Buffy The Vampire Slayer 7x17 - "Lies My Parents Told Me" Reaction
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- Team Spike all the way soz not soz
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Morality or whatever, Spike remains my favorite character in the series after all these years due to his complexity.
Nobody in Buffy is perfect, except maybe Tara.
And Joss murdered the fuck out of her...
Oz is a really close one tho.
@@Shadowman4710 Tara was supposed to be brought back as a reward to Willow, but Amber Benson was unavailable for the final episode.
Pretty sure she can’t spell on her friends just so she could avoid them seeing her as a demon (even though that was total crap)
@@mayadargeon2172 Oz was close until Veruca
Giles always hated Spike, but he, during those times mentioned, thought that he was harmless or helpful to them. Now he believes that Spike is a weakness or a distraction for Buffy in the coming war. Buffy and Giles both are All about winning the war. They just have different ideas of what it will take. Buffy believes she needs Spike to be able to win, and Giles believes that Buffy's feelings for Spike are a liability.
Giles also sees Spike as more of a liability to them than an asset... not just for Buffy's feelings for him but because 1) no chip = dangerous old Spike! 2) he could easily be controlled by the first. Also, Giles sees Spike's case as another 'special vampire case' much like with Angel who was every bit capable of killing them. Spike having a chip rendered him harmless to them but he was still considered useful, whereas, having no chip, it was like having a monster run loose... even with a soul. Lastly, I think this whole thing is also triggering Giles. He doesn't want Buffy to lose sight of their mission all because of another Vampire with a Soul Who Could Still Turn Evil lol or that he's scared of losing Buffy and need her to be more focused especially when she has to lead the Potentials. Also, he's scared that Spike might just kill him if he pushed the right buttons lol
spike and buffy are right in this situation. woods (although understandable) needed to move the fuck on and giles needed to wake up the fuck up and realize how much of an asset spike was and that he can’t always make decisions for buffy. she is the slayer and it’s her choice who she wants around her.
@@lgbtorion but does Giles hate Spike for another reason for example it was never mentioned in the series or us buffy comics that Giles knew what Spike tried to do with buffy in the bathroom when he was Without a soul I know this is not a very pleasant thing to remember I love Spike is also one of my most favorite characters in the series but Giles created buffy as if he were his daughter the way he is of course but it was never shown in the series what he thought of Spike
@ares I'd say before the end of this episode you are wrong. While the trigger was still active Spike could be activated at any time killing everyone in that house. Yes Spike was a powerful asset but imagine him getting activated while with Willow and just snapping her neck. I don't think Giles was upset about Buffy keeping Spike around, I think he was upset that she was keeping him free and unsupervised before he was safe. And I do kinda agree with him, it was moronic for Buffy to free Spike while The First could take control at any time.
@@ervylondawid7620 He hated Spike long before Seeing red
To me, Spike was always the greatest, even before he got a soul. The moment he became great was when he told Buffy that with all slayers, he'd kill them at their weakest, when they were hoping for death. At that moment, he would grant their wish. Shortly after Buffy and Joyce found out about her mother's cancer, Buffy had a breakdown moment where she went outside on her back patio. Spike showed up with a shotgun to kill Buffy, but when he saw her at her weakest, at a moment where Buffy would've let Spike kill her, Spike instead puts the shotgun down and comforts Buffy. It was a sweet moment and showed tremendous character development.
Spike had a soul before he had a soul. Even look at how Spike was after he became a vampire. He was still sweet, until he saw the evil of his mother, then he went dark after having to kill her. Spike was always pure.
He's the champion ;-)
I LOVE this comment
Him putting down his gum showed he had true feelings for Buffy..
Buffy is so smart. She really understands that what's happened to Spike and what he's become is a part of a greater plan. She truly sees the big picture. It also makes complete sense that her friends only see her defending her ex boyfriend who she's still into. I can see why they doubt her objectivity. Great writing to juxtapose those realities.
Honestly in the Principles place i'd kill Spike to.
Glad he didnt die,
but makes sense why anyone would want to kill him.
Yeah, I mean, it'd be understandable just on the basis of Spike killing his mom, but Spike was killing people as recent as what, a few weeks before this ep? I totally get where he's coming from.
i agree. people who blindly defend spike and excuse all his actions are ridiculous. of course principal wood should want him dead after what he did.
@@dancingjoy0788 Vampire, Slayer. Vampire kills Slayer. Or vice versa. Stupid vendetta Wood should know the way it goes simple as that. And he wasn't killing people WILLINGLY he was under the control of the First DUHHHHHHHHH
I have mixed opinions. I agree that Buffy's view towards Spike is clouded, but I also agree with Buffy that with The First's plans at it's tipping point we don't have time for vendettas. Spike is a key asset, especially with Angel in LA dealing with his own problems. And with The First's servants being Human, Spike being able to hurt them without being incredible amounts of pain is a good thing. But I understand why Wood was blinded.
True but Wood wanting to kill Spike for this reason, and of all times to do it he picks the precipice of chaos. Vengeance never solves anything, and what Buffy said to him nailed exactly why Wood's mother's death was inevitable. Slayer's in an odd way want to die. Their entire purpose is to be killed or kill as many evil thing's as possible. Wood was living in a fantasy believing that his mother loved him more than the mission.
One of the things I love about this is that Buffy stands by Spike, She knows what he's been through and how he feels and he sticks by him through and through. I hate her fighting with giles though that always made me sad.
Agree
the best episode of the season. and this is why Spike is the greatest character Joss Whedon ever created, def the best redemption arc of all time
#FACTS FACTS
Joss isn't really responsible for Spike, Joss hated Spike. He was talked into the character by the writers, who were responsible for much of Spike's development, and the show's network told him he had to keep the character.
I totally agree with what you said. A lot of the people who don't understand why Buffy is forgiving of Spike don't seem to recall that she also doesn't hold Angel responsible for anything Angelus does. Even unsouled Spike was a much better man by the end than Angelus ever was, and when Spike realized he could never be a real man that could never harm Buffy, he fought to get his soul. Spike committed horrible acts, and so did Angelus. Angel isn't responsible for Angelus, souled Spike isn't for the old Spike.
PREACH! Why don’t MORE ppl understand this?…
Fun fact: in the script, Gilles confesses that he killed Ben as an example of what he is willing to do to save the world. I don't know if it was filmed and cut or not.
It was filmed but cut before broadcast. As far as i know without a clear reason. Maybe because of time constraints.
@@CarlosHuiskens Can it be seen anywhere?
Unless its not on youtube or a bonus feature on the DVD i wouldn't know.
@@CarlosHuiskens I don't think the dvds have deleted scenes but this one sounds cool.
Hmm.. I doubt this. And no it's not on the DVDs or the commentary. Why would he tell anyone that it's pointless to this storyline
I really hated Giles here. He left sunnydale because he felt he was holding buffy back from being an adult but when she does, he goes behind her back because he doesn't agree with her decisions.
Giles was right clearly
Giles is 110% right in his actions here Buffy is massively in the wrong
@@richardwani2803 right because it’s not like spike ever saved Giles life…oh wait
How was Giles right? Spike deactivated the trigger himself.
The way I see it is, if they had killed Spike, the world would have ended.
