That was the conclusion Hiram Maxims brother came to. He believed his “silencer” would help recoil shy shooters. And ultimately it reduces recoil and noise.
The combination of high pressure and moderate powder load will reduce its recoil a little vs 270 WSM or 270 Win. More energy goes into pushing the bullet and less to "rocket thrust" from the expended propellant leaving the muzzle. Its target market is hunters who use suppressors and want a shorter overall package. I doubt that it will be any fun to shoot from a light hunting rifle with no suppressor or brake, though.
I heard a old timer say, something along the lines of, "My opinion is, Take a heavy recoiling gun, and shoot it 'til that part of your brain that detects recoil is completely dead, once you got that accomplished, felt recoil is no longer a problem"
Couldn't agree with you more Mr. Spomer regarding a .22 rifle. Nothing like a good .22 and a brick of ammo and some friendly competition with friends. Everyone loves a .22.
Ron, two thumbs up, again. Glad to hear you touch on controlling recoil. Shoot often, but stop each session before developing a flich. Each human body accepts/perceives recoil differently, I believe. Often a child or a small woman handles a 30-06 better than a power lifter. BTW, "can get by with one rifle, just don't tell my wife". As she stands behind the camera. Now that's funny. Keep well. Cheers, Jeff.
I started with a 22, then jumped to a 270, then settled in the 30-06, started reloading for it and I'm happy here 😊 I can shoot heavy bullets, light bullets, fast bullets and super slow subsonic bullets.
I shoot inside my shop almost every day. Offhand, peep sights, 16 feet into a cardboard bb trap with a sheet of Kevlar to stop it. I am old but can still make 1/4" groups.
Sig cross rifle is the .277 fury and in one of the last videos someone was asking bout tumbling, I’m pretty sure they were asking wet tumbling vs dry tumbling
You are a very knowledgeable man Ron, i like just listening to you, share the wisdom Sir, so thank you for that, and we hope you and yours had a great 4th!
Thank you Ron for today's episode. Many years ago I had A Remington 660 in 6mm Rem and sold it to my business partner for his wife to use deer hunting. Wish I had that little gem now. Sort of ugly but shot really well with hardly any recoil.
I also had a Remington Model 660 in 6mm Remington back in the seventy’s . Really enjoyed shooting it. Compact, but heavy. Also very accurate. Almost no recoil. Regrettably, I sold it. Of course as a young man cash was hard to come by back then. Several decades later, I still miss it.
Jim from Backfire has a Sig Sauer Crossfire in 6.8. He likes it. 7:50. Elj's question about a longer barrel and felt recoil. Some help for you if I may. You are correct in stating that the recoil energy is provided from the round starting its journey down range. That energy is imparted into the rifle as a given amount in ftLBs. A heavy rifle will be forced to move but more slowly and a lighter rifle more quickly. The velocity component of the equation is what influences felt recoil. They both have the same induced energy but it manifests differently. Yes, stock design, materials and recoil pads make a difference, but like-for-like it's rifle mass that is the driver. Love your channel Ron. Keep it up. Been a subscriber for years.
Thank you for another great upload, appreciate what you said about recoil and learning to manage it! Especially with the lady hunters , I’ve learned with loading 7 rem mag or 300 win mag using retumbo, h1000, or r26 topped with a Barnes bullet, the felt recoil seems drawn out compared to the fast punch of faster burning powders , then the terminal ballistics of that mag combination makes it all worth while. Thank you again Ron, keep up the great work
Thanks Scott. I'm always interested in theories about different "felt" recoil, usually reported as a "big shove instead of sharp jolt." Both your 7mm and 300 are usually described as having that sharp jolt because they are so fast. But I've discovered no science/physics to support it. Or at least not any that correlate to calculate values for free recoil energy, recoil velocity, and recoil impulse (momentum spread over time.) The recoil calculators I consult invariably show a direct correlation between ejecta mass, bullet velocity, rifle weight and all recoil values. Thus, the 300 WM spitting 180-gr. bullet 3,000 fps ahead of 77 grs. powder compared to 458 WM spitting 400-gr. bullet 2,400 fps and 82-grs. powder: Recoil energy, velocity, and impulse for 300 are: 32.2 fp, 16.1 fps, and 4 lbs/sec. For 458 WM they are: 71.8 fp, 24 fps, and 6 lbs/sec. This is pretty much what calculations show whenever I measure recoil of the so-called sharp kickers vs. the slow pushers. So I don't know what folks are feeling when they report this. Impulse would seem to define the felt push, since it is recoil spread over time, but the impulse calculation numbers don't show this. Nor do the recoil velocity numbers. Now, to your point, a slower burn rate powder suggests recoil spread over time, but we're talking differences of milliseconds and, ideally, complete burn with bullet still in barrel. Once the bullet exits, the still expanding gases not only go boom, but pass the bullet and create additional recoil. Muzzle brakes reduce this effect by dissipating the gasses. Suppressors slow the gasses by routing them through baffles. I wonder if we humans can detect a recoil difference of a few f-p or pounds-per-second impulse spread over milliseconds? Many of us report we do.
Disappointed by the military choosing this new WHIZ-BANG cartridge. They should go back to 308 and call it a day. Lower pressure, efficient in short barrels, and much more longevity.
I found the stock fit contributes a lot to felt recoil. I once had a rifle with a stock too short for me. It beat me horribly. I restocked it and tamed it to a puppy. One gun? My grand dad only owned one gun, a 12 ga. Winchester pump. He hunted everything with it: deer, squirrels, rabbits, turkeys, ducks, pigs, whatever needed hunting. That was decades ago, but any hunter could do the same today. You will learn to get close.
The M5 rifle will only be issued to Close Combat forces. There will be 2 ammunition types: training ammo at lower pressure and combat ammo at higher pressure. All M5s have a suppressor.
@@orlock20 hard to predict the future. The contract has been awarded. There will be a two gun Army …. M5 for Close Combat forces and M4 for others. Which is good IMO… the Close Combat folks do a very high % of shooting. The M5 system should significantly increase lethality. Obviously in xx years there will be a new better rifle. .. maybe a 40 watt phased plasma rifle :)
The 6.8 is great for snipers and belt-fed guns, but might be too much for the average soldier. However, if you gave the 223/5.56 the same case treatment, you might get an 77gr to go 3000fps out of a beefier M4. Now that would be something worth using.
I one round for all is a 180grain 30 06. I have deer bear and elk hunted with it. I have used the same platform. A pump 30 06 rifle for over 20 years....I feel old now 🤣
When I first heard LBTSWC my first thought was Lead boat tail, but it didn't make sense because it was a semi wad cutter pistol round. Then I got Left Barrel Twist in my head, and now I have no idea
a civilian round? what is that. hmm never heard that just heard about calibers. didnt know there was a "civilian" one. Thank god there is a difference i wouldnt want "civilians" getting ahold of the "non-civilian" rounds. OHHHH SCARY
Military ammunition has rules agreed upon. A country cannot issue poisoned bullets. Cannot issue hunting type expanding tip bullets. Explosive rounds like that used for anti aircraft cannot be used to strafe troops. A foreign sniper bragged of using an explosive .50 cal on enemy hiding behind a wall. That was illegal use of ammo.
Speaking of actions Ron, would you maybe do a show comparing and contrasting some of the bolt actions on the market for custom/home rifle makers? Maybe some caveats are needed. Regular size action, not for big bore African hunting or long range target shooting.
The 350 Rem Mag was the one rifle I regret getting rid of :-( :-( Had a Remington 600 with the old vented rib on the barrel and the laminate stock.. that thing was a beast it put deer down fast and surprisingly not to much meat damage.. The 350 Rem Mag was a cartridge that Jeff Cooper used.. as well as the 376 Styer.. that thing is even more of a hard hitting hammer but I would rather have the 350 Reming Mag... it would be a good allaround cartridge if a person is a hand loader... I would think a 20" barrel would be about perfect for this cartridge... easy handling and still can pack a punch Thanks for videos Ron Spomer
If I have to pick 3 it would be .22 lr, 30-06 and a 12ga. Lol I just hope I never have to narrow things down to 3🤣. I think one in every caliber and gauge is about right 😁
To mechanically moderate recoil you have a few options. A) Heavier rifle ( Thick bull barrel, steel parts, hardwood stock) B) Lead weights in the stock ( I saw liquid metal weights added to a stock before) C) Semiautomatic action may help ( BAR Mark III) D) Muzzle brake ( PA M4-72, Ultradyne Apollo) E) Varmint loads (110gr 308) F) Metal chassis system ( AICS or Sage EBR) G) Non lead based bullets H) Aluminum casings I) Ruger ARX type bullet designs. J) A ballistic tip may help reduce some minimal weight. ( Hornady, Nosler, Federal) K) Thinner bullet design (6.5CM,.243 Win) L) Sleeker bullet design M) Smaller caliber (5.56,.243,.270) N) Suppressor O) Metal bipod ( Harris, Atlas) P) Metal magazines Q) Recoil buffer?( Saw this in a Kalashnikov once) R) Faster powder with lighter bullets? S) Inline stock T) Thick rubber recoil pad U) Reduced recoil ammunition ( Hornady) All of these options can help reduce recoil to some degree.
i dunno of this was in your options but I remember seeing some of those 50bmg videos of military and some of their 50bmg actually have a literal shock absorber in the stock where, when you see them shoot, you can see the shock reciprocating in real time and it is facinating to watch! Maybe that was mentioned as a part of your options in the steel chassis one but, I am not familiar with all the technical terms. However, the liquid metal counterweights intrigued me greatly! Mercury? or the other liquid metal? Fascinating I am going to try to google them.
I really like. 22 lr. They're cheap enough to get that you can try out different platforms and sights or scopes or red dots to really dial in on what you shoot the best. Open sights lever action, scope on a bolt action, red dot on a marlin semi auto. I prefer to hunt bigger stuff like deer with a. 308 Winchester. I know I want a 233, a 6.8 western, a 300 RUM and another 30/30, in the future.
For goodness sake people, please stop claiming that all civilian ammo will be at low pressure. It has not hit the retail shelves yet, but the high pressure ammo will become available, hopefully before long. SIG's promotional material for the launch of the 277 SIG Fury made a point of showing how awesome the high-pressure hunting ammo will be. The SIG website currently lists both low-pressure all-brass case 135 grain FMJ ammo and 150 grain bonded, polymer-tipped high-pressure hunting ammo that uses the steel-bottom "hybrid" case. Here are the specs for the high-pressure stuff. Ammo Type Rifle Caliber 277 FURY Grain Weight 150 gr Qty Per Package 20 Muzzle Velocity [16in 2830] [24in 3120] Muzzle Energy [16in 2667] [24in 3242] Ballistic Coefficient (G1) 0.500
LBT or Lead Bullet Technologies was a company started by Veral Smith. He designed several hardcast bullet designs most were referred to either WFN or wide flatnose designs and were non expanding in concept. They used nearly full bullet diameter meplats and were designed for hunting in big bore revolvers and lever action rifle cartridges. I can attest to their effectiveness in energy transfer with revolvers on deer and hogs.
