The Problem of Evil for Non-Theists with Yujin Nagasawa

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  • Опубліковано 2 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 13

  • @jtakayamaukon
    @jtakayamaukon 2 місяці тому +1

    You guys are awesome!! Keep up the great work, man!

  • @Chidds
    @Chidds Місяць тому +2

    The problem of evil (/suffering) is a philosophical challenge to certain forms of theism where there is a disconnect between expectation and reality. I'm not understanding how the problem translates to non-theism. Even if non-theists are optimistic, that concerns hope not expectation. As for coping with suffering, that is not a philosophical problem.

    • @MrPeaceGuy54
      @MrPeaceGuy54 Місяць тому +1

      I think that his point is that atheists cannot justify the view that life is good. This can have major implications for philosophical topics like the ethics of procreation and even continuing life (if it doesn't have adequate positive value).

    • @Chidds
      @Chidds Місяць тому

      @@MrPeaceGuy54 Non-theists can ground value. Perhaps not anything objective, but subjective values still have credence when aligned with the group. Humans are a social species, and cultural values are often imprinted from an early age and help to form our identity, which is not easily undone.

    • @MrPeaceGuy54
      @MrPeaceGuy54 Місяць тому

      @@Chidds I wouldn't say that non-theists cannot have objective value even though I am a theist myself (Hindu). Dr Harris' framework of well-being is quite attractive to me. The goodness and badness of certain experiences and the natural consequences that flow from the recognition of this fact in terms of duties is something worth considering.
      The point of Dr Nagasawa is that the non-theist, in spite of cultural and ideological diversity, will have to come to the conclusion that reality is mostly bad, which would, assuming that they aren't nihilists of the most extreme kind, necessitate that they view life negatively and cease reproduction and perhaps even question how far life should be continued. The second question may be relevant even for a nihilist as that concerns an individual good that is inescapable as opposed to the common good. Personally, I do think that life does have immense beauty and good to justify its existence, but the perspective Dr Nagasawa has is actually promoted by pessimists like Schopenhauer.

    • @Chidds
      @Chidds Місяць тому

      @@MrPeaceGuy54 Why must a non-theist view life negatively? As you point out, that is a pessimistic view. For a non-theist life is finite. Therefore, extremely valuable. What the pessimist misses is that humans are not primarily driven by reason. We are biological and pleasure-seeking. We take big risks for seemingly insignificant rewards.

    • @MrPeaceGuy54
      @MrPeaceGuy54 Місяць тому +1

      @@Chidds Yes, they don't have to (in my view). I am only explaining the point of the argument made in the video. The pessimistic non-theist would say that those risks are irrational and driven by blind biological desires that are contrary to our own good. The pleasure that we seek cannot truly be obtained and is outweighed by the bad. It's just that our optimism bias prevents us from seeing the truth. Non-theists are of many kinds. Optimistic ones would obviously not view life negatively. However, pessimistic ones would say that this short and rare life isn't short and rare enough. People like Schopenhauer, Mr Ligotti, and Dr Benatar (all of them non-theists) believe that life is an imposition and mostly negative as it contains more suffering than happiness. They would generally also say that not existing harms nobody, but creating people does cause immense harm. Some extreme pessimistic atheists I've talked with have even compared procreation with murder.
      I am a theist, but I don't think that atheism necessarily leads to such a viewpoint. These arguments are also not air-tight. Firstly, many people can find immeasurable joy in their life in the midst of terrible pain. This is what people like Helen Keller proved. Secondly, if the absence of suffering can be good even if it benefits nobody, the lack of happiness can be bad, even if someone isn't experiencing harm because of their lack of existence. Thirdly, life can also be seen as a gift that we can be grateful for having even though we couldn't have asked for it. And fourth, even if we disregard the negativity bias all of us have (don't we tend to focus more negative news stories?), is it really that easy to claim that most of us are deeply wrong about our own experiences? Additionally, is it easy to measure and set a good criteria for this bias that doesn't turn into a view that indirectly promotes pessimism by downplaying the good?
      My attempt was merely to show where Dr Nagasawa's argument is coming from. It definitely has its place in academia. Obviously, as you would expect, it isn't particularly popular.
      Anyway, I hope that you will have a good day!