1. Giles always hated Spike
2. Giles has seen enough people with souls commit atrocities to know that simply having a soul does not mean that person is a good person.
3. Spike has been killing people. He would have tried in the basement if he weren’t chained up
Spike has a soul. Angel got a pass/forgiven. It's double standards.
So Angel gets a pass?
Libby Ashe 1. Re: my second point.
2. No he absolutely did not. Giles and Xander never forgave him
3. Spike was just killing people, while he had a soul
@@erauprcwa he didn't get a pass from Giles right away, remember "Amends"?
ERAUPRCWA no, there’s an entire show all about Angel trying to make amends for the awful things he did as Angelus. He didn’t go on a killing spree after he got his soul. And he moved away from Sunnydale because of all the terrible things Angelus did there
The show plays it off as different cuz they want to have their cake and eat it too if you look at who they were before they had their souls Liam had very little Ambitions or morals for the demon to take hold where is Spike who's a hopeless romantic and still kept part of his personality when the demon took hold .... remember how the judge in season two referred two spike and dru as reeking with Humanity where is Angelus had no Humanity to speak of ...... but i believe spike with a soul should NOT be held accountable for soulless spike
and the big difference between the two, Liam and William (lol which ironically, is NOT a whole lot in the name department 🤣) is that the first one was deliberately rebelling against his own father before he turned into a vampire and the moment he turned into one, he was murderous in all accounts, whereas, the second one was completely innocent and very tender and loving to the one person he held dear in his heart, his own mother. When he was turned into a vampire, he still cared for her and loved her but foolishly believed that he could cure her by siring her. William's transition to Spike was a sad one (and sickening at the same time to see how twisted and distorted her mother was when she became a vampire) but it wasn't a violent brutal one where unlike Liam's transition to Angelus who killed his family.
@@RitsychServare i agree with you Angel as Liam as a mortal had a lot of anger and resentment and frustration towards his father and the fact he could never gain his approval so he begins to act out by drinking partying and having one nigh night stand with different women and in a sense became the thing his dad always said he would be. It's like constantly being told by your wife husband girlfriend Boyfriend you are a loser and you will never amount to anything else so Liam became that person becuse of his dads low opinion of him so he was a a man who stopped caring or trying but he was far from evil. so when Darla turned him the demon aspect was more dominant becuse there was nothing to balance the demon out no strong characteristics just someone who stopped caring. And had a lot of frustrations and. Angel Frist action as a vampire was to kill his entire village in Ireland including his mom dad and at last his father. Darla tells him his fathers lack of approval will haunt him as an immortal. By contrast Spike as William Pratt was a sensitive passionate very loyal man who was very close with his mom and took care of her when she got sick with TB and wanted to turn her to cure her from her TB he even tells Cecily Underwood that girl he had a crush on I know I'm a bad poet but I'm a good man and has less baggage than Angel as a human and had a good relationship with his mom
@@TheAaronChand yes, and it's no surprise that Liam turned out to be an evil vampire, Angelus. I think the moment he gained back his soul, there's still that part of Angel, Liam, who regretted all the bad things he's done in which he had no control of because of the devil that took over. Also, in contrast to Spike, who still retained part of William's characteristics when it came to Drusilla and he was still capable of 'helping' Buffy (although it was more for selfish reasons) defeat Angelus. And it's no surprise that when it came to Joyce, he actually bonded with her even for just a short time all because he was so close to his own mother. Then the moment he lost her (when he had no choice but to kill her as a vampire), he pretty much lost it, lost his "innocence" and turned evil.
@@RitsychServare Liam was not evil he was a far cry from Angelous Liam may have been a drunk womanizer who had a lot of problems with his dad and partied and gave into drinking and fighting and partying and using women for sex but that's hardly evil behavior he did those things becuse of his dads low expectations that he will never amount to anything else it's the same thing in real life when you feel powerless or that you cant change why bother attitude you just give in wether its drugs smoking.
or in Liam case drinking and fighting partying and a part of that was maybe to rebal against his dad also he was 26 at the time young people where expected to be married or working and raising families by than it's how we view a young person in the western countries in the late 20th century or early 21st century when Buffy and Angel takes me place is much different than the 18th century when Angel was mortal. If you saw someone like Liam today in a pub you wouldn't care or think twice about that kind of behavior
@@TheAaronChand I didn't say Liam was evil. He was just a weak fool who was easily consumed by evil the moment he turned into a vampire. They said that a vampire can still carry on their past human traits and so when Liam was womanizing and doing all kinds of things that he shouldn't have, maybe that didn't include murdering or worse than that, his vampiric trait, the soulless monster took over and did ten times worse than what he had done as a human. So it's not like he was evil but had he lived a more benevolent life, stuck to his morals, and principals that he had been born into, maybe he wouldn't have TURNED into an evil vampire. Or maybe he wouldn't be nearly as bad as Spike or other vampires who just fed on humans. He wouldn't be sadistic and delight on torture before killing them.
You always seem to dislike the deep episodes that have a strong message from different perspectives, this is one of the strongest episodes of the entire series but what made this so compelling is you could see all four points of views equally, you could understand Buffy, Spike, woods and Giles position, I mean in woods shoes wouldn't you want to kill the thing that killed your mother, or from Buffy's perspective of not having time for vendetta's, on and on, you can side with who you want to but this episode showed that they all had solid reasons for doing what they did.
Completely agree, it is darkest but this show is so deep. She has to read a lot of articles about this show and rewatch, a lot of references, details, meaning , to more appreciate the show
@@alooncneja916 lol she doesn't have to like an episode just because other people do or have to understand everyone's perspective. That's the beauty of Buffy, the writers leave it up to you to decide. How rude are you at all? Screw your articles and blah blah blah you don't need to read up on Buffy to understand it. If you do then you obviously don't understand great television.. the OG fans must of been real dumb then cause back then there wasn't all this rewatch or articles or whatever but we still loved it and understood it you idiot
@@rayhefferman1733 rewatch the show is not because you are an idiot, I meant it is good because you understand MORE the show and see all the details you skipped during your first watching and you can see the show is very consistent deep and unique. Maybe she appreciates more or like this kind of episodes like others. I loved already Buffy during my first watching but I was kid I loved mooooreee when I watched again and read all the references and a little studies about this amazing show :)
@@alooncneja916 I've watched every episode at least 20 times over the years, I always love to come back to Buffy and it's still my favorite tvseries and it honestly changed my life and helped me through alot... I'm not being idiotic just saying that she doesn't have to rewatch or read articles or anything to understand the show. You suggested she didn't understand the show and needed to basically study it before she can appreciate and understand it.. this is her first veiwing so to say she doesn't understand the show is ridiculous.. I get what your saying that you learn to appreciate it in different ways after you've finished the series but that doesn't mean she can't grasp the concept and understand it fully for what it is the first time around.. my thoughts of the show haven't changed much at all over the years maybe a little about season 7 but otherwise it's just a happy feel good strong show for me and always will be
The first played Wood and Giles they fell for it's manipulating and turned them against each other that's why I don't like or agree with woods or Giles motives... Plain stupid because they helped Spike in the end instead of killing him
"Because the military gave him a soul"
I really don't think it matters to Giles if its someone he likes or hates. It's about the greater good. Remember in the season 5 finale he killed Ben even though he was a soul having human because he felt that Buffy was blind to the threat and it would come back to bite them all. Giles is a big picture guy for better or worse.
