There have been so many failures of belt in oil system that screw up the engine entirely. The benefit is far far less than the problem it has created. These engine manufacturers have lost their mind.
You are supposed to scrap the car before the belt goes , that is 100,000- 150,000 miles . My wife has just bought one of the eco boost engines at 33,000 , and I will make sure we sell it at 99,000 miles . 😮 ( if we are lucky , it will not fail before that )
There have been reliable belt-in-oil timing systems used in VW TSI engines. However, the best timing is a timing chain with multi-ply chains and low-friction coated metal guides. Timing chains for the most part last as long as you do regular oil changes. The traditional belt-in-air timing systems which have been widely used in SOHC and DOHC engines throughout the 1960s to the early 2000s are designed to last between 60,000 to 90,000 miles and are pretty good too and are easy to replace and a reputable mechanic will check it at 60K miles.
@vumba1331 as you say gears are the ultimate but as mentioned above it's the most expensive and arguably noisiest option, the cost is probably the main issue though in mass production. 👍
@fladave99 that's not how mass production and profit margins work, people are willing to pay more for complex engineering on "prestige" cars, nobody wants to pay more for a Ford because it's still a Ford(or other mass produced brand).
Ford Ranger 2L bi turbo diesel uses a wet belt. After a while bits of rubber come off the belt and block oil ways. Crazy idea they have gone mad! A rubber belt running in hot oil is a recipe for disaster!
Back in the 70’s and 80’s, my husband, being a mechanic at the time says that one of the biggest causes of failure with the then new idea of using rubber belts in place of timing chains on overhead camshaft engines was oil leakage from the camshaft oil seal, the oil causing contamination and premature failure of the belt. A particular problem with the Ford Pinto engines. How on earth 40 plus years later have these so called design engineers decided that it’s a good idea to run a rubber belt through a ‘bath’ of oil? The mind truly boggles.
They are forced to find every percent of fuel economy they can. World leaders and tree huggers want greener cars by law. Plus the average person drives a car 3 to 5 years, then finances a new one
A motor that runs for years is always more efficient then making another motor to replace one that has piston valve party mix. The manufacturers really just want our money faster.
The total brake failure that my son experienced while coming off the slip road at Junction 10 on the M23 motorway was terrifying and he (and his apprentice) were fortunate not to have been involved in a major accident at this busy junction. The cause of the failure is well documented - the use of the wet belt inside the EcoBoost engine causes delamination over time. Debris from it eventually clogs the pick up pipe and vacuum pump which then fails causing the brake pedal to go hard. The brake pedal simply cannot be depressed to slow the vehicle no matter how hard you try. He is self-employed and relies on his Ford Transit Custom van everyday. It is currently at a Hendy Ford garage awaiting a goodwill gesture from Ford - as it is a few months out of warranty - yet the wet belt was not due to be changed for another 30,000 miles at the earliest.The current estimated cost of the repairs are £1,800! In addition, the failure of the wet belt may have caused damage to the turbo and the cost to replace it would be £1,000 according to Hendy. He has had the vehicle regularly serviced - using the specified oil. Ford have a duty to undertake the repairs - and cover any additional damages resulting from the delamination of the wet belt but they are digging their heels in - offering a fraction of the repair cost.
@@megataurus7779 Yes - after many weeks of wrangling ...and the vehicle being off the road in all that time. As I understand it, Ford and the dealer both made contributions which kept the final charge to my son to a minimum.
Typical of Ford,they make a balls up and expect the customer to pay for their incompetence,who in their right mind would run a belt in hot oil,I said right from the start this was a bad idea and it’s been proved right.
It is not a lot of fun changing a timing belt. Add oil in and you are just adding trouble. You don't have to add oil to the belt just make it of better material.
@@phiksit Changing water pumps on most front wheel drive small cars is a whole engine removal and reinstallation. Because there is no room to get bolts or the water-pump out.
As you can never really be sure your shop is replacing your oil with the correct spec, these belts are just a time bomb. They also cost 3 times more to replace than a dry belt, so many cars will never have then replaced with the result that many will destroy their engines prematurely. Don't buy these cars and manufacturers will stop making them.
Hey that is unfair that people won't replace them and it will cause early engine failure. That may not happen. Especially when the belt fails long before it is do to be replaced because it may still deteriorate when not been driven continuously.
My daughter and her husband told me they were buying 2 new Chevy Tracs ,one for each of them, I said that I would not buy one because of the belt in oil timing belt and a tiny motor with a turbo charger to add to the stress it would already be under to move a heavy vehicle and to sum it up is asking for problems down the road in expensive repairs if you plan on keeping them way past the warranty, they both looked at me like What ? Then did not have any interest in asking what I was talking about and just disregarded anything I said with a mind set of a lot of people out there, when it breaks I will get it fixed, and if it is expensive, just put it on my credit card ! All they know is they like the looks of it, the price is cheap and nothing else matters.
2024 Chevrolet Trax 1.2 liter has two one for timing and one for the oil pump. Not only that but the cover over them which covers the entire front of the engine is a one time use affair which only adds to the cost. The 1.3 liter in their Trailblazer has a chain.
After watching a recent video of a woman in charge of a small haulage company that purchases dozens of ford transits and saying that almost all of them had to go back to ford due to a wet belt issue, ive become rather cautious of my transit custom now !!
This sums it up at the end... "And from what we've heard, replacement wet-belt kits are becoming a rather popular category." What an engineering freakin nightmare disaster. This is how to throw the brand reputation under the bus.
