Hopefully full power bikes will get down to that 44lb weight zone in the next 2 years. If they do, then the category may in fact go away? BUT, at that point, SLs may be down around 37lbs, which would be crazy for a big mountain ready eMTB.
I have both. (Speshy Levo/ Trek eXe) Honestly, the full power rarely gets ridden, unless I'm with friends on full bikes, or on an epic trip. I had to get a mid-power as well, because I just could not get a good workout on the Levo, even in Eco. Weight has nothing to do with it. I put my Fuel eXe in Eco and get 3-4 hrs, 3000 ft, and 25-30 miles out of each ride. I cover more ground, more laps, in less time than on my meat-powered bike, but still get a great workout. Basically, my Trek is the daily driver, and the Levo is the "shuttle day" party bike. I think mid-powered bikes will stick around for those of us who keep fitness as a priority, but want to get 2 or 3 climbs instead of 1.
@@junseokkim7673 Perfect description of my feelings and used some of the same words! Nice job. I plan to post my thoughts on this on my channel and was going to use the terms "Purist", "Progressive" and "Party" for the three categories of Analog, Mid Power, and Full Power. I too have a full power and a Trek EXe and the Trek is the daily driver - love that TQ motor. I sold the "meat-powered" bike (I'm vegan);-)
Just bought a mid-power bike. I have to use lower gears, it’s not as planted, but shreads and is more fun to hump and bunny hop and manual. It’s like riding a normal MTB but more distance and fun! My Full Power bike will be saved for bigger days or rides with other Full Power who use boost so can’t keep up with the Mid Power! So Fun!
I put my full power Levo on 10% (using micro tune) when I bring my doggo with me. I definitely get a good workout on the climbs. I would have gone for an sl if I could do it over again. I got a great deal on the levo though and I’m still having a blast with it!
Thanks Francis. I have an alternate opinion. I plan to post it on my channel in a few weeks. I have been cycling for years and after moving to the mountains (Truckee, California) found my love more full power ebikes. I own a YT Decoy, and Canyon Spectral On and they are setting record ebike times on the trails. However, I started missing something, and that was the solo rides that give me a good workout but are also quieter and slower (less wind in the ears and risk to my body). I tried my analog mtb but that was a slog on some of the steep climbs (hardly can balance and keep my HR in endurance range), then started riding my gravel bike, but only a few places to do that without being by cars or trails intended for mtb. Enter the Trek Fuel exe with the TQ motor. So quite, programed to provide power in proportion to human output, and nothing else. I feel like I'm back on a bike again with the solitude and joy that comes from peddling myself, but with younger legs... This is my bike for solo rides on trails in the woods that gives me an good workout to mix up with my running. It is also going to be a dream in places like Mendocino and Oregon on quiet flow trails. Will I ever give up my full power bike - no way! If I could only have one ebike, yes, I would buy the full power. But do I see why these lower power bikes are in high demand - and always the ones hardest to get my hands on during demo rides - yes. Not for everyone - but there is a really good use case for those who want the "acoustic experience" with a little more help. I actually think the dying segment might be acoustic...
Right on. Please post your UA-cam!!! Great share. I can totally relate since a lot of your old-time ebikers still hang on to their regular mountain bikes. Mostly XC/Trail bikes so they're not so slow. It retains the fitness, sense of accomplishment and keeps one honest. We ride it once a week. The midpower can take its place too for sure.
This person! I have lived in Truckee, since 1995. Low power is a small segment and not for most people. If I had to only have one bike, full power 100%. I have about 10,000 miles on full power Levos. Still have a Gen 3 pro. it's my backup bike. I also ride a Santa Cruz Heckler SL. I ride the SL 90 plus percent of my rides. My rides are usually under 30 miles and under 4,000 feet of climbing. The lower weight bike is fun, poppy, jumpy and playful. Santa Cruz Fazua has it's issues but it it's the best turning bike I have ridden. I am NOT a SC fan but I like this bike. Perfect world, two bikes. Bigger bike for 30 plus mile rides. Better yet, I want go back to swappable batteries. Big batteries for big rides and small batteries on smaller rides, same bike. I like the Levo SL but battery is too small for 25 plus miles and 4,000 feet of climbing. Mid power Santa Cruz I can keep up with full power bikes if they are riding on trail or less no problem. I also don't like some companies making their mid power bikes look lighter than they are by putting light 2.3 tires on them. They are saving a lb on spec sheet weight but kind of unrideable in Tahoe. So let's make weights for trail bike with proper trail components. Mid batteries need to be 400 -500 batteries swappable to 700 plus for all day missions.
@@jeremys4705 yes!! Most of my crew have a full-powered emtb and a regular xc/trail bike. And we ride our XC bikes on shit local trails to stay in shape. For you guys who live in the Sierras (aka God's country), the second bike is mid-power, and rightfully so. In the future though, the midpower bikes will have full power and will have an assortment of available batteries.
@@jeremys4705Agree, hard to beat. But if you have not tried Mendocino that place is great. Might be good option when we have snow. I did a little video of it if you have not been there before.See ya out there!
Horses for courses. They are intentionally different, and until battery/motor technology changes and allows a full power to be 40ish pounds with good range, the mid-power fits in perfectly for a lot of riders. I’d argue that most riders of full power eMTBs could ride mid-power and be happy. How much power is enough? The DJI motor and similar will only create more conflict on the trails. After all, we’re riding mountain bike trails. I have a Shuttle SL and it still allows me to get a workout and feel like I’m actually mountain biking.
Francis, when you say things like "The ones who really want midpower are the ones who have never ridden eBikes" - that's not only incorrect, it just comes off as opinionated and dismissive. There are many riders who don't want full assist, we want to put in more effort, and get acceptable range out of midpower bikes using lower assist modes. Range extenders are available if people want them. Some backcountry and secret trails require carrying, lighter weight does have some advantages. It is just a different animal. I really hope you'll consider the feedback, because you're losing credibility by not acknowledging others may not share your personal preferences.
Francis I always love your vids and watch them throughout, thanks! I agree with you on some points, disagree on others. I owned full powered Levos and today I ride the mid-power Levo SL gen2. Definitely agree that it limits options in terms of range - and I'll add also limits how many laps you can "turbo" through if you're limited on time (they don't go as fast as a full power no matter what). However, I do feel much better riding them on the descents - I ride everything around Santa Cruz, incl steeps, jumps, etc and even 4 lbs can definitely be felt on the trail. On the steeps, out of corners, etc. Also, I feel like I'm working out when I'm climbing even when I go to trail mode (I'm in decent shape and rarely use turbo). IMO what's really lacking in the mid-power is the battery - if I had 600Wh and the 50Nm I can do pretty much everything, probably wouldn't even need the extender. But they do feel much closer to a real bike, and frankly when I hit even small drops on the full power I feel like I'm in a tank! Another point to make - you're spot on that mid-powers have higher end components but I don't think it's just for weight wieny reasons - it's because they're closer to a real bike. For example, you don't really need cushcore on Levo SL if you don't use them on the Enduro. And don't need DH tires if the bike is closer to the weight on a heavy enduro bike. You can even make some compromises on the shock (I agree a Fox 38 would be better, but on the rear the Float X feels just fine to me). I do think the future is actually convergence towards the middle-high with 42'ish lbs bikes that can do 650-700Wh battery and a good motor (probably 60Nm is enough). That kind of bike can still feel like you're riding an MTB but can also do 4-6 hr rides no problem. My 2c
Had 2 full power ebikes norco vlt and the scor 4060lt. Both 50+ lbs. Been on a santa cruz heckler sl for 1 year now. Cant go back to 50#. Yes, like the boost mode but im still riding 4+hours with less weight. Im all freeride and self shuttle just like full power days but fit enough to not have the boost mode. So yes wouldn't mind getting full power ebike but needs to be 42# or less . Other bike is a Nomad collecting dust unless going to Whistler .Im giving it 1 or 2 more years b4 industry catches up to that weight to power.
@@EMTBReview Nah Heckler SL has just been surpassed by the Vala, The Amflow is a markedly better bike than both. Orbea Rise 2025 are cream of the crop.
As much as dislike the growing pains and prices of SL e-bikes I love having a 40lbs Levo SL. It rides so good and I still get some sense of accomplishment on longer lower power rides. Plus I can argue it descends better than the Stumpjumper EVo. But yeah full power for close to the same weight and hopefully reliable… that could be the best of both worlds for e-bikes.
As a long-ago-retired cross-country racer...I just cannot follow your logic about mid-powered ebikes. They are perfect for my riding. But, have to think that the full-powered ebikes will likely get lighter when their battery density improves with future developments. So, mid-powered and full-powered will merge at some point in time. Kind of looking as though DJI ebikes won't arrive here for quite a l--o--n--g time...
Mid-power is perfect for you but not most IMHO. As you know, I love midpower and have access to all the latest tech. But out of a hundred folks I ride with, maybe only 5 have a midpower... and only as a second bike. But my point really is they are merging, as you said. Full-power bikes will be more configurable and be under 45 lbs. And under 40 lbs in some configurations
I think you're probably right but unfortunately a full power is not for me .. I have to carry and move my ebike (Rise) around and so need something that's not going to give me a hernia if I try to pick it up. I don't care about the power (seems like you want to get a motorbike if that's the reason someone wants more power). I've beefed up my Rise for the downhills and it really is on the weight limit for me but it's the best way to have an up lift service for where I ride and that's all I'm really paying for.
