games shouldn't be made because you don't like hard games. Just accept that a game can be both a masterpiece and not for you.
Ya I totally see this side, I was more trying to get at I really do just think that type of game design is flawed in many ways, because it forces you down specific paths while dangling something on a stick which forces backtracking through already explored areas.
I see what you are saying and ya a lot of it for sure is I just don’t like the genre as much as others but I can’t help but escape that feeling when I’m playing that it’s just designed in an offensive way. It’s offensive to me seeing the answer and knowing what to do but forcing me to go places I already have to get it done.
It’s the same for me as having really bad Side fetch quests in an RPG it’s almost objectively bad in many ways at least in terms of there is obvious ways to improve it.
But sure some people could also argue fetch quests are actually good and they like it but sometimes you have to have an opinion that’s more fun I guess which is what this video is lol
@FranklyGaming In future, please try to speak in less objective terms when speaking of a controversial subject. If you're willing.
@@hudsondeweerd3910 ya I tried to here as much as possible but definitely pretty strong willed on my opinion here for sure I knew this one would be not be received well as I said in the video but I would rather actually have an opinion and be willing to back it up. I really appreciate the feedback though thank you! It helps me improve a lot on tackling subjects like this and the best ways to do it so thank you for the support!
@FranklyGaming An explanation of Castlevanias not being Metroidvanias. Early Castlevanias on the NES, SNES, Gameboy, and Genesis were mostly linear. Castlevania 2 Simon's Quest (not to be confused with Castlevania 2 Belmont's Revenge, which was one of the best games on the original Gameboy) had some Metroidvania elements, but wasn't one in full. Castlevania Symphony of the Night was the first Metroidvania Castlevania, and all the games on the PS1, GBA, and DS were Metroidvanias. Does that make sense?
@@hudsondeweerd3910 oh ya I definitely agree as to modern medtroidvanias I guess it all came from somewhere though which is more what I meant with the roots etc
Introducing new mecanics as the game progress is a great way to allow the player to slowly master the gameplay (and diversify the experience). Giving all the tools, as you suggest, at the beginning and making it easier and easier as the game progress has two inconvenients : It may overwhelmed some player at the very start of the game. It may be boring, because there isn't new elements of gameplay to discover as you play. So no, there is absolutely no flaw about the structure of Ori. It's a very simple but effective design choice.
Ya agree there 100% I should have specified the game itself should still become harder but that those challenges are solvable even with early mechanics if need be I think it’s just more interesting that way
This is a small problem I’ve had with rain world since I started playing it. At first you think the controls are wonky, but then you realize that there are complex inputs that result in different movement techniques and you also get better at manipulating it’s unique procedural animation system to work in your favor. I don’t think it’s better or worse than unlocking and being told how to do all the different movement techs since it’s fun finding things out through experimentation, but I can see the annoyances in both systems. It seems like it’s preferential at the end of the day as both approaches to mechanics have their pros and cons
@@FranklyGamingLet’s put your view into other games that you like. You think cyberpunk would be fun with all enhancements auto unlocked or Subnatica with all vehicles and buildings pre built or Oblivion as Spiffing Brits character. No they would be shit and same with these games like Hollow Knight as you’ve already become the most powerful and everything is a breeze so then it would be mindless like how you call the current system
@@wasteplace1705 Rainworld is a great counter-example but it definitely add new elements of gameplay as the game progress. For instance, the grappling worms, the flying squids, the giant deers or the light mouse that you are forced to use to pass some areas. The difference with Ori being that the way to use those things are not smashed into your face. You pretty much have to figure how to use those things by yourself when you are stuck somewhere.
Also, the movement in this game is complex. I've finished the game without using it at its fullest. But at some points, you are forced to use those weird movement mecanics and it certainly does feel to good to figure it out by yourself rather than being told what you are supposed to do. The game is just smart enough to make you understand that you have to learn something new by yourself.
@@megadrillubreaker8817 I’d probably make the distinction that those new elements are different than the movement mechanics you have from the start of the game since they’re more item/environment based, especially because of how the world works in spite of the player and not for or because of them. But they definitely are new additions that push you to keep playing and looking for new ones down the line. All games kinda need to have variety or an abundance of content that keeps things fresh the whole way through or else they can suffer pacing or gameplay issues. Rain world and Hollow Knight definitely aren’t lacking in either of those things but different ppl will appreciate or be put off by certain aspects of those games regardless of how polished and nuanced the games are, I know I was more thrown off at first by rain worlds approach than hollow knights but they’re going for different experiences and I appreciated the commitment both those games had to their gameplay, story, and aesthetic
Great video mate! I think commercial Metroidvanias could definitely learn a thing or two from fan games metroidvanias, like AM2R and Metroid Planets Enigma.
i have a question for you ! If the way to pass an obstacle was unknown to you, would it be okay to come black later for it ?
Exemple, the dark gates in hollow knight, you don't really know how to pass them, you really don't have a clue at the start and when you unlock dash, you think that's the tool for it right ? But it's not.
Well in a certain way i think this is frustrating too but anyway.
Is what's your saying :
"I know how to go there but i can't caus i don't have the tool yet. That's annoying" or
"I have to backtrack so much in the game. That's annoying"
I think the dark gate was a bad exemple, but my opinion after watching your video is that, game should try to make the obstacles less obvious and more "natural". To keep the hollow night exemple, the isma tear or whatever its name is, is great.
The acid puddle are not often suspected to be "obstacles".
So what do you think ?
Less backtrack (well it's the same as les metroid ;-;)
Or better way to introduces game progression with better tool/obstacles.