Was going to buy my wife a Ecosport until I found out it has a wet belt. The new for 2024 Chevy Trax 1.2 liter has a wet belt two one camshaft and one oil pump. Whereas the 1.3 used in the Trailblazer has a chain. My question is, as oil gets miles on it, it becomes very acidic. I would think that acid would work on deteriating the belt with small pieces getting into oil passages and blocking them, so the engine is toast. This sort of reminds me of when Chrysler thought it was a good idea to have the water pump in the crankcase of the 2.7 liter engine. What a cluster that was. Think this may very well have similar results.
I had a 1996 E34, straight 6 2.5 auto "BMW" , I bought it second hand when it had 120.000 on the clock, I sold it when it had done in excess of 265,000 miles 6 years later , as far as I know it,s still going today with the "original CAM CHAIN !! " lessons to be learned here from good "german engineering!"
The little 1.0l EcoBoom also had the inconvenient habit of bursting coolant hoses. The mass of the engine is so low that the whole engine overheats very quickly and then seizes, before the driver is aware of the problem. Still, the engine is cheaper to make and that boosts (!!) Ford's profits.
What an absolute genius the person is that came up with this idea for modern cars. I hope the company that person is working for has deep pockets, as I don't see why the paying public should foot the bill for all the failures.
We have a number of those idiot engineers out there. Google how to replace the battery on a Dodge Avenger some time. Chrysler used this brilliant move on the Dodge Journey, and Chrysler Sebring, and 200. it is worth a look believe me.
Any quick online search including UA-cam videos will reveal that wet timing belts are unreliable junk. Several European automakers who have been using this technology for a few years have bombarded with complaints from customers of not only premature timing belt failure at the 50-to-60-thousand-mile mark on a belt supposed to last 150 thousand miles but rubber peels from the belt plugging up the oil sump screen causing the engine to have oil pressure loss and shutting down. The oil pan must be removed to clean the sump screen which is costly. Even worse, if a small piece of rubber gets into an oil gallery that part of the engine is oil starved, and you have premature engine ware. To change the wet timing belt, it is labor intensive because many upper engine parts must be removed to access it making it expensive to replace. The 2024 Chevy Trax 1.2 engine uses a wet belt system along with its sister, Buick Envista and owners of these cars are in for a rude awakening. My advice, stay away from any cars that have this very unreliable technology.
Proper intervals 5000 km-6000 km or 3000 miles to 4000 miles for oil/filter will reduce the chance of wet timing belt degradation. Owners who experience issues run these wet timing belts without proper oil changes or incorrect oil. These wet timing belts with proper maintenance should last 125000km-150000km or 80000 miles to 95000 miles before required wet timing belt replacement........
GM’s 1.2 cylinder; wet timing belt disaster, reliability trashing Trax & Envista. A product to dispose of before warranty expire. What does it tell you when GM doesn’t offer any factory extended warranty?
Already a thing. Aluminium blocks with steel sleeves are composite. I think there was a wacky proto type engine that was mainly carbon fiber and used metal sleeves with an alloy head. It was in a concept car I think.
1.0 ecoboost. Failure (without warning) means the car is beyond economic repair $8.000 for new engine on 3 year old 35,000 mile dealer serviced car. Ford say 'get lost, it's YOUR problem' If you decide to change the belts before this happens, it costs $2,200. DO NOT BUY A CAR WITH THIS ENGINE
Honda's cheaper light-use GC motors use lots of plastic parts and OHC (belt-in-oil) and get a 3 month commercial use warranty. Their commercial-use GX motors have OHV (gear driven cam, pushrod) and a 3 YEAR commercial use warranty. So what would you conclude from that?
The other issue I have with the design is many can’t be visually checked easily. So you have an invisible degrading belt losing materials into the oil. The first you know about it is when something catastrophic happens to the engine. The benefits are way less than the cost. Illogical design!
I won't with the degradation of the wet timing belt timing systems would Shell Helix ultra stop or reduce the damage. Given the oil is fully synthetic GTL based oil with no crude oil base to case any reaction.
It is contaminants in the oil from the combustion of the engine that cause belt degradation. In Citroen PureTech engines what have belt in oil system, it causes the belt to fall appart and chunks from the belt clogging the oil paths in the engine leading the catastrofic engine failiure. So, frequent oil changes and using the premium fuel will extend the lifespan of the belt. Also, all modern engines require fully synthetic oil. Even those that require semi-synthetic should use fully synthetic oils. There is no exuse. It is given that the oil is fully synthetic, why would anyone ever use a subpair oil. And you need the oil that satisfies the quality standard for the specific engine, meanin it is designed for the engines that have belt-in-oil system. Also, manufaturers like Continental and Dayco had released an upgraded versions on the wet belt, that are more durable that the OEM ones from the few years ago.
Hello from greece i got a question if you pour bardahl oil treatment to a. Wet belt can you do any harm to it or does it help the friction and i get more kilometeres until i change it
Not only a Peugeot problem, Ford, Honda etc has the same problems. Clients need to change oil more often and even more if they use the car with the engine cold most of the times.
Anybody who buys a car that has a timing belt instead of a timing chain doesn't know what he is in for. Going one step further, anyone that buys one with a belt in oil must be out of his/her mind.
Ford may go under from belt in oil systems. All the Eco Boost engine failures are simply mind blowing. Worst engine design since the Chevy Vega 4 bangers. Soo stupid a design, the engineers and those that approved the design should be fired and not let to even work on a Tri-cycle!
