Exploring A Bunch of Retro Programming Tools (Mailcall #1)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 кві 2021
- Since starting this channel, I've received some donations, some very generous viewers have made donations to the channel, including a full set of Borland C++ 2.0 floppy disks, the Borland Brief text editor, a literal copy of DESQView, and a sealed in box copy of Visual C# 2003. I've been figuring out how to do a mailcall properly, so here's my first attempt at doing so.
My socials:
Patreon: / ncommander
Twitter: / fossfirefighter
Discord: / discord
Blog: casadevall.pro
Borland Brief is a full screen text editor which was very popular in the late 80s and early 90s as a macro based system. While I know that Brief was indeed sold as an independent package, I don't know if it was included in Borland C++ of this era.
As for Borland C++, this version is for both DOS and Windows. Interestingly, its from 1991, and targets Windows 3.0, and not the much more common 3.1. As a result of it's early status, it doesn't include the famous Borland OWL (Object Windows Library), and while there's a specific version of Turbo Debugger for Windows, it obviously doesn't work off Windows 95.
DESQView on other hand was one of the earlist, and most popular multitasking environments for DOS, and competed with Windows and DR-DOS in this area. Made by the world famous Quarterdeck Software, DESQView became less and less relevant as Quarterdeck lost ground to Windows, and eventually disappeared. I'd love to find a copy of DESQView/X and explore full X11 capability under DOS.
Finally, rounding out the set is a boxed copy of Visual C# 2003. Here we talk a bit about Microsoft's .NET environment, the broader Visual Studio .NET, and how this version was a significant departure from the "classic" Studio versions of the past, and how it was the start of the Shell environment that followed.
After compiling some Hello World programs, we took the board for a quick spin to modern Windows 10 to see if we have working backwards compatibility:
Interesting Timestamps:
Music provided under license by Epidemic Sound (www.epidemicsound.com/) with the following tracks in order:
#vintagecomputing #retrodevelopment #borland #mailcall #desqview - Наука та технологія
So, one slight mistake, the donation was sent in by Fnord666 (three 6s)I apparently wrote it wrong in the script. I'll give a formal apology here in the next video since they gave their blessing to publish this with the mistake.
Still, my bad!.
Those roman emperors with their lots of sixes.
When debugging graphical programs, it was very helpful to have both a monochrome and colour video card; that way we could run the debugger on the monochrome display while the program performed graphics on the colour display. This was possible because MDA/MGA/HGC used a different memory address than CGA/EGA/VGA.
It's actually technically possible to use three displays, as the MDA, CGA, and Professional Graphics Controller could run on multiple machines. You're indeed correct about MDA/color, but I don't think you can realistically touch that address space while Windows is running, especially if its in 286 or 386 mode. I do know it can be done for DOS.
I'm old enough to have done it for real on Windows 3.1. This option was supported by Turbo Debugger and it was more convenient than having the display switching between VGA and text mode. I had an old Hercules ISA card attached to a small monitor.
What was the purpose of Monochrome/Color? Just a visual reminder see which was the one being debugged? Or something else?
If visual, I understand the intention. I have to RDP into a few different systems constantly, and I have trouble determining which I'm in at times. It's happened often enough that I purposefully set up the Taskbar in a way that I dislike, just to serve as a visual queue that this is such-and-such, instead of my actual workstation. Changing the wallpaper has also helped slightly, but so many programs feel better maximized that I barely ever end up seeing the wallpaper!
@@Sawta We are talking having a dedicated second screen for debugging in the early 90s before it was possible. You couldn't get 2 VGA cards on a ISA bus.
@@Sawta In the context mentioned here, the purpose was to have the debugger display without competing with the program being debugged. This could be particularly important if what you're working on is the graphics driver itself (particularly novel modes like VGA mode X), and no software exists to capture or simulate the state of the display system. As a side note, not all display cards are graphics cards; the IBM MDA only supported text mode, so it didn't need enough RAM for a frame buffer. Another reason to choose monochrome was a higher resolution sharper image possibly at a lower price; colour monitors require non-overlapping coloured phosphor, triple electron guns, and colour masks. But as mentioned by me and Laurent, the core reason for this use is that two cards of the same type would collide. Multiple outputs of the same type wasn't really a thing before Matrox Millenium G400, and multiple cards of the same type with Voodoo 2 SLI (which couldn't do system display, so didn't require the purpose specific addresses).
The Borland development tools (especially Turbo Pascal 6 and later Borland Delphi and Borland C++) were a large part of where I got my start in programming.
That Visual Studio was what I first learned to code in professionally. ☺️ I remember loving it. 😅
++
I had a software company back in the 80s and 90s and wrote a lot of stuff in QuickBasic 4.5 and Microsoft Professional Development System 7.1
@@hojo70 I'm on the eye for actual QuickBasic vs. QBASIC. I've used PDS and PWB, since its what you need for vintage OS/2 development. it actually shows up briefly in my Word OS/2 video
Same, Visual Studio 1.5 in 1994
I know a lot of other UA-camrs probably get too many donations to do this, but making an episodeto fully going into the donations is a _really_ nice thing to see - as well as a great thing to watch :D
especially as it is edited, narrated and has some research put into it.
