I haven't watched or read black clover so I can only go off what you said here. The important thing about this case seems to be that he is limited, he has an incredibly powerful ability buy it is highly limited in how he can use it, OPness comes when you are either way stronger then everyone else or you counter everyone else too perfectly. Every character should have a weakness to exploit, it is perhaps super common in series like isekais where the main character is often too strong to ever be challenged and a story can become less about the characters struggling to achieve their goals and more about wish fulfilment. so many of the best parts of a fight scene, the characters analyzing one another, them trading abilities and using their skills in interesting ways to counter each other, the tension, etc, just go completely out the window when the MC is too OP. If you want your fights to be interesting, every ability should have a downside and if that downside is something like "it also hurts the user" then it noticeably and preferably visibly hurt the user in a way that actually affects the narrative. one thing I have always found annoying is when downsides are stated only to not be actually utilized: It's like the way in Naruto every ability has a chakra limit but it doesn't matter because characters never actually risk running out of chakra because it only runs out when the plot says its time too. Or the curse mark, which supposedly damages both the mind and body of the user but sasuke is never tired after using it, has no long term damages despite using it every fight and had no problem stabbing orochi in the back first depite the fact that the mark was supposed to make him subservient to orochi.
The hurts the usser part i use it in My story. Since the Magic got a biological part on it (an alternative circulatory system, filled with Magic energy) You can use Magic more powerful than your límit, but it Would be like forcing your body to run 10KM when You only can run 7. It Will hurt and probably You won't be able to move that much a few days after. In the worst situation, You can Even lose the ability to use magic
I agree that at where you are he is not really op but it does become so very very fast. By the point the anime gets to asta himself isn’t fully considered op but anti magic definitely is where some enemies can’t be damaged without it. At the point where the manga is asta is most definitely op where if he went up against any character other than the big bad he would likely beat them with little issue if he went all out and by end point of manga practically all enemies need anti magic to even damage seriously or being yuno and have all the hax he gets by end of series to compete
It's worth noting that this is NOT generally a result of antimagic itself scaling or becoming more powerful but rather antimagic being combined with other parallel power systems/techniques that also happen to augment Asta's fighting style or abilities. I can't go too deeply since it would constitute spoilers, but I'll just say learning ki was only the first time Asta got access to skills outside antimagic (and the premise of the series is consistent in that Asta does not get access to the boons of the mana power system at all.)
@@KDPhilosophy I’m going to talk about manga spoilers in this post so if people don’t want to be spoiled look away now While yes anti magic itself does not scale but neither does any other magic in the series it all based on the user example Noelle’s water magic is just that water magic and you could argue as she gets stronger it scales but that is her techniques and skills not the magic itself if you argue her getting Undine or leviathan are scaling then the same argument can be made with asta bonding with Liebe and unlocking union mode it gives more access and control over anti magic the same way Noelle gets more powerful with leviathan. Anti magic itself also doesn’t need to scale it is the ultimate counter to the whole power system of the verse if you are skilled enough you can nullify others and they realistically can’t counter you. For skills that asta learns I’m failing to recall any other than ki that don’t relate to anti magic. You have union mode which is combining with liebe to gain more power and control with anti magic, there Zetten I’m assuming this it the one you mean because it is derived from ki manipulation but it combines it with magic/anti magic so again it’s still focused on anti magic, the last new skill he showed was giving others anti magic to combine with their magic and again purely anti magic focused. Your point that asta doesn’t get access to the mana system while yes he never gets mana he does have basically equivalents or in a lot of cases the mana system advanced techniques are there so that others can keep up with how fast asta scales while he doesn’t have mana skin he can coat himself in anti magic which in reality is stronger since not only does it block the effects of outside magic it can seek it out and nullify it. Mana method and mana zone is mana system specific since there isn’t natural anti magic about to be manipulated but honestly these are more as techniques to power up others to be closer to Asta’s level. Honestly the whole idea of he didn’t have magic so he had to work hard to be noticed and keep up but as soon as he gets access to anti magic he goes from hard work over talent to chosen one real quick because gaining the ultimate counter to the powersystem that’s only weakness is physical attacks makes climbing the ranks fairly easy
