Problem is simple ! range > to fire power and you have a better armored and more effective short range unit aka irondrakes ! there is currently little reasons to use grudge rakers over irondrakes that are cheaper ,tankier ,deal more damages to anything not heavily armored . They arent a bad unit they are just stuck in the middle of a very good roster with very competitive units !
@@olafthemoose9413 deadly to any large entity or unit, also chew highly armored infantry unit. Careful around magic and perforant missiles and or your own irondrakes😉
Trollhammer torpedoes can have a decent stack with 3 thanes boosting their ammo and 3 grudge settler irondrakes to cover against infantry, pretty easy to play also. I found stacking irondrakes with 4 thunderers and heroes works really well against early game enemies, pretty cheap and easy to recruit. I’ll add a grudge settler flame cannon for siege attacker if you don’t have it with your lord Edit: Vanilla Legendary/VH max AI cheats for reference.
I've been disappointed with my flame cannons lately as well. They used to have insane damage output but several times I've been surprised when I check on damage done and find very little compared to my copters.
My issue with them is there low range, the enemy has to be really close to you for them to start firing and they after only like one volley the enemy gets to close to your army that you don’t want to cause friendly fire on. By that point I just get the normal flame thrower unit, at least it’s easier to move them around and flank enemy’s.
Could you make a video for the Empire next? I would be interested to see what units and army comps work best after some of the patches that nerfed things like Hochland Scopes.
Good list overall, but I think you're being a bit harsh on grudge rakers. You can put a couple of them in a ground based army, put them in middle of checkerboard, and they will get tens of thousands of damage. They are also great for holding choke points.
I really don't like their short range and how they don't damage infantry though. Iron drakes get thousands of kills shooting in a choke point, whereas grudge rakers struggle to get even a 100 kills like that. They are only good at killing large monsters, but thunderers already do a much better job, are cheaper and a tier lower.
I had this Malakai mission about chorfs with the train. I sniped the mortar and the train with two torpedo copters. They killed an 11k hp unit in two volleys. I don't want to be on the receiving end of that.
I don't know if you've seen the trollhammer irondrake doomstack. Infinite ammo and close to if not 100 dmg with super long range. Yeah you need to play grombrindal for infinite ammo but I was able to do it as belegar and it took on 3 full skaven stacks in 8 minutes.
I know, I saw it, never used it though, so I forgot to mention it in the doomstack section of the video, but they are only really strong in that situation. If you were looking at getting them for your standard armies, thunderers perform much better.
looking forward to more of these videos , gives a decent overview of what the faction can bring to the table, are you going to be doing the old world races first or just pick one add hoc ?
I'll still see which ones I will do first, I was expecting a bit more feedback to help me make the decision, but I guess I'll do the ones I play most first and then move on from there.
Don't agree with all, but that's natural. Maybe, if you allow, show us how to begin as Settra, specially how to deal with the big red one. And as next race, how about lizards? Those are one of my private favourite ones, sadly bit outdated, but still good. What's your thinking about them?
Lizards would probably be among the last ones I do, considering I'm not a dinosaur enjoyer :P, but I'll see if I might be able to do something for Settra.
They are actually lower dps, but higher kill count, which can be worse in a lot of situations, especially when killing units with high health sizes, and arcing your shoots is worthless as dwarfs considering they are genetically gifted in their size so they can shoot straight over the heads of their frontline. It's just a higher upkeep worse unit compared to thunderers, but if you enjoy using them that is fine, I enjoy using slayers now even though they are still the worst infantry unit in the game.
@@CultistOfkhorne I admit it I might be wrong, and if I am making a mistake here, please correct me. I have warhammer 2 open right now (i dont have 3), I'm just using the numbers it says under missile strength Torpedos deal 32 base + 126 AP = 158 total damage per 18 seconds for one unit, or 9dps per unit. With 21 units in a squad that's 189 dps. Thunderers deal 5 base + 17 AP = 22 total damage per 11.7 seconds for one unit, or 2dps per unit. With 60 units in a squad, that's 120dps. If I'm not missing anything (which I think I might be considering every guide/tier list I've watched ranks them low and I don't understand why), then they have 50% higher dps than thunderers, deal a higher percentage of AP damage, deal anti-large in addition to all this (+24 to both base and AP which isn't included here), and also arc, which I think is quite significant. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still trying to learn this game and you have more experience than me.
