There’s an easy solution: Stop ignoring community colleges. Good community college programs help students get good job skills and, if it turns out they discover value in that experience, they can add third and four year experiences at more reasonable costs.
So true! And there are so many PhD’s now that the faculty are often just as good and sometimes better than their counterparts at universities, and more tuned in to teaching than research. With dual credit programs, students can even get core requirements out of the way during the last two years of high school for free.
@@shinyshinythings actually, I would say not _sometimes_ but _generally_ better in the classroom…because good teaching skills and values are almost always a priority.
As a professor in the US, I see so many students that are not well served by college. They are not the sharpest individuals so aren't suited for impactful careers in highly technical fields. They are not economically well-off so the debt is not justifiable. The US should mirror Europe and have cheaper but more selective colleges. Those not going to college can still do well in trade and other schools or business and find upward social mobility outside the romanticized typical US college trajectory.
Correct. Because one does not have a piece of paper that “qualifies” them to be an expert does not mean they are incapable of learning and mastering their chosen field. I know a retired structural contractor who told me years ago that one of the best structural engineers he ever worked with could not read and write. But this man had spent a lifetime around structural construction, was interested in it and due to his innate curiosity and intelligence he could read a drawing and know whether something could work or not. It wasn’t too long ago that lawyers and engineers had to be articled (apprenticed to a firm), accountants had to spend years as clerks learning the job from the ground up and teachers started out as class assistants.
But in the U.S. at least in my lifetime not having that peice of paper meant you weren’t eligible to apply for thousands of positions. Many of which truly did not require 4yrs of liberal arts to master. Ironically, of course, the specified major area of study didn’t matter for many of those applications. Meanwhile, graduates with a BS or BA who couldn’t find jobs or sentimentally chose not to pursue employment in their major jump into trade and community college programs and often get to skip to the head of the line ahead of students who chose or had to work straight out if HS but studied part time for in-demand careers further setting them back. But at the end of the day the Universities and Colleges are competing against one another for $tudents… Employers used to have some responsibility for training and retirement. Now that’s all deferred to fed-backed financing and the stock market->501k. To the guests point about 19yo’s not being in the “mindset” to succeed in the very competitive college “gamble”- How many other assets does one go into that much debt (30k-80k/yr! W/ an assumed minimum of 4yrs (which we know is low)) without a guarantee of return? And what other situation would a 19yo be lent that kind of capital, with no guarantees or collateral (other than parents co-sign+fed backed finance)? Talk about debt-trap “diplomacy”… College as a casino= Funny, not funny.
@@_derpderp For sure, derpderp! I get that many employers will be superficial when assessing candidates (i.e. what degrees do they have and where from), partly coz it's to narrow down a big applicant pool. I also know some amazing older guys with huge life experience and no college degrees. One is a designer of the TfL and Eurostar rail networks! If the US heads towards requiring more higher education, we risk being like China - millions of young masters graduates who are unemployed. It's an arms race (with degrees instead of weapons) that is counterproductive. I'm clearly pro-college, but not for more than 30-35% of high school graduates. Like you say, vocational on-the-job training is great and is more relevant than a degree in many jobs. Employers who invest in young peeps like that are admirable!
I remember landing my first job out of college and thinking what a waste college was. I didn’t need to study for four years to do my job. A one year certification would have been enough. My roommate didn’t know what she was going to do for a living and opened the back of her local newspaper. She ended up an administrative assistant doing data entry and filing. I think a lot of us in Gen X had the same experience. Told a college degree guaranteed a middle class life and ended up in jobs for which we were over educated.
The work I am doing right now is a corporate job that 16 year old me would have been able to do just fine. But I would have not been able to land it without the college degree/paper.
I remember that too, but my college was inexpensive at the time, and it opened up a lot of doors. The rest was up to me. I miss those days. Everything was easier.
Maybe if you hadn't been told that college was a substitute for job training ... Someone did lie to you. They convinced you that paying an incredible amount of money for job training would give you social status. "Overeducated"? Education is a life goal separate from your job. Good luck.
That is exactly what colleagues and I concluded. Companies like ibm, msft have programs where they train high school grads and then the kids work there for minimum of 3 years or so. I think something like that would be better for everyone... Except universities.
@@mikeab5898 and that's one problem here, the piece of paper is a barrier to entry so of course people with college degrees would make more money, they have that piece of paper. This was astutely lampooned in "The Wizard of Oz"
It is also worth mentioning that colleges no longer have a monopoly on knowledge. Young folks seem to realize that information is free on the internet.
The best students especially tune out most teachers and learn on their own nowadays. I don't see the point in going to college or any level of school for that matter. I learn more in 6 months on my own than I did at 4 years of college, and I don't have to bullshit my way through certain classes to get a good grade.
Colleges never did have a monopoly on knowledge. But I get your point. Autodidacts always end up knowing more than people who merely earned a degree. This is why some of the nerdier lay brothers in monasteries invariably know a great deal more than your typical parish priest who is overworked and doesn’t really have the time to do a great deal of reading. But the nerdy lay brother in many cases might be too socially retarded to function as a pastor of a parish church.
The value of a bachelors degree has been diminished because there are so many people with bachelors degrees that it is not as valued as it once was. More people now need a masters degree to stand out
The value of a BA vanishes completely if you only have one because everybody else does. Let's go back to education as education and job training as an honored life path.
From a brutally reductionistic standpoint degrees serve merely as signaling devices to potential employers that one has jumped through a number of hoops to establish their unquestioned competence and application. Unfortunately, once everyone has some sort of online degree, for example, then the value of a degree will be reduced to virtually nothing since anything that everyone has becomes relatively worthless seeing as how it then no longer confers any sort of competitive advantage. But there will always be higher tiers of degrees to which the ordinary person cannot aspire since being merely average they lack the board scores to gain admission to elite institutions where presumably the few dullards in attendance there are the lucky offspring of alumni whose families have been large donors to that particular school, which is how we get saddled with failed presidents who somehow managed to wrangle Ivy League degrees in spite of their manifest intellectual ineptitude.
@@marcmeinzer8859 Somewhere after that chest-inflated "brutally reductionist", even I drifted off, and I read EVERYTHING, including the back of the toothpaste tube. Nice manly baritone, Dude, but "brutally reductionist" is not a starting point.
I spent 6 years in college - two years in community college when I was 22 for business classes, and then, four years when I was 45 for an engineering degree. I never regretted it. You can greatly reduce cost by taking your first two years at a community college (smaller classes and a more nurturing environment are also a plus) and then transferring to a state college or university for in state tuition. College doesn't have to be a huge financial burden; it is high cost private colleges which are overrated.
Where I live, community college has become so expensive (relative to wages) that there's a scholarship for high school kids to attend community college for free. Yes, a scholarship for community college. I did my first 2 years at CC, but if I had to do it all over again today, I'd do the whole 4 years at a university.
You are part of the generation that had the better ratio. He said people born after 1980s, and I went to community college too but ALL tuition across different colleges have gone up including community college.
I always here the same advice rehashed as though it's the solution. Newsflash, community college is expensive too. And if won't matter much if you save in community college if your career path requires graduate school which is exorbitantly expensive.
College it just too expensive these days! This is horrible for our country and for the young people who want to follow their dreams by studying a subject that they love.
I wish my college actually taught me job training skills, instead I had to study a lot of subjects that didn’t really help me with hardly anything, and then had to try to save for more courses after I graduated so I could actually try to keep up with technology and the real world of business.
Many jobs that used to get new employees valuable experience being close to manufacturing, supply chain and logistic challenges moved abroad. The on-the-job learning opportunities for new employees in US decreased quite a bit limiting them to a narrow range of corporate roles and less exposure to wider picture. This why there is a reduced appetite to train inexperienced employees in US for some companies.
My first semester of community college in 2011 was $901 in total for 4 classes, 3 credit hours each. I paid for everything out of my own pocket, with no FAFSA loans needed. Tuition at this same community college has since skyrocketed to a point where a scholarship has been setup for students to attend community college for free. You shouldn't need a scholarship to attend a community college!
I started out at a community college and took my general education courses, and declared my major of Finance while at community college. Then I transferred into a university and got my bachelor’s in Finance and Economics worked my way through college. Then I got my MBA. It was one of the best things I could have done for myself. Because my parents only had high school diplomas coming from the segregated/Jim Crow south, which is an accomplishment in itself. I wanted to go further than my parents did. Don’t sleep on community college.
There is one problem with this approach: Some 4 year universities give you a hard time about what CC classes will transfer and what will not. Sometimes it can be hard to find this out at all. Usually it will take longer than 4 years if you do it this way.
I am still in community college about to matriculate with two associates degrees at my free school. I have BSBA Haas School of Business (1984), accepted by three master's programs, enrolled and dropped out of two, because easier and faster in Silicon Valley to attend U.C. Extension for Program Management and Network Management (15 units each) because employers want to achieve schedule over budget. I miss having an MBA prestige and bank account, but I would not have worked telecom startup if I was so expensive and status quo. I am part of the liberal establishment but I want safety net here in the closest thing to meritocracy.
That loss of faith is probably justified. My feeling is that schools are much too worried about a child's psychological well being, and not worried enough about their learning objectives. Certainly when it comes to first year calculus courses, many students are struggling because they haven't mastered the prerequisite material they should have learned in high school.
Why sad? We should rejoice that people are beginning to see schools for what they are, scams. It wasn't that long ago when people became lawyers, doctors, and engineers without college degrees. Shit, Abe Lincoln only had one year of schooling, and he was an excellent lawyer. Instead, people apprenticed, they learned on the job. We should defund schools. They haven't gotten worse, they've always been bad.
In reality the second half of public education, or the entirety of the secondary levels from grade 7 through 12 are largely wasted on the bottom half of the students enrolled for the simple reason that the average adult member of society, in spite of having spent most certainly at least 10 or 11 years in school at the very minimum, invariably ends up with an average reading level of just sixth grade or BELOW, owing to their extremely limited intellectual capacity, which typically renders people virtually entirely incurious, at least from an intellectual standpoint.
@@marcmeinzer8859 This ties into a very interesting question. Is the "extremely limited intellectual capacity" due to inherent limitations, or due to lack of effort on the part of the student? As I write this the thought occurs to me, does it matter? A simple lack of curiosity is an effective limitation upon intellectual growth. In my experience when a student claims that a subject is dull, it's typically not the subject that's dull.
It wasn’t even a whole week ago that this show aired a report about ridiculous college spending on buildings, sports facilities, dorms, etc. Someone has to pay for these contrivances, I suppose. I have 4 degrees and I have seen significant benefits because of each of them. But, it’s becoming untenable. We cannot complain when other countries continue to overtake us in multiple ways.
One of the ways they are doing so is by offering an education to their young people at an affordable cost, often nearly for free. While we continue to subsidize amenities and sportsball, they’re pouring funds into actual education.
@@shinyshinythings I’m not sure that I understand what you said. Who is offering education at an affordable cost? This is not to argue, but I’m not clear about what you mean
@@neilifill4819I think they are referring to non-US countries. A colleague of mine who lives in Germany got his undergraduate and graduate degrees covered by the government there. But their taxes are much higher.
@@josephwong2016 thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. Taxes are a major sore point in the US. If taxes were to be raised to pay for or subsidize college tuition, there would be big problems. Many people don’t want their taxes to help anyone other than themselves or their families, if you can believe that.
Many professions require a college education : x-ray technicians, nursing , accountants , school teachers, social workers , licensed mental health counselors, psychologists , et cetera . Part of the problem is that colleges know that many people need a college education so the colleges take advantage of this and gouge people by charging too much and raping people financially . People should not have to go into debt for the rest of their lives in order to study a profession. College tuition , like real estate should be regulated and not allowed to be over priced.
But how many jobs require a college degree but don’t actually need a degree? There are millions of positions where a college degree is required but they don’t care what the degree is in, thus meaning the position doesn’t actually need a degree. Add in colleges requiring you to take classes that have nothing to do with the degree such as world history for a nursing degree
@@barnabusdoyle4930 Why is that? What is the point of requiring this credential if you would not need the subject matter? I also notice all the professions listed above are health care careers.
@@BobConnor-n2g My guess is that it’s a way to lower the number of applications. That’s the only reason I can think of. It’s true though that there are tons of positions that need a 4 year degree in any subject matter. It’s a disgusting practice that really hurts people who were smart enough to avoid college, or didn’t go until they decided what they wanted to major in. I would love to see it banned.
