This content is amazing. You’re spot on. Exploring interpretations through fan fiction and adaptation is how we continue to engage with Tolkien’s stories and breath new life into them - even if it’s not nearly as good as the source material. Tolkien left a lot of unanswered questions and unfinished stories in his works and I’m very happy to see RoP being unafraid to expand on those, even if I’m not sold on their answers and/or execution.
Thanks so much for the support! Ultimately my goal is to show that most of the problems with this show is with the writing and not the deviation from the source material. It is important for studios to not be afraid to deviate when necessary whilst learning from amazons mistakes.
Sure, let's usher in an all new era of sub-par writing and a complete lack of imagination. Tolkien did all the work and they have no problem butchering it.
Yeah the writing is definetly sub-par in alot of aspects, though I feel it has more to do with the writers themselves as opposed to them straying from the source material.
@@WilliamRoyallYT Stray from the source material? They threw that in the garbage and pull out some other refuse to replace it with. The only "source material" that is in here are the names. This is total trash and I stopped after E 2. Not worth the time.
actually look into how the hobbit was produced before using it as ammo to make ROP ok.. he was dragged into it replacing guilermo del toro with the project half done and had to reshoot everything.. people hate the hobbit for the same reason they hate RoP, with one difference, they understand he did the best he could with the hobbit.. RoP goes out of his way to shit on every meaningful idea in it
The issues with the hobbit is absolutely not Peter Jacksons fault. I know the reshoots and productions aspects were a nightmare, I simply just used it as a showcase that something can not be entirely faithful and still be an enjoyable piece of media. I really hope the rings of Power turns things around quickly and can show people that it's ok to mold the cannon a little bit.
I currently like ROP more than the Hobbit trilogy. Anything outside of LOTR and The Hobbit is pretty impossible to adapt directly because everything happens on such long time scales.
That's true and is why they realistically shouldn't have tried to make this show due to these issues, and defiantly without the proper second age rights.
Great point. It's definitely an idea that needs to get out there. Well executed fan fiction can be fun or interesting and definitely worth the time and money to experience.
Finally a balanced and fresh take on this whole debate. Thank you for reminding everyone that the Jackson movies, while amazing, also took alot of liberties with the source material. Aragorn is a very different character, the Grey Company does not appear, neither does Glorfindel or Tom Bombadil, some crucial chapters like the Scouring of the Shire or the Barrow Downs did not get adapted. In fact its funny reading forum posts from the early 2000's and seeing how some hardcore Tolkien fans raged at some of Jackson's changes (Arwen being given a bigger role made some fans accuse the movie of being "feminazi propaganda", sounds familiar?). Despite all those changes the movies still managed to be excellent, and that's because the writing was good enough to justify the majority of those changes and omissions (however some changes imo still went too far, like the Elves at Helms Deep). That's the problem with Rings of Power, the writing so far hasn't proven to be good enough to justify the way they've adapted the story, and that's something the showrunners really need to sort out if they care about audience retention.
Some of the best movies of all time, like the Shining, Stalker or Blade Runner, are rather liberal adaptations of their source materials, and that's perfectly okay. Their strength as adaptations is in their writing, not in their faithfulness.
Totally, though I do wish Arwen didn't replace Glorfindel as he's such a cool characters in the legendarium. I fear that studios in the future will be afraid to stray from source material because of how bad this series is being received. Let's hope the writers are able to justify the liberties being taken.
I completely agree with you and have always tried to explain it to other people with moderate success. Sadly I think a few will actually get what you mean. I also want to mention that it goes the same way for every other type of adaptation be it comic books, video games and so on. Changing established canon can be a good thing great even but only if it’s done with thought and care.
Totally, that’s why something like game of thrones did well for the first 6 seasons. They changed the cannon but kept the characters and core themes intact.