True because if he knows that someone out there is a threat to them (Ben at that time even though he was just human but because he could turn into Glory), he would take matters into his own hands. If Buffy wasn't capable of doing that, then Giles would do it. Same thing with Spike. He truly felt that Spike was much more than a liability (not to mention a threat) than an asset, then he was willing to sacrifice him. Buffy couldn't, not just because of what she felt for him, but because only SHE knows that he's the only one in their team who's strong enough to best her when it comes to hand to hand combat. Buffy was the strongest one but losing Spike would be almost like losing her strongest right hand man. Even Robin, Giles, and the others won't last as long as him and Buffy and so she couldn't afford that. I think Giles' at this point, when he saw how Spike was every bit capable of killing all of them, it kind of triggered him like how an overprotective parent reacts to any threats over his child (Buffy). So I can see where Giles comes from. In a way, when he was lecturing Buffy in cemetery, it was like he was trying to tell her that she needs to ditch the ex-boyfriend who just got a parole or needs to go back to rehab or something. lol
Right, and Wesley does the same thing in season 3 when Willow gets captured, very much willing to sacrifice her to secure the box. These watchers man, if anything they do seem to want things to remain more or less in tact.
Giles is just being controlling and ignorant.. not the same in comparison to killing Glory at all
I think he just can't take that Buffy is fine without him and doesn't need his help opinion or his guidance anymore
Yeah it has nothing to do with Spike.
I remember in the commentary they brought up that the original script mentioned Giles killing Ben for the greater good but they cut it because they figured no one cared about Ben. I think it would have been a good line to reinforce his point.
Giles has ALWAYS disliked Spike, this isn't news or like, some shocking twist LMAO - he was only able to tolerate him to an extent for the degree of good he could do but I don't think he ever trusted him. And so if Spike's killing innocents again? Not even under his own control? It makes PERFECT sense for Giles to say, "Nope, we can't have that" - it would be the same if Angel was around and became Angelus again, or even flipped uncontrollably between Angel and Angelus.
But for him to be completely and utterly ready to cast Spike aside on such an assumption after all Spike has done for them. In his own he is being more callous than cautious. This episode shows just how much everyone could be willing to cast eachother's feeling's and merrit aside for personal grievance.
@@zaxbitterzen2178 how much does giles know about the rape incident though? they never explain it in the series, but xander isnt one to keep his mouth shut. if giles knew about that, he would be very protective of buffy and very untrusting toward spike
@@sydandtaytum ...he covered for Xander in the hyena episode. Let everyone believe Xander "didn't remember"
So, it would be a serious double standard to vilify Spike for similar behavior when Spike stopped himself. (The pack was STOPPED - important distinction.)
Not saying either was right by any stretch of the imagination, but Giles behavior has been wildly inconsistent at times and criminal at others (cruciamentum- I'm too lazy to look up the proper spelling)
who cares. doesn’t make it right
@@lgbtorion Yeah but the point is one can't say it was out of nowhere or out of character
The look on Principal Wood's face when Giles goes on his rant about the library. It was the face of someone who was raised by a Watcher and has heard it all before.
Spike stole that jacket from Principal Wood's mother so legally the jacket is Wood's I guess.
Ikr. He claimed it wasn't him that kill his mother. BUT HE TAKES THE JACKET!?! .......what a dick. I stopped liking him at this episode.
Micheal93k he’s saying she gave up. That’s she allowed herself to get killed. That she killed herself.
The most ironic thing in this whole situation is that Wood and Giles were partially "motivated" by Spike's trigger making him a liability for the team, yet it's Wood who's been triggered by the First when he found out about Spike killing his mother, and he became the liability himself when he decided to kill Spike behind Buffy's back.
In my opinion this episode clearly shows people's fears and insecurities about the things that are dangerous and they can't controle.
I know a lot of people are defending Giles on here but I also see Buffy's perspective too & why she is so pissed off at him in this one. Buffy understands Principle Wood's feelings & isn't that emotionally attached to him so I think that's why she's a bit more empathetic towards him. With Giles it's a bit more complex though, she knows he hates Spike but I think it upset her even more that he went behind her back & betrayed her trust. Remember how betrayed she felt by him in Helpless?
How hard is it for you to understand principal wood only knows the bad side of spike. Spike killed his mom, took away his childhood. He has every right to want to kill spike.
I think it should be remembered that Warren had a soul. Having a soul does not automatically make you good. Giles wasn't completely wrong to not trust Spike, as Wood proved the monster can be pulled back out. It's the same with Angel, which is why back in season three (of Angel) Angel himself noted that it was good that Gunn was willing to kill him if it came to it. The monster is never truly gone, just lying in wait for an opportunity. Not to mention that up to this point the First had been able to control Spike which made him dangerous.
It's a different with vampires with souls because what it represents the desire to be better with Angel it was metaphorical equivalent of being confronted with and forced to care about what he'd done and eventually atone. With Spike it was trying to be better to not hurt and win the affection of someone he loved. Both are powerful in their own right although Angel still slips it takes a lot of manipulation to bring him to that point.
Angel is evil either way I find. He's never likeable and he hasn't done much to redeem himself at all. all he does is screw up act selfish be an asshole and mope around :( the only time I've seen him actually care was with Faith :(
@@rayhefferman1733 you’ve CLEARLY never seen the show then
Like at all, to actually make this comment
I agree with you that Spike has a soul now and you can’t hold him accountable for what he did as a vampire without a soul. But at the same time from Principal Woods perspective I get why he wants to kill him.
I can see Giles' point. When they had their gigglefest last season, Spike couldn't be turned murderously evil by playing a song.
Either way, Giles was wrong for going behind Buffy’s back
Spike has a SOUL now
Is that not good enough for anyone? Holding his past against him is wrong. Though both him and Angel have to suffer from that stuff forever.
Giles never did this with Angel.,,unless it was Angelus.
I love this episode. I like that you compared Spike and Angel and what they are and are not reaponsible for with a soul. I think it is interesting how much more guilt Angel feels, and Spike says, "I dont care about your mom, I was a vampire." I like how different they are and that they did not tread the same ground they did with Angel. Also, I think Giles is being a parental figure. He doesn't like Spike for Buffy. Also, you know how parents sometimes forget their children are capable of leading and making their own choices without parental intervention? I think he, like many well-meaning fathers, makes mistakes.
Angel's soul is not like the one that Spike has because Angel's one is cursed and Spike fought for his own, that's why Angel feel so much more guilt, because part of the curse is that he has to feel guilt over all the crimes he commited and that he can't be happy without loosing It.
Absolutely Irene and also Spike's just come from the events of Get It Done when he realised he needed the demon in him to be effective as a fighter.
@@IreneRose666 Because Angel had to sit with soul for a century and really think about the things he did. Spike here, did not and thinks things are fine now.
@@EmoBearRights He also needed to not run away from his past if he actually wanted to be a hero.
@@parkerboy795 True and he'll get there.