Decline in college education and lack of confidence is mirrored in people's attitude toward the medical profession, This is because these altruistic fields are now so dominated by money concerns. Follow the money....
Our country is largely run by college educated people. Our children are taught by college educated people, and when they get to college, their teachers have advanced degrees. Our financial institutions, Dept of Treasury and the Federal Reserve are all staffed by people with advanced degrees. Our mainstream media are all college educated. How's all that working out? Americans are losing faith in college for the best of reasons. It's way overpriced. Most degrees are useless, and critical thinking has taken a back seat to indoctrination. It's not that complicated.
@googlenazicompany5935if you don't know that he means the party that attacked public school funding for 40 years and elected the president that said "we love the uneducated", you're ignorant.
This is the actual truth. I live in a small town in a very conservative state and I can tell you that most parents here actively teach their kids to hate college education
Libera arts colleges/universities have become institutions of commerce aka making professors and administrators money. Just like healthcare has become less about actual heath, higher education has become less about enrichment and development of skills. There’s no guarantee for getting a lucrative job either.
only flagship Us pay their star profs commanding salaries.....most are in the mid 6 figure range....the majority of pay goes to the staffing of the Administration which is beyond bloated and could easily be cut in half and still be overpopulated
My daughter was in the dual enrollment program from her junior year in high school and received her AA, concurrent with her finish of high school. She is 20 and about to enter grad schoo, having transferred to a 4 yr college to finish her studies. The community college offered 1/2 tuition to high schoolers; after her first year she received full scholarship because of her academic prowess. Look to community colleges, explore programs, form a plan. It's worth it.
@@richardwildlife88-wj6kl My friend, along with other people I know, is graduating with his bachelor's at 20 years old because he did dual enrollment in high school from the community college for FREE. Once they got to university at 18 years old, they were basically Juniors and in far less debt, if at all. Are we lying or are you just unaware?
Um…value is whether you get something of quality for a good price. US college is hyperinflated and a terrible value. People don’t need college for decent jobs and we have to stop forcing every job seeker to have a college degree.
OC is not entirely accurate as many state universities have frozen tuition, Purdue University has frozen tuition at 2012-13 levels for instate students, The cost of tuition (10,000) is only a portion of the costs for students, as on campus housing/ food needs to be included (though it would be similar to housing/ food costs for a non-student living a furnished apartment with 3 meals a day). Purdue is a STEM type of university where the demand for graduates remains high for the lastt 50+ years.
I agree, US students, and business of all types would benefit from a different education system. Students who demonstrate a talent, gift, or interest in a subject area, including vocational should be encouraged to pursue their areas of interest/skills. As long as they are required to get some standized general education like English, maths, and history. In addition to their special areas
Yet another thing that can be chalked up to greed. The COLLEGE that I work for only requires a high school diploma for many of it’s staff positions and they won’t even give us a penny more for having a college degree.
I think the choice of major is the most important factor. The video comments that if you are a STEM student, you will do fine, but if you are in the social sciences or many other fields, you will probably struggle. Doesn't that clearly mean that the job market does not have enough jobs to offer graduates in those other degrees? There is an oversupply of social science graduates, therefore people won't pay as much for them to be employees. I remember reading a funny article about how colleges were struggling to tell their students in gender studies or women's studies programs what they could do with their degree. Laughably, they listed things like go to law school (which ANY degree holder can do), or teach (meaning, just continue propagating the species). College is way too expensive. Smart kids of modest means would be well-advised to go to a good low-cost state college and major in something where lots of jobs exist (and that you like). Maybe too many people ARE going to college, I'm not sure. In addition to professionals, the world still needs lots of skilled labor, entrepreneurs, etc.
Andy, if my nephew who is just starting college asked me, "Uncle, should I go into computer science" what should I tell him today, September 12, 2023? Should I say, "You'll graduate in May of 2027 and by then ChatGPT 7 (or some newer AI) will have taken 90% of the programming jobs, that job market will be decimated"?
“…the world still needs lots of skilled labor…”. Needs, maybe. Willing to pay anything even close to living wages for? Not at all. “The world” being the world of corporate capital gains and profit needs cheaper and cheaper labor, and is fighting hard to make that happen.
@@stevechance150 STEM is a mixed bag. The only real money there is computer science. Some engineering specialties are moderately lucrative but all engineering majors are difficult and most people can't make it through to graduation. The pure sciences are mostly pretty weak moneywise and math is not a very lucrative major either unless you're coming out of MIT or something.
Meanwhile, we can’t find a plumber, electrician, mechanic, contractor to hire. The paradigm of quoting lifetime wages for college grads versus high school grads is severely flawed. The wage comes from being employed! The trades pay well with very low financial investment up front. Most everyone needs high school plus something to earn a living wage, but we need to stop equating that to college.the majority of jobs available do not require a 4 year college degree!
I have only a high school diploma and a NABTU degree with OSHA 10 and CPR/AED/Basic First aid, I have been poached (yes, POACHED) by reps from both the electricians and plumbers unions to have me join their trade. Trades are in demand and are severely needed and pay GOOD money!
So easy to understand why. Placing blame is different. I'd like people who cannot afford to pay for college without massive debt, will be unlikely to repay loans on graduation, and will be unlikely to graduate, not to put themselves in massive debt. Make colleges provide value and attend for a better reason than fun or indecision.
Specifically going away to college is a massive waste of money when anyone living in a large city could easily attend a commuter college while living at home, saving on room and board, but then that’s not as much fun as living in a junk house with your buddies where you can throw wild unsupervised parties with your parents safe at home where they cannot annoy you in your revels. Then also it is misleading to include professionals with graduate and professional degrees as mere college graduates. Quite often people who only earned a bachelor’s degree, especially in the humanities or arts, make worse money than skilled tradesmen who are willing to work overtime. Also a high percentage of people with fairly indifferent bachelor’s degrees from mediocre open admissions colleges end up in straight commission sales, an unenviable position for most people in which you might as well be self employed, even if you were only doing haircuts for instance, since I’ve known barbers who do better than school teachers, even if barber college only requires an eighth grade education, at least in Ohio. In particular I know one barber, an ex-con no less, who makes as much money as most dentists, since he owns a massive barber shop with eight other barbers renting chairs from him, and handing over 30% of their gross to the shop owner, who can pick and choose who he wishes to wait on, preferring to concentrate on his regular customers only, leaving the unreliable driftoid walk-ins to the new hires who don’t yet know anyone.
I don't blame the younger generation for balking at the cost of a formal education. As a younger Gen Xer, the cost of attendance when I went to my state university was approx $10k per year including tuition, room & board. I left with some debt and landed my first job paying just under $35k per year, and life as a young adult was manageable. My niece will be attending the same university where the cost of attendance has tripled. I can guarantee you that the average graduate will not be making 3x my starting salary. Yes you can always attending a community college, apply for scholarships etc, but the math just doesn't add up for the younger generation.
they aren't.......they take out six-figure loans on useless degrees that pay $40k/year if they are lucky.......when I was in CC and at U over half the students there had no business being there......lacking in motivation and aptitude....they were there for the Pell grants and loans.......thing about student loans if you do not get your degree you STILL owe the money
With the dramatic rise in tuition fees, students are increasingly seen as a source of income by schools. In parallel with that there has been erosion of grade standards, and that erosion goes all the way back to middle school with the theme of leaving no one behind. At one time education was a way for underprivileged intelligent people to raise their socioeconomic class. With legacy sponsorship by alumni the ivy schools have locked down positions for students who have little talent beyond who their parents are. Here's a vote to return to the moral theme of making college inexpensive but really hard, with less emphasis on the quality of frat parties or residential facilities. Not all students are fit to graduate, and meanwhile technical schools need those kids.
To make your college affordable - take AP classes in high school, especially those that can be counted towards your gen ed, do gen ed at community college, finish your major classes at a state university in your own state in 2 years if possible, go to events that give free food, don't live on campus or buy meal plan (you can usually get away from it if you transfer from a community college with certain numbers of credits), and take a part time job (preferably something in your field so you get both $ and experience).
@@Youwish34 good point. Don't rent fancy apartments where the party kids are. Find a room in a shared house far away from the party area but still within walkable distance.
"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit". I'm seeing a lot of comments like "kids majoring in fields that have no job market". I don't want to live in a world filled with investment bankers and no philosophy majors.
@kittywalker2944again, I want my gastroenterologist to be a med school graduate, not the "I watched some UA-cam videos on how to do a colonoscopy" self-taught dude. If my teen daughter is self harming, I'll take her to the PhD credentialed Adolescent Psychologist. You can take your kid to the self-taught "therapist".
People need to be smarter about their education. Go to your local community college for 2 years and then if needed finish your degree in one of your state colleges. Live at home as long as possible and always have at least a part-time job to either help with expenses or save for when you go to state college for expenses there.
Not all community colleges are affordable, though. And tbh, degrees like the Associate of Applied Science in Pharmacy Technology are predatory af. There's such a shortage of Pharmacy Technicians right now that companies like CVS will cross-train workers in the pharmacy, with the company paying for the training.
Sometimes, it can be difficult to transfer to another university from a community college. They can give you a hard time about what classes will transfer and I had a hard time finding out what classes would transfer at all. If you start out at a 4 year school you would not have to deal with that issue.
Some other factors to consider are the delayed entry into a career, especially if you end up taking longer to finish school, and the fact that going to college and entering the workforce in a highly-skilled or specialty field is a whole lot more complicated and stressful than going into a trade for example. We are also pushing a lot more graduate students through our university system and this is creating an over-abundance of people seeking a narrowing pool of elite positions. The number of PhD students competing for a single job opening has significantly increased over the years. The programs pushed by colleges also often do not match the job market. The priority is to make the college money, not to place their graduates into appropriate career paths. People are just increasingly becoming aware of all these things.
Also, a high percentage of college graduates are drawn to careers which suffer from a high level of work refusal, owing to the miserable working conditions in those jobs, especially teaching, nursing and social work. This is why there are considerably more people certified to work in such jobs than those actually employed, since probably half of all new hires quit within five years and this process has been continually repeating itself now for multiple decades. This process is also aggravated in these largely female occupations by married women dropping out of the work force to raise their kids as stay at home moms.
Why is education the problem, when it appears that labour markets and financial markets are failing to fund and employ educated people? Maybe markets are the problem, because they get value wrong, and fail to allocate resources where needed. And how exactly could anything ‘feel monolithically liberal’? Liberalism is literally a neutral philosophy of inclusion of diversity and tolerance of difference. Rural conservative ideas are not somehow outside of that framework, or threatened by it.
It’s something that’s hard to face as an adult in college, who had to postpone college for serious health issues that didn’t get properly diagnosed for over a decade. And I hadn’t expected it to be a traumatic experience as I had prior experiences, and it changed how I view people helping people like myself. Because there is cognizant dissonance between people who struggle with finding basic resources and others who never experienced that.
Great interview! It is wrong to expect that all students should have the same outcome. Students, parents, and counselors need to think clearly about the student's goals, abilities, and resources. It is magical thinking that a mediocre, unmotivated student can "buy" (with loans) his or her way into the upper class merely by attending Random U and majoring in Whatever.
California offers state residents a variety of college options. Getting students to take advantage of these options is like pulling weeds and while it's less expensive, the amount of time students spend to obtain their bachelor's degree is not advantageous to the student population. Also, colleges used to have better career placement objectives with major corporations/businesses in their area. That direct pipeline from degree to job has dwindled and that may play a role in why students feel a degree isn't worth the time/money.
I paid $120/semester in-State tuition at The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, through my B.S. in Economics and M. A. in European Studies during the 1960s. Since then, 80 % of faculty positions are called "adjunct" meaning by contracts which are cancelled if enrollment decreases within first two weeks, no social security, no health insurance. The money goes to the Administrator salaries and local construction of campus. I transferred for the PhD to Univ of Calif -- $72/quarter.
When Paul Thomas talks about College degrees paying 60+% more, he neglects 4 salient facts. 1) Not all degrees pay the same after graduation. 2) Not all schools pay the same after graduation. 3) There are huge distributional effects in salaries 4) There is a selection bias in the College sample vs the non-college sample. Distributional effects and samples matter. A Harvard Law School grad has higher expectations for pay than a Liberty University Theology and Religion student. Also, someone who is able to get into Harvard or Yale or Stanford or whatever is likely to do better in life than someone who can't get into college, even if they drop out. The problem comes down to College education cost inflation plus a lot of degrees not providing economic payback. You really only need so many college educated people in any society, so we've seen an increase of people who got degrees in an economy that only wants to pay for so many degrees. If you've got a degree in a third tier subject from a third tier school and you have third tier grades, you may well have been better off learning a trade especially when taking into account the cost and opportunity cost of a school. We don't need all educational schools to be the same, as Paul Thomas says, we need US educational consumer to make much better choices, and we need to realize that for people on the margins in college, the right educational choice is not to go to college. If you have marginal grades and test scores in high school, and can only get into a third rate college, College may not be for you.
