The Randon model gives me an uncomfortable feeling, I was never interested in watching his streams because his model makes me uncomfortable to see with my eyes, that's why almost no one wants to do collabs with him because he's very different than most vtubers, he should commission a new model that instead of an orc, the design is like a charming prince, and by the way, his name Randon sounds like Random, and is a generic name like most indie vtubers.
@@OrcClips-6 I scrolled back up to see what the fuck they were talking about and started uncontrollably laughing at how someone could be uncomfortable at the sight of randon's model LMAO
His situation might not have been as bad as certain Rainbow victims 🌈 ..... But I do think this video decently demonstrates how this doesn't invalidate the problems that he dealt with in that other corporation 😢
@@chimeragenesis361 That's the crux of it. Rainbow corpo made the blue dorito stan say "But what about niji doing worse" and while they're technically correct, it's still whataboutism. Corpo worship is incredibly unhealthy. Always remember: talent first
Hope so, the situation is reminiscent of Aug 2023, and 🌈 Jan 2024. I understand that managers need to, well, manage. But as Randon said, you're hiring these people to be entertainers, then trying to milk them for profit by doing dull/stale content.
I do feel sorry for management for this very reason actually, because they're often the classic example of "You only hear about them when something goes wrong". They work very hard, and yeah, most of the time they're making much less than the talent and get no reward for success, only punishment for failure. They're encouraged to be overly cautious and restrictive. It's a somewhat busted dynamic in a few ways to be honest.
Much like IT people, if the job is going well, you never see/hear them, but if something goes wrong, they not only get a large part of the blame, but are expected to fix it while observers call them lazy and incompetent.
@@corrinflakes9659Still survivorship bias, since the "good" managers have a higher chance to "die" compared to the "safe" managers the number of "safe" managers are disproportionally represented and could be misunderstood as better (because more years of experience without "dying").
Yeah, I don't like how hostile Randon sounded here, because he should have more empathy considering how thankless being a manager can be: it's like being lower on the totem pole but you have more work and are more replaceable, with even less compensation. This is a potentially oppressive combination, and it takes a special kind of person to be willing to subject yourself to that kind of experience. You have to really love your job and/or the people in the company. To some degree I understand Randon's bitterness considering his personal experience, but his flippant disregard of management might have been why he was hard to manage, and I say this knowing full well that the management was clearly inadequate at the time. This is good reminder of why it is so important to find the right kind of people to be managers and also these companies should compensate the workers well and give them time off when they need it. Randon's level of animosity happens when you allow a toxic culture to develop because talents and management do not get the respect or investment they deserve.
I do think it's a pretty fair assessment. Having creativity under wraps can be stifling, but risk management is always something to consider as well. It's a give and take that requires a lot of compromising that only few can really handle.
I dont agree with him Especially on the stance that "the management should let the talents do whatever they wanted, then came in later to fix the problem that will happened." Management were supposed to, you know, managing? They weren't supposed to sit still and let the talents dealing with everything by themself then only appeared at the end trying to do the damage control. That's not a good management, Just an incompetent one.
The Balance is tbh based on what Corpo it is. Niji is a peak case of being not only toxic, but also iron fisted with having the talents only do stuff that has proven track of working and bring lots of money quick, while anything that remotely demands above the bare minimum in Corpo investment is rejected with very little in exceptions to that. While Cover does make the Talents play safe for the most part, they do let them first experiment to define their image for the fanbase they will build, and permit experimentation as possible, so long the core tenets of the Idol Seiso image is kept within the tolerance levels. Letting the Talent experiment too much and be a reactive Management is bad, but being Micromanagerial or just Unwilling to allow breaking the mold out of unwillingness to take risks is also bad. The balance is indeed in where the company is willing to go, and how much the talent is willing to concede to get the project approved.
@@andrehashimoto8056I am going to be frank with you. Lots of your crap is pure fiction. And in the first place. At around the time cover went public and came out with the new gens like advent. You might have noticed that the talents have been enjoying way more freedom than before. Notice how there are more cross gender collabs with no issues, the girls are now swearing more openly and they are doing waaaaaaaaay more collabs out of the company than before. Lessons were learned during Tempus HQ. And the tight reins they use to do definitely reflected badly on the company. And it hurt them in the wallet as it stifled growth.
Yeah, I can see where Randon is coming from as the artist. I still think that if management being passive and only should be cleaning up after talents can have an issue of it's own. I like to think that risk management is an important aspect of any industry especially vtubing since the audience is big and anti is ready to ponce at a scent of "weakness". I do hope though that company can balance risk management and creative freedom to let their talents grow in a healthy and non-toxic enviorment.
