This trope needs to be thrown into the garbage. Its one thing to be angry at being kept from a secret, but the moment the writers decide to delve further by making the character be unreasonably selfish or ignorant over the issue, its about the same level of the end of the world as modding mini amogus as healthkits in Left4Dead.
In a lot of these modern shows, there is always that one moment in it where it really feels like the entire show was made just so they could have this one scene. Whether it be to address something, stir controversy or whatever other drama bait, you can tell that the writers would just toss the rest of the story in the garbage would it not be for this one scene.
It is easy interpersonal conflict for the story. All it requires is for a person to have a secret identity/life, have someone they are close to find out and have them take it the worst possible way. It doesn't matter if the execution is bad, or that the trope itself is a sign of bad writing, just so long as there is story conflict that comes from it. That seems to be the mindset with this particular trope.
When it gets into that baby tantrum territory, I just want the superhero to show them some souvenir gun or foot long monster claw they got from a past fight and say "You got about ten of these waiting for you at home if word gets out, and a million waiting for me". Maybe you don't want the risk or heartbreak of associating with a superhero, completely valid, but to just pour gasoline on the situation including on yourself is unlikeable.
This discussion kinda reminds me of Road Trip from Danny Phantom, where the secret identities conflict was actually handled pretty well (and honestly how the show handle secret identities in general) In the episode, everyone finds out Danny’s identity, and his parents are initially upset that he didn’t tell them, but then his sister, Jazz, bluntly calls out why he wouldn’t have felt comfortable telling them. They’re ghost hunters, they always talk about wanting to destroy/dissect ghosts, of course he’d be nervous. And at the end, when he reverses everyone’s memories so they don’t remember his identity, it still makes sense. Yes, his parents said they weren’t upset about his identity, but Danny knows that they’ll be in danger if they know (heck, the whole reason they got kidnapped in the episode is because they were important to Danny), and he probably wants the freedom to tell them the truth when he feels ready. There’s a bunch more examples of them handling this idea well, like how Jazz, despite knowing Danny’s identity very early in the series, never tells anyone, even Danny himself, because she wanted to let him tell her himself. But at this point I’m rambling, so I’ll stop before this becomes a whole essay😅
There's also the fact that Jazz doesn't give Danny grief whenever he has to leave to fight ghosts, because she knows that he's risking himself to help other and she's proud of him for that.
I saw that episode too, though mostly the third part, and I can definitely agree on a lot of those facts. Danny had the right to tell his family when he was ready and throughout the series until the finale, he was probably going to be afraid to tell them no matter what they would say. The only exception was, as you said, Jazz because she had figured it out and basically decided to keep his secret, letting him tell her when he was ready. Both of those instances really makes you feel proud of Danny for protecting his family and friends when they were in danger. 🙂
Plus, there's Miles Morales. In Into the Spiderverse, his dad hated Spiderman for... (I don't know, doing the cops' jobs better?) And in Across the Spiderverse, they had an argument and you can tell how frustrating it is for Miles to not tell his own parents "I'm Spiderman."
Josh is 100% on the money here. I hate that a lot of modern shows are going this route when it comes to secret identity exposure. They need to take some lessons from Batman Beyond when it comes to that stuff. Terry's friends eventually figured it out and joined him as help with stuff that Bruce couldn't do from the mansion, or better yet, if they still want to be mad about it, have them pull away to figure out their emotions before coming back a few episodes later.
a good chunk of Batman shows do that like with Batgirl, starts out as her own, helps Batman, then Batman makes her an official member and team up, but in his case, that's the Bat Family for yea
The problem is with these modern shows is that they treat the hero like they're the only problem because they lied and that no matter how they're significant other acts, the hero will always be in the wrong. They ignore all nuance and the complexity of the situation and boil it down to this ridiculous scenario and expect us to accept it. Lois IS being a hypocrite but her past tellss you why she's like this. The show just need to double down and call out her behavior as wrong so that when Clark and her reconcile, it's that much more meaningful. They both made mistakes but accept that, forgive each other and move on wiser, stronger and with a clean slate. Amber...is worse once you realize all the implications of her actions. She leads Mark on, she rakes him over the coals, humiliates him and acts like she's entitled to all his secrets. They've been dating for what? Weeks? Months? What, is Mark gonna hand over his social security and banks accounts too? Is she entitled to that? I don't see a ring on her finger! Also, she never shows any concern for his well being despite the fact he's risking his life. The writers have depicted one of the most blatantly toxic relationships I've ever seen, made worse that in the original comic, all this drama with Amber never happened! They added that in! Teela...is just selfish. As you said.
Lois's past is an explanation, not an excuse. The fact that she also got mad at Jimmy for not telling her that he knew Clark was Superman is also telling. Also, they've yet to truly "reconcile". As far as I've seen, they've yet to have an actual talk about this and admit their fault in this situation (sure, Clark's is minimal, but Josh is right that he made a promise he couldn't keep). I agree with everything else, especially with Teela. Like not even the KING knew that Adam was He-Man. And when HE got mad that his WIFE, the Queen, kept that his SON was He-Man from him, the show had HIM apologize to the Queen in the end.
@@ULTIMATZEKROM I wasn't trying to say that as an excuse. I was pointing out how Lois' character and her actions are at least something that the audience can understand, even if it's wrong. People, relationships, emotions and situations are messy and there's nothing wrong with portraying that. There feels like there's an actual foundation to work with here with the potential for the characters to feel like actual people. Now, it's up to show to build off of that and show proper resolution. Which is more than I can say for Amber or Teela, whose positions were written to be so obtuse that, we the audience, can't help but look at them as examples of utterly selfish and toxic people.
@@TresBS1 True, though that only works if the show DOES build off that and show a proper resolution. So far it doesn't seem like the show is going to do that.
@TresBS1 Here's the thing with Amber... the writers tried to have their cake and eat it too with her. They wanted to make a point about how keeping secrets and living a double life doesn't excuse being a bad partner, which, on paper, it makes sense. But they also wanted Amber to be smart enough to be able to figure out that Mark is Invincible. And all that accomplished was making Amber know he's a superhero and instead of talking to him like a normal person, she instead manipulates him by going along with the lie and expecting him to put her over his work. Either one of these plotpoints sound fine on their own, but combine them, and things get messy.
I give Lois some credit because when talking it out to justify herself she realized she was being selfish and in the wrong. She’s such a good journalist she’ll even hold herself accountable
I think the problem with lois is how fast "my adventures with superman" has been with getting to the reveal, lois might... MIGHT have had a point if it was season 3 of the show and alot of time has passed, but because they want to get to the reveal done quickly, it doesn't give them enough time to justify why clark should trust lois. and by doing that they make the situation worse. At most lois has known clark for a month, and she expects him to tell her a big secret like that, espically when she has point blank stated she intends to expose him? CLark was completely in the right to keep his secret from someone he BARELY knows
That's one of the shows major issues. The pacing is completely screwed up. You'll have 3 episodes where Clark is just goofing off with Lois and Jimmy, and then the next practically drops a major bombshell that would have hit harder if the relationships had more time to be established. At least with the Invincible fiasco, despite it still being horribly written, you can sorta reason with Amber being deeply hurt since both her and Mark were dating for a good while. Clark and Lois at that point weren't on that level, yet Lois is taking it like she was deceived by a longtime childhood friend instead of a new co-worker she found kinda cute.
@@OmegaRay100 And even WORSE is that Lois got mad at Jimmy because he figured it out before her and didn't tell her, as if it was Jimmy's secret to tell.
A pretty healthy one at that considering he was on the bad end of a toxic one with a former co-host of his older streams. It was platonic but hoo boi. Won't name names but older fans during Josh's MLP Days will know who I am talking about.
Kind of feeling like people are forgetting the whole point of secret identities. Look at what the Green Goblin did in the first Spider-Man movie after he found out who Spider-Man was. Revealing a superhero's identity not only puts them but everyone they know and care about in danger so yeah it's going to take awhile for Clark to feel comfortable to share that secret with anyone, longer than they've known each in the show which if I remember right was a few weeks a few months?
Exactly. Man could you imagine if you were a hero and your identity got outed? Criminals wouldn't even have to go after friends and family. They could just make you a pariah by targeting everything else. Your favorite pizza place? Firebomb it, cuz you like to go there. You help out at a charity? Harass and jump the other workers. You live in a certain neighborhood? Do a drive-by just at random. Villains and criminals could just make it so that by simply associating with you is a hazard to public health, turning the public, the media against you. It wouldn't be that hard.
For superman it's more than that. I don't know how the show treat the public reaction to Superman, but he is usually adored by the public almost to the point of being worshipped. If people knew that he was Clark Kent, he would not be able to be Clark anymore. Superman needs the normality and anonymity of his life as Clark inorder to understand what it's like to be human, and a Superman who forgot what it's like to be a human is a truly terrifying notion.
Josh, you should do a top ten list of moments where the superhero’s secret identity is revealed to their loved ones. You know, to help cleanse the soul from all these horrible moments.
In Superman II, Lois tried a similar method to get Clark to reveal his powers by pulling a gun on him, causing him to shrug off the bullet like it was nothing... only Lois revealed she shot a blank at him in order to psyche him out. Lois was pretty sure her hunch about Clark was right, but she wasn't stupid enough to actually endanger Clark in case she ended up being wrong. Granted, this Lois also tried something similar to the building jump, but at least she realized how stupid she was, and used that knowledge to come up with the gun plan.
In reality yeah she would endangered Clark in that scene if she was wrong. Blanks at close can be just as dangerous as a real bullet particularly if the barrel isn’t completely clean. That is how Brendan Lee died.
My read of Lois Lane in this series is that she hates secrets. She had to live her entire childhood under a father who kept everything a secret from her, including her mother's illness. That life drove Lois to want to be a reporter, to destroy secrets and expose the truth. She still lies to do it, but she probably sees lies as a tool to expose the greater truth. Also, I get the sense that Clark and Jimmy are her first friends in a long time. Probably her closest friends ever. And she also fell for Clark pretty fast. But then every time a disaster happens, Clark vanishes. She doesn't know if he's safe. She doesn't even know if he's alive. The show has made sure to linger on her terrified reactions as she searches for Clark. Learning that your friend knew how scared you were and kept up the charade... yeah, I can understand Lois being pissed in that moment.
@ZX-Gear This Lois has zero chill. It makes sense to her and only her. I believe such a thing is called a "Character Flaw", as the kids say these days.
@@ZX-GearI know, right? It's almost like she was written to be a person with flaws, and not some fucking paradigm of humanity like people masturbate to the Kents being.
@@zuulmeister8409 Yeah it makes sense. And they DID resolve it. Sadly the story is pretty rushed given modern shows are allergic to seasons that last more than 10 episodes.
The case with Invincible is especially annoying because it was handled fine in the original comic. In there, Amber noticed something weird was going on, but rather than being a jerk, she gets worried, though her initial response was assuming he was a drug dealer. Eventually, she started to suspect he was a superhero and thought it was cool when Mark revealed his identity. Spoilers for the comic; Later the comic shows that being in a relationship superhero as a boyfriend kinda sucks because Amber spends days wondering whether or not Mark is going to come home alive. She is tempted to cheat on him in the moments when she wonders if he is alive or not, but she never does. Mark sees the pain Amber is going through and breaks up with her, feeling she deserves better and will be happier if she is with someone else. The one time we see Amber again, she is happier. Yes, as you can probably guess from the show, Amber is just a temporary love interest before Mark hooks up with Eve. She is the Gwen Stacy to Eve's Mary Jane, only she doesn't die.
@@magmos6346honestly they could ingnore it entirely or for the sake of drama the make it a HUGE issue which it is make not mistake but by huge issue i mean exagerated the whole incident and fallout after.and given how the handled the amber situation yea im not holding my breath for any proper handling of adapting this.
It will never make sense to me why these characters get mad that a friend or partner hid the fact that they are a superhero They be acting like they were cheating or blowing off time with them to spend it with the boys, when in reality they’re out there saving lives, and getting beat, rocked and jumped in the process. They are constantly putting their life on the line to protect their home, loved ones, and your way of life, to almost no benefit to themselves. Yeah they kept a secret from,but said secret it liable to put you in harms way, and then they gotta have that on their conscience Thanks for coming to my tedtalk😂
Like, if it was a thing where Lois thought he was cheating or using underhanded tactics to advance at the Daily Planet, and she ended up discovering his identity, but like Jimmy left him until he was ready, that'd be a good idea, and it fits with Lois' character l
Supposedly (based off of what summaries I've read from fans of the comics - I myself haven't read them in full), Mary Jane Watson from the comics became incredibly beloved as a love-interest for Spider-Man for being a well-nuanced subversion of this secret identity drama thing that happened incredibly accidentally. Originally, she was written as a carefree party girl to contrast characters like Betty Brant or Gwen Stacy, but later she was given backstory where she knew Peter was Spider-Man all along - supposedly it was originally meant to explain why she couldn't really get with Peter because she knew the secret and wasn't sure she could handle it, but in practice it was one of many factors that made MJ incredibly appealing for readers because she knew about Peter all along and weird bits she did (e.g. ferrying Peter to a supervillain appearance because she "thought it would be fun", being incredibly magnanimous when Peter had to blow off dates with her cause she was the type to date around, stuff like that) became more her being accommodating to Peter as a person and accepting both sides of his life. In other words, she did a MAwS Jimmy before it was cool. Compare that to *literally every other well-known love interest in Peter's life at the time*, who generally had issues with and didn't like one side of Peter (Betty and Gwen had issues with Spider-Man as I understood it due to family, and Black Cat didn't care for Peter Parker cause she was more a thrill-seeker into Spider-Man - although all of them cared for Peter/Spidey in their own ways), that made Mary Jane a standout in general. Which of course was why the marriage was super loved as well, and why basically everyone hated Peter and MJ being split up by *deal with the devil* of all things.
The problem with Amber and Lois is they didn't consider that these superheroes have enemies with super powers that would harm their love ones. Unless either of them have powers of their own to defend themselves Superman and Invincible have every right to keep their identities a secret plus there's no guarantee that they would keep their secret to themselves.