Or even add multiple way to pass an obstacle (so a bit like open world)
The whole argument is baffling bad, I don't get how people are so drunk on marketing ideas to go as far to equate linearity with being a bad that is not respecting the intelligence of the audience, games can be about telling just one single linear plot, good luck making some horror without controlling the pacing they also can be just about the pure skill challenge and gate off levels until you have the tools that you need to progress is the only way to avoid wasting people time trying to do some impossible jump and not the idea that you should be able to do anything from the start is not a good one, a lot of games get harder the more that you unlock things not easier so good luck doing that if the powers are just there to lessen the challenge.
I swear people like this just use buzzwords like "gatekeeping" "freedom" and "expression " to try to sound smart but seems like they had only played " The Stanley Parable" and other fart sniffing nonsense, to anyone else that at least takes a second to think about it should be obvious why most games can not work as a simulator and even if they could that not be necessarily a good thing.
Hey freis! Thanks for watching I do appreciate the feedback too it helps me improve my content, when I was saying gatekeeping I mean it in the sense that I don’t like that style of game design I get why others do I just really do think it can be improved by relaying more on a player thinking a way out of a situation with existing solutions rather than the answer being you haven’t found the answer yet if that makes sense.
I get why people like the games for sure though and like I mention in the video it’s good game design it’s just not what I think it could be.
Thanks again for taking the time to watch!
I enjoyed Hollow Knight more than most metroidvanias because there was multiple ways to progress into each area. I also oddly have a memory that only works on locations so i barely reference maps compared to most people (too bad my memory cant be used for anything practical career wise) A reslly cool thing in this videl is I originally did not see prey as a metroidvania but I love that thats the way it was discribed here. It really was and I have never played a game that made me feel like I was outsmarting it and always rewarded me for experimenting with my options. Great video!
MV are the type of games that thrive on secret areas and hard blocks. It is the sense of progression that many people play for. Good upgrades also give very compelling reason to search for secrets, which you would essentially kill off. this is not PROBLEMATIC nor BAD DESIGN, you have to make peace with the fact that not every game is for you. I don't force myself to play shooters because I don't enjoy some parts, not to mention that what you described already exists - those are platformers
Sounds like want “Infovanias”. Rain World and Toki Tori 2 are really good ones.
The sentiment of this video has resonated with me in a way you probably wouldn't have expected (in the true spirit of immersive sims).
I'll start with some context.
Modded Minecraft is a game - no, a genre of game - rather unique compared to most other games one may choose to mod. Mostly because the mods and modpacks can be as large, if not larger in content and possibilities, than the core game itself. Got 5 basic ores? How about 20 more. Got 3 dimensions? Here's another 40. I've spent many years playing the different variations in the form of various modpacks and versions. I've learned a lot of good tricks that can boost me through progression or accomplish tasks some may think impossible...
And then I got invited to play an "expert" modpack. Considering myself, well, _an expert_ at this point, I gladly agreed. Sure, it was a bit more mainstream compared to the things I typically enjoy playing... But that was fine, as long as it had all these nice mod combos I knew and loved.
And then, my enthusiasm fell flat less than a week in. The pack was carefully designed and tweaked in such a way as to avoid any ways a player may access things from the next "tier" up unless they get there in a "conventional" way. The creator of the pack even patched workarounds right as I would discover them!..
That was a literal gameplay hell for me.
Every single thing I loved about the game - the openness to creative solutions, the interesting combinations of mods, the applicability of the previously learned skills - was taken away from me by railroading my progression in a way that I frankly must call... Masterful.
It was as though the notion of being _an expert_ was flipped on its head. As though instead of being challenged and left to figure out the challenge on my own, the author insisted that they have to hold my hand through all of it (not in the cute sense, in the restrictive sense). They did not respect my intelligence.
The sad part about this story is that this type of modpack is highly praised and largely loved by a huge part of the community.
It leaves me wanting to make an antithesis to it someday. An anti-"expert" modpack. A true expert pack.
Just have fun bro
People playing rdr2 raging rn
Thanks for watching!
😂
@@FranklyGaming By the way thanks to your video actually buy the game pray because you keeps talking about every single time you're video and I'm having a so much fun with it for now I hope Alex is a good man
@@cvatvbizarreadventure glad to hear I could convince some people to buy it haha, once your done think you would love mooncrash too
This vid sounds a bit like a preference thing. You might be projecting a little. A lot of people who love hollow knight/MVs get huge fun and satisfaction out of putting the map together in their mind. Finding a power up is an "a hah" moment that rewards careful attention to the map and where you've been and what the best routes are. I personally don't enjoy it as much as prey either but I think they're different beasts. Prey is one of my favourite games of all time. I really like hollow knight too.
I think you just miss the point of the game genre. My brain never shuts off when playing. And everything you say about prey is in a lot if not all Metroidvania. There are multiple ways to do things. I’m fairly certain that glue gun thing was intended. It was just something that happen.
Solid video. I can see your points and there’s some validity here, but for me I don’t think it’s true in all cases. Like I get your point to the value of games giving players tools to allow more complete control over their experiences. And I would enjoy more games of that nature. But I also think there is space for games that are giving a very specific experience that is presented in an intentional and structured way. Some people will argue that is closer to a movie and that’s true, but I don’t think that’s inherently bad as long as it’s deliberately made in that way and the players are deliberately engaging with it as such. I loved Prey and it’s approach to handing all tools to the player and setting them loose. But I also loved The Outer Wilds and it being very intentionally and specifically crafted for players to follow and intentional patterns and bread crumbs to solve a deliberately crafted mystery. There’s room for all kinds of games and I personally can enjoy almost all kinds of games as long as they are well made.
"I'm going to play a game I know I won't like, and then I'm going to complain that I didn't like it." Hey man, I don't like curry, so you know what I do? I don't eat curry.