Unfortunately stats aren't the best indicator to how a unit will perform. Like I said They do kill individual models a lot more than thunderers, but what happens, more than likely, is they overkill them and end up wasting ammo, so even though they will do more damage, most of it is getting wasted. That was one problem, the second is they will miss a lot of their shoots if they are targeting faster moving large units, which will end up wasting even more damage, and because of their long reload this makes it so they are punished heavily. Trollhammer torpedoes are good, but they are less versatile than thunderers, because even though thunderers will end up killing less units, they will dish out more damage and will rarely miss their targets.
Strongly disagree about Irondrakes /Trollhammer torp, Cannons and Flame guns: combine them to delete any SEM and infantry I also don't use 2 turns recruitment defensive infantry, they don't add enough , except Hammerers (1 unit) to kill resistant units
Resistant units? You mean units with physical resistance, because if that's the case, you do realize that most of those unit types have 0 armor and are really easy to kill with any ranged unit. And ironbreakers are definitely worth being recruited, as they will dish out more damage than hammerers and will hold the line for longer.
@@CultistOfkhorne was talking about things like Vlad, Archaeon... Maybe that's me but I don't like units with more than 1 turn recruitment unless they're real good (Thunderbarge!)
They are kind of not that great, they aren't as bad at killing low tier infantry as regular slayers, but they actually struggle to kill anything that is higher tier or has a bonus vs infantry. If you buff them enough they can work and, unlike the non ranged slayers, they can win against worse odds, but I personally dislike using them.
Well they aren't a doomstack, grapeshot has been nerfed so now it's worse than organ guns, and it is only available for Malakai, not every single dwarf.
Maybe it's more of a personal preference, but thunderers are cheaper, you can get them sooner, they almost have the same range, and are good in every situation. Whereas trollhammers are very slow to fire and even though they get a good amount of kills, they lag behind at dishing out damage. I was thinking of placing them as situational, but I can't think of a situation where I would rather have them over thunderes, or regular irondrakes.
So hard disagree on bolt throwers. I have crap.stacked with them agains many armies and they rock. As not thorek even. Are they as good as gyros? No but what is?
@alkemist777 They are not like doomstackable. But I would say they are the most versatile artilery the dwarfs have until organ guns are available. Jack of all trades if you will. If you give them the rune that adds explosive damage, they delete infantry. They do good enough without the rune as well because they fire 8 shots, and each one can kill multiple entities. With the rune that give bonus to large and seeking projectiles, they handle single entities very well and do decently against cav. They have the downside of slightly less range as other options, but having double the unit size makes up for the damage decrease. So, while they are not as good as grudgethrowers against infantry and not as good as cannons against large units. They can be used against almost anything with decent to good results.
@@danielgloyd4529 for reference I have beaten a full stack of brettonians and their settlement with just a lord and 19 bolt throwers. In a field battle with them having midterm cav. So approx 33 units against 20. I have also beaten 2 full stacks of ogres in a similar fashion though that stack did have some grudge throwers. They aren't a bad crap stack and in melee they can hold their own as the crew is 80ish entities compared to grudge thrower 40ish. Also that poor nurgle stack against 5 bolts and 2 grudge throwers..... completely deleted.
You are so wrong about the thunders with blunderbusses. They delete entire units almost instantly.
Problem is simple ! range > to fire power and you have a better armored and more effective short range unit aka irondrakes ! there is currently little reasons to use grudge rakers over irondrakes that are cheaper ,tankier ,deal more damages to anything not heavily armored .
They arent a bad unit they are just stuck in the middle of a very good roster with very competitive units !
bro you smoke insulation foam, hammerers are insane, one of the best
Agreed
The gyrocopter torpedoes are no joke, just with one unit of them I was able to take out the likes of Skarbrand in just two or three volley’s.
arguably more powerful unit than the thunderbarge
@@olafthemoose9413 deadly to any large entity or unit, also chew highly armored infantry unit. Careful around magic and perforant missiles and or your own irondrakes😉
only 15 min video? thats not detailed enough, wheres my 45+ cultist video?
Trollhammer torpedoes can have a decent stack with 3 thanes boosting their ammo and 3 grudge settler irondrakes to cover against infantry, pretty easy to play also.