Btw this is a scrapped clip from april 2024. This channel will just be for random clips of all varieties incuding ones not turned into shorts and maybe reuse some videos already made into shorts. - A
Yeah that is important context showing it in not in response to the blue hair guy thing but was an accurate analysis of larger institutional realities.
Some people just aren't cut out for the corporate environment. It's not that a talent's "bad" or that management is "bad", it's just that they don't mesh well. I myself, being such a creative and expressive person, probably wouldn't thrive well within the restrictions of a corporate management.
Hoshimachi Suisei, a corpo Vtuber from Hololive, recently had a really good introspective on something similar. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but essentially her advice was to not be passive in your relationship with management and to not expect them to be perfect. To add my own interpretation on top of this, it's extremely important to remember that the management staff are just as human as you are. They *will* make mistakes, but they can also learn and grow from those mistakes just like you can. Management *shouldn't* be seen as an obstacle for you or your enemy. But it might take time to work the relationship out where both sides feel content.
We know that, depending on the company, there are good and bad management practices and managers overall. However, when it comes to the good ones, I think there are streamers, talents, or VTubers who are not suited for a structured or corporate type of work. They often view management as a barrier and refuse to collaborate with them to grow and learn in their 'relationship.' This can become exhausting for both sides, leading to many problems. One of the worst-case scenarios is the entertainer quitting or being fired. Most fans don't really care about these stuff and it is always "management bad/streamer good" at the end of the day. That being said, we have plenty of examples of bad management and corporate practices so it is very understandable that people are wary of that side of the business, as we should.
Yeah, this sounds harsh but I felt that a certain white haired dude need to do more and not skipped a lot of things including collabs. This sounds harsh but a reminder that he can't expect management to just tell him what to do when the talents also pitch in ideas to make their channel grow. Disappearing a lot doesn't help too.
Well, managers are not cleaners, they are called managers for a reason, one wrong thing, and everything you have built comes crashing down. Worse if it affects others. And they are not allowed to to that.
Yes, the problem is that they have no control once the camera is on, they can't do shit if the creator say something he/shouldn't say and get punished for it, it must be anxiety inducing for a manager every time your creator goes live.
It's just so easy for us to see vtubing as a fun job where all you do is play videogames and stuff, but there's so much behind the scenes. No wonder Gura takes so many breaks.
I mean it's still a very privileged job especially give how they can afford to take breaks. I'm sorry like I have a nice job and even I can't just take months off coz I'm feeling stressed and expect to keep my job. And I think I'm already in fairly comfy positions. There people who have to work while feeling sick because they have no sick day or breaks. They have to work because that's what keeps their families feed and housed. Every job is stressful.
@@RexZShadowI think that taking breaks is fully dependent on the talents "success", from a business standpoint. Vtubers with millions of subs, who earn in a single stream what some other Vtubers earn in a year, often take multi-month long breaks. No problem, they don't want to lose a cash cow. But for comparably smaller/less profitable streamers, they get a single break/hiatus, and if they can't make it work after they come back they aren't getting another break, they're getting the boot.
In addition, I imagine it must be an unbelievable amount of stress to be basically the top/face of your given profession and not feel like you're letting people down with anything short of perfection.
Building a better communication with management is also important, after all if you are an artist with a lot of brilliant ideas which you claim to be and signed in corporation, you need to know that both of you and manager's are perpetrators or some kind of "partner in crime" to make things work for you. One does not simply to say "oh it's their job to fix my mistakes" if you have terrible communication and bad chemistry with them in the first place, don't expect they willingly or consented to fix your shit if you and your managers are complete strangers despite knowing eachother for so long. Of course not saying you should befriend with them, being a sincere is one most important aspect to build better communication even with strangers, it will humble you and has positive effect to your environment, it can affect other people too.
Kronii went through a couple managers before she found one that she really meshed well with, and now they're thick as thieves, so to speak. Those other managers may have been reassigned to other talents or they may have left the company, we'll never know. The talent should never be shy about taking their issues up the chain if they, despite their best efforts, just can't get along with a manager.
Everyone needs someone to watch over them. John Romero helped make doom, and brought us the classic deus ex. He also made daikatana. The difference between deus ex, doom and daikatana is there were people wrangling John in doom and deus ex. Creatives sometimes need to be wrangled. Not that they are inherently bad. Just heady or over look things, And need to be brought back to earth now and then.