I don't normally differ so much from popular and critical receptions of movies like these, and I do appreciate fans' expectations and hopes of some fidelity to the books, but it had been long enough since I read the books as a child that I have been able to enjoy the movies for what they are without being drawn into any concern over how they differ from the source material, and it's been nice to be free of that, to be honest. Not that my opinion of the adaptations matters at all, but while I found the jackson movies to be solid adventure stories and contained many moments that did evoke the wonder that I recall the books containing, I found them ultimately somewhat less than "brilliant". Certainly not the "masterworks" that you see them as, but more of a high-production trilogy that had the funds and the backing to be sure to hire the best talents one might expect for such a massive task, and they largely succeeded, but the surprise would've been if they hadn't. Still, the behemoth of the production could be counted on to deliver very decent movies for a popular audience while also preventing the potential for any really surprising brilliance to show through all the rich finery. I suppose that with all the scrutiny and all the money being risked, this is the best that could be hoped for. On the other hand, I'm having a great time with the Rings of Power series. I'm sure that coming to the series with such low expectations helped me to enjoy the show to some degree, but I'm also getting the sense that the runners are just having a much better time, allowing them to have some perspective in the conception of the show, and giving them the chance to really delve into the themes and philosophical preoccupations that the world of JRR Tolkien was primarily engaged in exploring. Again, this has likely much to do with not knowing what was expected of the show, and making assumptions (that were ultimately accurate) that fans of the books would rip it to shreds. I didn't even start the show for a few weeks into its run because the trailers made it look even more geared toward children's entertainment, with silly lines coming from caricatured charters. This didn't look like the kind of endeavor that would be even meant for someone like myself. That's just a personal hangup of mine based on the typical quality of movies aimed at children. I just can't abide the saccharine and would be happy to throw the whole series out of my consideration, but one bored night I decided to watch the first episode and am so happily surprised to have found the manner of telling the narrative to be just right, and the writing and acting to contain layers of profound subtlety that the jackson movies couldn't be bothered with. I thought for sure that the lack of comparable moneys would make the cinematography and special effects certain to fail in comparison with the movies, which I though would be normal and not necessarily the kind of thing that one should hold against a movie's quality. Again surprisingly, the visuals are as grand and vivid as those in the movie, and don't take away from the larger arcs of the stories as I assumed they would be certain to do. I bet that if those who are decrying the shows fidelity to the books would just forget the books for now and try to let themselves enjoy the show, they'd avoid missing out on what this adaptation does offer and how they can try to see that this is about as good as one could expect or even hope for, given the background of the production and the failure to obtain those critical rights. I didn't even know that part, and would've expected any such effortt undertaken under these circumstances to make for a basically dreadful show and a critical disaster. It's something of a miracle that anyone even decided to move ahead to make the show at all. It's easy to forget that these sorts of prestige series are a phenomenon of very recent years, and that the rapid shift toward popular acceptance of this kind of epic presentation bodes really well for the future prospects for those who hope to have real, literal adaptations of books that could never have been properly represented in the limited forms that existed in the past.
I've always thought that adaptations should be free to stray from the source material in any way they wish, that's what makes them adaptations. If the director thinks that will make for a more interesting story, then the audience response will determine if they were right. However, straying too far doesn't frequently make for a more interesting piece of art, and that has been made patently clear by how horrendously bad Rings of Power is.
in reference to the hobbits/harfoots, Tolkien dose state in the fellowship of the rings, concerning of the hobbits that hobbits in some form have existed since the elder days
In the end, Christopher Tolkien can only speak for himself. He can hate on the Peter Jackson films all he likes, but they have done more breathe new life into JRR Tolkien's work than any caretaking done by his son.
I completely agree with you, though I do not blame Christopher for defending his fathers work. It's thanks to him that we don't have far worse than rings of power.
That said. I'm still making my kids read the books before they watch anything else. Its important to maintain the show as non canon. Amazon would make it canon if they could, and they'll tell people its canon even if they can't decide that.
I absolutely agree with you, the stories Tolkien provided us are far better than anything a movie studio could ever produce. It's important that while studios may deviate the source material always stands above it!