So 15 minutes of video is multiple days works. (not full time concentrated days, but still an involved process)
Other youtubers just get out the knife, cut open boxes, comment and move on. (making a 1 hour video in a day from P.O. Box visit to upload doable)
I would really love to see more development tools on your channel. I also collect and play around with old development tools all the time, and it's great to see someone that enjoys it as well. Keep up the amazing work!
Agree.
Including full subtitles is an instant sub. Thank you.
Accessibility is important. I've honestly looked at how best to subtitle my livestreams, but there's no good way it seems unless I spend days/weeks editing through the transcript.
I first started programming in 1977... what shocks me is how I could forget brief!
I love your work mate. Honestly keep being you
Thanks, these videos are a lot of effort, but these comments make it worth it.
Love seeing these old IDEs - I first started programming in the early 2010's, so these are tools I've never seen used before. Learning about old dev environments is exactly the kind of hyper specific niche only possible on UA-cam haha. Think I might track down a copy of VS 2003 myself, or perhaps an old iso since MS no longer sells it, and tinker with it too, or perhaps VS 6.0 (I think it was 6.0?) for Win9x. I've used Win9x a fair amount as an end user, but come to think of it, I know next to nothing on how 9x programs were actually written or the quirks for developing for it...
Memories :)
My grandfather got me started with Turbo Pascal on a 286 after he first taught me BASIC on a C64.
This is one of my new favorite channels. I like that you explain things as you go in a detailed and entertaining way.
Oh wow yea, I remember that prereq disc from the early vs .net installations. When I was in Uni i attended the Microsoft launch presentation of Visual Studio 2010 in Second Life (yep, you read that correctly). At the end of it they took people's addresses and shipped everyone a version of VS2010 proffesional edition; which ofcourse was great for me since up to then I was only legally able to use the super limited Express edition. By then the prereq "disc" was part of the same dvd and just another installer that it ran first.
Loved Brief. Used it a lot in my early dev days even wrote a number of extensions for the dev team to help with Clipper code formatting
I love your videos! Got them recommended to me randomly, and seeing things not work or retro pseudo-nostalgic things iro pseudo-nostalgic thing
God that visual studio box/installer takes me back. I was obsessed with learning different languages/fucking around with them despite being only 12-ish at the time of release but I begged my dad to get it for me and he surprised me one day with it after he came home from work. good times
My uncle had DESQview X on his Redhat install in the mid-90s. He dual-booted, and I would play games on Linux as well as Windows.
that was an epic dose of nostalgia. thanks man
Wow we had that poster in school. Since we were programing in C#.
Those big posters are generally put on the wall of the office, not in classrooms. This was a time before StackOverflow, and sometimes these posters were actually used to quickly look up i.e. relations between components
I remember upgrading from 98SE to Win2k back in ~2001 after buying a copy with my Elementary Graduation money (always a nerd). I sat on 2k for ages tbh, I tried XP on other machines and felt it was more or less just a skin on top of Win2k. There were changes, updates, etc, but for a kid that used their Windows computer mainly for the web and games it wasn't really a huge change. I did program, but most of the time that was on my old Apple IIGS Woz Edition loaded with expansion cards, accelerator, 3.5 and 5.25 disk drives, and crisp display I got as a give a few years prior. I learned how to program Assembly, C, and Basic on that machine. I had Assembly, VB6, VB.Net, Java, C#, and C/C++ tools on my main machine too but still sat mostly with ASM and C...I still stick almost entirely with ASM and C >.>.
my goodness, i feel so old, i've been programming c# from the very early days
I miss Borland C++ 6 and Delphi. I think Total Commander and FastStone Image Viewer are still written in these.
Borland Turbo C student edition set me on a path to a 25+ year career
As a C# dev who uses vs 2017 it's interesing seeing the old vs version
I learned C with Borland. It was a great product.
When I see that Visual Studio .Net is considered vintage, makes me realize how old I am. I never really thought about Visual Studio .Net is approaching 20 years old. I remember object based application development being the new big thing.
Borland Turbo C, which was the ancestor of their later C++ products, is a wonderful bit of software. I still run it on an original IBM 5150 for coding MIDI applications!
I never had the pleasure unfortunately. I tend to use OpenWatcom these days because I like my C to be ANSI, but I admit that I might have a search alert set for Turbo Pascal as I'm very partial to Pascal family languages.
@@NCommander The version of Turbo C that I use is ANSI C (1989), Borland were really good about standards conformance.
Oooh.. J++, that would be a fun vid!
Works by accident? lol This is one of the major reasons large entities use Windows, backwards compatibility. Also a major factor in Linux kernel space, you don't break userspace.
Brief was my favorite editor.
I've heard a lot of people swear by it. I can easily see why.
Love that thumbnail and the video quality, where do you get the thumbnail inspiration?
I actually commissioned the thumbnails from one of my viewers, Framebuffer, who has done them for my last few projects.