Let them do what they want to do and run damage control later...... yeah no, that will backfire and explode in everyones faces. All you need is one tiny little mistake to blow up a company. Not only in the immediate situation but also in the long run. I mean potential partnerships, collabs, etc. can hang in the balance just because one little mistake. And we all know how hungry the internet is for a new target to harass. The bigger the company the less flexible managers can be. And I'm going to be honest - if you can't understand that I don't think corporate VTubing is something for the long run.
I mean, if I manager was only reactive rather than proactive, shit would’ve hit the fan a lot more often. Cover’s management used to be reactionary, and it got them in deep legal waters that they were miraculously able to crawl back out of with minimal damage. After the Chris, Aloe, Coco v CN, and Rushia incident, it’s a good thing they’re being more proactive, not only to protect the brand but also their current employees. If anyone wants to have the pseudo corporate vtubing life, they should probably look towards vshojo, since they act more similarly to a contractor/partnership. You have a lot more freedom to do whatever you want, but you’re more likely to stumble on to a lot more drama and legal battles and when you’re in the deep end, you are generally on your own to drag yourself back out. And from what the Hogwarts, Nux, along with other allegations incidents could tell us, Vshojo the company can only help out the talent to a certain extent, the talents involved were to deal with it mostly on their own to varying success and clean up the aftermath on their own. Your point extends to working for big corporate businesses vs small firms irl. A person would need to compare the benefits and liabilities to working for ether types of businesses. Big corporate companies pays you really well, has better benefits packages, provides easy growth, allows you to make connections within the industry, and if shit hits the fan, the entity itself would be liable, so you’d a lot more leeway in making minor mistakes. You’d just need to sacrifice your soul, work life balance, be a lot more competitive to grow, and deal with having less freedom since you’d have to consider the company’s brand image and reputation. Smaller companies = slightly more freedom, nicer/more tightly knit employees, stronger connection, and a better work life balance, but you’d lose out on the big benefits package, a cut to your pay, and if you f’up slightly, it’d affect the company a lot more, and you’d have a higher chance of being fired.
High risk high reward, stuck on stale inovation wont do anygood to company that relies on entertaining people, while its good to avoid drama, it wont do good for long run
This clip was scrapped because he wasn't really sure where to go with the topic. I don't think he would just let a talent do whatever they want 100% of the time and its just not for him it seems. I think he would just want more approval at times on at least a few ideas if he were to have had any in a hypothetical scenario.
@@OrcClips-6 It is definitely a tough balancing act for all involved, the difference is how much the involved CARE about the balancing act cause I'm sure there are managers that while not really permissive they DO allow a bit more to the talent because they know its what they want... there's also the unknown managerial ladder cause we have: talent, their manager, maybe their boss (upper management) and the company itself (being the CEO + board of directors) and who knows how good or bad was the ladder from were Randon learned all this... wherever that is It's a balancing act... and the talent need to think if its worth the effort
"Let them do what they want to do" is some of the worst advices you can give to anyone in entertainment. If it turns south because of what you do and management isn't able to control the situation you put yourself in, whose fault will it be? It's a partnership rather than a master-servant relationship.
i often wonder about the songs corpo vtubers release and get millions of views. the dissonance of it all like "wow i made a song that got a million views" but nobody in your irl circle will ever know about it they just know it as the corpo vtuber idol and can't imagine in a million years its you.
If talent and manager are constantly clashing and the manager just keeps saying NO, it’s a bad fit and you need either another talent, another manager or another agency. Of course talents will have ideas that aren’t feasible, but then it’s the manager’s job to explain, whether it’s a branding risk, risk of getting sued, risk of violating TOS, lack of budget etc. Also, if a manager thinks it’s not their job to make the talent successful (because it’s not their KPI or whatever), that’s a terrible attitude. Your manager salary comes from the company revenues, so if you’re not here to grow that pot, why are you here?!
I mean we'll never know the whole story but from is allowed to be seen behind the scenes, he knew that, a friend of his knew that and that was one of the main factors for him leaving a..."certain job" some time ago now.
Ok but "let them do what they want to do, earn they trust and just do damage control" sounds like a terrible take, you can end with a false 4chan reaction stream that leave everyone looking bad , the ideal is a middle point when manager understand what problema or advantage an idea could've so the talent don't feel always rejected on what do on stream
It's not necessarily a terrible take, but a more western focused one. It's more like a high-risk high reward type of relationship. Japanese business mindset is mostly low risk, which is why managers tend to go the safer route.
