Acorn to Arabella - Journey of a Wooden Boat - Episode 85: Glue Failure
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 сер 2024
- With a project like this, there are always going to be ups and downs. The key is trying to stay up beat and finding a way around the road bumps.
We've been greatly slowed down this summer by the work of figuring out the prop shaft assembly which has required a lot of machining which we needed help with. Now, we are back to the planking and we have run into another issue. The Resorcinol glue we had bought for the planking this summer turned out to have gone bad on us and now we are experiencing glue failures on planks we were hoping to get on the boat this week.
It has been frustrating but it just means we need to move ahead with other tasks and just wait for some fresher glue and come up with a system to help them cure properly. But in the mean time, we can bore the stern post to accept the prop shaft assembly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sign up for our email newsletter: eepurl.com/hn3Qyv
Acorn to Arabella is a boat building project taking place in Granby, Massachusetts. Steve and Alix started as amateur boat builders building their own 38' wooden boat in their backyard: designer William Atkin's Ingrid with a Stormy Petrel's gaff rig. These videos follow the journey from tree felling, to lumber milling, to lofting, to the lead keel pour and beyond-sharing details of the woodworking, carpentry, metal smithing, tool building, and tool maintenance that wooden boats command. This ultimate DIY project will continue well past launch, when they will travel and learn to cruise aboard the boat that they've built. Just kidding about all that, this channel is about a Siberian Laika named Akiva.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acorn to Arabella wishlist:
www.acorntoarab...
Jamestown Distributors Referral:
If you are going to shop at Jamestown Distributors, please consider using our Total Boat referral code:
totalboat.refr....
FOLLOW US:
Patreon: / acorntoarabella
Instagram: / acorntoarabella
Facebook: / acorntoarabella
Website: www.acorntoarab...
Super job guys! Not many people would be that scientific about getting to the bottom of a problem. You isolated the issue instead of making assumptions. That's one reason I like watching you build Arabella. The lows are worth it, and help us realize that life will always have highs and lows. Love your personal strength.
Hi guys -- great work on the boat! I'm not a boat builder but I do a lot of similar kinds of wood work for the aircraft industry; including those scarf joints. I've had the same problems that you're having and it all came down to three things. 1. Age of glue. Shelf life of a lot of these glues is not more than a few months and it starts to degrade (even if it's stored properly). 2. Temperature! Much below 70 degrees during the cure time and you start having big problems. 3. Glue starvation: it looks like your clamps may have been a little too tight. The clamps are squeezing the glue out of the joint and leaving too little to do the job. Clamp pressure is more of an art than a science with a lot of these projects, but it looks to me like at least some of your joints showed classic glue starvation. Keep up the great work!
Adding a comment so the algorithm puts this at the top. Spot on observations.
Totally agree with you. Clamping pressure is very important. Curious to see what the dealyo is.
Do you have any thoughts about the joints on the planks that are already attached to the boat?
Recorsinol, from what I've heard on other channels, requires higher temps to cure, but also requires high pressure clamping. Don't know this to be a fact, personally, but I've heard this stated on several other boat building channels. I'm thinking the clamping done here may not be enough. Could be the ratio of the mix as well. Check and see if the ratio should be done with weight or volume measurments.
Even so the glue should perform better without such constrained conditions. Those are incredibly important joints.
I'm a sailor and a Const. QC inspector . I've watched your Project since cutting down the trees . I've been impressed at your attention to detail from the beginning , keep it up Arabella is being well founded , definitely going to be a fine sailboat .
There are so many reasons I click the "Like" button on each of your videos. I especially love when the editor elects to speed up the video, the soundtrack is consistent with the activity being shown but at regular speed...i.e., no chipmunking! Way to go, team....
Albeit harder to work with, the Oak will make Arabella damn near bulletproof below the waterline. Great work guys, as always. I'm still playing catch-up but have been blown away by the work so far. I found your channel roughly a week ago and have been watching it at work.
Cheers and welcome!
That was a good catch guys. Checking the off-cuts for joint strength = excellent process. Built in quality assurance.
Well done.
Both of your "even keel" attitudes are inspiring. Keep on trucking!
I used to hang with the home built aircraft crowd. Resorcinol is popular with them for the same reasons you chose it. I used to think making up sample tags for every glue session was a little overkill... until I saw one fail. If you're going to bet your life on a glued joint you have to *know* it set up right.
Over 90% of small personal aircraft are "homebuilt"
@@BUSTRCHERRI Yup, and every year keeping a factory built plane in certification gets more expensive. The only way I'll ever own a plane or a boat is to build it myself.
Saw this on the wooden boat forum, for what it's worth:
"I discovered a tiny strip of construction paper (find some that measures 0.005" using a micrometer) placed here and there will prevent overclamping and a thin glue line. I tested this out over a few weeks, did some research on construction paper materials, measured glue lines after cutting into them on the band saw, and the paper strips work very well for me. No more guessing about clamp pressure and for big timber w/ warps, the glue line is consistently 0.005"."