Bingo! I do not think they are in business anymore. I would just add that the bullets were also designed for ease of casting. Very good hunting bullets but terrible for long range target shooting generally speaking. -Tutt
Great video 👍 i think for us reloaders the opportunities are endless. I have 270 win light load 110gr vmax super accurate pushing 3050ish f/s minimal recoil, to full loads with 150gr ablr and decent recoil. Have 300 win mag pushing the 220gr woodleigh weldcore and 308 loaded with 125-178gr various loads and 22 rifles. If i had to pick one rifle for everything it would be a 270 because of the wide variety of projectile options, good bc with good velocity.
You should be getting way more than 3050 with a 110. I believe the numbers i saw in the load data when i was messing around with the 110g was about 3400 or so. I was routinely pushing 130s over 3000
Thanks for a shout out to the leftys. Growing up it was shotguns or lever actions. Unless you had lots of $$ even used for a bolt rifle. I got lucky for my first. 16 yrs old and a lefty 7mm rem mag. Older now still love mag but use a single shot 280 rem single 20ga or my 44mag Redhawk. Unless I am shooting long range or bigger than whitetails on the east coast
Ron, I'm not sure, but regarding the "perceived recoil" question, I think what they meant is what makes more difference, the foot lbs of recoil, or the velocity in fps of the recoil. I'm not sure how accurate this figure is, but say a 375 H&H in a 9 lb rifle shooting a 300 grain bullet is 38 foot lbs at 16.3 fps into the shooter. I tend to think this was what the questioner was referring to, and not velocity of the bullet, which of course makes a difference. I cannot say for sure. I would agree that some cartridges and loads feel different and some are more of a slow push while others are extremely sharp. Great pod cast as always! -Tutt
I'm not sure either, Andy, but I'm guessing both count about equally. Obviously there is no recoil without velocity, but velocity without mass is lighter than air. That said, I've noticed a lot more increase in recoil energy compared to velocity when ramping up bullet weight.
I'm really excited about the 277 sig. We use moderators here as standard so the blast and recoil will not be all that bad. I currently have a 6.5wssm wild cat with a 17" heavy barrel and that rifle is beutifull and balanced at the front action screw. But it's slow. 130gr is doing just over 2500fps So that 277 sig is really appealing
You are exactly the type of shooter that will benefit from the 277 Fury. Its main advantage over the existing WSM and SAUM cartridges is performance with shorter barrels.
Ron, I believe he was referring to recoil velocity as in the rate the rifle is coming back. It's like shooting a 375 h&h and it feels like it has more recoil than a 416 rem mag.
Could be. The 375 H&H with a 300 gr. at 2,500 fps recoils 18.1 fps. 416 RM with 400 gr. at 2450 fps recoils 21.75 fps. Both in 9# rifles, so the recoil is actually faster from the 416. I check these every time someone brings up the "slow push instead of sharp jolt" theory of felt recoil. It makes sense, but when I run the numbers the supposedly slower push cartridge/rifle usually recoils faster. So I don't know what it is we're feeling. Why doe a heavier bullet delivering faster recoil feel like " a slow push?" Beats me.
On the recoil question, basic physics might support having the rifle off your shoulder a little. If you increase the time and distance over which a force is applied, the force is less. Nice video 👍
Nah man, doesn't work like that. Try that out with something that actually has reasonable recoil like a 375H&H or 458WM. Allowing the rifle to recoil freely before contacting your shoulder will be far worse than just absorbing the recoil from the onset.
@@tun0fun Agreed. The recoil acting against the rifle alone will turn your rifle into a mass that then smashes into the shooter, vice the recoil acting against the combined mass of rifle and shooter at the onset.
basic non biological physics against the biological physics of my body and how my shoulder gets badly bruised when I had tried to do what you say? nah. nah nah nah. It don’t work like that, as the other commenter stated. You are not considering the entirety of the factors involved, summarily, the interaction of an object controlled by nonbiological physics, interacting against the skin and blood and bones of your personal physiology
but, as you yourself have named your own self for the internet😅, you are a knobjob. So, maybe I should not have taken issue with your incorrect understanding of basic physics.
Lbt is lead bullet tech if my memory is still working they did make very high quality molds went bankrupt 20years ago. The bullets had wide flat ogive and lead the way for the 300grn bullets in 44 and 45 cal
The Aussie Lithgow LA101 are Rimfires in a lefty version. Lithgow are our military arms manufacturer that has diversified into the recreational shooter market. Sadly they only don’t do them in the LA102 Centrefires ☹️
Lead Bullet Technology is a bullet mold company started by Veral Smith of Moyie Springs, Idaho. He makes some very good bullet molds, great lead hardness tester and used to sell cast bullets using his unique bullets molds. His bullet designs make for very effective cast hunting bullets. -Mike
Howdy Ron, im a left handed shooter, ive never had a left handed action gun, but there is no better gun for a left handed person than a Pump Action, im now 34 and got my first pump when i was 7, it was a (IMI Timber Wolf .357 MAG Pump Action) and shot my first buck with it that year, when i was 12, i got my Remington 760 Game Master .308, i'm a Remington Pump man through and through, i also have a 7600 30-06 and a 7600 35 Whelen and they are my favorite hunting rifles, my Remington's have never failed me, and ive killed all my game animals, with them except my very first which was with my .357 MAG with a perfect heart shot, but having the action on the right side of the gun has never bothered me, but a lot of guys have asked me how i shoot with the action so close to my face, but again its never bothered me. AMERICA STRONG STAY FREE LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC
30.06 can do everything in United States, it may not be optimal for the low end and the high end, it will get it done with the right bullet. I would be ok with a .243 or a 7mm-08 and a .300winmag to cover the bases a little better. If you get a .556, you can shoot .223 and you will have no problem finding ammo, same with .308/7.62x51. The latter two are what I own and will handle what I need.
Yes, for assured ammo, you can't beat the 223 Rem and 308 Win. Not bad for handling most chores, either. And if you handload you can make the 223 shoot about as slowly as a 22 Long Rifle. Versatile.
277 fury could be neat. I am very curious as to throat erosion and barrel life. It takes a lot of money to go fast. Life is about compromise. But I am glad to see the VLD tech finally getting to the 27 calibers. Even the 25 is starting to get some long heavy bullets and faster twist pipes. Get what you want and go shooting. Time in the field and on the range is so much fun.
I'd take a 243 and a 308, both have the better chance of procuring when times gets rough. If you reload I'd pick the 7mm-o8 intead of the 308. By the way, I reload.
I have a question me and my dad shot the 25wssm for years and sold the rifles because of the ammo not being readily available and we are not reloadeders. In your opinon what is the best compared round in a short action that competes with this round that is fast, flat and light recoiling for deer hunting
Hi Ron. Could an action, say a Rem 700, be barrelled in .277 Fury? I wonder what the bolt thrust of the 80,000 PSI cartridge will be. Do you have any thoughts on this please?
The bolt thrust is a little more than the 300WM, but less than the WSM, SAUM and PRC cartridges. Bolt thrust is max pressure multiplied by the "piston" of the max diameter of cartridge base. The max diameter of the 277 Fury cartridge base is only 0.4703" whereas for the WSM's it is 0.555". In pounds of force, the 277 Fury is about 13,900 lbs-f, which is only about 88% of the WSM's 15,700 lbs-f.
My list would be .22LR, 22-250, 28 Nosler, 340 Weatherby, 416 Weatherby with an honorable mention for the 45-70 lever action! If I had to pick just one for most everything, 300 Weatherby hands down.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast I’m in WY so not much use for anything that can’t reach out there a bit. I hunted everything for years with just just my STW so for me no need for anything smaller like my 6.5 Creedmore I just sold. It just sat in the safe. But if I were to add to that list, it would be the 25-06!! Still one of my all time favorite cartridges. I know the Creed can best it but it’s nostalgic for me.
I'm in the stage of one gun right now and I chose a 308 and I'm very pleased with my choice! I'm going elk and deer hunting this year with it, it's the cheapest center-fire you can get. Ammo is in every store, and the recoil is basically nothing! I only shot guns when I was a kid on my grandma's farm and it was a 20g shotgun and a 3006 and I remember it hurt so bad. I thought I didn't like shooting but now in my 20s I wanted to get into only eating meat that I hunt. So when I just bought mine i was debating 308 or 3006, got the 308, shot it, and realized wow I totally could have handled the 06. Didn't take into account the recoil at 25 is nill compared to when you're 10 😆
Randall, I'm not sure that 80,000 will increase barrel erosion. Flame temp at the throat is usually the contributor to erosion. Powder capacity of the .277 Fury is comparable to that of the 308 Win. The expansion ratio will be lower due to the narrower bore, but I'm not sure temps will be radically higher. I can't imagine military choosing a cartridge that would rapidly eat barrels.
The military barrel is said to be good for 10,000 rounds. However, it might not be worth it to bring it to a gun range. A .22 will go through a paper target and these rounds may tear apart steel targets. If you are doing long range competitive shooting, you maybe shooting less than 20 rounds per competition.
@@danielmorgan7351 I don't doubt that one bit. Have you tried CFE223? If not, it might be worth a try for you. Speer has published load data for this combination. I'm using very close to a max charge and getting an average velocity of 2694 and half moa accuracy. This is 338 win mag type performance. Either way the 35 whelen is very underrated.
According to SAAMI it is 80,000 psi for the civilian rifle. The Elite Bonded Polymer Tipped 277 SIG Fury Hybrid ammo shown on their site is full power. It is advertised to pretty much match the 270 WSM out of 24" barrels (3120fps) and produces 2830fps out of a 16" barrel (matching 270 from 24" barrel)
@@danel5611 I wouldn't call the solid brass ammo, "practice ammo". It will be right between the 260 and 308 in energy. Adequate for all regular game. This is what most people will shoot 90% of the time. The hybrid HP ammo is the big game or over compensating ammo, like the 7 PRC. Probably never necessary, but fun and confidence inspiring. Nice to know you have the capabilities.
@@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080 The 277 Fury ammo being sold at the moment is the lower-pressure 135 grain FMJ. Although the 140grain full-pressure hunting ammo was shown in the promotional materials at the cartridge's introduction, it has yet to show up on SIG's website. It looks like the 150 grain will be first. You are right though, about the capability of the lower-pressure variant. The brass case ammo will be essentially 277-308AI and plenty for most hunting and target duties. I have read that the Army is developing a RRTA (Reduce Range Training Ammo) version. This would extend barrel life.
Going to be interesting to see how many of those 6.8x51's separate running 80k psi with a bi metal case. I think they are pushing physics a little to far. Yes that steel head may take more psi but what keeps them from blowing out at the transition from steel to brass
The way the join and the aluminium sealing ring has been designed. This isn't the first case designed this way for this reason and to ensure higher extraction force. I am pretty confident that the engineers who designed and tested the case know a lot more about the physics of this then us.
They use a steel washer inside the case to ‘lock’ the two peices together as the case is pressed together. No issues with ammo-its already been greenlit to be fielded starting in the next year or so. The issue is we wont be seeing the 80k psi version released to the public. I think 65k-ish is the max on the commercial ammo. Bummer
@@John_Redcorn_ There are 2 reasons why they will not be available for civilian purchase. 1. The initial order volume by the military means 100% of the production has to go to that order for the first few years. 2. The bi-metal cases have not been certified as safe to reload so they don't want a bunch of idiots blowing up their guns and creating a bunch of bad press. 3. Math is hard.