What a stupid, stupid design and the reasoning is flawed. I know of no basic human would chose the risk of engine failure due to a wet belt if sat down and the design was explained to them. Even if they work, at some point the belt will have to be changed and considerable cost due to the labor involved all because of a $30.00 POS belt.
Wet belt changing is a hugely expensive service procedure . Practical considerations have gone out of the window in current automotive engine design , and tend to spoil the fact that considerable advances have been made in performance , economy and emissions .
Idk about all the others but my 2.7 eco boost has a wet oil pump belt and has been flawless . Had an oil pan leak around 140k and had to change the pan and the belt still looked new. I’m at 175k now . I know someone has that has 210k on theirs and havnt had a problem yet. My old f150 had to have the chains replace at 165k so it can’t not that bad.
@@braper2428 Wet belts tend to deteriorate the most with short trips in densely populated areas, these driving conditions pollutes the oil the most and in most cases the oil doesn't get up to operating temperature thus not promoting the ventilation of these pollutants. Most of these cars also don't do a lot of mileage on a yearly base so they stay submerged in oil for a longer period of that compared to cars that are driven a lot. I guess your driving conditions suit the wet belt.
How about inline 4 or 6 cylinders with gear to gear ? Indestructible ! At least the old small block Chevy engines has short timing chains that lasted . They didn't have phasers , plastic guides or travel a long way through a rats maze ! I could not care about noise . It's nice to HEAR it WORKING . Don't argue with simple that keeps WORKING !
Honda did it on their 1.0 turbos fitted to Euro Civics. They also have premature failure issues, lots of reports on the net about belts failing before 40k miles, lunching the turbo and engine.
When I was buying my car I got in mind with avoid a great many things, 1 electronic parking brake, 2 keyless start, 3 any engine with less than 4 cyclinders aka 3 cyclinder engines which are far rougher, 4 any intrusive active safety systems like lane assist or AEB, 5 any car that does not have a spare wheel, 6 big wheels with low profile tyres, 7 any engine that doesn't use a timing chain. I ended up with a 2016 Toyota auris 1.2T with 16 inch alloys this was purchased in 2019. Fed up of cars with stupid stuff that ruins comfort and reliability.
yes if 1 cylinder fail just deactivate it.. pull the injector. over haul at 3rd cylinder fail. you can even hack the sensor.. and ecu. its runing it's good.. 🤤
@@gravemind6536yup, I hate all the overly complex systems in these newer vehicles too. Which is why when I was looking for a small fuel efficient car to commute with, I bought a used 10 year old Nissan Versa with a 5 speed manual transmission. It's has a decent 4 cylinder with a timing chain, key for the ignition, and none of that electronic safety crap. It's like driving a Japanese economy car from the late 90s and gets about 36 mpg too. Only thing I wish it had was power windows, locks and mirrors. It's a cheap car but I appreciate it more and more seeing all these new cars loaded with complex crap.
The engineering department knows this is a dumb idea..but if they want to sell new cars they gotta make them hard to work on and prone to failure...get ye an old car do yourself a favor
Ye we know to avoid them at any cost. What I learned it's the fuel that gets into the oil and destroys the belt over time. You have to change the oil way more often than on dry belts or chains. Like every 5k. It's really sad that people do this. PSA ain't as evil as VW I learned. The belt is visible and has a chain for the oil pump. VW, Ford uses a wet belts for both that you can't even see.
Manufacturers know full well that,for the large majority of the public,once you start talking about wet belts, interference engines, rubber properties and so on,the thousand yard stare is on,these people know full well what they do, how to do it and who they are doing it to. The percentage of people that even understands what a wet belt is , is of no consequence for them.
All you need to do is remove the front clip from the vehicle. Remove the steering rack and the lower front frame then remove the engine and transmission from the vehicle and then remove and resurface the head and rebuild the bottom end of the engine. Its reallly streamlined and the belt only costs $500
It’s been proven that these wet timing-belts fail. Mainly because of the soot, acids, and gasoline contaminants that mix with the oil over time as the engine is used. We figured out that this was a bad idea 5 decades ago. Ford will ford and the VW will be VW I guess.
1% reduced fuel consumption? There's a YT video where that 1% is challenged and seems to work. However, the chap who did the testing calculated that it saved him only €15 / $16 / £13 per year! As for reduced engine noise? Unless you've super soundproofed your car, tyre and wind noise at highway speeds will drown it out! There probably is some truth to the claim about a rubber belt reducing crankshaft harmonics but I've never noticed it too much - if at all, with chain drives. My car, with a Puretech 1.2 155bhp engine and only 22,000 miles on the clock, is currently in the dealership for a warranty caused by a problem with the inlet cam dephaser and, as likely as not, the root of the problem is probably the timing belt beginning to break down and shed pieces.
we all know it's about manufacturers saving a few dollars... But the loss of integrity, reliability, and credibility will cost them FAR more than those few dollars will buy. I hope people smart up and leave those garbage cars on the lot to rot.
Really? Fuel savings of 1%? It’s a shame to even mention this value. And how much they save on the COGM? Maybe a few cents, maybe 50 dollar / unit. Peanuts! And what about reliability, safety and cost of ownership? Ford is being sued because their EcoBoost engine catches fire due to cylinder wall cracks, and the disintegrating oil pump belt causing premature failure of the engine, and degrades braking power and efficiency! PSA engines, wet-belt disintegrate between two early oil changes on their own, engines need full replacement before they can hit 100 K kms (60 K miles). So that’s how “genius” this wet cam-belt system is! It only brings money to the manufacturer, robbing the car owners and sucking their wallets dry! Wet belt systems are a disgrace for the well established car manufacturers!