I know this reaction's a year old but *my god* this is hard to watch. Imagine standing face to face with the person who murdered your mother. Seriously. The fact that you can't vaguely sympathize with Woods, that you're cheering about how Spike beat the life out of his mom, and gleefully mentioning how Spike's going to own his victim's coat one day after he slaughters her... again. I know this is a year old, you're done watching this show, ancient history, but please check your priorities a little bit in the future. You can love Spike and still understand that what he did to Woods (and hundreds of other people, over the centuries) was horrible and traumatizing, and empathize with his victims a little bit.
I love Spike, too. But to be honest: if I would be prinicpal wood, I would try to kill Spike, too. Yes, Spike is different now, but you can`t see this if you lost someone you loved.. it is like your mum would`ve been killed by a killer, who was in prison and is now a good guy. You are not able to see a good person in this man, because he harmed a love person.
It's different though lol Spike was a soulless vampire and Nikki Wood was the Vampire Slayer so that's the way it goes ! If Spike didn't kill her something else would have anyways
So Faith isn't a good person?
Ray Hefferman Your completely missing the point, entirely. It’s going out the other ear.
Except this exact situation was done in Avatar the Last Airbender? It’s exactly the same. The criminal who took your mother away is living a wretched life, to the point where it wouldn’t be considered “living”. It’s just, should we say, going through the motions? Katara had a choice. Wood had a choice. It just happened to be the same choice. You can handle choices like this responsibly, your emotional situation doesn’t excuse your actions, it just explains them.
Edit: and Katara was what? 12?! Maturity goals tbh XD
@@rayhefferman1733 if Angel killed Nikki wood and Robin fought against Angel Angel would be racked with gulit knowing that he caused so much pain for killing his mother like he felt guilty about Holtz family or Drusilla or Jenny calendar where spike was able to forgive him self and move on faster
Loved this episode, James Marsters was really on point in this one.
Am I the only one that finds it kinda sweet that even when Spike is turned into a vampire he still loves his mother and still cares about her well being?
Really? The thought of someone who loves me killing me to make me possessed by an undead, bloodthirsty, demonic serial killer and damning my soul to hell is the opposite of sweet, but it does fit with Spike's selfish version of love. It's not what his mother would have wanted, but it's what Spike wants.
@@RachaelAHughes sure u can look at it that way but in Spike's eyes it's an act of love. He doesn't have to turn her into a vampire, most vampires would probably murder their families or let them suffer. It's not like Spike wants to turn her and then ditch her, he wanted to spend the rest of his life with his mom.
@@jongon0848 I know. That's why I said that it's Spike's version of love. He's not considering what his mother would have wanted, only what he wants. Spike's love is obsessive, immature, and selfish, not sweet. That's why it's important that Drusilla, the "insane" one, can see that Spike is wrong here.
@@RachaelAHughes compared to Angel 100 years earlier in the 18th century in 1753 who was pretty much a Deviant in life drinking fighting using women. Angel had no strong characteristics when being turned. And him and his father never got along. Certainly didn't help his already low self confidence. Spike was completely different situation he had a strong personality his extremely sensitive and loyal passionate side stuck with him. So I've always attributed William personality being dominated by the demon that infected his body or blanced it out. His stronger personality allowed him to keep a bit of humanity. Drusilla dispite being mentally abused and or psychologically tortured. By Angel in 1860 kept a bit of humanity because as a human she was pure sweet chaste and dutiful daguter and devoted Catholic Christian. And loved her family. The stronger your personality as a human the more chance of you keeping some of your humanity. Liam had no strong personality. He had a lot of negative personality traits. And behaviors
Spike became a soulless vampire and still loved his mother. How can you not root for the guy
"How dare he hurt Spike"? You really think facing the person (soulless or not, its still the same face, same voice, same body) responsible for murdering your parent isn't a reason enough to want or even get revenge?
Kevin H I agree. I don’t get her obsession with Spike to the point where she thinks it’s wrong for Woods to get revenge for his mothers murder. He was a killer. That’s all he knew and understood that he was getting revenge on the monster who killed his mother.
Because Spike is the best, duh. I don't understand how people hate on him .. lol go watch Twilight if you can't get over how truly awesome Spike is
@@rayhefferman1733 Because Spike was so awesome when he almost did a truly awful thing to Buffy in her bathroom in Season 6???.......Okayyy
I'm not saying Spike has never had his moments but to deny his past terrible actions and then moan and cry when Karma & Justice come at him is ridiculous.
@@khera7576 what happened was the ending breaking point of a passionate desperate attempt to belong and feel anything, pain included. Buffy is just as much to blame as Spike to how they're relationship got to that point. I don't think Spike went there with the intention to rape Buffy but when he did try he was totally wrong, even he was so shocked he tried something like that... But they never ever had boundaries and violence was always there between them. Very blurry lines but it was clear when he crossed that line for sure. I still don't hate him for it though because he truly loves her and it's sad how twisted things got but I'm glad the show didn't shy away from bringing topics like that to light... It was doomed from the start and it's never good to lose yourself in someone else
@@khera7576 it's funny how that's the only thing people say about him when they obviously don't appreciate his character for what it is and how it's evolved... Get over it at least he didn't leave her high and dry to be a complete waist in LA 😂😂
Even tho killing Spike is wrong for tactical reasons and moral reasons. I put myself in Woods shoes and I completely understand his anger. It doesn’t justify it but I would do the same in his shoes.
If you say youd do the same thing still ADMITTING to wrong doing and being immoral
Killing Spike wouldn’t bring his mom back..
Giles was there during the first 3-seasons. Giles remembers finding Jenny. So, he knows exactly what Spike is, a potential time bomb. A disaster waiting to happen. Angel is hero, a force for good: right up to the point that he isn't and he's trying to end the world.
He's also realistically human in that most people are never going to forget the past wrongs done to them by someone who has reformed. They may forgive Spike, the may have empathy or even sympathy for Spike, but they will never completely trust him, and certainly not within the time frame of the show.
Spike hasn't tried to end the world at all actually.. and Spike saved Giles life when Angelus was torturing him, helped Buffy save the world like a shitload of times.. alot of his motivations are selfish or out of 'love' but at least he could show genuine love even when he was soulless.. which Angelus is totally incapable of.. Angel is a time bomb because when he loses his soul he turns into a pure psychopath killer monster. Spike is a hero, thas just facts..and he isnt a complete animal without a soul either so Giles just sucks in this situation and totally in the wrong.. no reason at all just to hurt Buffy honestly. Who is realistically human? What does that even mean? And it's in realistic people to forgive and trust can be rebuilt if they want it bad enough which Spike has shown countless times :) Spike with a soul tries to be a better man and pushes forward unlike Angel with a soul who just hates himself crys mopes and be a shitty boyfriend lol by the by it's Dru's fault Jenny died really because she saw the vision of the soul returning
@@rayhefferman1733 Spike is a murderer. He has attempted to murder all of them, repeatedly. He has killed hundreds if not thousands of people. His actions as a vampire were entirely selfish, even when he was fighting with the Scoobies. His love for Drew was such that he decided to drag her off and torture her until she "loved" him again. Spike loves violence and is infamous because he has killed two slayers.