@@SurmaSampo actually i believe the real reason is current AR-10 platforms cannot handle 80k. Tje new Sig rifle was built around the 80k cartridge and its the only one as of right now that can safely fire the full-house ammo (semi-autos, that is). Youd have ppl swapping out their 6.5cm and 308 barrels in their AR10s and blowing out gas tubes and possibly the back of the buffer tube 😳
@@John_Redcorn_ The reasons I gave are the reasons they actually provided in interview. Retards doing custom barrel swaps to underrated actions is kind of like refusing to sell axes because someone hit themself in the shin.
The rifle you spoke about that sig makes in the 277 fury is the sig cross. And the two loads are going to be a 140gr and 130gr the 130gr is going to be the armor piercing steel penetrator. Both going either 3000fps or 2850fsp.
Velocity shouldn’t have much to do with recoil as the energy/pressure. A .308 out of a 16” barrel will have much less velocity than it will in a 24” barrel. Velocity is a derivative of the energy and expansion of gasses before exit. So the recoil overall is from energy (Newtons 2nd Law). The perception can be lowered via muzzle brake, more weight of gun, better pad for absorbing…but that’s not lowering recoil produced as it it dispersing the energy in other ways. Physics 101
22 Nosler designed to fit AR15 actions with fast twist rifling and deliver long, high B.C. bullets at MVs about 100 to 150 fps slower than 22-250 Rem. It should push a 55-gr. 3,500 fps, an 85-gr. 2,900 fps from 24" bl. Rebated rim. 30-degree shoulder. 223 Rem COAL.
The commercial 277 Fury ammo is not going to be loaded to the 80k psi limit. Only the military ammo will be that hot. The commercial stuff is going to max out at around the 65k mark i believe. Still a sweet round for shorter barrels but it wont come near the 80k stuff. Those loadings are going to be wicked.
SAAMI specs give 80,000 psi for the .277 Fury. 135-gr. bullet at 3,000 fps from 16" bl. SIG is advertising 150-gr. factory ammo rated 3,150 fps from 24" barrel. That's about 200 fps faster than full house 270 Win. loads, and the .277 case is 308 Win. size, so... They're getting that extra velocity from something. 80,000 psi pressure would seem to be indicated. These cases include the steel head, too. I don't think they'd bother with the steel head if they weren't loading for 80,000 psi. Until I hear from SIG that they won't load this hot, I have to believe they will. Not much point in a 270-08 at traditional MAP.
Ha, you give me too much credit. If the old 25-06 hits the bin, it's because they don't/wont give it the fast twist barrels and high B.C. bullets that enable it to reach long range potential everyone seems to "need" today. Plus it's a (horrors!) long action cartridge. Regardless, plenty of us Fudds will continue limping along with its dismal performance, and perhaps a few cheapskate young hunters will inherit an "old fashioned" bolt-action rifle in 25-06 and, in the process of shooting up Grandpa's old ammo, discover it's worth keeping.
Ha ha....i just bought a heavy barreled remington 700 in 25 06 and man is it minty i think the only finger prints on it in the last 40 ish years are mine lol it even came with a weaver accutrak? Scope. And I'm pretty sure I'll be a happy camper this sask deer season😁😁
I really think the 22 creedmoor will be the next “must have” caliber. Being able to push a 75 grain .224 projectile that fast is going to appeal to a lot of people.
The .277 Fury is NOT an 80,000 psi round. It is the civilian version of the 6.8x51 military round which has a different makeup and is capable of 80,000psi due to the bimetal case.
Nobody knows yet, and reloading would be a low priority for SIG. The new cartridge's greatest strength is effectiveness in short barrels, which will mainly be hunters. Many hunters don't reload. Just look at the percentage of hunting vs target/practice loads being sold in most higher-power cartridges The high-volume competitive shooters tend to use heavier rifles, so the benefits from the shorter barrels would be less for them.
Well if the government wants this round they could keep it in service and have 5 generations of designs to figure it all out then want something new again 🤔
SIG has 150 grain polymer tipped hybrid hunting ammo listed on its site. It is full power and basically matches comparable 270 WSM velocities out of a 24" barrel (3120fps). Out of.a 16" barrel, it is advertised at 2830 fps, about the same as 270 out of a 24" barrel, but using a longer, higher BC bullet.
@@jfess1911 As far as I know the really hot stuff is classified still and there aren't any numbers on it. SIG has the target ammo and then the hot hunting stuff but everything I have heard like Ian from Forgotten Weapons they made it very clear that it was not the full 80kpsi. There hasn't been anything about the projectiles either. I found a study that I believe NATO had something to do with and it seems like.27 might have been the sweet spot in the testing. However it's been tossed around for awhile that it might be the minimum for whatever projectile they are planning to use. I'm pretty excited about this if we ever get full pressure for hunting. I could see a time when we might be looking at a single rifle with a lot of different ammo. Especially if they get the pressure up to 100kpsi then something like a 16-18" barreled 9mm rifle shooting saboted bullets could be a big deal. The higher pressure and larger bore diameter make it far more efficient and because of the low gas volume a longer barrel is a waste. If we could get the high speeds without the problems of long barrels and burning a lot of extra powder that adds weight to equation as well as a rocket effect. I have always leaned towards heavy bullets for good penetration but if it was possible to throw copper bullets really fast without to much recoil I could see where it would be possible to have smaller lighter rifles that killed more cleanly. That's just me. I like pushing performance so long as everything is kept balanced and you don't loose function like really light bullets at high speed. The impact speed does increased damage it's just important that it goes all the way through.
@@stormiewutzke4190 SIG list both brass-cased 135 FMJ (lower pressure) and Hybrid-cased 150grain high-pressure ammo. The high pressure ammo is not available yet, so testers like Ian and Garand Thumb had none to test. The 150 grain load is in the steel-base "Hybrid" case, is faster than the 135 and listed at more than double the price.
If you don't want to be a collector or go to Africa, IMO you can get by with 3 rifles. A 22lr or 17HMR a 22-250 or same in AI and a 7mm RM. Not to much you cant shoot with these three.
There are other actions that can handle the pressure. The 700 is one. They are kinda iffy about how they are going to like it. I imagine that any of the actions based off the 700 are probably going to be fine. If they can handle the full 100k psi that the round is supposed to be able to handle. Besides the combination of velocity and weight including the original powder weight there is a rocket effect as well. It's my personal opinion that the reason you hear that larger bores have a slower recoil vs the hot small bore magnums. I don't know how to test it but all the stories you hear always say that they can handle large bores. It at least fits. The internal volume of a larger bore with the gas pushing against a larger surface is going to make the gas do more work and exit with less energy. Stepping down in bore size there will be far more energy in the gas and it's the same amount of gas in a smaller area so there will be a larger rocket effect. How large I don't know.
The bore surface area has nothing to do with it. It all comes down to energy of the powder acting on the mass of the projectile because what you feel is force and not energy. Once the bullet has left the barrel the remaining hot gas is only acting against the mass of the air it is displacing just outside of the barrel. Loaf a cartridge and just seal the neck with a cardboard plug. You will find the amount of recoil is massively reduced to what you refer to as "rocket effect". You may want to clean all the soot out of the chamber afterwards as the case will not be able to create a seal with such low pressure.
Stormie is correct. The concept he is describing is called the "swept volume" of a bore. The larger swept volume allows more of the propellant's energy to be imparted to the bullet. If you compare a 243 load and a 308 load using the same amount of powder, the muzzle energy of the 308 will be higher because the energy in the propellant was more efficiently used.
@@SurmaSampo The "rocket effect" with firearms is real. Otherwise redirecting the spent gasses with a muzzle brake would have no effect. The thrust comes from the mass of the propellant being accelerated and ejected from the muzzle. Solid-fuel rockets eject gas from combusted propellents to produce thrust. The thrust would be less than shooting a bullet largely because a rifle-rocket is not very efficient. Relatively more of the powder's energy goes into heat than into thrust. The results of your experiment are accurate, but only because most of the powder's energy was not utilized. The reaction rate of smokeless propellents depends upon high pressure and temperature. The soot in the barrel indicates that much of the propellant did not burn. Substitute black powder and the thrust would be a little higher, but still less than shooting a bullet. Again, rifle-rocket engines are not very efficient.
I think that new army cartridge/rifle swap is going to meet a swift death once they come to the logical conclusion it's going to burn out barrels and it's a step backwards to heavy rifles and ammo not to mention being much harder to shoot in full auto. Now if it was going to replace DMR or semi-auto sniper platforms I think they're on to something.
My understanding is that lower pressure ammo will be used for training, so the barrel life will be fine. An important issue is that the full power ammo has a huge ricochet and danger area, bigger than most of the current rifle ranges. That is another reason that reduced-range ammo will be used for most training. If you know your history, a similar thing happened around 1924. After WW I the US developed the new 174gr M1 bullet for its 30-06 rifles and machine guns. This new bullet had a higher BC and it extended the range beyond many existing practice areas. The Army's solution was to use lower-BC M2 bullets. In effect, the US used reduced-range ammo through WWII and Korea.
@@jfess1911 Fess, I don't understand why the .277 Fury bullets at 3,000 fps or even 3,200 fps would increase "ricochet and danger area" to any significant degree. Military snipers are training with and employing 300 Win Mag., 416 CheyTac, 416 Barrett and similar high velocity, heavy bullet, long range tools. Also, I'm wondering why the military would develop a long range 174-gr. bullet for the 30-06 and then reduce its long range potential by loading it down? What was the point of that? I don't pretend to be an expert on military ordnance, but this idea makes no sense. Can you elaborate?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast The story about 30-06 ammo is found in Hatcher's Notebook, pages 19-25. Even Wikipedia has it right on its 30-06 page. Most US military bases were set up during WWI and the "danger zones" of their practice ranges were sized for the M1906 ammo used at the time. The M1 ammo was retained for competition and may have been used by some snipers. Current snipers have their own ranges and tend not to miss when using the shorter ones. The US Military has been using reduced-range training ammo (RRTA) for 5.56x45, 7.62x51 and especially for 50 BMG. The bullets are designed with fins on the back or flutes on the ogive to slow bullet rotation and cause instability after a few hundred yards. The ballistic match is good to a certain distance, but then the RRTA bullet loses stability and begins to yaw which dramatically increases drag and reduces range. A search for "reduced range bullet" will provide some images. Use of current steel-cored EPR ammo (M855A1 and M80A1) is prohibited at some practice ranges, largely because the steel cores ricochet so much.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast According to Hatcher, the push for sleeker 30-06 bullets was from machine-gunners. Long-range machine gun fire was a big deal in WWI. During the war, US soldiers learned that the French and English machine guns shot sleeker bullets that went significantly farther than their own 30-06's. The 174 grain .30 M1 Ball round was developed to extend the 30-06's range. According to Hatcher's Notebook, starting page 23: "... in 1925 the type E 9 degree boat tailed bullet was adopted as standard for both rifles and machine guns, and the ammunition was called the .30 caliber M 1. The bullet had a gilding metal jacket and a new and improved ogive, of 7 calibers radius, giving it a slightly better form factor than the very similar looking ogive on the 1906 bullet. The muzzle velocity was 2700 feet per second, and the extreme range was 5900 yards, as against 3400 for the 1906." On page 25, Hatcher describes what happened when the M 1 went into service: "The new ammunition had so much longer range and carrying power that it began to shoot beyond the previous danger zones of the existing ranges. The National Guard Bureau then requested the War Department to make up some ammunition like the old 1906 to use on the restricted ranges....This short range ammunition was made as much like the 1906 as possible. It had a 150 grain flat base bullet, but the jacket was of course made of gilding metal instead of the old cupro-nickel....More rounds could be carried for the same weight, etc., so the suggestion was made and carried through that it should be substituted for the M1. In 1940 this ammunition with some slight further changes, was standardized as Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 M 2."