Warning! The oil degrades a wet belt, and often causes the engine to fail around 100k miles. Search for the video, '"We have 6 vans with failed engines... They don't care" - The Ford Wet Belt Scandal', by Geoff Buys Cars
My sister had the Ford Ecoboom with the 1.0. Well technically she had a 3 litre because it went through 3 engines by the time she got rid of it at 50000km. She'd bought it new from Ford and kept with FSH from Ford. Rubbish.
For 1.2 puretech engines; just use right engine oil coded "B71 2302 or B71 2297" These engine oils are formulated to avoid damaging the timing belt. Other than these engine oils that you think are of high quality will damage the timing belt. Just use B71 2302 or B71 2297 PSA approved engine oils..
People need to change oil before brand recommendation due to oil dilution problems and for cars that do small courses they need to change every year because they use the car with engine cold and the oil dilution with petrol is even worst.
I get using a belt, but why are they putting it in oil? I believe it’s for money and nothing more. Soaking a rubber belt in oil doesn’t make the engine more fuel efficient.
Greater fuel economy means nothing when your engine blows up due to belt breaking or the engine seizing due to oil starvation when the debris from the worn out oil pump belt clogs the oil pickup tube. Congratulations! You now need a new engine.
Life expectancy of up to 150k miles.. yeah.. no. I hear they fail as early as 40k miles or anyway before 85k...... this is a disaster and needs to be addressed.
One of the dumbest ideas ever. WTF were they thinking? Rubber belt that sits in hot oil and spins the oil pump. Even the belts that sit on the outside of engines get ruined quickly when oil gets to them. But to have a belt sit in the oil all of the time...crazy... My Honda push lawn mower had this and sure enough blew the engine.
Hybrid is the way to improve gasoline mileage. Electric car with gasoline assist. Allows no turbos, no GDI without port injection, no sleazy mechanical CVT, no accessory belts. Allows efficiency tuned Atkinson cycle engine for even better fuel economy. Electric car goodness without the electric car drawbacks. Much like a torque converter automatic, but even nicer.
There have been so many failures of belt in oil system that screw up the engine entirely. The benefit is far far less than the problem it has created. These engine manufacturers have lost their mind.
The benefits for the car makers are great, it's called planed obsolescence...
@@AltMarc True. Benefits for car makers, not for car buyers.
You are supposed to scrap the car before the belt goes , that is 100,000- 150,000 miles .
My wife has just bought one of the eco boost engines at 33,000 , and I will make sure we sell it at 99,000 miles . 😮 ( if we are lucky , it will not fail before that )
There have been reliable belt-in-oil timing systems used in VW TSI engines. However, the best timing is a timing chain with multi-ply chains and low-friction coated metal guides. Timing chains for the most part last as long as you do regular oil changes. The traditional belt-in-air timing systems which have been widely used in SOHC and DOHC engines throughout the 1960s to the early 2000s are designed to last between 60,000 to 90,000 miles and are pretty good too and are easy to replace and a reputable mechanic will check it at 60K miles.
Thanks to the government for forci g them to meet emissions and fuel requirements. Throw reliability out of the window...
Chains,proven and tested over a hundred years,let's cut the bullshit.
Every single part of our society is nothing but a scheme. The truth is avoided at all costs.
Yes proven to fail because they are nearly always ignored.
Metal gears off the crankshaft for pushrod ohv are the best, bevel drive for ohc engines. Problem solved.
@vumba1331 as you say gears are the ultimate but as mentioned above it's the most expensive and arguably noisiest option, the cost is probably the main issue though in mass production. 👍
@fladave99 that's not how mass production and profit margins work, people are willing to pay more for complex engineering on "prestige" cars, nobody wants to pay more for a Ford because it's still a Ford(or other mass produced brand).
These belts are letting go at as little as 40,000 miles. Truly disastrous resulting in massive cost or a worthless pile of metal.
Agree if the owner does t fix it
A car or truck or van on hire purchase destroyed and still 38 m payments of 350 plus for what
BELT IN OIL = MADNESS
Ford Ranger 2L bi turbo diesel uses a wet belt. After a while bits of rubber come off the belt and block oil ways. Crazy idea they have gone mad! A rubber belt running in hot oil is a recipe for disaster!
You must understand that FORD recently risk anything to be in business. But too bad risk is risk.
Back in the 70’s and 80’s, my husband, being a mechanic at the time says that one of the biggest causes of failure with the then new idea of using rubber belts in place of timing chains on overhead camshaft engines was oil leakage from the camshaft oil seal, the oil causing contamination and premature failure of the belt. A particular problem with the Ford Pinto engines. How on earth 40 plus years later have these so called design engineers decided that it’s a good idea to run a rubber belt through a ‘bath’ of oil? The mind truly boggles.
At least the Pinto was a non interference engine !
They are forced to find every percent of fuel economy they can. World leaders and tree huggers want greener cars by law. Plus the average person drives a car 3 to 5 years, then finances a new one
@@VWT5Alive Depending on what size engine it was.
Remember the pinto engine!!! At least it was non interfering!!
it's not 1970s rubber
1%efficient is not equal to the work when replacing that belt not to mention the price for that belt.
A motor that runs for years is always more efficient then making another motor to replace one that has piston valve party mix. The manufacturers really just want our money faster.
Labor to change is a killer.
The total brake failure that my son experienced while coming off the slip road at Junction 10 on the M23 motorway was terrifying and he (and his apprentice) were fortunate not to have been involved in a major accident at this busy junction.