@@BisonD00 It's not really a western focused mindset though, it's more if a "I don't fit in with a corporate environment" mindset. Having managers just be there for damage control doesn't really work when your fuck-ups don't just cause trouble for you but all of your co-workers as well.
@@BisonD00 It's just kind of a self-centered one (as in like the literal sense of the word, not trying to say that he's selfish). In the IDEAL scenario where everyone is on the same page and and can be reasonably trusted to not do anything egregiously stupid then yeah sure what he's describing would work fine. Issue being that even if he's justifiably confident in his ability to handle things and not fly too close to the sun, his manager might not be. It's understandable that you'd be hesitant to take a talent's word for it when they say "I know this sounds risky, but I know what I'm doing. Trust me." because the consequences for being wrong is that you just gave a guy permission to throw a wrench into the million dollar machine everyone depends on for a paycheck. All it takes is one knucklehead overestimating themselves to cause lasting collateral damage. I think his stance works fine for independents or relatively small group. Just not for something like a big corpo where there's comparatively a lot more to lose when things go wrong.
I think he's a realist about it, like I don't think he's trying to change big corpos or even really criticizing it, he just has an opinion. The way he comes off it sounds more like 'this is just the way it is'. I think he knows they have their hands tied. I believe he's just opining what would be optimal in an ideal vtubing world. And fully knowing that it can never be, well it's no stretch of the imagination to see why he quit so early. If he had any inkling that he could change the corp world, he'd still be there now. In that regard, he seems pretty pragmatic overall. Correct, they do have to change the management style and hierarchy in some other way to get their talent to not have to break so often, but all we can do is hope they figure it out.
Now the word, Mane-Chan doesn’t sound that pleasing to me anymore; no wonder that most time Mane-Chan has been brought up by the Vtuber they associates with, the story that the Vtuber told in regard of between them didn’t sound like something positive…
Dude, that kinda sucks, ngl. A mgr should absolutely get a bonus if the talent their managing does well. The talent depends on them for so much, so it's only fair.
Reputation cant easily be fixed just like that buddy especially to a fandom with alot of mouths and eyes that will go blaming people(management,talents) once something shit happens. Unlike indies you can still survive pretty easily once shit happens because you dont have 400+ people to pay their salary everyday plus other expenses. But its true though that being "safe" also limits the creativity of the talent but like i said this fandom even outside fandom from holo got alot of mouths once they go blaming someone when something happens.
Yeah, being a creative is no joke. Mental health is your no.1 concern for it especially if like what you said noncreative person treat you like a machine who need to keep producing good results. I'm so glad you still love streaming for us.
Okay first, love a nerdy orc I strongly approve. Second, the management thing is really disappointing. Because you do need someone with business knowledge to help you get attention and balance the books. But it's also so easy for that power dynamic to become abusive and they begin seeing you as a product not a person. It's something that I don't have a solution for because i am not in that industry but I can see and sympathize a lot with.
You still need to self-produce and not be passive. It's that fundamentally, vtubing for a company is a job. Management isn't a parent looking out for a child, they're adults treating you as an adult. Not to mention in this industry, you're more a contractor than an employee. In the end, even if they have the best intention, a company will look out for their own interests first and try not to rock the boat. It's on you to advocate for yourself, and that goes for work anywhere.
There are different types of managers, there are "enablers" who are there to help you achieve your goals and there are "controllers" who are there to make sure your endeavours align with the company policies and goals. If you ever get a manager as an indie you get, by design, an helper. If you go in a company they MIGHT be an helper, but even when they are, they also probably NEED to be controllers too. The balance found depends heavily on the company, but it's really not hard to imagine that Japanese companies above anything else prioritize control. And that's how we get Vshojo people gushing about their managers, because while their current and past managers bear the same title, their roles couldn't be more different. I also think that in a perfect world the roles of controlling (which is kinda necessary, even when lax) and enabling should be handled by different people.
I heard the “more rejection than you can think of” part, and it made me remember a Patton Oswalt bit called “Death Bed” (you can find the bit on UA-cam, it’s great) and how if you sell a movie to Hollywood, you have to go through a notes process that will drive you insane from uncreative people trying to edit your movie. In ways that are just to justify their own job and not actually contribute to the movie. "Um... we have some notes. On page two, she's eating peanuts, but then later she's wearing a hat. Does that make sense?" “WHAT THE *F-K* ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?” Even more hilarious, I found a random imgur picture of some actual screenwriters notes to Spielberg about “Back To The Future” and it’s the PERFECT example of this exact thing. And it all links to Orc talking about corpo Vtubers having managers, lol.
