2017 Jeep Cherokee Review and Road Test | Detailed in 4K UHD!

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  • Опубліковано 26 вер 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 139

  • @LlyleHunter
    @LlyleHunter 7 років тому +30

    Your reviews are so professional, in depth, organized and comprehensive that I can't understand why one of the large fish haven't hired you. Outstanding work as usual Alex.

    • @mountainhobo
      @mountainhobo 7 років тому +16

      Alex is the large fish now. He has 150K subscribers *on his own*. Others may have a little more, but they have to maintain a large staff and overhead. Alex is doing it the old fashioned way, and he is winning.

  • @ericamichelle99
    @ericamichelle99 7 років тому +30

    I had a 2015 Cherokee Latitude. It got totalled on Father's Day last year when a lady ran a red light and t-boned me going almost 50 mph. She was in a Toyota Sequoia. I will say, it took the hit like a champ. I was sad to lose that car but I do believe it saved my life. I walked away with a seat belt bruise. I know the Cherokee has its flaws, but I would still recommend it.

    • @rightlanehog3151
      @rightlanehog3151 7 років тому +3

      Thanks goodness for the safety rules and regulations that have raised crash protection standards across the entire industry.

    • @ravenjames3873
      @ravenjames3873 6 років тому

      EricaMichelle99: well ill take a bruise any day over losing my life. how did there vehicle end up, cause Toyotas have a very durable strong body. but how do you t-bone somebody, and she obviously didn't care about the red light driving that fast. im glad you made it out there safe, but i sware some people shouldn't be driving. i have a 2012 Toyota Tundra SR5, and ill never be that stupid.

    • @overthemoon9941
      @overthemoon9941 5 років тому +4

      OMG ....can’t believe reading ur description of accident..was the EXACT same thing that happened to me sept 2018 half block from my house in my spotless 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee I had owned for 18 yrs!, lady was distracted w.TEXTING AND T-boned my Jeep crashing both driver side doors. I had to crawl out the passenger side. She ignored the stop sign apparently knocking my Jeep Cherokee 6 ft. If I had been in a sedan or a lighter weight car the results would have been a lot worse for me. Thank u Jeep for making such a sturdy safe vehicle.
      Enterprise car rental told me that Stop signs in Utah often were merely a suggestion, lol...she had just moved to Texas.from Utah. Not so in Texas...Stop means STOP...my Atty was able to explain that to her ins carrier......

  • @dinaray2025
    @dinaray2025 7 років тому +25

    Another great review Alex. Your are my Go-To reviewer...

  • @weirdshibainu
    @weirdshibainu 7 років тому +29

    Alex. ..great review. ..format is getting more comprehensive and polished.

  • @talltree9999
    @talltree9999 7 років тому +5

    Best reviews in the business. love the head to head comparisons. it's saving me a ton of dealership travel times and wasted test drives.

  • @greall
    @greall 7 років тому +22

    The reviews on this channel really are different: so in depth and not fan boyish.
    Keep up the good work...#happythatIsubscribed

  • @bryanc3533
    @bryanc3533 7 років тому +3

    This was hands down the best review I have ever seen. I just bought the sport and pick it up tomorrow. I feel much better now, and cant thank you enough. Great job

  • @TheKingkingg
    @TheKingkingg 7 років тому +6

    awesome show Alex, a true fan of your in depth reviews on affordable vehicles.

  • @maestroadam
    @maestroadam 6 років тому +4

    It looks quite nice in that silver/grey color!
    I find that the visual appeal of the Cherokee is very color sensitive.

  • @isaiahmoreno9421
    @isaiahmoreno9421 7 років тому

    Thank god someone who actually has good reviews and someone who knows the car

  • @directorjustin
    @directorjustin 6 років тому +1

    I used to not like the current Cherokee, but this one is very nice with it's interior, features, and power.

  • @spacebunz
    @spacebunz 2 роки тому

    Thanks for the info, I am glad that I went with the 2017 Jeep Cherokee North edition. I appreciate the comparison as I was considering each of these other vehicles.