Interesting!
exactly what i was thinking.. all the glue was squeezed out of the joint.. i was thinking they might be able to create shallow grooves in the scarf surface.. so there is less complete squeeze out.. it could be done with a power planer. by having a machinist with access to a tool post grinder to create some 0.005 highs and lows on the blade tips. perhaps only 0.0025 highs and lows.. as long as one side of the scarf is cut in one angle and the other cut in the other.. or just one side flat.
Hi Guys, I have been a shipwright and carpenter for over 40 years, believe me there is no such thing a glue! The best stuff there ever was... a treacle type substance boiled on the stove and it was made of animal origin (horse/cow hooves) stuck like shit! Used a lot by furniture makers. Banned in UK some years ago over fear of disease scares (anthrax I think) these days everything glued falls apart in two minutes. Nice work keep up the project.
Bollocks! Animal glues are still available in the UK, many a dead animal is boiled up to make what is the best adhesive for a furniture maker who is in to veneering.
As for using it in boat building it wouldn't survive as it would provide a tasty snack for all sorts of creatures.
While you have access in the 'bilges' I would consider adding a Butt Block on the inside of every scarf joint, below or near the waterline, wherever they land between the frames. If they land on a frame there's less of an issue as the plank/frame fixings will keep the joint together. A little time consuming but cheap insurance, the thought of one of those joints popping at sea doesn't bear thinking about!
@ 13:59 looking at the joint there wasn’t enough glue on joint. There was one small section where wood held and more glue. Like others have stated, looks like you are over clamping a smooth joint. Next test should be less pressure and let the glue gel a little before clamping. This lets glue soak into wood and with increased viscosity glue is less likely to be squeezed out of joint. Try a test with a 50 grit belt finish. This will double your glue surface area and help with squeeze out.
Laminating hardwoods with epoxy the same technique is used. Let the glue gel before clamping especially if not using additives like microfibers in epoxy. Always read all the literature for the glue your using. The west system book covers this technique but you wont find it written on the can. Resorcinol glue isn’t much different. ....professional carpenter of 30 years.
Yeah, but these old-school resorcinol type glues are specifically not like modern epoxies in that regard. Epoxy as you say, does need both deliberately low pressure, and often textured joint faces as well, for best strength and minimizing over-squeeze/starvation. (And that's not even mentioning the various thickeners called for in some situations, nor different formulation options of the Hardener component.)
Resorcinol-formaldahyde glues were always exactly the opposite (barring more recent chemistry developments I'm unaware of) : They require precisely-made tight-fit joints, and relatively high clamping pressure. Simply not enough glue in the joint in the first place, could still be a problem if done wrong. But in this case it would not be because of clamping pressure. This time of year I also suspect the temperature issue mentioned in the vid.
Hi guys really enjoy you videos. Working with resorcinol glues can certainly dent your confidence in gluing. Have had similar failures with this glue. However have also had good results. A company in New Zealand (Greenweld) were producing continuous lengths of joist material with 'green' softwood end finger jointed and glued with resorcinol but using Ammonia to 'hold back' the moisture in the wood to allow the glue to penetrate the wood fibres.Have used this method to produce scarf joints in wet timber and it works!
Having used resorcinol years ago on a boat trim and following the manufacturers instructions - cover both sides of the joint with glue allow 10 min for the glue to 'absorb' into the timber - apply more to bare patches, before bringing together for clamping! Gave good result.
For what you are trying with White Oak I would make sure the moisture content is below 18% the planed splice is slightly roughened with 80grit then experiment with off cut splices trying different approaches.
If all else fails change to Epoxy.
Best of luck.
John
We have used epoxi gluing and learned (the hard way) that some wood are not suiteble for epoxi. It will simply not stick so check if your epoxi works with your wood.Maybe you could use polyurethane glue? And we have also been recomended to make thick and rugged joints fixed but not clamped a very hard. because then the epoxy is pressed out. One method I have used is to put on a layer of epoxy then heat it with a "heating-gun" (I do not know what it is called in english - it blows very hot air) this is to suck the epoxy in to the wood. you can see small airbubbles comming to the surface during the process. this also kickstarts the process in the epoxy and shortens the gluing period. Good luck! and thank you for your nice channel! :-) Anders
The analysis is way more important than the failure. Master the problem.
I can see that your work area is concealed in plastic or maybe glass, as you know that a sealed plastic container with some stuff inside such as wet rugs, fresh plant leaves when exposed to sunlight or cold creates or triggers condensation, what happens is when moisture builds up inside your work area it is infinite meaning to say it can stick to almost anything, plus you have a machine inside your work area, machines has oil, lubricants. Machines emits oil residue in the air and when it mixes with moisture it will stick to almost anything. Oily moisture is bad for adhesion process such as what your working right now. A regulated temperature work area might be best to consider to prevent contamination. Remember, you guys are working on a critical part of the ship, you guys must perform your work with perfection and without any flaw! The integrity of the ship is in hands! Keep up the good work!
It failed on land, and not in the water.
THIS IS ALL THAT MATTERS
It failed and now you are taking measures to remedy.
Count your blessings guys, you could have gotten way further along in the project and found the joints letting go.
Can you imagine how much of a set back that would be.
When ever we had an issue like this at work we would always consider it a learning episode. Time to sit back and take stock. Figure out what failed and move ahead.