For some reason, the 6.5mm did not become popular in the US until recently. The 264 Win Mag bombed. It might be because it was close to 25 cal/257 and the 270 Win was always popular.
Please please compare the 6mm Lee Navy & the new 277 Fury just general RS overview BC . 6 mm Lee Navy was the wonder child of 19 century , burnt out barrels of the time , the first smokeless powder cartridge adopted by the USA via reverse engineering yes there were issues , was flat shooting or maximum point blank range pre spitzer , predated that also Double to combat load for the USMC from the 45.-70 or 7×57mm Mauser a few or mor engagements were won by the USA because the Spanish ran out of 7×57mm Mauser and surrendered . How would a modern 6mm Lee Navy with long spitzer high BC compare to the new wonder child 277 fury
Remington = 1816 The oldest American gun manufacturer Ilion NY, its a shme what has happened to them, i just so hope the new owners get it back to what it once was, im not sure what it is, but i just feel like Remington is it for me, and has been sense i was 12 and got my first Remington 760, and man o man that was it form then on im a Remington man through and through
Or it may launch an entire new line of cartridges. Imagine a 6.5 Furry, 300 Furry, 338 Furry and etc. personally I can’t wait to get a Sig Cross rife in 277 Furry. I’m thinking what a great hunting rifle, great velocity out of a 16”bbl now it’s completely feasible to run a suppressor and not have an excessively long rifle.
I’m not a hunter so maybe I’m missing something, but why is it Ron has said in the past a .270 is fine for elk but the 6.5 is somehow deficient? Especially with modern bullet construction. It just seems he has a slight bias that maybe at play. We all have bias it exists and it’s usually based on random irrelevant factors.
Dan, I've also said the 243 Win. can be deadly on elk. It's a matter of degrees. All else being equal (bullets and placement) the larger, longer, heavier bullet should provide a bit more of what a larger animal might require. This is highly variable case by case, but when advising new elk hunters I think it's wise to err on the side of more bullet than less. That noted, I'd have no hesitation engaging an elk with the right 6.5 bullet.
The 270 isn't just a slightly bigger bullet then a 6.5 Creedmoor, it also has 50% more powder behind it. That gives it more energy. Don't forget modern bullet construction doesn't just apply to the cartridge you like. It applies to both of them. This means a 270 today is far more lethal then it was when it was invented. This adds to confusion as a Hornady Superformance or Buffalo Bore solid copper may put out energies not recommended in reloading manuals.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Thank you for your consistent intent on accuracy. I just hope you realize that the internet won’t always respond well. I just keep thinking you really need to have a “reunion” with the .45-70…
When loading Black powder cartridge it was easy. No scale. No trimming. Just measure a cut off case and dip and pour. Grease a cast bullet and using a nut cracker tool seat and crimp. Then smokeless came out! All of the podcasters were holding the reigns on the comment section about how someone is going to use one of those new high pressure rounds in an old rifle and kill themselves. You can't just put a bunch in a case it'll key ya! Now we have a very fast burning powder. Something like putting pistol powder in a rifle. A three piece case to handle it. Somebody's gonna put one in a old rifle and it'll key ya!
I think the steel/brass case at 80K psi is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't think this rifle will last as long as the M14 did. I know the M14 is still around, but it was only standard issue for a short time. I thought they would stick to the M16/AR15 platform and go with the 6 ARC. Since they're going with a new rifle, why not a 7-08 or 6.5CM? The most important thing when considering a new standard issue rifle is reliability. Reliability is more important than accuracy. The 6 ARC had enough energy and was accurate out to 1000 yards. The 7-08 or 6.5CM would have had more energy and range. Easily out to 1200 yards. These three options are better than the 5.56, 7.62, and the 6.8x51. The only people needing the shorter barrel are tankers, airborne, etc... That's just my opinion though.
SOCOM has a program with the 6.5CM and France with the 260Rem. The main problems with the 6 ARC are kinetic energy for barrier defeat at distance, feeding issues in AR15 rifles, and a significant loss of performance with the lower density (and consequently lower BC) copper/steel EPR bullet that the Army prefers. The mag well width is the issue because it was optimized for the smaller-diameter 5.56x45. Well-tuned and clean mags can do fine, but do not represent battlefield conditions. To give you some perspective, the SIX8-UICW rifle used by Jordan and Saudi Arabia has a wider mag well even though the 6.8 SPC has a smaller diameter than the 6 ARC.
Manufacturer Sig Sauer Pricing Unit BX Model Elite Ball UPC 798681659821 SKU E277SFB13520 Application Target,Range Practice Bullet Type Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) Bullet Weight 135 GR Caliber 277 Fury Casing Material Brass Muzzle Energy 2267 ft lbs Muzzle Velocity 2750 fps Rounds Per Box 20 This is the only ammo I’ve seen on the market so far. As you can see by the speed listed, it is not loaded to 80k or a hybrid case. But maybe that will show up in the future.
Once the Europeans come out with their bullpup 277fury (6.8-08) the Americans will realise what they are missing with that short barrel. Heck a bullpup could that velocity with no where near those pressures required or expensive bi metal cases.
I agree, but apparently one of the main gripes about rifles that shot the True Velocity polymer round was the bullpup layout. It appears that the testers insisted that the new round be no larger than the 7.62x51 (several were proposed for the NGSW program but none got through the first down-select). Barring the development of an entirely new type of propellant, the only way to get the velocity they wanted out of a 13" barrel was high pressure.
@@ancientrenegade9243 A curious comment that I have heard attributed to the Marines is something along the lines of they would prefer a NGSW bullpup. The Marines have traditionally emphasized marksmanship, so maybe they appreciate the advantages of longer barrels more.
@@ancientrenegade9243 Bullet velocity will suddenly become a very big issue when we eventually come up against an opponent that has decent body armor. The US does not have a good source of tungsten (most of the world's known tungsten is in China and Russia), so most of the US rifle ammo will have steel penetrators. High velocity will be absolutely critical to penetrate even level III+ body armor. Not many people realize that even 7.62x51 has very limited ability to penetrate even mediocre body armor beyond a couple hundred yards.
Round count before the tube is trashed?bullet speed out of that published pressure. Till it shows up into the local store racks and some reviews from gun writers like you it's only a hype
Manny, I haven't done deep research on the 277 Fury/6.8x51, but would have to assume SIG engineers carefully and thoroughly worked it out. I'm not as quick to credit the military for being equally thorough, given past choices, but I seriously doubt that during several years of development and testing they'd be selecting a serious barrel burner. From what I've learned about barrel burnout, it's the heat at the throat (mainly) that does the dirty work, not the pressure, although there is significant correlation between the two. Time will tell.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Thank you for your post and yes the published pressure makes it a whole new animal if you may. Everything to make it work will be new. These is one of the reasons I started following your blog, thank you sir.
SIG already sells a lower pressure (all-brass case) practice round. The Army plans to use RRTA (Reduced Range Training Ammo) for most training, so barrel life won't be that bad. The new fancy optic will digitally adjust for the different trajectories.
Sorry, but factory loads for the “ public” are around at regular 308 win etc level. Additionally I don’t by anything from a company like Blaser Germany- Sig Sauer, due to fact they spread lies like handloads caused the Blaser R93 straight pull rifles to blow up ! In Europe these rifles got the nickname “Gardena” action. A piece of junk plastic to lock the radial locking mechanism!! Hunters around the world are disabled for the rest of their live with torn to pieces faces , eyes etc. Many got never any kind of compensation!! Think about it!
Jan, I advise readers to check your claims for accuracy, since you offer no evidence. I do know SIG is selling .277 Fury rounds to the public with the high pressure, steel case loads.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast the info is out there, the problem is its shadowbanned on this platform. I just tried to post data twice, which was promptly removed twice. I highly discourage putting faces behind a bolt with fingers for lugs that can fatigue, and nothing else to stop rearward movement.
The fear of recoil kicks harder than the recoil itself
Well the round is meant to only be fired suppressed, so yeah there may be an issue with the 80,000 psi!!!
That was the conclusion Hiram Maxims brother came to. He believed his “silencer” would help recoil shy shooters. And ultimately it reduces recoil and noise.
The combination of high pressure and moderate powder load will reduce its recoil a little vs 270 WSM or 270 Win. More energy goes into pushing the bullet and less to "rocket thrust" from the expended propellant leaving the muzzle. Its target market is hunters who use suppressors and want a shorter overall package. I doubt that it will be any fun to shoot from a light hunting rifle with no suppressor or brake, though.
That's what I thought when I first shot a .338 Lapua Magnum in a bolt action..
I heard a old timer say, something along the lines of, "My opinion is, Take a heavy recoiling gun, and shoot it 'til that part of your brain that detects recoil is completely dead, once you got that accomplished, felt recoil is no longer a problem"
Couldn't agree with you more Mr. Spomer regarding a .22 rifle. Nothing like a good .22 and a brick of ammo and some friendly competition with friends. Everyone loves a .22.
Ron, two thumbs up, again. Glad to hear you touch on controlling recoil. Shoot often, but stop each session before developing a flich. Each human body accepts/perceives recoil differently, I believe. Often a child or a small woman handles a 30-06 better than a power lifter.
BTW, "can get by with one rifle, just don't tell my wife". As she stands behind the camera. Now that's funny. Keep well.
Cheers, Jeff.
I started with a 22, then jumped to a 270, then settled in the 30-06, started reloading for it and I'm happy here 😊
I can shoot heavy bullets, light bullets, fast bullets and super slow subsonic bullets.
I shoot inside my shop almost every day. Offhand, peep sights, 16 feet into a cardboard bb trap with a sheet of Kevlar to stop it. I am old but can still make 1/4" groups.
here’s a crazy one: .277 fury in an 8.6 blackout equivalent 1:3 barrel and a 18” to boot! ohhhhhhh snap!!!
Sig cross rifle is the .277 fury and in one of the last videos someone was asking bout tumbling, I’m pretty sure they were asking wet tumbling vs dry tumbling
You are a very knowledgeable man Ron, i like just listening to you, share the wisdom Sir, so thank you for that, and we hope you and yours had a great 4th!
Thank you Ron for today's episode. Many years ago I had A Remington 660 in 6mm Rem and sold it to my business partner for his wife to use deer hunting. Wish I had that little gem now. Sort of ugly but shot really well with hardly any recoil.
I also had a Remington Model 660 in 6mm Remington back in the seventy’s . Really enjoyed shooting it. Compact, but heavy. Also very accurate. Almost no recoil. Regrettably, I sold it. Of course as a young man cash was hard to come by back then. Several decades later, I still miss it.
Wow! that was greT imformattion packed in the video. nice music too.
Jim from Backfire has a Sig Sauer Crossfire in 6.8. He likes it.
7:50. Elj's question about a longer barrel and felt recoil. Some help for you if I may. You are correct in stating that the recoil energy is provided from the round starting its journey down range. That energy is imparted into the rifle as a given amount in ftLBs. A heavy rifle will be forced to move but more slowly and a lighter rifle more quickly. The velocity component of the equation is what influences felt recoil. They both have the same induced energy but it manifests differently. Yes, stock design, materials and recoil pads make a difference, but like-for-like it's rifle mass that is the driver.