  • @aaronsalzman4090
    @aaronsalzman4090 6 років тому +1

    Personally I like my 2018 Cherokee Latitude 4 cylinder model. The only con I have against it is the base 4 cylinder engine. I've gotten used to it, but I miss the 230 hp V6 engine in my 2008 Accord EX-L.
    Right after I bought it I took it on a 600+ mile one way road trip, and I found it very comfortable for a road trip. As you noted, the transmission is hesitant to shift from certain gears, but again I got used to it. On the highway I averaged almost 31 MPG, while in my city driving where I live I'm closer to 23-25.
    Like I said, the only con I have for my model is the 4 cylinder engine lacking the pick-up I became used to in my Honda, but I really don't need that for a daily driver.
    4 out of 5 stars in my book.

  • @skylark5789
    @skylark5789 7 років тому +1

    Best and most comprehensive review. Thank You Alex!

  • @revdharp
    @revdharp 7 років тому +2

    Great review. In my opinion, the fuel economy was a bad comparison with the vehicles used. The Nissan and Honda does not even have the same kind of engine and power does not even come close. A better comparison might have the Equinox.

  • @wingktsui3532
    @wingktsui3532 7 років тому +3

    A+ for ride is a surprise

  • @mowcowbell
    @mowcowbell 7 років тому +16

    Gas mileage isn't all that bad, even with the Trailhawk. I can easily get 25mpg on the highway with my V-6 equipped Trailhawk. The secret is to keep speeds under 70mph.

    • @tonylee3213
      @tonylee3213 7 років тому +2

      Try other vehicles under the same conditions

    • @mowcowbell
      @mowcowbell 7 років тому +2

      Tony, I have. A Jeep Wrangler does well to get 20mpg on the highway under the same conditions. There is no competition in the class that has the same off-road capability as the Cherokee Trailhawk.

    • @mowcowbell
      @mowcowbell 7 років тому +2

      That might work on the Limited, but with the extra aerodynamic drag with the Trailhawk, I think the additional drag would kill the mileage. I've never seen 9th gear in my TH, no matter what my speed.

    • @valdius85
      @valdius85 5 років тому

      Do you still have the Ch Trailhawk? How is reliability? I do not care millage as small engine take similar amount in the mountains while climbing and they they useless for engine breaking on the way down.
      The second hand units have good prices in Japan - where I live.
      I could have Gr Ch but the seat is just too big so it is really uncomfortable for me at 5ft5 ;)

  • @j200man
    @j200man 7 років тому

    You are simply the best reviewer, hands down!

  • @Elusive25
    @Elusive25 7 років тому +3

    great design to me

  • @aiartgifts
    @aiartgifts 7 років тому +1

    Thanks Alex, excellent review! I was hoping you wouldn't mention the Honda CRV though... as that truly is the Cherokee's competition for my dollar. I have a 2014 RAV4, and while I like the roominess of the cabin and its car-like drive, the cheap feel to the finishes on the car have always left me wishing I'd bought something else. MPG is averaging 23 in mixed, so a change to the more powerful 3.2 in the Jeep probably wouldn't be a deal breaker. Current incentives are putting a 2017 Jeep Cherokee Latitude with the Comfort & Convenience group, a 8.4 entertainment upgrade and Cold Weather group at 23K or less. Certainly can't get the same bells and whistles on a CRV, making the Jeep that much more attractive. Your review certainly gave me food for thought and the Pros and Cons with other vehicles was spot on. Thanks again.

  • @aztek431
    @aztek431 6 років тому +1

    Great review! I appreciate your thoroughness. Keep up the great work!

  • @tarassu
    @tarassu 7 років тому +2

    What, cabin AIR FILTER is only offered starting from 4th trim level?? What? Are there vehicles costing that much without cabin air filters?
    Interesting, does the 1st trim level offer engine air filter?

  • @jimmacmurdo355
    @jimmacmurdo355 7 років тому

    Alex, another superb review. I believe the final drive ratio for all non-Trailhawk V6s is 3.25 : 1. When combined with the .48 9th gear, the effective final drive ratio is extraordinarily tall 1.56 : 1.

  • @Thebusdriverandgamermorefan790
    @Thebusdriverandgamermorefan790 10 місяців тому +1

    6 years ago, I can own 2017 Jeep Cherokee.

  • @Clonez-sr7to
    @Clonez-sr7to Рік тому

    I love the front end

  • @jackreinsom2526
    @jackreinsom2526 6 років тому +1

    Great reviews bud! keep it up

  • @powerofpinesol8002
    @powerofpinesol8002 7 років тому +1

    Hey Alex great review but in the future can you consider rating the interior quality from 1-10 as it'll be nice to know which car has better build quality in its class. Thanks!