Great content.
The way you showed the roadworks and explained the background noise by increasing the volume prior the filming, was absolutely exceptional direction Alex. wd
After reading down through the 167 comments, the one thing I didn’t see mentioned was applying the glue to the surface of a timber of substantial mass that was too cold to start with. My experience with this type of glue requires attention to all of its idiosyncrasies, temperature( not only of the glue but also the temperature of the wood), starved glue joint from too much clamp pressure and or burnished surface, wicking ability of the surface, ,,,, and the phase of the moon, and so on.
Sounds like IT work, attention to detail, and the occasional lamb slaughter really makes things go far more smoothly. (also lamb is delicious)
LOL, phase of the moon, animal sacrifice - maybe these things really DO matter, the people who developed the craft of wooden boats, so many thousands of years ago, might have been on to something. (OK, probably not, but let's have a little fun hey?)
@@77gravity I dunno about you but I'm down for a ritual sacrifice under a full moon over a hot grill. I hope they break a wine bottle on her maiden voyage.
@@77gravity not if you are a sheep lol
I read a while ago to make a luck rabbits foot you have to sacrifice a rabbit @ a cemetery on a full moon night on Halloween hahaha the next time it will be a full moon on Halloween is 2020! So get your rabbits ready cause this only happens some 4-5 times every hundred years
Separate the faulty glue joins, rescarfe the timber, and rejoin , you only need to remove a mm/ 1/16 of an inch of material. And you will save the whole plank
Biscuits?
@@cheesequake8 -- Not on a scarf joint.
Correct.
Muffins?
Bacon!
What a great show you guys put on. I love the way you can show your successes and failures and take it with a grain of salt. I was a yacht engineer In the virgin islands and took care of a 83 foot trimaran that was made of wood and I did a lot of repairs and I did frame replacement while the boat was in the water. I used westsystems Epoxy that I would thin with a little acetone to get deeper penetration into the wood and I would test my joints and they never failed. I also worked in a sign shop making wooden signs when I was young and used a lot of resorcinol and it worked well.
You guys are actually making motivational videos. nose to the grind stone...
Every Home Depot and Lowes employee on the eastern seaboard: "CRAP! IT'S STEVE AND ALIX! HIDE ALL THE CLAMPS! TELL 'EM WE DON'T HAVE ANY!!"
Lolz!
Aramis419 as Norm use to say, you can’t have too many clamps
Nice work guys. Glad to hear you are keeping your chins up about the glue problems.
I don't get it. How can there be any failure at all when it comes to ship building? There's no reference books that can be read? Haven't we humans been building ships for like a thousand years or so? There's nothing in an old mariners library that might offer some tips and pointers or maybe tell you the best glue to use?
I agree with wijr77 about clamps possibly being to tight. Also noticed when glue came out of container it flowed nice at start of pour but quickly showed a big clump coming out. Possibly glue too old and starting to cure already before being used.
After our tests, we determined that the issue was the age of the resorcinol that we had. Once we had a fresh batch, the issue was resolved.
No matter which glue you use the pressure being applied on the glued joint must not squeeze all the glue out. Since it really is impossible to see inside the joint you're making, you have to somehow limit how much pressure is actually being used to squeeze the joint or place some sort of shimming material in the glued area so that even if you tighten your clamps too much the spacers will prevent glue starvation. I've experienced this problem and after asking other wood workers what they did to prevent over tightening I decided to take a short length of band saw blade which I mounted in a grooved piece of wood and with this scrapping tool I worked the surfaces to be jointed until both side were thoroughly scratched which created a rough surface which held glue and no matter how tight I applied pressure to my clamps - I did not squeeze the glue out. This worked for me and although you could probably find better ways to deal with glue starvation I think that and cold may be your problem. Sorry Im writing this two years too late but I hope you solved your problem with glue - I know exactly how frustrating joint failure can be.
Sorry to hear about the glue problem. Better now than later though.
I watched my father build a small boat in the 70s . He had "ONE"single power tool an 8"belt drive table saw and many many planes . One was grooved glue plane , this would for sure improve you glue joints especially since you are using oak it doesn't seem to absorb glue as well as other species. And you glue looks very thick. Good luck.
cracking up at the dragonfly rescue. thought i was maybe the only one that goes to trouble to free the innocents. mosquitos on the other hand...
Your resilience and problem-solving are amazing. Your keep on keeping on spirit is inspiring.
The great thing is the weakness was detected in good time.
Came here to say this, this is the most important thing. A glue failure in the boathouse is a minor inconvenience. A glue failure at sea is a tragic disaster.
If you decide to go with epoxy glue, be sure to size your joints first with unthickened resin, then glue up. Use just enough clamping pressure at that time to bring the parts together, but do not squeeze out all the glue. The reason for using this approach is that the wood will starve the joint of resin without being sealed first. Check this out with the boys at West System, and or, read Mead's book if you haven;t already done so. Been following all your vids, good luck to you.