I found stacking irondrakes with 4 thunderers and heroes works really well against early game enemies, pretty cheap and easy to recruit.
I’ll add a grudge settler flame cannon for siege attacker if you don’t have it with your lord
Edit: Vanilla Legendary/VH max AI cheats for reference.
I've been disappointed with my flame cannons lately as well. They used to have insane damage output but several times I've been surprised when I check on damage done and find very little compared to my copters.
My issue with them is there low range, the enemy has to be really close to you for them to start firing and they after only like one volley the enemy gets to close to your army that you don’t want to cause friendly fire on. By that point I just get the normal flame thrower unit, at least it’s easier to move them around and flank enemy’s.
With Malakai flame cannons are really good when they get their dig in ability. They are definitely not the best artillery choice for everyone else.
Could you make a video for the Empire next? I would be interested to see what units and army comps work best after some of the patches that nerfed things like Hochland Scopes.
Yeah, I am working on it atm.
This is exactly the video I've been looking for before I start my Malakia game thank you :D
Got any videos on how to build the lords and heroes?
No, but considering how many people ask, I might do one eventually, just a general guide on how to level up your characters.
@CultistOfkhorne that would be epic thanks bro, got ya self a sub
Good list overall, but I think you're being a bit harsh on grudge rakers. You can put a couple of them in a ground based army, put them in middle of checkerboard, and they will get tens of thousands of damage. They are also great for holding choke points.
I really don't like their short range and how they don't damage infantry though. Iron drakes get thousands of kills shooting in a choke point, whereas grudge rakers struggle to get even a 100 kills like that. They are only good at killing large monsters, but thunderers already do a much better job, are cheaper and a tier lower.
@@CultistOfkhorne SHORT
I had this Malakai mission about chorfs with the train. I sniped the mortar and the train with two torpedo copters. They killed an 11k hp unit in two volleys.
I don't want to be on the receiving end of that.
Feeling slightly better and now playing some shorts so I can turn off my brain during battles, thanks cultist.
Great video!!!
Thanks!
I don't know if you've seen the trollhammer irondrake doomstack. Infinite ammo and close to if not 100 dmg with super long range. Yeah you need to play grombrindal for infinite ammo but I was able to do it as belegar and it took on 3 full skaven stacks in 8 minutes.
I know, I saw it, never used it though, so I forgot to mention it in the doomstack section of the video, but they are only really strong in that situation. If you were looking at getting them for your standard armies, thunderers perform much better.
looking forward to more of these videos , gives a decent overview of what the faction can bring to the table, are you going to be doing the old world races first or just pick one add hoc ?
I'll still see which ones I will do first, I was expecting a bit more feedback to help me make the decision, but I guess I'll do the ones I play most first and then move on from there.
Don't agree with all, but that's natural. Maybe, if you allow, show us how to begin as Settra, specially how to deal with the big red one. And as next race, how about lizards? Those are one of my private favourite ones, sadly bit outdated, but still good. What's your thinking about them?
Lizards would probably be among the last ones I do, considering I'm not a dinosaur enjoyer :P, but I'll see if I might be able to do something for Settra.
@@CultistOfkhorne Thanks a lot Milord.
Torpedos are just higher dps thunderers that can also arc dude. There's no reason not to switch to them late game.
They are actually lower dps, but higher kill count, which can be worse in a lot of situations, especially when killing units with high health sizes, and arcing your shoots is worthless as dwarfs considering they are genetically gifted in their size so they can shoot straight over the heads of their frontline.
It's just a higher upkeep worse unit compared to thunderers, but if you enjoy using them that is fine, I enjoy using slayers now even though they are still the worst infantry unit in the game.
@@CultistOfkhorne I admit it I might be wrong, and if I am making a mistake here, please correct me. I have warhammer 2 open right now (i dont have 3), I'm just using the numbers it says under missile strength
Torpedos deal 32 base + 126 AP = 158 total damage per 18 seconds for one unit, or 9dps per unit. With 21 units in a squad that's 189 dps.
Thunderers deal 5 base + 17 AP = 22 total damage per 11.7 seconds for one unit, or 2dps per unit. With 60 units in a squad, that's 120dps.
If I'm not missing anything (which I think I might be considering every guide/tier list I've watched ranks them low and I don't understand why), then they have 50% higher dps than thunderers, deal a higher percentage of AP damage, deal anti-large in addition to all this (+24 to both base and AP which isn't included here), and also arc, which I think is quite significant.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still trying to learn this game and you have more experience than me.