  • @LoveStallion
    @LoveStallion 7 років тому

    I'm glad the AWD/4x4 diagram had that disclaimer. Here I was thinking the axles were not in line with one another. ;)

  • @kc5077
    @kc5077 7 років тому

    The 4WD illustrations were awesome! I think the V6 Cherokees are unique but the competition's 4 cylinders even the New Compass are better all-around performers.

  • @danielskibitcky3098
    @danielskibitcky3098 7 років тому +2

    Good Video Alex, Still watching through but haven't heard any commentary on the ZF9 speed that is a nightmare on most '14-'16s, we have a '15 and it's finicky and I've heard so many issues and false promise of fixes. Gear selection, weird revving, etc. Ours has been flashed over 6 times in 2 years

  • @mariowhyte2816
    @mariowhyte2816 7 років тому

    Alex strikes again!!! Amazing review, maaaaaaan!!!

  • @Grimmspeed715
    @Grimmspeed715 7 років тому

    It can send more than 50%to the rear, it sends 60% to the rear in sport mode

  • @ggolds5
    @ggolds5 6 років тому

    Alex WHEN are you reviewing the brand new 2018 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited. ? Hopefully soon. Thank you.

  • @Jolleyroger848
    @Jolleyroger848 7 років тому

    They need to make cherokee 2-4 inches bigger and upsized the grand cherokee . cherokee cargo room is smaller than the new Compass, needs a bigger fuel tank since it heavier and get less mpgs

  • @stony2494
    @stony2494 3 роки тому

    Does the 2017 Cherokee limited come standard with auto lift tailgate?

  • @JBM425
    @JBM425 4 роки тому

    Is this the same ZF transmission as in the Honda Pilot or Passport? I heard it has been a sore spot in those vehicles. Did it perform better with the Jeep?

  • @mattman6458
    @mattman6458 6 років тому

    Looks good, just redesign the front end completely it looks awful, although on this trip it seems better than the other trims

  • @Muppet_ofa_man33
    @Muppet_ofa_man33 7 років тому +1

    Missed the back seat recline and storage under the passenger seat.

    • @mmalave71
      @mmalave71 7 років тому

      agrassogman back seats recline and are adjustable.

  • @Dante1138
    @Dante1138 7 років тому +1

    Love your reviews as always. Wondering why you never use the Forester as a comp for small crossovers? Compete strongly in sales and performance with the ones that you do use.

  • @mark_r49
    @mark_r49 7 років тому +6

    Styling has been one of the best things about Jeeep/ Chrysler; reliability has not.

    • @rightlanehog3151
      @rightlanehog3151 7 років тому

      That's because styling is easy while Quality, Dependability and Reliability are difficult to achieve.

    • @mmalave71
      @mmalave71 7 років тому +1

      Mark R Jeep drivers are rough on their vehicles. Part of the issue and complex 4 wheel drive systems do break down more than cheap "all wheel" drive systems as well that never leave the pavement.

    • @mark_r49
      @mark_r49 7 років тому +2

      Mark Malave I was referring more to engine reliability for both companies, not just Jeep 4 wheel drive.

  • @trebors386
    @trebors386 7 років тому

    Difference from AWD and 4x4 is one has a part time with high/low transfer case

    • @AAutoBuyersGuide
      @AAutoBuyersGuide  7 років тому

      Some would say so, however not only is there no definition, plenty of 4x4 branded systems have no low ratio mode, including Jeep's systems.

    • @trebors386
      @trebors386 7 років тому

      true, I was still basing this on the old terminology. I think today 4x4 badging should be reserved for a vehicle that can go off roading

  • @lostncal
    @lostncal 6 років тому +3

    Great video; Most reviewers miss the key mission of this Jeep. I personally think the Cherokee competes more with Land Rover i.e. Discovery Sport and less so with the main stream SUVs. My wife has the CRV EXL and although a good car, it doesn't have the ride refinement, features, and capability of the Cherokee esp Trailhawk V6. Entry models aside, the Cherokee drives and feels more like a luxury car than the main stream models mentioned in this video.