Love your channel Ron. Keep it up. Been a subscriber for years.
Thank you for another great upload, appreciate what you said about recoil and learning to manage it! Especially with the lady hunters , I’ve learned with loading 7 rem mag or 300 win mag using retumbo, h1000, or r26 topped with a Barnes bullet, the felt recoil seems drawn out compared to the fast punch of faster burning powders , then the terminal ballistics of that mag combination makes it all worth while. Thank you again Ron, keep up the great work
Thanks Scott. I'm always interested in theories about different "felt" recoil, usually reported as a "big shove instead of sharp jolt." Both your 7mm and 300 are usually described as having that sharp jolt because they are so fast. But I've discovered no science/physics to support it. Or at least not any that correlate to calculate values for free recoil energy, recoil velocity, and recoil impulse (momentum spread over time.) The recoil calculators I consult invariably show a direct correlation between ejecta mass, bullet velocity, rifle weight and all recoil values. Thus, the 300 WM spitting 180-gr. bullet 3,000 fps ahead of 77 grs. powder compared to 458 WM spitting 400-gr. bullet 2,400 fps and 82-grs. powder: Recoil energy, velocity, and impulse for 300 are: 32.2 fp, 16.1 fps, and 4 lbs/sec. For 458 WM they are: 71.8 fp, 24 fps, and 6 lbs/sec. This is pretty much what calculations show whenever I measure recoil of the so-called sharp kickers vs. the slow pushers. So I don't know what folks are feeling when they report this. Impulse would seem to define the felt push, since it is recoil spread over time, but the impulse calculation numbers don't show this. Nor do the recoil velocity numbers. Now, to your point, a slower burn rate powder suggests recoil spread over time, but we're talking differences of milliseconds and, ideally, complete burn with bullet still in barrel. Once the bullet exits, the still expanding gases not only go boom, but pass the bullet and create additional recoil. Muzzle brakes reduce this effect by dissipating the gasses. Suppressors slow the gasses by routing them through baffles. I wonder if we humans can detect a recoil difference of a few f-p or pounds-per-second impulse spread over milliseconds? Many of us report we do.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast thank you, appreciate the information in your reply and taking the time to reply.
Disappointed by the military choosing this new WHIZ-BANG cartridge. They should go back to 308 and call it a day. Lower pressure, efficient in short barrels, and much more longevity.
agree -- seems like someone got really sold on marketing hype on this one -- totally useless to the average consumer for sure
I found the stock fit contributes a lot to felt recoil. I once had a rifle with a stock too short for me. It beat me horribly. I restocked it and tamed it to a puppy.
One gun? My grand dad only owned one gun, a 12 ga. Winchester pump. He hunted everything with it: deer, squirrels, rabbits, turkeys, ducks, pigs, whatever needed hunting. That was decades ago, but any hunter could do the same today. You will learn to get close.
The M5 rifle will only be issued to Close Combat forces. There will be 2 ammunition types: training ammo at lower pressure and combat ammo at higher pressure. All M5s have a suppressor.
It's going to be a standard rifle until it isn't. Politics somewhere may limit or delete it from the inventory.
@@orlock20 hard to predict the future. The contract has been awarded. There will be a two gun Army …. M5 for Close Combat forces and M4 for others. Which is good IMO… the Close Combat folks do a very high % of shooting. The M5 system should significantly increase lethality.
Obviously in xx years there will be a new better rifle. .. maybe a 40 watt phased plasma rifle :)
The 6.8 is great for snipers and belt-fed guns, but might be too much for the average soldier. However, if you gave the 223/5.56 the same case treatment, you might get an 77gr to go 3000fps out of a beefier M4. Now that would be something worth using.
The 600 also came in 6mm Rem and 308 on the Rem 788 rear locking lugs action very accurate and handy.
Remington man through and through, as a left handed person, their pumps are just perfect!
Dang! Thought I was subscribed. Am now. Thanks Ron.
Hey that's a nice picture on your wall. Elk in the mist.
Thanks MacMan. I captured it during a magical day in Jackson Hole. Early Oct. snow squalls. Moody. Hope to start selling prints soon.
I one round for all is a 180grain 30 06. I have deer bear and elk hunted with it. I have used the same platform. A pump 30 06 rifle for over 20 years....I feel old now 🤣
My dad has a remington 760 in 30-06 to I use a blr in 308 no bolts in my family
When I first heard LBTSWC my first thought was Lead boat tail, but it didn't make sense because it was a semi wad cutter pistol round. Then I got Left Barrel Twist in my head, and now I have no idea
a civilian round? what is that. hmm never heard that just heard about calibers. didnt know there was a "civilian" one. Thank god there is a difference i wouldnt want "civilians" getting ahold of the "non-civilian" rounds. OHHHH SCARY
The lack of comprehension skills in the civilian market can be scary too.
Military ammunition has rules agreed upon. A country cannot issue poisoned bullets. Cannot issue hunting type expanding tip bullets. Explosive rounds like that used for anti aircraft cannot be used to strafe troops. A foreign sniper bragged of using an explosive .50 cal on enemy hiding behind a wall. That was illegal use of ammo.
@@Dale37whenever I hear someone say military grade I start tweaking🤣💀
A basic hunters 3 gun battery is a .22, a +- .30 rifle and a shotgun 12 or 20 Ga
Solid choices. I'd be so bold as to claim the 30-06 in the center spot.
Speaking of actions Ron, would you maybe do a show comparing and contrasting some of the bolt actions on the market for custom/home rifle makers?
Maybe some caveats are needed. Regular size action, not for big bore African hunting or long range target shooting.
The 350 Rem Mag was the one rifle I regret getting rid of :-( :-(
Had a Remington 600 with the old vented rib on the barrel and the laminate stock.. that thing was a beast it put deer down fast and surprisingly not to much meat damage..
The 350 Rem Mag was a cartridge that Jeff Cooper used.. as well as the 376 Styer.. that thing is even more of a hard hitting hammer but I would rather have the 350 Reming Mag... it would be a good allaround cartridge if a person is a hand loader...
I would think a 20" barrel would be about perfect for this cartridge... easy handling and still can pack a punch
Thanks for videos Ron Spomer
That rem 350 mag used to kick like crazy off the bench it wasn't bad standing or other
If I have to pick 3 it would be .22 lr, 30-06 and a 12ga. Lol I just hope I never have to narrow things down to 3🤣. I think one in every caliber and gauge is about right 😁
To mechanically moderate recoil you have a few options.
A) Heavier rifle ( Thick bull barrel, steel parts, hardwood stock)
B) Lead weights in the stock ( I saw liquid metal weights added to a stock before)
C) Semiautomatic action may help ( BAR Mark III)
D) Muzzle brake ( PA M4-72, Ultradyne Apollo)
E) Varmint loads (110gr 308)
F) Metal chassis system ( AICS or Sage EBR)
G) Non lead based bullets
H) Aluminum casings
I) Ruger ARX type bullet designs.
J) A ballistic tip may help reduce some minimal weight. ( Hornady, Nosler, Federal)
K) Thinner bullet design (6.5CM,.243 Win)
L) Sleeker bullet design
M) Smaller caliber (5.56,.243,.270)
N) Suppressor
O) Metal bipod ( Harris, Atlas)
P) Metal magazines
Q) Recoil buffer?( Saw this in a Kalashnikov once)
R) Faster powder with lighter bullets?
S) Inline stock
T) Thick rubber recoil pad
U) Reduced recoil ammunition ( Hornady)
All of these options can help reduce recoil to some degree.
i dunno of this was in your options but I remember seeing some of those 50bmg videos of military and some of their 50bmg actually have a literal shock absorber in the stock where, when you see them shoot, you can see the shock reciprocating in real time and it is facinating to watch! Maybe that was mentioned as a part of your options in the steel chassis one but, I am not familiar with all the technical terms. However, the liquid metal counterweights intrigued me greatly! Mercury? or the other liquid metal? Fascinating I am going to try to google them.
I really like. 22 lr. They're cheap enough to get that you can try out different platforms and sights or scopes or red dots to really dial in on what you shoot the best. Open sights lever action, scope on a bolt action, red dot on a marlin semi auto. I prefer to hunt bigger stuff like deer with a. 308 Winchester. I know I want a 233, a 6.8 western, a 300 RUM and another 30/30, in the future.
For goodness sake people, please stop claiming that all civilian ammo will be at low pressure. It has not hit the retail shelves yet, but the high pressure ammo will become available, hopefully before long. SIG's promotional material for the launch of the 277 SIG Fury made a point of showing how awesome the high-pressure hunting ammo will be. The SIG website currently lists both low-pressure all-brass case 135 grain FMJ ammo and 150 grain bonded, polymer-tipped high-pressure hunting ammo that uses the steel-bottom "hybrid" case. Here are the specs for the high-pressure stuff.
Ammo Type Rifle
Caliber 277 FURY
Grain Weight 150 gr
Qty Per Package 20
Muzzle Velocity [16in 2830] [24in 3120]
Muzzle Energy [16in 2667] [24in 3242]
Ballistic Coefficient (G1) 0.500
Holding holding the rifle away from your shoulder when you're firing it, it messes up your accuracy. It's also a good way to get kicked in the face
LBT or Lead Bullet Technologies was a company started by Veral Smith. He designed several hardcast bullet designs most were referred to either WFN or wide flatnose designs and were non expanding in concept. They used nearly full bullet diameter meplats and were designed for hunting in big bore revolvers and lever action rifle cartridges. I can attest to their effectiveness in energy transfer with revolvers on deer and hogs.
Bingo! I do not think they are in business anymore. I would just add that the bullets were also designed for ease of casting. Very good hunting bullets but terrible for long range target shooting generally speaking. -Tutt
Great video 👍 i think for us reloaders the opportunities are endless. I have 270 win light load 110gr vmax super accurate pushing 3050ish f/s minimal recoil, to full loads with 150gr ablr and decent recoil. Have 300 win mag pushing the 220gr woodleigh weldcore and 308 loaded with 125-178gr various loads and 22 rifles. If i had to pick one rifle for everything it would be a 270 because of the wide variety of projectile options, good bc with good velocity.
You should be getting way more than 3050 with a 110. I believe the numbers i saw in the load data when i was messing around with the 110g was about 3400 or so. I was routinely pushing 130s over 3000
Yes thats right correct. I created this light load for target shooting and varminting with light recoil. I have full loads too
Thanks for a shout out to the leftys. Growing up it was shotguns or lever actions. Unless you had lots of $$ even used for a bolt rifle.
I got lucky for my first. 16 yrs old and a lefty 7mm rem mag.
Older now still love mag but use a single shot 280 rem single 20ga or my 44mag Redhawk. Unless I am shooting long range or bigger than whitetails on the east coast
Later in this cast what everyone needs.. 22lr 20g or 12g past that is up to discussing.
Ron, I'm not sure, but regarding the "perceived recoil" question, I think what they meant is what makes more difference, the foot lbs of recoil, or the velocity in fps of the recoil. I'm not sure how accurate this figure is, but say a 375 H&H in a 9 lb rifle shooting a 300 grain bullet is 38 foot lbs at 16.3 fps into the shooter. I tend to think this was what the questioner was referring to, and not velocity of the bullet, which of course makes a difference. I cannot say for sure. I would agree that some cartridges and loads feel different and some are more of a slow push while others are extremely sharp. Great pod cast as always! -Tutt
I'm not sure either, Andy, but I'm guessing both count about equally. Obviously there is no recoil without velocity, but velocity without mass is lighter than air. That said, I've noticed a lot more increase in recoil energy compared to velocity when ramping up bullet weight.