The game doesn't respect your intelligence because you apparently don't have any intelligence to respect. Absolute midwit take. "I know I need to rescue Peach, making me defeat Bowser is a waste of my time, I know what I need to do". Maybe get a puzzle book or something instead?
Thanks for watching my man haha. Not sure if you watched the whole thing but it is more about how I think some design elements could improve I totally see why people like it though but definitely think there is flaws or rather things that are uninteresting about it
There are many ways to sequence break in Hollow Knight if you want to play it efficiently and "intelligently". Perhaps check out some no major glitches speedruns for inspiration :-)
I would like to ask your opinion on games that gate keep useing levels aka turn based rpgs or are u also not an rpg guy cuz the way ur taking u sound like a person that likes game that depend on. Skills more then management since rpgs gate keeping by levels is almost the same thing as items Minus the backtracking
Ya I definitely see what you are saying I would say the difference there is with “levels” in RPGs it’s strategic how you power up your character and your party and you are building towards your specific fantasy for role play and combat, often higher level zones can be tackled as well if you are good at the game depends on the game though, so for ones where an area is gated and you have to reach a specific level I agree with what you are saying it’s weird I don’t get mad at that but do get mad at metroidvanias. First of all I would say I do agree that I would prefer RPGs to give you more freedom even in those cases, but for metroidvanias specifically the core of the issue for me is they show you an easy to solve problem and then force you to search for a solution you already understand. In RPGs sure levels are gated but it’s solution is not something you are forced to find, it’s obvious, go level up. But in metroidvanias it’s “oh I need double jump”, “god dammit where the hell is double jump”. That question right there doesn’t require thought, and even if you know where it is ok so now you have to backtrack just to get it lol?
I do 100% see what you are saying thought because even in that case for RPGs you could say “well why do I have to go level up”. But it’s just inherently different I would say, but also yes I prefer rpgs not to do that as well, I would argue that is a design I don’t like either
@@FranklyGaming u actually replied most UA-camrs don’t have the time to do that I appreciate your dedication
@@FranklyGamingmost people problem with metrovainas is that they get lost easily and don’t see a purpose to continue while other people (I’m one of them) love the feeling of the unknown and we find the feeling of curiosity on your way to use the item that u unknowingly found to be worth the backtrack as while I’m backtracking my thought process is “what is behind that door, what goodies am I gonna get, how strong will I be after going thru this previously locked section , will it change the way I play the game )so backtracking doesn’t feel as repetitive and reaching a dead end just feels like (alright not this way let’s try the other way ) so it depends highly on your mindset and how u think of games an example would be a would absolutely hate replaying metrovainas cuz the couriosty is dead
Side note: people find it kinda of offensive that u said prey is a metrovainas while people think of it as a immersive sim so it’s like saying bioshock is the best shooter of all time
Other side note : I find it strange u don’t talk about dishonored as the series is my fav immersive sim franchise and would be a amazing example in most videos of yours
I enjoyed the video and share your opinions entirely on the matter. While HK remains one of my favorite video games, with time grew the impression of artificiality. Deep down in me, I feel like these locks play AGAINST the game, but I will have to test this assumption at some point in my life (I'm a dev :D).
- Locks are super artificial, obvious and stop you right away like "No, you can't have fun, see you later." This forces the player to backtrack, and have a good memory, that's it. Brilliant game design !
- Locks do make these games more linear, which they pretend not to be lol.
- Locks reduce both player agency and replayability, which isn't great.
-> Agency because it reduces the pathing possibilities. If HK didn't have all these stupid locks, we could have enjoyed so many ways to actually explore its marvelous world !
-> Hence less replayability.
I feel like this is not so about a problem with metroidvanias, and more so a personal preference of not liking the genre as a majority.
The backtracking in Metroidvanias get on my nerve. It's why I hate that genre.
I guess I see where you're coming from but I don't agree at all. This design to me, makes the entire world feel more cohesive as an actual world instead of just "level 1, level 2, level 3". Your improved kit typically makes coming back to these zones way easier too so you don't spend nearly as much time there and can feel the pure difference between how you used to be and how you are now.
Players play games for different reasons and different incentives. It's clear those incentives don't align with your version of fun, but that doesn't make the games wrong. I do thing your word choice presents your opinion kind of arrogant however. Honestly I think Prey is pretty solid but not the greatest while Hollow Knight is one of my favorite games of all time and does very little wrong.
You know what doesnt respect you intelligence more? Those Playstation first party games. They even keep telling you how to solve some obstacles in the game.
I have held this same opinion for so long. but anytime I try to explain it the response is always "you're just bad". It's extremely frustrating and I hope this video helps people to recognize how I feel. A problem with hollow knight I don't believe you mentioned is the when you die you drop everything and have to go pick it up. that mechanic was fun at the start but it just becomes another tedious thing to back track after the 5th time.
Oh ya that mechanic is annoying for sure too I wanted to mention more things like that but didn’t really tie into the main point I’d say. Also thanks so much for watching
@@FranklyGaming As somebody, who has finished OG "Dark souls", I agree to your conclusion in your "Elden ring" stream - "It does not have tedium of 1990s games, but also do not treat the player as moron like 2000s games". That is why I started "Hollow knight", defeated the lady Hollow knight and was "K, this is like Dark souls, and I already finished that game, I have nothing to prove with this game."
I disagree with the assumption that linear experiences are not worthy videogames, and that includes exploration masquerading as nonlinear but hiding a true linear path. It certainly can be lame to have your progress blocked by an obstacle that will later be overcome with a tired and obvious upgrade like a double jump, and so it's important for metroid-likes to avoid overly familiar design tropes. But the overall structure of ability-gated exploration remains pleasurable. The best of the genre allow for a ridiculous degree of sequence breaking, which may resolve your issues by giving you ways to play smarter when just enjoying the ride isn't good enough.