Yeah, whenever I see somone rant about how secret identeties are dumb I just wanna screem at them. Somone heroes dont need it. Iron Man, dosnt realy need it, the only one they could hurt is Pepper and she is wary secure withing stark industrys buildings. Also she would be a target anyway cause even if poeple dont know hes Iron Man, they probably can easeley guess who build the armor. Cap and Thor also dont need secret identeties. Spiderman?....He fucking NEEDS a secret identety! If everyone knew who he was? HA! I give Aunt May a week at most before she gets attacked.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 And that's exactly what happened after Spider-Man took off his mask in front of the cameras in Civil War. Kingpin had an assassin kill Aunt May...and this lead to the events of One More Day...
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Yup. The one where Peter gives up his marriage with Mary Jane so Mephisto would save Aunt May's life. It was incredibly stupid and reviewed as such. And it all started when Peter unmasked himself to the world. When he gave up his secret identity to show support for Tony Stark's side of the conflict.
This trope can really only work if the relationship has progressed long enough to the point where keeping the secret identity from the partner's really starting to become a detriment to their relationship so when the partner finally finds out on their own their anger can be justified. A similar thing was done in the final episodes of, all things, Word girl where Word Girl's secret identity was starting to become a detriment to her friendship with Violet and it ultimately causes her to break off their friendship once Violet finds out her identity which sh had every reason to be upset about due to her being Becky/Word Girl's best friend so to not be in the loop broke Violet's trust in her.
another example of this is insomniacs spiderman where aunt may tells peter that shes known all along despite him not telling her and she kept it a secret but she didnt overreact given the situation because she told him that she was so proud of him where as with mj it was obvious that she figured it out pre-game and was still kind of bitter about it but was still willing to help him and throughout the game it showed that they were able to mend their relationship if he just let her help him, and miles i imagine he was dumbfounded that peter was spiderman but still obviously looked up to him and kept it a secret
"Why didn't you tell me you were Invincible?" "Because nobody can keep a secret. My Dad's going to be in Mortal Kombat 1, but it was leaked out a couple of days before it was announced. Like, no one is able to keep a secret for even a day in this world, and one day, you're going to be yelling at me in public and blow my cover because you get too emotionally charged over such things! ... Also, I deal with villains who will rip people apart in alphabetical order and are as vindictive as Yandere-Chan, you think I'm going to confess to this anytime soon?"
At least the show tells us later that this was mostly derived from a fear that their relationship was potentially just a cover, combined with some general trust issues. Doesn’t exactly justify her reaction entirely but I’m praying the show addresses that.
They kinda do, but at the same time they don't. It's more like both characters say "it is what it is" and then make up, and I mean _really_ make up for it in episode 7.
Spider man 1 movie have a perfect reason and explanation why hero need secret identity. To qoute Green Goblin: "You never know when some nutcase will come along and force an impossible choice for the hero."
Lois's point is smaller than the Atom can shrink compared to the consequences for Clark and his loved ones if the wrong person learned he was Superman.
@@ULTIMATZEKROMYeah, how dare the person he's in a relationship with be mad he hid his secret identity. You know, that thing he keeps so villains won't find out and hurt his loved ones...like Lois, who ahs no idea and thus, unlike the Kents, can do absolutely nothing to be more careful to prevent it.
Lois been around long before Amber even existed of course her situation is different from Amber also Amber and mark are both kids while Lois and Clark are adults a bad comparison
While I do think the way Lois reacted to Clark’s identity was a bit unfair, especially when she basically forced it out of him by putting herself in danger when he tried to deny it, at the very least it gets revolved very quickly. What makes the Amber stuff so egregious though is that it serves as the main crux of their relationship drama. Which is fine to a degree, since they’re both dumb teenagers who do dumb things, and Mark isn’t blameless either due to being a brand new superhero and still not fully coming to grips with what that life entails. The main issue is that the writers tried to have their cake and eat it too by trying to subvert the trope by making it so Amber actually knew all along…despite the fact that Amber blows up at Mark for abandoning them to fight the cyborg. So if she knew his secret identity, why would she get angry for him leaving…if she *knew* he was risking his life fighting the cyborg???? If she knew all along, then she should have confronted Mark about it instead of getting angry at him for things she’s already aware about, instead of just stringing him along and act like she’s owed knowing an important part of his life just because they’re dating. Like, I don’t outright hate Amber and can see what the showrunners were going for, but ended up largely fumbling the execution. And so she’s the weakest aspect of a genuinely well-written show, and I can only hope they don’t land in the same pitfalls with season 2.
I mean, Lois has been purposely throwing herself off roofs for decades. It's her go-to move. It's pretty tame, too. In the Superman 2 movie she revealed Clark's identity by shooting him.
@@zuulmeister8409The difference is that those were often played off as a joke, often at her own expense, and weren't suppose to be taken seriously. Like in Superman 2, she jokes about "killing" Clark with a blank because she's not crazy enough to actually risk shooting Clark if she was wrong. The scene in MAWS is leading into a serious, emotional conflict that feels manufactured because Clark and Lois's relationship haven't developed enough to warrant this much agency so soon. It feels like that did it because they felt that there wasn't enough drama going on.
When I saw the scene where Lois learned Clark Kent and Superman are the same person and had a fit for not telling the truth, I too pointed out how Lois was being a hypocrite. Several people pointed out that Clark was also in the wrong for not telling Lois the truth, and while I did partially agreed with what they said, I countered that argument by pointing out how and why they lied. Clark lied to protect people. If the world knew he was Superman his enemies would go after him and everyone he cared about. Plus, there were plenty of moments where he tried to reveal his identity to Lois, only for Lois to do something that makes him question on whether or not he should reveal his secret. Lois lied to get what she wanted. Tricking other people into doing or thinking one thing, when in actuality she was just using them as expendables to hit the big leagues. And not only that, but both Clark and Lois had different mentions on how they discovered the lie. Clark acted much more calmly with a strong sense of disappointment. And it was made even worst considering that the lie had almost gotten them killed. Lois exploded with anger that Clark lied to her, despite the fact that she had multiple moments where it was clear that revealing the truth to her would be difficult.
Amber was the worst part of Invincible for me, I saw people compare her favourably to graphic novel Amber by saying the latter was "boring", but I'd rather have boring than horribly unlikeable and treated as being in the right despite that.
There is a ultimate spider man episode where Peter thinks of what will happen if he revealed his identity to the world and has a imagination skit where everyone laughts at him for begin a wimpy person, and aunt may and Mary jane get mad at him because now the villains also know and can track him down either be his house or when in public. It is a good depiction of why the secret identity works, because it helps to keep both lives separately.
What made me made the most was that louis's reason for hating being lied to was literally just daddy issues Makes me glad that her and clark made up in the next episode and its no longer an issue between them
It soured my mood in wanting to actually watch the show. And no. After so many other shows people told me not to watch and for good reason,I don't care about context cause most diehard defenders don't either.
@beyondthebat1184 No. They do suck. Look at video games in the AAA sphere and you can tell there is a huge fall off not including the predatory practices of nickel and diming customers.
2:27 When she said that, I was thinking “So what if Superman was anyone else?” and “Why should he tell you this considering you haven’t known each other for that long?”
It's like the writers have forgotten the point of secret identity and the consequences that can come from revealing it also stupid how 2 of the examples haven't known each other for that long
I remember there being a video on UA-cam about one of Spider-Man's best relationships being from one of the alternate universes where he was with a mutant from Professor X's school and the relationship worked out pretty great since she figured it out pretty quickly, was very understanding about how he had to sometimes put off time to spend with her to do his heroing, and overall loved him because of the way he was rather than getting pissy about his hero work and such. I wonder why we haven't seen relationships like that around in modern media. Also, why is Marvel's Avengers marked as the game Josh played when it was clearly Final Fantasy XVI?
Ironically much later after the who Lois fiasco.. there is an episode with the mulitverse (YES MULTIVERSE!) where the "LEAGUE OF LOIS'S" is shown and guess what this universe Lois finds out? "I am THE WORST LOIS ever!" To the point that later during a battle, both Superman and Lois apoligse to eachother. But mostly... Lois finds out what she was getting herself into.. Just the fact she could SELF REFLECT was what we needed to see.
The Council of Ricks and a show made for and by alleged Reddit Sex Pests and its consequences have been a disaster to adult animation. Do NOT get me started with the reoccurring incest plotlines of the latest season.
Ok that's it! I get that people are getting tired of Multiverse stories but to say it has done damage to media is a VAST understatement. This has been a thing since the 1930s when the flash of two worlds comic was made. It's the same argument with Time Travel or Fantasy Epics of the 80s. Multiverse stories are becoming mainstream, that's just the result of being used frequently. I get you guys are tired but as someone who is writing a Multiverse Epic, that arguement is a little naive.
@@hotspotcinema234 That is the problem with becoming mainstream. It gets dumbed down to where every jackoff thinks they can write something similar without having to stand out. Just look at anime with Isekais.
@@ZX-Gear That's where the writers/creatives have to be creative to stand out. Especially in comics. Just because something is mainstream doesn't mean it's bad. The only way for the multiverse to thrive better is to either make a point about our society, see all the routes we could've taken and even see who we would become under different circumstances. And that's just the tip of the iceburg. Multiverse stories need air to breathe and some of yall are just not ready for that conversation.
@hotspotcinema234 No. At this point,whenever something goes mainstream or rather tries to appeal to a wider audience or what we once called the Lowest Common Denominator,that is when shit goes bad. Sometimes certain concepts should be niche as I am sure most fans of classic sci-fi hate the many Reddit Tier Rick and Morty fans shitting up discourse.
I love (read: hate) how the moment there's relationships with the main hero, writers tend to forget that there are so many valid reasons a secret identity to warrant keeping one secret/lie. Even on a baseline Batman vs Mafia level of conflict, if anyone knew Bruce Wayne was Batman, there could be an organized smash-and-grab raid/arson attack on Wayne Manor, possibly putting Alfred's life in danger depending on how badass his backstory is. Not even mentioning the things a vigilante would suddenly be legally liable for, despite this culture that's split on whether or not police (the people that are supposed to be qualified to handle these things) should be trusted with blanket waived liability, let alone The Good Guy With A Gun™, or in this case cool gadgets or superpowers. Some people would be afraid and demand he be locked up, some people would be begging him to help more, it's a ton of subjective fallout that could easily catch relatives and acquaintances. Wayne Enterprises as a business and employer for at least hundreds of jobs would be in TURMOIL because the heir was beating up crooks with questionable legality. The Daily Planet as a news organization would have their credibility shot when it turns out every Superman story they published was written by Clark's girlfriend, a horrible violation of journalistic standards, and Lois would be made into a perfect scapegoat to avoid responsibility, likely never getting a news job ever again. Yes, you can do a Marvel and open up the biases, and then any villain with intelligence and political acumen, say Lex Luthor, could well and easily leverage that against the heroes. All of that justification, and we haven't even touched the supervillains. The likes of Rhino, Juggernaut, Bane that are basically impossible for any police and sometimes even military unit to defeat blow-for-blow, ready and willing to do whatever they can to make sure the one guy that CAN stop them won't be an issue, all while the superhero can only be in one place at a time. Not even bringing up the borderline demigod villains like Poison Ivy or Doomsday that already have no quarrels with collateral damage.
In some shows there can be other consequences to the secret being revealed. Remember FOP and what will happen if anyone learns that Timmy has fairy godparents?
I think my problem with these secret identity drama plots is that it always comes off as if the Loises of the relationships are entitled to know up front. People should reveal personal information about themselves when they’re comfortable and trust the other person in the relationship. Obviously the other factors should be taken into consideration such as the feelings of the other person, how the relationship is developing, and how reasonable is it to keep a secret. I would have the reverse issue if we saw a show where Lois and Clark were married for ten years and it made Lois to be the unreasonable one for being upset that Clark hadn’t told her this secret.
What makes a lot of these characters worse about not being told about the identities is the fact that they don't realize that if anyone knew...specifically a villain...they ALSO would be a target. Lois and the others could easily be targeted by villains wanting leverage or revenge. As such, keeping the identities a secret was more to keep THEM safe than the heroes. As much as JJ Jameson wanted to know Spiderman's identity, how would he react when he realizes the villains would target HIM if everyone knew Peter Parker worked for him? Heck...just look at No Way Home for an example of this!
JJ is actually a prime example of the exact opposite kind of reaction but in the same "I can't believe you" strain: He starts becoming Peter's more trusted second hand, helping get him to a medical professional when he learns he got shot, suiting up in his Anti-Spider-Man suit to help DEFEND Spider-Man... He's still just as shocked as everyone else given at "You've been lying to me about your other self the whole time" but its in the vein of "And you've been fighting deranged psychopaths and criminals while you're STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL? Good god, kid, I gotta help you."
@@cgkase6210 Yes...and I loved that! Here's the guy thinking Spiderman is a criminal all this time...and when he learns the truth he has an "Oh my God..." moment and becomes a better person. Heck...his obsession over Spiderman caused him to delve into self-destructive behavior that nearly tanked his career...and then he learns the truth and has an epiphany. I love good character development like that! HOW THE HELL DID MODERN MARVEL FORGET THAT?!?
To be fair with Lois that was her gut reaction to finding out Clark was Superman. I think it makes sense she isn't going to be completely rational about it. In the next episode it's even point out that the reason Lois was so upset about it was that she was afraid the Clark she was getting to know and love was nothing more than a cover up for Superman which I think is fair fear. I don't even think they were saying Lois was in the right. To me it felt like they both made a mistake, but I could still agree they should have had the 2 apologize.
Even in The New 52 she's a jerkass, when she found out Clark was Superman, she still wrote an article about that after a villain exposed him. When tied with the lasso of truth, the reason she gave on why she wrote the article, practically confirming what the villain exposed, was because it was a story, which earns her a deserved haymaker from Lana Lang.
Well New 52 wasn't the best time for the Superman mythos. Rebirth was definitely a breath of fresh air at the time because they were doing everything in their power to make people hate Lois.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Yeah, Superman was kind of a hothead in this and then there is Jim Gordon and his mech suit, the "Bat Bunny" all i have to say is goddanmit Barry!