@@pscar1 I think you have 2 options. Widespread attendance job training centers, or centers of learning for the tiny few independently wealthy students. In the US, before the GI Bill, and historically in a lot of countries, they were the latter, afterwards they became the former. Colleges are just way too expensive in terms of financial costs and opportunity costs to be anything else. It's just doesn't make sense economically.
My husband and I are millennials and back when we graduated high school, we saw that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. He got accepted to Lawrence technical University but even after scholarships he would end up in a six figure student loan debt by 2007. My husband is incredibly talented, and very smart but he didn't want to be in debt for the rest of his adult life. Instead he went to trade school and now makes $200,000 a year running an automotive repair shop. I pursued an associate's degree at a community college and then once kids came I was able to stay home full time with them. In the early days we got a lot of criticism for not pursuing a four-year degree,but now here we are out earning our college educated peers and we don't have their debt.
I quit teaching to become a merchant seaman for 8 years, and then finally, a barber for 20 years. If I had to do it again, that is go to college, I doubt that I would bother. Even were someone to enlist in the navy, all they need is 8 years’ active duty with no disciplinary infractions in order to get a direct commission as a limited duty officer with a promotion cap at lieutenant commander that is without a four year degree. Going to college for Americans at least has become the latter day boarding school old school tie that was so prevalent in Victorian England. The only problem with this, other than the expense, is the perverse prolongation of adolescence into the twenties especially with all the graduate degrees people are getting. Then half of them seem to end up becoming carpenters or chefs since these academic credentials have been so devalued owing to being so commonplace. There’s also an undercurrent of work avoidance in all of this striving, as if there could be no fate worse than getting one’s hands dirty at work, or ending up as someone who showers after work instead of before.
The fault lies in the lap of big corporations (and the politicians who allow this) to send jobs overseas so the corporations can pay people less and make more profit. At this point, if you're an American and not studying technology or medicine, you might as well not bother with going to college. It's a waste of time and money because most corporations don't give a damn if an applicant has a bachelor's degree. It has lost all value. Not even sure a Master's will get someone a better salary anymore.
Countries that have free college tuition: Argentina, Austria, Brazil*, the Czech Republic*, Denmark, Egypt, Finland*, France, Germany*, Greece*, Iceland*, Kenya*, Luxembourg*, Malaysia, Morocco, Norway*, Panama*, Poland, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and Uruguay. * The asterisks indicate countries that even provide free tuition to American students!
But, is that efficient? If college is free, I'm guessing way more young people would elect to attend. But, if they choose unmarketable majors, then they have just wasted four years of their lives. They'll go off and do something that they could have started four years earlier.
I guess the acceptance rates are quite low, right? It's a better model than the US, where too many people go to college, in particular for degrees without job markets
In the past (I don't know if they still do it this way) kids in the German school system would take assessment exams, around 9th grade. If their test scores indicated that they had the academic skills needed to succeed at University they were put on the "track" of high school classes that led to University. Otherwise they were put on the track of high school classes that led to trade school. I believe trade school was 2 years of classes after high school then a 2 year apprenticeship at a factory like Mercedes, or similar, maybe HVAC.
@@stevechance150It’s the same system in France, and in Spain, compulsory education ends at 16, followed by some kind of apprenticeship, or two years of trade school or bachillerato (college prep).
Yep. And if you pick yourself up and move to an EU country, after three years’ residency, your kids are usually treated as EU members for tuition rate purposes, meaning their tuition becomes dirt cheap compared to the US.
Admissions are currently 60% women and within five years it will be 66% women. College degreed women do not marry non-college degreed men. This is the bigger problem for our society.
Mostly accurate, there is much discrimination against men and a virulently anti-male Politically Correct atmosphere on most college campuses. With the decline of student enrollment, colleges may need to end their discrimination against "white males."
Completely untrue. I know many who have. In fact I know a woman with a bachelor of education university degreed that married a journeyman. And spent 20 years as a stay at home mom because he made $175k a year with his trade. Average Bachelors degree earns $52k a year in the US. Average Journeyman salary depending on the trade is 75-83k. I know another that married an auto mechanic. He earned enough to open his own shop and she quit her job to do the books at his shop.
The problem is that corporations realize that College tuition is expensive so they're hiring individuals with certifications that meet their requirements to fill a position. Corporations don't really care whether you have a bachelor degree or master's degree they only care if you have a technical know-how to do the job.
I borrowed way too much for my college. The debt has dominated my life for the decade since I graduated, even though I've been full time employed in the field I studied.
So sad. College was such a great creative period between living at home and starting a “working life”. Going straight from high school to a job robs a person the chance to discover who they are, what interests them, and improves additional educational cultural and personal awareness, more and broader exposure to life and it’s possibilities.
True, but when students don't have that intellectual curiosity and are just "going through the motions" bc college is "what one does", it contributes to what he's describing
Sadly most kids don't go to college to build character but to buy a degree to get an 'easy girl' job. Too many below average trying to get something easy because deep down they are also lazy
One reason college was encouraged is because when one goes from high school to work, often times people fall in love, get married young, and have kids, and are already in the grind of work, work, work, all the time because they had kids they usually can't afford. It does rob the chance of maybe having a more interesting life than work all the time.
@@BobConnor-n2g there I'd a social aspect to it: making friends and connections that may or may not become work connections, etc. later in life. Unfortunately, what I often see in the US that I don't see in other parts of the world is the social taking precedence over the learning experience. And of course, universities dedicate money to that
@@awesomesurfer6358 my son just started college. I don't know a single kid in his graduating class or at his current school that has that attitude. To say "most kids" are this way is deeply cynical.
As a recent college graduate I would rather have my kids take up a trade (which is in shortage anyways). Colleges as a system are utterly inept at doing what you need them to. They continually build and so need to continually charge more money and require more gen ed and prerequisite classes that don't have anything to do with your major. Professors require books they have written for their classes and they cost hundreds of dollars per book to enrich themselves. I even had a professor require students to follow him on Twitter. This is a side from the "weed out" classes that are made to be nearly impossible to pass without a private tutor.
1. The trend toward higher college tuition with the rationale that schools can use the excess $$$ to attract highly desirable students; 2. The idea that higher tuition sticker prices lend credibility to the school; and 3. the unreasonable student loan terms and structure which lobbyists go to extreme lengths to keep in place - should be re-visited. At its core, the US network of colleges is by far the strongest in the world and it has contributed mightily to the American miracle over the past 100 years. For the next 100 years to be as good or better, we have to come up with a more common sense approaches.
I worked for a Fortune 100 company for 11 years...What I saw was that they kept dropping the requirements ( education and experience) for positions. This allowed them to no doubt pay less in salaries.
It’s not just college, it’s the entire educational system K-12. Parents are pulling kids out at record levels. Based on what I went thru, it’s no surprise.
If you want to change the deep rooted problems, create a Grades 13 and 14. 4 tracks: A. Miliary track. (you earn money as per GI bill) B. Academic track. Free commiunity college supported by tax dollars and onto universities. C. Trade track. Spend 2 years learning a trade D. Entrepreneurial track. Some business classes along with working a business like landscaping, food truck, whatever. No kid is ready for life at 18 anymore.
Well gee, its not like the cost was massively increased at the same time corporations payed less, reducing the rewards. Almost like the oligarchs didn't like a well informed electorate and a college education being a road to the middle class
Colleges have exploited the system and made their products far too expensive to be a good investment. The number of degrees that are out there have lowered the value of the degree significantly. The “college degree has you make so much more then high school graduates” has always been propaganda and becomes more false every year.
Yep. It's not that a degree itself has become any less valuable. Heck, certain degrees have become more valuable. It's that getting a degree is no longer a sure fire plan to get ahead in life. There is an open question, given the sheer cost of such an education today: "Can I pay it back?" The uncertainty of that question is what changes the dynamic. College stopped being a guaranteed way to get ahead, and thus, it's now one of many options. At a time when Colleges need to be financially competitive, they're pricing themselves out of the market. There are notable solutions. I personally served in the US military, which then paid my tuition allowing me to go to school debt free (I was one of the his "imaginary people", I paid with boots on the ground in combat zones and time, instead of in loans). There are also community college programs who offer an equal education at a less glamourous but lower price point. There are numerous scholarships opportunities. Not to mention, we really should restructure how higher Ed is handle in the US in the first place. Right now, half an undergrad is spent re-teaching composition and math, because our secondary schools have atrophied. Why does a college need to teach "core classes" that are a mimicry of secondary school, almost always outside the intended field of study? (maybe we should shore-up our secondary schools?) Or my personal favorite, when a transfer student or grad student is told they need to retake the exact same class, because they didn't take "our version". Then we allow foolish amounts of debt to be taken out by individuals in middle income or low income households, in fields that don't garner high wages... No kidding they're struggling. Many of those would have been better served going into an apprenticeship or trade school. The college system itself could use a serious overhaul. But, at the end of the day, the cost is only continuing to rise. Which will continue to lower enrollment. And they're doing it to themselves. Universities and financial lenders are trying to out-do each other in a negative feedback loop, putting the "the college experience" as the #1 priority. And it's the barrow, the student, who looses out. Most of which is built on the backs of federal student aid, which also needs to be overhauled... That is the dynamic which needs to be corrected. Until that happens, tuition will only keep going up. And enrollment will keep going down. Because as tuition inflates, it inflates the question: Can I pay it back?
Along with every other business in the US, colleges have gotten away with adding absurd numbers of obligatory & incomprehensible fees that students are unable to appeal, despite the fact that they never use a fraction of the items for which they're charged.
Our society values sports and entertainment over education. Some college coaches make more than the university professor. I rest my case with my BA, MBA.
I know a lot of colleagues who are 6-figures in debt, which is ridiculous. Had I known about the cost of college in Europe, I might have considered studying grad school there instead of the US. Out of state and foreign students pay a LOT more for tuition, and some schools literally depend on foreign students to keep running. You also have to consider the job market, where so much information is available online that you don't "need" a college degree. This is true for many tech positions, where I worked with a lot of people who didn't have a degree because it wasn't worth it to them.
I know A LOT about Information Technology. I don't want the "self taught" programmer writing the flight control system for the Boeing commercial jet that I'm flying on, or writing the control software for the radiation treatment equipment at the cancer wing of the local children's hospital. I've seen the code that the "taught myself on UA-cam" guys pump out. My advice, don't bet your life on them.
@@indiaandrews6996so I guess the next generation of Americans are screwed because they weren't born in a country that believes in educating them at a reasonable cost
This is where Europeans have a huge advantage. Americans need to grasp the fact that education is a right, not a privilege, and should be paid for by the state.
It's times like this I'm glad Europeans are dying out and being replaced my Africans and Arabs. Have fun paying for the migrants' social programs as well.
Hmm as soon as black women earned the title of being the most educated demographic there is a push to down play it’s significance. This correlation can not be ignored!
Great job by Paul Tough (fellow Canadian) to breakdown the situation in clear and objective terms. Objectivity is rare on this topic -given that virtually involved has a stake in the game.
I’m in college right now and it’s hard because I don’t really like any of the classes I’m taking and I’m realizing that I’m not that passionate about being a journalist full-time. I don’t wanna change my major because I’m already halfway done. So I guess I’m gonna just pull through these last two years
should have probably did an ROI before choosing that major...one of the lower paying jobs there is unless you are one of the talking heads of a network
I remember when education was considered an asset to the individual and society, even if you became a housewife. America is showing its values. Wouldn’t it have been great if all citizens were able to write well, understand math and science, and have a basic understanding of how we look at history. Anyone who thinks these skills are taught in K-12 is living in another dimension. The high cost of college in public institutions is the real crime.