I'm really excited about the 277 sig.
We use moderators here as standard so the blast and recoil will not be all that bad.
I currently have a 6.5wssm wild cat with a 17" heavy barrel and that rifle is beutifull and balanced at the front action screw.
But it's slow. 130gr is doing just over 2500fps
So that 277 sig is really appealing
You are exactly the type of shooter that will benefit from the 277 Fury. Its main advantage over the existing WSM and SAUM cartridges is performance with shorter barrels.
@@jfess1911 that's the hope
Cool video
Ron, I believe he was referring to recoil velocity as in the rate the rifle is coming back. It's like shooting a 375 h&h and it feels like it has more recoil than a 416 rem mag.
Could be. The 375 H&H with a 300 gr. at 2,500 fps recoils 18.1 fps. 416 RM with 400 gr. at 2450 fps recoils 21.75 fps. Both in 9# rifles, so the recoil is actually faster from the 416. I check these every time someone brings up the "slow push instead of sharp jolt" theory of felt recoil. It makes sense, but when I run the numbers the supposedly slower push cartridge/rifle usually recoils faster. So I don't know what it is we're feeling. Why doe a heavier bullet delivering faster recoil feel like " a slow push?" Beats me.
I think a good ol 12 gauge should be thrown in there I know you were talking about rifles but I think a good scatter gun is a must.
Energy is a combination of velocity and mass.
'Tis indeed. I believe Mr. Einstein described it as E=mc2
On the recoil question, basic physics might support having the rifle off your shoulder a little. If you increase the time and distance over which a force is applied, the force is less. Nice video 👍
Nah man, doesn't work like that.
Try that out with something that actually has reasonable recoil like a 375H&H or 458WM.
Allowing the rifle to recoil freely before contacting your shoulder will be far worse than just absorbing the recoil from the onset.
@@tun0fun Agreed. The recoil acting against the rifle alone will turn your rifle into a mass that then smashes into the shooter, vice the recoil acting against the combined mass of rifle and shooter at the onset.
basic non biological physics against the biological physics of my body and how my shoulder gets badly bruised when I had tried to do what you say? nah. nah nah nah. It don’t work like that, as the other commenter stated. You are not considering the entirety of the factors involved, summarily, the interaction of an object controlled by nonbiological physics, interacting against the skin and blood and bones of your personal physiology
but, as you yourself have named your own self for the internet😅, you are a knobjob. So, maybe I should not
have taken issue with your incorrect understanding of basic physics.
In short, holding on loosely works well for .38 Special, but not so well on big bore rifles.
Lbt is lead bullet tech if my memory is still working they did make very high quality molds went bankrupt 20years ago. The bullets had wide flat ogive and lead the way for the 300grn bullets in 44 and 45 cal
Just call Verrell from LBT he still makes bullet molds and they are great.
The Aussie Lithgow LA101 are Rimfires in a lefty version. Lithgow are our military arms manufacturer that has diversified into the recreational shooter market. Sadly they only don’t do them in the LA102 Centrefires ☹️
how is a recreational market possible for yall if yall’s laws deny ownership?
Higher pressures also equate to quicker throat erosion and short barrel life.
I wonder what kind of primer they are using they flatten at way less
Lead Bullet Technology is a bullet mold company started by Veral Smith of Moyie Springs, Idaho.
He makes some very good bullet molds, great lead hardness tester and used to sell cast bullets using his unique bullets molds.
His bullet designs make for very effective cast hunting bullets.
-Mike
Thanks for the details, sir. I used to hunt deer and turkey up that way. Too bad I didn't know about Mr. Smith.
Howdy Ron, im a left handed shooter, ive never had a left handed action gun, but there is no better gun for a left handed person than a Pump Action, im now 34 and got my first pump when i was 7, it was a (IMI Timber Wolf .357 MAG Pump Action) and shot my first buck with it that year, when i was 12, i got my Remington 760 Game Master .308, i'm a Remington Pump man through and through, i also have a 7600 30-06 and a 7600 35 Whelen and they are my favorite hunting rifles, my Remington's have never failed me, and ive killed all my game animals, with them except my very first which was with my .357 MAG with a perfect heart shot, but having the action on the right side of the gun has never bothered me, but a lot of guys have asked me how i shoot with the action so close to my face, but again its never bothered me.
AMERICA STRONG
STAY FREE
LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC
30.06 can do everything in United States, it may not be optimal for the low end and the high end, it will get it done with the right bullet. I would be ok with a .243 or a 7mm-08 and a .300winmag to cover the bases a little better. If you get a .556, you can shoot .223 and you will have no problem finding ammo, same with .308/7.62x51. The latter two are what I own and will handle what I need.
Yes, for assured ammo, you can't beat the 223 Rem and 308 Win. Not bad for handling most chores, either. And if you handload you can make the 223 shoot about as slowly as a 22 Long Rifle. Versatile.
277 fury could be neat. I am very curious as to throat erosion and barrel life. It takes a lot of money to go fast. Life is about compromise. But I am glad to see the VLD tech finally getting to the 27 calibers. Even the 25 is starting to get some long heavy bullets and faster twist pipes. Get what you want and go shooting. Time in the field and on the range is so much fun.
I believe the wear life of a military barrel is around 10,000 rounds.
yes, and, tax payer dollars pay for a lot of barrels
I'd take a 243 and a 308, both have the better chance of procuring when times gets rough. If you reload I'd pick the 7mm-o8 intead of the 308. By the way, I reload.
Quality .177 airgun, basically shoot for free.
I have a question me and my dad shot the 25wssm for years and sold the rifles because of the ammo not being readily available and we are not reloadeders. In your opinon what is the best compared round in a short action that competes with this round that is fast, flat and light recoiling for deer hunting
I had a Rem 660 in 243 liked to load 80 gr hollow points to 3200 fps, my ears are still ringing, literally.
I like the 280 remington much better than the 270 winchester. People always seem to forget the 280.
Hi Ron. Could an action, say a Rem 700, be barrelled in .277 Fury? I wonder what the bolt thrust of the 80,000 PSI cartridge will be. Do you have any thoughts on this please?
The bolt thrust is a little more than the 300WM, but less than the WSM, SAUM and PRC cartridges. Bolt thrust is max pressure multiplied by the "piston" of the max diameter of cartridge base. The max diameter of the 277 Fury cartridge base is only 0.4703" whereas for the WSM's it is 0.555". In pounds of force, the 277 Fury is about 13,900 lbs-f, which is only about 88% of the WSM's 15,700 lbs-f.
My list would be .22LR, 22-250, 28 Nosler, 340 Weatherby, 416 Weatherby with an honorable mention for the 45-70 lever action! If I had to pick just one for most everything, 300 Weatherby hands down.
Pretty good list, Sako, although that a pretty big jump from 22-250 to 28 Nosler. None will let you down, however. Best of luck with your hunting.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast I’m in WY so not much use for anything that can’t reach out there a bit. I hunted everything for years with just just my STW so for me no need for anything smaller like my 6.5 Creedmore I just sold. It just sat in the safe. But if I were to add to that list, it would be the 25-06!! Still one of my all time favorite cartridges. I know the Creed can best it but it’s nostalgic for me.
More good stuff...I will be an expert soon.
I'm in the stage of one gun right now and I chose a 308 and I'm very pleased with my choice! I'm going elk and deer hunting this year with it, it's the cheapest center-fire you can get. Ammo is in every store, and the recoil is basically nothing! I only shot guns when I was a kid on my grandma's farm and it was a 20g shotgun and a 3006 and I remember it hurt so bad. I thought I didn't like shooting but now in my 20s I wanted to get into only eating meat that I hunt. So when I just bought mine i was debating 308 or 3006, got the 308, shot it, and realized wow I totally could have handled the 06. Didn't take into account the recoil at 25 is nill compared to when you're 10 😆
,308 is fine. If an animal is huge, get closer it'll drop. If it's a grizz, yes, run 338 or 375
@@sasquatchrosefarts yes I plan on 300yd and in I'm not a seasoned shooter yet by any means. And I have no plans on encountering a big bear 😆
What's the recoil impulse for the 277 Fury? I'm guessing it's in-between a 308 and 30-06
So we still have 22,25,and8mm we haven't tried in the 308 casing.80000 psi will destroy barrels in short order.
Randall, I'm not sure that 80,000 will increase barrel erosion. Flame temp at the throat is usually the contributor to erosion. Powder capacity of the .277 Fury is comparable to that of the 308 Win. The expansion ratio will be lower due to the narrower bore, but I'm not sure temps will be radically higher. I can't imagine military choosing a cartridge that would rapidly eat barrels.
At 80,000 psi anyone got concerns about accelerated erosion of the barrel ?
The military barrel is said to be good for 10,000 rounds. However, it might not be worth it to bring it to a gun range. A .22 will go through a paper target and these rounds may tear apart steel targets. If you are doing long range competitive shooting, you maybe shooting less than 20 rounds per competition.
My son shot a 6x6 Bull Elk in Idaho with a .35 Whelen, one shot. 250gr Speer.
Great round. If you reload, try CFE223 with that bullet. It’s a beast with this combination.
@@gsnicholas8522 In that rifle H4895 and H380 have given the best all around results.
@@danielmorgan7351 I don't doubt that one bit. Have you tried CFE223? If not, it might be worth a try for you. Speer has published load data for this combination. I'm using very close to a max charge and getting an average velocity of 2694 and half moa accuracy. This is 338 win mag type performance. Either way the 35 whelen is very underrated.
Hey Ron, the 6.8X51 is going to be used by the Army in 13" barrels with suppressors.
Actually Sig has both, all brass “practice” ammo and the bi-metal 80,000psi hunting ammo available on the commercial market.
According to SAAMI it is 80,000 psi for the civilian rifle. The Elite Bonded Polymer Tipped 277 SIG Fury Hybrid ammo shown on their site is full power. It is advertised to pretty much match the 270 WSM out of 24" barrels (3120fps) and produces 2830fps out of a 16" barrel (matching 270 from 24" barrel)
@@jfess1911 they say 140 gr bullet at over 3200 fps from a 24" barrel.
@@danel5611 I wouldn't call the solid brass ammo, "practice ammo". It will be right between the 260 and 308 in energy. Adequate for all regular game. This is what most people will shoot 90% of the time. The hybrid HP ammo is the big game or over compensating ammo, like the 7 PRC. Probably never necessary, but fun and confidence inspiring. Nice to know you have the capabilities.
@@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080 The 277 Fury ammo being sold at the moment is the lower-pressure 135 grain FMJ. Although the 140grain full-pressure hunting ammo was shown in the promotional materials at the cartridge's introduction, it has yet to show up on SIG's website. It looks like the 150 grain will be first. You are right though, about the capability of the lower-pressure variant. The brass case ammo will be essentially 277-308AI and plenty for most hunting and target duties.
I have read that the Army is developing a RRTA (Reduce Range Training Ammo) version. This would extend barrel life.