  • @pdgable
    @pdgable 7 років тому +1

    +Alex on autos I checked the Jeep website and A/C is standard even on the Sport. Thanks for the excellent review.

    • @AAutoBuyersGuide
      @AAutoBuyersGuide  7 років тому

      It's part of a package on the Sport trim, not standard. You can reference their detailed features list on their media website: chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2017_JP_Cherokee_SP7qar07q434533nsl6kkv473v1n.pdf

    • @pdgable
      @pdgable 7 років тому

      www.jeep.com/hostc/bmo/CUJ201708/models.do?ccode=CUJ201708KLTL74A&llp=2TA and click the standard equipment button. A/C is shown as standard equipment. The link you gave didn't even mention A/C. Not being argumentative but I know that you like to be accurate.

    • @pdgable
      @pdgable 7 років тому

      Sorry Alex. I figured it out. A/C is included as part of the Cold Weather group which is pretty odd! LOL

    • @AAutoBuyersGuide
      @AAutoBuyersGuide  7 років тому +2

      My thoughts exactly. The big thing to know about "base" trims is that just about every company makes them less desirable in some way. FCA deletes air conditioning frequently, GM allows zero options and usually only 2-3 colors, most delete the floor mats, cargo covers, etc

  • @mountainhobo
    @mountainhobo 7 років тому

    That shortened rear bumper is just asking for a very expensive damage to the rear hatch.

  • @marinoint
    @marinoint 7 років тому

    Have you checked out the updated Forester? It is noticeably quieter.

  • @ProdigyMan88
    @ProdigyMan88 7 років тому

    Hi Alex! Please review the all-new 2017 Mazda CX-5. Looks like noise, handling, ride and interior were greatly improved. I liked it even more than BMW X1 after few test drives.

  • @dinaray2025
    @dinaray2025 7 років тому +3

    So - On the 29th of April I test drove a new Cherokee. The ESS (Engine Start-Start), combined with a ZF-9 that was not "flashed" to the latest software (according to my salesman), caused a very, very concerning and less than ideal first impression. I turned it around after two blocks.
    The salesman went out with me and thought initially my lack of acceleration skills were at hand - but oh no. We returned to lot and switched to a GC and wow - why can't they put the 8 speed in the Cherokee? The ESS - if it was installed on the GC - was not noticeable at all. The Herky-Jerky nature of the Cherokee was very discerning and the ESS start occasionally sounded, and felt, as if the engine would come through the firewall into the drive area on a quick shutdown and re-start while making a yielding left-turn. I know there are folks who say to not place full pressure on the brake, but you have to while in the middle of an intersection - I tried to lighten the pressure on brake to keep the engine operating, but it was too dangerous to do as suggested in some forums.
    The salesman suggested we go to another Cherokee and see what it offers and to turn off the ESS before driving. Viola! Now we are talking...I bought it and found there is a module for $125 that can be installed to "remember" your settings of ESS/ECO/Sport modes before turning off the SUV. I will buy one very soon. Wow - the ESS needs to be tweaked or removed - it is not ready for prime time use right now.

  • @baldheadlogic
    @baldheadlogic 7 років тому

    Hey Alex...Great Detailed Review as Always Bud!!! I like the Cherokee. However, my biggest gripe goes to the poor IIHS crash test results. As heavy as it is, this vehicle should not get a "marginal" rating. Also, the 9spd ZF transmission seems questionable as well.

  • @davidwolf226
    @davidwolf226 7 років тому +1

    Alex, any chance you'll be doing a review of the newest Lexus NX this year?

  • @patrick7228
    @patrick7228 7 років тому

    Alex... Get a WRX cvt.. There are enough manual reviews.

  • @elliottmanning4116
    @elliottmanning4116 7 років тому

    I thought the main difference between AWD and Four Wheel Drive is that AWD is automatic and Four Wheel Drive is more of a manual system. For example, a Ford Fusion with with optional AWD has no drive modes to play with the AWD system, so you just drive the car and wait for it to work, but with Four Wheel Drive, you can put it in 4 high or 4 low, or like with a Jeep, it has all of the drive modes for off-roading and hill descent control. None of which are offered in most sedans or crossovers with AWD.

    • @AAutoBuyersGuide
      @AAutoBuyersGuide  7 років тому +1

      The only real difference is marketing.