You make such a good point about the lord of the rings not following true canon and the hobbit. It’s funny how people look at this with so much anger. I’m keen to see the 5 seasons and hope they keep making it
It totally has some super cringe moments but over all there’s a few good characters and story. I’ll gladly watch it because it’s available other than that it’s soooooo bad lol but bearable 😅
Yeah there's a lot of bad moments especially when the Harfoots are involved. Though I can typically deal with those bad moments knowing the Elrond story is coming!
Good to see non-rage bait critiques of the show. I’m not a fan of some of the choices the show runners have made so far, but the rage bait can be more cringe than the show.
Thanks! I think it's important to have a discussion on the causes for this shows shortcomings and point out that it is far more than just it straying from the lore.
I mean already you're criticising 2 durins being alive together and the Stranger being Gandalf when they arent confirmed by the show and are your own theories
Well the two during being alive isn't a theory its confirmed to be true, it seems they are removing the religious aspects of Durin and simply making it a family name. I really hope the stranger isn't Gandalf, though I fear the writers would be too afraid to make him a blue wizard or something cool. I hope they prove me wrong though!
While I agree that lore changes and creative liberties are necessary for show adaptations, the lazy writing, lack of love, and overarching themes in Tolkien’s work are not present. Mix that in with the fact that it’s Amazon and Hollywood(who has destroyed many other franchises) and it just comes off as a greedy cash grab
It's just overwhelmingly bad. Straying from lore would be acceptable if the quality of writing and production wasn't even as good as a CW show. They repurposed a LOT of the PJ trilogy. How does one make a season worse than the Hobbit movies?
That's true and honestly the most effective way to show that you dislike the show. However I think it's important that we point out what is wrong an what isn't so amazon and future studios understand what went wrong and not just be scared to adapt Tolkien.
but it doesnt change the fact its objectively bad.. the writing is worse than poor, theres 0 logical consistency and shit just happens without a reason... people dont purely hate it because it changes the lore.. they hate it because its so bad AND they chose to make something that bad based on a borderline perfect story. not to mention theyve changed the themes.. you know the thing that makes it relatable and gives it meaning... why do we have to be ok with desecration of the highest order? its not just changing it.. its shitting on it to further a political agenda... it was so bad they had to get ahead of the curve and call anyone with criticism racists and bigots... so much so the meaning and weight of such an insult is all but gone. its disgusting.. like seriously if you enjoy watching it all the power to you but do not tell me its an objectively good production.. like what about it did you like? the shockingly bad fight scenes? the hobbits that are hypocritical savages? or maybe the elven made watchtower that was cobbled together and held in place with a single small rope.. come on man you must be a troglodyte.. and you sit there and say because things have been adapted in the past makes this level atrocity ok.. stfu
The purpose of this video was not to defend the quality of this show but rather the notion of straying from the source material. There is definitely plenty of things wrong with ROP though that is more the fault of the writers then the straying from the source material, as it's already been proven by PJ that you can do so and still tell a great story.
![The Lord of the Rings Full Audiobook [#1 - The Fellowship of the Rings] by J. R. R. Tolkien [1/3]](/img/n.gif)
This content is amazing. You’re spot on. Exploring interpretations through fan fiction and adaptation is how we continue to engage with Tolkien’s stories and breath new life into them - even if it’s not nearly as good as the source material.
Tolkien left a lot of unanswered questions and unfinished stories in his works and I’m very happy to see RoP being unafraid to expand on those, even if I’m not sold on their answers and/or execution.
Thanks so much for the support! Ultimately my goal is to show that most of the problems with this show is with the writing and not the deviation from the source material. It is important for studios to not be afraid to deviate when necessary whilst learning from amazons mistakes.
Sure, let's usher in an all new era of sub-par writing and a complete lack of imagination. Tolkien did all the work and they have no problem butchering it.
