I remember way back when Manny CA put this out, that was years back when powder coating was a new thing, he really got razzed about it in his comment's section from people saying "You don't know what you are talking about" I really felt sorry for him, he was one of the first to shed light on this thing. Glad you are doing a service to your viewing audience Walter. - Dave
Hi Dave. I hope you’re doing Ok buddy. I know what it’s like to be on the gimp list, believe me. I never saw Manny’s video on the topic, but he was right about it. I’ve been happy to be a part of the ‘research’ on the topic. Certainly something for powder coaters to consider, and more reason for us not to throw our lube-sizers away! Be well, my friend! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
seeing "this" for the first time connects me with a story I read this winter "The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story" which had a reference to bullets effectively "epoxied" to the case neck creating a real and potential worst case scenario - here the potential? for the vapor from some powders slowly reacting with and creeping through the bullet coating in contact with the case neck to glue the bullet to the case with potential extreme high pressure "ka boom" consequences. "A former Smith & Wesson employee from the period puts an even finer point on the lightweight bullet issue, by pointing out that some brands were more problematic than others: "The biggest contributor to the K-Frame model 19/66 barrel splitting issue was the Winchester 125gr JHP .357 ammo. I split barrels with this ammo in as little as 11 shots on a new gun. It had very high and erratic pressures caused by the bullet sealant. Pull forces to move the bullet out of the case were up to 385 pounds! Pressures would be crazy with that high a bullet pull force. Spilt barrels would happen quickly with this ammo." It’s hard to know if this was a persistent problem that stretched across many years, or just a spotty one that affected certain lots of ammunition, but it would help to explain some contemporary reports that hinted at inconsistencies across agencies, with some reporting high numbers of failures, while others encountered fewer."
Hi, James. Thanks for watching and for leaving this valuable comment. Another of our friends on UA-cam, BrokeLoader 2, discovered powder coating adhering to the case after several months. That, of course, is alarming for the same reason as described in the report you mention. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
I'll throw in another kink to the mystery . I've had some powder coated bullets stored for several years that were loaded with bullseye and coated with HF powder coat . When I took some apart to check the bases , they were all fine .
Interesting! Kinda sounds like the chemical composition of the HF stuff is more suited to PC than some of the others. More work to be done, for sure! That’s a great piece of info to share. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Good info Viejo! As far as I'm concerned chapter 1 on powder coating has already been published - powder coating is here to stay, This info contributes greatly to chapter 2 - The details to really fine tune the use of powder coating.
Great Video Walter. I saw some of those old videos and was amazed at the reaction. So now we know its Alliant's- Be 86, and Bullseye and Hodgen's Titegroup are the problem double base powders for PC projectiles. I only have Titegroup and will limit it to non PC projectiles. Thanks to you and others for these double base powder/powdercoat tests.
Interesting. I was curious about chemical reactions from combining smokless powder and coated bullets. I'm not a big fan of powder coating, mainly as I know so little about it. That said, about 4 years ago I bought two different colors of Hi-Tek, to attempt to learn more about this. Having no actual garage to work from, I baked the coated bullets in a new toaster oven atop an old workmate bench on my small open back porch. And mixed the chemical in the open air on said porch. I'd been warned of the dangers of the vapors produced from the mixture. I mixed according to the instructions, allowed drying on a newly made drying rack, made just for this process. Heated to the specific temperature, and monitoring was close. I did many with 2 or more coats. Again, according to the instructions. But ultimately, this entire endeavor was a failure. The results of this operation produced variable coverage, and 90% had visible bubbles and odd levels of coating. After two weeks of trying to perfect the operation, the results did not improve beyond the bubbles were reduced to 75%. Thus, I abandoned any further attempts to powder coat and disposed of the powders, and repurposed the hardware I was using to other things. I returned to using conventional sizing and lubrication of my cast bullets that I have used for well over a half a century. Reckon I'm an old dog that cannot learn new tricks.😒
Hi, Ranger. Thanks for checking in. Keep in mind that Hi-Tek is significantly different from powder coating. The material is way different, as is the application process. Our powder coat process is fast and easy, requires just one coat and the learning curve is short. Don’t give up on it. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸. Watch this video done recently by my friend CW Longshot. His process is similar to mine and most others: ua-cam.com/video/vzSMkpf5SCY/v-deo.html
I watched the video of CW's operation. Due to the fact that I have no "shop" I'd be unable to perform such a task. Plus, "Too many moving parts" as they say. I appreciate your taking the time, and the encouragement, but I would just be more frustrated. Guess it's hopeless. I'd best stay with what I know. But thanks for the support. Wade
It’s most definitely the high nitro-glycerin double based powders, the super low charge weight pistol/shotgun powders. I’ve had a cast 44 caliber 310 grain bullet coated black chrome from powder by the pound sitting in Ramshot enforcer for well over a year inside a old pill container. There has yet to be any differences in the coating.