Then play rabi ribi, there you can finish the whole game with 0% items and there's plenty of ways to get anywhere you want by taking full advantage of the mechanics
But most people won't play because of the anime style.
People complain about games being too similar but don't try anything new just because it's different
You would probably love Outer Wilds. Nice video & good points.
OMG back to Prey. Of course.
Take a shot everytime I mention prey in a video 😂😂
I almost downloaded Prey on PS Plus. We’ll see if you can ever convince me to do it.
@@FranklyGamingNot as crazy as "Cyberpunk" in this channel
@@copiumkiller 🤣
100% agree with you on this subject, I know a lot of people will probably not like your opinion but I think it’s a fair point, people need to understand that not everyone has the same opinion on things.
Yeah, hollow knights progression sucked. I was always thinking, "Great. Gotta go find this obvious move that I can't find. Let's go walk around for hours because I can't get on this ledge." Great game, though. Metroidvanias ain't it for sure, but I like em sometimes
100% on the same wavelength here, still liked playing hollow knight and ori
I dislike knowing the mechanical solution and having to go dig it up unless the game finds a way to make that experience entertaining, but this take is also just not well thought out. We live in an internet age, it's almost impossible to expect players not to look up information on games because they know it's available. Yes they can will themselves not to use it but it's not a logically sound decision to go into something which you know information is available on to help curate your experience without having at least skimmed that information. Any such skimming is going to alert a player regardless of ingenuity or skill level to the glue gun skip and players who aren't skilled enough to do it right away may just get frustrated and bail on the game tbh. That being said nobody will likely use the "regular" path because the information on the "skip" path will be so readily available that all but those with the most exceptional willpower would have to make a bad faith decision not to find out about it.
In a pre-internet world your assertions would hold a lot more water, unfortunately, that genie has been uncorked and is not going back anytime soon. This is why so many games that value exploration specifically attempt to provide an overwhelming number of things to explore because then even when documented there is the chance the player will come across something that slipped through the cracks of their research.
I always have to argue with people that "metroidvania" doesn't apply exclusively to 2D/2.5D sidescrollers.
Ya I get what people are saying there but the core tenets of the genre can be applied to 3d too or in other types of games like prey too
Metroid prime is a prime example of that.
Personally, as someone who has over 540 hours in hollow knight...I liked it when I first played, but now that I've played several times it's just not the same and it gets tiresome. Still love it though.
It is a fantastic game, just not my style I guess, and thanks for watching!
@FranklyGaming no problem! Oh, and on this topic, you can actually get to places without a double jump or anything like that using nailbounces, which are sometimes speedrunner tactics but also not really? Idk if team cherry intended it but it works!
It strikes me as a game with not so stellar replay value. I could be super wrong but I’ve tried to beat it a few times and once you know a route and you know what you need to get through the route, other than the enemy/boss encounters, it almost plays itself. I’m not sure if that’s hollow knight exclusive or is something MV games in general struggle with but replay value is a big deal for me personally, so I got tired of hollow knights game structure. Strangely enough tho I’ve replayed castlevania symphony of the night like 3-4 times now so maybe there’s something else to hollow knight that puts me off lol
Pseud moment
Thanks for watching haha
Judging by the comments and like ratio, you probably wouldn't have gotten so many dislikes if you specified that the various bosses would have to be balanced to account for the fact that you could fight them in almost any order, depending on which "puzzles" you just happened to solve first.
EDIT: It also looks like part of the issue is that it isn't entirely clear if Metroidvanias are all about "finding keys" or "solving movement puzzles", and if it's the former, should the genre make a transition to the latter? The fact that Super Metroid is a key finder for first time players and a puzzle solver for expert wall jumpers makes the definition of a Metroidvania kind of ambiguous.
Ya good points I think I could have been more clear on a lot of things and presented better I appreciate the feedback helps me do better critiques in the future always learning
keep up the fire ass content man. 100k subs comin soon
Really appreciate that!
Ah my fellow Prey lover. Dude you make such great videos. I'll have to get you to collaborate on a Prey video one day.
Appreciate that my man! Always down for prey collabs
@@FranklyGaming I'll keep that in mind when I get around to making my next video on it. I actually have one older video and a new one coming out in a few weeks.
I keep going into hollow knight intending to actually beat it. Only for the roadblock to be that zone out.
Ironically the only Metroid Vania I don't tire of are metroids.
Every thought I've had about games I feel you make into videos a week later it's brilliant 😂
Prey is amazing I blitzed through that game twice it was amazing, I felt like I was flowing through it steady or cheating with some goofy tactic like I do other games BUT THATS THE POINT OF THE GAME
Play with the mechanics. Enjoy. Gloo
Glad you enjoyed haha and thanks for watching!
You seem like a thoughtful person, very emotional I would say (in a good way), I watched some of your videos and really like how you analyze emotional aspects of games.
But I must say that you showed here real lack of objectivity, that game analyses must have.
First of all, do not take this as "hate" comment. I think you will benefit from constructive criticism, if you have healthy self-criticism of course.
In short: If you don't like the game, it just means you don't like the game, lol
In video game analyses from people like Marc Brown or Jacob Geller, you'll see the level of critical thinking they have, while still not missing to throw in their own, subjective, opinion about game, how it emotionally and psychologically affected them, still maintaining objectivity that such an analyses should have.