Absolutely! A highly skilled HVAC technician should also possess skills in logic and ethics and philosophy and arts and literature and certainly world history. If more of this gets done at the community college level, I am more than happy with that as a cost savings plan, but cutting out the humanities and teaching degrees in exchange for funneling everyone towards finance degrees so that they can pay off their loans...ouch! Huge mistake. Large universities should control their overpriced construction projects, especially because they have negligible academic impact, but also because large institutions gobbling up space for academic buildings and gymnasiums have a terrible impact on affordable housing space in the towns and neighborhoods where these colleges are located. Let's be strategic and control college costs, but let's not throw out the value of postsecondary education with the bathwater.
I can tell you from a recent career move that a Bachelor's degree is not as valuable as I was told 25 years ago. I recently got a commercial driver's license and my first driving job pays about $15k per year more than my STEM job in local government. I have a BS degree (definitely) and I have worked for government agencies for the last 23 years, with no significant promotions. The other side of the coin is the hollowing out of workplace organizations. There is now a corporate ladder with most of the rungs missing in the middle. That is detrimental to lifetime wealth attainment.
I think colleges all over the world suck. I’m in Germany and our course coordinator & a few of professors (who come from different countries) bully & blackmail students into submission by failing them to receive extended semester fees. It’s tough on international students as their permits are linked to the semester fees so they have no choice but to quit their studies and the country if the burden gets too heavy. In India of course there are private colleges that provide the bells & whistles of a fancy college experience but do not have qualified teachers.
I have four degrees (all at the B.A./M.A. level, no Ph.D.) and am glad. Not everybody judges the value of college based on income or wealth. To be honest, when I come across a high school grad who is doing reasonably well (I don't ask their income; they could be doing better than me or the same) and has no debt, I still don't envy them or think I should have done what they did. Generally, I find people who only graduated from high school or only did a few college classes, then dropped out, intellectually different than people who have a college degree. *Generalization*. All this being said, I agree with emphasis on community colleges and how people should not ignore them. I also think college/universities are awful with their tuition hikes. I agree with turning away from them these days. I'm just glad I got out of it before it got as ridiculous as it currently is.
I graduated in 2009 with too much debt and a degree I don’t use. I still think it was 100% worth it. Two of the three jobs I’ve gotten since then required a degree and I was told I was the only applicant that had them. Additionally if I decide to leave my industry today I have some options available with a little bit of work. It’s worth it to finish and get a full time job.
@katieallen909 My older brother graduated college in 2007 before the crash of 2008. I started high school from 2008-2012. I have my Associates Degree and got my first job after college. I had no idea about internships. Was always stuck worrying how to get experience for jobs and just wasn't guided in that regard. I ended up worrying for no reason. Not even in debt. My older brother is
Peak birth years for Millennials were in the late 80s and early 90s; that age cohort is 30 - 36 yo now and ten to fifteen years from their college graduation which is why the number of students attending college has declined as predicted. The lifelong depression of wages for workers aged 16-24 in 2008 is also something that was anticipated and is reflected in income data; incomes have been stagnant regardless of whether you go to college or not. Finally, 60% of college graduates today are young women, who don't get the same income or graduate wage premium that men do. So yes, the college landscape is changing but the reasons why vary. Look up the Emmons/Kent/Ricketts FRED study and decide for yourself if the summary presented here is a fair review of what their data says.
Not everyone should go to college / College is not for everyone. Companies have screwed us all by insisting on a college degree, often a masters. The jobs don't need a higher education.
kid took a large number of AP classes in high school, then community college, earned an associates degree, combined the two and made a jump to grad school and pick up a master's and a doctorate ... total bill $190K yikes!!! ... however she will make enough money to pay it off in less than two years, buy a new hybrid and pay the rest of her bills ... it can be a great thing, if you choose your path wisely
College has become obscenely expensive. Also, teaching requires a bachelors, plus 1 year in a teaching program. Do the math on teacher wages and you’ll quickly see why there’s a critical teacher shortage across the US.
teaching programs are to indoctrinate the teachers in how to brainwash the children .....K-12 is not education anymore as they do not teach HOW to think but teach WHAT to think and often do that while SKIPPING the core subjects......MANY students fail at basic proficiencies in math and English even once given a diploma
States should institute price controls for colleges and university in their states... This is not rocket science... The costs have so outweighed the rewards... It's almost a given that a college graduate would matriculate saddled in debt in an economy that isn't interested in hiring them.
That’s easy to answer; the cost of college has risen 10-20 times the rate of inflation over the last 40 years, the wage gains from attending college have shrunk. The value of attending college has dropped dramatically in real terms.
We ought to encourage more appreciateships both in high school as well as right after high school. Why would we offer a loan to the effect and cost of a mortgage to an 18-year old? What maturity has an 18-year old shown to be able to undertake that debt burden? Giving an entryway into professions at an earlier age will at the very least provide some insight into what professions young adults may be able to go into and at least have a more informed decision to undertake debt for a specific major or perhaps even a trade skill. Additionally a more robust and affordable public university system would greatly benefit the entire society. Take a look at the Nordic countries: higher taxes = visible higher public good. They all understand that when we invest in the society as a whole, we all benefit. But hey, it’s America so I guess we don’t necessarily want everybody to be able to do well.
This is my main thought as well. Apprenticeships to get people into positions of hard skills, because as important as soft skills and tolerance are between people are, the hard skills are also very very important. I think the next generation is also going to have to learn to reduce the blue collar stigma. I really feel like blue collar workers are looked down upon because they are seen as uneducated but they truly make the world go ‘round. Not everybody even likes white collar knowledge work, and people shouldn’t be shied away from it. I think colleges are run way too much like businesses and not like centers of public good.
I believe the equality in the college graduate and non-college graduate also must factor in cost of raising children. I am a single college educated mother. I essentially have the choice to have a retirement fund and save or I can invest in my children’s future. If I do both of those things, we would need to live in a one room small apartment and have sacrifices such as transportation and vacation experiences. Without a college education we would be in poverty
You essentially can't do both. You can either fund your kids schooling and never really retire, or be able to retire but have no kids. That's the deal.
Well being that women are the gate keepers to sex, it's obvious that it your fault for getting nailed and railed by all the bad boys in college. Maybe if you had set your sites on being a stay at home wife instead of going out into the workforce and competing against men, you wouldn't have had such a bad experience. Thank modern feminism for our problems today.
Compound interest on those student loans are too wonderful to calculate based off individual variables of each student’s future earnings and debt payment habits.
Never saw it as a benefit. Do you know its almost impossible to get social security disability if you have a college degree? Your "educated". You can "work" while lying in bed.
Mr. Pro College here is trying to sell obfuscation as nuance. The math isn't that complicated. Debt is bad. College allows the rich to stay rich. College debt, however, is now the biggest impediment to class mobility. The litmus I give is that if you can't secure a piece of the $46 billion in scholarships given every year, then you don't belong at college- skip the debt and start saving money via skilled labor. Ceteris paribus- A college degree holder is less qualified than a person holding an Excel certification to be a data analyst. Furthermore colleges skewed toward fostering root memorization over critical thinking about two decades ago, and their utility to society has been in decline ever since.
My son didn't want to go to college and I was fine with that. He is now 20 and is in EMT school, tuition $1700. My 13 year old daughter wants to go to college, which I'm not against. But I will be 60 then and will probably have to take a second job to help pay for it. I work full time as a public school teacher. I just hope that she chooses a major that will definitely help to get her a job...
As someone who has been in the academia for long, the only solution I see is - Bring back job oriented/vocational training courses like training plumbers/electricians/carpenters/computer hardware repairing etc. These courses are short term, prepare you for an entry level job immediately after you complete the course. The pay won’t be great in the beginning and you will be expected to work your way up. But at least, you won’t be unemployed. But, a prerequisite for this is - The government should work to bring back manufacturing, instead of outsourcing it to China. 4 year College degrees are not for everyone - it is too demanding (AND) so many college graduates cannot be absorbed by the job market. That is what is leading to under-employment and unemployment.
never be adopted....you would put many of these institutions of "higher learning" out of business with a practical solution like that......40 years ago they transitioned from an education model to a business model.....I had my smaller state U's president bragging about bringing in Chinese students to occupy some of the limited slots available because they paid full out-of-state tuition....not sure about now but pre COVID there were in excess of 300k Chinese nationals studying in the US and by the CCP any citizen MUST act as an agent for China to bring necessary intelligence when requested........1000s were in research and staff positions at the Us
Not only has education lost it's value, it is failing our culture by a lack of appreciation for our diversity, not facilitating the practices of robust discourse, failing to enable all students to find and contribute their voices and their experiences to this discourse. One place where this is especially true is the education of educators, compelled to adopt beliefs that are not free and respectful. This emerged as 'high stakes testing' and continues as books are banned and history is being whitewashed and children are being denied support for self-determination.
In today's world, attending traditional school is only necessary if your career demands it, or if you intend to network and access specific social circles like Pepperdine University, Brown, Princeton, or Harvard. If it's none of those, it may not be worth it. With online learning platforms and certifications, pursuing a four-year degree can often seem like a waste of time.
those big premier schools give a return on the networking you gain when you attend them.......their curriculum is often no harder than a standard state school it is just the name and prestige that opens the door and offers introductions
There’s an easy solution: Stop ignoring community colleges. Good community college programs help students get good job skills and, if it turns out they discover value in that experience, they can add third and four year experiences at more reasonable costs.
Excellent proposal, although I'm afraid it won't solve all problems....
Teak701, ,I completely agree with your assessment and community college has so much to offer...
So true! And there are so many PhD’s now that the faculty are often just as good and sometimes better than their counterparts at universities, and more tuned in to teaching than research. With dual credit programs, students can even get core requirements out of the way during the last two years of high school for free.
@@shinyshinythings actually, I would say not _sometimes_ but _generally_ better in the classroom…because good teaching skills and values are almost always a priority.
Absolutely. However even CCs are rather expensive. (Over 300$/credit hour).
As a professor in the US, I see so many students that are not well served by college. They are not the sharpest individuals so aren't suited for impactful careers in highly technical fields. They are not economically well-off so the debt is not justifiable. The US should mirror Europe and have cheaper but more selective colleges. Those not going to college can still do well in trade and other schools or business and find upward social mobility outside the romanticized typical US college trajectory.
Correct. Because one does not have a piece of paper that “qualifies” them to be an expert does not mean they are incapable of learning and mastering their chosen field.
I know a retired structural contractor who told me years ago that one of the best structural engineers he ever worked with could not read and write. But this man had spent a lifetime around structural construction, was interested in it and due to his innate curiosity and intelligence he could read a drawing and know whether something could work or not.
It wasn’t too long ago that lawyers and engineers had to be articled (apprenticed to a firm), accountants had to spend years as clerks learning the job from the ground up and teachers started out as class assistants.
But in the U.S. at least in my lifetime not having that peice of paper meant you weren’t eligible to apply for thousands of positions. Many of which truly did not require 4yrs of liberal arts to master. Ironically, of course, the specified major area of study didn’t matter for many of those applications. Meanwhile, graduates with a BS or BA who couldn’t find jobs or sentimentally chose not to pursue employment in their major jump into trade and community college programs and often get to skip to the head of the line ahead of students who chose or had to work straight out if HS but studied part time for in-demand careers further setting them back. But at the end of the day the Universities and Colleges are competing against one another for $tudents…
Employers used to have some responsibility for training and retirement. Now that’s all deferred to fed-backed financing and the stock market->501k.
To the guests point about 19yo’s not being in the “mindset” to succeed in the very competitive college “gamble”-
How many other assets does one go into that much debt (30k-80k/yr! W/ an assumed minimum of 4yrs (which we know is low)) without a guarantee of return? And what other situation would a 19yo be lent that kind of capital, with no guarantees or collateral (other than parents co-sign+fed backed finance)? Talk about debt-trap “diplomacy”…
College as a casino=
Funny, not funny.
@@_derpderp For sure, derpderp! I get that many employers will be superficial when assessing candidates (i.e. what degrees do they have and where from), partly coz it's to narrow down a big applicant pool. I also know some amazing older guys with huge life experience and no college degrees. One is a designer of the TfL and Eurostar rail networks! If the US heads towards requiring more higher education, we risk being like China - millions of young masters graduates who are unemployed. It's an arms race (with degrees instead of weapons) that is counterproductive. I'm clearly pro-college, but not for more than 30-35% of high school graduates. Like you say, vocational on-the-job training is great and is more relevant than a degree in many jobs. Employers who invest in young peeps like that are admirable!
100% this
You may not realize just how anti American your statements is. This is the land of opportunity for all who are willing.