This type of situation has been happening in way more shows as of recent, and I suspect that there's gonna be a show in the future (near or far from now) that will have this exact same thing happen, but the one who gets called out is the person who's being "lied" to. I'm both looking forward to it and _not_ looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it because it'll be really satisfying to watch a character like Amber or Lois or Teela get taken down a peg after what feels like _years_ of them getting away with being toxic under the guise of "___ lied to me first". I'm _not_ looking forward to it because it'll eventually be used in way more shows and eventually become just as obnoxious (and maybe even just as nonsensical) as this current trend. That's how the figurative pendulum works, unfortunately.
I think this is happening because the writers themselves seemed frustrated with the "dishonesty" and it never being addressed in the original shows. On paper, the discussion around secret identities seems like a good way to help a reboot of a superhero media stand out. But it has to be executed right.
I would like to point out that they had a chance to redeem Amber in Invincible if she apologized to Mark for what she said but no she doesn't do that instead she gets back together with him, reveals that she knows his father is Omni-man and says the most atrocious line, "guess I wasn't the only one being lied to."
This is actually an amazing point I have thought about when it comes to knowing hero’s identity. In the past, shows with heroes either keep their secret well or have just one or few people to trust with their identity. Recently though with newer superhero shows, we see a bigger group let alone probably a whole town knowing a hero’s identity, which is very dangerous. An example is Ducktales, on Fenton/ GizmoDuck. In old series it was only Scrooge and his mother who were able to keep Fenton’s identity as a secret. In the new series, it was like every appearance Fenton makes the Duck family little by little knew his secret till the end where practically the main cast was well aware. This should not be a bad thing because it just means more inclusion. However it felt like a joke on how bad Fenton kept a secret, and how many knew it just felt like it wasn’t exciting or important.
Short version:read civil war and see how revealing your identity helps Honestly the secret identity thing helps more than hurts. If lois lane was wrong shed be dead remember that and remember this. SHE DOES THIS IN MANY OF HER VERSIONS. No joke she falls off of buildings all the time. Now she's being shady for the alternative universe supermans who btw aren't him(she met her self and still has doubts on being different from other universe versions) Still better than tv show amber by a mile
I would highly recommend people read Daredevil's Born Again storyline to highlight the dangers of superheroes blindly trusting a loved one with their identities.
So this isn't exactly the same, but I want to talk to about Young Justice because the theme of keeping secrets is very prominent in that show. In the penultimate episode of Season 1, Superboy, Miss Martian, and Artemis (who are all suspected of being moles) reveal the actual secrets that they've been keeping from the Team. Not only is it extremely cathartic to see the heroes being able to trust each other and getting things like that off their chest, but it wonderfully contrasts how a lot of the villains are mostly in it for themselves and are willing to abandon their so called "allies" because that alliance is more born out of convenience and self-interest than anything. As a bonus, the person who was actually the mole was specifically instructed to target suspicions on Superboy, Miss Martian, and Artemis to exasperate the Team's mistrust in each other.
There's a reason that the episode where Lois force's him to reveal his identity to her is (at least according to Comic Book Resources) a lot of people's least favorite episode of what is otherwise a pretty good Superman show.
I'll give credit where credit is due, at least My Adventures with Superman doesn't portray Lois as in the right during that argument. Was her reaction over-the-top and drastic, absolutely, but given how her character has been developed to this point, it was understandable. Given her backstory and how she was raised, I can also understand why she lies in those moments. Whether we want to admit it or not, or if we're aware of it or not, the people who raise us mold us into who we are. I would appreciate it it that comes up later on in the show, which given how things are progressing and who I think the general is going to be revealed to be, is a likely possibility. I also would like to point out that Lois has been pulling stunts like that since her creation in the comics. It's not new for her character to put herself in danger so that Superman can save her. In fact, that scene from My Adventures with Superman mirrors a scene from Superman II, the Christopher Reeves movie, where Lois figures it out, confronts Clark, who denies it, and then jumps out a window stating, "You wouldn't let me die Superman." It's almost point for point in how both are executed, and yet no one complained when that Lois did it, at least to my knowledge. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
It has been years since I last saw Superman II, but didn't Lois go over a railing at Niagara Falls instead of out a window, or am I thinking of another scene?
@@jordanhunter3375 That is a different scene that the one I was referring to. I believe the Niagara Falls scene happens first and the window scene happens in the middle of the movie.
4:30 I brought this up in one of my videos, you put it better here. We need to come to a general agreement in the superhero watching community what the general timeframe is for a superhero telling their secret identity to a significant other. Somewhere on the sliding scale of it being nuts to tell anyone after 1 month of dating, to being downright evil not to tell them after 2 years of marriage. Something like a 6 month mark of dating where the superhero either tells the other person, or breaks up with them.
Why is it that the Spiderman movie girlfriends are the most understanding characters? In the Tobey Maguire movies Mary Jane was upset but understood that Peter couldn’t ignore when people were in danger and in the Andrew Garfield movies Gwen actively assisted in the events. Only people with some screws loose in their heads would “TEST” their relationship or just jump off the top of a god dam skyscraper to force a confession of something.
You are right in that lois is wrong but she is way better than Amber because at least she had a reason. She's not mad that he kept the fact that he was a superhero a secret. She's mad becase was in danger and keeping it a secret. People forget that Lois's mother died from an illness her father lied to her about. She's most certainly projecting. But I think it's cause she's afraid of getting that call.
"How dare you lie to me about your identity" "Oh excuuuuse me, ms 'i want to expose all of my secrets' half the villains i fight read minds, imagine what they would do if they knew i was your boyfriend/lover/crush,. These guys come out of an asylum to fight me"
in all honestly, jimmy's reaction was way better than lois. Clark had more reason to be wary of her even when they were noticing each other romantically. Hell, she even blurted out her intentions in front of the man (unknowingly, but still), which would make almost anyone not want to say anything if she was going to do that. She definitely deserves most of that fault, hell she should have had that thrown back in her face by jimmy or someone else because there if i was on that receiving end of that, that's it. I'm done with her nonsense. This Lois needs a serving of humble pie slammed in her face.
Happens an episode later where she compares herself with a multiverse of Lois's and finds out: "Wow.. I AM THE WORST LOIS!" She isn't told... SHE FIND IT OUT HERSELF!
There's a reason why secret identities exist. A cunning villain attacks the heart. If the villain finds out who the hero who he or she really is, the villain can take advantage of that. Spider-Man(2002) is one of the biggest examples of this. Spoilers for two movies. As soon as Norman Osborn found out who Spider-Man was, not only did he go after Aunt May, he later went after Mary Jane. And in Spider-Man 3(2007), as soon as Eddie knew Peter was Spider-Man due to the symbiote, He also targeted Mary Jane! This is why keeping your hero identity a secret is important, heck, it's very likely that is why back with MMPR, then it was one of Zordon's 3 rules to being a ranger.
I don’t really think the show painted Lois as in the right. Because the next episode they say exactly why Lois reacted that way, and say why the whole situation was due to her insecurities and faults. It wasn’t just that Clark lied to her, it’s that she feared that him lying about the identity also meant that he was lying to her about his feelings for her. Basically she got caught in her own head of fear of lies (which explains her personality and why she’s such a drive for “exposing the truth”), and I’m going to guess that probably next episode where we learn about who The General is we learn why Lois has such a trauma response to being deceived. Maybe they should have expanded more on her apologizing for getting in her own head, but I don’t think the show is just hand waving it as “yep she’s right he shoulda said it out the gate”.
You know what I don’t understand about the “can’t reveal my identity to friends/family” trope? Is that if a VILLAIN finds out the hero’s identity, the friends/family have no way of knowing or defending themselves. Telling them wouldn’t put them in danger, it would arm them with knowledge! Plus, they could help the hero come up with alibis and excuses to run off. Even if a friend/family member betrays the hero, that would still be more interesting than the “I can’t tell anyone” schlock that we’re force-fed at this point.
This trend seems to have started out because of the way people have read secret identities as not trusting others enough, but at the same time not giving the discussion enough nuance. Especially in Lois' case as she doesn't even have the excuse that the others do of how she wouldn't tell anyone else given she herself stated she absolutely would.
The one element that all three of these cases have in common and could've been used way more effectively to fix the majority of backlash, is that all three of these partners were being emotional. Their arguments were very much emotionally driven and essentially vented out their stress and trauma on their significant others. Needless to say; when you're emotional, you don't really tend to make the best decisions. Very seldom do people also own up to their outbursts even if they do realize that afterward, and instead try to justify their behaviour to preserve their egos. However, that's not how these three instances are 'portrayed', but instead as Josh points out; they're portrayed as 'being in the right' and the characters don't really own up to their mistakes (except Teela to some degree). With just some minor additional writing, could these instances have been handled way better. Instead, it really makes me wonder what sort of relationship-experience the writing teams have been through.
I have plenty of issues with Lois in this show. The more I think about, she does have flaws that would be very believable for a younger, less experienced Lois Lane. The issue I've seen is that the show seems to have this strange infatuation with her and don't want to put her in situations that would have her address those flaws. The best example is probably episode 7 where is literally surrounded by alternate variants of herself. She feels insecure because they're more accomplished than her but they also have amplified versions of her worst traits (they're extremely distrustful, condescending, impatient and unknowingly self-sabotaging) but Lois doesn’t really pick up on any of these. I think the worst thing she says about herself is that she's annoying which feels very safe in terms of acknowledging a flaw.
I remember a show from years ago that handled anger as a mask for sadness. An episode of Charmed had Piper turn into a Fury because she internalized her grief over losing her older sister, Prue. This was also a recurring flaw for Piper as she often internalized her feelings to try to remain the grounded and level headed one of the sisters. But people can't silently shoulder every burden all the time, eventually you crack. If Teela had acted like Piper did, blowing up because she couldn't handle being stoic in the face of such a painful and personal tragedy, she would have been so much more relatable.
For Amber it would not make it better if we know that Amber knew that Mark's a Superhero because that was not the only problem. The others being that the whole show is 100% on Amber side and she did nothing wrong and the fact that Amber cares more about Mark telling his secret to her then Mark himself. Because if she really care about Mark then why did she not just take him somewhere to have a one on one talk between the two of them without no one else is around or did she wanted others to know his secret too. Did Amber wanted Mark to tell her during the villain attack and the Villain finds out about Mark.
Okay. I think one, the fact that this happened 3 episodes ago, 1 episode dealing with the fallout and two others where we get to move on, colors my opinion on this, but they didn't show Lois is in the right. They show that she is angry and frustrated (for multiple reasons) that she went to such an extreme, and Clark makes a good point that he wasn't sure he could trust her yet as he didn't understand the powers himself. Then as I said, the next episode happens where the two of them have to work together to save Jimmy from whatever weird mess he had gotten himself in (who also has one of my favorite reveals ever). Then, by the end of it, the three of them make up, and establish what's going to be the new normal from now on. Again I know this is from hindsight, and Josh is talking from the perspective who likely only saw the episode up to that point, but again, I don't see the show ever saying she was in the right. I see it as the show trying to do a Liar Reveal trope, which is rarely ever done well, and just try to push past the drama that creates to establish the status quo the show's premise is on. It also definitely handled the subject much better then Invincible did. Edit: Also the Liar Reveal isn't a new trope. It's existed for a long long time. It even has been a constant trope in Superhero comics, including Superman, since nearly the point of needing a secret identity was something that was decided on. The fact that two shows recently have decided to use it recently doesn't really make it new. And yeah, the trope itself isn't well liked in the first place, because the whole point is to create drama that is only going to get resolved by the end one way or another.
I just realized something. Replace "secret identity reveal" with "coming out" and it becomes a dozen times worse. I know it's not at all the intention but ever since Across the Spider-verse, the idea of secret identity reveals as coming out metaphors makes too much sense. And the idea of Jimmy being enough of a bro to just wait for Clark to say he's Superman adds to that.
Damn. I doubt that is the subtext they went with secret identities but it made Lois look like a bigot by proxie. Which is rich considering her literal fatherless behavior.
So El Tigre was added to Paramount+ recently, so I’ve had a chance to rewatch it since I haven’t seen it in years. You want to know something funny. When it comes to the main character Manny, the show mostly avoids the secret identity trope, except for when his mom Maria is introduced. They use the twist of Maria knowing his secret identity, but she doesn’t hold it against him, since she knows Manny and his dad Rodolfo fight super villains on a regular basis and keep the city safe. Keep in mind, she divorced Rodolfo because the thought of him putting his life on the line to fight evil, gave her panic attacks, and made her constantly hyperventilate. She still put that aside and let Manny keep fighting for the greater good
A long time ago as kid I wrote a story were the love interest find the hero identity and she gets mad ,and get transformed into a monster the hero says to her do you know how many people I have fought with mind reading powers ? A hero and a villain usually are thinking in wining the fight so the villain can read that deep without leaving themselves open but a civilian that the hero is. Always saving that’s different,this new trend made think about that, Louis scream at the four winds once already and some defend this saying” yeah because there is only one Clark on metrópolis”um well there is only one Clark in Louis life imagine some super smart villain like lex Lutor listened to her and was like “hmm ,this woman knows that super man is someone named Clark let’s check her social media and see how many Clark’s she knows ,only one ,well that was easy”
You know what? I’d say some modern screen writers who do stuff like this with Lois should probably watch and even read on how to make a secret identity reveal important. I’d always use two Ben 10 episodes as examples (one being from AF and the other from UA). The first one showing the hero’s identity being revealed by his family and trying to prove that he’s grown to protect everyone from threats like the high breed. Meanwhile in UA, there’s an episode where it shows the downside of being revealed to the world about being a hero and that’s the fact any villain can target them. Just that fact alone is enough ti make you think of the dangers to your identity being revealed. Unlike how Lois did in this series by just doing a suicidal attempt just to bait Clark and make him reveal his identity. Jimmy was in the right to remain silent until Clark was comfortable to talk about it.
...did it paint her as being in the right? Very much not what I took away from it. Honestly I feel like it's been building towards her realising how wrong she is and the harm she's done to Clark
To paraphrase Green Arrow from the Identity Crisis omnibus: "You wear the mask to protect your friends and loved ones." Also, Lois was way to eager for her first big break to even consider the ramifications her actions would have on others. She needed a stern talking to and to reflect on her massive hypocrisy. Sadly, we rushed past any chance of that. As of the finale, we know where she learned to be so judgmental and bullheaded. Aside, you're getting enough rest being a new papa and all.