After a period of time with a behaviour chip implanted, he shows some signs of genuine selflessness, but ultimately ends up attempting to rape Buffy. Giles has no reason to believe that a now chipless Spike will be any different to the Spike he experienced in the second season if he lost his soul again.
Let's say you have a daughter, who has an alcoholic boyfriend, a known murderer who has attempted to kill her and rape her when he was drinking. Just how happy would you really be at the thought they were living and working together, even if he has quit drinking and seems to have completely mastered his addiction? It's just been a few years since he tried to kill you, her and all your friends. You wouldn't worry for your daughter?
@@matth1589 you are way out of line, I'm not here to read sick stuff like that... This is a discussion about a TV series not whatever the hell your talking about. Your sick get some help ugh I'm disgusted
@@matth1589 Just one wee point. You do know that when Spike said he'd torture Dru until she loved him again, it's because Dru loves being tortured, right? Angelus taught her to love the pain along with the pleasure, vampires are way into the kink & BDSM - they showed us that in season 2 and it's pretty obvious. We're just talking a bit of consensual BDSM here, and Spike is copying his grandsire to show Dru he can be just as bad as Daddy. Also, no dragging her off involved anywhere. It's always very obvious to me that people who say this about that line in Lovers Walk are VERY vanilla, Lol.
Other than that, your points are valid, though my view is a bit different.
Obviously time is needed since Spike has only recently been re-ensouled, but he is trying to be a better man, and a good person now, who is horrified by what the First has been using him for. For me, I compare Spike being controlled by the First to kill to if Willow or Xander were to be controlled by the First to kill ( especially Willow maybe, since she's powerful) - no-one, either on the show, or fans watching would demand that Willow or Xander be killed for things out of their control.
I know it's not quite the same with Spike's past, but he is one of the team now, has been helping save the world for a few years, and Willow recently tried to destroy the world with a soul, so not SO different....
I DO think Spike should have stayed chained up until the trigger was deactivated, and that Giles should have given a bit more time for the Prokaryote Stone to do it's work and not expect instant results, before deciding Spike needed killing. If Spike had been chained up though, the scenario with Robin that deactivated the trigger would not have happened - but I'm sure the writers could have come up with something else. But no fight scene was be less 'entertaining' from their point of view I suppose.
Btw, Spike can't 'lose' his soul and go evil again
- his soul isn't detachable like Angel's. There's no 'perfect happiness clause' or any other kind of clause.
Whereas Angel ins season 3 being part of the team again, could lose his soul again, and that is a risk and a threat, yet despite him murdering Jenny, Giles makes no attempt to kill him. So there is a lack of logic here. And it's weird emotionally too, Giles has much more reason to kill Angel.
Oops! that became more than the one point I intended, LOL.
@@bellatronics How do you know the metaphysical laws governing Spike's returned soul? It's not really discussed within the show. We don't know much about the creature that returned Spike's soul. Fantasy is replete with stories of gifts coming with undisclosed catches, and the entity that returned Spike's soul appeared rather more demonic than angelic. Giles knows a wizard who can steal souls. Another one is seen in Angel (the TV series) along with a Soul Eating demon. As far as Giles's experience goes, stealing souls is rather more common place than vampires having them.
Maybe Spike's method of re-ensoulment makes him invulnerable to soul stealing shenanigans. Maybe it would actually make it easier. However, there isn't anyone in Sunnydale, including Spike, who knows. Angel was unique. So to is Spike. There is no precedent and they've had just a few, frantic months, at most, to deal with situation.
It's like having you car repaired or serviced. You trust their expertise. The car comes back fixed. I don't know what they've done but the car works. Sometimes though things happen like they forgot to tightened up the brake fluid lines. So, they work the first time you use them: then they don't. Spike's like that. He went away and came back with a soul. They have no idea how he got it, whether the "mechanic" was a reputable one, nor whether the parts and the job were up to spec.
As to Dru loving BDSM. She'd sent Spike away. She'd told him she was disgusted by him. It doesn't matter whether she is into BDSM, it's established that she doesn't want him, that it wouldn't be consensual. Season 2, showed that soulless Spike has no compunctions over over-powering Dru and dragging her off against her will. Though you could argue about the wording. Dru tried to fight him off and she was choked out (not sure how that works given multiple in show references to vampires having not breath, and not having a heart beat) and carried off. It really is no different to a villain, let's say someone like Warren, saying "My ex used to love having sex with me. I'm going to force her to have sex with me until she remembers how much they enjoyed it before." It's evil. The souless Spike is evil, just in a charming, chiseled way.
Yeah, I've never loved Giles role in this episode, It has never sat well with me.
On another note this episode is one of my favorites, when Buffy says "More importantly I'll let him." Ahhh, that line!
I like how this episode show us the difference between unsouled Spike and unsouled Angel: The first thing that Angelus's done when he became a vampire was kilingl his family. The first thing that Spike did was trying to save his mother (from illness). Of caurse he was a vampire, and killer and all that, but he's way better than Angelus. People often compare souled Angel and unsouled Spike, given examples when Spike was selfish and not all good at season 4, 5 and 6, yeah his chip didn't changed him so much, it just unable him to kill people - he became ally, and then (after he fell in love with Buffy) sort of freindly-neibour vampire, he do good for peaple he loves (for example for Buffy and Dawn, he even stayed and help the Scoobies after Buffy'd died ). The fact that we can compare unsouled Spike and souled Angel tells that Spike is better person then Angel in general. (imagine if we could compare unsouled Angel and souled Spike - they are sooo different)
Plus the characters always treat Angel and Angelus as different people, but Spike with a soul and Spike without are always treated as the same person. It’s ridiculous. When Angel lost his soul and became Angelus, he was still able to understand his love for Buffy because we know Spike fell in love with Buffy without a soul. Either they are responsible for their choices as soulless demons, in which case Angel had the choice not to do all that shit in season 2 and Giles and Woods are right for thinking Spike still deserves to die. Or, they are not responsible for what they did as soulless demons, in which case Spike shouldn’t be killed for killing Nikki, and he is remarkable for being able to overcome his demons before he got his soul back. Either way, angel sucks.
Spike taking Nikki's coat back is huge step back for him, especially in an episode in which he is reasserting his autonomy and growth. Wearing the trophy of someone you've killed is serial killer stuff. Newly ensouled Spike knew that wearing the coat was wrong, but he thought he needed it to get his mojo back, which is silly because it was always a costume in the first place. But now he's doing it just to be a jerk, and I can't think of him as a sincere agent of good while he's wearing the coat of a warrior for good who he killed when he didn't have a soul.
pavlovsbell I responded to someone else’s comment saying something similar about Spike keeping his victims jacket as a trophy. He should of left that jacket to Woods being that it was his mother’s and spike took it of her dead body. So the fact that she said that it’s not Woods jacket in her reaction is beside me.
Agree with you, it makes no sense in Spike's arc of redemption and too cruel for a man eated by regrets like in the beginning of the season. I don't like how Buffy and Spike treat Wood in this episode.