Good points!! The Rise is really a full power bike though with the old one having so much usable torque and the new one with 85nm of torque now. It's the way of the future i think. Power is not needed by all but Range is really something wanted by most. Configurable power, batteries, under 45 lbs is in our future I thik.
I guess I'm on the opposite side of the profile you describe but I do see your perspective. Coming from a background of priding myself to be an ultra competitive climber, my experience has given me a different opinion. I started out with a full powered e-bike and found, it gave me excuses to start slacking off. When you give in to the heavy weight of the e-bike, then you start relying on making it do the work. It's only now that I got a Trek Fuel EXe that I feel like I've come home. I find myself capping the motor at 100w and making sure I do at least 150 to 280w. I now feel like I'm really climbing again - only now, faster, longer, more fun. For aq challenge, sometimes I just turn off the motor entirely in my climb. I only use 1/3 the TQ's power ever so I would even go the other way and make it smaller even. I could see how the battery range could be limiting for some but I'm thinking, that is where technology will catch up. Chasing more power does not feel like mountain biking for me . Might as well get a dirt bike . I rode with a group of full power bikes last week. If I may be so blunt, they were all out of shape but they all left me behind as we climbed and I can assure you, I am way more fit than any of them. The word abuse comes to mind. I've also now been upgrading the parts on my bike and make it a sport to make it as light as I can without compromising integrity and reliability. All I know is I'm having fun again and it's the opposite of trying to get more external power on the motor..
I agree and disagree. I think both bikes have there place in the market. If you have long slogs up a fire road and your main focus is the descent, then yes the full power is the way to go. But I would also add that the extra weight does take its toll on your body flinging 50+ pounds around. If your trails are more actual trails like in my area, then the sl/mid power does make more sense. There is no real need for all the power, as you are probably only gaining anywhere from 1500-2500 ft during a pretty long ride. Plus the lighter bike makes it easier to lift up over technical features, and the stealth of them helps keep the cacklers quiet. I have a full power levo and a regular Stumpy evo, I know if I had something right in the middle of them it would be the sweet spot. Basically both bikes have there place in the market and you should buy the one that suits you for 95% of what terrain you are riding.
Very very good point. The ebike helps the rider go uphill. Downhill,it adds to then beating with it added mass. So lighter bikes make for easier descending. One good development is great suspension and brakes are commonly found now on E
Personally I choose a new bike because of the feelings. During testdrive I check how the bike feels (subjectively). Then I like it or not. All full power bikes feels so heavy to me so I do not like them. And because of this all arguments for range and power do not work for me anymore.
Good points but... where are you able to test ride. Difficult to find a demo on real trails these days. And the real problem.... it takes about 5 rides to get used to a 50lb ebike. One has to develop the style and the musculature to really dance with an emtb. If you see all my video reviews, I fly and jump now with the emtb and I'm only 150 lbs. And there is very little difference now with how I corner and descend a 42 lb mid power and a 50 lb full power ebike.
I have been riding a full power gen 3 Levo for the past 2 years and agree with you. I come from an xc background and own a24 pound Blur. But the full power Levo I don’t compare directly to my Blur. I’ve developed a different riding style for the Levo and love it. I definitely do not want to give up my 90 nm of torque. Power and suspension tuning make the Levo handle plenty light at 52 pounds.
Hey man, so good to hear your input. I too have been riding a GEN three Levo and a light Santa Cruz blur XC. Such a great combo for me at this point. So much adventure, descending, and hanging on to fitness.
I don't do 'epic rides' as 4 hours is about my limit before I wish I was doing something else. I try to avoid riding with other people if I can. Bunny hopping, jumping stumps n' rocks, and flinging the bike around is fun for me - a heavier bike would be a pain to do this. I live in Michigan where you actually are riding trails immediately, instead of grinding out fireroad climbs before the fun starts. I don't want a lot of assist, as I've found that managing motor output & overrun often gets in the way of riding my bike like a mountain bike - the power bubble sometimes (yes you shimano where eco is too little and trail mode is a bit too much) gets in the way, and I'd rather have less power delivered in a linear and predictable manner over brute torque numbers that look good on a brochure. My Transition Relay is perfect for the riding I like to do, and I'm glad the marketplace offers bikes in this category.
I have to respectfully disagree. I own a Trek Rail and a Fuel EXe and without question the EXE is a much more enjoyable bike to ride. The low weight and natural pedal feel come together to make a really compelling package. The Rail has always felt like a bulldozer. I’m currently selling the Rail and am looking to purchase a Cannondale Moterra SL 1 which is full power and only 43 lbs so I can keep up with my full fat ebike crew. I would be curious to know your thoughts on that bike.
Great input, so it’s very much appreciated. The two Bike ebikes stable is definitely a big part of the future. As far as the Cannondale, I don’t have any experience but, it’s really feels like the equivalent of the latest orbea rise.
EMTBs that allow you to quickly swap batteries is the best option. The Repeater (full power) and Relay (mid-power) allow my son and I to quickly swap batteries and have big days out without worrying about battery conservation.
I think swappable batteries are going away. The reason is too many compromises in frame design, rigidity and weight. In its place, we’ll get 400/600/800 wh battery options and extender battery options
@@EMTBReview the bigger batteries simply don’t offer a good enough replacement for the ability quickly swap batteries mid ride. I can burn up 20% of a 720wh battery in about 20 minutes on my favorite loop that features a 1000ft descent and climb back to the top. The big batteries are also much heavier and range extenders don’t allow use of the water bottle cage.
@@andersonsridebikes point taken. Folks who actually do multi-battery rides regularly are a niche market and only 5-10% of the market at best. 800wh batteries with 250wh extenders will suffice for most. Something interesting about multi-battery 'turbo' rides... the ebike helps you in climbs. And the ebike beats you up more in descents. Soooo, a rad ride with two batteries and 15,000 feet of elevation is like.... 4000 feet of climbing effort. It is about the 20,000 feet of descending effort. That bike weight is hard on the body, but yes, it is sooo much fun IMHO.
@@EMTBReview I understand your point about representing a small group of EMTB riders. I do wish more riders would think that way though! And I completely agree that big days out of the full power are a great workout! Your descending endurance will skyrocket with a few of those big rides
I have a full power Specialized Turbo Levo and I love it. I bought it 18 months ago and hardly ever ride my other bikes, unless I am going to a bike park with lift service. For me riding a bike has never been about fitness. I don't ride a bike to get in shape, I ride a bike because I love riding. I go to the gym to stay in shape. So for me, the reasoning that you don't get a workout riding an e-bike is pointless. I just don't see the point in a mid-power EMTB for me. If I'm going to ride an EMTB I want all the power. If I want to ride a lighter bike, I'll use my regular pedal bike. I can see how they are good for some people that want to do group rides with regular pedal bikes, or for people that want to get a workout. But in general I don't think the mid-power EMTB is going to last. Especially since the full power bikes are getting better, lighter, and more power options.
Mid power is the future full power will go to urban biking or commuter bike. 40+ lbs emtb is the way to go. Most trail and enduro bike weighs 33-40lbs so adding power will make the 40+ lbs emtb feel like 30lbs or less
Got rid of my 56 lb bike and loving my Rise. One is like a Tundra and the Orbea is like a Miata. Can’t argue with simple physics. You can add a battery to a light weight bike for those occasional long ride but you can’t take anything off a heavy bike for the everyday ride.
I think both styles of bikes have their places. I have both. I have a Mondraker Level R, super enduro with 180 travel and a full power Bosch motor. I also ride a Santa Cruz Heckler SL with the mid power Fazua Drive and 160/150 travel. When I ride easier, blue or green trails, with less than 2000 feet of climbing, I take the Heckler SL. Also, the Heckler SL is stealthy. Here in Colorado, there are still haters out there. Most of the time, the Heckler SL is not identified as an e-bike. So, if there is more traffic on the trails (weekends), I take the Heckler SL. When I am doing long hard climbs, black diamond or greater trails, I take the full power Mondraker Level. When I ride in a group, (usually most have full power bikes) I almost always take the Mondraker Level. When the going gets tough, it's better to have the weight, travel, and power! For fun flow trails and easier, shorter routes, the Heckler SL is the best!
Had a 2020 35 NM Levo SL. Sold it got a 2022 Turbo Levo. The Levo SL was much more fun to ride. I slacked the front end to 64 degrees and put a Lyric Ultimate and SRAM RSC brakes on it. Loved it. The new SL is awesome.
I ride a Pivot Shuttle SL and love it as it rides like a normal bike but the most important aspect for me is that my friends ride analogue bikes. Range anxiety is real though and weight seems to be a stupid argument now.
You nailed it with that statement “why not just get a 19# hardtail and go all day” My hardtail isn’t that light but I do like it a lot. The other reason why I have no desire for eMTBs is I don’t have any desire to use burley components and wear a full face or storm trooper pads, or launch 🚀 off roof tops. I’m ok being on a hardtail and taking blues and greens, why not?
Yup. if you're getting out often on the hardtail or xc bike and having a blast, then no need for E. A lot of E is appropriate for those who want to ride more, steeper and progress with sport.