Something I've noticed is that when a corpo Vtuber graduates, and then goes back to being indie, they seem a lot happier. They seem to smile and laugh more, as well as having a more upbeat tone to their voice!
Definitely the new Meta. Use the company to build your own brand. Then retire to do your own thing. This is the absolute state of the Blue Dorito as of Late 2024
it's confirmation bias. They quit because they're tired or burned out. The flip side is you've no longer got the same level of support or opportunities for income. It's a job after all.
Yeah seems like managers or the upper management never want to take risk or at least try to manage any wrong things that will happen to their talents. And things will always go wrong at some point *"What the heck do I know tho"* Everything 😭😭
Part of being in a corp is learning to read the atmosphere, that's how you avoid a crazy amount of rejection. If you're getting so many rejections it damages your mental health, that's a sign you're not understanding the corp you're in. Not that he's necessarily wrong to describe management that way, but a lot of stories from other "corp vtubers" seem to paint a wildly different picture than the one he paints here. Maybe it's less a management thing and more a Randon thing.
it is nice to hear when things work out for other vtubers, but you also have to understand to look at managers and the corp not as a whole but different entities. Managers are humans as well, they can have different personalities, some more strict some lax, some of them you can vibe with and some you just cant etc... at least that's how I see what Randon is saying here.
There you go, now you're looking at the whole picture. What Randon said is very true generally, but he is the common denominator in all his stories and issues. There is absolutely a huge difference in managing someone like Bijou, and managing him.
It's kinda a luck of the draw in a way. I've experienced corpo life in the past, and I notice the uppity career oriented managers are the worse to be under into. They will push your limits and will always avoid risky choices because it will blemish their resume, because these managers will often jump ship as soon there are higher wage positions in other companies, and they need to look good. You are lucky if you are getting a steady veteran manager that probably had worked 3 to 5 years in a same company. These guys are a godsend! They usually approach things in a holistic manner. They look lazy and laid back, but they're often are just gung-ho af that they are efficient. What I love about them the most is that you propose a crazy idea, they will immediately think of ideas how to maximize it's rewards while thinking of ways to reduce the blowback.
hard to read the room behind all the red tape and lack of communication. he understands just fine he ended up in a tight-collared place that pushes his work hours instead of his potential, it doesnt mean he has to like it. You can also acknowledge that a company that disproportionately blames person A for the actions of person B will can easily lead to inefficiency and lacking performance.
Wonder if Vtuber corporations have considered incentivizing managers based on the success of their talents. It's a fairly common practice in other industries, where performance bonuses are granted upon reaching certain conditions. Could help balance out the weight of responsibility of managing a talent or employee.
I think there's a risk of things going bad in a different way if they did. Managers being incentivized to push their talents to put out more content or certain types of content would be a recipe for disaster.
@@brettgreen5044 Maybe, but in such a scenario the consequences are hypothetically balanced by the managers sharing the fallout. But I think it's less about pushing a talent to put out specific content, and more about sharing responsibility for not just failures, but success as well.
@VenerableAncient I'm less concerned that the content will suffer and more concerned the talent will suffer. With the number burnout/mental health hiatuses we've seen, I can't imagine that improving. And if any of them graduate as a result then it won't be much consolation that the manager lost income too.
@@VenerableAncient as someone else mentioned, this practice will go worse on the talent itself since the manager will also be pushing for a lot more out of the talent. It would push managers to push their talents past their breaking points simply so the talent would succeed not for themselves, but for the manager. When your success is reliant on someone else that's basically "below you (in a sense)" then sometimes you'd end up blaming them if you don't succeed
That's such a bad idea lol, look no further than what usually happens to child actors: abused to overwork themselves coz the parents get bragging rights and money out of the success their kids get.
I don't know much about art as a career. I am aware that other industries like tv, movie, video game industries, often have clashes with the creative developers and the business leaders who manage the health of the company. I feel like, at the end of the day, it's a job. Some people can stay at on job for a long time, other people might leave within a couple years, for new opportunities. I do hope, in spite of all the risk-adverse restrictions, the individual is able to stake out valuable accomplishments and skills learned from their career to bring to their next opportunity.
You don't own anything as a corpo vtuber, but some companies are clearly run by better people than others. When Prism Project closed up shop, they let the talent keep all their character assets with full blessing to go independent and do what they wanted with it. I think we can all name at least one company that would probably do the opposite, sending all the IP down with the ship and leaving the talent to sink or swim entirely on their own.