I'm kind of uncertain why SO many people are defending Giles. You're totally right. It's short-sighted of him to try to kill Spike. The fact that Spike is amazing and Buffy and the audience love him doesnt mean shit, Spike is an asset and the danger he poses is not worth sacrificing him. Apart from Buffy and Willow, they have *no other superpowered fighters*. So yeah, the First might trigger Spike to kill some potentials. Or Giles and Robin kill Spike, and the First sends its minions to the house and there's 2 people instead of 3 there to protect them.
Also, Spike is essentially a human being. We know Giles is capable of sacrificing a person because he killed Ben, and was willing to sacrifice Dawn, but there was a very clear cause and effect danger going on there that provided literally no other option, to the best of his knowledge. We don't just kill people because they might become possessed and dangerous. If the First mind-controlled Buffy and she was killing people, would Giles kill Buffy? Or would he go to the ends of the earth to find a way to save her?
Oh yeah, the fact that at any point he can be controlled by the First is totally not dangerous enough for him to wanna bench him
I don't have any issue with what Principal Wood did, it's perfectly understandable. Most of his life has been dedicated to dusting his mother's killer. I did think that Giles was completely out of character, though and I don't think he'd have betrayed Buffy again, after the whole test thing on her 18th.
Giles wasn’t out of character, he was exactly consistent since the beginning
I still think Spike should have let Robin keep the jacket. I feel like they only had him take it back to keep the character costume the same. I really think Spike-with-a-soul should have changed his look more.
The giles decision bothers me because he always trusted buffys judgement before and then suddenly he pulls a Xander.
Your point about it not really being Spike, or not this same Spike that killed Woods mother, is being pointed out in this episode. Spike realizes that THAT wasn't really his mum, but the demon that was put in her. In the same vein, it wasn't really William or Souled Spike that killed Woods mom. A lot of people don't think of Unsouled Spike vs. Souled Spike the same way they think of Unsouled Angel vs. Souled Angel, because Angel and Angelus are depicted as 2 separate entities. But Angelus IS just Unsouled Angel, and we can't blame Spike for what Unsouled Spike did, if we don't blame Angel for what Angelus did.
(Have to keep reposting this due to the people who INSIST on replying with unrelated irrelevant topics, having nothing to do with the point I made)
Except she hasn't seen the whole show yet! (ESPECIALLY: ANGEL/ "DAMAGES").
*Sigh* Nowhere in future episodes does it turn out that between the time Spike was sired until he regained his soul, he actually had a soul all along. And that is the only way that my comment could be countered by future episodes.
The bias of the males within the Scoobies against Angel and Spike is one of the many things that turn me off BTVS. Over at Angel it only took the LA crew like 5 seconds to give Spike a chance once they learned he had a soul. But it's not really that surprising considering how much the Sunnydale crew lets past impressions rule them if Andrew's treatment of Angel and Wesley is any indication.
In conversations with dead people Joyce said that Buffy wont choose Dawn which foreshadows. Buffy telling Giles that she would let Dawn die to save the world if she had to.
What really does my head in ... not much longer now, just ... two years ... and we'll have ADULTS who were born AFTER Buffy ended ... and it's STILL one of the best shows ever.
SPIKE wanted to save his mom.. Thats so Sad and heartbreaking
She had a kid at young age
My moms had her first kid at 14
She also was a slayer for about 7 years enough time to have a kid after being called.
She was pregnant on her Cruciamentum
"Early one morning, just as the sun was shining, I saw a young made sing in the valley below." Love that song! ❤️
I can picture Shan in the 1870s in a Victorian dress, chasing after Spike down an alleyway, yelling to one of his victims "You shouldn't be running from him! It'll just make you more tired!"
The Spikettes will forgive the blonde bombshell many things!
Spike became a vampire in 1880
@@TheAaronChand Yeah, yeah. I just picked a decade close to the 1900s.
My fav episode showing spike wasn’t a monster from the start.
Your face when Fred called 😂 l love Spike but I do see where everyone is coming from.
Giles never trusted Spike I think that's why he allowed it to happen. It was one thing when Spike had the chip, he literally wasn't capable of hurting someone, but with a soul it didn't matter. After all there are horrible murderers in real life. Just my thoughts on it, but I was happy when this first aired to finally see Spike kick the crap out of Wood, he needed a humbling.
Oh no, that's not what she meant Shannan! At 19:55 Buffy is saying that if there were no other alternative, she believe that now, she could do what she said she wouldn't do back then - but since there was an alternative then she didn't have to. The Dawn situation is not a perfect situation since the Buffy/Dawn connection precludes ever *having* to kill Dawn or let her die in that specific instance.
Also, your gripes about the characters' continual inconsistency (or inability to in the first place) in recognizing the obvious differences between vampires and their hosts is one I share and I imagine that most people do whom are familiar with the lore. I'm positive it is done only for the sake of drama in the story because, otherwise, if people could rationally and sanely differentiate between Spike ensouled & Spike vampire or Angel ensouled or Angelus, they would lack a lot of the interpersonal shenanigans that they end up with.
I don't think that's true I think it's just hard for some people to make that distinction because the unsouled vampires did horrible things to them and unlike Buffy they don't care enough about the ensouled vampire to forgive that.
Spike loved his mum more than lust... its sweet really.
Your reaction to Robin’s pain is gross. Spike can do no wrong in your eyes.
Spike can do wrong, but he's not that person anymore.
Do you hold Angel accountable for things that Angelus did? You must hold the same standard for both vampires with souls.
After Show Reactions it’s not about whether he’s the same person or not. Robin is crying out in pain about how Spike snapped his mothers neck in one of the most heart wrenching scenes of the season, and you’re there cheering Spike on with your “YEAH’S”. It’s about seeing both sides.
She's hypnotized by his cheekbones.
“Because the Military gave him a soul........” 😜😜😜 It’s such a hilarious line! And, he says it so perfectly! Makes me laugh so hard- every, single time!
I hope you're enjoying Season 7, Shan. The next episode is a real eye-opener!
Hey, I don't mean to sound rude, but it's a real issue I have when people spell my name incorrectly. I have asked people to call me Shan because my name is not Shannon.
@@AfterShowReactions Understood, my apologies.
As Buffy said, they're at war. Spike is one of her strongest warriors.
Wood is following a personal vendetta. He doesn't even care WHY the First Evil gave him this lead, he just goes for it. Middle of a war, doesn't care. His vendetta comes before the world. And he hides behind a noble agenda and tries to justifying himself with it being for the greater good.
Giles, how you disappointed me here. All the talk about Buffy having to take hard decisions (keeping a potentially dangerous vampire around while everybody disagrees with you sound like a hard decision to me) and be a general. And when she doesn't do it your way, you go behind her back - because this is how wars are won?
Woods (and Giles, albeit unknowingly) played right along the First's schemes. At least Spike had to be controlled by a trigger to do its bidding.
Agreed! The first played itself here cause they ended up helping Spike get over the firsts hold! So jokes on y'all lol dumb non corporeal brain... Honestly the first is rather stupid so far none of it's plans have been that devious or successful lol.. plus Giles has done this in the past alot.. he gets really stubborn like in season 2 when the demon he conjured up killed someone then came back and killed a bunch of people, truly messed up Jenny and he lied to Buffy until it nearly killed her.. plus in Helpless he seriously crossed a line by drugging Buffy and nearly getting Joyce killed.. he abandoned Buffy like a coward like 5 times as well.. Buffys dad is a jerk and Giles was a good "male authority figure" not a good father figure in my opinion
Every Fri. Morning I watch your Buffy reaction while I feed my baby. When she hears your voice she turns her head and insists on watching
Dr Gull who Spike offers to call for his mother is supposed to be, I assume, William Gull. He was a physician to Queen Victoria and an unlikely but talked about suspect in the Jack the Ripper murders.