@@jamesbryce8577 Thanks for the reply, I always love having someone to talk BC about! I'm partway through a rewatch with my brother, we're in the royal knight selection exam. I will say there are parts of this where I misspoke or forgot to consider something I think most of my thesis holds. But let me clarify. Mana/Magic scales naturally as a consequence of the power system itself But antimagic only 'scales' in power through the use of alternate techniques (ie hybridizing with alternate, parallel power systems), or achieving greater understanding/control of the power as it exists. Antimagic itself can only claim to have scaled once, and even here it is debatable. Furthermore, the mana magic power system does have many advantages that are not fully replicated by antimagic. 1) Grimoires Yes, Asta does have a grimoire but it provides basically none of the things it does for a mage with mana. Grimoires allow mages to use more complex magic, learn new spells, and generally facilitate the potential for seemingly unlimited growth ( the possible exception of someone like Rades since his Grimoire doesn't have any more empty pages...) Astas's grimoire basically only can hold swords which exist independently of the grimoire itself and are not magical constructs. Supporting evidence: the demon dweller sword was found in a dungeon and was presumably there for some time, other mages can pick up and swing the swords (but it is inadvisable for anyone other than Licht since they can't get rid of the antimagic properties...) The only example of a new sword that didn't already exist being created while Asta owned the Grimoire was the creation of the demon-slasher-katana. This could be compared to a new spell being created but this process would be very hard to replicate given our limited context. I don't think just throwing random swords at the Grimoire would give Asta a bunch of new swords with random new powers. 2) Mana Skin Mana Skin is reinforcement magic, it allows anyone with access to it to be more durable in combat. Spells have kinetic force in the world of Black Clover and are shrugged off by durability. Supporting Evidence: Because fire spells rarely immolate their targets, but they knock them back/over. Now you could argue this just puts mages on the Asta's level since his physical training has made him more durable than most mages, which is fair until you remember Yami exists. It is absolutely possible to be both physically durable and use reinforcement magic. Furthermore physical durability does have limits, while magical durability is only limited by your access to mana and skill at manipulating it, But good thing mana is a resource that can be exhausted, right...right!? 3. Mana Zone Nope! Mages can get even more mana by tapping into the natural mana around them! This means mages don't even need to have a large mana pool to keep casting spells if their mana control is good enough. Furthermore with more absolute control over environmental mana allows for even more precise control over mana allowing for even more complex spell effects. This contrasts the limited range of antimagic, while sure you can't really exhaust it as easily as you can mana, it is limited by Asta's physical stamina (since he has to swing a sword at you...). Now granted it is hyperbolic to say nobody ever runs out of mana, of course they do, but its important to consider the scale of complexity of spells in this conversation. 4. Special Properties This is the catch all for true magic, spirit magic etc. Without getting in the weeds I'll say that advanced mana methods can make spells more powerful. While not every mage is capable of every augment (Magna couldn't do true magic, you have to have the attribute of one of the four cardinal magic types to get chosen by a spirit...) This is an ability for growth and scaling that keeps mana as a power system highly favorable. I know I haven't touched on Asta's scaling much in this post yet but for the sake of not making this post longer I'll save it for later if you want to resume this conversation. But I did want to touch on your last statement on the theme's of Black Clover "Honestly the whole idea of he didn’t have magic so he had to work hard to be noticed and keep up but as soon as he gets access to anti magic he goes from hard work over talent to chosen one real quick because gaining the ultimate counter to the powersystem that’s only weakness is physical attacks makes climbing the ranks fairly easy" Here is the thing, Asta's ability to use antimagic is reliant on who and what he is. He's an anomaly of nature because he doesn't have mana, so only he can wield the antimagic swords. The effective use of those swords relies on training in sword fighting, and being strong enough to swing it. Hitting spells back using the Demon Dweller Sword is a feat of strength, if the force of the spell was too great to reflect he'd just end up tanking the spell. He did get some early wins because people didn't know about antimagic, and that's actually...pretty realistic. This power is unnatural (it comes from devils) no mage would be prepared to fight it without knowing about it beforehand. While some of the text of the manga supports it, the idea that Asta is only weak to physical attacks is overstated. While there is a hard work vs talent theme running through Black Clover ( especially represented in the Asta vs Yuno rivalry,) I think Black Clover is more about leveraging what you have to achieve great things, even if nearly everyone doubts you. As the Wizard King tells us, the key to becoming the king is merit. Have a great day and never give up!