I know this is a serious conversation about the corpo side of vtubing as opposed to vtubers who are just rolling their own bones... However the entire time I'm sitting here thinking "Grug think meeting could be email...And why Grug not get vtuber promotion!? Grug manage five elfs! URGOK GET PROMOTION AND HE ONLY MANAGE TWO! Even Duhg get pay raise! And Duhg manage ONE IMP! DUHG NOT EVEN LIKE IMP!"
1:36 glad you know that's not how it works in corpo, its a balance. Letting your talents go ham and do anything is too risky, but not allowing them to do things and playing too safe stagnates their growth.
It's kinda rich coming from a guy who suddenly decide to stop working and bike around for a whole year. Then coming back again to his office and act like it's nothing wrong
The last part explains the main issue with the decreasing motivation after a while: why constantly fight the red tapes and management, to finally get something done, when the long term benefits of the projects will mostly go back to the very organization that made everything to prevent it from happening? It's like "Congratulation! You've overcame our obstacles hero! We're now gonna split the rewards: we get to keep half of the gold and the best item. See you on your next challenge hero!". I know that same org is also what made it possible in the first place, but the feeling of being robbed of your hardwork is hard to shake off I presume.
Which is why I don't think I'll ever again try to be creative at work... better to just leave the creativity to when I get back home from office and have the time to write of fanfic, draw, compose music, make playdough figurines, etc. of and for vtubers... on my own terms and without any deadlines.
You bring up interesting points. Vtuber managers having no incentive tied to the talent's success is different from every other talent management. Most managers for major hollywood talents get a cut of everything they make, so they want them to succeed because that gets them more money. Is there a way to effect change on this front?
If managers get no incentive to take risks, why should they? Can’t blame the manager for not advocating for you. I see it only fair that if the talent wants their manager to also be their advocate that the talent shares the profit with the manager. If the talent doesn’t see that as fair then the talent should advocate for themselves. Because they are the ones that can gain from the risk so they are the ones that should fight for it.
As sucks as it sounds, it's the truth you have to face when you get to work in a Company, wheter you like it or not. And it doesn't had to be a bad thing, it just how a company works. The main benefit to work In big corpo like hololive is stability, they may treat their talent well (or at least better) unlike kurosanji, but they still a corpo. This is probably the main reason why dooby go solo too.
I’m on the fence here with this. The tighter the leash on the talent, the more likely that they’ll not renew their contract. Make the talent happy and they’ll rake in more money.
I understand this but I can also understand the other side. A vtuber named Akai Haato was very creative back when she started. Unfortunately, she got targeted for it and went a whole year demonetized to the point it pretty much killed her channel. She being the strong vtuber that she is used it as a way to express her other self named Haachama, but still, her channel was making not much money compared to everyone else
@@jmutube61191Pretty sure she earns more in a year than 99% of Indies combined. It's all relative, of course, but I wouldn't say she was ever "unsuccessful".
@jmutube61191 I guess I should fix my words because some people dont understand and just take it literally. I know she was still making money, but being demonetized for a whole year still hurt her and her channel.
Imo most of them hiatus bcz health issue, and yes most what he said is what happen too in many corpo. And im sure he know what he mean by said that bcz he have "experience" on it.
I get his persspective but a manager of the company's top earner kinda means you're managing the company's top earner. Now managers generally have content creation experience. Thats usually why they get hired and are qualified to assist talents on projects. You'd have to be some ex-niji manager to take on the attitude Randon is describing. Because if you ever want advancement or promotion within the company. You're going to need a record of success to fall back on and thats not going to happen if you simply stifle your talent to be mediocre. If anything you're the next head on the chopping block when some downsizing is required.
This is such an interesting perspective and oddly inspiring. I wonder what it would take to be an effective , supportive and inspiring manager who can push boundaries for their talents in corpo, while confidently dealing with push back.
I think it's possible, but with smaller agencies. But at a point they get too big, and then they have shareholders who become more and more risk averse. Obviously nobody wants controversy, but when your talents are trying to entertain/grow their audience with one hand tied behind their back, you can't expect a miracle.
@@perotekku It's not just shareholders. Managers also have to take into account the literal Hundreds of employees and talents within the company who have nothing to do with the talent, but who's livelihoods might be affected just because a talent screwed up taking a major risk and got a big enough controversy going.