Thanks for being so thorough in your testing. I have some 38spl loaded up with Clean Shot and was hoping you didn't have any adverse reactions. More good info to have!
@@viejo2a well, somebody sent me a bunch of 38 brass, so I got an itch and now have a few hundred to test and shoot with 6 or 7 powders loaded up. Thanks again, my friend!🇺🇸🔫👍
Hi, R. It’s a phenomenon we’ve known about for a while now, but despite our own private attempts at testing, still don’t have clear answers from the powder manufacturers to some of our remaining questions! Thanks for stopping by. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
It depends mainly on the type of the powdercoating itself, the colour has nearly no influence. Thermoplastic powdercoat is usually not solvent resistant. The powdercoat should be a Duroplastic or a highly weatherproof type. Important are also the curing temperature and time. I think the Dibutylphthalate (DBP, a plasticizer) and the Ethylacetate (a solvent) in H110, H380, Titegroup a.s.f. could weakens the powdercoating.
Absolutely, Ensam, which is why I included three different types of coatings as well as different colors of the same type. You are quite correct.. the pigments used in the various powder coats have no effect on the results. In order to most closely match the process utilized by the majority of bullet casters, all coatings were baked at 400 degrs F for 20 minutes. We found reactions with two distinct types of powder, but not with Hi-Tek coating. H110 was tested with no effect on any of the coatings. H380 was not tested. Thank you so much for your input here. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
fires kicking but its monday so sadly back to the salt mines for me tonight lol. hope your warming the car up to go do some sending and range reclaiming today Walter. i wish you were close i would see if you would help me make a few light 45lc loads i want to send some out of my early 70's colt.
Hi Ryan. That is a good question, but one we don’t have complete answers for. What I CAN tell you is that powder coated bullets recovered from ballistic gel, water jugs and dirt berms suggest that the P/C remains intact and does not burn off. If anything along those lines were happening it would likely be only on the bullet base, and therefore not problematic. I hope that helps. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Hi Walter. I've powder coated for years and have never thought of this. Interesting. I've cut apart a lot of shotshells to have different ones to test my crimpers on and sometimes the wad has a yellowish discoloration and a strong smell of I guess nitroglycerin. Not just the base but on up through the wad. It really soaks in it. I'm wondering if the coat on the loaded cartridge rounds is only affected on the base or if it migrates or soaks up between bullet and case. I've also wondered if that stuff soaking into the wad affects the power of the charge.
Hi, Nick! Good to have you aboard. Re: affecting powder up the shank of the bullet.. I think that it would depend on the case (true straight wall vs taper), crimp, bullet shape, etc. In other words, if there is room for gasses to seep up the shank, then it will. Friend BrokeLoader showed that actual contact between the P/C and the gunpowder is not necessary for a reaction to take place. Many, many people have kept P/C rounds loaded with suspect powders for extended periods and maintained function. I am not aware of any definitive testing on velocity or accuracy in such cases though. The powder must be altered in some way in the reaction. More testing is needed. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
One observation regarding the 2021 vs 2022 tests. The storage containers during the testing changed. The butter containers are not airtight, and they do not have the added protection that the glucose test strip containers have. As I understand the test strip containers, they have a white colored layer added to the container that removes moisture and maybe more. Any thoughts if this would impact the reactivity of the double based powders and the Nitro when using powder coating?
Hi, and thanks for watching. I don’t believe that the containers in this case mattered. Others have demonstrated similar results in diverse containers, including cartridge cases. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Several years ago I had a PC/powder combo that resulted in an extremely hard crud ring shooting 38s in a 357. Don’t have notes but it is likely that it was Titegroup.
I use a Belding & Mull powder measure. I have more then one and they have the plastic reservoirs, not the brass ones. I left powder in one too long and it dulled the inside of the plastic reservoir. Made it a tad rough. I wonder Walter if it's the solvent in those double base powders rather then the nitroglycerin?