So earlier this year, Hamster & Gretel ALSO did this kinda trope, but between BFFs rather than lovers. Following the ending of "My Invisible Friend", Bailey finds out in "The Bitter Sitter" that her best friend Gretel is the same person as the superhero Gretel she idolizes. While there was a moment that shows Bailey being super excited about the revelation, she's pissed at Gretel when the latter still attempts to damage-control the whole thing (as Gretel promised her brother Kevin to tell no one - including Bailey - that she and her pet Hamster have received superpowers from aliens; so naturally Gretel is in full panic mode). In addition to Bailey having enough of Gretel keeping ditching her in "My Invisible Friend" for this reason, Bailey comes to the conclusion that Gretel doesn't trust her enough to tell her anything and decides to no longer talk to her until she got her feelings sorted out (this continues even when Gretel and Bailey get babysat for the majority of the episode, as Bailey finds a loophole by using Hamster as a middleman). By the end of the episode, Bailey realizes on her own why Gretel kept this secret from her, and admits that no longer talking to Gretel was one of the most difficult things she has ever done, as the two make up. Personally, I thought this was better done than most of the examples discussed in this stream clip. Both Bailey and Gretel's sides and actions were understandable, Bailey wasn't purposefully "testing" Gretel to reveal her superpowers to her (and although Gretel had to reveal her superpowers to Bailey because a spotlight was nearly dropping onto her in "My Invisible Friend", Bailey had never purposefully put herself into danger either), both girls regretted what they have done, and made up before the episode was over. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a "this is how this trope is done RIGHT" kind of episode, but I didn't think it was awfully done, either.
In this day in age where someone could steal your whole entire identity. Nobody should be critiquing superheroes for keep a secret identity. I blame the MCU for painting the false impression that a superhero can just outright reveal themselves and recieve zero repercussions. It would seem that these recent scenarios are written by people with zero concepts of what trust really is. They have no standards of what trust is which interesting how loose of a trust being broken is to them. Would more than likely be the ones telling people business all over the place. And will still claim to be a good/best friend. At worse they are the type carry a vindictive attitude do being lied to in the past and airing that vindictiveness onto the page.
I think Hamster and Gretel also did the secret identity reveal except it happened between best friends instead of significant others. Sure, the discoverer was angry initially, but the two of them make up and reaffirm their friendship by the end of the episode. Also, they were 6.
@DrawciaGleam02 Oh, I suppose it did. Perry not being able to talk might have complicated things a bit, but everyone was pretty understanding after the situation was spelled out.
There's a big difference between liying and keeping a secret. A lie is purposefully _giving_ *misinformation.* Keeping a secret is purposefully _withholding_ information. That's not to say that secret keeping can't be hurtful. It's the intention behind the action that matters. Lies are always done with the intention of hurting someone or something else. Secret keeping can go either way.
I'll admit that the way that episode portrayed Lois really did rub me the wrong way. It's understandable why Superman has to keep his identity a secret but the way they forced it out is what ruined the character for some. If anything Avatar did the whole keeping a secret trope better in the episode "Bato of the Water Tribe". Not only did they present the conflict of Aang keeping the map to Sokka and Katara's father a secret and the fallout well enough, but you can understand why each party reacted the way they did. Sokka was mad at Aang cause he never got to see his father after the war with the Fire Nation began and Aang was afraid of losing the ones he could call his family and them abandoning him. As much as Aang wrong for doing that Sokka was much at fault for his reaction and after talking with Bato it gave him time to reflect on why his father left the water tribe and then coming to his senses. Both sides were treated equally at fault for the conflict and didn't favor one over the other.
I miss the good ol’ days where it’s like “oh, you were keeping your superhero identity a secret because if anyone happened to overhear this conversation they could spread the secret like the plague-“ **catches breath** “-and it could end up going to a powerful villain that could use this knowledge to capture me and use me as a hostage to have you follow their commands or they would off me? That makes sense. Thanks for trusting me enough anyways!” Instead it’s now “WAAAAH! I HATE SECWETS! YOU KNOW I HATE SECWETS! YOU MUST NOT LOVE ME OR TWUST ME FOW KEEPING THIS FROM MEEE! WAAAAH!😭”
then the joker says: hey kido even i keep my arch nesses batmans secrit idnty under warps as much as I can! this is becue if im not batmans foil then i lose all motvation and get realy very sad clown issues. so lous toots you ealy need to learn theres conquesice with how you do things. heck if i can try to keep batmans serct identy a secet out for my and batmans convance sakes. then you lous might need to do the same for the super man. this is becuse if you can't keep giong on with your life bescue of spilling the beans far too soon and acting like your entileted to it. also you hevent even got to the pont of when you earned entogh trust and repect then its giong to give you alot of bad days in the long term just being a poor sport. it be darn too soon of the punch line yet in the show fokes.
I have one Josh and other Commenters, what about men who knows a girl likes him, but doesn’t confess it outright, due to either having low confidence, or has a broken heart many times and so on, but rather than just confessing, the guy boosts the girls confidence hanging out with her, having her achieve great things that couldn’t be possible, going out playing at the arcade and once her confidence is restored she’ll be able to confess to him first Is that anyway a bad thing to do?
I agree one hundred percent agree. Lois kinda I don’t know…THREATENED SUPERMAN IDENTITY AND IN TURN HER LIVELIHOOD! Buuuut, she truly is as blind as bat compared to Amber. She has one exit from her blame sooo…baby steps
Largely, I agree with you about what you said. One thing this clip didn't really cover is the part where Lois coerces by threatening self-deletion by jumping off the building, and still frames herself as justified. At least when they did that in Superman 2, they called Lois out on her doing that.
I think...My Adventures With Superman handles it pretty well. Not perfectly, but well enough. I mean, yeah her reaction was over the top, but I don't think the show presented Lois as in the right. Every time Lois and Clark get into an argument in this show Clark tends to shoot back instantly with everything SHE did wrong as well, like the lying thing in episode 1. I very easily sided with Clark here, especially after he said "You already know I'm Superman, what more do you want?!". And furthermore, in Episode 6 Jimmy reacts how one should normally react if they already knew: "It's your secret, you have a right to tell me when you feel comfortable doing it", but then again I haven't seen Episode 7 yet so my opinion might change. On the other hand, Invincible handled this very poorly. I got in a heated discussion about this a couple years back (I disengaged because the dude told me I only have a problem with Amber because I "don't understand women" which is thoroughly idiotic and sexist, women aren't selfish manipulators lmfao), about how Amber's scene was terribly written. Not only did she not communicate her problem to Mark over the course of I believe weeks, broke up with him without actually breaking up with him and then everyone treating Mark like he's the one in the wrong for not suddenly being a DC martian and reading her mind. Then she makes her earlier freakout about the cyborg thing look STUPID or manipulative by either A) having a genuine reaction despite the fact that she KNEW he was Invincible for the fight and could have DIED or B) having a fake reaction in order to goad/trick him into confessing a big secret 4 months into the relationship, which I shouldn't have to explain how wrong that is. And the worst, worst things she's done are comparing him basically going to war for no reward whatsoever to a fucking soup kitchen and the "I guess we were both lied to" shit. Like are you serious? Joking about his trauma and comparing it to what he already feels guilty about? What a terrible girlfriend. And her acting like she had a right to know a massive secret after only 4 months of dating. Edit: DUDE THE TEELA SHIT. Made me turn off the show immediately. Never turned it back on again. Like why would you rant abut Adam lying to you in front of his GRIEVING PARENTS IMMEDIATELY PROCEEDING HIS DEATH? What is your problem?!
The secret identity trope tends to make it way to easy for a show to create false drama between characters and that’s why I’m not fond of it. It’s a trope that needs really good writers execute because it’s way to easy to screw up otherwise.
Still haven't seen My Adventures with Superman and yet I agree with this discussion that Josh just addressed. (Btw is this show really as good as people say?)
If you don’t hate anime and gaming influences and want a fairly lighthearted, fun, and funny take on Superman, highly recommend it. It’s one of the best Clarks we’ve had in a while and the main trio is adorkably great.
Oh believe me, you NEED to see the context behind what the reactionaries are saying. Especially how Lois and Clark's relationship is handled in episode 6 and, good lawd the coffe implications in episode 7...😳
I feel like these modern writers forget that the whole point with a secret identity is to protect the people close to them. Like Superman may have superpowers, but Martha and Jonathan Kent do not, neither do Lois or Jimmy. Same with Invincible and his mom. And I think the best case of this Spider-Man with Aunt May and Mary-Jane. Because there is so many comics out there that when Spider-Man's identity gets leaked, his loved ones are in instant danger. Aunt May has gotten shot by a hitman after the Civil War event. Mary-Jane and their kid have been taken hostage by Venom. Just to name a few examples.
I’m not much of a comic book guy, but I am somebody that tries to understand relationships. Which is why I think a certain episode of the CW Supergirl handled this kind of concept adequately. That version of Supergirl and that version of Mr. Mxy were discussing how Kara and Lena Luthor (sister to Lex Luthor) where to go about their “friendship“ with Lena, having recently found out and being distraught. Mxy showed Kara some alternate realities where Kara told Lena earlier, but in someway they all ended badly. I forgot what happened later in that season in the relationship, but I do remember that eventually they get back on good terms. So the lesson that I take from it is that sometimes when it comes to big secret reveals, sometimes people just need a little more time when it relationships are complex.
I also want to add that the show didn't address Lois's ultimatum to Clark and the argument that followed well. The way she forced him to spill his secret was actually harmful. Imagine you have a secret that you hid because you are afraid of becoming an outcast if people found out, and someone threatens to kill herself, or will stop being your friend, or "if you don't tell me then you don't really love", that is toxic and harmful. And the show treats it as no big deal.
True Clark shouldn't lie to Lois but if he is Superman and he has a superhero identity as people find out that Lois Lane is sleeping what's Superman every single bad guy and every single person that hates Superman will attack Lois Lane put a bomb inside of her heart and her unborn baby heart and then you have injustice this is the same situation that I had with Spider-Man
Okay seriously, Why is this stupid trope becoming more normalized? News flash story writers, this trope is one of the WORST ways to create Drama in Superhero media!
Yep. Even Arkham Knight, a game I enjoyed did this with Gordon stopped trusting Batman after finding out Barbara is Oracle. The comics had already established that Gordon knew from day one that Barbara was Batgirl. Though even that game he has a better point than here because Batman’s connection to Barbara is the reason she was kidnapped which he actually mentions.
@@emberfist8347That's not as bad as the TNBA Episode Over The Edge, in a dream sequnce where Gordon finds out Batgirl is his daughter, jumps to the conclusion that Batman murdered her and hires Bane to capture him and is shocked when Bane betrays him and tries to kill Batman instead. I know that was all a dream but Seriously? That Episode is Overrated in my eyes.
@@eamonndeane587 Well you forget the part where Barbara was killed in front of him. And the point is that the real Gordon wouldn’t act like that as the ending heavily implies he knew all along Barbara was Batgirl something the comics confirmed was the case.
Link to the stream this was from!
ua-cam.com/video/rNVzGVF-JK8/v-deo.html
So yeah, what do you all think about this new trope?
Hey Josh, ever heard of a animated TV show called Unicorn Warriors Eternal? Its from the same creator of Samurai Jack and Primal.
This trope needs to be thrown into the garbage. Its one thing to be angry at being kept from a secret, but the moment the writers decide to delve further by making the character be unreasonably selfish or ignorant over the issue, its about the same level of the end of the world as modding mini amogus as healthkits in Left4Dead.
In a lot of these modern shows, there is always that one moment in it where it really feels like the entire show was made just so they could have this one scene. Whether it be to address something, stir controversy or whatever other drama bait, you can tell that the writers would just toss the rest of the story in the garbage would it not be for this one scene.
It is easy interpersonal conflict for the story. All it requires is for a person to have a secret identity/life, have someone they are close to find out and have them take it the worst possible way. It doesn't matter if the execution is bad, or that the trope itself is a sign of bad writing, just so long as there is story conflict that comes from it. That seems to be the mindset with this particular trope.
When it gets into that baby tantrum territory, I just want the superhero to show them some souvenir gun or foot long monster claw they got from a past fight and say "You got about ten of these waiting for you at home if word gets out, and a million waiting for me". Maybe you don't want the risk or heartbreak of associating with a superhero, completely valid, but to just pour gasoline on the situation including on yourself is unlikeable.
This discussion kinda reminds me of Road Trip from Danny Phantom, where the secret identities conflict was actually handled pretty well (and honestly how the show handle secret identities in general)
In the episode, everyone finds out Danny’s identity, and his parents are initially upset that he didn’t tell them, but then his sister, Jazz, bluntly calls out why he wouldn’t have felt comfortable telling them. They’re ghost hunters, they always talk about wanting to destroy/dissect ghosts, of course he’d be nervous. And at the end, when he reverses everyone’s memories so they don’t remember his identity, it still makes sense. Yes, his parents said they weren’t upset about his identity, but Danny knows that they’ll be in danger if they know (heck, the whole reason they got kidnapped in the episode is because they were important to Danny), and he probably wants the freedom to tell them the truth when he feels ready.
There’s a bunch more examples of them handling this idea well, like how Jazz, despite knowing Danny’s identity very early in the series, never tells anyone, even Danny himself, because she wanted to let him tell her himself. But at this point I’m rambling, so I’ll stop before this becomes a whole essay😅
Good words!
There's also the fact that Jazz doesn't give Danny grief whenever he has to leave to fight ghosts, because she knows that he's risking himself to help other and she's proud of him for that.
I saw that episode too, though mostly the third part, and I can definitely agree on a lot of those facts. Danny had the right to tell his family when he was ready and throughout the series until the finale, he was probably going to be afraid to tell them no matter what they would say. The only exception was, as you said, Jazz because she had figured it out and basically decided to keep his secret, letting him tell her when he was ready. Both of those instances really makes you feel proud of Danny for protecting his family and friends when they were in danger. 🙂
@beckydeitz4084 That is why Jimmy Olsen in this new series is an OG.