It seems that you are trying to make some logical explanation for emotional state that game left you in, but instead of critically analyzing whats really going on you are by default blaming the game (or whole genre in this case). Games can, and many are, designed badly, but you are confusing bad design with what you personally don't value in games. You are rhetorically not allowing other opinions on this genre to exist. You made some very bold claims, but all that is based on your subjectivity. Comment section here is really good indicator of how subjective this video is.
From my experience, most of the times the "problem" is me. Either I have certain expectations of what the game should be like, and totally miss beauty it holds as is. Other times I'm not capable of investing certain amount and/or type of attention/mental energy into playing.
But some times the game simply is not for me, AND THAT'S OK!
If I don't like the game it just means I don't like the game ;)
thanks for the feedback I appreciate it! Ya it is tough because honestly it is a pretty emotional argument but I see it as very logical but that could be me blinded by the emotion, bringing up Prey is that specific analysis I am trying to get at of this is why I think metroidvania's are not good design along with the specific examples I gave like doors that require specific keys that require backtracking and why that is bad compared to prey.
Probably is harder for me to see since it's harder to look at your own stuff objectively but I need to do a better job of analyzing it myself since it seems so many didn't find the analysis here objective, even though when I watch it back even months later I see it as completely objective and fine but just not what people want to hear
do you have any feedback on how you think I could do it better by the way? Because I really do appreciate trying to grow and improve especially from you guys who like the content just hard for me to identify lol
@@FranklyGaming Let's have one thought experiment.
Imagine that you are only person on earth that plays video games, and then you say "metroidvanias are bad because XYZ, they should change", why wouldn't developers change the genre to suite your preference? I mean, that would be unreasonable, if 100% of players would like those games to be different, why wouldn't they alter the genre. Then they eliminate metroidvania genre completely and make your genre.
But then imagine that now there are on earth 20 of you who play games, and 2 of you would like metroidvanias to be different, but 18 out of 20 people really like the genre as it is. Why would then developers change WHOLE genre? It would make sense that they notice that there are 10% of people who do not like the genre, then they maybe hear your advice for genre change, and they say "hm, interesting idea, that would be actually whole new genre, mix of A and B, little of C, *etc.", then one smaller team of developers that share same idea as you 2 make the game by that idea, and they call it "Prey" :D. And everyone is happy, you got game that you really like, other people who like metroidvanias as they are are also happy because you didn't eliminated the whole genre, you just made one new genre, with new concepts, etc.
The point you can see from this is that your idea/perspective is valuable. That's how new genres are made, that is how world changes, because of new valuable perspectives and ideas.
But another point is that is UNREASONABLE thing is to say that this idea is THE IDEA, and that old one should not exist. You strongly advise that genre should change, that meaning that the new genre would rise, and old genre would fall. Your whole narrative in video really sounds like "metroidvania games devs are stupid and I'm smart, you should listen to me", which is totally unreasonable.
Today, lets say millions of players all over the world, and hundreds of thousands of them really like metroidvanias as they are currently. Why would someone destroy this genre? People would lose their beloved type of games, and you will get the type of games you always wanted... Instead, developers do what is most reasonable, they make new genres, they made Prey, new genres, types and ideas are constantly emerging, indie devs especially are constantly mixing ideas from different genres, experimenting with them, etc.
As per advice, idk, maybe you can analyze video game analyses from youtubers with channels closest to what you want yours to be, maybe then you'll see difference between your definition of "objectivity" and theirs.
Because whole point is that you weren't objective at all. You said that you now after many months still think you were objective, it seems like you have "feeling that you were objective", so maybe this really boils down to "healthy self-criticism" (in terms of "critical thinking") being the way to improve, idk.
Just don''t be discouraged by criticism you encounter here in comments, there are some really valuable ones, see them as opportunity to grow as a person, to rethink your perspectives, all that good stuff :D, and I believe that when you are better as a person then your videos will benefit too
@@dagance the feedback helps a ton thank you ! Will try to improve the writing in the future for sure to see both sides better
I do think that I don't like the...premise for your argument. A lot of people who play metroidvanias are often incredibly clever and metroidvanias actually can foster really fascinating speed running communities. Speedrunners are incredibly skilled and clever.
Then again, I hate when the argument against something is "this treats you like you're stupid" or "it's lazy design." I find the language to be incredibly demeaning to not just the people who enjoy those aspects over other genres, as it implies (unintentionally) that they either don't respect their own intelligence or are not interested in playing a game that's more clever. Not all games are puzzle games and you're more or less arguing for them to be so.
It's, to me, a very harmful form of arguing. It actually tends to put me off games or make me feel ashamed for liking games that I can actually play. I have bad eye-hand coordination. I can't play games that consistently demand I do things in a short amount of time or be overly accurate. Similarly, I actually find games like hollow knight or Ori where I have to remember where things are to be incredibly challenging to play, as it's asking me to take note of things I can't.
I have ADHD, which causes issues with my ability to remember. Similarly, I can't form mental images and lack the ability to create mental maps. It's why I hate when people insult the fact that Hollow Knight includes map markers or implies that they're useless. It's why I hate the argument that quest markers are intelligence-insulting.
Those aren't arguments against intelligence. They're arguments that only people who fall within specific categories should be catered to or that only specific genres should exist, both of which are awful and limiting arguments.
I understand having preferences. But say that, rather than pretending the issue is about intelligence. Metroidvanias bore you and lose your attention. That's not intelligence related. It doesn't mean it's lazy design.
I already know this video is going to be a banger, 270 views, 43 comments, 36 likes.
Ya it’s way more comments than usual probably because it will be very divisive, think it will lead to some cool discussion though lol
I generally agree about metroidvanias, but calling anything about a game "lazy" is objectively wrong. It can be bad, but if it were lazy the game wouldn't exist or be popular.
"Why can't I just run straight to Mother Brain and kill her with my normal beam?" this is what you sound like. if you don't like the genre, don't play it.