I'm very intrigued in this box set of Visual C# dev tool, I'd like to get a link to this copy, I've got a pentium4m laptop runs Win2k Professional SP4, I do wanna try it out, see if I could use it to rewrite a fairly modern app. Thks in advance!
I am especially curious how they did graphics on the NES and Atari 2600. That gotta be before the advent of image editors.
Prototypes were done on graph paper and the graphics were either typed in as their palette codes, or a graphics program was used. The Atari 2600 likely would've been entirely the former method, whereas the NES could have gone either way depending on how detailed the graphics were.
13:41 Ahhh that's the stuff!
Found the Visual Basic programmer :)
@@NCommander indeed :) Good times, good memories... love your content btw so keep rockin’ 🤘
I'm probably dating myself but I used to run RBBS with DoubleDOS back in the day. Desqview was considered a pretty major improvement over DoubleDOS but both were considered marvels of the day since you could continue to use the computer and perform administration in a background window while users utilized the BBS in the primary window.
Never heard of DoubleDOS; I knew of TopView, but that sounds like one I need to add to the list. Part of me wonders if anyone built BBS software that ran on Windows 1.x for its multitasking support but I suspect Windows was too RAM hungry ...
Yup. I ran fidoBBS using DESQView for quite a while for that same reason.
Another multitasking option for DOS was Vmix.
Would be cool to see you do Watcom VX-REXX on OS/2.
Second that. Wasn't VX-REXX even one of those IDE's that integrated with the Workplace Shell instead of re-implementing the whole desktop like modern IDE's do?
I'd love to see videos about what working with those was like.
Amazing Stuff i now wanna dable with too.
Great video...more..more...more :-)
I've got some more retro programming stuff in the pipe. I'm working on the Compaq Portable Part II view next, and then I have something I've teased coming beyond that. I may also have a few short things in the middle, but the next week might be a bit rough.
I bought the SNA Server training kit for $1. Don't even know what it is. 😁
Interesting, first time I heard of Borland BRIEF. I used Nortons Commanders builtin editor back then, there you saw in the last line what F key had one function.
In my area Borland C++ was not very popular, unlke Borland Pascal, which was the absolute standard. Many game developers used Watcom C++ back then I heard. (I myself started with C++ only in Windows times much later, on DOS I only used Borland Pascal).
Funny you bring up Norton Commander ...
*looks at future Mailcall items ...*
@@NCommander The Norton Commander is the one tool I use till today, in a cloned but faaaaaar more advanced form, but still in text mode: The FAR Manager. :) It makes my work soooo much easier every single day.
@@Lofote Midnight Commander is an open source clone, not sure if it left Linux though.
@@UltimatePerfection I know MC, but I like the WIndows integration of FAR muuuuch better :)... (FAR Manager is open source as well by the way)
Yeah I was programing in Visual studio 2003 back in high school in 2014!! Kinda sad to see in school with direct contract with Microsoft.
I did Borland c++ way back when
Rafiki: it is time.
When I first studied programming, 2005 we where using Borland C, and worked fine. Version 3 sort of comes to my mind, but the UI was the exact same, so might have been 2?. We where using Windows 2000, so not only works on 9x, but seems to work on the NT kernel too! and that was a time where XP was unable to properly run DOS games. Also, 2005 was when I first heard about .NET, described as "An easy C". As I dropped out and rejoined my studies after 15 years, now we don't have C, but we do C#. I don't feel it to be like C, but weirdly reminds me of a less fun version of Pascal.
Well, all 32-bit versions of NT has *some* DOS support, but was a bit limited. There wasn't any soundblaster emulation (added in XP), and some DOS extenders just didn't work due to qurks in NT's DPMI interface. Fixing these were big milestones for XP.
@@NCommander Yep, SP2, isn't it? Actually I remember that I switched to Linux when I was unable to get sound on windows XP for my DOS games. It also felt super slow compared with 98se.. Duke Nukem 3D comes first! I heard that after the second service pack it was better, but I never went back to Windows, as I was happy with DosEmu.
.NET probably reminds you of Delphi because Anders Hejlsberg played a huge role in developing both: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Hejlsberg I too made that leap from VCL to .NET 😎👍
I'm not sure how I feel about an IDE I used not too long ago being called retro... :p
Windows 2000 was my favorite
I have a couple shelves full of 80s and 90s desktop publishing software for Mac. I don't have any use for it, but I can't stand to throw them away. Does anyone know a good place to donate it? Anyone want it?
Drop me an email. I am interested in it.
They still use Borland C++ in India for teaching to this day.
Seriously?
That's a pre-standard ANSI C++ compiler. Why wouldn't they use GCC or clang?
@@NCommander I don't know why they do it. They run it in dosbox.
borland top
Turbo Pascal
Basic pds 7.1
I like the content but the music I feel takes the attention away from the awesomeness.
Sample Text
... did I accidently screw up a title card?
@@NCommander nah fam
@@Kai-io6jn I'll leave you a Sample Comment then ...
Fun story .NET an C#is the reason why now Visual Studio is a pile of shit over a pile of shit.