@@KDPhilosophy I enjoy these talks as well it is interesting to see other peoples takes on the inner workings of these systems. For the grimoire aspect asta’s grimoire is an interesting thing because it was originally Licht as well as the swords so the origin of the swords is one of two options. One they are physical constructs from his magic or two they were swords originally swords outside of the grimoire and added to the grimoire the same way yami’s was. I think the second is more likely which means that the grimoire acts very similar for asta and licht only differences is asta can’t make mana constructed swords like licht can but each swords power is likely the same as when licht had it since we see him use demon dweller to absorb Yunos magic so it’s not a stretch to believe demon slayer could repel and demon destroyer purify if this is true it could make the reflecting attacks less of a strength feat since the sword repels with the flat side anyways. For the magic system and scaling stuff I think that both systems scale in similar means the only main difference is mana can be accessed though natural means while anti magic can’t. New spells are just increased control leading to new techniques which asta does naturally anyway just from getting stronger and training. Asta can gain more access to his power through connection with liebe similar to some have access to elemental spirits. Asta using ki is a way to boost his reflexes and senses and anyone could learn it realistically. To replace nature mana asta instead can extend his anti magic to others. My point is that scaling is based on the individuals access and control of their power they work the same so either both scale or neither do. My gripe with Asta and the whole hard work vs talent thing is something shared with a lot of the stereotype in anime where they try to say it’s hard work that put the character where he is but in reality it’s because he is special. Yes Asta worked hard to be where he is no one can deny it but if he wasn’t born without magic and given access to the grimoire with anti magic he would still be nobody they try and contrast it with Yuno but they both are special and chosen ones say asta was just another poor orphan who could use magic but it’s limited would max out at about magna level strong enough to probably struggle a win from a devil host but not even close to Asta and yuno. At the point in the manga now Lucius is only threatened by two characters Asta and Yuno and for asta it’s not wow this kid worked so hard he is crazy strong it’s he is the only one that can wield anti magic similar to Asta being acknowledged yes people see how hard he worked but they need him because he is basically the only one able to do anything to the enemy and even the way they try to make others relevant needs Asta to give them anti magic. end of the day his hard work means nothing without anti magic so he ends up being a chosen one just like Yuno though they lay it on real strong with Yuno to distract you the guy has 2 top tier grimoires is blessed by the wind spirit is a royal himself while also hosting the reincarnation to the child of a royal and leader of the elves he takes the chosen one to another level but in reality he needs that much special to compete with anti magic otherwise the captain could be on their level
I haven't watched or read black clover so I can only go off what you said here.
The important thing about this case seems to be that he is limited, he has an incredibly powerful ability buy it is highly limited in how he can use it, OPness comes when you are either way stronger then everyone else or you counter everyone else too perfectly. Every character should have a weakness to exploit, it is perhaps super common in series like isekais where the main character is often too strong to ever be challenged and a story can become less about the characters struggling to achieve their goals and more about wish fulfilment. so many of the best parts of a fight scene, the characters analyzing one another, them trading abilities and using their skills in interesting ways to counter each other, the tension, etc, just go completely out the window when the MC is too OP. If you want your fights to be interesting, every ability should have a downside and if that downside is something like "it also hurts the user" then it noticeably and preferably visibly hurt the user in a way that actually affects the narrative.
one thing I have always found annoying is when downsides are stated only to not be actually utilized:
It's like the way in Naruto every ability has a chakra limit but it doesn't matter because characters never actually risk running out of chakra because it only runs out when the plot says its time too. Or the curse mark, which supposedly damages both the mind and body of the user but sasuke is never tired after using it, has no long term damages despite using it every fight and had no problem stabbing orochi in the back first depite the fact that the mark was supposed to make him subservient to orochi.
The hurts the usser part i use it in My story. Since the Magic got a biological part on it (an alternative circulatory system, filled with Magic energy) You can use Magic more powerful than your límit, but it Would be like forcing your body to run 10KM when You only can run 7. It Will hurt and probably You won't be able to move that much a few days after. In the worst situation, You can Even lose the ability to use magic
Keep watching. I promise it gets even more interesting
I agree that at where you are he is not really op but it does become so very very fast.
By the point the anime gets to asta himself isn’t fully considered op but anti magic definitely is where some enemies can’t be damaged without it.
At the point where the manga is asta is most definitely op where if he went up against any character other than the big bad he would likely beat them with little issue if he went all out and by end point of manga practically all enemies need anti magic to even damage seriously or being yuno and have all the hax he gets by end of series to compete
People always turning into darn diety slayers and what not
It's worth noting that this is NOT generally a result of antimagic itself scaling or becoming more powerful but rather antimagic being combined with other parallel power systems/techniques that also happen to augment Asta's fighting style or abilities. I can't go too deeply since it would constitute spoilers, but I'll just say learning ki was only the first time Asta got access to skills outside antimagic (and the premise of the series is consistent in that Asta does not get access to the boons of the mana power system at all.)