Yeah the writing is definetly sub-par in alot of aspects, though I feel it has more to do with the writers themselves as opposed to them straying from the source material.
@@WilliamRoyallYT Stray from the source material? They threw that in the garbage and pull out some other refuse to replace it with. The only "source material" that is in here are the names. This is total trash and I stopped after E 2. Not worth the time.
actually look into how the hobbit was produced before using it as ammo to make ROP ok.. he was dragged into it replacing guilermo del toro with the project half done and had to reshoot everything.. people hate the hobbit for the same reason they hate RoP, with one difference, they understand he did the best he could with the hobbit.. RoP goes out of his way to shit on every meaningful idea in it
The issues with the hobbit is absolutely not Peter Jacksons fault. I know the reshoots and productions aspects were a nightmare, I simply just used it as a showcase that something can not be entirely faithful and still be an enjoyable piece of media. I really hope the rings of Power turns things around quickly and can show people that it's ok to mold the cannon a little bit.
I currently like ROP more than the Hobbit trilogy. Anything outside of LOTR and The Hobbit is pretty impossible to adapt directly because everything happens on such long time scales.
That's true and is why they realistically shouldn't have tried to make this show due to these issues, and defiantly without the proper second age rights.
Great point. It's definitely an idea that needs to get out there. Well executed fan fiction can be fun or interesting and definitely worth the time and money to experience.
Finally a balanced and fresh take on this whole debate. Thank you for reminding everyone that the Jackson movies, while amazing, also took alot of liberties with the source material. Aragorn is a very different character, the Grey Company does not appear, neither does Glorfindel or Tom Bombadil, some crucial chapters like the Scouring of the Shire or the Barrow Downs did not get adapted. In fact its funny reading forum posts from the early 2000's and seeing how some hardcore Tolkien fans raged at some of Jackson's changes (Arwen being given a bigger role made some fans accuse the movie of being "feminazi propaganda", sounds familiar?). Despite all those changes the movies still managed to be excellent, and that's because the writing was good enough to justify the majority of those changes and omissions (however some changes imo still went too far, like the Elves at Helms Deep). That's the problem with Rings of Power, the writing so far hasn't proven to be good enough to justify the way they've adapted the story, and that's something the showrunners really need to sort out if they care about audience retention.
Some of the best movies of all time, like the Shining, Stalker or Blade Runner, are rather liberal adaptations of their source materials, and that's perfectly okay. Their strength as adaptations is in their writing, not in their faithfulness.
Totally, though I do wish Arwen didn't replace Glorfindel as he's such a cool characters in the legendarium. I fear that studios in the future will be afraid to stray from source material because of how bad this series is being received. Let's hope the writers are able to justify the liberties being taken.
I completely agree with you and have always tried to explain it to other people with moderate success. Sadly I think a few will actually get what you mean. I also want to mention that it goes the same way for every other type of adaptation be it comic books, video games and so on. Changing established canon can be a good thing great even but only if it’s done with thought and care.
Totally, that’s why something like game of thrones did well for the first 6 seasons. They changed the cannon but kept the characters and core themes intact.
Add a little pause between when your sentence ends and transition. Now it looks very abrupt. Good work 👍
Thanks for the advice and support!
I don't normally differ so much from popular and critical receptions of movies like these, and I do appreciate fans' expectations and hopes of some fidelity to the books, but it had been long enough since I read the books as a child that I have been able to enjoy the movies for what they are without being drawn into any concern over how they differ from the source material, and it's been nice to be free of that, to be honest. Not that my opinion of the adaptations matters at all, but while I found the jackson movies to be solid adventure stories and contained many moments that did evoke the wonder that I recall the books containing, I found them ultimately somewhat less than "brilliant". Certainly not the "masterworks" that you see them as, but more of a high-production trilogy that had the funds and the backing to be sure to hire the best talents one might expect for such a massive task, and they largely succeeded, but the surprise would've been if they hadn't. Still, the behemoth of the production could be counted on to deliver very decent movies for a popular audience while also preventing the potential for any really surprising brilliance to show through all the rich finery. I suppose that with all the scrutiny and all the money being risked, this is the best that could be hoped for.