The cause of the failure is well documented - the use of the wet belt inside the EcoBoost engine causes delamination over time. Debris from it eventually clogs the pick up pipe and vacuum pump which then fails causing the brake pedal to go hard.
The brake pedal simply cannot be depressed to slow the vehicle no matter how hard you try.
He is self-employed and relies on his Ford Transit Custom van everyday. It is currently at a Hendy Ford garage awaiting a goodwill gesture from Ford - as it is a few months out of warranty - yet the wet belt was not due to be changed for another 30,000 miles at the earliest.The current estimated cost of the repairs are £1,800! In addition, the failure of the wet belt may have caused damage to the turbo and the cost to replace it would be £1,000 according to Hendy. He has had the vehicle regularly serviced - using the specified oil.
Ford have a duty to undertake the repairs - and cover any additional damages resulting from the delamination of the wet belt but they are digging their heels in - offering a fraction of the repair cost.
Has it been resolved yet?
@@megataurus7779 Yes - after many weeks of wrangling ...and the vehicle being off the road in all that time. As I understand it, Ford and the dealer both made contributions which kept the final charge to my son to a minimum.
@paulfildes5489 good to hear,😉👍
@@paulfildes5489Should have been free repair with a good will compensation payment !
Typical of Ford,they make a balls up and expect the customer to pay for their incompetence,who in their right mind would run a belt in hot oil,I said right from the start this was a bad idea and it’s been proved right.
It is not a lot of fun changing a timing belt. Add oil in and you are just adding trouble. You don't have to add oil to the belt just make it of better material.
Sounds as smart as internal water pumps.
@@phiksit Changing water pumps on most front wheel drive small cars is a whole engine removal and reinstallation. Because there is no room to get bolts or the water-pump out.
As you can never really be sure your shop is replacing your oil with the correct spec, these belts are just a time bomb. They also cost 3 times more to replace than a dry belt, so many cars will never have then replaced with the result that many will destroy their engines prematurely. Don't buy these cars and manufacturers will stop making them.
Hey that is unfair that people won't replace them and it will cause early engine failure. That may not happen. Especially when the belt fails long before it is do to be replaced because it may still deteriorate when not been driven continuously.
My daughter and her husband told me they were buying 2 new Chevy Tracs ,one for each of them, I said that I would not buy one because of the belt in oil timing belt and a tiny motor with a turbo charger to add to the stress it would already be under to move a heavy vehicle and to sum it up is asking for problems down the road in expensive repairs if you plan on keeping them way past the warranty, they both looked at me like What ? Then did not have any interest in asking what I was talking about and just disregarded anything I said with a mind set of a lot of people out there, when it breaks I will get it fixed, and if it is expensive, just put it on my credit card ! All they know is they like the looks of it, the price is cheap and nothing else matters.
2024 Chevrolet Trax 1.2 liter has two one for timing and one for the oil pump. Not only that but the cover over them which covers the entire front of the engine is a one time use affair which only adds to the cost. The 1.3 liter in their Trailblazer has a chain.
Another dumb idea up there with pastic chain tensioners and plastic thermostat housing.
So why is Ford seeing wet belt engine failures at 50K?
After watching a recent video of a woman in charge of a small haulage company that purchases dozens of ford transits and saying that almost all of them had to go back to ford due to a wet belt issue, ive become rather cautious of my transit custom now !!
"So what's driving belt in oil technology"
A wish and a prayer?
My bet is history will not be kind to these types of belts!
This sums it up at the end... "And from what we've heard, replacement wet-belt kits are becoming a rather popular category." What an engineering freakin nightmare disaster. This is how to throw the brand reputation under the bus.
Was going to buy my wife a Ecosport until I found out it has a wet belt. The new for 2024 Chevy Trax 1.2 liter has a wet belt two one camshaft and one oil pump. Whereas the 1.3 used in the Trailblazer has a chain. My question is, as oil gets miles on it, it becomes very acidic. I would think that acid would work on deteriating the belt with small pieces getting into oil passages and blocking them, so the engine is toast. This sort of reminds me of when Chrysler thought it was a good idea to have the water pump in the crankcase of the 2.7 liter engine. What a cluster that was. Think this may very well have similar results.
I wonder how difficult it would be to produce kits to convert wet belt engines to chain as God intended.🙂
In my opinion wet belt engines are a complete disaster particularly for a used car buyer.
Yes, because you are the warranty in many cases.
I had a 1996 E34, straight 6 2.5 auto "BMW" , I bought it second hand when it had 120.000 on the clock, I sold it when it had done in excess of 265,000 miles 6 years later , as far as I know it,s still going today with the "original CAM CHAIN !! " lessons to be learned here from good "german engineering!"
Here in Europe we call the Ford Ecoboost the Ford EcoBOOM for good reason. Stay well clear of wet belt design engines !!!
The little 1.0l EcoBoom also had the inconvenient habit of bursting coolant hoses. The mass of the engine is so low that the whole engine overheats very quickly and then seizes, before the driver is aware of the problem.
Still, the engine is cheaper to make and that boosts (!!) Ford's profits.
Are they also interference engines so the engine pretty much destroys itself when the belt breaks?
What an absolute genius the person is that came up with this idea for modern cars. I hope the company that person is working for has deep pockets, as I don't see why the paying public should foot the bill for all the failures.
We have a number of those idiot engineers out there. Google how to replace the battery on a Dodge Avenger some time. Chrysler used this brilliant move on the Dodge Journey, and Chrysler Sebring, and 200. it is worth a look believe me.