Plus, there's Miles Morales. In Into the Spiderverse, his dad hated Spiderman for... (I don't know, doing the cops' jobs better?) And in Across the Spiderverse, they had an argument and you can tell how frustrating it is for Miles to not tell his own parents "I'm Spiderman."
Josh is 100% on the money here. I hate that a lot of modern shows are going this route when it comes to secret identity exposure. They need to take some lessons from Batman Beyond when it comes to that stuff. Terry's friends eventually figured it out and joined him as help with stuff that Bruce couldn't do from the mansion, or better yet, if they still want to be mad about it, have them pull away to figure out their emotions before coming back a few episodes later.
Max is an awesome Oracle. She is also voiced by Cree Summer.
Agreed
a good chunk of Batman shows do that like with Batgirl, starts out as her own, helps Batman, then Batman makes her an official member and team up, but in his case, that's the Bat Family for yea
The problem is with these modern shows is that they treat the hero like they're the only problem because they lied and that no matter how they're significant other acts, the hero will always be in the wrong. They ignore all nuance and the complexity of the situation and boil it down to this ridiculous scenario and expect us to accept it.
Lois IS being a hypocrite but her past tellss you why she's like this. The show just need to double down and call out her behavior as wrong so that when Clark and her reconcile, it's that much more meaningful. They both made mistakes but accept that, forgive each other and move on wiser, stronger and with a clean slate.
Amber...is worse once you realize all the implications of her actions. She leads Mark on, she rakes him over the coals, humiliates him and acts like she's entitled to all his secrets. They've been dating for what? Weeks? Months? What, is Mark gonna hand over his social security and banks accounts too? Is she entitled to that? I don't see a ring on her finger! Also, she never shows any concern for his well being despite the fact he's risking his life. The writers have depicted one of the most blatantly toxic relationships I've ever seen, made worse that in the original comic, all this drama with Amber never happened! They added that in!
Teela...is just selfish. As you said.
Lois's past is an explanation, not an excuse. The fact that she also got mad at Jimmy for not telling her that he knew Clark was Superman is also telling. Also, they've yet to truly "reconcile". As far as I've seen, they've yet to have an actual talk about this and admit their fault in this situation (sure, Clark's is minimal, but Josh is right that he made a promise he couldn't keep).
I agree with everything else, especially with Teela. Like not even the KING knew that Adam was He-Man. And when HE got mad that his WIFE, the Queen, kept that his SON was He-Man from him, the show had HIM apologize to the Queen in the end.
@@ULTIMATZEKROM I wasn't trying to say that as an excuse. I was pointing out how Lois' character and her actions are at least something that the audience can understand, even if it's wrong. People, relationships, emotions and situations are messy and there's nothing wrong with portraying that. There feels like there's an actual foundation to work with here with the potential for the characters to feel like actual people. Now, it's up to show to build off of that and show proper resolution.
Which is more than I can say for Amber or Teela, whose positions were written to be so obtuse that, we the audience, can't help but look at them as examples of utterly selfish and toxic people.
@@TresBS1 True, though that only works if the show DOES build off that and show a proper resolution. So far it doesn't seem like the show is going to do that.
@TresBS1 Here's the thing with Amber... the writers tried to have their cake and eat it too with her.
They wanted to make a point about how keeping secrets and living a double life doesn't excuse being a bad partner, which, on paper, it makes sense.
But they also wanted Amber to be smart enough to be able to figure out that Mark is Invincible.
And all that accomplished was making Amber know he's a superhero and instead of talking to him like a normal person, she instead manipulates him by going along with the lie and expecting him to put her over his work.
Either one of these plotpoints sound fine on their own, but combine them, and things get messy.
I give Lois some credit because when talking it out to justify herself she realized she was being selfish and in the wrong. She’s such a good journalist she’ll even hold herself accountable
I think the problem with lois is how fast "my adventures with superman" has been with getting to the reveal, lois might... MIGHT have had a point if it was season 3 of the show and alot of time has passed, but because they want to get to the reveal done quickly, it doesn't give them enough time to justify why clark should trust lois. and by doing that they make the situation worse. At most lois has known clark for a month, and she expects him to tell her a big secret like that, espically when she has point blank stated she intends to expose him? CLark was completely in the right to keep his secret from someone he BARELY knows
Yeah, I was surprised it was revealed so quickly but kinda glad they did it just getting that situation out of the away.
Also to make it worse, Jimmy turned out knew his secret since they were in college, but he respected Clark's decision to tell him when he was ready.
I agree this show is moving too fast
That's one of the shows major issues. The pacing is completely screwed up. You'll have 3 episodes where Clark is just goofing off with Lois and Jimmy, and then the next practically drops a major bombshell that would have hit harder if the relationships had more time to be established. At least with the Invincible fiasco, despite it still being horribly written, you can sorta reason with Amber being deeply hurt since both her and Mark were dating for a good while. Clark and Lois at that point weren't on that level, yet Lois is taking it like she was deceived by a longtime childhood friend instead of a new co-worker she found kinda cute.
@@OmegaRay100 And even WORSE is that Lois got mad at Jimmy because he figured it out before her and didn't tell her, as if it was Jimmy's secret to tell.
And before anyone tries to leverage Josh’s words, he’s a married man who loves his wife dearly
Clearly he knows a thing or two about relationships
A pretty healthy one at that considering he was on the bad end of a toxic one with a former co-host of his older streams. It was platonic but hoo boi. Won't name names but older fans during Josh's MLP Days will know who I am talking about.
@@ZX-Gear Honestly speaking as someone that was around when all that went down. It was hella toxic.
@mmstudios4538 I still remember the hypocrisy of said person over Molestia when they have wrote fics of Rainbow Dash g******* Scootaloo.
Yes a married man who’s this close to being a father 🤏
@@MrGabeanator That long? Man. I still can't believe it.
Kind of feeling like people are forgetting the whole point of secret identities. Look at what the Green Goblin did in the first Spider-Man movie after he found out who Spider-Man was. Revealing a superhero's identity not only puts them but everyone they know and care about in danger so yeah it's going to take awhile for Clark to feel comfortable to share that secret with anyone, longer than they've known each in the show which if I remember right was a few weeks a few months?
Exactly. Man could you imagine if you were a hero and your identity got outed? Criminals wouldn't even have to go after friends and family. They could just make you a pariah by targeting everything else. Your favorite pizza place? Firebomb it, cuz you like to go there. You help out at a charity? Harass and jump the other workers. You live in a certain neighborhood? Do a drive-by just at random. Villains and criminals could just make it so that by simply associating with you is a hazard to public health, turning the public, the media against you. It wouldn't be that hard.
And Mary Jane handled the reveal better despite the fact it is has been two years by the time she learns Peter is Spider-Man.
For superman it's more than that. I don't know how the show treat the public reaction to Superman, but he is usually adored by the public almost to the point of being worshipped. If people knew that he was Clark Kent, he would not be able to be Clark anymore. Superman needs the normality and anonymity of his life as Clark inorder to understand what it's like to be human, and a Superman who forgot what it's like to be a human is a truly terrifying notion.
@@LostInNumbers Except that isn’t really the case. Clark Kent the mild-manner humble person is the real Superman.
Josh, you should do a top ten list of moments where the superhero’s secret identity is revealed to their loved ones. You know, to help cleanse the soul from all these horrible moments.
In Superman II, Lois tried a similar method to get Clark to reveal his powers by pulling a gun on him, causing him to shrug off the bullet like it was nothing... only Lois revealed she shot a blank at him in order to psyche him out. Lois was pretty sure her hunch about Clark was right, but she wasn't stupid enough to actually endanger Clark in case she ended up being wrong.
Granted, this Lois also tried something similar to the building jump, but at least she realized how stupid she was, and used that knowledge to come up with the gun plan.
In reality yeah she would endangered Clark in that scene if she was wrong. Blanks at close can be just as dangerous as a real bullet particularly if the barrel isn’t completely clean. That is how Brendan Lee died.
Well in the Richard Donner Cut in the theatrical cut Superman is exposed because he trips and falls into a fireplace
My read of Lois Lane in this series is that she hates secrets. She had to live her entire childhood under a father who kept everything a secret from her, including her mother's illness. That life drove Lois to want to be a reporter, to destroy secrets and expose the truth. She still lies to do it, but she probably sees lies as a tool to expose the greater truth.
Also, I get the sense that Clark and Jimmy are her first friends in a long time. Probably her closest friends ever. And she also fell for Clark pretty fast. But then every time a disaster happens, Clark vanishes. She doesn't know if he's safe. She doesn't even know if he's alive. The show has made sure to linger on her terrified reactions as she searches for Clark. Learning that your friend knew how scared you were and kept up the charade... yeah, I can understand Lois being pissed in that moment.
Ah yes. The old It Is Okay When I Do It.
@ZX-Gear This Lois has zero chill. It makes sense to her and only her. I believe such a thing is called a "Character Flaw", as the kids say these days.
@@ZX-GearI know, right? It's almost like she was written to be a person with flaws, and not some fucking paradigm of humanity like people masturbate to the Kents being.
@@zuulmeister8409 Yeah it makes sense. And they DID resolve it. Sadly the story is pretty rushed given modern shows are allergic to seasons that last more than 10 episodes.
The case with Invincible is especially annoying because it was handled fine in the original comic. In there, Amber noticed something weird was going on, but rather than being a jerk, she gets worried, though her initial response was assuming he was a drug dealer. Eventually, she started to suspect he was a superhero and thought it was cool when Mark revealed his identity.
Spoilers for the comic;
Later the comic shows that being in a relationship superhero as a boyfriend kinda sucks because Amber spends days wondering whether or not Mark is going to come home alive. She is tempted to cheat on him in the moments when she wonders if he is alive or not, but she never does.
Mark sees the pain Amber is going through and breaks up with her, feeling she deserves better and will be happier if she is with someone else.
The one time we see Amber again, she is happier.
Yes, as you can probably guess from the show, Amber is just a temporary love interest before Mark hooks up with Eve. She is the Gwen Stacy to Eve's Mary Jane, only she doesn't die.
My question is how are the writers going to handle Mark getting word that rhymes with grape
@@vulpixle9659 Given the genders involved and the writers involved? His grapist is gonna be treated a lot more sympathetically.
@@magmos6346honestly they could ingnore it entirely or for the sake of drama the make it a HUGE issue which it is make not mistake but by huge issue i mean exagerated the whole incident and fallout after.and given how the handled the amber situation yea im not holding my breath for any proper handling of adapting this.
@@ricardoramos1059me too. Just don’t do it, less headache and keep their focus on the important things.
It will never make sense to me why these characters get mad that a friend or partner hid the fact that they are a superhero
They be acting like they were cheating or blowing off time with them to spend it with the boys, when in reality they’re out there saving lives, and getting beat, rocked and jumped in the process. They are constantly putting their life on the line to protect their home, loved ones, and your way of life, to almost no benefit to themselves.
Yeah they kept a secret from,but said secret it liable to put you in harms way, and then they gotta have that on their conscience
Thanks for coming to my tedtalk😂
Because modern Hollywood writers think they're being oh so smart useing secret identies as an allegory for keeping secrets from your partner
Like, if it was a thing where Lois thought he was cheating or using underhanded tactics to advance at the Daily Planet, and she ended up discovering his identity, but like Jimmy left him until he was ready, that'd be a good idea, and it fits with Lois' character l
Supposedly (based off of what summaries I've read from fans of the comics - I myself haven't read them in full), Mary Jane Watson from the comics became incredibly beloved as a love-interest for Spider-Man for being a well-nuanced subversion of this secret identity drama thing that happened incredibly accidentally.
Originally, she was written as a carefree party girl to contrast characters like Betty Brant or Gwen Stacy, but later she was given backstory where she knew Peter was Spider-Man all along - supposedly it was originally meant to explain why she couldn't really get with Peter because she knew the secret and wasn't sure she could handle it, but in practice it was one of many factors that made MJ incredibly appealing for readers because she knew about Peter all along and weird bits she did (e.g. ferrying Peter to a supervillain appearance because she "thought it would be fun", being incredibly magnanimous when Peter had to blow off dates with her cause she was the type to date around, stuff like that) became more her being accommodating to Peter as a person and accepting both sides of his life. In other words, she did a MAwS Jimmy before it was cool.
Compare that to *literally every other well-known love interest in Peter's life at the time*, who generally had issues with and didn't like one side of Peter (Betty and Gwen had issues with Spider-Man as I understood it due to family, and Black Cat didn't care for Peter Parker cause she was more a thrill-seeker into Spider-Man - although all of them cared for Peter/Spidey in their own ways), that made Mary Jane a standout in general. Which of course was why the marriage was super loved as well, and why basically everyone hated Peter and MJ being split up by *deal with the devil* of all things.
The problem with Amber and Lois is they didn't consider that these superheroes have enemies with super powers that would harm their love ones. Unless either of them have powers of their own to defend themselves Superman and Invincible have every right to keep their identities a secret plus there's no guarantee that they would keep their secret to themselves.
Yeah, whenever I see somone rant about how secret identeties are dumb I just wanna screem at them. Somone heroes dont need it. Iron Man, dosnt realy need it, the only one they could hurt is Pepper and she is wary secure withing stark industrys buildings. Also she would be a target anyway cause even if poeple dont know hes Iron Man, they probably can easeley guess who build the armor. Cap and Thor also dont need secret identeties. Spiderman?....He fucking NEEDS a secret identety! If everyone knew who he was? HA! I give Aunt May a week at most before she gets attacked.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 And that's exactly what happened after Spider-Man took off his mask in front of the cameras in Civil War. Kingpin had an assassin kill Aunt May...and this lead to the events of One More Day...
@@ULTIMATZEKROM Ist one more day one of the most despised Spiderman storys ever written?
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Yup. The one where Peter gives up his marriage with Mary Jane so Mephisto would save Aunt May's life. It was incredibly stupid and reviewed as such.
And it all started when Peter unmasked himself to the world. When he gave up his secret identity to show support for Tony Stark's side of the conflict.
At least the reveal brought Lois and Clark closer... unlike Amber and Mark.
Watch episode 7.
This trope can really only work if the relationship has progressed long enough to the point where keeping the secret identity from the partner's really starting to become a detriment to their relationship so when the partner finally finds out on their own their anger can be justified.