Yea if you put his logic onto other games he likes just imagine how brain numbing they would be like starting Oblivion and the end result of Spiffing Brits game or starting Cyperpunk with all enchantments
15:16 damn right the comment section going to be fun. Your opinions are interesting but your storytelling is wonderful, you flesh out your points well. However, your opinions are that you want a different game, which is respectable. However most people come in here expecting a critique of how to make something more of itself than more of something else. And they get this video, which isn’t bad. It just happens to be highly likely to make fans pretty unhappy, and both outer wilds and hollow knight, have very devoted fan bases. And they both have things to say about your videos. I would recommend not stirring the pot for a while. The outer wilds community is forgiving. I don’t know about hollow knight though.
Anyway have a good day/night.
Haha too true honestly I just get passionate about certain topics and really want to be some voice out there to hear the discussion, I knew this video wouldn’t be received well especially from the hollow knight community haha but I think it’s important to have discussions about how to improve things too and hopefully it gets some cool discussion going.
I do like more positive stuff usually but obviously gaming will have some strong options sometimes. And thanks for the support as always plover!
I hate classical RPG systems, because combat and usually the abilities are so boring. You stand and mindnumingly spam the abilities, who either deal direct damage or heal. That is why I love strategy games with grid, environment effects and utility abilities like mind control or teleportation. Games like "Xcom Chimera Squad". Or even added interactions between elements like "Divinity original sin 2".
Agreed using skills in interesting ways is key especially nowadays I think, good to see you as always jojo!
@@FranklyGaming Happy that you make game dev deep dives, not just icebergs, who usually for me get 1 ear in and the other ear out. Next video "Shooters are just point and click" I would love "Franky - game genre assassin" character arc in your YT journey. And not just critique, but also give great suggestions. If you need an additional insight, I am 1 Discord DM away!
While I disagree with this entire video, I will agree with your assessment of Outer Wilds. Didn't click with me either.
I dislike Hollow Knight because of the art style. I don't like that kind of "flat cartoons", I prefer how Super Metroid or Castlevania Simphony of the Night look. I can't get into games that have "cartoon style". I love cartoons, I love animation, specially if it's hand drawn, but for some reason, games done I can't get into games that look like that. I feel some kind of repulsion hahaha, it's stronger than the need to enjoy a game. I tried, I really tried to like stuff like Hollow Knight, or not a metroidvania but another "cartoon" game: Streets of Rage 4.
I dislike the visuals so much I just can't love something that on paper I should love. Something in my mind keeps screaming "WHY DOESN'T IT LOOK NORMAL??!" hahaha. In the case of Streets of Rage, I think 1, 2 and 3 look SO MUCH BETTER than 4!!!. Why couldn't they make 4 look like 1 2 and 3!!!??. and back to metroidvanias, I like the style, I love Super Metroid, but I couldn't love Hollow Knight, I couldn't even finish it, I just tested it, I disliked the visuals, and couldn't force myself to keep playing. I know that if it looked "with normal graphics" like Blasphemous or Super Metroid, I would love it.
Prey is such a unique game with clear similarities to the metroidvania genre, but I think it's apparent you just don't like metroidvanias based on this video. You basically just say that most metroidvania tropes/trends are bad because you don't like them. I've never felt like my intelligence was questioned or disrespected because I saw a door I couldn't immediately get through. The "intelligence" in the player doesn't require them to find an innovative way to bypass this obstacle, in standard metroidvanias, rather, the player is asked to remember the location for later, and return to it when they've acquired the appropriate key.
aight now where's my reply
I hate this guy
no reply for you
You really nailed that backtracking part by backtracking onto the topic for the fifth time every time.
LOL
Dude must have been so good at hitting essay word counts.
@@SatansLittleHelper8331 damn right I was lol
Oh man. Okay, I get where you`re coming from, but I will agree to disagree with this video on multiple statements.
What you`re saying is that you specifically get bored with linear progression of skills in metroidvanias, and I get your critisicm, but not every game should be as flexible. Lots of games are linear stories with corridor levels and mechanichs that come and go and they are tons of fun! Maybe this is just not the type of game you enjoy, but it doesn`t mean that they should change.
If you take away the ability progression out of the equasion and say that games shouldn`t give the player anything new, as they start the game with the full set of abilities on hand - you`re talking about 'knowledge' or player-skill based games. The perfect blend of both is seen in Rain World - the slugcat (character you play as) can only pick up, throw, swallow to keep for later various items and climb. The knowledge aspect in this game comes from your familiarity with the environment you need to survive in (where is food, shelter, what enemies could be in your path, what is even edible, etc.) and the skill comes with players learning to overcome different predators and environmental hazards.
Or, as for pure knowldge-based game you can talk about the Outer Wilds. Or rather, you can`t talk about Outer Wilds, because anything you heard about the game is actually spoiling the experience a little, since this should be experienced completely blind. Kind of the same can apply to Rain World - whatever you learn on the internet about it is external knowledge, which you were supposed to discover for yourself by experiementing.
In any case, there Are games which match the criteria you wish metroidvaias had. They are different games. Both and any of them can exist and it depends on the developers` vision of the project.
I do believe you are right that, adding this 'knowledge'-based kind of experimentation in any game can make it a more impactful and personal experience for the player, but you shouldn`t expect it in a genre not centered on that idea.
Immersive sims are a unique genre on their own exactly because this idea of player experimentation is extremely hard to implement and they are an entire beast of their own.