Nikki was 22 when she died. Eighteen when she had Robin.
Which means she went through the Cruciamentum while she was preggers. Nikki Wood was a badass.
@@davidmernick7360 not necessarily, she could have gotten pregnant after.
It's different. Because you have the hots for Spike. No other reason.
Haha that's it exactly
My thoughts too.
People will always try to justify what they want. I don't get the Spike Buffy relationship everyone wants to push, but at least in this season he has a soul. I can support it now that he's not a soulless demonic thing, but to wish for Buffy to be with Spike in seasons 5 and 6 just seems sick to me.
Did you watch the show back in 1997? Sounds like you didn't. Everyone loved Spike and obviously people still do..
@@rayhefferman1733 Did watch it when it originally aired, yes. Loved Spike as the wacky villain. Liked him as the bumbling, nutured villain.Have seen enough abusive relationships to hate the forced Bike shipping.
@@Bwachaauh bike? Lol ok then :\ and it wasn't forced for me at all... He was dangerous sexy witty funny loving sweet brave stupid and everything every guy pretty much is so it wasn't hard to fall for him.. plus who didn't have a relationship similar to spuffy when we were young? You missed out if you didn't!! Lol plus he's fucking ripped and blonde so what's with the ew?
I love Spike but on this matter I'm completely on Wood's side. He watched this guy kill his mum. And Spike did take that coat of her dead body.
He did not watch Spike kill his mother. She was killed on an empty subway train car.
@@ebutuoy6055 oh well..this fix everything..Wtf is wrong with you??
@@CBS68 well... it's not about the change at all... what it's about is... all.the good this man has done and all the good he continued to do was glossed over Bc Woods wanted to kill him.... it was bad writing.... the sad part about this is.... spike has always been infatuated with killing slayers.... that's what he has always been.. a slayer slayer.... you don't see some random dude coming at Angel going "you killed my mom" spike killing another slayer was just that...
While I can understand to a certain degree why Giles and Wood did what they did, what they did and the way they went about it was wrong. Giles went behind Buffy's back and Wood tricked Spike. I can understand Wood's anger and rage, but killing Spike would not bring his mother back. I like the episodes that look into Spike's past.
The angry are often not wise.
You're right, the broke Giles. The Giles of the 7th season has nothing to do with the Giles we loved in all other seasons.
I agree maybe the only character who deserved better in this season but that Giles did was understandable too
Like others have said. How is this any different from Giles killing Ben? Killing Spike seems in character for him when the fate of the world is at hand.
@@drewb3665 Giles killing Ben is the old Ripper Giles, he this had to be down and he wouldn't dare to put Buffy on it. The Spike matter is completly different, because Spike has a soul and is Buffy's ally. He had been shown as a fahther to Buffy and the worst moments of the 7th season he didn't act as this at all.
The thing is Giles wasn't able to differentiate Angel and Angelus. When Angel lost his soul, they all still called him Angel, not Angelus. Treated him like a friend who betrayed them, rather than a completely separate being which they are. And when Angel returns they never fully trust him despite knowing he isn't Angelus. So, to Giles, ever since Angelus he's never saw a difference like Angel's team does. They openly refer to Angel and Angelus as two different people and don't hold what Angelus does against Angel. Giles and Xander never did that.
As much as I hate how this was handled, I do understand why Robin wanted to kill Spike. The guy killed his mom. His anger is justified. But, I still love Spike.
Also, if Spike wasn't trying to kill Nikki just to kill a slayer, he still would've killed her before she killed him. "I was a vampire, she was a slayer. That's way the game is played." It's about survival. "It's kill or be killed. Take your bloody pick." So, Spike killing Nikki is justifiable.
Great reaction. Thanks, Ms Shannan.
My opinion on the episode - I get everyone. Buffy needs Spike alive, but she hasn't explained to Giles why that is, so Giles - ever suspicious of William the Bloody - agrees with Wood. How easy is it to articulate what Spike is to Buffy? Let me try:
Spike is, as Buffy mentioned in Season 5, her strongest ally. Vampire strength and skills are important to Buffy's army. He's also there as a moral support, and not (just) as a boyfriend. But this last is very nuanced, and looks very much - to anyone else - like Buffy is letting her feelings get in the way of making hard decisions.
Giles jumped to a conclusion, and did what he thought was best. If the conclusion would have been correct, he might even have been right in doing so. Wood convinced himself he was killing two birds with one stone, by the same logic. They just don't understand the Buffy-Spike relationship.
22:27 - Lady she lived at the time where the internet wasn't even a thing and don't think she was able to have access to that kind of knowledge. And there was no record of two slayers being active at the same time, so she wouldn't have known. 22:52 except angel himself holds himself accountable for what angelus did!
Fun fact Buffy’s middle name is Anne and spikes moms first name was Anne lol joss joke
I'm now wondering if Spike's mum being called Anne is an Anne Rice reference, given that Lestat turned his mother in the Vampire Lestat.
It's a reference to Buffy the commentary for this episode says they cast Caroline Lagerfelt because she looked a bit like Sarah. Can I just put a shout in to Caroline Lagerfelt BTW.
Also, the thing about Angel is complicated. Angel believes he and Angelus are the same person and holds himself responsible. Angelus on the other hand, says they're not. So, it's confusing.
I remember the first time I watched this episode and I knew immediately the Spike turning his sick and dying mother and then being rejected by her was straight out of the book The Vampire Lestat by Anne Rice. Lestat literally did the same damn this and turned his mother into a vampire because she was dying.
This episode was completely consistent with Gilles character
No notifications :( for one of my favorite episodes of season 7 >:( Bad UA-cam!!!
The only part I don't like about this episode is when Spike says to Robin his mom didn't love him enough to quit her life calling... Does that mean Angel should have quit his mission for Connor? You're either a parent or a person? I completely disagree with that.
That said, I adore this episode. 4 people, 4 points of view and I can see a good reason for all of them. And the flashbacks with William's mom are haunting!! And what a different version of vampires soulless Spike and Angelus were!! This episode is actually my theory why Joyce was never in danger with Spike, because she reminded him of his own mother (back then his backstory didn't even exist, but I don't give a damn!! It makes so much sense!!).
Thank you so much, Shan!!!
Yes, this has always been my theory about Spike & Joyce too.
I find it very interesting that Spike still loved his mum after being turned, and tried to 'save' her by turning her, and also horrified and creeped out and feeling sorry for Vamp William at what happened after.
Do you remember all the lies your parents told you after show reacts
Santa Claus!
@@lawrencegough what do you mean Santa is real right. Right?
@@nathanyou1899 yes! He disembowels children!
Re: Spike biting his mom: Angel bit his dad. What's with Buffy's guys and biting their parents?