Just look at Shiori and Henma for a perfect example of that, Shiori pushes certain boundaries when it comes to being an Hololive but she understands where the limits are as well. One thing you have to keep in mind is that managers not only have to keep in mind the talent they manage but also how the decisions they make/things they let happen could impact the other talents as well.
I don't think it is good to let them do 100% what they want, because then what is the point of the manager? To tell you how to apologize or undo the destruction of your career/the company, which could be impossible? They should, however, definitely allow talents to push at the boundaries a bit and test things out.
Management has a flat income? No bonuses, no percentages, no monetary incentives to do well? That seems so backwards. Is that really the industry standard?
monetary incentives to do well would be fucked up in this industry, all it would lead to would be pushing the talents you manage to work harder/take less breaks so you get more money. That's not the kind of thing you want to incentivize.
@@TheGreatMaou I think that's painting things as black as they possibly could get. It would be a case of balancing the incentive to suit the purpose. Managers don't necessarily shift poles from being entirely risk averse, to the complete opposite just because of they're offered better pay for doing a better job.
@@PropaneWP There is no 'risk' in forcing the talent they are managing to do more. In addition, there is no real 'risk' in doing less. I think you are misusing the term 'risk averse' here.
It’s worth mentioning that his tenure under corporate management took place during a period widely viewed as the worst for the branch in terms of widespread motivation and stress. And that since his departure there have apparently been several management changes that have had a positive impact on all the talents.
But also the heart of the issues he mentioned are frankly just issues in corporate structure period. This isn't a Vtubing specific issue, just the suck of being a corporate employee.
One of the reason why someone said that when vtuber graduate, becoming a manager route is pretty much a downgrade and almost no one would want to take that route. but the recent management scandal honestly seems more like incompetence rather than creative vs non-creative differences. C vs NC applies when someone wants to take risks with a new project, and most senior member probably already have their fair share of rejection.
I am hoping this Orc Gentleman model becomes famous worldwide. I like it very much 😂. I have better outlook on creative independent Vtubers than the corpo ones. Are you one of the former?
While at the same time he only has his own perspective. His (now kinda) catchprhase carries to me the meaning "this is how I see it, its not 100% accurate, but is how I see it" which is important to remember because to other people it might have been a very different situation. Sometimes worse, sometimes better
The Randon model gives me an uncomfortable feeling, I was never interested in watching his streams because his model makes me uncomfortable to see with my eyes, that's why almost no one wants to do collabs with him because he's very different than most vtubers, he should commission a new model that instead of an orc, the design is like a charming prince, and by the way, his name Randon sounds like Random, and is a generic name like most indie vtubers.
Bigham is that you
He's unique without being overdesigned and fits a daddy archetype, what's not to like?
@@OrcClips-6 I scrolled back up to see what the fuck they were talking about and started uncontrollably laughing at how someone could be uncomfortable at the sight of randon's model LMAO
Is this a does he know or an actual bad opinion
what if he had big boobs?
That "What the heck do I know though?" is his catchphrase at this point lmao
"What do i know though?"
*proceeds to clutch his stress bought boar spear*
His situation might not have been as bad as certain Rainbow victims 🌈
..... But I do think this video decently demonstrates how this doesn't invalidate the problems that he dealt with in that other corporation 😢
@@chimeragenesis361 That's the crux of it. Rainbow corpo made the blue dorito stan say "But what about niji doing worse" and while they're technically correct, it's still whataboutism.
Corpo worship is incredibly unhealthy. Always remember: talent first
I hope the blue haired leader is doing well, i wish him the best
Sorry, I'm out of the loop. What happened?
@@herofromthedark long story short, a good amount of rejected stuff and loss of some money.
@@igreyfox9793 damn. Is he taking a break? Or is he gonna graduate when it's time to renew his contract, you think?
@@herofromthedark Brother, not the place to discuss that.
Hope so, the situation is reminiscent of Aug 2023, and 🌈 Jan 2024.
I understand that managers need to, well, manage. But as Randon said, you're hiring these people to be entertainers, then trying to milk them for profit by doing dull/stale content.
I do feel sorry for management for this very reason actually, because they're often the classic example of "You only hear about them when something goes wrong".
They work very hard, and yeah, most of the time they're making much less than the talent and get no reward for success, only punishment for failure. They're encouraged to be overly cautious and restrictive.
It's a somewhat busted dynamic in a few ways to be honest.
Much like IT people, if the job is going well, you never see/hear them, but if something goes wrong, they not only get a large part of the blame, but are expected to fix it while observers call them lazy and incompetent.