A similar thing was done in the final episodes of, all things, Word girl where Word Girl's secret identity was starting to become a detriment to her friendship with Violet and it ultimately causes her to break off their friendship once Violet finds out her identity which sh had every reason to be upset about due to her being Becky/Word Girl's best friend so to not be in the loop broke Violet's trust in her.
Lois being DC’s Jonah Jameson is off-putting...
Good lord, I started a flame war...
...you haven't watch show have you.
@@angrybrony no I have not, but that doesn’t mean I don’t get the context.
She isn't. Watch the show, or just keep the bad take and take the L
She isn't. They're not even REMOTELY the same character.
@FillmGeekOfDoom She is worse. She is a Kotaku Styled Journalist willing to Cancel Superman.
another example of this is insomniacs spiderman where aunt may tells peter that shes known all along despite him not telling her and she kept it a secret but she didnt overreact given the situation because she told him that she was so proud of him where as with mj it was obvious that she figured it out pre-game and was still kind of bitter about it but was still willing to help him and throughout the game it showed that they were able to mend their relationship if he just let her help him, and miles i imagine he was dumbfounded that peter was spiderman but still obviously looked up to him and kept it a secret
"Why didn't you tell me you were Invincible?"
"Because nobody can keep a secret. My Dad's going to be in Mortal Kombat 1, but it was leaked out a couple of days before it was announced. Like, no one is able to keep a secret for even a day in this world, and one day, you're going to be yelling at me in public and blow my cover because you get too emotionally charged over such things! ... Also, I deal with villains who will rip people apart in alphabetical order and are as vindictive as Yandere-Chan, you think I'm going to confess to this anytime soon?"
At least the show tells us later that this was mostly derived from a fear that their relationship was potentially just a cover, combined with some general trust issues. Doesn’t exactly justify her reaction entirely but I’m praying the show addresses that.
They kinda do, but at the same time they don't. It's more like both characters say "it is what it is" and then make up, and I mean _really_ make up for it in episode 7.
Spider man 1 movie have a perfect reason and explanation why hero need secret identity.
To qoute Green Goblin: "You never know when some nutcase will come along and force an impossible choice for the hero."
You know, I can kinda see how Lois is right, and understand a little. OH BUT AMBER-
Lois's point is smaller than the Atom can shrink compared to the consequences for Clark and his loved ones if the wrong person learned he was Superman.
At least Losi and Clark make up in episode 6 and oh my gosh... 7 good lawd the inplications...😳
@@ULTIMATZEKROMYeah, how dare the person he's in a relationship with be mad he hid his secret identity. You know, that thing he keeps so villains won't find out and hurt his loved ones...like Lois, who ahs no idea and thus, unlike the Kents, can do absolutely nothing to be more careful to prevent it.
Lois been around long before Amber even existed of course her situation is different from Amber also Amber and mark are both kids while Lois and Clark are adults a bad comparison
My main takeaway from this was “Josh’s middle name is Thelonious?”
When does Josh say it? Also LOL
Poor Guy...
My reaction was "Josh's middle name is NOT Thelonious."
@@dylan8435it’s at the beginning in text
“Words of wisdom with Joshua Thelonious Burner”
While I do think the way Lois reacted to Clark’s identity was a bit unfair, especially when she basically forced it out of him by putting herself in danger when he tried to deny it, at the very least it gets revolved very quickly. What makes the Amber stuff so egregious though is that it serves as the main crux of their relationship drama. Which is fine to a degree, since they’re both dumb teenagers who do dumb things, and Mark isn’t blameless either due to being a brand new superhero and still not fully coming to grips with what that life entails. The main issue is that the writers tried to have their cake and eat it too by trying to subvert the trope by making it so Amber actually knew all along…despite the fact that Amber blows up at Mark for abandoning them to fight the cyborg. So if she knew his secret identity, why would she get angry for him leaving…if she *knew* he was risking his life fighting the cyborg???? If she knew all along, then she should have confronted Mark about it instead of getting angry at him for things she’s already aware about, instead of just stringing him along and act like she’s owed knowing an important part of his life just because they’re dating.
Like, I don’t outright hate Amber and can see what the showrunners were going for, but ended up largely fumbling the execution. And so she’s the weakest aspect of a genuinely well-written show, and I can only hope they don’t land in the same pitfalls with season 2.
Can we just call what Lois did what it is and it is a good old tried and true manipulative tactic called S****** Baiting.
I mean, Lois has been purposely throwing herself off roofs for decades. It's her go-to move. It's pretty tame, too. In the Superman 2 movie she revealed Clark's identity by shooting him.
@@zuulmeister8409 That trope needs to die faster than Women In Refrigerators.
@@zuulmeister8409 Yeah, but she's never gotten unreasonably mad at him either, nor acted like she was entitled to Clark's secrets
@@zuulmeister8409The difference is that those were often played off as a joke, often at her own expense, and weren't suppose to be taken seriously. Like in Superman 2, she jokes about "killing" Clark with a blank because she's not crazy enough to actually risk shooting Clark if she was wrong. The scene in MAWS is leading into a serious, emotional conflict that feels manufactured because Clark and Lois's relationship haven't developed enough to warrant this much agency so soon. It feels like that did it because they felt that there wasn't enough drama going on.
When I saw the scene where Lois learned Clark Kent and Superman are the same person and had a fit for not telling the truth, I too pointed out how Lois was being a hypocrite. Several people pointed out that Clark was also in the wrong for not telling Lois the truth, and while I did partially agreed with what they said, I countered that argument by pointing out how and why they lied.
Clark lied to protect people. If the world knew he was Superman his enemies would go after him and everyone he cared about. Plus, there were plenty of moments where he tried to reveal his identity to Lois, only for Lois to do something that makes him question on whether or not he should reveal his secret.
Lois lied to get what she wanted. Tricking other people into doing or thinking one thing, when in actuality she was just using them as expendables to hit the big leagues.
And not only that, but both Clark and Lois had different mentions on how they discovered the lie.
Clark acted much more calmly with a strong sense of disappointment. And it was made even worst considering that the lie had almost gotten them killed.
Lois exploded with anger that Clark lied to her, despite the fact that she had multiple moments where it was clear that revealing the truth to her would be difficult.
Amber was the worst part of Invincible for me, I saw people compare her favourably to graphic novel Amber by saying the latter was "boring", but I'd rather have boring than horribly unlikeable and treated as being in the right despite that.
There is a ultimate spider man episode where Peter thinks of what will happen if he revealed his identity to the world and has a imagination skit where everyone laughts at him for begin a wimpy person, and aunt may and Mary jane get mad at him because now the villains also know and can track him down either be his house or when in public. It is a good depiction of why the secret identity works, because it helps to keep both lives separately.
What made me made the most was that louis's reason for hating being lied to was literally just daddy issues
Makes me glad that her and clark made up in the next episode and its no longer an issue between them
It soured my mood in wanting to actually watch the show. And no. After so many other shows people told me not to watch and for good reason,I don't care about context cause most diehard defenders don't either.
@@ZX-Gear The Internet is not as reliable as what it used to be.
@@ZX-Gear You really can't trust folks saying all modern things suck because it's in our nature to focus on what sucks.
@beyondthebat1184 No. They do suck. Look at video games in the AAA sphere and you can tell there is a huge fall off not including the predatory practices of nickel and diming customers.
@@UnrealNeoBat I trust the members of SAG-AFTRA striking even less.
2:27 When she said that, I was thinking “So what if Superman was anyone else?” and “Why should he tell you this considering you haven’t known each other for that long?”
It's like the writers have forgotten the point of secret identity and the consequences that can come from revealing it also stupid how 2 of the examples haven't known each other for that long
I remember there being a video on UA-cam about one of Spider-Man's best relationships being from one of the alternate universes where he was with a mutant from Professor X's school and the relationship worked out pretty great since she figured it out pretty quickly, was very understanding about how he had to sometimes put off time to spend with her to do his heroing, and overall loved him because of the way he was rather than getting pissy about his hero work and such. I wonder why we haven't seen relationships like that around in modern media.
Also, why is Marvel's Avengers marked as the game Josh played when it was clearly Final Fantasy XVI?
Ironically much later after the who Lois fiasco.. there is an episode with the mulitverse (YES MULTIVERSE!) where the "LEAGUE OF LOIS'S" is shown and guess what this universe Lois finds out?
"I am THE WORST LOIS ever!"
To the point that later during a battle, both Superman and Lois apoligse to eachother. But mostly... Lois finds out what she was getting herself into..
Just the fact she could SELF REFLECT was what we needed to see.
The Council of Ricks and a show made for and by alleged Reddit Sex Pests and its consequences have been a disaster to adult animation. Do NOT get me started with the reoccurring incest plotlines of the latest season.
Ok that's it! I get that people are getting tired of Multiverse stories but to say it has done damage to media is a VAST understatement. This has been a thing since the 1930s when the flash of two worlds comic was made. It's the same argument with Time Travel or Fantasy Epics of the 80s. Multiverse stories are becoming mainstream, that's just the result of being used frequently. I get you guys are tired but as someone who is writing a Multiverse Epic, that arguement is a little naive.
@@hotspotcinema234 That is the problem with becoming mainstream. It gets dumbed down to where every jackoff thinks they can write something similar without having to stand out. Just look at anime with Isekais.
@@ZX-Gear That's where the writers/creatives have to be creative to stand out. Especially in comics. Just because something is mainstream doesn't mean it's bad. The only way for the multiverse to thrive better is to either make a point about our society, see all the routes we could've taken and even see who we would become under different circumstances. And that's just the tip of the iceburg. Multiverse stories need air to breathe and some of yall are just not ready for that conversation.
@hotspotcinema234 No. At this point,whenever something goes mainstream or rather tries to appeal to a wider audience or what we once called the Lowest Common Denominator,that is when shit goes bad. Sometimes certain concepts should be niche as I am sure most fans of classic sci-fi hate the many Reddit Tier Rick and Morty fans shitting up discourse.
I love (read: hate) how the moment there's relationships with the main hero, writers tend to forget that there are so many valid reasons a secret identity to warrant keeping one secret/lie. Even on a baseline Batman vs Mafia level of conflict, if anyone knew Bruce Wayne was Batman, there could be an organized smash-and-grab raid/arson attack on Wayne Manor, possibly putting Alfred's life in danger depending on how badass his backstory is. Not even mentioning the things a vigilante would suddenly be legally liable for, despite this culture that's split on whether or not police (the people that are supposed to be qualified to handle these things) should be trusted with blanket waived liability, let alone The Good Guy With A Gun™, or in this case cool gadgets or superpowers.
Some people would be afraid and demand he be locked up, some people would be begging him to help more, it's a ton of subjective fallout that could easily catch relatives and acquaintances. Wayne Enterprises as a business and employer for at least hundreds of jobs would be in TURMOIL because the heir was beating up crooks with questionable legality. The Daily Planet as a news organization would have their credibility shot when it turns out every Superman story they published was written by Clark's girlfriend, a horrible violation of journalistic standards, and Lois would be made into a perfect scapegoat to avoid responsibility, likely never getting a news job ever again. Yes, you can do a Marvel and open up the biases, and then any villain with intelligence and political acumen, say Lex Luthor, could well and easily leverage that against the heroes.
All of that justification, and we haven't even touched the supervillains. The likes of Rhino, Juggernaut, Bane that are basically impossible for any police and sometimes even military unit to defeat blow-for-blow, ready and willing to do whatever they can to make sure the one guy that CAN stop them won't be an issue, all while the superhero can only be in one place at a time. Not even bringing up the borderline demigod villains like Poison Ivy or Doomsday that already have no quarrels with collateral damage.
In some shows there can be other consequences to the secret being revealed.
Remember FOP and what will happen if anyone learns that Timmy has fairy godparents?
I think my problem with these secret identity drama plots is that it always comes off as if the Loises of the relationships are entitled to know up front. People should reveal personal information about themselves when they’re comfortable and trust the other person in the relationship. Obviously the other factors should be taken into consideration such as the feelings of the other person, how the relationship is developing, and how reasonable is it to keep a secret. I would have the reverse issue if we saw a show where Lois and Clark were married for ten years and it made Lois to be the unreasonable one for being upset that Clark hadn’t told her this secret.
What makes a lot of these characters worse about not being told about the identities is the fact that they don't realize that if anyone knew...specifically a villain...they ALSO would be a target. Lois and the others could easily be targeted by villains wanting leverage or revenge. As such, keeping the identities a secret was more to keep THEM safe than the heroes. As much as JJ Jameson wanted to know Spiderman's identity, how would he react when he realizes the villains would target HIM if everyone knew Peter Parker worked for him? Heck...just look at No Way Home for an example of this!
JJ is actually a prime example of the exact opposite kind of reaction but in the same "I can't believe you" strain:
He starts becoming Peter's more trusted second hand, helping get him to a medical professional when he learns he got shot, suiting up in his Anti-Spider-Man suit to help DEFEND Spider-Man...
He's still just as shocked as everyone else given at "You've been lying to me about your other self the whole time" but its in the vein of "And you've been fighting deranged psychopaths and criminals while you're STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL? Good god, kid, I gotta help you."
@@cgkase6210 Yes...and I loved that! Here's the guy thinking Spiderman is a criminal all this time...and when he learns the truth he has an "Oh my God..." moment and becomes a better person. Heck...his obsession over Spiderman caused him to delve into self-destructive behavior that nearly tanked his career...and then he learns the truth and has an epiphany. I love good character development like that!
HOW THE HELL DID MODERN MARVEL FORGET THAT?!?
To be fair with Lois that was her gut reaction to finding out Clark was Superman. I think it makes sense she isn't going to be completely rational about it. In the next episode it's even point out that the reason Lois was so upset about it was that she was afraid the Clark she was getting to know and love was nothing more than a cover up for Superman which I think is fair fear.
I don't even think they were saying Lois was in the right. To me it felt like they both made a mistake, but I could still agree they should have had the 2 apologize.
Even in The New 52 she's a jerkass, when she found out Clark was Superman, she still wrote an article about that after a villain exposed him. When tied with the lasso of truth, the reason she gave on why she wrote the article, practically confirming what the villain exposed, was because it was a story, which earns her a deserved haymaker from Lana Lang.