What are your thoughts on a 444 marlin
Going to be interesting to see how many of those 6.8x51's separate running 80k psi with a bi metal case. I think they are pushing physics a little to far. Yes that steel head may take more psi but what keeps them from blowing out at the transition from steel to brass
The way the join and the aluminium sealing ring has been designed. This isn't the first case designed this way for this reason and to ensure higher extraction force.
I am pretty confident that the engineers who designed and tested the case know a lot more about the physics of this then us.
They use a steel washer inside the case to ‘lock’ the two peices together as the case is pressed together. No issues with ammo-its already been greenlit to be fielded starting in the next year or so. The issue is we wont be seeing the 80k psi version released to the public. I think 65k-ish is the max on the commercial ammo. Bummer
@@John_Redcorn_ There are 2 reasons why they will not be available for civilian purchase.
1. The initial order volume by the military means 100% of the production has to go to that order for the first few years.
2. The bi-metal cases have not been certified as safe to reload so they don't want a bunch of idiots blowing up their guns and creating a bunch of bad press.
3. Math is hard.
@@SurmaSampo actually i believe the real reason is current AR-10 platforms cannot handle 80k. Tje new Sig rifle was built around the 80k cartridge and its the only one as of right now that can safely fire the full-house ammo (semi-autos, that is). Youd have ppl swapping out their 6.5cm and 308 barrels in their AR10s and blowing out gas tubes and possibly the back of the buffer tube 😳
@@John_Redcorn_ The reasons I gave are the reasons they actually provided in interview. Retards doing custom barrel swaps to underrated actions is kind of like refusing to sell axes because someone hit themself in the shin.
Tikka t3. Or ruger american. I have the 270 and its sub moa to 200 yrds
The rifle you spoke about that sig makes in the 277 fury is the sig cross. And the two loads are going to be a 140gr and 130gr the 130gr is going to be the armor piercing steel penetrator. Both going either 3000fps or 2850fsp.
Also the proof rounds for that can exceed 100,000 psi .
Velocity shouldn’t have much to do with recoil as the energy/pressure. A .308 out of a 16” barrel will have much less velocity than it will in a 24” barrel. Velocity is a derivative of the energy and expansion of gasses before exit. So the recoil overall is from energy (Newtons 2nd Law). The perception can be lowered via muzzle brake, more weight of gun, better pad for absorbing…but that’s not lowering recoil produced as it it dispersing the energy in other ways. Physics 101
Ron, what do you know about the 22 Nosler?
22 Nosler designed to fit AR15 actions with fast twist rifling and deliver long, high B.C. bullets at MVs about 100 to 150 fps slower than 22-250 Rem. It should push a 55-gr. 3,500 fps, an 85-gr. 2,900 fps from 24" bl. Rebated rim. 30-degree shoulder. 223 Rem COAL.
Left handed action: semi autos.
Just buy a Savage & when the throat gets out of spec. set it back .
The commercial 277 Fury ammo is not going to be loaded to the 80k psi limit. Only the military ammo will be that hot. The commercial stuff is going to max out at around the 65k mark i believe. Still a sweet round for shorter barrels but it wont come near the 80k stuff. Those loadings are going to be wicked.
SAAMI specs give 80,000 psi for the .277 Fury. 135-gr. bullet at 3,000 fps from 16" bl. SIG is advertising 150-gr. factory ammo rated 3,150 fps from 24" barrel. That's about 200 fps faster than full house 270 Win. loads, and the .277 case is 308 Win. size, so... They're getting that extra velocity from something. 80,000 psi pressure would seem to be indicated. These cases include the steel head, too. I don't think they'd bother with the steel head if they weren't loading for 80,000 psi. Until I hear from SIG that they won't load this hot, I have to believe they will. Not much point in a 270-08 at traditional MAP.
Ron, you just relegated my .25-06 to the dustbin.
The 25-06 is a great do it all cartridge for the Midwest/west hunter. Perfect for deer and coyotes
Ha, you give me too much credit. If the old 25-06 hits the bin, it's because they don't/wont give it the fast twist barrels and high B.C. bullets that enable it to reach long range potential everyone seems to "need" today. Plus it's a (horrors!) long action cartridge. Regardless, plenty of us Fudds will continue limping along with its dismal performance, and perhaps a few cheapskate young hunters will inherit an "old fashioned" bolt-action rifle in 25-06 and, in the process of shooting up Grandpa's old ammo, discover it's worth keeping.
Ha ha....i just bought a heavy barreled remington 700 in 25 06 and man is it minty i think the only finger prints on it in the last 40 ish years are mine lol it even came with a weaver accutrak? Scope. And I'm pretty sure I'll be a happy camper this sask deer season😁😁
80K psi? This thing should burn barrels like a house afire!
I really think the 22 creedmoor will be the next “must have” caliber. Being able to push a 75 grain .224 projectile that fast is going to appeal to a lot of people.
22-250 with a faster twist rate?
@@SurmaSampo it is all marketing. The 6.5 CM is basically a 250 Savage Ackley Improved necked up to 264.
The .277 Fury is NOT an 80,000 psi round. It is the civilian version of the 6.8x51 military round which has a different makeup and is capable of 80,000psi due to the bimetal case.
One gun would be a 280 rem maby improve it. If I only had two the second would be a 22 mag and it hurts not to say the 257 roberts
I would say L? Boat Tail. L could be lead, but it could be long.
Lead bullet technology, out of Idaho. Casting books by veral Smith. Good reading.
Can a guy reload one of those 277 fury steel head brass body cases???
Nobody knows yet, and reloading would be a low priority for SIG. The new cartridge's greatest strength is effectiveness in short barrels, which will mainly be hunters. Many hunters don't reload. Just look at the percentage of hunting vs target/practice loads being sold in most higher-power cartridges The high-volume competitive shooters tend to use heavier rifles, so the benefits from the shorter barrels would be less for them.
Well if the government wants this round they could keep it in service and have 5 generations of designs to figure it all out then want something new again 🤔
Forgot to say the.277 Fury is not loaded to 80k psi. That pressure is for military use only at this time.
SIG has 150 grain polymer tipped hybrid hunting ammo listed on its site. It is full power and basically matches comparable 270 WSM velocities out of a 24" barrel (3120fps). Out of.a 16" barrel, it is advertised at 2830 fps, about the same as 270 out of a 24" barrel, but using a longer, higher BC bullet.
@@jfess1911 i believe the commercial stuff is only going to be loaded to around 65k psi. We civies wont see the 80k stuff
@@jfess1911 As far as I know the really hot stuff is classified still and there aren't any numbers on it. SIG has the target ammo and then the hot hunting stuff but everything I have heard like Ian from Forgotten Weapons they made it very clear that it was not the full 80kpsi. There hasn't been anything about the projectiles either. I found a study that I believe NATO had something to do with and it seems like.27 might have been the sweet spot in the testing. However it's been tossed around for awhile that it might be the minimum for whatever projectile they are planning to use.
I'm pretty excited about this if we ever get full pressure for hunting. I could see a time when we might be looking at a single rifle with a lot of different ammo. Especially if they get the pressure up to 100kpsi then something like a 16-18" barreled 9mm rifle shooting saboted bullets could be a big deal. The higher pressure and larger bore diameter make it far more efficient and because of the low gas volume a longer barrel is a waste. If we could get the high speeds without the problems of long barrels and burning a lot of extra powder that adds weight to equation as well as a rocket effect. I have always leaned towards heavy bullets for good penetration but if it was possible to throw copper bullets really fast without to much recoil I could see where it would be possible to have smaller lighter rifles that killed more cleanly.
That's just me. I like pushing performance so long as everything is kept balanced and you don't loose function like really light bullets at high speed. The impact speed does increased damage it's just important that it goes all the way through.
@@stormiewutzke4190 SIG list both brass-cased 135 FMJ (lower pressure) and Hybrid-cased 150grain high-pressure ammo. The high pressure ammo is not available yet, so testers like Ian and Garand Thumb had none to test. The 150 grain load is in the steel-base "Hybrid" case, is faster than the 135 and listed at more than double the price.
If you don't want to be a collector or go to Africa, IMO you can get by with 3 rifles. A 22lr or 17HMR a 22-250 or same in AI and a 7mm RM. Not to much you cant shoot with these three.
There are other actions that can handle the pressure. The 700 is one. They are kinda iffy about how they are going to like it. I imagine that any of the actions based off the 700 are probably going to be fine. If they can handle the full 100k psi that the round is supposed to be able to handle.
Besides the combination of velocity and weight including the original powder weight there is a rocket effect as well. It's my personal opinion that the reason you hear that larger bores have a slower recoil vs the hot small bore magnums. I don't know how to test it but all the stories you hear always say that they can handle large bores. It at least fits. The internal volume of a larger bore with the gas pushing against a larger surface is going to make the gas do more work and exit with less energy. Stepping down in bore size there will be far more energy in the gas and it's the same amount of gas in a smaller area so there will be a larger rocket effect. How large I don't know.
The bore surface area has nothing to do with it. It all comes down to energy of the powder acting on the mass of the projectile because what you feel is force and not energy. Once the bullet has left the barrel the remaining hot gas is only acting against the mass of the air it is displacing just outside of the barrel.
Loaf a cartridge and just seal the neck with a cardboard plug. You will find the amount of recoil is massively reduced to what you refer to as "rocket effect". You may want to clean all the soot out of the chamber afterwards as the case will not be able to create a seal with such low pressure.
Stormie is correct. The concept he is describing is called the "swept volume" of a bore. The larger swept volume allows more of the propellant's energy to be imparted to the bullet. If you compare a 243 load and a 308 load using the same amount of powder, the muzzle energy of the 308 will be higher because the energy in the propellant was more efficiently used.
@@SurmaSampo The "rocket effect" with firearms is real. Otherwise redirecting the spent gasses with a muzzle brake would have no effect. The thrust comes from the mass of the propellant being accelerated and ejected from the muzzle. Solid-fuel rockets eject gas from combusted propellents to produce thrust. The thrust would be less than shooting a bullet largely because a rifle-rocket is not very efficient. Relatively more of the powder's energy goes into heat than into thrust.
The results of your experiment are accurate, but only because most of the powder's energy was not utilized. The reaction rate of smokeless propellents depends upon high pressure and temperature. The soot in the barrel indicates that much of the propellant did not burn. Substitute black powder and the thrust would be a little higher, but still less than shooting a bullet. Again, rifle-rocket engines are not very efficient.
Did u talk about 204 yet?
I think that new army cartridge/rifle swap is going to meet a swift death once they come to the logical conclusion it's going to burn out barrels and it's a step backwards to heavy rifles and ammo not to mention being much harder to shoot in full auto. Now if it was going to replace DMR or semi-auto sniper platforms I think they're on to something.
My understanding is that lower pressure ammo will be used for training, so the barrel life will be fine. An important issue is that the full power ammo has a huge ricochet and danger area, bigger than most of the current rifle ranges. That is another reason that reduced-range ammo will be used for most training. If you know your history, a similar thing happened around 1924. After WW I the US developed the new 174gr M1 bullet for its 30-06 rifles and machine guns. This new bullet had a higher BC and it extended the range beyond many existing practice areas. The Army's solution was to use lower-BC M2 bullets. In effect, the US used reduced-range ammo through WWII and Korea.