Hi Boinger. Note that its only a couple of the double-base smokeless powders that are at issue. For my money, the ease and simplicity of powder coating vs the more complex hi-tech process is more viable. Thanks for dropping by. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Great video. Do you think coating these in a tiny bit of Alox would solve the reactive problem on the base of our reloaded bullets. I really like using powder coating cast bullets and use a lot of Titegroup.
Hi Billbob, thanks for stopping by. To answer your question, no. Our friend Brokeloader 2 went so far as to fashion a base cover from aluminum foil, and the fumes were able to move up the shank and react with PC on the sides. My advice is to just not load with TiteGroup until shortly before you are ready to shoot, like no more than a week or so in advance. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Hi, Rawhide. Thanks for stopping by. While I don’t know what the reaction products would be, I’ve never seen reports of such an effect on the barrel. I think that the larger issue is improper burn of the powder. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
I remember way back when Manny CA put this out, that was years back when powder coating was a new thing, he really got razzed about it in his comment's section from people saying "You don't know what you are talking about" I really felt sorry for him, he was one of the first to shed light on this thing. Glad you are doing a service to your viewing audience Walter. - Dave
Hi Dave. I hope you’re doing Ok buddy. I know what it’s like to be on the gimp list, believe me. I never saw Manny’s video on the topic, but he was right about it. I’ve been happy to be a part of the ‘research’ on the topic. Certainly something for powder coaters to consider, and more reason for us not to throw our lube-sizers away! Be well, my friend! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
seeing "this" for the first time connects me with a story I read this winter "The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story" which had a reference to bullets effectively "epoxied" to the case neck creating a real and potential worst case scenario - here the potential? for the vapor from some powders slowly reacting with and creeping through the bullet coating in contact with the case neck to glue the bullet to the case with potential extreme high pressure "ka boom" consequences.
"A former Smith & Wesson employee from the period puts an even finer point on the lightweight bullet issue, by pointing out that some brands were more problematic than others:
"The biggest contributor to the K-Frame model 19/66 barrel splitting issue was the Winchester 125gr JHP .357 ammo. I split barrels with this ammo in as little as 11 shots on a new gun. It had very high and erratic pressures caused by the bullet sealant. Pull forces to move the bullet out of the case were up to 385 pounds! Pressures would be crazy with that high a bullet pull force. Spilt barrels would happen quickly with this ammo."
It’s hard to know if this was a persistent problem that stretched across many years, or just a spotty one that affected certain lots of ammunition, but it would help to explain some contemporary reports that hinted at inconsistencies across agencies, with some reporting high numbers of failures, while others encountered fewer."
Hi, James. Thanks for watching and for leaving this valuable comment. Another of our friends on UA-cam, BrokeLoader 2, discovered powder coating adhering to the case after several months. That, of course, is alarming for the same reason as described in the report you mention. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
I'll throw in another kink to the mystery . I've had some powder coated bullets stored for several years that were loaded with bullseye and coated with HF powder coat . When I took some apart to check the bases , they were all fine .
Interesting! Kinda sounds like the chemical composition of the HF stuff is more suited to PC than some of the others. More work to be done, for sure! That’s a great piece of info to share. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Good stuff, Walter. Thanks for all your hard work and effort on this subject.
Hi, JC. Thanks for that! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Good info Viejo! As far as I'm concerned chapter 1 on powder coating has already been published - powder coating is here to stay, This info contributes greatly to chapter 2 - The details to really fine tune the use of powder coating.
Well put, Mike. Thanks! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸🇨🇦
I’ve had that bullet sitting on my bench for well over a year and have checked it every few months or so.
Good to see the Red dot didn’t . Sticking with good easy powders that can replace all the eaters. ( like W 231 & Unique )
Yup! There are too many good ones out there to worry about the few “rotten apples”. Thanks for watching, UJ. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Great Video Walter. I saw some of those old videos and was amazed at the reaction. So now we know its Alliant's- Be 86, and Bullseye and Hodgen's Titegroup are the problem double base powders for PC projectiles. I only have Titegroup and will limit it to non PC projectiles. Thanks to you and others for these double base powder/powdercoat tests.
Interesting. I was curious about chemical reactions from combining smokless powder and coated bullets.
I'm not a big fan of powder coating, mainly as I know so little about it. That said, about 4 years ago I bought two different colors of Hi-Tek, to attempt to learn more about this. Having no actual garage to work from, I baked the coated bullets in a new toaster oven atop an old workmate bench on my small open back porch. And mixed the chemical in the open air on said porch. I'd been warned of the dangers of the vapors produced from the mixture.