I had an early levo SL, which was too low powered compared to my full power Levo. I’m into a comfortable ride so I have Push fork and Push shock on my Levo and it’s just unbelievable. If I want to go for a light ride on a gravel road I have a Creo, which is perfect. I live in the Bay Area at about 2012 feet and when I ride down to Milpitas, I have to get up that hill every time so the Creo works great for that. On the Levo, I can go for a 5 mile ride with 1000 feet of climbing or 25 mile ride. At 70 years old I love what I have. I got into serious cycling when I was 28. I’ve been doing it for about 42 years. The number one factor is how much fun you can have.
I love my mid power Shuttle SL. I have not exhausted the battery (yet). It’s is quiet and incognito. I still get a fair workout. I do have FAZUA anxiety …..
Dji have completely destroyed this segment. 120nm, up to 1000watts of power assistance. 800watt battery in a lightweight frame with burly Enduro quality components. A 10k Trek with a TQ motor producing 50nm with 360watt battery, makes very little sense now. Orbea with the rise was already a better option. The Avinox powered Amflow has moved the game on significantly. Sure there's the sceptics out there, who will always state untested in the real world. However Dji are already a significant market leader in what they do. I'm sure it will be supported. All the mainstream suppliers need to catch up literally. Bosch is trying with the Gen 5, but still lagging in terms of specs. Amflow has a surefire hit. 👍👌
I had a beautiful Orbea Rise pedal assist. I adapted to the 29 inch wheels well enough, and it was playful and relatively lightweight. Very easy to ride when the motor was disengaged as well. Plus the EP8 motor is re-tunable. Thieves managed to take it from me. I'll be getting another one before long.
Great video! I have a Rise and Levo full power (and several struggle buggies). The Rise gets the most use. For most rides, it has plenty of power and range. I upgraded my suspension/travel, so it rides better (in my opinion). It's more nimble but heavy enough to be stable when riding down rough trails. The Levo has the Rise beat if I feel lazy and want to hit the "Easy" button. We'll see what the next crop of full-power bikes looks like.. the new lighter full-power motors and batteries might sway me to drop the Rise
I concur. My wife rides a liv intruege E1. Full carbon, 90nm, 400watts. We crush 20milers in turbo mode with plenty of battery to spare. Could do 30miles. I hate giant, they hate their customers. But. That setup is the package. I ride a transition relay PT. 90 nm, like 750wattbatt. If they remade that bike with half or even 1/4”the battery, i’d all in. It would drop the weight and keep the torque. If i needed to rip with the big boy bikes , strap on the extender. (I dont think Repeater doesn’t have one yet and honestly would be overkill). So yeah. Give me an SL with a modular battery. 250 wats per cell and let me add what i want for the day. Or. Give a a 400 or 600 watt extender. I think 90nm with modular batteries is the perfect design.
We have a few ebikes , full power and least power ( turbo Vado SL) I ride the 35 mm SL the most , it's perfect where I live and ride( no mountains) and it's so light I can pedal it for miles with a dead battery 😊
currently ride a gen3 levo and love everything about it. But... would love to have the ability to swap out the battery to a smaller one for my usual 2 hr rides. I don't normally use more than 50% of the battery but carrying around 100% of the weight all the time sounds like an inefficiency that can easily be addressed. for my type of riding, i think an orbea rise would be my next bike. prior to the new generation of Rise, i've always wondered why they couldn't give people the option of using all the available power in the EP801RS motor... if they could "detune" it to use up less battery, surely they could allow people to "uptune" it to get more power but use up more battery. That was the main reason I ended up getting a Levo. But now with the new generation of Rise, they did exactly what I wanted them to do in the first place. By the way, they should release a firmware update to allow owners of previous generation of Rise to "uptune" their EP801RS motor to 80nm from 60nm.
In the bike park I find my spectral:on jumps almost as well my Status 160 and I find myself over shooting more jumps with the spectral:on because it carries speed more for some reason
This is what I observe as well. In a place with real jumps, the 50 pound bike will jump just as well or better. The key is for the rider to get used to the bike and a different, jumping style. After all, motocross bikes, lie hundreds of feet in the air in the right hands.
Bought the Canyon Torque On six months ago. It's 57 pounds with 900 watt hour battery and I love it! The only time I notice the weight is when I load it in the truck.
IMO, weight matters a lot when descending. I have a Heckler and a range of pedal bikes from downcountry to DH, and all my descending PRs are on the pedal bikes. They just feel way more dynamic and agile descending than a 50 lb. bike does.
Fully agree - "modular" bikes - the same bike, with the same motor and possibility to easy extend range (with extenders) will save the money for the company. Extenders can be even internal! For new Trek Slash Plus You can easily swap 580 battery and 360 battery - no external extender. Now imagine internal extenger!
the full power/light debate has the usual answer ... "it depends". I live at sea level and all the trails i ride have little to no elevation. I have no use for a full power emtb. I ride a SL and usually only ride at 50% power at most and I can get 3 rides on one charge (320wh battery).
I have a 2023 Rise EP801 H10. With the upgrade from Shimano I now have access to the overall 85Nm full power. My mates all have full power and we all stay together. Battery wise we are also fairly close to over usage.
I think if the Fazua sorts out there issues then the Relay would be a perfect mid power bike. I looked at the 2025 PNW build last weekend in a large and with the pedals it was just over 45lbs. If you remove the battery to ride it at a bike park it is 40lbs which is 3lb lighter than my DH bike.
I rode a few full power e-mtbs before buying my Ari Nebo. I do love to jump and the heavier bikes just didn't feel right. A lot of my local trails (DFW area) are pretty flat and twisty and I feel plenty fast enough, any faster would exceed my cornering skill. One thing you didn't mention was rider weight. I'm a skinny guy (5'11 155lbs) and bike weight makes a bigger difference than to a bigger, stronger rider. A 60nm motor propelling me up a hill would be similar to 220lb person with an 85nm motor.
3:48 - TQ used a lot more energy comparing to (also lighweight) Fazua Ride 60 - about 45% more energy! Well that being said there is a big problem with TQ motor. I'd like to see also new dji Avinox and ZF engines in that comparasion.
@@EMTBReview Yep! I don’t need those negative vibes from a Mid power ebike. It’s all about having more ride time. Pivot with a 1000 watt battery 🔋 Sold 😎
I can tune my Levo to be very stingy on the power unless I’m putting in a lot of work. I can’t tune my Kenevo SL to pour on the power. I love them both but the Levo is more flexible and the KSL more niche.
I have a full power eMTB and a non e trail bike. That’s the perfect combination for me. Around half the time, I’m riding the trail bike. The full power eMTB is a super versatile machine though.
Totally agree! It is good to have a versatile machine like the full power with a great range. For a second bike, most opt for a regular mountain bike or a mid power is a good option as well and these are things that make it easy to keep one’s Peak fitness.
One thing that led me to a mid is the bikes seem more refined. Up until a couple weeks ago, the Bosch and shimano rattle and sound like the bike has marbles in the motor. I like quiet and a bike that is better integrated
Exactly. Available technology is a key factor and midpower bikes were more refined and integrated. Specialized can Kenevo, SL and Trek fuel Exe were incredible packages. But it turns out, they’re not that usable. So when full power versions of these arrive, I think more customers will be happy.
@@EMTBReview agree the 50nm bikes are weak. My Fazua has been great. However, some have had bad experience with Fazua reliability. In our MTB club we have three people on heckler SL’s and no problems so far
No doubt my friend. That DJI motor is so ahead of its time but it was the competition away. The bike doesn’t even matter and many are willing to spend $10,000 on a no-name frame. The US based companies are lucky that Bike will not be available in the US for at least a year.
@@EMTBReview honestly I don’t, I get it tho. I have a young family so I have to be home well before the extender would come into play. I’m good for 3500 foot purely in boost.
@6:41 Bingo! I'm an old analog biker and weight was/is the holy grail for me. My 'old' Giant XTC (full suspension) is 28# (with pedals) and the thought of a 53# bike is sorta scary to me. One of these days I'll actually ride an e-bike.
Seems Orbea are expanding on the concept developped by Giant with their Trance Elite more than a year ago by adding battery options to a configurable motor, torque & power, (in the app) on a rather lightweight e-mtb. Adding battery options to configure the bike to one’s liking makes this the best option! Great content 👍
Decoy SN showed up last week and it’s a blast! Notably less power but so much more poppy and fun! For me it’ll be my usual bike and the old Decoy Full Power will be for bigger days and group rides where the others only wanna ride Turbo 🙄
I personally don’t care for heavy full power ebikes. In New England there are a lot of janky section (even in blue trails) that if don't have expert level technical skills you will be hike biking a lot. My ideal ebike will have to be in the 40 to 45lbs range. I will be using the ebike during my lunch hour to get a quick lap in the local woods. The longest rides I will do will be around 4 hours. I think a Marin Rift Zone EL is the perfect bike for what I am planning to do.
Yeah buddy, there is definitely some regionality to this decision process. If you don’t have the big mountains and the fast ebike group rides, it is a different dynamic. And I hear the East Coast techie is a real deal.
Francis, where did the bike weight data come from? Fully agree with the comment about the Trek Rail Vs the Trek EXe Rode both got the EXe 8 with the components i wanted. Have not tried turbo. The bike gets up everything and feels like an analog bike.