@@jfess1911 Fess, I don't understand why the .277 Fury bullets at 3,000 fps or even 3,200 fps would increase "ricochet and danger area" to any significant degree. Military snipers are training with and employing 300 Win Mag., 416 CheyTac, 416 Barrett and similar high velocity, heavy bullet, long range tools. Also, I'm wondering why the military would develop a long range 174-gr. bullet for the 30-06 and then reduce its long range potential by loading it down? What was the point of that? I don't pretend to be an expert on military ordnance, but this idea makes no sense. Can you elaborate?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast The story about 30-06 ammo is found in Hatcher's Notebook, pages 19-25. Even Wikipedia has it right on its 30-06 page. Most US military bases were set up during WWI and the "danger zones" of their practice ranges were sized for the M1906 ammo used at the time. The M1 ammo was retained for competition and may have been used by some snipers.
Current snipers have their own ranges and tend not to miss when using the shorter ones.
The US Military has been using reduced-range training ammo (RRTA) for 5.56x45, 7.62x51 and especially for 50 BMG. The bullets are designed with fins on the back or flutes on the ogive to slow bullet rotation and cause instability after a few hundred yards. The ballistic match is good to a certain distance, but then the RRTA bullet loses stability and begins to yaw which dramatically increases drag and reduces range. A search for "reduced range bullet" will provide some images.
Use of current steel-cored EPR ammo (M855A1 and M80A1) is prohibited at some practice ranges, largely because the steel cores ricochet so much.
@@jfess1911 Ah, now it's making sense. Thanks for the details, Fess!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast According to Hatcher, the push for sleeker 30-06 bullets was from machine-gunners. Long-range machine gun fire was a big deal in WWI. During the war, US soldiers learned that the French and English machine guns shot sleeker bullets that went significantly farther than their own 30-06's. The 174 grain .30 M1 Ball round was developed to extend the 30-06's range. According to Hatcher's Notebook, starting page 23:
"... in 1925 the type E 9 degree boat tailed bullet was adopted as standard for both rifles and machine guns, and the ammunition was called the .30 caliber M 1. The bullet had a gilding metal jacket and a new and improved ogive, of 7 calibers radius, giving it a slightly better form factor than the very similar looking ogive on the 1906 bullet. The muzzle velocity was 2700 feet per second, and the extreme range was 5900 yards, as against 3400 for the 1906."
On page 25, Hatcher describes what happened when the M 1 went into service:
"The new ammunition had so much longer range and carrying power that it began to shoot beyond the previous danger zones of the existing ranges. The National Guard Bureau then requested the War Department to make up some ammunition like the old 1906 to use on the restricted ranges....This short range ammunition was made as much like the 1906 as possible. It had a 150 grain flat base bullet, but the jacket was of course made of gilding metal instead of the old cupro-nickel....More rounds could be carried for the same weight, etc., so the suggestion was made and carried through that it should be substituted for the M1. In 1940 this ammunition with some slight further changes, was standardized as Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 M 2."
Why did the 6.5-06 not gain popularity
For some reason, the 6.5mm did not become popular in the US until recently. The 264 Win Mag bombed. It might be because it was close to 25 cal/257 and the 270 Win was always popular.
Please please compare the 6mm Lee Navy & the new 277 Fury just general RS overview BC . 6 mm Lee Navy was the wonder child of 19 century , burnt out barrels of the time , the first smokeless powder cartridge adopted by the USA via reverse engineering yes there were issues , was flat shooting or maximum point blank range pre spitzer , predated that also Double to combat load for the USMC from the 45.-70 or 7×57mm Mauser a few or mor engagements were won by the USA because the Spanish ran out of 7×57mm Mauser and surrendered . How would a modern 6mm Lee Navy with long spitzer high BC compare to the new wonder child 277 fury
80,000 psi is for war and body armor so we can just reach out and touch someone. No moose really needs body armor.
I dunno, those moose are pretty sneaky. :0
@@jfess1911 and tasty
😅
Remington = 1816 The oldest American gun manufacturer Ilion NY, its a shme what has happened to them, i just so hope the new owners get it back to what it once was, im not sure what it is, but i just feel like Remington is it for me, and has been sense i was 12 and got my first Remington 760, and man o man that was it form then on im a Remington man through and through
Anybody else try shooting bullets backwards ? The 80,000 psi may go the way of 10 mm handgun psi
Or it may launch an entire new line of cartridges. Imagine a 6.5 Furry, 300 Furry, 338 Furry and etc. personally I can’t wait to get a Sig Cross rife in 277 Furry. I’m thinking what a great hunting rifle, great velocity out of a 16”bbl now it’s completely feasible to run a suppressor and not have an excessively long rifle.
I’m not a hunter so maybe I’m missing something, but why is it Ron has said in the past a .270 is fine for elk but the 6.5 is somehow deficient? Especially with modern bullet construction.
It just seems he has a slight bias that maybe at play.
We all have bias it exists and it’s usually based on random irrelevant factors.
Dan, I've also said the 243 Win. can be deadly on elk. It's a matter of degrees. All else being equal (bullets and placement) the larger, longer, heavier bullet should provide a bit more of what a larger animal might require. This is highly variable case by case, but when advising new elk hunters I think it's wise to err on the side of more bullet than less. That noted, I'd have no hesitation engaging an elk with the right 6.5 bullet.
The 270 isn't just a slightly bigger bullet then a 6.5 Creedmoor, it also has 50% more powder behind it. That gives it more energy. Don't forget modern bullet construction doesn't just apply to the cartridge you like. It applies to both of them. This means a 270 today is far more lethal then it was when it was invented. This adds to confusion as a Hornady Superformance or Buffalo Bore solid copper may put out energies not recommended in reloading manuals.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Thank you for your consistent intent on accuracy. I just hope you realize that the internet won’t always respond well.
I just keep thinking you really need to have a “reunion” with the .45-70…
When loading Black powder cartridge it was easy. No scale. No trimming. Just measure a cut off case and dip and pour. Grease a cast bullet and using a nut cracker tool seat and crimp.
Then smokeless came out! All of the podcasters were holding the reigns on the comment section about how someone is going to use one of those new high pressure rounds in an old rifle and kill themselves. You can't just put a bunch in a case it'll key ya!
Now we have a very fast burning powder. Something like putting pistol powder in a rifle. A three piece case to handle it. Somebody's gonna put one in a old rifle and it'll key ya!
I think the steel/brass case at 80K psi is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't think this rifle will last as long as the M14 did. I know the M14 is still around, but it was only standard issue for a short time. I thought they would stick to the M16/AR15 platform and go with the 6 ARC. Since they're going with a new rifle, why not a 7-08 or 6.5CM? The most important thing when considering a new standard issue rifle is reliability. Reliability is more important than accuracy. The 6 ARC had enough energy and was accurate out to 1000 yards. The 7-08 or 6.5CM would have had more energy and range. Easily out to 1200 yards. These three options are better than the 5.56, 7.62, and the 6.8x51. The only people needing the shorter barrel are tankers, airborne, etc... That's just my opinion though.
SOCOM has a program with the 6.5CM and France with the 260Rem. The main problems with the 6 ARC are kinetic energy for barrier defeat at distance, feeding issues in AR15 rifles, and a significant loss of performance with the lower density (and consequently lower BC) copper/steel EPR bullet that the Army prefers. The mag well width is the issue because it was optimized for the smaller-diameter 5.56x45. Well-tuned and clean mags can do fine, but do not represent battlefield conditions. To give you some perspective, the SIX8-UICW rifle used by Jordan and Saudi Arabia has a wider mag well even though the 6.8 SPC has a smaller diameter than the 6 ARC.
They dropped the pressure on civilian version.
I've heard it both ways, but based on some of the ammo SIG is selling, they're hitting 80,000 with their consumer Cross rifle.
Manufacturer Sig Sauer
Pricing Unit BX
Model Elite Ball
UPC 798681659821
SKU E277SFB13520
Application Target,Range Practice
Bullet Type Full Metal Jacket (FMJ)
Bullet Weight 135 GR
Caliber 277 Fury
Casing Material Brass
Muzzle Energy 2267 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity 2750 fps
Rounds Per Box 20
This is the only ammo I’ve seen on the market so far. As you can see by the speed listed, it is not loaded to 80k or a hybrid case. But maybe that will show up in the future.
Once the Europeans come out with their bullpup 277fury (6.8-08) the Americans will realise what they are missing with that short barrel. Heck a bullpup could that velocity with no where near those pressures required or expensive bi metal cases.
I agree, but apparently one of the main gripes about rifles that shot the True Velocity polymer round was the bullpup layout. It appears that the testers insisted that the new round be no larger than the 7.62x51 (several were proposed for the NGSW program but none got through the first down-select). Barring the development of an entirely new type of propellant, the only way to get the velocity they wanted out of a 13" barrel was high pressure.
@@jfess1911 I guess bullpups dont look ar enough.
@@ancientrenegade9243 A curious comment that I have heard attributed to the Marines is something along the lines of they would prefer a NGSW bullpup. The Marines have traditionally emphasized marksmanship, so maybe they appreciate the advantages of longer barrels more.
@@jfess1911 it's funny we laugh at the crayon eaters but several times their procurement brass have made very smart choices.
@@ancientrenegade9243 Bullet velocity will suddenly become a very big issue when we eventually come up against an opponent that has decent body armor. The US does not have a good source of tungsten (most of the world's known tungsten is in China and Russia), so most of the US rifle ammo will have steel penetrators. High velocity will be absolutely critical to penetrate even level III+ body armor. Not many people realize that even 7.62x51 has very limited ability to penetrate even mediocre body armor beyond a couple hundred yards.
Round count before the tube is trashed?bullet speed out of that published pressure. Till it shows up into the local store racks and some reviews from gun writers like you it's only a hype
Manny, I haven't done deep research on the 277 Fury/6.8x51, but would have to assume SIG engineers carefully and thoroughly worked it out. I'm not as quick to credit the military for being equally thorough, given past choices, but I seriously doubt that during several years of development and testing they'd be selecting a serious barrel burner. From what I've learned about barrel burnout, it's the heat at the throat (mainly) that does the dirty work, not the pressure, although there is significant correlation between the two. Time will tell.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Thank you for your post and yes the published pressure makes it a whole new animal if you may. Everything to make it work will be new. These is one of the reasons I started following your blog, thank you sir.
SIG already sells a lower pressure (all-brass case) practice round. The Army plans to use RRTA (Reduced Range Training Ammo) for most training, so barrel life won't be that bad. The new fancy optic will digitally adjust for the different trajectories.
There is no limit for to many guns, just how much in your wallet, if you buy one and aventually loose interest, sell it and get a new one
Sorry, but factory loads for the “ public” are around at regular 308 win etc level. Additionally I don’t by anything from a company like Blaser Germany- Sig Sauer, due to fact they spread lies like handloads caused the Blaser R93 straight pull rifles to blow up ! In Europe these rifles got the nickname “Gardena” action. A piece of junk plastic to lock the radial locking mechanism!! Hunters around the world are disabled for the rest of their live with torn to pieces faces , eyes etc. Many got never any kind of compensation!! Think about it!
Jan, I advise readers to check your claims for accuracy, since you offer no evidence. I do know SIG is selling .277 Fury rounds to the public with the high pressure, steel case loads.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast the info is out there, the problem is its shadowbanned on this platform. I just tried to post data twice, which was promptly removed twice. I highly discourage putting faces behind a bolt with fingers for lugs that can fatigue, and nothing else to stop rearward movement.