@@KDPhilosophy I’m going to talk about manga spoilers in this post so if people don’t want to be spoiled look away now
While yes anti magic itself does not scale but neither does any other magic in the series it all based on the user example Noelle’s water magic is just that water magic and you could argue as she gets stronger it scales but that is her techniques and skills not the magic itself if you argue her getting Undine or leviathan are scaling then the same argument can be made with asta bonding with Liebe and unlocking union mode it gives more access and control over anti magic the same way Noelle gets more powerful with leviathan.
Anti magic itself also doesn’t need to scale it is the ultimate counter to the whole power system of the verse if you are skilled enough you can nullify others and they realistically can’t counter you.
For skills that asta learns I’m failing to recall any other than ki that don’t relate to anti magic. You have union mode which is combining with liebe to gain more power and control with anti magic, there Zetten I’m assuming this it the one you mean because it is derived from ki manipulation but it combines it with magic/anti magic so again it’s still focused on anti magic, the last new skill he showed was giving others anti magic to combine with their magic and again purely anti magic focused.
Your point that asta doesn’t get access to the mana system while yes he never gets mana he does have basically equivalents or in a lot of cases the mana system advanced techniques are there so that others can keep up with how fast asta scales while he doesn’t have mana skin he can coat himself in anti magic which in reality is stronger since not only does it block the effects of outside magic it can seek it out and nullify it. Mana method and mana zone is mana system specific since there isn’t natural anti magic about to be manipulated but honestly these are more as techniques to power up others to be closer to Asta’s level.
Honestly the whole idea of he didn’t have magic so he had to work hard to be noticed and keep up but as soon as he gets access to anti magic he goes from hard work over talent to chosen one real quick because gaining the ultimate counter to the powersystem that’s only weakness is physical attacks makes climbing the ranks fairly easy
@@jamesbryce8577 Thanks for the reply, I always love having someone to talk BC about! I'm partway through a rewatch with my brother, we're in the royal knight selection exam. I will say there are parts of this where I misspoke or forgot to consider something I think most of my thesis holds. But let me clarify.
Mana/Magic scales naturally as a consequence of the power system itself But antimagic only 'scales' in power through the use of alternate techniques (ie hybridizing with alternate, parallel power systems), or achieving greater understanding/control of the power as it exists. Antimagic itself can only claim to have scaled once, and even here it is debatable. Furthermore, the mana magic power system does have many advantages that are not fully replicated by antimagic.
1) Grimoires
Yes, Asta does have a grimoire but it provides basically none of the things it does for a mage with mana. Grimoires allow mages to use more complex magic, learn new spells, and generally facilitate the potential for seemingly unlimited growth ( the possible exception of someone like Rades since his Grimoire doesn't have any more empty pages...) Astas's grimoire basically only can hold swords which exist independently of the grimoire itself and are not magical constructs. Supporting evidence: the demon dweller sword was found in a dungeon and was presumably there for some time, other mages can pick up and swing the swords (but it is inadvisable for anyone other than Licht since they can't get rid of the antimagic properties...)
The only example of a new sword that didn't already exist being created while Asta owned the Grimoire was the creation of the demon-slasher-katana. This could be compared to a new spell being created but this process would be very hard to replicate given our limited context. I don't think just throwing random swords at the Grimoire would give Asta a bunch of new swords with random new powers.
2) Mana Skin
Mana Skin is reinforcement magic, it allows anyone with access to it to be more durable in combat. Spells have kinetic force in the world of Black Clover and are shrugged off by durability. Supporting Evidence: Because fire spells rarely immolate their targets, but they knock them back/over. Now you could argue this just puts mages on the Asta's level since his physical training has made him more durable than most mages, which is fair until you remember Yami exists. It is absolutely possible to be both physically durable and use reinforcement magic. Furthermore physical durability does have limits, while magical durability is only limited by your access to mana and skill at manipulating it, But good thing mana is a resource that can be exhausted, right...right!?
3. Mana Zone
Nope! Mages can get even more mana by tapping into the natural mana around them! This means mages don't even need to have a large mana pool to keep casting spells if their mana control is good enough. Furthermore with more absolute control over environmental mana allows for even more precise control over mana allowing for even more complex spell effects. This contrasts the limited range of antimagic, while sure you can't really exhaust it as easily as you can mana, it is limited by Asta's physical stamina (since he has to swing a sword at you...). Now granted it is hyperbolic to say nobody ever runs out of mana, of course they do, but its important to consider the scale of complexity of spells in this conversation.