@@EMTBReview yup 160nm! I mainly ride on motorbike single track so its perfect for that. with 26x4 fat tyres. Blurring the line between E-MX and E-MTB but its a fun bike to ride
You say range in terms of efficiency is the factor and yet the ride 60 bikes are clearly more efficient @13ft climbing per wh than the levo @ less than 9ft climbing per wh? The fuel exe is about the same as the levo and Levo SL is between those bikes and the fazua bikes.
I just sold my full power bike and have kept my transition relay. Yes it's expensive but definitely worth it. Having said that the DJI motor and battery system will eat everyone's lunch by the looks and there is no reason to have less power if it weighs the same. More modular battery options will be the go especially if we can get something lightweight solid state, that will be the game changer.
That is a great observation about the data. I posted and measured myself. Thank you for pointing that out. In the test, I am only climbing 500 feet full turbo and extrapolating data. What’s not obvious in the chart is the full powered E bikes, are climbing at a much faster pace. Because of that, the rider in s not able to help as much or as long. That being said, the Fazua ride 60 is one efficient motor.
Money doesn’t lie. (Ppl lie 😂) - At this point : the best answer - BOTH. (e.g. turbo levo for everything and kenevo for downhill especial) - Only one allowed? Hands down Levo. Sales figure basically shows LEVO is dominating the market. So, it’s undeniably the main market trend. Again, have both. Problem solved.
I see e-mountain bikes, trying to go the same direction as direct-to-consumer e-bikes have went. Trying to get more and more power. This is going to cost the entire industry in the long run. At some point they’re building small motorcycles that are powered with the pedals. This is not gonna be allowed on typical bicycle trails. The other major difference is going to be, the components put in these higher powered bicycles. For the high-power market they’re looking for thrill seekers not really necessarily mountain bikers. So they are putting the cheapest products on that. They can find in order to keep the price low. Can you say Velotric? The more serious type of rider is looking for the highest quality components, and willing to pay for it. Many of these more serious riders go into competitions, which are only going to allow a, say class one, E bike to be there. If the eMTB Industry continues to embrace this it will cause a drastic reduction in their popularity. If we are just looking at the e-bike industry in general, the general public has a wildly negative view of them. I would hate to see this happen with the e-mountain bike industry as well.
There is always that danger. But the saving grace is the class 1 category of E bike, restricts average motor power to 250 W. I do think all major mountain bike manufacturers will stick with class 1.
@@EMTBReview but you also have to consider that the more they make these like peddling motorcycles, the more the general public absolutely hates them and thinks they are all the same. They far out number the mountain bikers and the ones that caused a problem are much more noticeable. Hence the general public sees bikes as a problem, and the more these manufactures power them up the more this is going to increase. I did a video about the banning of bikes in a certain town. It kind of went viral, not sure why maybe just the timing. But there were over 3000 comments and it showed me that the general public has no idea about the reality of e-bikes and that they do not have a favorable view of them.
@@southernebikingI agree. I'm old enough to remember mountain bikers having to fight hard to get rights to trails. Equestrians and hikers were very opposed to them and to some extent some are still. E-bikes flying down trails is going to cause issues. "Rights" are a flimsy thing that can be revoked anytime.
@@joerapo you had mentioned that you were old enough to remember something Joe. I am old enough to remember in the 1980s when the CPSC did study on three wheeled motorcycles. They determined that they were too dangerous and so they banned the sale of them throughout the United States. this was not just the faster ones that were built for racing but the ones that were built for on the farm and ranch as well. No longer able to get them after January 1988. I would certainly hate to see that happen in the world as well and the CPS is studying the safety of E bikes as we speak.
I disagree with no.3 I think a lot of people do care about weight and handling just check the comment section lol. As for mid power emtbs I think the idea of a lightweight emtb won't go away the industry will just do what Orbea/Amflow are doing with battery sizes/weight.
Point taken. My prediction is bikes with full power motors are going to get lighter with modular batteries. Bikes like the Orbea Rise and Cannondale Neo are examples. DJI bike too
Tell us more about solid state batteries? What's the upside and how many years before we see it in bikes? And yes, the DJI motor is earth-shaking. The only upside for the US competition is it will be a year or two before we see a DJI bike sold in the USA.
The mid power bike IS the future. I think people are getting blinded. They don’t see the forest for the trees. Look far into the future. No technological limitations. What do you see? What I see is a sub 30 pound bike with unlimited range and power up to about 750 watts - this is because this is about as much power as anyone ever actually needs on something that’s made to be a bicycle. This is essentially a full-powered bike at the weight of a push bike with no motor or battery at all. Yes, it’s a technological marvel. So where are we on this scale? The full powered bikes will continue to be at about that weight for the forseeable future. They don’t sacrifice the power, because that’s what they’re for. The weight is a secondary consideration. The range is a more important consideration, and will probably be increased until it’s about 1kWh or so for the current weight standards, which would more or less be unlimited for most people. Very specialized bikes might go up to 2kWh so long as the cost and the weight are kept to what we have now. Lightweight bikes are pushing the weight envelope, so they’re driving the tech to the mythical 30 pound ebike. I think about 25-30 pounds is about the sweet spot for that sort of machine, at which point they’ll start adding on more power and capacity, while keeping it at that weight. They’re not quite at the weight target, though. How do we know this? Gravel ebikes are already there. Modern gravel ebikes are already sub-30 pounds, and we’re already seeing a push towards more capacity and more power. So long as they keep it sub-30, it’ll meet the needs of the people who want that class of bike, which is a bike that’s easy to flick around and maneuver, easy to pedal unpowered, and easy to lift and carry around for short distances.
For most uses with real mountains, yeah. Modularity in batteries too so one can choose the cofiguration given short weekday rides and long/adventure weekend rides.
And that is the other factor here. With 80% of the market, buying full power, likely the people do you want to ride with will have full power, so it is tough to have mid power unless you are much fitter than them.
Sorry to say, but I think you should think to hire someone who edit your videos, no offense... the Audio is awful at times, you use same images and videos from the last videos... very low edit quality video. This content is more for a blog or article format, my opinion. Good luck
I’m just sharing insight away from the obvious. Yes, folks are moving away from Shimano motors. Pivot has now left Suimano and they were the key ally. Now Santa Cruz has left Shimano motors. Many more are going to switch
If you don’t buy a full powered emtb, you might as well just keep riding a regular mtb, the low powered ones are not worth the expense for the minor power and lack of decent range
Not true. You're saying there isn't anything in the middle between two extremes. A mid powered ebike such as the Heckler SL or Nebo Peak has plenty of pep, and the range is quite good. You can easily be in the saddle for three hours with plenty of climbing, and the bike has better descending/handling characteristics than a full power bike. Most people don't have the time nor the inclination to be in the saddle for 4+ hours. And they may not want to fully give up some fitness element of mountain biking... But they also don't want to suffer through long, tough climbs and thus not be able to get in many downhills laps... Mid powered bikes are a happy medium that work very well for a lot of people.
Hopefully full power bikes will get down to that 44lb weight zone in the next 2 years. If they do, then the category may in fact go away? BUT, at that point, SLs may be down around 37lbs, which would be crazy for a big mountain ready eMTB.
I have both. (Speshy Levo/ Trek eXe) Honestly, the full power rarely gets ridden, unless I'm with friends on full bikes, or on an epic trip. I had to get a mid-power as well, because I just could not get a good workout on the Levo, even in Eco. Weight has nothing to do with it. I put my Fuel eXe in Eco and get 3-4 hrs, 3000 ft, and 25-30 miles out of each ride. I cover more ground, more laps, in less time than on my meat-powered bike, but still get a great workout. Basically, my Trek is the daily driver, and the Levo is the "shuttle day" party bike. I think mid-powered bikes will stick around for those of us who keep fitness as a priority, but want to get 2 or 3 climbs instead of 1.
Same here. I just like my levo SL more than my full power levo.
@@junseokkim7673 Perfect description of my feelings and used some of the same words! Nice job. I plan to post my thoughts on this on my channel and was going to use the terms "Purist", "Progressive" and "Party" for the three categories of Analog, Mid Power, and Full Power. I too have a full power and a Trek EXe and the Trek is the daily driver - love that TQ motor. I sold the "meat-powered" bike (I'm vegan);-)
Just bought a mid-power bike. I have to use lower gears, it’s not as planted, but shreads and is more fun to hump and bunny hop and manual. It’s like riding a normal MTB but more distance and fun!
My Full Power bike will be saved for bigger days or rides with other Full Power who use boost so can’t keep up with the Mid Power! So Fun!
I put my full power Levo on 10% (using micro tune) when I bring my doggo with me. I definitely get a good workout on the climbs. I would have gone for an sl if I could do it over again. I got a great deal on the levo though and I’m still having a blast with it!