What's wrong with pushrods?
every body on about rubber in oil what are your oil seals made from
I wonder if there’s a material they can use that won’t get broken down by the oil as bad or as quickly as
Yes a steel chain.😎
Recycled plastic bottles 😁
Any quick online search including UA-cam videos will reveal that wet timing belts are unreliable junk.
Several European automakers who have been using this technology for a few years have bombarded with complaints from customers of not only premature timing belt failure at the 50-to-60-thousand-mile mark on a belt supposed to last 150 thousand miles but rubber peels from the belt plugging up the oil sump screen causing the engine to have oil pressure loss and shutting down.
The oil pan must be removed to clean the sump screen which is costly.
Even worse, if a small piece of rubber gets into an oil gallery that part of the engine is oil starved, and you have premature engine ware.
To change the wet timing belt, it is labor intensive because many upper engine parts must be removed to access it making it expensive to replace.
The 2024 Chevy Trax 1.2 engine uses a wet belt system along with its sister, Buick Envista and owners of these cars are in for a rude awakening.
My advice, stay away from any cars that have this very unreliable technology.
Proper intervals 5000 km-6000 km or 3000 miles to 4000 miles for oil/filter will reduce the chance of wet timing belt degradation. Owners who experience issues run these wet timing belts without proper oil changes or incorrect oil. These wet timing belts with proper maintenance should last 125000km-150000km or 80000 miles to 95000 miles before required wet timing belt replacement........
GM’s 1.2 cylinder; wet timing belt disaster, reliability trashing Trax & Envista. A product to dispose of before warranty expire. What does it tell you when GM doesn’t offer any factory extended warranty?
What's next composite engine blocks with metal cylinder sleeves🤦🏿♂️
I wouldn't be surprised if Ford or VW does plastic long block engines
Lmao Kia just took notes
Already a thing. Aluminium blocks with steel sleeves are composite.
I think there was a wacky proto type engine that was mainly carbon fiber and used metal sleeves with an alloy head. It was in a concept car I think.
Be careful what you wish for 🙂
1.0 ecoboost.
Failure (without warning) means the car is beyond economic repair $8.000 for new engine on 3 year old 35,000 mile dealer serviced car.
Ford say 'get lost, it's YOUR problem'
If you decide to change the belts before this happens, it costs $2,200.
DO NOT BUY A CAR WITH THIS ENGINE
There’s a TSB for the dealer to give a free long block. Your dealer ripped you off.
Are there aftermarket timing sprockets and timing chains for the 1.0 ecoboost engine?
Ecoboom!! 🤯
What %age of an engine's power is saved by going to a wet belt? I can't see it being that large or a normal belt would melt.
I'll avoid ever getting anything (not just ford) with wet belts unless i can find a way to convert to dry belt!
Does the 3.5 6 ford ecoboost f150 motor have a wet belt?
honda has had small engines with wet belts for 20 some years. my gcv190 has been going strong since '06
Hardly a car
@@volt8684 so are the 3 cyl ford engines !
Come on... just make plastic timing chain. Problem solved 👍😁🤣
Or go back to leather belts.
They might handle oil better as they were used on steam engines.
Whoever thought that this was a good idea was the worst engineer ever .
Honda's cheaper light-use GC motors use lots of plastic parts and OHC (belt-in-oil) and get a 3 month commercial use warranty. Their commercial-use GX motors have OHV (gear driven cam, pushrod) and a 3 YEAR commercial use warranty. So what would you conclude from that?
It isnt just the eco sport, Ford went all in. The v6 eco boosts and the 21 and up 5.0 have them too.
The other issue I have with the design is many can’t be visually checked easily. So you have an invisible degrading belt losing materials into the oil. The first you know about it is when something catastrophic happens to the engine. The benefits are way less than the cost. Illogical design!
They are a nightmare. They clog up the engine as they degrade and the rubber particles block the oil pickup and other parts
I won't with the degradation of the wet timing belt timing systems would Shell Helix ultra stop or reduce the damage. Given the oil is fully synthetic GTL based oil with no crude oil base to case any reaction.
It is contaminants in the oil from the combustion of the engine that cause belt degradation. In Citroen PureTech engines what have belt in oil system, it causes the belt to fall appart and chunks from the belt clogging the oil paths in the engine leading the catastrofic engine failiure. So, frequent oil changes and using the premium fuel will extend the lifespan of the belt.
Also, all modern engines require fully synthetic oil. Even those that require semi-synthetic should use fully synthetic oils. There is no exuse. It is given that the oil is fully synthetic, why would anyone ever use a subpair oil.
And you need the oil that satisfies the quality standard for the specific engine, meanin it is designed for the engines that have belt-in-oil system. Also, manufaturers like Continental and Dayco had released an upgraded versions on the wet belt, that are more durable that the OEM ones from the few years ago.
Puretech = Purecrap or Pureshit as there now known as in the motor trade. Ford Ecoboost = Ecoboom or Aquaboost.
Hello from greece i got a question if you pour bardahl oil treatment to a. Wet belt can you do any harm to it or does it help the friction and i get more kilometeres until i change it
Lots of problems in europe with these belts in oil , oil filters clogged etc ,
So many seen being replaced early I suppose the manufacturers have used unaware owners todo the testing.
Peugeot considère leurs clients comme responsable de leurs incompétences en ingénierie
Not only a Peugeot problem, Ford, Honda etc has the same problems. Clients need to change oil more often and even more if they use the car with the engine cold most of the times.
Yes so true 😢
People barely take care of their cars as it is, and now there's another maintenance item? 💀💀
I guess more companies felt left out that their vehicles couldn't reach the prestige of VW / Audi brand... ie: gargage queens.