Or, well, there`s always an option to make your own game! Perhaps you could find a way to mend this rift between the game you like and the metroidvania-typical mechanics.
btw maybe you should have researched the topic a bit more. Hollow Knight has lots of ways to maneuver around the recquired abilities to get to late-game areas if you know what you`re doing and where the skip is possible. (I cannot say if this is also true for Ori)
The problem with your video is that you’re framing the things that you don’t like about Metroidvania games as problems with the genre when those elements are exactly what Metroidvania fans enjoy about Metroidvanias. It sounds like “Metroidvanias don’t appeal to me for this reason and that’s why Metroidvanias are bad”.
TLDR; Prey is the best metroidvania because it’s in no way a metroidvania.
"I'm mad because I'm bad at Metroidvanias," the video.
I really don't think this is a matter of intelligence, it's just a different kind of game. You just don't like this kind of game because you prefer more of a puzzle. I like both types of games--they're challenging in different ways. I can't call this a bad take because it's a personal opinion, but I just disagree that every game has to involve a puzzle aspect. That's just not what all games are trying to be.
Love your content
Really appreciate the support!
I actually had the same expernience with holllow knight which is why i didnt really have fun playing it and quit after 8 hours of playtime... I played it directly after Ori snd the will of the wisps and tought that the platforming and combat mechanics are much more basic and boring... its really weird to me why so many praise it as one of the best game of all time. The only great things were its athmosphere and music. Btw that Ori soundtrack gives me chills every time
3,282 vies and 175 likes, ouch.
Haha figured this one wouldn’t be very popular 😂, thanks for giving it a shot though!
I'm sorry, you made a good video, but the problem lies in you. You don't intrinsicly like metroidvanias at their core design pillars, so it is hard to take your criticism as more than just "I don't like because I don't".
I'd also argue you like Prey so much, because it is not a metroidvania, it resembles an immersive sim much more, and those (good ones) are rare to come by.
Ya I totally get this side for sure, for me I truly do just think metroidvanias are bad game design, it’s kinda a tough discussion to have because I understand why people love them and in a way it’s personal preference but I truly think they are just bad design that can be objectively improved
@@FranklyGaming From reading as many of your comments as I can it seems like you have this belief that games are fundamentally about player empowerment + expression and deviating from that is bad.
I play games to go on a tightly-designed rollercoaster/story the devs put in front of me. In my experience open world games and sandboxes are the lazy ways to design games since you are putting the responsibility on the player to give meaning to your game.
It is like you are making the argument that choose your adventure books are inherently superior to regular novels. Both have their place, books aren't objectively improved by adding more words/genre tropes/characters/choices, and the same is true of games unless you consider them a lesser art.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 I think I could have argued my point better I actually love games without empowerment too like cyberpunk 2077 didn’t have much choice I just love the linear story and world, it’s more I think metroidvanias at their core have bad design like showing a very easy to understand puzzle that can’t be solved because you simply don’t have an answer.
There are so so many other things to but for example in that case I just see it as objectively bad because I don’t even really know where to start but for example what if you could have had the needed item but you don’t well how do you know if you do have the needed item? So suddenly you try something assuming you can solve it or give up assuming you can’t, in each case the opposite could have been true.
And thr reward structure of “well the beauty is trial and error and you figure it out” is the exact same loop as an immersive sim but worse.
Another example is here is a door but you need a key, you are out go find one.
If you explored the all parts of the map you thought you could and have no key now you have to go sift through the same content over and over to find a hidden room to get a key, and in each of those you might not get a key migjt just be random bullshit. “Well that’s the beauty you explore and learn the world adventure”. But in that case I think once again it’s just bad game design, where other games have already figured out how to capture that same psychology sense but in a better way.
I definitely just think it’s my own bias too I know I for sure like games others don’t and that’s all ok too, I just like challenging myself to say what I think is true even if I know viewers won’t always like it lol.
By the way thanks so much for watching and replying I appreciate the feedback helps me improve!
I find it hard to see how these games are insulting your intelligence, while games that constantly tell you exactly where you need to go and what key cards you need to progress are not. Nothing is wrong with either, but saying one is objectively better and "smarter" seems very closed-minded and even kinda hateful. If anything, your argument just sounds like you want things more simplified. Again that's fine, but making the whole point of your video "intelligence " is not not the take.
Ya I get that I mean it more in the sense of I find it insulting specifically to know they know I know the answer to the puzzle, but they are gonna make me instead search around everywhere till I find it. That doesn’t really seem like thinking to me and I’m the cases it is like keeping a mental note of a door or something to come back to is that really respecting intelligence or just exoteric for no reason is what I mean. I’d rather you give me a nail and I figure out how to construct the hammer, not oh ur missing the hammer go find it now by figuring out where to go, I feel babied some that way if that makes sense.
But I see your side too 100% and I really appreciate you taking time to watch and provide feedback to help me get better!
@@FranklyGaming But in Ori for example the abilities you need are never really hidden or even missable. they are always between you and your goal or on a detour between them. You will follow that detour anyway because it is clearly a path you can follow while the actual path is blocked to you. It's a good way to force people to follow other paths and in many of these games you don't even need to backtrack. Hollow Knight is all about exploration sure but you can actually finish it in a fairly linear way and the Ori games only have as much backtracking as you want. You can just follow the main story path and finish the game in a couple hours With almost 0 backtracking because all the exploration is optional and only gives you stuff to make the game easier.
we're the same bruh. exact reason why i stopped playing both hollow knight and ori.
great video dude.
Appreciate you watching! Cool to hear others think the same it sounds like
You hate onions but you like onion rings.
I hate onion rings but i love onions.
I hate open world games but i love metroidvanias
Without trying to be negative, these takes are why we gatekeep these games. Don't come to the HK Fandom and insult the game. At the end of the day even the high difficulty stuff is pattern recognition. We have entire genres of games based on your wants. Go play those.