Meat powered vs. Vegan bikes. I like that. :)
Thanks Francis. I have an alternate opinion. I plan to post it on my channel in a few weeks. I have been cycling for years and after moving to the mountains (Truckee, California) found my love more full power ebikes. I own a YT Decoy, and Canyon Spectral On and they are setting record ebike times on the trails. However, I started missing something, and that was the solo rides that give me a good workout but are also quieter and slower (less wind in the ears and risk to my body). I tried my analog mtb but that was a slog on some of the steep climbs (hardly can balance and keep my HR in endurance range), then started riding my gravel bike, but only a few places to do that without being by cars or trails intended for mtb. Enter the Trek Fuel exe with the TQ motor. So quite, programed to provide power in proportion to human output, and nothing else. I feel like I'm back on a bike again with the solitude and joy that comes from peddling myself, but with younger legs... This is my bike for solo rides on trails in the woods that gives me an good workout to mix up with my running. It is also going to be a dream in places like Mendocino and Oregon on quiet flow trails. Will I ever give up my full power bike - no way! If I could only have one ebike, yes, I would buy the full power. But do I see why these lower power bikes are in high demand - and always the ones hardest to get my hands on during demo rides - yes. Not for everyone - but there is a really good use case for those who want the "acoustic experience" with a little more help. I actually think the dying segment might be acoustic...
Right on. Please post your UA-cam!!! Great share.
I can totally relate since a lot of your old-time ebikers still hang on to their regular mountain bikes. Mostly XC/Trail bikes so they're not so slow. It retains the fitness, sense of accomplishment and keeps one honest. We ride it once a week. The midpower can take its place too for sure.
This person! I have lived in Truckee, since 1995. Low power is a small segment and not for most people. If I had to only have one bike, full power 100%. I have about 10,000 miles on full power Levos. Still have a Gen 3 pro. it's my backup bike. I also ride a Santa Cruz Heckler SL. I ride the SL 90 plus percent of my rides. My rides are usually under 30 miles and under 4,000 feet of climbing. The lower weight bike is fun, poppy, jumpy and playful. Santa Cruz Fazua has it's issues but it it's the best turning bike I have ridden. I am NOT a SC fan but I like this bike. Perfect world, two bikes. Bigger bike for 30 plus mile rides. Better yet, I want go back to swappable batteries. Big batteries for big rides and small batteries on smaller rides, same bike. I like the Levo SL but battery is too small for 25 plus miles and 4,000 feet of climbing. Mid power Santa Cruz I can keep up with full power bikes if they are riding on trail or less no problem. I also don't like some companies making their mid power bikes look lighter than they are by putting light 2.3 tires on them. They are saving a lb on spec sheet weight but kind of unrideable in Tahoe. So let's make weights for trail bike with proper trail components. Mid batteries need to be 400 -500 batteries swappable to 700 plus for all day missions.
@@jeremys4705 yes!! Most of my crew have a full-powered emtb and a regular xc/trail bike. And we ride our XC bikes on shit local trails to stay in shape.
For you guys who live in the Sierras (aka God's country), the second bike is mid-power, and rightfully so.
In the future though, the midpower bikes will have full power and will have an assortment of available batteries.
Truckee has good riding. Just did a trip to Utah, as fun as it was the riding here is much better. Have fun ripping out there.
@@jeremys4705Agree, hard to beat. But if you have not tried Mendocino that place is great. Might be good option when we have snow. I did a little video of it if you have not been there before.See ya out there!
Horses for courses. They are intentionally different, and until battery/motor technology changes and allows a full power to be 40ish pounds with good range, the mid-power fits in perfectly for a lot of riders. I’d argue that most riders of full power eMTBs could ride mid-power and be happy. How much power is enough? The DJI motor and similar will only create more conflict on the trails. After all, we’re riding mountain bike trails. I have a Shuttle SL and it still allows me to get a workout and feel like I’m actually mountain biking.
Francis, when you say things like "The ones who really want midpower are the ones who have never ridden eBikes" - that's not only incorrect, it just comes off as opinionated and dismissive. There are many riders who don't want full assist, we want to put in more effort, and get acceptable range out of midpower bikes using lower assist modes. Range extenders are available if people want them. Some backcountry and secret trails require carrying, lighter weight does have some advantages. It is just a different animal. I really hope you'll consider the feedback, because you're losing credibility by not acknowledging others may not share your personal preferences.
Francis I always love your vids and watch them throughout, thanks! I agree with you on some points, disagree on others. I owned full powered Levos and today I ride the mid-power Levo SL gen2. Definitely agree that it limits options in terms of range - and I'll add also limits how many laps you can "turbo" through if you're limited on time (they don't go as fast as a full power no matter what). However, I do feel much better riding them on the descents - I ride everything around Santa Cruz, incl steeps, jumps, etc and even 4 lbs can definitely be felt on the trail. On the steeps, out of corners, etc. Also, I feel like I'm working out when I'm climbing even when I go to trail mode (I'm in decent shape and rarely use turbo). IMO what's really lacking in the mid-power is the battery - if I had 600Wh and the 50Nm I can do pretty much everything, probably wouldn't even need the extender. But they do feel much closer to a real bike, and frankly when I hit even small drops on the full power I feel like I'm in a tank!
Another point to make - you're spot on that mid-powers have higher end components but I don't think it's just for weight wieny reasons - it's because they're closer to a real bike. For example, you don't really need cushcore on Levo SL if you don't use them on the Enduro. And don't need DH tires if the bike is closer to the weight on a heavy enduro bike. You can even make some compromises on the shock (I agree a Fox 38 would be better, but on the rear the Float X feels just fine to me).
I do think the future is actually convergence towards the middle-high with 42'ish lbs bikes that can do 650-700Wh battery and a good motor (probably 60Nm is enough). That kind of bike can still feel like you're riding an MTB but can also do 4-6 hr rides no problem. My 2c
Had 2 full power ebikes norco vlt and the scor 4060lt. Both 50+ lbs. Been on a santa cruz heckler sl for 1 year now. Cant go back to 50#. Yes, like the boost mode but im still riding 4+hours with less weight. Im all freeride and self shuttle just like full power days but fit enough to not have the boost mode. So yes wouldn't mind getting full power ebike but needs to be 42# or less . Other bike is a Nomad collecting dust unless going to Whistler .Im giving it 1 or 2 more years b4 industry catches up to that weight to power.
Great share @teerakayak1. The Heckler SL and the Ari Nebo are the cream of the crop right now for midpower. Just needs that gosh darn extender.
@@EMTBReview Nah Heckler SL has just been surpassed by the Vala, The Amflow is a markedly better bike than both. Orbea Rise 2025 are cream of the crop.
With same fitness you’d get more laps on full power, no?
As much as dislike the growing pains and prices of SL e-bikes I love having a 40lbs Levo SL. It rides so good and I still get some sense of accomplishment on longer lower power rides. Plus I can argue it descends better than the Stumpjumper EVo. But yeah full power for close to the same weight and hopefully reliable… that could be the best of both worlds for e-bikes.
As a long-ago-retired cross-country racer...I just cannot follow your logic about mid-powered ebikes. They are perfect for my riding. But, have to think that the full-powered ebikes will likely get lighter when their battery density improves with future developments. So, mid-powered and full-powered will merge at some point in time. Kind of looking as though DJI ebikes won't arrive here for quite a l--o--n--g time...
Mid-power is perfect for you but not most IMHO. As you know, I love midpower and have access to all the latest tech. But out of a hundred folks I ride with, maybe only 5 have a midpower... and only as a second bike.
But my point really is they are merging, as you said. Full-power bikes will be more configurable and be under 45 lbs. And under 40 lbs in some configurations
I think you're probably right but unfortunately a full power is not for me .. I have to carry and move my ebike (Rise) around and so need something that's not going to give me a hernia if I try to pick it up. I don't care about the power (seems like you want to get a motorbike if that's the reason someone wants more power). I've beefed up my Rise for the downhills and it really is on the weight limit for me but it's the best way to have an up lift service for where I ride and that's all I'm really paying for.
Good points!! The Rise is really a full power bike though with the old one having so much usable torque and the new one with 85nm of torque now. It's the way of the future i think.
Power is not needed by all but Range is really something wanted by most. Configurable power, batteries, under 45 lbs is in our future I thik.
@@EMTBReview yep, your right - it's less a power thing and much more a range thing.
I guess I'm on the opposite side of the profile you describe but I do see your perspective. Coming from a background of priding myself to be an ultra competitive climber, my experience has given me a different opinion. I started out with a full powered e-bike and found, it gave me excuses to start slacking off. When you give in to the heavy weight of the e-bike, then you start relying on making it do the work. It's only now that I got a Trek Fuel EXe that I feel like I've come home. I find myself capping the motor at 100w and making sure I do at least 150 to 280w. I now feel like I'm really climbing again - only now, faster, longer, more fun. For aq challenge, sometimes I just turn off the motor entirely in my climb. I only use 1/3 the TQ's power ever so I would even go the other way and make it smaller even. I could see how the battery range could be limiting for some but I'm thinking, that is where technology will catch up. Chasing more power does not feel like mountain biking for me . Might as well get a dirt bike . I rode with a group of full power bikes last week. If I may be so blunt, they were all out of shape but they all left me behind as we climbed and I can assure you, I am way more fit than any of them. The word abuse comes to mind. I've also now been upgrading the parts on my bike and make it a sport to make it as light as I can without compromising integrity and reliability. All I know is I'm having fun again and it's the opposite of trying to get more external power on the motor..
I agree and disagree. I think both bikes have there place in the market. If you have long slogs up a fire road and your main focus is the descent, then yes the full power is the way to go. But I would also add that the extra weight does take its toll on your body flinging 50+ pounds around. If your trails are more actual trails like in my area, then the sl/mid power does make more sense. There is no real need for all the power, as you are probably only gaining anywhere from 1500-2500 ft during a pretty long ride. Plus the lighter bike makes it easier to lift up over technical features, and the stealth of them helps keep the cacklers quiet. I have a full power levo and a regular Stumpy evo, I know if I had something right in the middle of them it would be the sweet spot. Basically both bikes have there place in the market and you should buy the one that suits you for 95% of what terrain you are riding.