Well New 52 wasn't the best time for the Superman mythos. Rebirth was definitely a breath of fresh air at the time because they were doing everything in their power to make people hate Lois.
@@kingbash6466New 52 wasn’t a good time for anyone at DC.
This Lois doesn’t seem like a jerkass. She just seems like she was wrong.
Wasnt New 52 as a hole utter garbage?
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Yeah, Superman was kind of a hothead in this and then there is Jim Gordon and his mech suit, the "Bat Bunny" all i have to say is goddanmit Barry!
This type of situation has been happening in way more shows as of recent, and I suspect that there's gonna be a show in the future (near or far from now) that will have this exact same thing happen, but the one who gets called out is the person who's being "lied" to.
I'm both looking forward to it and _not_ looking forward to it.
I'm looking forward to it because it'll be really satisfying to watch a character like Amber or Lois or Teela get taken down a peg after what feels like _years_ of them getting away with being toxic under the guise of "___ lied to me first".
I'm _not_ looking forward to it because it'll eventually be used in way more shows and eventually become just as obnoxious (and maybe even just as nonsensical) as this current trend.
That's how the figurative pendulum works, unfortunately.
I think this is happening because the writers themselves seemed frustrated with the "dishonesty" and it never being addressed in the original shows.
On paper, the discussion around secret identities seems like a good way to help a reboot of a superhero media stand out. But it has to be executed right.
I would like to point out that they had a chance to redeem Amber in Invincible if she apologized to Mark for what she said but no she doesn't do that instead she gets back together with him, reveals that she knows his father is Omni-man and says the most atrocious line, "guess I wasn't the only one being lied to."
Well she didn't get back with him but yeah I agree.
@@hadouradiance3566 no they did get back together
This is actually an amazing point I have thought about when it comes to knowing hero’s identity. In the past, shows with heroes either keep their secret well or have just one or few people to trust with their identity. Recently though with newer superhero shows, we see a bigger group let alone probably a whole town knowing a hero’s identity, which is very dangerous. An example is Ducktales, on Fenton/ GizmoDuck. In old series it was only Scrooge and his mother who were able to keep Fenton’s identity as a secret. In the new series, it was like every appearance Fenton makes the Duck family little by little knew his secret till the end where practically the main cast was well aware. This should not be a bad thing because it just means more inclusion. However it felt like a joke on how bad Fenton kept a secret, and how many knew it just felt like it wasn’t exciting or important.
Short version:read civil war and see how revealing your identity helps
Honestly the secret identity thing helps more than hurts. If lois lane was wrong shed be dead remember that and remember this. SHE DOES THIS IN MANY OF HER VERSIONS. No joke she falls off of buildings all the time. Now she's being shady for the alternative universe supermans who btw aren't him(she met her self and still has doubts on being different from other universe versions)
Still better than tv show amber by a mile
Can we kill this trend of Lois S****** Baiting for a story? The DCAU handled this shit better when found out Batman was Bruce Wayne.
Well it is rare Lois literally throws herself off the building. More often she is pushed or at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Yeah, at least the reveal brought Lois and Clark closer. (Watch episode 6 and 7) Unlike what happened with Amber...
Seriously why were people still on Tony's side during civil war in the comics
@@vulpixle9659 The reader’s weren’t the writers were.
I would highly recommend people read Daredevil's Born Again storyline to highlight the dangers of superheroes blindly trusting a loved one with their identities.
So this isn't exactly the same, but I want to talk to about Young Justice because the theme of keeping secrets is very prominent in that show.
In the penultimate episode of Season 1, Superboy, Miss Martian, and Artemis (who are all suspected of being moles) reveal the actual secrets that they've been keeping from the Team. Not only is it extremely cathartic to see the heroes being able to trust each other and getting things like that off their chest, but it wonderfully contrasts how a lot of the villains are mostly in it for themselves and are willing to abandon their so called "allies" because that alliance is more born out of convenience and self-interest than anything.
As a bonus, the person who was actually the mole was specifically instructed to target suspicions on Superboy, Miss Martian, and Artemis to exasperate the Team's mistrust in each other.
There's a reason that the episode where Lois force's him to reveal his identity to her is (at least according to Comic Book Resources) a lot of people's least favorite episode of what is otherwise a pretty good Superman show.
I'll give credit where credit is due, at least My Adventures with Superman doesn't portray Lois as in the right during that argument. Was her reaction over-the-top and drastic, absolutely, but given how her character has been developed to this point, it was understandable. Given her backstory and how she was raised, I can also understand why she lies in those moments. Whether we want to admit it or not, or if we're aware of it or not, the people who raise us mold us into who we are. I would appreciate it it that comes up later on in the show, which given how things are progressing and who I think the general is going to be revealed to be, is a likely possibility. I also would like to point out that Lois has been pulling stunts like that since her creation in the comics. It's not new for her character to put herself in danger so that Superman can save her. In fact, that scene from My Adventures with Superman mirrors a scene from Superman II, the Christopher Reeves movie, where Lois figures it out, confronts Clark, who denies it, and then jumps out a window stating, "You wouldn't let me die Superman." It's almost point for point in how both are executed, and yet no one complained when that Lois did it, at least to my knowledge. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
It has been years since I last saw Superman II, but didn't Lois go over a railing at Niagara Falls instead of out a window, or am I thinking of another scene?
@@jordanhunter3375 That is a different scene that the one I was referring to. I believe the Niagara Falls scene happens first and the window scene happens in the middle of the movie.
4:30 I brought this up in one of my videos, you put it better here.
We need to come to a general agreement in the superhero watching community what the general timeframe is for a superhero telling their secret identity to a significant other. Somewhere on the sliding scale of it being nuts to tell anyone after 1 month of dating, to being downright evil not to tell them after 2 years of marriage. Something like a 6 month mark of dating where the superhero either tells the other person, or breaks up with them.
A year seems fine to me.
I agree with you, Josh.
Why is it that the Spiderman movie girlfriends are the most understanding characters? In the Tobey Maguire movies Mary Jane was upset but understood that Peter couldn’t ignore when people were in danger and in the Andrew Garfield movies Gwen actively assisted in the events. Only people with some screws loose in their heads would “TEST” their relationship or just jump off the top of a god dam skyscraper to force a confession of something.
You are right in that lois is wrong but she is way better than Amber because at least she had a reason. She's not mad that he kept the fact that he was a superhero a secret. She's mad becase was in danger and keeping it a secret. People forget that Lois's mother died from an illness her father lied to her about. She's most certainly projecting. But I think it's cause she's afraid of getting that call.
"How dare you lie to me about your identity"
"Oh excuuuuse me, ms 'i want to expose all of my secrets' half the villains i fight read minds, imagine what they would do if they knew i was your boyfriend/lover/crush,. These guys come out of an asylum to fight me"
in all honestly, jimmy's reaction was way better than lois. Clark had more reason to be wary of her even when they were noticing each other romantically. Hell, she even blurted out her intentions in front of the man (unknowingly, but still), which would make almost anyone not want to say anything if she was going to do that. She definitely deserves most of that fault, hell she should have had that thrown back in her face by jimmy or someone else because there if i was on that receiving end of that, that's it. I'm done with her nonsense. This Lois needs a serving of humble pie slammed in her face.
Happens an episode later where she compares herself with a multiverse of Lois's and finds out: "Wow.. I AM THE WORST LOIS!"
She isn't told... SHE FIND IT OUT HERSELF!
There's a reason why secret identities exist.
A cunning villain attacks the heart.
If the villain finds out who the hero who he or she really is, the villain can take advantage of that.
Spider-Man(2002) is one of the biggest examples of this.
Spoilers for two movies.
As soon as Norman Osborn found out who Spider-Man was, not only did he go after Aunt May, he later went after Mary Jane.
And in Spider-Man 3(2007), as soon as Eddie knew Peter was Spider-Man due to the symbiote, He also targeted Mary Jane!
This is why keeping your hero identity a secret is important, heck, it's very likely that is why back with MMPR, then it was one of Zordon's 3 rules to being a ranger.
She did jump off a building in the comics LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before the show was conceived. So it's not out of character for her to do it.
I don’t really think the show painted Lois as in the right. Because the next episode they say exactly why Lois reacted that way, and say why the whole situation was due to her insecurities and faults.
It wasn’t just that Clark lied to her, it’s that she feared that him lying about the identity also meant that he was lying to her about his feelings for her. Basically she got caught in her own head of fear of lies (which explains her personality and why she’s such a drive for “exposing the truth”), and I’m going to guess that probably next episode where we learn about who The General is we learn why Lois has such a trauma response to being deceived.
Maybe they should have expanded more on her apologizing for getting in her own head, but I don’t think the show is just hand waving it as “yep she’s right he shoulda said it out the gate”.
Well tonight is the new episode where Lois and Jimmy have to save Clark from general, and we might find the truth of what the heck is going on!
You know what I don’t understand about the “can’t reveal my identity to friends/family” trope? Is that if a VILLAIN finds out the hero’s identity, the friends/family have no way of knowing or defending themselves. Telling them wouldn’t put them in danger, it would arm them with knowledge! Plus, they could help the hero come up with alibis and excuses to run off. Even if a friend/family member betrays the hero, that would still be more interesting than the “I can’t tell anyone” schlock that we’re force-fed at this point.
the more people that know the more potential leaks there are.
This trend seems to have started out because of the way people have read secret identities as not trusting others enough, but at the same time not giving the discussion enough nuance.
Especially in Lois' case as she doesn't even have the excuse that the others do of how she wouldn't tell anyone else given she herself stated she absolutely would.
This!!!
The one element that all three of these cases have in common and could've been used way more effectively to fix the majority of backlash, is that all three of these partners were being emotional. Their arguments were very much emotionally driven and essentially vented out their stress and trauma on their significant others. Needless to say; when you're emotional, you don't really tend to make the best decisions. Very seldom do people also own up to their outbursts even if they do realize that afterward, and instead try to justify their behaviour to preserve their egos.
However, that's not how these three instances are 'portrayed', but instead as Josh points out; they're portrayed as 'being in the right' and the characters don't really own up to their mistakes (except Teela to some degree).
With just some minor additional writing, could these instances have been handled way better. Instead, it really makes me wonder what sort of relationship-experience the writing teams have been through.
I have plenty of issues with Lois in this show. The more I think about, she does have flaws that would be very believable for a younger, less experienced Lois Lane. The issue I've seen is that the show seems to have this strange infatuation with her and don't want to put her in situations that would have her address those flaws. The best example is probably episode 7 where is literally surrounded by alternate variants of herself. She feels insecure because they're more accomplished than her but they also have amplified versions of her worst traits (they're extremely distrustful, condescending, impatient and unknowingly self-sabotaging) but Lois doesn’t really pick up on any of these. I think the worst thing she says about herself is that she's annoying which feels very safe in terms of acknowledging a flaw.
I remember a show from years ago that handled anger as a mask for sadness. An episode of Charmed had Piper turn into a Fury because she internalized her grief over losing her older sister, Prue. This was also a recurring flaw for Piper as she often internalized her feelings to try to remain the grounded and level headed one of the sisters. But people can't silently shoulder every burden all the time, eventually you crack.
If Teela had acted like Piper did, blowing up because she couldn't handle being stoic in the face of such a painful and personal tragedy, she would have been so much more relatable.
Let's gooooo Josh exposing the truth.
To go back to a Batman paraphrase:
The mask isn’t for me, it’s for you.
For Amber it would not make it better if we know that Amber knew that Mark's a Superhero because that was not the only problem. The others being that the whole show is 100% on Amber side and she did nothing wrong and the fact that Amber cares more about Mark telling his secret to her then Mark himself. Because if she really care about Mark then why did she not just take him somewhere to have a one on one talk between the two of them without no one else is around or did she wanted others to know his secret too. Did Amber wanted Mark to tell her during the villain attack and the Villain finds out about Mark.
Okay. I think one, the fact that this happened 3 episodes ago, 1 episode dealing with the fallout and two others where we get to move on, colors my opinion on this, but they didn't show Lois is in the right. They show that she is angry and frustrated (for multiple reasons) that she went to such an extreme, and Clark makes a good point that he wasn't sure he could trust her yet as he didn't understand the powers himself. Then as I said, the next episode happens where the two of them have to work together to save Jimmy from whatever weird mess he had gotten himself in (who also has one of my favorite reveals ever). Then, by the end of it, the three of them make up, and establish what's going to be the new normal from now on. Again I know this is from hindsight, and Josh is talking from the perspective who likely only saw the episode up to that point, but again, I don't see the show ever saying she was in the right. I see it as the show trying to do a Liar Reveal trope, which is rarely ever done well, and just try to push past the drama that creates to establish the status quo the show's premise is on. It also definitely handled the subject much better then Invincible did.
Edit: Also the Liar Reveal isn't a new trope. It's existed for a long long time. It even has been a constant trope in Superhero comics, including Superman, since nearly the point of needing a secret identity was something that was decided on. The fact that two shows recently have decided to use it recently doesn't really make it new.
And yeah, the trope itself isn't well liked in the first place, because the whole point is to create drama that is only going to get resolved by the end one way or another.
I just realized something. Replace "secret identity reveal" with "coming out" and it becomes a dozen times worse. I know it's not at all the intention but ever since Across the Spider-verse, the idea of secret identity reveals as coming out metaphors makes too much sense. And the idea of Jimmy being enough of a bro to just wait for Clark to say he's Superman adds to that.
Damn. I doubt that is the subtext they went with secret identities but it made Lois look like a bigot by proxie. Which is rich considering her literal fatherless behavior.
But... Lois does acknowledge she was being unfair, like the episode after or something.
Many stopped watching before it.
@@ChiefMedicPururu Bruh, seriously?
@@Narlaw1199People probably lost interest.
So El Tigre was added to Paramount+ recently, so I’ve had a chance to rewatch it since I haven’t seen it in years. You want to know something funny.
When it comes to the main character Manny, the show mostly avoids the secret identity trope, except for when his mom Maria is introduced.
They use the twist of Maria knowing his secret identity, but she doesn’t hold it against him, since she knows Manny and his dad Rodolfo fight super villains on a regular basis and keep the city safe.