I mixed according to the instructions, allowed drying on a newly made drying rack, made just for this process. Heated to the specific temperature, and monitoring was close. I did many with 2 or more coats. Again, according to the instructions.
But ultimately, this entire endeavor was a failure. The results of this operation produced variable coverage, and 90% had visible bubbles and odd levels of coating. After two weeks of trying to perfect the operation, the results did not improve beyond the bubbles were reduced to 75%.
Thus, I abandoned any further attempts to powder coat and disposed of the powders, and repurposed the hardware I was using to other things. I returned to using conventional sizing and lubrication of my cast bullets that I have used for well over a half a century.
Reckon I'm an old dog that cannot learn new tricks.😒
Hi, Ranger. Thanks for checking in. Keep in mind that Hi-Tek is significantly different from powder coating. The material is way different, as is the application process. Our powder coat process is fast and easy, requires just one coat and the learning curve is short. Don’t give up on it. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸. Watch this video done recently by my friend CW Longshot. His process is similar to mine and most others: ua-cam.com/video/vzSMkpf5SCY/v-deo.html
I watched the video of CW's operation.
Due to the fact that I have no "shop" I'd be unable to perform such a task. Plus, "Too many moving parts" as they say. I appreciate your taking the time, and the encouragement, but I would just be more frustrated. Guess it's hopeless. I'd best stay with what I know. But thanks for the support.
Wade
It’s most definitely the high nitro-glycerin double based powders, the super low charge weight pistol/shotgun powders.
I’ve had a cast 44 caliber 310 grain bullet coated black chrome from powder by the pound sitting in Ramshot enforcer for well over a year inside a old pill container. There has yet to be any differences in the coating.
Hi John. Thanks for that! Good info 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Thanks for being so thorough in your testing. I have some 38spl loaded up with Clean Shot and was hoping you didn't have any adverse reactions. More good info to have!
Hey, DR! I hope all is well. Let us know how the Clean Shot runs. I haven’t used it yet, but was planning to run it in 38’s myself. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
@@viejo2a well, somebody sent me a bunch of 38 brass, so I got an itch and now have a few hundred to test and shoot with 6 or 7 powders loaded up. Thanks again, my friend!🇺🇸🔫👍
Great video as always Walter....Guess I have to make a video of applying powder coat with electro static gun.
It’s been a while since you showed that process. I’m sure there are enough new casters that don’t know about it. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Thanks for all the time and effort you put into that to bring this to us my friend. Really enjoyed the video
Thank you, Sir! Right back at ya for your presentations. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Very interesting, I honestly would have never thought about that but it makes sense. Thank you for sharing.
Hi, R. It’s a phenomenon we’ve known about for a while now, but despite our own private attempts at testing, still don’t have clear answers from the powder manufacturers to some of our remaining questions! Thanks for stopping by. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
This was a great test , interesting how different powders have a different effect.
Thanks, Chris. Yes..different components of the smokeless powder are most likely at the root of the effect. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
It depends mainly on the type of the powdercoating itself, the colour has nearly no influence. Thermoplastic powdercoat is usually not solvent resistant.
The powdercoat should be a Duroplastic or a highly weatherproof type. Important are also the curing temperature and time. I think the Dibutylphthalate (DBP, a plasticizer) and the Ethylacetate (a solvent) in H110, H380, Titegroup a.s.f. could weakens the powdercoating.
Absolutely, Ensam, which is why I included three different types of coatings as well as different colors of the same type. You are quite correct.. the pigments used in the various powder coats have no effect on the results. In order to most closely match the process utilized by the majority of bullet casters, all coatings were baked at 400 degrs F for 20 minutes. We found reactions with two distinct types of powder, but not with Hi-Tek coating. H110 was tested with no effect on any of the coatings. H380 was not tested. Thank you so much for your input here. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Great test 👍
Thanks, STO. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
No problem buddy
Time will tell Viejo.
Yep! Thanks for watching, GGW. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Nice Walter 4 more powders that are good to go.
Right on 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
great info Walter !!!
Hiya, Brian. I hope you folks are staying warm and cozy up there! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
fires kicking but its monday so sadly back to the salt mines for me tonight lol. hope your warming the car up to go do some sending and range reclaiming today Walter. i wish you were close i would see if you would help me make a few light 45lc loads i want to send some out of my early 70's colt.