Spike biting a couple of guys and the One recently in "Conversation's with dead people"
Your first reaction to Spike way back when is why I subscribed. You're still defending him and it's great
This episode is one of the best in the series. Great writing and Dru was back
22:15 OMG, you are such a "...." Imagine a word which is a combination of nerd, dork, cute and intelligent altogether. Heh, that is why is so entertaining to watch you at the same time we remember this great series.
Giles is just worried about Spike being used by The First. He doesn’t hate him, he’s just trying to look out for Buffy and the world.
The issue I have is that one word just - that's the problem with utilitarian ethics that who the sacrifice is will be coloured by what you do or don't feel for them. Hate is a strong word maybe too strong but Giles has always disliked Spike and neither truly understands or trusts him that in his eyes makes him expendable. Giles also remembers the pain of losing Jenny and be tortured both physically and emotionally by Angelus and that leaves scars and colours his worldview.
Kat Welham - I understand your point and in any other instance I would agree with you. I think Giles truly believes Spike is a liability and not an asset so he really is just looking out for Buffy and the world. He may not like Spike, but I don’t believe his feelings are coloring his actions/decisions in this case.
I don't see how someone's feelings for a person can't colour their attitude whether they realise it or not. We're not Locutus of the Borg.
3:22
Giles is HALARIOUS here!
Reminds me of Jerry from Totalky Spies
Your lack of sympathy for Robin is interesting.
My theory of why Giles hates Spike. I think Giles hates Spike, besides him being a vampire and all the things he has done, because Spike reminds him of his Ripper days. In Band Candy, we saw that Ripper is all about doing what he wants, whether that is taking what he wants or being violent, just like Spike.
Spike the only one to have a trigger, a chip, and a soul. And an alien inside of him, ja ja.
The thing is, even if Giles does have different opinions on what to do with Spike what wins wars is discipline. It was on him to respect the chain of command regardless.
I don't hate Giles for trying to kill Spike along with Wood. I expect it. He's an original Scooby Member and they stupidly put themselves higher up on their pedestals than all other characters on the show do. Buffy admitted that about herself in 'Conversations with Dead People.' The other three haven't admitted it, but they act the same way nonetheless.
What I hate is that just before Giles left, in Tabula Rasa', he told Buffy "I've taught you all I can about being a slayer" then in this episode goes behind her back, even to the point of keeping her busy (premeditation), and tries to justify his actions by saying, "You need to learn-" after telling her she was the general of the army and had taught her all he had to tell her. Its a good thing Buffy only cut him off with the last line of the episode (an applause worthy moment for me). Its a good thing this universe isn't the Game of Thrones universe as Buffy would have the right to kill Giles (and Wood) by beheading. Giles cannot teach Buffy if he's taught her everything he knows. He is officially a "traitor" along with Wood. She is doing things without his approval now. And he shows in this episode that he cannot handle what aren't his decisions. Buffy has a point on why Spike is being kept around and it is sad that Giles can't at least temporarily get past it for the war they are all fighting. The viewer has always seen Giles through Buffy's high school eyes and now that S6 and the growing up story Giles was pushing her towards in that season has happened, he's retconning everything he's told her for six seasons to push his own views.
Also, not all characters look at the biting as sexual. It depends on the person AND situation.
The jacket is not his however it does belongs to his mother so therefore he also has the right to take it.
I’m what world did Giles think Woods could take Spike LOL. It was more of a death wish for Woods
The principal learned how powerful spike is, I'll give him a pass on a account I killed his mom, classic
"The mission is what matters" echos "Your beneath me"
Who would you prefer as a friend before they became vampires - Spike or Angel? To be fair, Woods and Spike had a fair fight. Woods did not try to just murder him. He displayed a sense of honor which is sadly lacking in both Giles and Xander.
Nikki was 16/17 when she had Robyn and died when she was 22.
The irrational blind spot grows larger.
Andrew Hine I agree
Spike turning his mom into a Vampire is a nod to Anne Rice's "The Vampire Lastat" who turns his mother, Gabrielle, who is dying of cancer, into a Vampire. The result is interesting and disturbing has a lasting affect on the character, but this version, in my opinion, is more realistically what would happen if one did that.
They're different universes with different rules and also the second person Lestat turns his friend/lover Nicholas turns out to be a disaster.
What changed with Giles?
1. Spike has his chip removed.
2. Giles found out the trigger was active.
These facts drastically change the potential danger spike posed to the group (pun not intended)
And Giles didn’t value spike as valuable soldier against the first like buffy did. Probably because ‘the first’ already made spike it’s bitch and loads of innocent people died.
Did Shan ever talk about why she keeps starting new shows when she hasn’t finished the first one and is doing about 2-3 episodes a month for it?
Not complaining. Just curious. Obviously she can watch whatever she wants in whatever order she wants.
SolidSnake8295 probably trying to stretch it out since it’s almost over. This year is the shows Gotham’s last season and they literally have 2 episodes left and it’s not returning for another month.
I can't speak to other shows in general, but every time she has slowed down on Buffy, it has been at my request, and I've usually had to fight her on it to get it.
Part of it is because I select the watch order and I wanted certain beats to hit at certain points for maximum suspense/hype, because I'm evil. Part of it is that I needed to cut back a bit on editing and 3/week is easier than 4/week, especially since she was gracious enough to do Gravity Falls for me (at my insistent begging) and I'm beginning the work of editing those as well. And of course the periodic weeks off is just because she's my friend and I missed playing games with her. :) Not to mention she really does run herself ragged, she needs to slow down and smell the flowers from time to time.
And yes, if I'm completely honest, the business aspects of it (showing the new shows to keep people before the old show ends where they might have left without knowing she was going to do it otherwise) were in my head a bit, and I spoke to her about that. I don't know how much credence she gave it in terms of ultimately doing what I asked.
Plus its fun to have a few different shows to watch.. lol
Yes, I very much enjoyed this reaction! As you laughed at all the right places - the whole convo in Woods' office over what's in Spike's head, just-vamped William telling Dru he wanted to bring Mother along - and were shocked at Giles' betrayal of Buffy and the splintering of their relationship, I wanted to call it a perfect reaction. Robin's motivation is, of course, understandable, as is Giles' concern about the trigger; but actively deceiving Buffy (in the name of trying to take out the strongest fighter they have aside from her) and distrusting her judgement was a still a surprising, disturbing turn for Giles. (And, history would prove, a complete mistake.) (I was a little surprised, still, at just _how_ mad you were at Giles afterwords, though ; ) ) [edit for typo]
i’m just now noticing that when a vampire yk makes its vamp face they’re eyebrows disappear.😂
I love the way Wood gets completely confused about Spike's history since the Initiative.
7:16 You're coughing up blood, and not a small amount, you're not all right.
20:50 The vampire version of his mother certainly thinks he has an Oedipus/Oedipal complex which would explain him turning her despite is usually being like a sexual act. The Oedipus complex might also explain his obsession with Dru, effectively the mother of his vampire self.
spike and buffy are right in this situation. woods (although understandable) needed to move the fuck on and giles needed to wake up the fuck up and realize how much of an asset spike was and that he can’t always make decisions for buffy. she is the slayer and it’s her choice who she wants around her.