Keep in mind, she divorced Rodolfo because the thought of him putting his life on the line to fight evil, gave her panic attacks, and made her constantly hyperventilate. She still put that aside and let Manny keep fighting for the greater good
1:28-2:09 I didn’t know Josh took a course in Steiner maths
A long time ago as kid I wrote a story were the love interest find the hero identity and she gets mad ,and get transformed into a monster the hero says to her do you know how many people I have fought with mind reading powers ? A hero and a villain usually are thinking in wining the fight so the villain can read that deep without leaving themselves open but a civilian that the hero is. Always saving that’s different,this new trend made think about that, Louis scream at the four winds once already and some defend this saying” yeah because there is only one Clark on metrópolis”um well there is only one Clark in Louis life imagine some super smart villain like lex Lutor listened to her and was like “hmm ,this woman knows that super man is someone named Clark let’s check her social media and see how many Clark’s she knows ,only one ,well that was easy”
I think it’s sort of addressing this in the latest episodes with Vicki vale’s arrival
You know what? I’d say some modern screen writers who do stuff like this with Lois should probably watch and even read on how to make a secret identity reveal important.
I’d always use two Ben 10 episodes as examples (one being from AF and the other from UA). The first one showing the hero’s identity being revealed by his family and trying to prove that he’s grown to protect everyone from threats like the high breed. Meanwhile in UA, there’s an episode where it shows the downside of being revealed to the world about being a hero and that’s the fact any villain can target them. Just that fact alone is enough ti make you think of the dangers to your identity being revealed.
Unlike how Lois did in this series by just doing a suicidal attempt just to bait Clark and make him reveal his identity. Jimmy was in the right to remain silent until Clark was comfortable to talk about it.
...did it paint her as being in the right? Very much not what I took away from it. Honestly I feel like it's been building towards her realising how wrong she is and the harm she's done to Clark
This feels like Invincible again.
To paraphrase Green Arrow from the Identity Crisis omnibus: "You wear the mask to protect your friends and loved ones."
Also, Lois was way to eager for her first big break to even consider the ramifications her actions would have on others. She needed a stern talking to and to reflect on her massive hypocrisy. Sadly, we rushed past any chance of that. As of the finale, we know where she learned to be so judgmental and bullheaded.
Aside, you're getting enough rest being a new papa and all.
So earlier this year, Hamster & Gretel ALSO did this kinda trope, but between BFFs rather than lovers.
Following the ending of "My Invisible Friend", Bailey finds out in "The Bitter Sitter" that her best friend Gretel is the same person as the superhero Gretel she idolizes. While there was a moment that shows Bailey being super excited about the revelation, she's pissed at Gretel when the latter still attempts to damage-control the whole thing (as Gretel promised her brother Kevin to tell no one - including Bailey - that she and her pet Hamster have received superpowers from aliens; so naturally Gretel is in full panic mode).
In addition to Bailey having enough of Gretel keeping ditching her in "My Invisible Friend" for this reason, Bailey comes to the conclusion that Gretel doesn't trust her enough to tell her anything and decides to no longer talk to her until she got her feelings sorted out (this continues even when Gretel and Bailey get babysat for the majority of the episode, as Bailey finds a loophole by using Hamster as a middleman). By the end of the episode, Bailey realizes on her own why Gretel kept this secret from her, and admits that no longer talking to Gretel was one of the most difficult things she has ever done, as the two make up.
Personally, I thought this was better done than most of the examples discussed in this stream clip. Both Bailey and Gretel's sides and actions were understandable, Bailey wasn't purposefully "testing" Gretel to reveal her superpowers to her (and although Gretel had to reveal her superpowers to Bailey because a spotlight was nearly dropping onto her in "My Invisible Friend", Bailey had never purposefully put herself into danger either), both girls regretted what they have done, and made up before the episode was over. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a "this is how this trope is done RIGHT" kind of episode, but I didn't think it was awfully done, either.
It was not a deal breaker for me, but Josh has got a point
Well said Josh, well said!
In this day in age where someone could steal your whole entire identity. Nobody should be critiquing superheroes for keep a secret identity. I blame the MCU for painting the false impression that a superhero can just outright reveal themselves and recieve zero repercussions. It would seem that these recent scenarios are written by people with zero concepts of what trust really is. They have no standards of what trust is which interesting how loose of a trust being broken is to them. Would more than likely be the ones telling people business all over the place. And will still claim to be a good/best friend. At worse they are the type carry a vindictive attitude do being lied to in the past and airing that vindictiveness onto the page.
I think _The Death of Superman_ set the gold standard for Clark telling Lois his secret.
I think Hamster and Gretel also did the secret identity reveal except it happened between best friends instead of significant others. Sure, the discoverer was angry initially, but the two of them make up and reaffirm their friendship by the end of the episode. Also, they were 6.
That happened in the Phineas and Fern movie too right? With Perry and Phineas?
@DrawciaGleam02 Oh, I suppose it did. Perry not being able to talk might have complicated things a bit, but everyone was pretty understanding after the situation was spelled out.
There's a big difference between liying and keeping a secret. A lie is purposefully _giving_ *misinformation.* Keeping a secret is purposefully _withholding_ information. That's not to say that secret keeping can't be hurtful. It's the intention behind the action that matters. Lies are always done with the intention of hurting someone or something else. Secret keeping can go either way.
I honestly forgot Masters of the Universe: Revelation existed.
I'll admit that the way that episode portrayed Lois really did rub me the wrong way. It's understandable why Superman has to keep his identity a secret but the way they forced it out is what ruined the character for some. If anything Avatar did the whole keeping a secret trope better in the episode "Bato of the Water Tribe". Not only did they present the conflict of Aang keeping the map to Sokka and Katara's father a secret and the fallout well enough, but you can understand why each party reacted the way they did.
Sokka was mad at Aang cause he never got to see his father after the war with the Fire Nation began and Aang was afraid of losing the ones he could call his family and them abandoning him. As much as Aang wrong for doing that Sokka was much at fault for his reaction and after talking with Bato it gave him time to reflect on why his father left the water tribe and then coming to his senses. Both sides were treated equally at fault for the conflict and didn't favor one over the other.
I miss the good ol’ days where it’s like “oh, you were keeping your superhero identity a secret because if anyone happened to overhear this conversation they could spread the secret like the plague-“ **catches breath** “-and it could end up going to a powerful villain that could use this knowledge to capture me and use me as a hostage to have you follow their commands or they would off me? That makes sense. Thanks for trusting me enough anyways!”
Instead it’s now “WAAAAH! I HATE SECWETS! YOU KNOW I HATE SECWETS! YOU MUST NOT LOVE ME OR TWUST ME FOW KEEPING THIS FROM MEEE! WAAAAH!😭”
then the joker says: hey kido even i keep my arch nesses batmans secrit idnty under warps as much as I can! this is becue if im not batmans foil then i lose all motvation and get realy very sad clown issues. so lous toots you ealy need to learn theres conquesice with how you do things. heck if i can try to keep batmans serct identy a secet out for my and batmans convance sakes. then you lous might need to do the same for the super man. this is becuse if you can't keep giong on with your life bescue of spilling the beans far too soon and acting like your entileted to it. also you hevent even got to the pont of when you earned entogh trust and repect then its giong to give you alot of bad days in the long term just being a poor sport. it be darn too soon of the punch line yet in the show fokes.
@@ashtiboy I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to get at. Are you agreeing with me? Because I can barely read what you wrote.
Personally, I thought the new Superman show got better after that part passed by.
I have one Josh and other Commenters, what about men who knows a girl likes him, but doesn’t confess it outright, due to either having low confidence, or has a broken heart many times and so on, but rather than just confessing, the guy boosts the girls confidence hanging out with her, having her achieve great things that couldn’t be possible, going out playing at the arcade and once her confidence is restored she’ll be able to confess to him first
Is that anyway a bad thing to do?
To be fair, this isn't the first time Lois pulled this shit.
What I got from this is that Jimmy is the best boy.
Jimmy is Clark's Speedwagon.
I agree one hundred percent agree. Lois kinda I don’t know…THREATENED SUPERMAN IDENTITY AND IN TURN HER LIVELIHOOD! Buuuut, she truly is as blind as bat compared to Amber. She has one exit from her blame sooo…baby steps
Largely, I agree with you about what you said. One thing this clip didn't really cover is the part where Lois coerces by threatening self-deletion by jumping off the building, and still frames herself as justified. At least when they did that in Superman 2, they called Lois out on her doing that.
the editing of this video is a certified Hood Classic
I think...My Adventures With Superman handles it pretty well. Not perfectly, but well enough. I mean, yeah her reaction was over the top, but I don't think the show presented Lois as in the right. Every time Lois and Clark get into an argument in this show Clark tends to shoot back instantly with everything SHE did wrong as well, like the lying thing in episode 1. I very easily sided with Clark here, especially after he said "You already know I'm Superman, what more do you want?!". And furthermore, in Episode 6 Jimmy reacts how one should normally react if they already knew: "It's your secret, you have a right to tell me when you feel comfortable doing it", but then again I haven't seen Episode 7 yet so my opinion might change.
On the other hand, Invincible handled this very poorly. I got in a heated discussion about this a couple years back (I disengaged because the dude told me I only have a problem with Amber because I "don't understand women" which is thoroughly idiotic and sexist, women aren't selfish manipulators lmfao), about how Amber's scene was terribly written. Not only did she not communicate her problem to Mark over the course of I believe weeks, broke up with him without actually breaking up with him and then everyone treating Mark like he's the one in the wrong for not suddenly being a DC martian and reading her mind. Then she makes her earlier freakout about the cyborg thing look STUPID or manipulative by either
A) having a genuine reaction despite the fact that she KNEW he was Invincible for the fight and could have DIED
or
B) having a fake reaction in order to goad/trick him into confessing a big secret 4 months into the relationship, which I shouldn't have to explain how wrong that is.
And the worst, worst things she's done are comparing him basically going to war for no reward whatsoever to a fucking soup kitchen and the "I guess we were both lied to" shit. Like are you serious? Joking about his trauma and comparing it to what he already feels guilty about? What a terrible girlfriend. And her acting like she had a right to know a massive secret after only 4 months of dating.
Edit: DUDE THE TEELA SHIT. Made me turn off the show immediately. Never turned it back on again. Like why would you rant abut Adam lying to you in front of his GRIEVING PARENTS IMMEDIATELY PROCEEDING HIS DEATH? What is your problem?!
“Really? The police can handle… the things that Big Hero 6 deals with?”
_“Here’s the scraps you’re after.”_
The secret identity trope tends to make it way to easy for a show to create false drama between characters and that’s why I’m not fond of it. It’s a trope that needs really good writers execute because it’s way to easy to screw up otherwise.
I think the secret magical friend trope is similar.
Still haven't seen My Adventures with Superman and yet I agree with this discussion that Josh just addressed. (Btw is this show really as good as people say?)
If you don’t hate anime and gaming influences and want a fairly lighthearted, fun, and funny take on Superman, highly recommend it. It’s one of the best Clarks we’ve had in a while and the main trio is adorkably great.
Oh believe me, you NEED to see the context behind what the reactionaries are saying. Especially how Lois and Clark's relationship is handled in episode 6 and, good lawd the coffe implications in episode 7...😳
I feel like these modern writers forget that the whole point with a secret identity is to protect the people close to them. Like Superman may have superpowers, but Martha and Jonathan Kent do not, neither do Lois or Jimmy. Same with Invincible and his mom.
And I think the best case of this Spider-Man with Aunt May and Mary-Jane. Because there is so many comics out there that when Spider-Man's identity gets leaked, his loved ones are in instant danger. Aunt May has gotten shot by a hitman after the Civil War event. Mary-Jane and their kid have been taken hostage by Venom. Just to name a few examples.
I’m not much of a comic book guy, but I am somebody that tries to understand relationships. Which is why I think a certain episode of the CW Supergirl handled this kind of concept adequately. That version of Supergirl and that version of Mr. Mxy were discussing how Kara and Lena Luthor (sister to Lex Luthor) where to go about their “friendship“ with Lena, having recently found out and being distraught. Mxy showed Kara some alternate realities where Kara told Lena earlier, but in someway they all ended badly. I forgot what happened later in that season in the relationship, but I do remember that eventually they get back on good terms. So the lesson that I take from it is that sometimes when it comes to big secret reveals, sometimes people just need a little more time when it relationships are complex.
I also want to add that the show didn't address Lois's ultimatum to Clark and the argument that followed well. The way she forced him to spill his secret was actually harmful. Imagine you have a secret that you hid because you are afraid of becoming an outcast if people found out, and someone threatens to kill herself, or will stop being your friend, or "if you don't tell me then you don't really love", that is toxic and harmful. And the show treats it as no big deal.
My point still stands. She jumped off a building! She needs help!
True Clark shouldn't lie to Lois but if he is Superman and he has a superhero identity as people find out that Lois Lane is sleeping what's Superman every single bad guy and every single person that hates Superman will attack Lois Lane put a bomb inside of her heart and her unborn baby heart and then you have injustice this is the same situation that I had with Spider-Man
Josh Rants videos should become a thing imo.
I haven't watched the show properly, so I can't judge. I just enjoy how everything looks like an anime scene! ☺️
Okay seriously, Why is this stupid trope becoming more normalized? News flash story writers, this trope is one of the WORST ways to create Drama in Superhero media!
Yep. Even Arkham Knight, a game I enjoyed did this with Gordon stopped trusting Batman after finding out Barbara is Oracle. The comics had already established that Gordon knew from day one that Barbara was Batgirl. Though even that game he has a better point than here because Batman’s connection to Barbara is the reason she was kidnapped which he actually mentions.
@@emberfist8347That's not as bad as the TNBA Episode Over The Edge, in a dream sequnce where Gordon finds out Batgirl is his daughter, jumps to the conclusion that Batman murdered her and hires Bane to capture him and is shocked when Bane betrays him and tries to kill Batman instead.
I know that was all a dream but Seriously?
That Episode is Overrated in my eyes.
@@eamonndeane587 Well you forget the part where Barbara was killed in front of him. And the point is that the real Gordon wouldn’t act like that as the ending heavily implies he knew all along Barbara was Batgirl something the comics confirmed was the case.