Ya I usually only talk about stuff I like in videos I just tend to be relentlessly positive but sometimes I have thoughts I know people will hate like this, but I think it’s important not to be afraid to speak to it
great video me
❤️
I always thought I was bad at games as I have gotten older, but then I realized I don't have the time, patience, imagination and childlike joy of exploration I used to have. I always have felt that gatekeeping because I don't have XYZ to get here or there. Thank you for the video!
Thank you for watching as always!
Sorry but this is a really bad take.
You can't make the argument that a game should be beatable from the beginning so it needs to be easy enough to do that consistently and not just god gamers or you have the exact same problem again with mandatory power ups. Then upgrades need to make it easier but at the same time it needs to get more challenging as you progress so the power ups don't make it trivial. BUT remember it still neads to be beatable from the beginning. Those things are contradictory.
You say everyone has their preferences and act as if you think that but this video proves you don't. You admit you want Outer Wilds to be a different game and metroidvanias to change the core of what people like about them and you portray it as the game or devs being lazy and not repsecting their players intelligence for doing things in a way you don't like. It's not objective because giving people more tools as the game progresses and adjusting the game to keep being challenging with those new tools and making them a core part of the gameplay while keeping people who don't have those tools yet out so they don't get frustrated about a part that is impossible to beat at this point is objectively good game design. There are other ways of doing things sure and some games might fuck up the implementation but that doesn't mean the principle is bad. It means it's not a style of game you enjoy and you seem to know that preferences are a thing but incapable of actualy applying that. You invalidate other peoples preference 5 seconds before saying they can have their preference. Every game has a target audience and for metroidvanias it's clearly not you because you don't enjoy the core mechanics. You saying it should be different is you ignoring the target audience and saying it's bad because you aren't in it.
I'm all for criticism and analysis of games to make them better but you portray things that clearly work for many people and act is if they are bad because they don't work for you. You don't see me complaining that animal crossing is boring and needs more action and platforming because I know that game isn't for me and not a style of game I enjoy. Wanting a game to be totally different isn't trying to make a game better trying to make it something it was never intended to be in the first place.
I want Skyrim to have linear levels because open world games are an unfocused badly paced mess and would rather it be a more focused experience with thight narrative and better focused level design (Not really just an example). Or I want fps to be more strategical games at best in an isometric view where you control a whole army instead of a single dude. That's what you sound like. Complaining a game isn't something it never said or pretended to be.
Sorry for the long comment but there were just so many things that sound nice but don't really make sense if you think about it.
I didn't watch the video but I did dislike it because I have a feeling it's bad.
It’s tough out here boys haha
Bro's complaining about metroidvanias being metroidvanias
handholded gamer confirmed.
holy hell this guy has zero plan of games. PREY is not a Metroidvania. never was, never will. you are not smart.
stop playing metroidvania for clout kid. its just not for you.
This video is so pointless, i'm sorry. because you basically arguing against the essence of metroidvanias. True fans of the genre doesn't need this explanation how someone wants a metroidvania to be less-like a metroidvania, because you don't like aspects what fans of the genre likes about them.
And the mention of Dead Cells just made me roll my eyes right of the bat. If you truly have an idea what makes a metroidvania, then you don't mention a Dead Cells. Completely different type of game, and design, and definitely for different people.
Yes, it has some metroidvania seasoning sprinkled in, but then you dont actually understand the core of either main genre.
You totally misinterpret the developers intention, and the "structure" as you said it, if you think it's about your intelligence.
So why the video pointless? i try to make it more clear.
Let's say I don't like rouglikes, because I don't like dying a 1000 times, and sometimes luck based rewards, or punishment..
Then I don't start making suggestions to a genre what is perfectly fine for those who likes the deisgn of these games, and act like i want it to be different, while the minority you are with is, and this, because is a you-problem, not the fault of the design.
Then go play something else, if it's not for you. which is fine, but I just don't get why you felt an urge to make this video.
Ya I totally get that side for me it was more about just voicing opinions even if unpopular is part of the reason I even have a channel in the first place, I like the discussions it brings on etc because I just see it as bad game design not just eh not my thing.
It’s fine to love them or hate them but it’s boring I think to never have any sort of opinion about why something is bad, and that’s coming from someone who is relentlessly positive, especially in games
@@FranklyGaming "I just see it as bad game design not just eh not my thing. "
But if people enjoy it nevertheless what you call it, what I see is that you just doesn't get it. So you have to call it bad design,
and pretend as if it's an objective fact. But what you don't really see, people enjoy it BECAUSE of it's design, and not despite it's design. You can say you it's objectively bad design and all, but the end of the day, it's a matter of taste, and what you look for in games. So sorry to say: it's just yes: "eh not your thing". But that's fine.
If you say you are voicing an opinion in your first sentence, you know, it's an opinion. so don't contradict yourself in the same sentence because if you think it's bad design, it is still just your opinion.
When finally a metroidvania comes along what is more align your taste, be happy to rave about it.
@@o0XxShimmyxX0o ya I totally see this side but I do just think it’s bad design, people like it for sure, and I think it could be better and is still bad. Thats what makes the discussion interesting I think, it’s easy to make videos about things that aren’t controversial
Dude it’s just a preference just make a video about the one you like.
Bro go play candy crush
So basically you don’t like these games and they should just be the games you like and game developers that make these type of games are lazy and don’t respect their players intelligence. Thanks for the info and now I’ve unsubbed.
Thank you for giving the video a shot though haha
based. hollow babies are crying, ofc!
The comments are going to be interesting for sure haha
Some people just like to turn their brains off and be told what to do. A lot of gamers actually. They’re just not on that higher level like you and I broham.
We are all legends right guys