On the other hand, I'm having a great time with the Rings of Power series. I'm sure that coming to the series with such low expectations helped me to enjoy the show to some degree, but I'm also getting the sense that the runners are just having a much better time, allowing them to have some perspective in the conception of the show, and giving them the chance to really delve into the themes and philosophical preoccupations that the world of JRR Tolkien was primarily engaged in exploring. Again, this has likely much to do with not knowing what was expected of the show, and making assumptions (that were ultimately accurate) that fans of the books would rip it to shreds. I didn't even start the show for a few weeks into its run because the trailers made it look even more geared toward children's entertainment, with silly lines coming from caricatured charters. This didn't look like the kind of endeavor that would be even meant for someone like myself. That's just a personal hangup of mine based on the typical quality of movies aimed at children. I just can't abide the saccharine and would be happy to throw the whole series out of my consideration, but one bored night I decided to watch the first episode and am so happily surprised to have found the manner of telling the narrative to be just right, and the writing and acting to contain layers of profound subtlety that the jackson movies couldn't be bothered with. I thought for sure that the lack of comparable moneys would make the cinematography and special effects certain to fail in comparison with the movies, which I though would be normal and not necessarily the kind of thing that one should hold against a movie's quality. Again surprisingly, the visuals are as grand and vivid as those in the movie, and don't take away from the larger arcs of the stories as I assumed they would be certain to do. I bet that if those who are decrying the shows fidelity to the books would just forget the books for now and try to let themselves enjoy the show, they'd avoid missing out on what this adaptation does offer and how they can try to see that this is about as good as one could expect or even hope for, given the background of the production and the failure to obtain those critical rights. I didn't even know that part, and would've expected any such effortt undertaken under these circumstances to make for a basically dreadful show and a critical disaster. It's something of a miracle that anyone even decided to move ahead to make the show at all. It's easy to forget that these sorts of prestige series are a phenomenon of very recent years, and that the rapid shift toward popular acceptance of this kind of epic presentation bodes really well for the future prospects for those who hope to have real, literal adaptations of books that could never have been properly represented in the limited forms that existed in the past.
I've always thought that adaptations should be free to stray from the source material in any way they wish, that's what makes them adaptations. If the director thinks that will make for a more interesting story, then the audience response will determine if they were right.
However, straying too far doesn't frequently make for a more interesting piece of art, and that has been made patently clear by how horrendously bad Rings of Power is.
Yeah I agree, This is more of a discussion about being comfortable with straying away moving forward.
in reference to the hobbits/harfoots, Tolkien dose state in the fellowship of the rings, concerning of the hobbits that hobbits in some form have existed since the elder days
In the end, Christopher Tolkien can only speak for himself. He can hate on the Peter Jackson films all he likes, but they have done more breathe new life into JRR Tolkien's work than any caretaking done by his son.
I completely agree with you, though I do not blame Christopher for defending his fathers work. It's thanks to him that we don't have far worse than rings of power.
That said. I'm still making my kids read the books before they watch anything else. Its important to maintain the show as non canon. Amazon would make it canon if they could, and they'll tell people its canon even if they can't decide that.
Reading it first is so important! Good on you
I absolutely agree with you, the stories Tolkien provided us are far better than anything a movie studio could ever produce. It's important that while studios may deviate the source material always stands above it!
You make such a good point about the lord of the rings not following true canon and the hobbit. It’s funny how people look at this with so much anger. I’m keen to see the 5 seasons and hope they keep making it
Yeah, I really hope the writers are able to turn this around and allow some of this Tolkienien themes to shine through!
It totally has some super cringe moments but over all there’s a few good characters and story. I’ll gladly watch it because it’s available other than that it’s soooooo bad lol but bearable 😅
Yeah there's a lot of bad moments especially when the Harfoots are involved. Though I can typically deal with those bad moments knowing the Elrond story is coming!