Anybody who buys a car that has a timing belt instead of a timing chain doesn't know what he is in for. Going one step further, anyone that buys one with a belt in oil must be out of his/her mind.
You were right timing belts and oil don’t mix. It causes the belt to degrade and teeth fall off.
Ford may go under from belt in oil systems. All the Eco Boost engine failures are simply mind blowing. Worst engine design since the Chevy Vega 4 bangers.
Soo stupid a design, the engineers and those that approved the design should be fired and not let to even work on a Tri-cycle!
Another genius engineer just ask him or her they will tell you how smart they are.
What a stupid, stupid design and the reasoning is flawed. I know of no basic human would chose the risk of engine failure due to a wet belt if sat down and the design was explained to them. Even if they work, at some point the belt will have to be changed and considerable cost due to the labor involved all because of a $30.00 POS belt.
Wet belt changing is a hugely expensive service procedure . Practical considerations have gone out of the window in current automotive engine design , and tend to spoil the fact that considerable advances have been made in performance , economy and emissions .
Hmm 1% better fuel mileage for engine failure at 100k miles. Cause more waste in landfills as most cars wont be worth putting a new engine every 100k
The rubber will lose particles and go glog the oil sump filter. Before I buy a car, I will make sure my timing belt is not touched by any oil
Manufacturers are trying to penny pinch
They could care less about customer satisfaction
Idk about all the others but my 2.7 eco boost has a wet oil pump belt and has been flawless . Had an oil pan leak around 140k and had to change the pan and the belt still looked new. I’m at 175k now . I know someone has that has 210k on theirs and havnt had a problem yet. My old f150 had to have the chains replace at 165k so it can’t not that bad.
Do you happen to use the car on a daily basis and do a lot of long distance trips with little city traffic?
@@beunhaas102 really both but more hwy than town
@@braper2428 Wet belts tend to deteriorate the most with short trips in densely populated areas, these driving conditions pollutes the oil the most and in most cases the oil doesn't get up to operating temperature thus not promoting the ventilation of these pollutants.
Most of these cars also don't do a lot of mileage on a yearly base so they stay submerged in oil for a longer period of that compared to cars that are driven a lot.
I guess your driving conditions suit the wet belt.
How about inline 4 or 6 cylinders with gear to gear ? Indestructible ! At least the old small block Chevy engines has short timing chains that lasted . They didn't have phasers , plastic guides or travel a long way through a rats maze ! I could not care about noise . It's nice to HEAR it WORKING . Don't argue with simple that keeps WORKING !
You don’t see Toyota or Honda doing this nonsense
Honda did it on their 1.0 turbos fitted to Euro Civics. They also have premature failure issues, lots of reports on the net about belts failing before 40k miles, lunching the turbo and engine.
When I was buying my car I got in mind with avoid a great many things, 1 electronic parking brake, 2 keyless start, 3 any engine with less than 4 cyclinders aka 3 cyclinder engines which are far rougher, 4 any intrusive active safety systems like lane assist or AEB, 5 any car that does not have a spare wheel, 6 big wheels with low profile tyres, 7 any engine that doesn't use a timing chain. I ended up with a 2016 Toyota auris 1.2T with 16 inch alloys this was purchased in 2019. Fed up of cars with stupid stuff that ruins comfort and reliability.
I felt the same way... to avoid all those unnecessary complexities, and found the Chevy Spark (5 speed)... plus no turbo.
yes if 1 cylinder fail just deactivate it.. pull the injector. over haul at 3rd cylinder fail. you can even hack the sensor.. and ecu. its runing it's good.. 🤤
@@gravemind6536yup, I hate all the overly complex systems in these newer vehicles too. Which is why when I was looking for a small fuel efficient car to commute with, I bought a used 10 year old Nissan Versa with a 5 speed manual transmission. It's has a decent 4 cylinder with a timing chain, key for the ignition, and none of that electronic safety crap. It's like driving a Japanese economy car from the late 90s and gets about 36 mpg too. Only thing I wish it had was power windows, locks and mirrors. It's a cheap car but I appreciate it more and more seeing all these new cars loaded with complex crap.
The engineering department knows this is a dumb idea..but if they want to sell new cars they gotta make them hard to work on and prone to failure...get ye an old car do yourself a favor
More emmsion control, but she; they fail bigger emissions from replacing engines!
They need to close the faculty that engineers were graduated from.
Ye we know to avoid them at any cost. What I learned it's the fuel that gets into the oil and destroys the belt over time. You have to change the oil way more often than on dry belts or chains. Like every 5k. It's really sad that people do this. PSA ain't as evil as VW I learned. The belt is visible and has a chain for the oil pump. VW, Ford uses a wet belts for both that you can't even see.
Stop this Scam Nonsense.. these will Fail and cost you 10,000 dollar per car or Van.. you are being scammed and this will ruin you
WET BELTS KILL !!
A wet belt as it breaks up block the brake vacume , NO BRAKES
Manufacturers know full well that,for the large majority of the public,once you start talking about wet belts, interference engines, rubber properties and so on,the thousand yard stare is on,these people know full well what they do, how to do it and who they are doing it to. The percentage of people that even understands what a wet belt is , is of no consequence for them.
I'm glad the comments section is populated by those who can see what a bloody stupid idea wet belts are.
New vehicles have become way less reliable and it’s an unfortunate reflection of modern society
1:25 Spelling
The stupidest design in engine technology ever. You buy one of these belt-in-oil engined cars, you're buying a universe of financial pain.