Hi Guys, The first thing I would do is ask the glue manufacturer for their advice. I have done this with several different manufacturers and found their technical guys unfailingly helpful. Second, you have identified two of the problems you are having: (a) it's important not to use glue past it's shelf life and (b) resourcinol glues are temperature dependent, if the temperature is too low they don't work. The third one is clamping pressure. You are simply not getting sufficient pressure onto the joints with the "C" clamps you are using - especially the deep frame clamps which will simply bend the more you tighten the screw but the pressure remains the same. I suggest you make up some clamping "O" frames from heavy steel section and then use hydraulic bottle jacks to apply the pressure - you may need two per joint. This is how I glue scarf joins and have yet to get a single failure. You could also try a different glue - I have used urea formaldehyde glue, specifically Aerolite 306 for boat building without any failures. It's a powder glue mixed with water and applied to one side of the joint only, the hardener (formic acid) is applied to the other side of the joint - if you can obtain it in the USA its well worth a try.
Hello chaps, such brilliant work you are all doing, the glue problem was fascinating especially the almost laboratory analysis of the joints, new and old glue inside and outside great thinking.
I was a little concerned about the boring of the propeller shaft hole, and the eventual alignment of the gearbox output shaft, I assume you had already thought of that one having noticed how you think well ahead of upcoming problems.
I love seeing Akiva, what a lovely laid back dog keeping an eye on you all,keep on with the good work.
Thanks for watching, Terry!
The best part of my Friday morning. Good luck with the glue problem and God bless.
You may want to contact the manufacturer of the glue. Could have been some bad batches that got past QC or at the very least they may be able to offer some solutions.
23baquino Good advice!
Yes, contact the manufacturer. They should be out there trying to find out what happened.
I learned (the hard way) that two part glues and coatings have a limited shelf life. Everything may seem OK, but it never hardens or fails in some other way. Now I only use freshly bought materials that haven't been in inventory for years for my projects.
A bit scary. Wouldn't want to have the planks pop out in the middle of the Pacific. Is this the best type of glue? I only know regular woodglue (or a water tight variant) and that is stronger than wood. The other factor is the type of joint. Long grain to long grain is strongest and the only thing that I would dare for critical joints. Your scarf joints are partial end grain.
Or at the very least a refund or a replacement for the crappy glue.
Stephen and Alix, I would advise contacting the manufacture and put them onto this failure. Maybe they'd be willing to send out someone with some new stuff to see the testing and find a suitable compensation for your time and effort and their product failure.
I think about the multiple periods in history where fleets of huge wooden ships were built by hand. The materials, know-how, logistics and problem-solving required to do that are mind-boggling. This makes it hard to listen to people who suggest we're the smartest, most enlightened generation in history. Those shipbuilding guys back in the day must have been an army of geniuses.
TheMrTTT Too you could say that, you could also ask the same ‘geniuses’ to build a super tanker or cable laying ship and see how they get on straight off the bat. The men of the time would have had an endless supply of labour back then and the ships wouldn’t last decades.
@@mancheetah5610 I doubt they had access to the materials to accomplish those things. My comment was a simple tip if the hat to the really bright people on who's shoulders we stand.
Regardless of what generation of builders were creating these amazing boats, what my mind can't grasp is the courage that the sailors had to venture out on one into the ocean. Just thinking that every screw, bolt, and plank had to hold up to mother nature's violent storms and huge waves would terrify me. I can't swim. 😳
@@gilbertfranklin1537 Neither could most of those sailors.
@@gilbertfranklin1537 - There's an old sailors saying that if you want to be sure to safely reach your destination port, you should only sign on with captains that can't swim.
Good to find out now and not 100 miles out to sea. One of the comments mentioned making test joints to confirm the glue is still good. It might not be a bad idea since you will be working on a lot of these planks in the future. You guys are doing a great job! way better than I could just keep up the good work and all of us will keep watching.
With all you have at stake I'd reach out to the glue manufacturer. They must have tech support who could help you diagnose the issue with a fix they stand behind. They have a lot at stake here too if they have a faulty product and the bad publicity you could bring to their doorstep. You guys have a lot of leverage, use it! Time to get the pros involved and get them to back their product.
Fasten butt block, boys. Fasten butt blocks. There is no shame in mounting a butt block on the back of each plank scarf joint unless the scarf falls on a rib!! Springing a plank offshore will send Arabella to the bottom of the deep blue. Why risk it all on glue? She is looking great. Love your videos!!
Darn, that 20 minutes went by quickly! Nice work, crew!
Doesn't it ALWAYS?! It's definitely a nice thing about Fridays, but it's over so quickly. (Hah, reminds me of my first wife!)
Confidence: drilling a giant hole in your boat.
Keep up the great work yall
If you haven't already, I think you could benefit from some heavy-duty omni rollers where you are using those outdated roller balls. The balls will rust and gunk up very quickly whereas hd omni rollers will give better support on closer spacing and are stainless and super-strong plastics. I am not involved in selling or benefiting in any way.
Ya'll are true craftsmen. I love watching the progress. Keep it up!
A general tip, when you are about to do something major, and irreversible. Do a practice run first. Set up a mock-up of the job, using scrap and whatever, and (in this case) drill the hole that you want in the boat. This way, you can practice what you intend, make changes, test again if needed, and then when you have all the ducks in a row, do the real one.