@@WilliamRoyallYT agreed lots to look forward to and the reviews good work dude 👍
It's still a very poorly written fan fiction.
So far that seems to be the case, My defending of the changes to cannon does not mean the writing is good.
Good to see non-rage bait critiques of the show. I’m not a fan of some of the choices the show runners have made so far, but the rage bait can be more cringe than the show.
Thanks! I think it's important to have a discussion on the causes for this shows shortcomings and point out that it is far more than just it straying from the lore.
I would say there are story lines I don't enjoy and others I am intrigued. Last episode was fun to watch!
I mean already you're criticising 2 durins being alive together and the Stranger being Gandalf when they arent confirmed by the show and are your own theories
Well the two during being alive isn't a theory its confirmed to be true, it seems they are removing the religious aspects of Durin and simply making it a family name. I really hope the stranger isn't Gandalf, though I fear the writers would be too afraid to make him a blue wizard or something cool. I hope they prove me wrong though!
Lol you dumb? Ofc there are two durins alive which doesnt make any sense. Durin the IV and Durin the V.
@@WilliamRoyallYT yeah cause amazon is gonna read your comments on a UA-cam video with 2.5k views
The writers of this show were never fans of Tolkien to begin with...
While I agree that lore changes and creative liberties are necessary for show adaptations, the lazy writing, lack of love, and overarching themes in Tolkien’s work are not present. Mix that in with the fact that it’s Amazon and Hollywood(who has destroyed many other franchises) and it just comes off as a greedy cash grab
Absolutely, the issues with this show are far deeper than its faithfulness to the original work.
It's just overwhelmingly bad. Straying from lore would be acceptable if the quality of writing and production wasn't even as good as a CW show. They repurposed a LOT of the PJ trilogy. How does one make a season worse than the Hobbit movies?
If you don't like it don't watch it it's literally the most simple concept ever
That's true and honestly the most effective way to show that you dislike the show. However I think it's important that we point out what is wrong an what isn't so amazon and future studios understand what went wrong and not just be scared to adapt Tolkien.
Can't wait to hear about the series being cancelled
With how the series is going so far I would be surprised if it lasts more than 3 seasons
but it doesnt change the fact its objectively bad.. the writing is worse than poor, theres 0 logical consistency and shit just happens without a reason... people dont purely hate it because it changes the lore.. they hate it because its so bad AND they chose to make something that bad based on a borderline perfect story. not to mention theyve changed the themes.. you know the thing that makes it relatable and gives it meaning... why do we have to be ok with desecration of the highest order? its not just changing it.. its shitting on it to further a political agenda... it was so bad they had to get ahead of the curve and call anyone with criticism racists and bigots... so much so the meaning and weight of such an insult is all but gone. its disgusting.. like seriously if you enjoy watching it all the power to you but do not tell me its an objectively good production.. like what about it did you like? the shockingly bad fight scenes? the hobbits that are hypocritical savages? or maybe the elven made watchtower that was cobbled together and held in place with a single small rope.. come on man you must be a troglodyte.. and you sit there and say because things have been adapted in the past makes this level atrocity ok.. stfu
The purpose of this video was not to defend the quality of this show but rather the notion of straying from the source material. There is definitely plenty of things wrong with ROP though that is more the fault of the writers then the straying from the source material, as it's already been proven by PJ that you can do so and still tell a great story.
Hate for hates sake… in the end it’s a good entertaining show. Look up adaptation in the dictionary….
name checks out
i really like the show lmao
good for you man, I wish I could completely disconnect my eyes from my brain so I could enjoy dogshit too
That's great that your able to enjoy this show, I have pretty mixed feelings about it but I don't want to take away anyones enjoyment.
@@Coooooops why do you hate it?
No it's not okay to add blacks and women to discredit and destroy Tolkien's white legacy. (Jewish writers made this show btw)