I remember landing my first job out of college and thinking what a waste college was. I didn’t need to study for four years to do my job. A one year certification would have been enough. My roommate didn’t know what she was going to do for a living and opened the back of her local newspaper. She ended up an administrative assistant doing data entry and filing. I think a lot of us in Gen X had the same experience. Told a college degree guaranteed a middle class life and ended up in jobs for which we were over educated.
The work I am doing right now is a corporate job that 16 year old me would have been able to do just fine. But I would have not been able to land it without the college degree/paper.
I remember that too, but my college was inexpensive at the time, and it opened up a lot of doors. The rest was up to me. I miss those days. Everything was easier.
Maybe if you hadn't been told that college was a substitute for job training ... Someone did lie to you. They convinced you that paying an incredible amount of money for job training would give you social status. "Overeducated"? Education is a life goal separate from your job. Good luck.
That is exactly what colleagues and I concluded. Companies like ibm, msft have programs where they train high school grads and then the kids work there for minimum of 3 years or so. I think something like that would be better for everyone... Except universities.
@@mikeab5898 and that's one problem here, the piece of paper is a barrier to entry so of course people with college degrees would make more money, they have that piece of paper. This was astutely lampooned in "The Wizard of Oz"
It is also worth mentioning that colleges no longer have a monopoly on knowledge. Young folks seem to realize that information is free on the internet.
😀
That depends on what you're trying to do that you can monetize.
The best students especially tune out most teachers and learn on their own nowadays. I don't see the point in going to college or any level of school for that matter. I learn more in 6 months on my own than I did at 4 years of college, and I don't have to bullshit my way through certain classes to get a good grade.
Same here! I learned more about economics in a single month on UA-cam than I did with 4 years of college.
Embarrassing to say the least.
Colleges never did have a monopoly on knowledge. But I get your point. Autodidacts always end up knowing more than people who merely earned a degree. This is why some of the nerdier lay brothers in monasteries invariably know a great deal more than your typical parish priest who is overworked and doesn’t really have the time to do a great deal of reading. But the nerdy lay brother in many cases might be too socially retarded to function as a pastor of a parish church.
The value of a bachelors degree has been diminished because there are so many people with bachelors degrees that it is not as valued as it once was. More people now need a masters degree to stand out
@@jacquielapierredufresne5468 This fact is basic economics that college elites deny.
Even a masters isn't worth much by itself.
The value of a BA vanishes completely if you only have one because everybody else does. Let's go back to education as education and job training as an honored life path.
From a brutally reductionistic standpoint degrees serve merely as signaling devices to potential employers that one has jumped through a number of hoops to establish their unquestioned competence and application. Unfortunately, once everyone has some sort of online degree, for example, then the value of a degree will be reduced to virtually nothing since anything that everyone has becomes relatively worthless seeing as how it then no longer confers any sort of competitive advantage. But there will always be higher tiers of degrees to which the ordinary person cannot aspire since being merely average they lack the board scores to gain admission to elite institutions where presumably the few dullards in attendance there are the lucky offspring of alumni whose families have been large donors to that particular school, which is how we get saddled with failed presidents who somehow managed to wrangle Ivy League degrees in spite of their manifest intellectual ineptitude.
@@marcmeinzer8859 Somewhere after that chest-inflated "brutally reductionist", even I drifted off, and I read EVERYTHING, including the back of the toothpaste tube. Nice manly baritone, Dude, but "brutally reductionist" is not a starting point.
I spent 6 years in college - two years in community college when I was 22 for business classes, and then, four years when I was 45 for an engineering degree. I never regretted it. You can greatly reduce cost by taking your first two years at a community college (smaller classes and a more nurturing environment are also a plus) and then transferring to a state college or university for in state tuition. College doesn't have to be a huge financial burden; it is high cost private colleges which are overrated.
Where I live, community college has become so expensive (relative to wages) that there's a scholarship for high school kids to attend community college for free. Yes, a scholarship for community college. I did my first 2 years at CC, but if I had to do it all over again today, I'd do the whole 4 years at a university.
I loved my college years, and wouldn’t have it otherwise. Because of my BA, I was able to move jobs easily, making more and more.
You are part of the generation that had the better ratio. He said people born after 1980s, and I went to community college too but ALL tuition across different colleges have gone up including community college.
I always here the same advice rehashed as though it's the solution. Newsflash, community college is expensive too. And if won't matter much if you save in community college if your career path requires graduate school which is exorbitantly expensive.
Parents must pay tuition for their children. If not , those who are not qualified parents.
College it just too expensive these days! This is horrible for our country and for the young people who want to follow their dreams by studying a subject that they love.
yes, I remember when higher ed consultants were advocating higher tuitions to increase a college's prestige - well that idea has gone welly overboard.
College is now all about job training, not about teaching people how to think. Employers used to hire smart people and then train them.
Depends on the field of study!
I wish my college actually taught me job training skills, instead I had to study a lot of subjects that didn’t really help me with hardly anything, and then had to try to save for more courses after I graduated so I could actually try to keep up with technology and the real world of business.
what major?@@theeco-centric
Many jobs that used to get new employees valuable experience being close to manufacturing, supply chain and logistic challenges moved abroad. The on-the-job learning opportunities for new employees in US decreased quite a bit limiting them to a narrow range of corporate roles and less exposure to wider picture. This why there is a reduced appetite to train inexperienced employees in US for some companies.
My first semester of community college in 2011 was $901 in total for 4 classes, 3 credit hours each. I paid for everything out of my own pocket, with no FAFSA loans needed. Tuition at this same community college has since skyrocketed to a point where a scholarship has been setup for students to attend community college for free. You shouldn't need a scholarship to attend a community college!
Agreed
Depends on the state.
100% free community colleges in my state. It's a wonderful life, and I don't understand why we can't offer it to everyone.
@pandaangry1267 He went to one in NYC, where all the indebted Wahmen go.
My 10 credit IT Support Technical Certificate is 1,690$ dollars at my community college and it’s not FAFSA eligible
I started out at a community college and took my general education courses, and declared my major of Finance while at community college. Then I transferred into a university and got my bachelor’s in Finance and Economics worked my way through college. Then I got my MBA. It was one of the best things I could have done for myself. Because my parents only had high school diplomas coming from the segregated/Jim Crow south, which is an accomplishment in itself. I wanted to go further than my parents did. Don’t sleep on community college.
There is one problem with this approach: Some 4 year universities give you a hard time about what CC classes will transfer and what will not. Sometimes it can be hard to find this out at all. Usually it will take longer than 4 years if you do it this way.
@@BobConnor-n2gyou go where you will get the most credits transferred. Simple solution
I am still in community college about to matriculate with two associates degrees at my free school. I have BSBA Haas School of Business (1984), accepted by three master's programs, enrolled and dropped out of two, because easier and faster in Silicon Valley to attend U.C. Extension for Program Management and Network Management (15 units each) because employers want to achieve schedule over budget. I miss having an MBA prestige and bank account, but I would not have worked telecom startup if I was so expensive and status quo. I am part of the liberal establishment but I want safety net here in the closest thing to meritocracy.
Not just the value of college, I found many Americans also losing faith in our K-12 education. Very sad for the country!
That loss of faith is probably justified. My feeling is that schools are much too worried about a child's psychological well being, and not worried enough about their learning objectives. Certainly when it comes to first year calculus courses, many students are struggling because they haven't mastered the prerequisite material they should have learned in high school.
Why sad? We should rejoice that people are beginning to see schools for what they are, scams. It wasn't that long ago when people became lawyers, doctors, and engineers without college degrees. Shit, Abe Lincoln only had one year of schooling, and he was an excellent lawyer. Instead, people apprenticed, they learned on the job.
We should defund schools. They haven't gotten worse, they've always been bad.
Quality is dropping due to administration/bureaucracy.
In reality the second half of public education, or the entirety of the secondary levels from grade 7 through 12 are largely wasted on the bottom half of the students enrolled for the simple reason that the average adult member of society, in spite of having spent most certainly at least 10 or 11 years in school at the very minimum, invariably ends up with an average reading level of just sixth grade or BELOW, owing to their extremely limited intellectual capacity, which typically renders people virtually entirely incurious, at least from an intellectual standpoint.
@@marcmeinzer8859 This ties into a very interesting question. Is the "extremely limited intellectual capacity" due to inherent limitations, or due to lack of effort on the part of the student? As I write this the thought occurs to me, does it matter? A simple lack of curiosity is an effective limitation upon intellectual growth. In my experience when a student claims that a subject is dull, it's typically not the subject that's dull.
It wasn’t even a whole week ago that this show aired a report about ridiculous college spending on buildings, sports facilities, dorms, etc. Someone has to pay for these contrivances, I suppose. I have 4 degrees and I have seen significant benefits because of each of them. But, it’s becoming untenable. We cannot complain when other countries continue to overtake us in multiple ways.
One of the ways they are doing so is by offering an education to their young people at an affordable cost, often nearly for free. While we continue to subsidize amenities and sportsball, they’re pouring funds into actual education.
@@shinyshinythings I’m not sure that I understand what you said. Who is offering education at an affordable cost? This is not to argue, but I’m not clear about what you mean
@@neilifill4819watch at 13:20…
@@neilifill4819I think they are referring to non-US countries. A colleague of mine who lives in Germany got his undergraduate and graduate degrees covered by the government there. But their taxes are much higher.
@@josephwong2016 thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. Taxes are a major sore point in the US. If taxes were to be raised to pay for or subsidize college tuition, there would be big problems. Many people don’t want their taxes to help anyone other than themselves or their families, if you can believe that.
I have a PhD and tell people to skip college and get a trade.
Many professions require a college education : x-ray technicians, nursing , accountants , school teachers, social workers , licensed mental health counselors, psychologists , et cetera . Part of the problem is that colleges know that many people need a college education so the colleges take advantage of this and gouge people by charging too much and raping people financially . People should not have to go into debt for the rest of their lives in order to study a profession. College tuition , like real estate should be regulated and not allowed to be over priced.
Especially health care careers, you need college to get necessary advanced science courses.
But how many jobs require a college degree but don’t actually need a degree? There are millions of positions where a college degree is required but they don’t care what the degree is in, thus meaning the position doesn’t actually need a degree.
Add in colleges requiring you to take classes that have nothing to do with the degree such as world history for a nursing degree
@@barnabusdoyle4930 Why is that? What is the point of requiring this credential if you would not need the subject matter? I also notice all the professions listed above are health care careers.
@@BobConnor-n2g My guess is that it’s a way to lower the number of applications. That’s the only reason I can think of. It’s true though that there are tons of positions that need a 4 year degree in any subject matter. It’s a disgusting practice that really hurts people who were smart enough to avoid college, or didn’t go until they decided what they wanted to major in. I would love to see it banned.
They’re talking university studies which a lot of people go and get bullshit degrees. Not stuff you just need an associate’s for
My father was illiterate so earning my BA & MA are the best things that ever happen to me.
Outstanding! Keep up the good work!
What was his major? I ask because they said in the interview that not all majors are the same on the job market.
Okay. But that's not answering the question, or even addressing the issue.
Both BA and MA are worthless degrees for women.
YOu are gonna take your huge student debts to your graves.
Are you even using your degree to offset the cost of college? Or you havent broke even yet?
Decline in college education and lack of confidence is mirrored in people's attitude toward the medical profession, This is because these altruistic fields are now so dominated by money concerns. Follow the money....
When one of your two political parties advocates for ignorance, here you are. You get what you ask for.
Our country is largely run by college educated people. Our children are taught by college educated people, and when they get to college, their teachers have advanced degrees. Our financial institutions, Dept of Treasury and the Federal Reserve are all staffed by people with advanced degrees. Our mainstream media are all college educated.
How's all that working out?
Americans are losing faith in college for the best of reasons. It's way overpriced. Most degrees are useless, and critical thinking has taken a back seat to indoctrination.
It's not that complicated.
@googlenazicompany5935if you don't know that he means the party that attacked public school funding for 40 years and elected the president that said "we love the uneducated", you're ignorant.
@googlenazicompany5935that is precisely the assertion. For some reason, there's a conservative war on education 🤷♀️
This is the actual truth. I live in a small town in a very conservative state and I can tell you that most parents here actively teach their kids to hate college education
Okay this is about how people don't like college because they think they're getting ripped off and they are
Libera arts colleges/universities have become institutions of commerce aka making professors and administrators money. Just like healthcare has become less about actual heath, higher education has become less about enrichment and development of skills. There’s no guarantee for getting a lucrative job either.