I have used this for many years, especially in woodworking. It also applies to making multiple parts - make a couple of extras (if you can afford the materials) from the start - the later ones will almost always be the better product, and the earlier ones end up as spares, or just practice pieces that can be discarded.
One day is not enough for some chemical reactions. My car paint takes months to get completely hard. Do a test at high heat for 5 dsys before breaking it.
Agreed at least 3 to 5 days
Yep, the data sheets say 2 - 3 days before machining or subsequent work. So I would leave it longer before testing. I also think there was not enough "open" time before assembly, allowing the glue to penetrate, and also far too much glue, judging by the squeeze out. I think the suggestions about sanding a planed surface are also correct.
Woo hoo the weekend splinters we all enjoy. Wow that glue may as well have been preschool PVA.
My jaw dropped at the title...I feel for you guys because of the doubt you may be feeling concerning the jointed planks already installed! I think you're right- With the forces they are currently under, they would have popped by now if the joints were questionable. Can't wait til next Fri!
I personally would back up all the existing joints with butt blocks of oak and with same grain orientation. Then probably just go with epoxy for the rest, or conventional butt blocks.
@@davidfrid4447 The long grain to long grain scarf being used is incredibly strong. It should end up stronger than the surrounding uncut plank portions. I think staying the course with added heat during curing will be the ticket. I believe there is a plan in place for adding that heat :) Do you also follow on Instagram? I highly recommend it!
@@makeryguy I think you are right but I am uneasy about knowing the state of the garboard and firs broad strakes that are already installed if that batch of glue was old or otherwise compromised
@@davidfrid4447 yeah maybe reinforce the ones already installed. Oof I want nothing but success for these guys. They're SO thorough, and it goes to show how good product performance is paramount. In this case the guys must feel really good knowing that they've already ruled out 99% of what might have gone wrong by doing their homework. That's why my heart sunk! NOOOO! Don't fail them GLUE!
@@makeryguy Absolutely - been doing a
bit more reading and maybe resorcinol is is a better adhesive than epoxy for oak with some obvious care of joint construction and this possible issue of shelf life considered OUCH
Well that glue failure was heart breaking and I feel so sorry for you guys! You handled it well and carried on which just shows how good you are. We always used UF109 glue but that was a very long time ago and it never failed. I check every day to see you guys add planks and today was the day :(. It's only seven days to wait so I wish you well. Thanks for the video :)
Along with others, I think you are over-clamping on a very smooth joint, resulting in too much squeeze-out and a starved joint.
Allowing more time to cure could help too, plus keeping the resin and wood temperatures within the manufacturer's limits. But it's good to see you doing the testing!
You guys have some awesome viewers because there's lots of good advice on your glue issue in here!
I find it quite bizarre that both Acorn to Arabella and Salt and Tar are having the road next to their builds relaid in the same weeks release of video's.
Conspiracy theory time!
@@jamestheotherone742 Could they be on the same sound stage, maybe the one they used for the moon landings? LOL
I think your expecting why too much from a glued scarf joint. Put up the planks in individually and glue the scarfs with a cleat behind it. It would be much stronger and it won't be reliant on just the glue. This type of joint in a boat I think should always have a cleat behind it if it doesn't fall on rib. Even if you got it to work, what about later after years of pounding at sea, I say, why even take the chance.
Its good you had the mindfulness to check the joint.
I think the stress test you did for the glues are obscenely overkill, as the bars will act as a fulcrum with a pivot in the middle of the glue line. Length of level is about 0.75m your side of the pivot and 0.1m other side
Back of the envelope calculation 10 m s^-2 *70kg * 0.75m = F * 0.2m => F = 5250 N
Cross section of the gluing area is about 0.1m by 0.2m = 0.02m^2 => tensile forces of 5250/0.02 = 262500 Pa
This is approaching the limit for resorcinol.
The point is that you want a failure when testing, but it shouldn't be the glue line as happened here. It should be timber failure. But the tests were certainly far too soon - should wait a couple of days for full cure - especially at those temperatures.
For bedding rifles, I learned years ago to store epoxy in the warm house, not the cold shop. What matters in two part epoxy is the temperature at which they were mixed.
Great video guys! Thanks
When the wood swells with the water it’s going to put more stress on those glue joints. So careful boys.
Resorcinol has been used on wooden boats for some 75 years now.. if this was actually a real problem, it would have been well known for a long time now.
I have been watching these videos mostly quietly, You guys do a tremendous amount of research and planning before you do your work. This is definitely the recipe for success. In the cabinet shops when I was young, Guys had lead aprons and portable microwaves that they would use on big glue ups. I believe that is the method employed for gluing up the PT boats. It was for speed rather than quality I think.
Glue joint failure may be in part due to the toughness of white oak. If you applied the same force to cedar or mahogany and the wood failed would that be better?
I recall Resorcinol having a shelf life because it off gasses formaldehyde I think. Guys used to get 'sunburns' from working in an enclosed space with it all day long because of that. The best brand used to be welwood. Try calling the manufacturer, keeping the joint and glue warm, maybe scuff the surface well with some 60 grit across and with the grain. I am guessing you heard this but the lore always was that epoxy and oak don't mix. This came from boat builders and I have never used epoxy on any oak as some people have suggested.Maybe its only a legend
Great work, you project and tenacity inspires me. Thanks
The guys have mentioned in other comments that the problem was shelf life. The batch they got had recently passed its' shelf life. (And yes, they've said the reason for going with resorcinol was because of epoxy's bad reputation with oak.)