    • @elliottmanning4116
      @elliottmanning4116 7 років тому

      Alex on Autos So the name has nothing to do with the level of the AWD/Four Wheel Drive system. Got it.

    • @AAutoBuyersGuide
      @AAutoBuyersGuide  7 років тому +1

      Elliott Manning generally speaking they tend to market more robust systems as 4x4 and less robust ones as AWD but there is no firm consensus.

  • @SoundgardenMan
    @SoundgardenMan 7 років тому +1

    I'm curious Alex...are other Jeeps available with the neutral flat tow mode as well?

  • @TonyBarcode
    @TonyBarcode 7 років тому

    Didn't you give the front comfort a 10/10 on the trail hawk Cherokee?

  • @BTC909
    @BTC909 7 років тому

    I hated the front seats (Cloth). Especially the front passenger.

  • @aditikandhari944
    @aditikandhari944 7 років тому

    Hello Alex ... once again, great indepth review ... Do you know if android auto/apple carplay would be coming as an upgrade for 2017 jeep cherokee??

  • @moshariff6320
    @moshariff6320 7 років тому +2

    Deja vu?

  • @lBugslBunny
    @lBugslBunny 7 років тому

    Hey Alex, any review coming up on the Cadillac Escalade?

  • @videoasis
    @videoasis 7 років тому

    Hey Alex, can you do a review of the Dodge Journey Crossroad Plus?

  • @swanblake
    @swanblake 7 років тому

    umm, Sportage SX?

  • @nightwolf883
    @nightwolf883 3 роки тому

    This is NOT a crossover, it is a 4x4 suv

  • @jayclassique5817
    @jayclassique5817 7 років тому

    Did I Hear You Correctly? You said the $23,000 base level does not include air conditioning? or was that a blooper?

    • @AAutoBuyersGuide
      @AAutoBuyersGuide  7 років тому

      Correct. Base models do not get air conditioning, you have to add the "Cold Weather Group" on the Sport trim to get it.

    • @jayclassique5817
      @jayclassique5817 7 років тому +1

      Wow. The Jeep really went basic with that level...lol

  • @kn7gez
    @kn7gez 7 років тому +3

    Brand new TrailHawk with failed starter was glad to see 2010 Tacoma rescue him. Jeep unreliable

    • @kamryw927
      @kamryw927 4 роки тому

      say that to my 260,000 mile Liberty with original trans, engine and t-case. Jeeps are the most reliable SUV's made

  • @nishitraj.
    @nishitraj. 7 років тому

    Compass looks better

  • @rogerb7147
    @rogerb7147 7 років тому

    That sagging beltline just doesn't fit an SUV. Add on the rather strange front end and the styling is a 2 out of 10. How did FCA do this when they have decent looks on their other crossovers?

    • @wiibaron
      @wiibaron 7 років тому

      I have grown to actually love the front styling. I totally agree on the beltline sag though, I always thought it was odd. And if they would lower the taillights down about 2 inches the rear would look better...

    • @rogerb7147
      @rogerb7147 7 років тому

      Ok, I'll pull back on the front end critique, it's grown on me somewhat. Doesn't fit in with the Grand Cherokee but carries the name. However "mea culpa" on my criticism of it.

  • @tarassu
    @tarassu 7 років тому

    Random awesome landslide at 20:20 :D
    Should have buried that Fuglyness for good. Without Alex of course :D

  • @ejs93033
    @ejs93033 7 років тому

    Unique car. 4500 towing. Natural v6.... But if it had RWD and a normal transmission it would be a rockstar.

  • @bl7193
    @bl7193 7 років тому +1

    Had a 2014, sold it last yr b/c its poor reliability especially transmission..

  • @josegutierrez1063
    @josegutierrez1063 3 роки тому

    they do not mechatalk about the engine or the transmsson,I do not care what luxury s made if it fails mechanically

  • @wesleyhyun
    @wesleyhyun 7 років тому +4

    These are annoying to look at on the road during night with their 6 lights on.

  • @BikeFitterErik
    @BikeFitterErik 7 років тому

    I'm surprised at the mpg, most vehicles are past their numbers.

    • @watchreport
      @watchreport 7 років тому

      Erik Sturzebecher that's because most are 4 cylinder, not 6, and are not as heavy.