Very very good point. The ebike helps the rider go uphill. Downhill,it adds to then beating with it added mass. So lighter bikes make for easier descending.
One good development is great suspension and brakes are commonly found now on E
Personally I choose a new bike because of the feelings. During testdrive I check how the bike feels (subjectively). Then I like it or not. All full power bikes feels so heavy to me so I do not like them. And because of this all arguments for range and power do not work for me anymore.
Good points but... where are you able to test ride. Difficult to find a demo on real trails these days.
And the real problem.... it takes about 5 rides to get used to a 50lb ebike. One has to develop the style and the musculature to really dance with an emtb. If you see all my video reviews, I fly and jump now with the emtb and I'm only 150 lbs. And there is very little difference now with how I corner and descend a 42 lb mid power and a 50 lb full power ebike.
I have been riding a full power gen 3 Levo for the past 2 years and agree with you. I come from an xc background and own a24 pound Blur. But the full power Levo I don’t compare directly to my Blur. I’ve developed a different riding style for the Levo and love it. I definitely do not want to give up my 90 nm of torque. Power and suspension tuning make the Levo handle plenty light at 52 pounds.
Hey man, so good to hear your input. I too have been riding a GEN three Levo and a light Santa Cruz blur XC. Such a great combo for me at this point. So much adventure, descending, and hanging on to fitness.
I don't do 'epic rides' as 4 hours is about my limit before I wish I was doing something else. I try to avoid riding with other people if I can. Bunny hopping, jumping stumps n' rocks, and flinging the bike around is fun for me - a heavier bike would be a pain to do this. I live in Michigan where you actually are riding trails immediately, instead of grinding out fireroad climbs before the fun starts. I don't want a lot of assist, as I've found that managing motor output & overrun often gets in the way of riding my bike like a mountain bike - the power bubble sometimes (yes you shimano where eco is too little and trail mode is a bit too much) gets in the way, and I'd rather have less power delivered in a linear and predictable manner over brute torque numbers that look good on a brochure. My Transition Relay is perfect for the riding I like to do, and I'm glad the marketplace offers bikes in this category.
Great input, my good man, thank you. Yeah there is definitely regionality and do this decision matrix.
I have to respectfully disagree. I own a Trek Rail and a Fuel EXe and without question the EXE is a much more enjoyable bike to ride. The low weight and natural pedal feel come together to make a really compelling package. The Rail has always felt like a bulldozer. I’m currently selling the Rail and am looking to purchase a Cannondale Moterra SL 1 which is full power and only 43 lbs so I can keep up with my full fat ebike crew. I would be curious to know your thoughts on that bike.
Great input, so it’s very much appreciated. The two Bike ebikes stable is definitely a big part of the future. As far as the Cannondale, I don’t have any experience but, it’s really feels like the equivalent of the latest orbea rise.
EMTBs that allow you to quickly swap batteries is the best option. The Repeater (full power) and Relay (mid-power) allow my son and I to quickly swap batteries and have big days out without worrying about battery conservation.
I think swappable batteries are going away. The reason is too many compromises in frame design, rigidity and weight.
In its place, we’ll get 400/600/800 wh battery options and extender battery options
@@EMTBReview the bigger batteries simply don’t offer a good enough replacement for the ability quickly swap batteries mid ride. I can burn up 20% of a 720wh battery in about 20 minutes on my favorite loop that features a 1000ft descent and climb back to the top. The big batteries are also much heavier and range extenders don’t allow use of the water bottle cage.
@@andersonsridebikes point taken. Folks who actually do multi-battery rides regularly are a niche market and only 5-10% of the market at best. 800wh batteries with 250wh extenders will suffice for most.
Something interesting about multi-battery 'turbo' rides... the ebike helps you in climbs. And the ebike beats you up more in descents. Soooo, a rad ride with two batteries and 15,000 feet of elevation is like.... 4000 feet of climbing effort. It is about the 20,000 feet of descending effort. That bike weight is hard on the body, but yes, it is sooo much fun IMHO.
@@EMTBReview I understand your point about representing a small group of EMTB riders. I do wish more riders would think that way though! And I completely agree that big days out of the full power are a great workout! Your descending endurance will skyrocket with a few of those big rides
I have a full power Specialized Turbo Levo and I love it. I bought it 18 months ago and hardly ever ride my other bikes, unless I am going to a bike park with lift service. For me riding a bike has never been about fitness. I don't ride a bike to get in shape, I ride a bike because I love riding. I go to the gym to stay in shape. So for me, the reasoning that you don't get a workout riding an e-bike is pointless.
I just don't see the point in a mid-power EMTB for me. If I'm going to ride an EMTB I want all the power. If I want to ride a lighter bike, I'll use my regular pedal bike. I can see how they are good for some people that want to do group rides with regular pedal bikes, or for people that want to get a workout. But in general I don't think the mid-power EMTB is going to last. Especially since the full power bikes are getting better, lighter, and more power options.
Mid power is the future full power will go to urban biking or commuter bike. 40+ lbs emtb is the way to go. Most trail and enduro bike weighs 33-40lbs so adding power will make the 40+ lbs emtb feel like 30lbs or less
Got rid of my 56 lb bike and loving my Rise. One is like a Tundra and the Orbea is like a Miata. Can’t argue with simple physics. You can add a battery to a light weight bike for those occasional long ride but you can’t take anything off a heavy bike for the everyday ride.
I think both styles of bikes have their places. I have both. I have a Mondraker Level R, super enduro with 180 travel and a full power Bosch motor. I also ride a Santa Cruz Heckler SL with the mid power Fazua Drive and 160/150 travel.
When I ride easier, blue or green trails, with less than 2000 feet of climbing, I take the Heckler SL. Also, the Heckler SL is stealthy. Here in Colorado, there are still haters out there. Most of the time, the Heckler SL is not identified as an e-bike. So, if there is more traffic on the trails (weekends), I take the Heckler SL.
When I am doing long hard climbs, black diamond or greater trails, I take the full power Mondraker Level. When I ride in a group, (usually most have full power bikes) I almost always take the Mondraker Level. When the going gets tough, it's better to have the weight, travel, and power! For fun flow trails and easier, shorter routes, the Heckler SL is the best!
The future of the mid power bike might be as the second bike on the ebike stable.
Had a 2020 35 NM Levo SL. Sold it got a 2022 Turbo Levo. The Levo SL was much more fun to ride. I slacked the front end to 64 degrees and put a Lyric Ultimate and SRAM RSC brakes on it. Loved it. The new SL is awesome.
I ride a Pivot Shuttle SL and love it as it rides like a normal bike but the most important aspect for me is that my friends ride analogue bikes. Range anxiety is real though and weight seems to be a stupid argument now.
You nailed it with that statement “why not just get a 19# hardtail and go all day”
My hardtail isn’t that light but I do like it a lot.
The other reason why I have no desire for eMTBs is I don’t have any desire to use burley components and wear a full face or storm trooper pads, or launch 🚀 off roof tops. I’m ok being on a hardtail and taking blues and greens, why not?
Yup. if you're getting out often on the hardtail or xc bike and having a blast, then no need for E. A lot of E is appropriate for those who want to ride more, steeper and progress with sport.
I had an early levo SL, which was too low powered compared to my full power Levo. I’m into a comfortable ride so I have Push fork and Push shock on my Levo and it’s just unbelievable. If I want to go for a light ride on a gravel road I have a Creo, which is perfect. I live in the Bay Area at about 2012 feet and when I ride down to Milpitas, I have to get up that hill every time so the Creo works great for that. On the Levo, I can go for a 5 mile ride with 1000 feet of climbing or 25 mile ride. At 70 years old I love what I have. I got into serious cycling when I was 28. I’ve been doing it for about 42 years. The number one factor is how much fun you can have.
I love my mid power Shuttle SL. I have not exhausted the battery (yet). It’s is quiet and incognito. I still get a fair workout. I do have FAZUA anxiety …..
Dji have completely destroyed this segment. 120nm, up to 1000watts of power assistance. 800watt battery in a lightweight frame with burly Enduro quality components.
A 10k Trek with a TQ motor producing 50nm with 360watt battery, makes very little sense now. Orbea with the rise was already a better option. The Avinox powered Amflow has moved the game on significantly. Sure there's the sceptics out there, who will always state untested in the real world. However Dji are already a significant market leader in what they do. I'm sure it will be supported. All the mainstream suppliers need to catch up literally. Bosch is trying with the Gen 5, but still lagging in terms of specs. Amflow has a surefire hit. 👍👌
I had a beautiful Orbea Rise pedal assist. I adapted to the 29 inch wheels well enough, and it was playful and relatively lightweight. Very easy to ride when the motor was disengaged as well. Plus the EP8 motor is re-tunable. Thieves managed to take it from me. I'll be getting another one before long.