Great work lads👍
Yeah, resorcinol is reputed to be very finicky. I've actually had a lot of success using PL Premium. Or my old standby, MAS epoxy. I assume you roughed up the surfaces with sandpaper before gluing? Mill glazing (i.e., from the planer) will also prevent a good bond, no matter what you use.
Aye, and down south some refer to it as case hardening, Imagine that. It's the hammering the wood gets, especially from dulled tools. What tubules there are in white oak can definately be slammed shut. Good idea to open up the surface, with hand sanding and hand inspection.
18ftLyman in the old days before modern PVA and Epoxy adhesives the old time guys used animal glues and when doing veneer work there was a specific plane called a toothing plane which had a near vertical blade with teeth cut in it which was used as the last operation in the joint preparation, not only to give a roughened surface, but to give a larger and thicker area for the glue line. I think something like that would be an advantage on these scarf joints. This also would obviated he glue starvation that some think is happening.
My friends and I raised in Mass., used to say " He really scarfed that cheese burger down" ! or "I scarfed down the whole pizza" ! I wonder where that came from. lol. Hearing "scarf" reminded me of my younger happier years..Peace.
Maybe it would help if you rough up the surface of the scarfs to allow the glue to grab on a bit more. Could be the surfaces were too smooth and led to glue starvation.
Yeah in the paint business we call that Mill glaze and it affects paint adhesion glue adhesion Etc etcetera
I can imagine how tough it is to read comments. I'm sure you know, but I'd like to mention, when a glue join fails, if the wood surface is exposed and smooth, then the problem is the lack of "tooth" in the surface of the wood. Worse, talking yourself into a position in which you believe that other glue joints, which are more or identical, are sufficient to the task, is a decision you and any guests will have to live with. Anyhoo, I'm off to dot my own i's and cross them t's. Shows great, for many reasons.
Makhoe van der Vlugt That makes sense!
Problem is, while your comment about 'tooth' is correct for some glues, including epoxy (which they're *not* using), it isn't true for resorcinol, which they *are* using (because epoxy is a poor glue for white oak). Resorcinol isn't a gap-filling glue, and it requires very smooth joints, clamped with a lot of pressure, to ensure a good bond.
@@Garryck-1 I stand corrected. Is it the-smoother-the-better, or is there a preferred surface finish? And what about humidity, and natural oils present in the wood?
@@makhoe1 - That I couldn't tell you.. I only understand its use in broad outline, it's not a glue I plan on using for my own boat. Can't speak as to humidity, but I believe the oils in oak are the main problem for epoxy, so I'm guessing they're not an issue for resorcinol.
Well I haven’t read any comments but I’m sure that this reflects others sentiments, better in the boat house to fail than on the water. It’s a kick in the gut for sure for whatever reason but on the plus side those broadstrakes held like you said under very high twist load.
Saturday morning coffee and Acorn to Arabella nothing better.
Story of my woodworking life. It barely gets warm enough here in summer for most glues, maybe an exaggeration but as soon as autumn hits it's pretty certain I need to bring every glueup inside or it just won't set. I see Resorcinol has a minimum temp of 20c from what I can see online - that's hard to achieve!
A future problem your build method is creating: in time you WILL need to replace planks, these full length planks will add to the complexity of replacement.
Having multiple planks with them ending on different ribs makes for easier replacement, and actually better flex in the hull without damage.
Arguments can be made for both planking methods, both are viable. My point about repairs being more difficult is the biggest againts your chosen method.
I’ve had good results using cotton flock filler to prevent expelling too much resin when clamping ..
Another great video, but of the past 3 videos, there has been no sightings of Akiva...Would like to have scenes with the true boss of the show, please!
You should immediately contact the manufacturer and send the glue and the activator/hardener back to them for testing. Also include a copy of video to validate the failure tests. Just a thought... it may be your activator.
I just finished a small boat build not too long ago, used many white oak pieces of wood throughout the build and used epoxy, used a penetrating epoxy first then sanded with 80 grit then applied a slightly thickened epoxy with milled glass fibers. I really don't know the long term performance of the joints but for the time period that I was assembling the boat the joints were bulletproof, the wood failed before the joint.
Well, long-term is how the guys are thinking.. Arabella is planned to still be around 100 years from now. Which is why they went with resorcinol instead of epoxy.
@@Garryck-1 In my application I didn't really care so much about long term either I guess, I wanted something strong to hold the scarf joints together then ultimately rely on bronze fastening to hold the joint together. So I guess if the epoxy fails at some point it won't matter, it did its job.