  • @jmsmith4
    @jmsmith4 7 років тому +1

    Head lights are ugly

  • @tspidey007
    @tspidey007 7 років тому +1

    The front end styling is hideous.

    • @valdius85
      @valdius85 5 років тому

      They should make it a small Grand Ch. styling. I love that one. VW and Audi are doing exactly that and no one complains

  • @jannis2072
    @jannis2072 7 років тому

    This vehicle looks like shit but it still love it

  • @hank22
    @hank22 7 років тому +1

    Ugliest headlamps

  • @NaNslx
    @NaNslx 7 років тому

    This particular Jeep model sucks.
    Tried driving one on several occasions, always had similar issues, never disappointed in that. ;)

  • @notsoserious0944
    @notsoserious0944 7 років тому

    An unattractive visage. Or really ugly. I wonder at the decision to add mobility when the entire front fascia is literally a glass chin? Even the slightest bump to the front and we are talking thousands of bux to repair.

  • @Cyberpunk2056
    @Cyberpunk2056 7 років тому

    its still a piece of Crap

  • @phuot1
    @phuot1 7 років тому +1

    Another great proffesionnal review Alex. The front design suck! Reliability suck!Transmission suck! The 2.4 suck.The 3.2 is a good engine. I'll pass.

  • @ast5515
    @ast5515 7 років тому

    This transmission is cancer. Driving around at 40 mph, the engine revs 1100-1200 RPM. That's a hell of a way to kill an engine.

    • @NaNslx
      @NaNslx 7 років тому

      I put it in cruise control, once it got in to 3k rpm, it would not come down. Had to keep on pulling to side of road to restart the stupid thing. Poor design IMO.

    • @ast5515
      @ast5515 7 років тому

      Gotta love FCA group. I wish Alfa Romeo was independent. I know they just don't have the money, but I think they could create some killer cars.

  • @srtxxx4661
    @srtxxx4661 7 років тому +1

    needs a serious front and rear refresh , very stale looking , I hear it's getting refreshed in 2018 , skip 4cyl it SUCKS!!

    • @sergeyyevtukh388
      @sergeyyevtukh388 7 років тому

      Mark Mustacci that what is exactly coming in the ,18 model in US , total disappointment from FCA, in EU they will have 3 or 4 different engines :-/

    • @srtxxx4661
      @srtxxx4661 7 років тому

      pdgable agree !

    • @pdgable
      @pdgable 7 років тому

      Unfortunately, I have a two wheel drive version which doesn't have a smart mode....

  • @naveeds786
    @naveeds786 7 років тому +3

    I just got out of a leased 2014 Cherokee, Pros: Good overall package, functional and straight-forward interior, Uconnect, comfortable seats, spacious feeling interior with lots of places to put your things, Cons: 4-cylinder engine (opt for the v6), 9-speed transmission is not good (had mine replaced under warranty, but it was still jerky), steering arms groaned constantly (dealer fixed it short term, but noises came back again), poor service experience, Takeaway: opt for the v-6, lease, don't buy as it seems like the car aged quickly, and find a friendly dealer/service dept

    • @trebors386
      @trebors386 7 років тому

      You should add, lease don't buy as many will trade theirs in within couple of years...lease will prevent the awful resale value

  • @anironboot
    @anironboot 7 років тому +1

    Best reviews on the net. Thank you.

  • @powtmow
    @powtmow 7 років тому +1

    Great review

  • @coureurdebois
    @coureurdebois 7 років тому +42

    Cheap interior, worst in class reliability, and an ugly design. No thanks.

    • @weedmastersr
      @weedmastersr 7 років тому +15

      Best interior, best design, best in off-road. Yes please!

    • @marinoint
      @marinoint 7 років тому +10

      Cherokee do have poor reliability rating and ugly front end.

    • @NaNslx
      @NaNslx 7 років тому

      There's no award money can't buy.
      LOL

    • @mmalave71
      @mmalave71 7 років тому

      Justin Bouche Umm...the Overland is gorgeous and hardly cheap. Drive one and it feels solid and super quiet.

    • @mmalave71
      @mmalave71 7 років тому

      Shin Ken That's because people actually take them out of the city and use them off road.

  • @justabrokeredneck
    @justabrokeredneck Рік тому

    no ac on the base model??? what in the hell