Good info Walter! I just wonder what happens to the powder coat when fired? What does the heat do to the coatings?
Hi Ryan. That is a good question, but one we don’t have complete answers for. What I CAN tell you is that powder coated bullets recovered from ballistic gel, water jugs and dirt berms suggest that the P/C remains intact and does not burn off. If anything along those lines were happening it would likely be only on the bullet base, and therefore not problematic. I hope that helps. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for stopping by the bench, HeavyLead! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Hi Walter. I've powder coated for years and have never thought of this. Interesting. I've cut apart a lot of shotshells to have different ones to test my crimpers on and sometimes the wad has a yellowish discoloration and a strong smell of I guess nitroglycerin. Not just the base but on up through the wad. It really soaks in it. I'm wondering if the coat on the loaded cartridge rounds is only affected on the base or if it migrates or soaks up between bullet and case. I've also wondered if that stuff soaking into the wad affects the power of the charge.
Hi, Nick! Good to have you aboard. Re: affecting powder up the shank of the bullet.. I think that it would depend on the case (true straight wall vs taper), crimp, bullet shape, etc. In other words, if there is room for gasses to seep up the shank, then it will. Friend BrokeLoader showed that actual contact between the P/C and the gunpowder is not necessary for a reaction to take place. Many, many people have kept P/C rounds loaded with suspect powders for extended periods and maintained function. I am not aware of any definitive testing on velocity or accuracy in such cases though. The powder must be altered in some way in the reaction. More testing is needed. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
One observation regarding the 2021 vs 2022 tests. The storage containers during the testing changed. The butter containers are not airtight, and they do not have the added protection that the glucose test strip containers have. As I understand the test strip containers, they have a white colored layer added to the container that removes moisture and maybe more. Any thoughts if this would impact the reactivity of the double based powders and the Nitro when using powder coating?
Hi, and thanks for watching. I don’t believe that the containers in this case mattered. Others have demonstrated similar results in diverse containers, including cartridge cases. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
@@viejo2a Thank you for the feedback. I do appreciate you sharing the results of your testing.
Several years ago I had a PC/powder combo that resulted in an extremely hard crud ring shooting 38s in a 357. Don’t have notes but it is likely that it was Titegroup.
BrokeLoader 2 described the same thing. Thanks for the comment. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
I use a Belding & Mull powder measure. I have more then one and they have the plastic reservoirs, not the brass ones. I left powder in one too long and it dulled the inside of the plastic reservoir. Made it a tad rough. I wonder Walter if it's the solvent in those double base powders rather then the nitroglycerin?
Hi, Joe. Thanks for watching. You could be right at this point regarding the solvent. At this point I’m unclear as to the exact culprit. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
👍🤠🇺🇲 Good info.
Thanks, Six! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
i always heard this was an issue. looks like im going with Hi-tek coatings moving forward.
Hi Boinger. Note that its only a couple of the double-base smokeless powders that are at issue. For my money, the ease and simplicity of powder coating vs the more complex hi-tech process is more viable. Thanks for dropping by. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Good info
Thanks, Trees. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Great video. Do you think coating these in a tiny bit of Alox would solve the reactive problem on the base of our reloaded bullets.
I really like using powder coating cast bullets and use a lot of Titegroup.
Hi Billbob, thanks for stopping by. To answer your question, no. Our friend Brokeloader 2 went so far as to fashion a base cover from aluminum foil, and the fumes were able to move up the shank and react with PC on the sides. My advice is to just not load with TiteGroup until shortly before you are ready to shoot, like no more than a week or so in advance. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Hello 👋 Viejo!! 🔥
Good morning, Ms. Fires! 🤛🏻🔫🔥🇺🇸
my concern would be could the reaction be like a corrosive situation, on the barrel, sure hope not.
Hi, Rawhide. Thanks for stopping by. While I don’t know what the reaction products would be, I’ve never seen reports of such an effect on the barrel. I think that the larger issue is improper burn of the powder. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
👍🏼🤟🏽🤘🏼👍🏼
Thanks C-Dub! 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
👍👍
Yo, Mok 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
i was unsubscribed again!
Hi, Kyle. Yep.. happens to me all the time. I was unsubbed to you a couple weeks ago, too. 🤛🏻🔫🇺🇸
Rats 😟
Mice. 😀🔫🇺🇸
@@viejo2a Gophers