Unfortunately stats aren't the best indicator to how a unit will perform. Like I said They do kill individual models a lot more than thunderers, but what happens, more than likely, is they overkill them and end up wasting ammo, so even though they will do more damage, most of it is getting wasted.
That was one problem, the second is they will miss a lot of their shoots if they are targeting faster moving large units, which will end up wasting even more damage, and because of their long reload this makes it so they are punished heavily.
Trollhammer torpedoes are good, but they are less versatile than thunderers, because even though thunderers will end up killing less units, they will dish out more damage and will rarely miss their targets.
Grudge rakers aren't that bad, and it's unfair to compare them to blunderbusses since they get so many armament upgrades
I'm comparing them to just the base version, that has no upgrades, and is tier 2 btw.
100% agree with everything
I need Skarbrand in my life, although its pretty hard to not have a good Khorn armie...
Strongly disagree about Irondrakes /Trollhammer torp, Cannons and Flame guns: combine them to delete any SEM and infantry
I also don't use 2 turns recruitment defensive infantry, they don't add enough , except Hammerers (1 unit) to kill resistant units
Resistant units? You mean units with physical resistance, because if that's the case, you do realize that most of those unit types have 0 armor and are really easy to kill with any ranged unit. And ironbreakers are definitely worth being recruited, as they will dish out more damage than hammerers and will hold the line for longer.
@@CultistOfkhorne was talking about things like Vlad, Archaeon...
Maybe that's me but I don't like units with more than 1 turn recruitment unless they're real good (Thunderbarge!)
My guy forgetting cannons now have grape shot that does 4x better than organ-guns
I think you are forgetting that they fixed it, so now its worse than organ guns :P, and its only for Malakai, not every dwarf faction.
@@CultistOfkhorne last time I checked its researchable
Maybe with mods, but in vanilla there is no grape shot in the technology tree, I actually did just check.
So what do you think of doomseekers?
They are kind of not that great, they aren't as bad at killing low tier infantry as regular slayers, but they actually struggle to kill anything that is higher tier or has a bonus vs infantry. If you buff them enough they can work and, unlike the non ranged slayers, they can win against worse odds, but I personally dislike using them.
What the hell? Cannons Are a doomstack, did you forget about grapeshot?
Well they aren't a doomstack, grapeshot has been nerfed so now it's worse than organ guns, and it is only available for Malakai, not every single dwarf.
putting trollhammers in trash is a HOT take. mostly agree with the rest.
Maybe it's more of a personal preference, but thunderers are cheaper, you can get them sooner, they almost have the same range, and are good in every situation. Whereas trollhammers are very slow to fire and even though they get a good amount of kills, they lag behind at dishing out damage. I was thinking of placing them as situational, but I can't think of a situation where I would rather have them over thunderes, or regular irondrakes.
So hard disagree on bolt throwers. I have crap.stacked with them agains many armies and they rock. As not thorek even.
Are they as good as gyros? No but what is?
Was this a dream you had? Bolt throwers are below shit
@@alkemist777 not anymore
Glad you could make use of them. They've never performed for me, even with 8 models they just get outclassed by everything
@alkemist777 They are not like doomstackable. But I would say they are the most versatile artilery the dwarfs have until organ guns are available. Jack of all trades if you will. If you give them the rune that adds explosive damage, they delete infantry. They do good enough without the rune as well because they fire 8 shots, and each one can kill multiple entities. With the rune that give bonus to large and seeking projectiles, they handle single entities very well and do decently against cav. They have the downside of slightly less range as other options, but having double the unit size makes up for the damage decrease.
So, while they are not as good as grudgethrowers against infantry and not as good as cannons against large units. They can be used against almost anything with decent to good results.
@@danielgloyd4529 for reference I have beaten a full stack of brettonians and their settlement with just a lord and 19 bolt throwers. In a field battle with them having midterm cav. So approx 33 units against 20.
I have also beaten 2 full stacks of ogres in a similar fashion though that stack did have some grudge throwers.
They aren't a bad crap stack and in melee they can hold their own as the crew is 80ish entities compared to grudge thrower 40ish.
Also that poor nurgle stack against 5 bolts and 2 grudge throwers..... completely deleted.
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