Perhaps over-pressure on clamps forcing clue out, mirror surface on planed wood little contact, cold ambient temperature and moisture content both internal and external, or quite simply a bad or out of date batch of glue, all create issues when gluing up. But a well researched and thought out build process, if my apprentices were as able and diligent i'd have been a happy man. lol
A lot of glues and paints are sensitive to widely varying storage temps. Always store them in a moisture-free area where the temperature stays constant and cool (not cold). Inside a reasonably insulated building inside a cupboard is best. Keep them off the floor as conduction will cause huge temperature variations at night even in warm climates. Your build tent is probably the worst possible place you could store any of your chemicals. You are right to only buy in small batches as and when you need it. Any chemicals stored for over a few months outside of absolutely ideal conditions should be considered suspect and recycled or tossed out. And yes definitely key (rough up) the glueing area - smooth surfaces wont work properly and create a weak joint.
We keep anything temperature sensitive in the house. Resorcinol prefers a smooth joint.
So I figure you might want to do the stress test on the new glue but this time find a way to keep them warmer. I would try to find an idea temp range for it to set off best. A box with a space heater with a thermostat and try 75, 80, 85, and 90 maybe. Also the woods temp might be a factor clamping cold wood even in a warm box might not work either. My guess temp is the most important variable but the more variables you control it improves your chances to find the best setting needed for the strength of joint you need.
by watching your test feel may give a question of thought that using the plainer could be making the timber too smooth. would like you to try using a rougher surface may help as the fibres will bind better. this is only a suggestion to try solve problem. best regards that you find a resolve.
Resorcinol needs to have smooth surfaces, it does not fill gaps like epoxy. Epoxy doesn't work well on white oak either - you can cheat by pocking the surface, but I wouldn't use it for an application that could experience stress like planking.
@@alexnagle575 West System G-Flex will bond white oak adequately. I would throw an electric blanket over the joint for the cure. I also like to locate scarfs so that they land on frames so I can further secure them with fasteners through the scarf into the frame.
Todd Dunn an electric blanket is a HUGE fire hazard!!
@@todddunn945 - for boats that have to cross oceans and weather storms, "adequately" doesn't even come *close* to cutting it. Do the job right, or don't bother doing it at all. Arabella is intended to last over a century, not just a couple of decades.
@@Garryck-1 adequately in this sense means that the epoxy bond is stronger than the wood. I have been using epoxy to bond wood in the marine environment for 25 years and have never had a glue joint failure. That includes ALL the frames in my 33 foot wooden boat which are white oak and were laminated with G-Flex 10-12 years ago and are in perfect condition now. Getting a good bond with epoxy comes down to technique.
Fish Scale for your joint testing will help give a better break pressure. And with your adventures on the water a great tool for Tarpin or other great fish in the 30 lbs or greater range. 😄
I have noticed that when you are clamping it looks like you maybe clamping down to much you still need to leave a good amount of glue in the joint and not squeeze it all out we dont clamp down to hard so we have plenty of glue for the joint
Screw that.. id be nervours as all hell about the planks already hung. Butt blocks and bolts.. can't go wrong
Yep, that was my thought with a traditional, planked boat.
If hardener was left outside and temp got too low may have ruined both bottles. Chemically it is temp sensitive.
my guess also. low storage temp is known to ruin epoxy as well.
interesting
As the glue was being poured into the mixing pot its texture looked a little uneven. A sure sign of aging adhesives and resins.
Yeah, I saw that clump pour out and knew it was already catalyzing in that container. 6 month old or more for it to do that. The glue also looked kinda thin on application also. Temp is everything with that type of product.
Approx 50 Videos ago, I raised the question if glue will really stand the test of time, I still have my doubts, too often we hear, sure no problem
I’d be going with West Systems epoxy + correct thickener(if needed)by the same mfg. Never ever have I been let down by their products. YES it’s pricey but you always get more than you pay for in performance and consistency. Even when it’s obviously too old(dark) it still out performed the nearest competitor (non critical project). I don’t want to think about all the work I had to tear out when using another name brand that was bad. Do tests as you have been and do note recommended temperatures and curing time. Remember, epoxy is exothermic (needs warmth) if it doesn’t hit the range for the given hardener type, it will never reach spec strength regardless of time. Mix well, then a little more. When epoxy has hardened, oils rise to the surface and this must be removed by sanding and or quick wipe of a fast dry solvent before the next application. If the epoxy is still tacky it’s ok for the next application. Try wiping the fresh wood joint areas with different types of fast evaporating solvents(xylene?)to perhaps remove moisture, oils and saps. A good sign of adherence is when the wood fails and not the glue. Test, test, test. The middle of the ocean in rough seas is not a good place to test. You may want to test if there’s a bad interaction at a juncture of old glue to the a new epoxy. If you ever must use penetrating epoxy, never ever use epoxy that has volatiles in it as a thinning agent. The only acceptable penetrating epoxy I have found is Git Rot. Good luck guys.
I have used S1 by System three {used to be Industrial Formulators) and it penetrates well and I believe improves the adhesion pf epoxy over coats but am not sure it makes much difference in the end I have tested epoxy joints and it is the wood that splits/rips out before failure along the seam.
I suggest West Systems with the micro silica added to prevent glue starved joints. The tech support at West will be an excellent resource.
Resorcinol glues require very perfect scarf joins and as stated below you can stave the glue joint by over clamping, tip wet the wood first. Plus resorcinol glue is old school. Why not use an Epoxy ... T-88? BTW, I make scarf joints on wood aircraft wing spars.