Apt. Healthcare and Insurance are the most fitting corollaries to higher education in the the U.S. at present.
only flagship Us pay their star profs commanding salaries.....most are in the mid 6 figure range....the majority of pay goes to the staffing of the Administration which is beyond bloated and could easily be cut in half and still be overpopulated
My daughter was in the dual enrollment program from her junior year in high school and received her AA, concurrent with her finish of high school. She is 20 and about to enter grad schoo, having transferred to a 4 yr college to finish her studies. The community college offered 1/2 tuition to high schoolers; after her first year she received full scholarship because of her academic prowess. Look to community colleges, explore programs, form a plan. It's worth it.
Lies...
@@richardwildlife88-wj6klnot in our school district. There are several students I’ve had who gotten CC credit concurrent with high school.
@@richardwildlife88-wj6klhow is it a lie, community college is the way to go
@@richardwildlife88-wj6kl Not much different from getting credit for a year or two of college via AP exams (for example). Totally feasible.
@@richardwildlife88-wj6kl My friend, along with other people I know, is graduating with his bachelor's at 20 years old because he did dual enrollment in high school from the community college for FREE. Once they got to university at 18 years old, they were basically Juniors and in far less debt, if at all. Are we lying or are you just unaware?
Um…value is whether you get something of quality for a good price. US college is hyperinflated and a terrible value. People don’t need college for decent jobs and we have to stop forcing every job seeker to have a college degree.
OC is not entirely accurate as many state universities have frozen tuition, Purdue University has frozen tuition at 2012-13 levels for instate students, The cost of tuition (10,000) is only a portion of the costs for students, as on campus housing/ food needs to be included (though it would be similar to housing/ food costs for a non-student living a furnished apartment with 3 meals a day).
Purdue is a STEM type of university where the demand for graduates remains high for the lastt 50+ years.
I agree, US students, and business of all types would benefit from a different education system.
Students who demonstrate a talent, gift, or interest in a subject area, including vocational should be encouraged to pursue their areas of interest/skills. As long as they are required to get some standized general education like English, maths, and history. In addition to their special areas
Yet another thing that can be chalked up to greed. The COLLEGE that I work for only requires a high school diploma for many of it’s staff positions and they won’t even give us a penny more for having a college degree.
I think the choice of major is the most important factor. The video comments that if you are a STEM student, you will do fine, but if you are in the social sciences or many other fields, you will probably struggle. Doesn't that clearly mean that the job market does not have enough jobs to offer graduates in those other degrees? There is an oversupply of social science graduates, therefore people won't pay as much for them to be employees.
I remember reading a funny article about how colleges were struggling to tell their students in gender studies or women's studies programs what they could do with their degree. Laughably, they listed things like go to law school (which ANY degree holder can do), or teach (meaning, just continue propagating the species).
College is way too expensive. Smart kids of modest means would be well-advised to go to a good low-cost state college and major in something where lots of jobs exist (and that you like).
Maybe too many people ARE going to college, I'm not sure. In addition to professionals, the world still needs lots of skilled labor, entrepreneurs, etc.
Andy, if my nephew who is just starting college asked me, "Uncle, should I go into computer science" what should I tell him today, September 12, 2023? Should I say, "You'll graduate in May of 2027 and by then ChatGPT 7 (or some newer AI) will have taken 90% of the programming jobs, that job market will be decimated"?
@@stevechance150 Valid point.
@@stevechance150 AI will reduce entry level positions in law, accounting, finance, investments and admin.
“…the world still needs lots of skilled labor…”. Needs, maybe. Willing to pay anything even close to living wages for? Not at all. “The world” being the world of corporate capital gains and profit needs cheaper and cheaper labor, and is fighting hard to make that happen.
@@stevechance150 STEM is a mixed bag. The only real money there is computer science. Some engineering specialties are moderately lucrative but all engineering majors are difficult and most people can't make it through to graduation. The pure sciences are mostly pretty weak moneywise and math is not a very lucrative major either unless you're coming out of MIT or something.
Meanwhile, we can’t find a plumber, electrician, mechanic, contractor to hire. The paradigm of quoting lifetime wages for college grads versus high school grads is severely flawed. The wage comes from being employed! The trades pay well with very low financial investment up front. Most everyone needs high school plus something to earn a living wage, but we need to stop equating that to college.the majority of jobs available do not require a 4 year college degree!
There are plenty of Mexican trades laborers in Texas
The trades do not pay well....I am a builder. Never have, never will.
@@jeffholt3841they do now. Supply v demand is forcing up wages. Doesn't mean it will be that way forever, but for now, it's a good career path
Builder is not the same as a skill licensed trade -plumber electrician welder. Licensed Plumbers bill out at $150 an hour minimum in northeast.
I have only a high school diploma and a NABTU degree with OSHA 10 and CPR/AED/Basic First aid, I have been poached (yes, POACHED) by reps from both the electricians and plumbers unions to have me join their trade. Trades are in demand and are severely needed and pay GOOD money!
So easy to understand why. Placing blame is different. I'd like people who cannot afford to pay for college without massive debt, will be unlikely to repay loans on graduation, and will be unlikely to graduate, not to put themselves in massive debt. Make colleges provide value and attend for a better reason than fun or indecision.
Specifically going away to college is a massive waste of money when anyone living in a large city could easily attend a commuter college while living at home, saving on room and board, but then that’s not as much fun as living in a junk house with your buddies where you can throw wild unsupervised parties with your parents safe at home where they cannot annoy you in your revels. Then also it is misleading to include professionals with graduate and professional degrees as mere college graduates. Quite often people who only earned a bachelor’s degree, especially in the humanities or arts, make worse money than skilled tradesmen who are willing to work overtime. Also a high percentage of people with fairly indifferent bachelor’s degrees from mediocre open admissions colleges end up in straight commission sales, an unenviable position for most people in which you might as well be self employed, even if you were only doing haircuts for instance, since I’ve known barbers who do better than school teachers, even if barber college only requires an eighth grade education, at least in Ohio. In particular I know one barber, an ex-con no less, who makes as much money as most dentists, since he owns a massive barber shop with eight other barbers renting chairs from him, and handing over 30% of their gross to the shop owner, who can pick and choose who he wishes to wait on, preferring to concentrate on his regular customers only, leaving the unreliable driftoid walk-ins to the new hires who don’t yet know anyone.
I don't blame the younger generation for balking at the cost of a formal education. As a younger Gen Xer, the cost of attendance when I went to my state university was approx $10k per year including tuition, room & board. I left with some debt and landed my first job paying just under $35k per year, and life as a young adult was manageable. My niece will be attending the same university where the cost of attendance has tripled. I can guarantee you that the average graduate will not be making 3x my starting salary. Yes you can always attending a community college, apply for scholarships etc, but the math just doesn't add up for the younger generation.
fr
How sad
If these students are making so much more money because of their education why are they 'struggling' to pay their student loan obligations?
Living outside of their means and buying a new car right out of college once they get their big girl/boy job
they aren't.......they take out six-figure loans on useless degrees that pay $40k/year if they are lucky.......when I was in CC and at U over half the students there had no business being there......lacking in motivation and aptitude....they were there for the Pell grants and loans.......thing about student loans if you do not get your degree you STILL owe the money
With the dramatic rise in tuition fees, students are increasingly seen as a source of income by schools. In parallel with that there has been erosion of grade standards, and that erosion goes all the way back to middle school with the theme of leaving no one behind. At one time education was a way for underprivileged intelligent people to raise their socioeconomic class. With legacy sponsorship by alumni the ivy schools have locked down positions for students who have little talent beyond who their parents are. Here's a vote to return to the moral theme of making college inexpensive but really hard, with less emphasis on the quality of frat parties or residential facilities. Not all students are fit to graduate, and meanwhile technical schools need those kids.
To make your college affordable - take AP classes in high school, especially those that can be counted towards your gen ed, do gen ed at community college, finish your major classes at a state university in your own state in 2 years if possible, go to events that give free food, don't live on campus or buy meal plan (you can usually get away from it if you transfer from a community college with certain numbers of credits), and take a part time job (preferably something in your field so you get both $ and experience).
@@Youwish34 good point. Don't rent fancy apartments where the party kids are. Find a room in a shared house far away from the party area but still within walkable distance.
There’s an old saying that goes like this…”If you think getting an education is expensive, try ignorance”.
That's not what she was saying
"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit". I'm seeing a lot of comments like "kids majoring in fields that have no job market". I don't want to live in a world filled with investment bankers and no philosophy majors.
@@stevechance150There isn't much tree planting here. Only short term thinking.
@kittywalker2944again, I want my gastroenterologist to be a med school graduate, not the "I watched some UA-cam videos on how to do a colonoscopy" self-taught dude. If my teen daughter is self harming, I'll take her to the PhD credentialed Adolescent Psychologist. You can take your kid to the self-taught "therapist".
hope you are holding your asset in the recommended QFS quantum Ledger to avoid cyber attacks and hacks
I was graduated with a B.A. in English and philosophy. It never got me a better job, just years of student loan payments.
Best comment
Sadly not a very lucrative major by itself, unless you want to teach. I heard teaching is a GREAT profession in the USA.... right? 🙃
People need to be smarter about their education. Go to your local community college for 2 years and then if needed finish your degree in one of your state colleges. Live at home as long as possible and always have at least a part-time job to either help with expenses or save for when you go to state college for expenses there.
Those are all too practical for any teenager to actually consider 😅
Not all community colleges are affordable, though. And tbh, degrees like the Associate of Applied Science in Pharmacy Technology are predatory af. There's such a shortage of Pharmacy Technicians right now that companies like CVS will cross-train workers in the pharmacy, with the company paying for the training.
Sometimes, it can be difficult to transfer to another university from a community college. They can give you a hard time about what classes will transfer and I had a hard time finding out what classes would transfer at all. If you start out at a 4 year school you would not have to deal with that issue.
@@Youwish34 was your family situation pretty bad?
Some other factors to consider are the delayed entry into a career, especially if you end up taking longer to finish school, and the fact that going to college and entering the workforce in a highly-skilled or specialty field is a whole lot more complicated and stressful than going into a trade for example. We are also pushing a lot more graduate students through our university system and this is creating an over-abundance of people seeking a narrowing pool of elite positions. The number of PhD students competing for a single job opening has significantly increased over the years. The programs pushed by colleges also often do not match the job market. The priority is to make the college money, not to place their graduates into appropriate career paths. People are just increasingly becoming aware of all these things.
Also, a high percentage of college graduates are drawn to careers which suffer from a high level of work refusal, owing to the miserable working conditions in those jobs, especially teaching, nursing and social work. This is why there are considerably more people certified to work in such jobs than those actually employed, since probably half of all new hires quit within five years and this process has been continually repeating itself now for multiple decades. This process is also aggravated in these largely female occupations by married women dropping out of the work force to raise their kids as stay at home moms.
Why is education the problem, when it appears that labour markets and financial markets are failing to fund and employ educated people? Maybe markets are the problem, because they get value wrong, and fail to allocate resources where needed. And how exactly could anything ‘feel monolithically liberal’? Liberalism is literally a neutral philosophy of inclusion of diversity and tolerance of difference. Rural conservative ideas are not somehow outside of that framework, or threatened by it.
It’s something that’s hard to face as an adult in college, who had to postpone college for serious health issues that didn’t get properly diagnosed for over a decade. And I hadn’t expected it to be a traumatic experience as I had prior experiences, and it changed how I view people helping people like myself. Because there is cognizant dissonance between people who struggle with finding basic resources and others who never experienced that.
Victim Victim Victim
Great interview! It is wrong to expect that all students should have the same outcome. Students, parents, and counselors need to think clearly about the student's goals, abilities, and resources. It is magical thinking that a mediocre, unmotivated student can "buy" (with loans) his or her way into the upper class merely by attending Random U and majoring in Whatever.
California offers state residents a variety of college options. Getting students to take advantage of these options is like pulling weeds and while it's less expensive, the amount of time students spend to obtain their bachelor's degree is not advantageous to the student population. Also, colleges used to have better career placement objectives with major corporations/businesses in their area. That direct pipeline from degree to job has dwindled and that may play a role in why students feel a degree isn't worth the time/money.
Colleges dont care after they get your money, if you find a job or not.
I paid $120/semester in-State tuition at The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, through my B.S. in Economics and M. A. in European Studies during the 1960s. Since then, 80 % of faculty positions are called "adjunct" meaning by contracts which are cancelled if enrollment decreases within first two weeks, no social security, no health insurance. The money goes to the Administrator salaries and local construction of campus. I transferred for the PhD to Univ of Calif -- $72/quarter.