  • @vegana13
    @vegana13 26 днів тому

    to me , it’s as though i had lost three CHILDREN : i lost 3 rabbits in three days ! i'm abominable sinner, that's why : i wish i had never existed ! i don't want to exist ever since they went to Heaven : i'm a monster : i feel guilty: i don't see the point of living without rabbits : i lost the three loves of my life : my progenitors won't adopt bunnies : life without bunnies, oh no, HORRIBLE !!! wha a sadness to not have bunnies ! i miss them ! i want them to be with me ! the worst is yet to come : now the r and d say they're going to DESTROY , MURDER my hens and dog: again because of my infame sins : oh NO, NO:: Maker , have mercy on my hens !!!! it's depressing losing your animals !! my rabbits and animals are my sole reason to live i think : i think i ain't got nothing else, no one else : empty house without rabbits :

    room, living- room, therasse without caytlin, amanda and crystal my three rabbits : i think i should be in hell and they should be on the earth !! they were INNOCENT, they have NOT sinned !!! I have sinned !!! i'm the one who did bad stuff against the Maker and the curse went on my animals, not on me ?? i feel like my animals got PUNISHED , not me : i've been unjust, not the Maker: he's just : i wish i had never done all these abominations so that crystal, amanda and caytlin would be alive: i want to see you, pet you, look at your beautiful eyes, my fauve de bourgogne rabbit, my mini rabbit and my lop ears rabbit but i can't: i want to hug you, kiss you, i can't: i feel like i'm a zombie without my bunnies : i'm worried about my hens and doggy: WOW !!! the terrible revelations messages from the r and d for my hens and dogs:

    scary, HORROR !!!! i think i should ve never existed if i destroy all my loved ones with my sins, causing their death , illness, suffering : horrible things the r and d say they're gonna do to my animals very soon : i want to kick the bucket : i think i should've never existed : everytime i sin strongly, terribly, one or several of my animals die : when will the Maker chastise ME and not my animals ?? the day i don't have animals no more ..... / i want animals !!!!! more than all things!!! i think the animals are the SOLE stuff i want !!!! i think i can NEVER be happy if i don't have animals !!!!

    i think that Maker does not chastise me but my animals : i mean he takes away from you the most important, the most valuable thing you think you have : to me, the most IMPORTANT thing are my animals: that's the reason why when i do something ultra bad, the Maker makes pass away one or several of my animals : this time it was the WORST SIN i've ever made ?? for it was not one or two animals , but THREE animals in three days: no wonder why r had said at the same time or simultaneously : i get why they said that : it meant three DEATHS , three SICKNESS at the same time : three sick animals FOR NO REASON , SUPERNATURALLY, at the same time :

    on top of that, the r said 3 weeks : now one week has passed : what ? they didn't say the whole say : two weeks for what ?? the DEATH of my hens , or dogs, burned live jennifer ( hen ), fighting to death chelby, brianna and brittany ( hens ) ? shortly after, kylie can't pee and passes away ( dog ) : oh NO , if only i had never been , if only i had never had a life !!!! all this is two or three weeks or a bit more ???? i want to cease living !!!! they must have suffered HORRIBLY !!! how caytlin suddenly screamed , of pain probably, ultra loudly : SCARY !!! and a day after, how amanda would scream, again and again, having convulsions , moving his head ultra fast , putting it ultra on the back, again and again, doing little screams again and again, his legs so hard, so tense, mega extended, wow, he would move and move :

    oh poor him ! all this because of my sins ! HORRIBLE seeing this !!!! i wish it had been me , not him ! increible that amanda died one hour after i think, not right away when all this was happening : and then putting his body normal, then moving his body again , his legs mega fast, wow : and crystal couldn’t put his head normal, he was so weak : he would simply put his head on the floor, powerless, without strength : all this because of my sins : farewell everyone ! i can't take it no more : thanks for all

    i need to seek the help of Maker and born again christians : but even if i beg pastors to pray for me to stop sinning, for me to stop massacring every single beloved animal i adopt , i CAN NOT stop sinning : i think i'm like these high level murderers: all i do is destroy : that's why i think i deserve to die : i think i MUST de , for if i carry on living and i adopt animals, they will all DIE as newborn animals, i'm sure: i sin so much , so terribly, that they wouldn't last not even one week, poor them !

    their destiny would have been different if they had been adopted by someone who is NOT a monstrous sinner unlike me : they would 've lived 10 years, not 2 and 1 year, my adored bunnies : these bunnies were EVERYTHING to me : these hens and dog are MY ONLY loved ones : my only reason to be : or i can live for the rest of my life not adopting any animal but what a SAD life without any animal , too DEPRESSING, oh no, i think i CAN NOT live without animals :
    i'd be like a zombie, always depressed and sad : i think i must sacrifice myself for my animals : anyway, i don't want to live since the Maker wants me to become his and get pregnant and have sexual intercourse and i'm virgin, with phobia of sexual intercourse : i'm anti pregnancy and anti sexual intercourse : thus, since this is very soon according to the messages from d and r , in october and december 2024, i think all i have left to do is join the majority ( die ) : what else can i do ?