Great video! I have a Rise and Levo full power (and several struggle buggies). The Rise gets the most use. For most rides, it has plenty of power and range. I upgraded my suspension/travel, so it rides better (in my opinion). It's more nimble but heavy enough to be stable when riding down rough trails. The Levo has the Rise beat if I feel lazy and want to hit the "Easy" button. We'll see what the next crop of full-power bikes looks like.. the new lighter full-power motors and batteries might sway me to drop the Rise
I concur. My wife rides a liv intruege E1. Full carbon, 90nm, 400watts. We crush 20milers in turbo mode with plenty of battery to spare. Could do 30miles. I hate giant, they hate their customers. But. That setup is the package. I ride a transition relay PT. 90 nm, like 750wattbatt. If they remade that bike with half or even 1/4”the battery, i’d all in. It would drop the weight and keep the torque. If i needed to rip with the big boy bikes , strap on the extender. (I dont think Repeater doesn’t have one yet and honestly would be overkill).
So yeah. Give me an SL with a modular battery. 250 wats per cell and let me add what i want for the day. Or. Give a a 400 or 600 watt extender.
I think 90nm with modular batteries is the perfect design.
We have a few ebikes , full power and least power ( turbo Vado SL) I ride the 35 mm SL the most , it's perfect where I live and ride( no mountains) and it's so light I can pedal it for miles with a dead battery 😊
Perfectly matched and executed
Fairly obvious where emtb's are going. In the Amflow direction.
Very true
currently ride a gen3 levo and love everything about it. But... would love to have the ability to swap out the battery to a smaller one for my usual 2 hr rides. I don't normally use more than 50% of the battery but carrying around 100% of the weight all the time sounds like an inefficiency that can easily be addressed.
for my type of riding, i think an orbea rise would be my next bike. prior to the new generation of Rise, i've always wondered why they couldn't give people the option of using all the available power in the EP801RS motor... if they could "detune" it to use up less battery, surely they could allow people to "uptune" it to get more power but use up more battery. That was the main reason I ended up getting a Levo. But now with the new generation of Rise, they did exactly what I wanted them to do in the first place.
By the way, they should release a firmware update to allow owners of previous generation of Rise to "uptune" their EP801RS motor to 80nm from 60nm.
In the bike park I find my spectral:on jumps almost as well my Status 160 and I find myself over shooting more jumps with the spectral:on because it carries speed more for some reason
This is what I observe as well. In a place with real jumps, the 50 pound bike will jump just as well or better.
The key is for the rider to get used to the bike and a different, jumping style. After all, motocross bikes, lie hundreds of feet in the air in the right hands.
Bought the Canyon Torque On six months ago. It's 57 pounds with 900 watt hour battery and I love it! The only time I notice the weight is when I load it in the truck.
Yeah buddy, I have the new pivot shuttle SL and it feels so light and agile on the trail. But when I lift it onto the truck, it’s definitely 50+
IMO, weight matters a lot when descending. I have a Heckler and a range of pedal bikes from downcountry to DH, and all my descending PRs are on the pedal bikes. They just feel way more dynamic and agile descending than a 50 lb. bike does.
Fully agree - "modular" bikes - the same bike, with the same motor and possibility to easy extend range (with extenders) will save the money for the company. Extenders can be even internal! For new Trek Slash Plus You can easily swap 580 battery and 360 battery - no external extender. Now imagine internal extenger!
Internal extender batteries.... absolutely!!!! I want a 400wh internal and extend that to 800 for the weekend rides. All internal.
the full power/light debate has the usual answer ... "it depends". I live at sea level and all the trails i ride have little to no elevation. I have no use for a full power emtb. I ride a SL and usually only ride at 50% power at most and I can get 3 rides on one charge (320wh battery).
I have a 2023 Rise EP801 H10. With the upgrade from Shimano I now have access to the overall 85Nm full power. My mates all have full power and we all stay together. Battery wise we are also fairly close to over usage.
Yeah, that is a great bike and ahead of its time when it comes to mid power
Man, at 6'2" and 250 pounds, full power for me. Removable batteries are also a must with spares.
I think if the Fazua sorts out there issues then the Relay would be a perfect mid power bike. I looked at the 2025 PNW build last weekend in a large and with the pedals it was just over 45lbs. If you remove the battery to ride it at a bike park it is 40lbs which is 3lb lighter than my DH bike.
I rode a few full power e-mtbs before buying my Ari Nebo. I do love to jump and the heavier bikes just didn't feel right. A lot of my local trails (DFW area) are pretty flat and twisty and I feel plenty fast enough, any faster would exceed my cornering skill. One thing you didn't mention was rider weight. I'm a skinny guy (5'11 155lbs) and bike weight makes a bigger difference than to a bigger, stronger rider. A 60nm motor propelling me up a hill would be similar to 220lb person with an 85nm motor.
Thanks for sharing! Rider weight, regionality, style are huge factors… and you mention all of them. AND, you did your test rides.
3:48 - TQ used a lot more energy comparing to (also lighweight) Fazua Ride 60 - about 45% more energy! Well that being said there is a big problem with TQ motor. I'd like to see also new dji Avinox and ZF engines in that comparasion.
Yeah the TQ is not an energy efficient motor. I saw a German magazine test on this too and it confirmed my findings.
I don’t like having battery anxiety. Full Power Emtb if I’m going to buy a new ebike 😎
Yeah man. Mid power bike means battery anxiety or battery management all the way
@@EMTBReview Yep! I don’t need those negative vibes from a Mid power ebike. It’s all about having more ride time. Pivot with a 1000 watt battery 🔋 Sold 😎
I can tune my Levo to be very stingy on the power unless I’m putting in a lot of work. I can’t tune my Kenevo SL to pour on the power. I love them both but the Levo is more flexible and the KSL more niche.
I had a Full power Levo for 2 years now I ride a Levo SL I really prefer less weight, gain agility and pedal harder.
I have a full power eMTB and a non e trail bike. That’s the perfect combination for me. Around half the time, I’m riding the trail bike. The full power eMTB is a super versatile machine though.
Totally agree! It is good to have a versatile machine like the full power with a great range. For a second bike, most opt for a regular mountain bike or a mid power is a good option as well and these are things that make it easy to keep one’s Peak fitness.
I haven't transitioned to e-mtb. If I do I'd definitely go with more power at a pound or two more than a lightweight e-mtb.
One thing that led me to a mid is the bikes seem more refined. Up until a couple weeks ago, the Bosch and shimano rattle and sound like the bike has marbles in the motor. I like quiet and a bike that is better integrated
Exactly. Available technology is a key factor and midpower bikes were more refined and integrated. Specialized can Kenevo, SL and Trek fuel Exe were incredible packages.
But it turns out, they’re not that usable. So when full power versions of these arrive, I think more customers will be happy.
@@EMTBReview agree the 50nm bikes are weak. My Fazua has been great. However, some have had bad experience with Fazua reliability. In our MTB club we have three people on heckler SL’s and no problems so far
Amflow has made the full power SL emtb. The DJI motor is pretty impressive.
No doubt my friend. That DJI motor is so ahead of its time but it was the competition away. The bike doesn’t even matter and many are willing to spend $10,000 on a no-name frame.
The US based companies are lucky that Bike will not be available in the US for at least a year.
Off a full power on the Nebo. No desire to go full power right now till they’re 40/42 lbs
The Nebo is a cool bike for sure. Just need that darn extender battery.
@@EMTBReview honestly I don’t, I get it tho. I have a young family so I have to be home well before the extender would come into play. I’m good for 3500 foot purely in boost.
@6:41 Bingo! I'm an old analog biker and weight was/is the holy grail for me. My 'old' Giant XTC (full suspension) is 28# (with pedals) and the thought of a 53# bike is sorta scary to me. One of these days I'll actually ride an e-bike.
Seems Orbea are expanding on the concept developped by Giant with their Trance Elite more than a year ago by adding battery options to a configurable motor, torque & power, (in the app) on a rather lightweight e-mtb. Adding battery options to configure the bike to one’s liking makes this the best option! Great content 👍
You know…. YES! Orbea, Giant, Cannondale!
I wonder what the next Levo will look like…
New Spesh... anytime now... 😊
Decoy SN showed up last week and it’s a blast! Notably less power but so much more poppy and fun!
For me it’ll be my usual bike and the old Decoy Full Power will be for bigger days and group rides where the others only wanna ride Turbo 🙄
Thanks for sharing!! it is so cool to hear that yt bikes is coming up with new product again
I personally don’t care for heavy full power ebikes. In New England there are a lot of janky section (even in blue trails) that if don't have expert level technical skills you will be hike biking a lot. My ideal ebike will have to be in the 40 to 45lbs range. I will be using the ebike during my lunch hour to get a quick lap in the local woods. The longest rides I will do will be around 4 hours. I think a Marin Rift Zone EL is the perfect bike for what I am planning to do.
Yeah buddy, there is definitely some regionality to this decision process. If you don’t have the big mountains and the fast ebike group rides, it is a different dynamic. And I hear the East Coast techie is a real deal.
Francis, where did the bike weight data come from? Fully agree with the comment about the Trek Rail Vs the Trek EXe Rode both got the EXe 8 with the components i wanted. Have not tried turbo. The bike gets up everything and feels like an analog bike.
On the spreadsheets in the video, I made those all myself, including the time measurements using power meter testing. That what you're referring to?
I thought the bike weights were a bit light by 5-8 pounds.
Which of these sl ebikes do not have the motor rattle while decending? Thanks
Fazua Ride 60, Trek TQ, Specialized Levo have no rattle at all. Allegedly, the new Bosch CX Gen 5 has no rattle.