When Paul Thomas talks about College degrees paying 60+% more, he neglects 4 salient facts. 1) Not all degrees pay the same after graduation. 2) Not all schools pay the same after graduation. 3) There are huge distributional effects in salaries 4) There is a selection bias in the College sample vs the non-college sample. Distributional effects and samples matter. A Harvard Law School grad has higher expectations for pay than a Liberty University Theology and Religion student. Also, someone who is able to get into Harvard or Yale or Stanford or whatever is likely to do better in life than someone who can't get into college, even if they drop out.
The problem comes down to College education cost inflation plus a lot of degrees not providing economic payback. You really only need so many college educated people in any society, so we've seen an increase of people who got degrees in an economy that only wants to pay for so many degrees. If you've got a degree in a third tier subject from a third tier school and you have third tier grades, you may well have been better off learning a trade especially when taking into account the cost and opportunity cost of a school. We don't need all educational schools to be the same, as Paul Thomas says, we need US educational consumer to make much better choices, and we need to realize that for people on the margins in college, the right educational choice is not to go to college. If you have marginal grades and test scores in high school, and can only get into a third rate college, College may not be for you.
We also need to get away from the idea of colleges as some sort of job training center and enticing students to come for the "college experience".
@@pscar1 I think you have 2 options. Widespread attendance job training centers, or centers of learning for the tiny few independently wealthy students. In the US, before the GI Bill, and historically in a lot of countries, they were the latter, afterwards they became the former.
Colleges are just way too expensive in terms of financial costs and opportunity costs to be anything else. It's just doesn't make sense economically.
Liberty University Theology and Religion student... 😆
My husband and I are millennials and back when we graduated high school, we saw that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
He got accepted to Lawrence technical University but even after scholarships he would end up in a six figure student loan debt by 2007. My husband is incredibly talented, and very smart but he didn't want to be in debt for the rest of his adult life. Instead he went to trade school and now makes $200,000 a year running an automotive repair shop. I pursued an associate's degree at a community college and then once kids came I was able to stay home full time with them.
In the early days we got a lot of criticism for not pursuing a four-year degree,but now here we are out earning our college educated peers and we don't have their debt.
I quit teaching to become a merchant seaman for 8 years, and then finally, a barber for 20 years. If I had to do it again, that is go to college, I doubt that I would bother. Even were someone to enlist in the navy, all they need is 8 years’ active duty with no disciplinary infractions in order to get a direct commission as a limited duty officer with a promotion cap at lieutenant commander that is without a four year degree. Going to college for Americans at least has become the latter day boarding school old school tie that was so prevalent in Victorian England. The only problem with this, other than the expense, is the perverse prolongation of adolescence into the twenties especially with all the graduate degrees people are getting. Then half of them seem to end up becoming carpenters or chefs since these academic credentials have been so devalued owing to being so commonplace. There’s also an undercurrent of work avoidance in all of this striving, as if there could be no fate worse than getting one’s hands dirty at work, or ending up as someone who showers after work instead of before.
The fault lies in the lap of big corporations (and the politicians who allow this) to send jobs overseas so the corporations can pay people less and make more profit. At this point, if you're an American and not studying technology or medicine, you might as well not bother with going to college. It's a waste of time and money because most corporations don't give a damn if an applicant has a bachelor's degree. It has lost all value. Not even sure a Master's will get someone a better salary anymore.
Countries that have free college tuition: Argentina, Austria, Brazil*, the Czech Republic*, Denmark, Egypt, Finland*, France, Germany*, Greece*, Iceland*, Kenya*, Luxembourg*, Malaysia, Morocco, Norway*, Panama*, Poland, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and Uruguay.
* The asterisks indicate countries that even provide free tuition to American students!
But, is that efficient? If college is free, I'm guessing way more young people would elect to attend. But, if they choose unmarketable majors, then they have just wasted four years of their lives. They'll go off and do something that they could have started four years earlier.
I guess the acceptance rates are quite low, right? It's a better model than the US, where too many people go to college, in particular for degrees without job markets
In the past (I don't know if they still do it this way) kids in the German school system would take assessment exams, around 9th grade. If their test scores indicated that they had the academic skills needed to succeed at University they were put on the "track" of high school classes that led to University. Otherwise they were put on the track of high school classes that led to trade school. I believe trade school was 2 years of classes after high school then a 2 year apprenticeship at a factory like Mercedes, or similar, maybe HVAC.
@@stevechance150It’s the same system in France, and in Spain, compulsory education ends at 16, followed by some kind of apprenticeship, or two years of trade school or bachillerato (college prep).
Yep. And if you pick yourself up and move to an EU country, after three years’ residency, your kids are usually treated as EU members for tuition rate purposes, meaning their tuition becomes dirt cheap compared to the US.
Admissions are currently 60% women and within five years it will be 66% women. College degreed women do not marry non-college degreed men. This is the bigger problem for our society.
So true
@@c.f.okonta8815Thanks! I've been watching some interviews of Professor Scott Galloway. He's really good.
Mostly accurate, there is much discrimination against men and a virulently anti-male Politically Correct atmosphere on most college campuses. With the decline of student enrollment, colleges may need to end their discrimination against "white males."
Completely untrue. I know many who have. In fact I know a woman with a bachelor of education university degreed that married a journeyman. And spent 20 years as a stay at home mom because he made $175k a year with his trade. Average Bachelors degree earns $52k a year in the US. Average Journeyman salary depending on the trade is 75-83k.
I know another that married an auto mechanic. He earned enough to open his own shop and she quit her job to do the books at his shop.
The problem is that corporations realize that College tuition is expensive so they're hiring individuals with certifications that meet their requirements to fill a position. Corporations don't really care whether you have a bachelor degree or master's degree they only care if you have a technical know-how to do the job.
I borrowed way too much for my college. The debt has dominated my life for the decade since I graduated, even though I've been full time employed in the field I studied.
CC and state U graduated in 2013 with a CompEng degree with only $16k in debt
woow which degree?
So sad. College was such a great creative period between living at home and starting a “working life”. Going straight from high school to a job robs a person the chance to discover who they are, what interests them, and improves additional educational cultural and personal awareness, more and broader exposure to life and it’s possibilities.
True, but when students don't have that intellectual curiosity and are just "going through the motions" bc college is "what one does", it contributes to what he's describing
Sadly most kids don't go to college to build character but to buy a degree to get an 'easy girl' job. Too many below average trying to get something easy because deep down they are also lazy
One reason college was encouraged is because when one goes from high school to work, often times people fall in love, get married young, and have kids, and are already in the grind of work, work, work, all the time because they had kids they usually can't afford. It does rob the chance of maybe having a more interesting life than work all the time.
@@BobConnor-n2g there I'd a social aspect to it: making friends and connections that may or may not become work connections, etc. later in life. Unfortunately, what I often see in the US that I don't see in other parts of the world is the social taking precedence over the learning experience. And of course, universities dedicate money to that
@@awesomesurfer6358 my son just started college. I don't know a single kid in his graduating class or at his current school that has that attitude. To say "most kids" are this way is deeply cynical.
I cannot tell you how many people I've worked with who have a degree in something, yet have no common sense.
As a recent college graduate I would rather have my kids take up a trade (which is in shortage anyways). Colleges as a system are utterly inept at doing what you need them to. They continually build and so need to continually charge more money and require more gen ed and prerequisite classes that don't have anything to do with your major. Professors require books they have written for their classes and they cost hundreds of dollars per book to enrich themselves. I even had a professor require students to follow him on Twitter. This is a side from the "weed out" classes that are made to be nearly impossible to pass without a private tutor.
It's all a money scam for the government. Just look at at how bonehead Biden is screwing things up.
It’s a predatory racket that takes advantage of young people
1. The trend toward higher college tuition with the rationale that schools can use the excess $$$ to attract highly desirable students; 2. The idea that higher tuition sticker prices lend credibility to the school; and 3. the unreasonable student loan terms and structure which lobbyists go to extreme lengths to keep in place - should be re-visited. At its core, the US network of colleges is by far the strongest in the world and it has contributed mightily to the American miracle over the past 100 years. For the next 100 years to be as good or better, we have to come up with a more common sense approaches.
Excellent conversation. Thank you.
The value for dollar has gone down. You can spend $200K for college and never get it back in value of better jobs.
About time. College is way too expensive nowadays. It doesn’t offer the same economic advantages as decades in the past.
I worked for a Fortune 100 company for 11 years...What I saw was that they kept dropping the requirements ( education and experience) for positions. This allowed them to no doubt pay less in salaries.
It’s not just college, it’s the entire educational system K-12. Parents are pulling kids out at record levels. Based on what I went thru, it’s no surprise.
If you want to change the deep rooted problems, create a Grades 13 and 14. 4 tracks:
A. Miliary track. (you earn money as per GI bill)
B. Academic track. Free commiunity college supported by tax dollars and onto universities.
C. Trade track. Spend 2 years learning a trade
D. Entrepreneurial track. Some business classes along with working a business like landscaping, food truck, whatever.
No kid is ready for life at 18 anymore.
France has you specialize in high school.
A factor is the steady decline in the quality of professors. Why pay $80 k a year just to be brainwashed?
Unfortunately the US is losing interest in education period, why not though when we have so many GOP voters who have Facebook and podcasts PHDs 😂
Well gee, its not like the cost was massively increased at the same time corporations payed less, reducing the rewards. Almost like the oligarchs didn't like a well informed electorate and a college education being a road to the middle class
A college education does not make one well informed. That's the funniest thing I have heard all day.
Colleges have exploited the system and made their products far too expensive to be a good investment. The number of degrees that are out there have lowered the value of the degree significantly. The “college degree has you make so much more then high school graduates” has always been propaganda and becomes more false every year.
You have to lie on resumes just to get interviews, they want people with a million years of experience
Yep. It's not that a degree itself has become any less valuable. Heck, certain degrees have become more valuable. It's that getting a degree is no longer a sure fire plan to get ahead in life. There is an open question, given the sheer cost of such an education today: "Can I pay it back?" The uncertainty of that question is what changes the dynamic.
College stopped being a guaranteed way to get ahead, and thus, it's now one of many options. At a time when Colleges need to be financially competitive, they're pricing themselves out of the market.
There are notable solutions. I personally served in the US military, which then paid my tuition allowing me to go to school debt free (I was one of the his "imaginary people", I paid with boots on the ground in combat zones and time, instead of in loans). There are also community college programs who offer an equal education at a less glamourous but lower price point. There are numerous scholarships opportunities. Not to mention, we really should restructure how higher Ed is handle in the US in the first place. Right now, half an undergrad is spent re-teaching composition and math, because our secondary schools have atrophied. Why does a college need to teach "core classes" that are a mimicry of secondary school, almost always outside the intended field of study? (maybe we should shore-up our secondary schools?)
Or my personal favorite, when a transfer student or grad student is told they need to retake the exact same class, because they didn't take "our version".
Then we allow foolish amounts of debt to be taken out by individuals in middle income or low income households, in fields that don't garner high wages... No kidding they're struggling. Many of those would have been better served going into an apprenticeship or trade school. The college system itself could use a serious overhaul.
But, at the end of the day, the cost is only continuing to rise. Which will continue to lower enrollment.
And they're doing it to themselves. Universities and financial lenders are trying to out-do each other in a negative feedback loop, putting the "the college experience" as the #1 priority. And it's the barrow, the student, who looses out. Most of which is built on the backs of federal student aid, which also needs to be overhauled... That is the dynamic which needs to be corrected. Until that happens, tuition will only keep going up. And enrollment will keep going down. Because as tuition inflates, it inflates the question: Can I pay it back?
Along with every other business in the US, colleges have gotten away with adding absurd numbers of obligatory & incomprehensible fees that students are unable to appeal, despite the fact that they never use a fraction of the items for which they're charged.
they also have added ridiculous classes that have a tenuous link to the major if any and are more for social engineering or indoctrination
@@michaelkendall662 And keeping otherwise irrelevant academics employed...
How does one become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect, or scientist without college?
Our society values sports and entertainment over education. Some college coaches make more than the university professor. I rest my case with my BA, MBA.