    hell is horrible : wow, poor persons there !!! i don't want to get devoured by 15 cm worms, spiders: i don't want to BURN, you can't breath in there: there's no water, you're TOO THIRSTY : but i DESERVE hell : i've been TOO WICKED to animals and men all my life : a vegan that murders all my animals , wow, false vegan i suppose !!!!!! to me , these animals ARE MY CHILDREN, my BABIES !!!!!! i DO NOT want to destroy the destiny, DESTROY the destiny, of holy little animals that i ADORE !!!! poor little dogs !!! my porgenitor is about to adopt two dogs: OH WOW, i'm too afraid for them poor little things , adorable little angels !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    i CAN NOT get rid of my sins !!! hatred, wrath, evil thoughts, evil wishes : i beg you Maker, curse me, NOT my animals and future animals !!! i beg you Maker, destroy ME, NOT my animal angels !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i think i should not adopt any animal but just go see animals in ethical places such as pedagogic farms , hoping that they treat animals well there : but it's NOT the same than living with the animals, and being able to pet them, kiss them, see them, look at their beautiful faces and bodies and eyes, hugg them , whenever you like : i don’t see the point of living without animals and rabbits : i think that i see the point of living SOLELY with animals and rabbits : why living if you don’t have animals or bunnies ?? i think the only reason why i should get up in the morning is my animals and rabbits if i had some : i think i do NOT find any meaning in life ever since caytlin, crystal and amanda passed away : i think i can NOT find any meaning in life without animals and rabbits : i don’t want to do anyting ever since they went away : i don’t want to eat : i don’t want to exist : i don’t want to adopt and then die : if i adopt 5 animals = the 5 die : if i adopt 3 animals = the 3 die : if i adopt 10 animals = the 10 die : STOP !!! i don’t want to do this : this tourments me : i’m horrified : all this agony of my animals, all these deaths, because of my sins : WOW !!!! and yet i desperetedly wish to adopt PLENTY of animals !!! i think i’ve lost all will to live ever since my rabbits went to Heaven : i think i’m like a zombie now : for the joy to come back, the life to come back, for me to feel alive again, i NEED rabbits : but not for them to die 4 days after i had them : !!!!!! NOOOOO !!!! r said in my head : attack on the hens : they have one- two weeks left to live ?? what do i do ?? then my dog when , in 3-4 weeks ?? zero animal mega soon ??!!! in less than 30 days, i go from having 5 animals to 0 animal ??!!??!!??!! : i think life without animals is HORRIBLE, i think it’s NOT life at all : !!!!!

    i don’t see the point in living if i do not have animals or rabbits : i think i don’t see the point in doing anything ever since my rabbits left me : what’s the point in existing if it’s without animals or bunnies ?? i think i see no point in doing nothing anymore ever since i lost my rabbits : i think that my only reason to live was my animals : i think that i ‘ve lost everything : i think that my life is MEANINGLESS without my bunnies and animals : i think i am fed up with this life without rabbits : i don’t want to live any longer , without animals or rabbits : i just wanted to make my rabbits happy : i just want to give happiness to rabbits : but i DO NOT want to murder any animal anymore !!!! i think i’ve lost interest in everything : i think i don’t enjoy anything anymore : i think i force myself to do everything now : i think i can’t be interested in anything any longer : i don’t know why i remain alive : i think i do not want to remain alive : i just force myself to do all the things a human daily do such as eating, brushing my teeth, going to the toilet, taking a shower , ect : i think that nothing in the world is more important to me than animals : i wish it hadn't happen : i think the worst is living without rabbits for the rest of my life , for my progenitor won't give me rabbits : what a depressing life i'm going to have without my rabbits and without rabbits

  • @OrlandoQuentin-f1y
    @OrlandoQuentin-f1y Місяць тому

    Garcia Shirley Thomas Helen Williams Larry

  • @atheist_joseph_vina
    @atheist_joseph_vina 13 днів тому

    Presuppositions, ahoy! The Ontological Arguments are not good arguments for the existence of any god. You literally have to presuppose God exists prior to hearing the Ontological arguments to conclude God is involved.

  • @atheist_joseph_vina
    @atheist_joseph_vina 13 днів тому

    Is this guy an actual PhD and confusing the Problem of Suffering with the Problem of Evil? Is this an actual PhD who's never heard of Evolutionary Psychology?

  • @paskal007r
    @paskal007r Місяць тому

    So, let me get this straight: the type of naturalist to which the problem of suffering applies is this "optimist" type, which doesn't really have a reason to be an "optimist" is kind of an assumed starting point, so an irrational hypothesis, and only to that type of naturalist the problem of suffering would apply. Also, that type of naturalist would be at a "disadvantage" in dealing with this problem because of a smaller ontology, but it's not like you can prove that a bigger ontology actually solves said issue. And therefore god? Because of a non-existent advantage on an irrational demographic?
    Mate, this is ludicrous nonsense.