Belts are made from same companies that make our tires we love
Josh, cute, you seem to be suggesting that this, '1%' fuel savings makes up for the 1500 Euros it costs every six years to change the wet belt???
ummm pollution caused by failrue of belt eg ship new engine to MPG pollution if chain driven .... Ummm Think chain driven wins ..
They're here. 3.0l Duramax. Seem to be popular on Euro/..... collaboration engines both gas and diesel. Expensive failures.
All you need to do is remove the front clip from the vehicle. Remove the steering rack and the lower front frame then remove the engine and transmission from the vehicle and then remove and resurface the head and rebuild the bottom end of the engine. Its reallly streamlined and the belt only costs $500
Sounds great shame it dont work , thats why the after market is popular because they dont last.
It’s been proven that these wet timing-belts fail. Mainly because of the soot, acids, and gasoline contaminants that mix with the oil over time as the engine is used. We figured out that this was a bad idea 5 decades ago. Ford will ford and the VW will be VW I guess.
Why does ford have this?
The worst for blocking oil pick up pipe .the 1.0 ford eco boom .
They are shite and break easily , This propaganda video is misleading!
1% reduced fuel consumption? There's a YT video where that 1% is challenged and seems to work. However, the chap who did the testing calculated that it saved him only €15 / $16 / £13 per year! As for reduced engine noise? Unless you've super soundproofed your car, tyre and wind noise at highway speeds will drown it out! There probably is some truth to the claim about a rubber belt reducing crankshaft harmonics but I've never noticed it too much - if at all, with chain drives.
My car, with a Puretech 1.2 155bhp engine and only 22,000 miles on the clock, is currently in the dealership for a warranty caused by a problem with the inlet cam dephaser and, as likely as not, the root of the problem is probably the timing belt beginning to break down and shed pieces.
All i heard was
Your engine will have a catastrophic failure before 60 000 miles.
we all know it's about manufacturers saving a few dollars... But the loss of integrity, reliability, and credibility will cost them FAR more than those few dollars will buy. I hope people smart up and leave those garbage cars on the lot to rot.
Yeh tell that to all the wet belt blown up engines lol And not to mention you have to change the belt regularly which costd thousands
Really? Fuel savings of 1%? It’s a shame to even mention this value.
And how much they save on the COGM? Maybe a few cents, maybe 50 dollar / unit. Peanuts!
And what about reliability, safety and cost of ownership?
Ford is being sued because their EcoBoost engine catches fire due to cylinder wall cracks, and the disintegrating oil pump belt causing premature failure of the engine, and degrades braking power and efficiency!
PSA engines, wet-belt disintegrate between two early oil changes on their own, engines need full replacement before they can hit 100 K kms (60 K miles). So that’s how “genius” this wet cam-belt system is! It only brings money to the manufacturer, robbing the car owners and sucking their wallets dry!
Wet belt systems are a disgrace for the well established car manufacturers!
Proven to be bad idea .
Warning! The oil degrades a wet belt, and often causes the engine to fail around 100k miles. Search for the video, '"We have 6 vans with failed engines... They don't care" - The Ford Wet Belt Scandal', by Geoff Buys Cars
My sister had the Ford Ecoboom with the 1.0. Well technically she had a 3 litre because it went through 3 engines by the time she got rid of it at 50000km. She'd bought it new from Ford and kept with FSH from Ford. Rubbish.
Transit vans are failing at 70k miles because of wet belt systems
For 1.2 puretech engines; just use right engine oil coded "B71 2302 or B71 2297" These engine oils are formulated to avoid damaging the timing belt. Other than these engine oils that you think are of high quality will damage the timing belt. Just use B71 2302 or B71 2297 PSA approved engine oils..
Not true, customers who have been using the recommended oil are still having high wet timing belt failure rates.
People need to change oil before brand recommendation due to oil dilution problems and for cars that do small courses they need to change every year because they use the car with engine cold and the oil dilution with petrol is even worst.
But, there will be a massive increase in new engine sales!
My wet belt went at 40k... terrible design!!
I will never buy a car with a wet timing belt. Don’t mind buying with a dry timing belt, but I do love timing chain ⛓️💥, they last forever.
I get using a belt, but why are they putting it in oil? I believe it’s for money and nothing more. Soaking a rubber belt in oil doesn’t make the engine more fuel efficient.
Greater fuel economy means nothing when your engine blows up due to belt breaking or the engine seizing due to oil starvation when the debris from the worn out oil pump belt clogs the oil pickup tube. Congratulations! You now need a new engine.
Chain will get sloppy, a belt will break.
Its all about selling card once the engine blows thats it car is scrap.
Sardines in oil was the better idea!
Mustard
Yes as long as it's olive oil and not that horrible for your health genetically modified soy bean oil.
Life expectancy of up to 150k miles.. yeah.. no. I hear they fail as early as 40k miles or anyway before 85k...... this is a disaster and needs to be addressed.
Sick of this emissions mania.
One of the dumbest ideas ever. WTF were they thinking? Rubber belt that sits in hot oil and spins the oil pump. Even the belts that sit on the outside of engines get ruined quickly when oil gets to them. But to have a belt sit in the oil all of the time...crazy...
My Honda push lawn mower had this and sure enough blew the engine.
Hybrid is the way to improve gasoline mileage.
Electric car with gasoline assist.
Allows no turbos, no GDI without port injection, no sleazy mechanical CVT, no accessory belts.
Allows efficiency tuned Atkinson cycle engine for even better fuel economy.
Electric car goodness without the electric car drawbacks.
Much like a torque converter automatic, but even nicer.