I know a lot of colleagues who are 6-figures in debt, which is ridiculous. Had I known about the cost of college in Europe, I might have considered studying grad school there instead of the US. Out of state and foreign students pay a LOT more for tuition, and some schools literally depend on foreign students to keep running. You also have to consider the job market, where so much information is available online that you don't "need" a college degree. This is true for many tech positions, where I worked with a lot of people who didn't have a degree because it wasn't worth it to them.
I know A LOT about Information Technology. I don't want the "self taught" programmer writing the flight control system for the Boeing commercial jet that I'm flying on, or writing the control software for the radiation treatment equipment at the cancer wing of the local children's hospital. I've seen the code that the "taught myself on UA-cam" guys pump out. My advice, don't bet your life on them.
Be careful about the European option. It is cheaper for them but many of those countries tack on high fees for international students.
@@indiaandrews6996so I guess the next generation of Americans are screwed because they weren't born in a country that believes in educating them at a reasonable cost
@@Belovedselahthat's right. Unless they have parents who will pay their tuition.
This is where Europeans have a huge advantage. Americans need to grasp the fact that education is a right, not a privilege, and should be paid for by the state.
It's times like this I'm glad Europeans are dying out and being replaced my Africans and Arabs. Have fun paying for the migrants' social programs as well.
Hmm as soon as black women earned the title of being the most educated demographic there is a push to down play it’s significance. This correlation can not be ignored!
Yes it can because it's idiotic.
Great job by Paul Tough (fellow Canadian) to breakdown the situation in clear and objective terms. Objectivity is rare on this topic -given that virtually involved has a stake in the game.
I’m in college right now and it’s hard because I don’t really like any of the classes I’m taking and I’m realizing that I’m not that passionate about being a journalist full-time. I don’t wanna change my major because I’m already halfway done. So I guess I’m gonna just pull through these last two years
should have probably did an ROI before choosing that major...one of the lower paying jobs there is unless you are one of the talking heads of a network
@@michaelkendall662 I’d rather be an author instead
@@Timothyrpiano good luck with that....hard to earn a living unless you gain a name for yourself
I remember when education was considered an asset to the individual and society, even if you became a housewife. America is showing its values. Wouldn’t it have been great if all citizens were able to write well, understand math and science, and have a basic understanding of how we look at history. Anyone who thinks these skills are taught in K-12 is living in another dimension. The high cost of college in public institutions is the real crime.
Absolutely! A highly skilled HVAC technician should also possess skills in logic and ethics and philosophy and arts and literature and certainly world history. If more of this gets done at the community college level, I am more than happy with that as a cost savings plan, but cutting out the humanities and teaching degrees in exchange for funneling everyone towards finance degrees so that they can pay off their loans...ouch! Huge mistake. Large universities should control their overpriced construction projects, especially because they have negligible academic impact, but also because large institutions gobbling up space for academic buildings and gymnasiums have a terrible impact on affordable housing space in the towns and neighborhoods where these colleges are located. Let's be strategic and control college costs, but let's not throw out the value of postsecondary education with the bathwater.
I can tell you from a recent career move that a Bachelor's degree is not as valuable as I was told 25 years ago. I recently got a commercial driver's license and my first driving job pays about $15k per year more than my STEM job in local government. I have a BS degree (definitely) and I have worked for government agencies for the last 23 years, with no significant promotions.
The other side of the coin is the hollowing out of workplace organizations. There is now a corporate ladder with most of the rungs missing in the middle. That is detrimental to lifetime wealth attainment.
I think colleges all over the world suck. I’m in Germany and our course coordinator & a few of professors (who come from different countries) bully & blackmail students into submission by failing them to receive extended semester fees. It’s tough on international students as their permits are linked to the semester fees so they have no choice but to quit their studies and the country if the burden gets too heavy.
In India of course there are private colleges that provide the bells & whistles of a fancy college experience but do not have qualified teachers.
I have four degrees (all at the B.A./M.A. level, no Ph.D.) and am glad. Not everybody judges the value of college based on income or wealth. To be honest, when I come across a high school grad who is doing reasonably well (I don't ask their income; they could be doing better than me or the same) and has no debt, I still don't envy them or think I should have done what they did. Generally, I find people who only graduated from high school or only did a few college classes, then dropped out, intellectually different than people who have a college degree. *Generalization*. All this being said, I agree with emphasis on community colleges and how people should not ignore them. I also think college/universities are awful with their tuition hikes. I agree with turning away from them these days. I'm just glad I got out of it before it got as ridiculous as it currently is.
I graduated in 2009 with too much debt and a degree I don’t use. I still think it was 100% worth it. Two of the three jobs I’ve gotten since then required a degree and I was told I was the only applicant that had them. Additionally if I decide to leave my industry today I have some options available with a little bit of work. It’s worth it to finish and get a full time job.
Whats your degree?
It’s a BS in Biology and I work in the construction industry.
@katieallen909 My older brother graduated college in 2007 before the crash of 2008. I started high school from 2008-2012. I have my Associates Degree and got my first job after college.
I had no idea about internships. Was always stuck worrying how to get experience for jobs and just wasn't guided in that regard. I ended up worrying for no reason. Not even in debt. My older brother is
Peak birth years for Millennials were in the late 80s and early 90s; that age cohort is 30 - 36 yo now and ten to fifteen years from their college graduation which is why the number of students attending college has declined as predicted. The lifelong depression of wages for workers aged 16-24 in 2008 is also something that was anticipated and is reflected in income data; incomes have been stagnant regardless of whether you go to college or not.
Finally, 60% of college graduates today are young women, who don't get the same income or graduate wage premium that men do.
So yes, the college landscape is changing but the reasons why vary. Look up the Emmons/Kent/Ricketts FRED study and decide for yourself if the summary presented here is a fair review of what their data says.
Not everyone should go to college / College is not for everyone. Companies have screwed us all by insisting on a college degree, often a masters. The jobs don't need a higher education.
Great discussion
Costs too much and delivers too little
kid took a large number of AP classes in high school, then community college, earned an associates degree, combined the two and made a jump to grad school and pick up a master's and a doctorate ... total bill $190K yikes!!! ... however she will make enough money to pay it off in less than two years, buy a new hybrid and pay the rest of her bills ... it can be a great thing, if you choose your path wisely
College has become obscenely expensive. Also, teaching requires a bachelors, plus 1 year in a teaching program. Do the math on teacher wages and you’ll quickly see why there’s a critical teacher shortage across the US.
teaching programs are to indoctrinate the teachers in how to brainwash the children .....K-12 is not education anymore as they do not teach HOW to think but teach WHAT to think and often do that while SKIPPING the core subjects......MANY students fail at basic proficiencies in math and English even once given a diploma
States should institute price controls for colleges and university in their states... This is not rocket science... The costs have so outweighed the rewards... It's almost a given that a college graduate would matriculate saddled in debt in an economy that isn't interested in hiring them.
That’s easy to answer; the cost of college has risen 10-20 times the rate of inflation over the last 40 years, the wage gains from attending college have shrunk. The value of attending college has dropped dramatically in real terms.
That’s simple the cost is way to hi!!!!
This is how it's supposed to be, college is not for everyone
Why
@@itsbeyondme5560
a lot of people go to college to just to waste their time
@@علي-ش7ث8ب
According to you....some people want to move up in life. No one works at a factory nor not interested in trade
True. But it shouldn't be simply cause many feel priced out.
I agree
Since the Government likes to regulate things, how about regulating Collage tuition? (to make it lower)
We ought to encourage more appreciateships both in high school as well as right after high school. Why would we offer a loan to the effect and cost of a mortgage to an 18-year old? What maturity has an 18-year old shown to be able to undertake that debt burden? Giving an entryway into professions at an earlier age will at the very least provide some insight into what professions young adults may be able to go into and at least have a more informed decision to undertake debt for a specific major or perhaps even a trade skill. Additionally a more robust and affordable public university system would greatly benefit the entire society. Take a look at the Nordic countries: higher taxes = visible higher public good. They all understand that when we invest in the society as a whole, we all benefit. But hey, it’s America so I guess we don’t necessarily want everybody to be able to do well.
This is my main thought as well. Apprenticeships to get people into positions of hard skills, because as important as soft skills and tolerance are between people are, the hard skills are also very very important.
I think the next generation is also going to have to learn to reduce the blue collar stigma. I really feel like blue collar workers are looked down upon because they are seen as uneducated but they truly make the world go ‘round. Not everybody even likes white collar knowledge work, and people shouldn’t be shied away from it.
I think colleges are run way too much like businesses and not like centers of public good.
I believe the equality in the college graduate and non-college graduate also must factor in cost of raising children. I am a single college educated mother. I essentially have the choice to have a retirement fund and save or I can invest in my children’s future. If I do both of those things, we would need to live in a one room small apartment and have sacrifices such as transportation and vacation experiences. Without a college education we would be in poverty
You essentially can't do both. You can either fund your kids schooling and never really retire, or be able to retire but have no kids. That's the deal.
Well being that women are the gate keepers to sex, it's obvious that it your fault for getting nailed and railed by all the bad boys in college. Maybe if you had set your sites on being a stay at home wife instead of going out into the workforce and competing against men, you wouldn't have had such a bad experience. Thank modern feminism for our problems today.
It means less and less to each generation.
Compound interest on those student loans are too wonderful to calculate based off individual variables of each student’s future earnings and debt payment habits.
It has grown insanely expensive, puts you in debt for the rest of your life, and doesn't get you a good paying job anymore.
Never saw it as a benefit. Do you know its almost impossible to get social security disability if you have a college degree? Your "educated". You can "work" while lying in bed.
The concurrent suppression of wages is an important contributing factor.
Mr. Pro College here is trying to sell obfuscation as nuance. The math isn't that complicated. Debt is bad. College allows the rich to stay rich. College debt, however, is now the biggest impediment to class mobility. The litmus I give is that if you can't secure a piece of the $46 billion in scholarships given every year, then you don't belong at college- skip the debt and start saving money via skilled labor. Ceteris paribus- A college degree holder is less qualified than a person holding an Excel certification to be a data analyst. Furthermore colleges skewed toward fostering root memorization over critical thinking about two decades ago, and their utility to society has been in decline ever since.
Interesting insights on higher education in the current economic context 👍🏻
My son didn't want to go to college and I was fine with that. He is now 20 and is in EMT school, tuition $1700. My 13 year old daughter wants to go to college, which I'm not against. But I will be 60 then and will probably have to take a second job to help pay for it. I work full time as a public school teacher. I just hope that she chooses a major that will definitely help to get her a job...
As someone who has been in the academia for long, the only solution I see is - Bring back job oriented/vocational training courses like training plumbers/electricians/carpenters/computer hardware repairing etc. These courses are short term, prepare you for an entry level job immediately after you complete the course. The pay won’t be great in the beginning and you will be expected to work your way up. But at least, you won’t be unemployed. But, a prerequisite for this is - The government should work to bring back manufacturing, instead of outsourcing it to China.
4 year College degrees are not for everyone - it is too demanding (AND) so many college graduates cannot be absorbed by the job market. That is what is leading to under-employment and unemployment.
never be adopted....you would put many of these institutions of "higher learning" out of business with a practical solution like that......40 years ago they transitioned from an education model to a business model.....I had my smaller state U's president bragging about bringing in Chinese students to occupy some of the limited slots available because they paid full out-of-state tuition....not sure about now but pre COVID there were in excess of 300k Chinese nationals studying in the US and by the CCP any citizen MUST act as an agent for China to bring necessary intelligence when requested........1000s were in research and staff positions at the Us
Not only has education lost it's value, it is failing our culture by a lack of appreciation for our diversity, not facilitating the practices of robust discourse, failing to enable all students to find and contribute their voices and their experiences to this discourse. One place where this is especially true is the education of educators, compelled to adopt beliefs that are not free and respectful. This emerged as 'high stakes testing' and continues as books are banned and history is being whitewashed and children are being denied support for self-determination.
This is a disaster for all
In today's world, attending traditional school is only necessary if your career demands it, or if you intend to network and access specific social circles like Pepperdine University, Brown, Princeton, or Harvard. If it's none of those, it may not be worth it. With online learning platforms and certifications, pursuing a four-year degree can often seem like a waste of time.
Lol! Pepperdine!?!
@@MiniM69 Yes, Pepperdine university, it’s School most people haven’t heard of unless you have money. They also have a campus in Switzerland.
those big premier schools give a return on the networking you gain when you attend them.......their curriculum is often no harder than a standard state school it is just the name and prestige that opens the door and offers introductions
College is extremely expensive
it’s not worth it. I’m not doing great living in the ghetto of Newark.