4. Special Properties
This is the catch all for true magic, spirit magic etc. Without getting in the weeds I'll say that advanced mana methods can make spells more powerful. While not every mage is capable of every augment (Magna couldn't do true magic, you have to have the attribute of one of the four cardinal magic types to get chosen by a spirit...) This is an ability for growth and scaling that keeps mana as a power system highly favorable.
I know I haven't touched on Asta's scaling much in this post yet but for the sake of not making this post longer I'll save it for later if you want to resume this conversation. But I did want to touch on your last statement on the theme's of Black Clover
"Honestly the whole idea of he didn’t have magic so he had to work hard to be noticed and keep up but as soon as he gets access to anti magic he goes from hard work over talent to chosen one real quick because gaining the ultimate counter to the powersystem that’s only weakness is physical attacks makes climbing the ranks fairly easy"
Here is the thing, Asta's ability to use antimagic is reliant on who and what he is. He's an anomaly of nature because he doesn't have mana, so only he can wield the antimagic swords. The effective use of those swords relies on training in sword fighting, and being strong enough to swing it. Hitting spells back using the Demon Dweller Sword is a feat of strength, if the force of the spell was too great to reflect he'd just end up tanking the spell. He did get some early wins because people didn't know about antimagic, and that's actually...pretty realistic. This power is unnatural (it comes from devils) no mage would be prepared to fight it without knowing about it beforehand. While some of the text of the manga supports it, the idea that Asta is only weak to physical attacks is overstated. While there is a hard work vs talent theme running through Black Clover ( especially represented in the Asta vs Yuno rivalry,) I think Black Clover is more about leveraging what you have to achieve great things, even if nearly everyone doubts you. As the Wizard King tells us, the key to becoming the king is merit.
Have a great day and never give up!
@@KDPhilosophy I enjoy these talks as well it is interesting to see other peoples takes on the inner workings of these systems.
For the grimoire aspect asta’s grimoire is an interesting thing because it was originally Licht as well as the swords so the origin of the swords is one of two options. One they are physical constructs from his magic or two they were swords originally swords outside of the grimoire and added to the grimoire the same way yami’s was. I think the second is more likely which means that the grimoire acts very similar for asta and licht only differences is asta can’t make mana constructed swords like licht can but each swords power is likely the same as when licht had it since we see him use demon dweller to absorb Yunos magic so it’s not a stretch to believe demon slayer could repel and demon destroyer purify if this is true it could make the reflecting attacks less of a strength feat since the sword repels with the flat side anyways.
For the magic system and scaling stuff I think that both systems scale in similar means the only main difference is mana can be accessed though natural means while anti magic can’t. New spells are just increased control leading to new techniques which asta does naturally anyway just from getting stronger and training. Asta can gain more access to his power through connection with liebe similar to some have access to elemental spirits. Asta using ki is a way to boost his reflexes and senses and anyone could learn it realistically. To replace nature mana asta instead can extend his anti magic to others. My point is that scaling is based on the individuals access and control of their power they work the same so either both scale or neither do.
My gripe with Asta and the whole hard work vs talent thing is something shared with a lot of the stereotype in anime where they try to say it’s hard work that put the character where he is but in reality it’s because he is special. Yes Asta worked hard to be where he is no one can deny it but if he wasn’t born without magic and given access to the grimoire with anti magic he would still be nobody they try and contrast it with Yuno but they both are special and chosen ones say asta was just another poor orphan who could use magic but it’s limited would max out at about magna level strong enough to probably struggle a win from a devil host but not even close to Asta and yuno. At the point in the manga now Lucius is only threatened by two characters Asta and Yuno and for asta it’s not wow this kid worked so hard he is crazy strong it’s he is the only one that can wield anti magic similar to Asta being acknowledged yes people see how hard he worked but they need him because he is basically the only one able to do anything to the enemy and even the way they try to make others relevant needs Asta to give them anti magic. end of the day his hard work means nothing without anti magic so he ends up being a chosen one just like Yuno though they lay it on real strong with Yuno to distract you the guy has 2 top tier grimoires is blessed by the wind spirit is a royal himself while also hosting the reincarnation to the child of a royal and leader of the elves he takes the chosen one to another level but in reality he needs that much special to compete with anti magic otherwise the captain could be on their level
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