@@EMTBReview thank you sir. You should do a review on the slash+
I love my 1500W bafang bike for single track. Absolutely rips
I think that motor has gobs of torque too
@@EMTBReview yup 160nm! I mainly ride on motorbike single track so its perfect for that. with 26x4 fat tyres. Blurring the line between E-MX and E-MTB but its a fun bike to ride
i have both turbo levo and a trek e caliber.
You say range in terms of efficiency is the factor and yet the ride 60 bikes are clearly more efficient @13ft climbing per wh than the levo @ less than 9ft climbing per wh? The fuel exe is about the same as the levo and Levo SL is between those bikes and the fazua bikes.
I just sold my full power bike and have kept my transition relay. Yes it's expensive but definitely worth it. Having said that the DJI motor and battery system will eat everyone's lunch by the looks and there is no reason to have less power if it weighs the same. More modular battery options will be the go especially if we can get something lightweight solid state, that will be the game changer.
That is a great observation about the data. I posted and measured myself. Thank you for pointing that out.
In the test, I am only climbing 500 feet full turbo and extrapolating data. What’s not obvious in the chart is the full powered E bikes, are climbing at a much faster pace. Because of that, the rider in s not able to help as much or as long.
That being said, the Fazua ride 60 is one efficient motor.
Money doesn’t lie. (Ppl lie 😂) - At this point : the best answer - BOTH. (e.g. turbo levo for everything and kenevo for downhill especial) - Only one allowed? Hands down Levo. Sales figure basically shows LEVO is dominating the market. So, it’s undeniably the main market trend.
Again, have both. Problem solved.
Full power will just keep getting lighter with more power until there are no more “mid” power. They’ll all have crazy power and be very light.
Yes, that's basically what I'm saying. Light, configurable full power will make mid power obsolete.
Love my SL e bike! Don’t know what these haters are talking about…
Think you're dead right. If DJI offered a 400Wh battery that automatically reduced max power you'd have the best of both worlds
I see e-mountain bikes, trying to go the same direction as direct-to-consumer e-bikes have went. Trying to get more and more power. This is going to cost the entire industry in the long run. At some point they’re building small motorcycles that are powered with the pedals. This is not gonna be allowed on typical bicycle trails. The other major difference is going to be, the components put in these higher powered bicycles. For the high-power market they’re looking for thrill seekers not really necessarily mountain bikers. So they are putting the cheapest products on that. They can find in order to keep the price low. Can you say Velotric? The more serious type of rider is looking for the highest quality components, and willing to pay for it. Many of these more serious riders go into competitions, which are only going to allow a, say class one, E bike to be there. If the eMTB Industry continues to embrace this it will cause a drastic reduction in their popularity. If we are just looking at the e-bike industry in general, the general public has a wildly negative view of them. I would hate to see this happen with the e-mountain bike industry as well.
There is always that danger. But the saving grace is the class 1 category of E bike, restricts average motor power to 250 W. I do think all major mountain bike manufacturers will stick with class 1.
@@EMTBReview but you also have to consider that the more they make these like peddling motorcycles, the more the general public absolutely hates them and thinks they are all the same. They far out number the mountain bikers and the ones that caused a problem are much more noticeable. Hence the general public sees bikes as a problem, and the more these manufactures power them up the more this is going to increase. I did a video about the banning of bikes in a certain town. It kind of went viral, not sure why maybe just the timing. But there were over 3000 comments and it showed me that the general public has no idea about the reality of e-bikes and that they do not have a favorable view of them.
@@southernebikingI agree. I'm old enough to remember mountain bikers having to fight hard to get rights to trails. Equestrians and hikers were very opposed to them and to some extent some are still. E-bikes flying down trails is going to cause issues. "Rights" are a flimsy thing that can be revoked anytime.
@@joerapo you had mentioned that you were old enough to remember something Joe. I am old enough to remember in the 1980s when the CPSC did study on three wheeled motorcycles. They determined that they were too dangerous and so they banned the sale of them throughout the United States. this was not just the faster ones that were built for racing but the ones that were built for on the farm and ranch as well. No longer able to get them after January 1988. I would certainly hate to see that happen in the world as well and the CPS is studying the safety of E bikes as we speak.
I disagree with no.3 I think a lot of people do care about weight and handling just check the comment section lol. As for mid power emtbs I think the idea of a lightweight emtb won't go away the industry will just do what Orbea/Amflow are doing with battery sizes/weight.
Point taken. My prediction is bikes with full power motors are going to get lighter with modular batteries.
Bikes like the Orbea Rise and Cannondale Neo are examples. DJI bike too
There is no Standardisation on motor-mounts and battery,not for me,only bio-bike❤
I don't think we'll see it in the next decade unfortunately.
Video ends abruptly at 10:42 and there is something wrong with your audio (high pitched "digital echo")
As soon as solid state batteries come into the industry, yeah the mid power motors will be pointless. Also the DJI motor will change things.
Tell us more about solid state batteries? What's the upside and how many years before we see it in bikes?
And yes, the DJI motor is earth-shaking. The only upside for the US competition is it will be a year or two before we see a DJI bike sold in the USA.
Just wait for it to come out to America!!! 😌
MGU and Belt, the rest is old school.
That is great technology for sure, but it will probably get one percent of the US market in three years. So it will be very niche.
The mid power bike IS the future. I think people are getting blinded. They don’t see the forest for the trees.
Look far into the future. No technological limitations. What do you see?
What I see is a sub 30 pound bike with unlimited range and power up to about 750 watts - this is because this is about as much power as anyone ever actually needs on something that’s made to be a bicycle. This is essentially a full-powered bike at the weight of a push bike with no motor or battery at all. Yes, it’s a technological marvel.
So where are we on this scale? The full powered bikes will continue to be at about that weight for the forseeable future. They don’t sacrifice the power, because that’s what they’re for. The weight is a secondary consideration. The range is a more important consideration, and will probably be increased until it’s about 1kWh or so for the current weight standards, which would more or less be unlimited for most people. Very specialized bikes might go up to 2kWh so long as the cost and the weight are kept to what we have now.
Lightweight bikes are pushing the weight envelope, so they’re driving the tech to the mythical 30 pound ebike. I think about 25-30 pounds is about the sweet spot for that sort of machine, at which point they’ll start adding on more power and capacity, while keeping it at that weight. They’re not quite at the weight target, though.
How do we know this? Gravel ebikes are already there. Modern gravel ebikes are already sub-30 pounds, and we’re already seeing a push towards more capacity and more power. So long as they keep it sub-30, it’ll meet the needs of the people who want that class of bike, which is a bike that’s easy to flick around and maneuver, easy to pedal unpowered, and easy to lift and carry around for short distances.
40 lb full power e-bikes bro, think DJI way to go bro! 😉
Who wants to go a 50-pound full power e-bike, you get the same thing DJI full power at 42lbs future!!
It’ll be a long time, if ever, for it to come to the US.
An e bike should have at least a 720 watt battery. You want that range.
For most uses with real mountains, yeah. Modularity in batteries too so one can choose the cofiguration given short weekday rides and long/adventure weekend rides.
end of the video freezes and gets cut off fyi
No fun to be the mid power rider in the full power ride group.
And that is the other factor here. With 80% of the market, buying full power, likely the people do you want to ride with will have full power, so it is tough to have mid power unless you are much fitter than them.
The demographics of ebike ownership is probably why full power will win out.
Correct. Folks want options too. Technology will deliver lighter full power bikes as well
They are 1000% better than hub drive so I highly doubt it but hey it’s a video 🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I know it's an opinion piece but many of your statements just aren't backed up by facts.
They are hard-core facts in my brain! Feel free to disagree, though on any point
Sorry to say, but I think you should think to hire someone who edit your videos, no offense... the Audio is awful at times, you use same images and videos from the last videos... very low edit quality video. This content is more for a blog or article format, my opinion. Good luck
You're a bit of a sensationalist dude. 6 months ago you were saying the whole industry is shifting away from Shimano motors.
I’m just sharing insight away from the obvious.
Yes, folks are moving away from Shimano motors. Pivot has now left Suimano and they were the key ally. Now Santa Cruz has left Shimano motors.
Many more are going to switch
If you don’t buy a full powered emtb, you might as well just keep riding a regular mtb, the low powered ones are not worth the expense for the minor power and lack of decent range
This is what 80% of my peers are thinking, especially for the first ebike.
No Way. Won’t go back to analog but I don’t need/want full power, weight, and battery.
Not true. You're saying there isn't anything in the middle between two extremes. A mid powered ebike such as the Heckler SL or Nebo Peak has plenty of pep, and the range is quite good. You can easily be in the saddle for three hours with plenty of climbing, and the bike has better descending/handling characteristics than a full power bike. Most people don't have the time nor the inclination to be in the saddle for 4+ hours. And they may not want to fully give up some fitness element of mountain biking... But they also don't want to suffer through long, tough climbs and thus not be able to get in many downhills laps... Mid powered bikes are a happy medium that work very well for a lot of people.
Who told you the mid power bikes lack decent range?
The move is keep your regular bike and buy a
Full power eMTB
I’m being forced to own a regular full suspension MTB, a mid powered E-MTB and a high powered E-MTB. LIFE IS GRAND. 😅