Check with the the adhesive manufacturer for help. I do know from experience that humidity can be a critical factor in how some adhesives cure. Your first scarf joints were maybe done during a more humid time of the year. Expiry dates on the product label are also not to be ignored.
A regular 5:1 epoxy thickened with West System 403 micro fibers would be a stronger joint. Also a sanded surface, then cleaned with acetone will work best.
I would agree and remember that the test of leverage on the bench is quite extreme (leading edge separation followed by crack migration along the joint) it would be interesting to see how epoxy would fair in that test. Also the existing resorcinol scarfs could be backed up by butt blocks of same wood type (oak) and grain orientation, any expansion/contraction due to moisture content changes will be equal and co-linear and should not effect the mechanical connection. Added peace of mind.
Epoxy and oak have a very poor track record of joint failures. Hence why they went with resorcinol instead.
After gluing the scarf joints throw an electric blanket over it all night. Good Luck‼️👍⛵️ Vinny 🇺🇸 PS, Looks like those failed joints are glue starved. Too much clamp pressure⁉️
Guys, I think it's time to take a break. You have some very important decisions to make now that the integrity of the garboard planks is in doubt. Clear your minds, and formulate your roadmap to solve this. Now may be a good time to "trust the pie."
Don't listen to this twat. Keep going.
That is a major bummer. WARMTH guys.
Guys glue was noticeably lumpy when you were pouring into mixing tub. I would also like to add if it were my boat I would prefer to have all scarf joints facing to the stern on the external over lap then should it fail at sea at least the water pressure not shoveling water into the hull and putting extra strain on the plank.
It makes you wonder about the rest of the joints
That hurt, all that work and the glue fails. More on the job learning experience. I hope it doesn't take too long to get some fresh glue in.
Dang, yeah, from what I've heard on various channels, this type of epoxy needs higher heat and higher pressure to set/"go off" properly. Sensitive stuff. Hope you can figure it out. I'd hate to see you guys have to wait until mid spring, or longer, to continue planking.
Good thing you found the bad glue.
Watching since the beginning, I've often wondered if you think boats were built to the same degree of precision 150 year ago as Arabella is receiving? In your shoes I would try to be as precise as you are; it only seems prudent when your lives may depend on the construction quality. Just wondering how typical 1800s boat construction quality would compare to the nice fit you're putting into this build. OTOH, just to survive the sea suggests that boats have always been fitted pretty well. I fell off of the crest of a wave into the trough in a fiberglass boat about 30 years ago and it was an experience that will not be forgotten. It put a lot of stresses on the boat. I can only imagine the stresses absorbed on every fastener in the hull of a wooden boat.
I ran into the same problem as you with out of date resorcinol being supplied by the supplier. I complained and promptly got a replacement, but alas it too was out of date.
I used it on some boat seats and some were OK and some failed.
Resorcinol is difficult to acquire.
JIM
Alex is wearing a CIEE shirt! Great program!!
On the intro, from the look at the pile of sawdust and the sound of the saw, methinks you have a dull blade on your bandsaw. Now to watch the rest of the show ;)
Hey Guys,
As alot of other people mentioned I think the main problem with the faulty glue joints is the surface area. A good planer could create a pretty smooth surface, espacially if the it just got new blades. So the effective surface area of the the joint is pretty small compared to an joint of the same size but with rougher surface. So increasing the roughness factor could strenghten your joint by a ton. From what i know sanding the joint with rough sandpaper should leave you with a surface more than suitable for the task. Another way of facing this would be the use of an adhesive primer.
Futhermore warming the glue by keeping it in the House would not hurt either, from my practical experience a lot of epoxy raisins get really fishy when they are handled below a temperature of about 15°C (59F). Keeping the joints warm during their period of drying would also not hurt either. Most likely spacing out some pocket heaters or hot water bottles and wrapping them with some old blankets or towels could be enough to strenghen this joint. During internship, i saw pretty much the same technique beeing used to keep fresh epoxy joints warm.
But ill guess you will figure something out that will work.
I just wanted to say that I really like this whole project alot and I am always happy to watch a new episode aa the start of my weekend
Greettings from Germany and keep up the good work.
This is good comment. Again, in the south we use heat lamps or a bunch of photo lamps, but the idea is consistant; controll the temp.
Unlike epoxy, resorcinol isn't a gap-filling glue, and actually needs smooth, tight-fitting joints, and lots of clamping pressure to form a good bond. And the glue problem turned out to be that it had passed its shelf-life. It doesn't store as well as epoxy, because the formaldehyde evaporates out of it.
@@Garryck-1 Oh you are right prf adhesive no epoxy. Both Resins so atleast similar when it comes to woeking with them. But increasing the roughness if the surface area does not hurt prf adhesives either. A normal plainer gives you an Ra (Medium Roughness) of about 1-5 micro meter, while mist adhesives could utilize well more than 10 to 15 micro meters. The smother a surface is, the worse it is for an adhesive. Atleast if you are speaking of reasonable surface roughness. But you are right. The expired shelf life is far more critical, as the formaldehyde is necessary for it be able to form an strong bond.