Like an anti-survivorship bias.
@@corrinflakes9659Still survivorship bias, since the "good" managers have a higher chance to "die" compared to the "safe" managers the number of "safe" managers are disproportionally represented and could be misunderstood as better (because more years of experience without "dying").
Yeah, I don't like how hostile Randon sounded here, because he should have more empathy considering how thankless being a manager can be: it's like being lower on the totem pole but you have more work and are more replaceable, with even less compensation. This is a potentially oppressive combination, and it takes a special kind of person to be willing to subject yourself to that kind of experience. You have to really love your job and/or the people in the company.
To some degree I understand Randon's bitterness considering his personal experience, but his flippant disregard of management might have been why he was hard to manage, and I say this knowing full well that the management was clearly inadequate at the time. This is good reminder of why it is so important to find the right kind of people to be managers and also these companies should compensate the workers well and give them time off when they need it. Randon's level of animosity happens when you allow a toxic culture to develop because talents and management do not get the respect or investment they deserve.
@@Tahanok2 I work inventory, and hang out with some IT guys, and I like to say we are the Digestive system.
I do think it's a pretty fair assessment. Having creativity under wraps can be stifling, but risk management is always something to consider as well. It's a give and take that requires a lot of compromising that only few can really handle.
I dont agree with him Especially on the stance that "the management should let the talents do whatever they wanted, then came in later to fix the problem that will happened."
Management were supposed to, you know, managing? They weren't supposed to sit still and let the talents dealing with everything by themself then only appeared at the end trying to do the damage control. That's not a good management, Just an incompetent one.
The Balance is tbh based on what Corpo it is.
Niji is a peak case of being not only toxic, but also iron fisted with having the talents only do stuff that has proven track of working and bring lots of money quick, while anything that remotely demands above the bare minimum in Corpo investment is rejected with very little in exceptions to that.
While Cover does make the Talents play safe for the most part, they do let them first experiment to define their image for the fanbase they will build, and permit experimentation as possible, so long the core tenets of the Idol Seiso image is kept within the tolerance levels.
Letting the Talent experiment too much and be a reactive Management is bad, but being Micromanagerial or just Unwilling to allow breaking the mold out of unwillingness to take risks is also bad.
The balance is indeed in where the company is willing to go, and how much the talent is willing to concede to get the project approved.
@@andrehashimoto8056I am going to be frank with you. Lots of your crap is pure fiction.
And in the first place. At around the time cover went public and came out with the new gens like advent.
You might have noticed that the talents have been enjoying way more freedom than before. Notice how there are more cross gender collabs with no issues, the girls are now swearing more openly and they are doing waaaaaaaaay more collabs out of the company than before. Lessons were learned during Tempus HQ. And the tight reins they use to do definitely reflected badly on the company. And it hurt them in the wallet as it stifled growth.
@@kmel3588 I know it will annoy some people that I'm comparing things, but really, this reads like Niji's modus operandi.
Yeah, I can see where Randon is coming from as the artist. I still think that if management being passive and only should be cleaning up after talents can have an issue of it's own. I like to think that risk management is an important aspect of any industry especially vtubing since the audience is big and anti is ready to ponce at a scent of "weakness". I do hope though that company can balance risk management and creative freedom to let their talents grow in a healthy and non-toxic enviorment.
Btw this is a scrapped clip from april 2024. This channel will just be for random clips of all varieties incuding ones not turned into shorts and maybe reuse some videos already made into shorts. - A
You might want to pin this.
Yeah that is important context showing it in not in response to the blue hair guy thing but was an accurate analysis of larger institutional realities.
@@digivagrant This channel was made 6 days ago so I cannot, it requests picture of government ID, needed for advanced features like pinning a comment.
@@OrcClips-6 That is so bizarre. Google really is cringe sometimes
@@OrcClips-6 ... Dafuq?
Some people just aren't cut out for the corporate environment. It's not that a talent's "bad" or that management is "bad", it's just that they don't mesh well.
I myself, being such a creative and expressive person, probably wouldn't thrive well within the restrictions of a corporate management.
Wish more people got this. It'd curtail a lot of drama when talent is let go.
Hoshimachi Suisei, a corpo Vtuber from Hololive, recently had a really good introspective on something similar.
I'm paraphrasing a bit, but essentially her advice was to not be passive in your relationship with management and to not expect them to be perfect.
To add my own interpretation on top of this, it's extremely important to remember that the management staff are just as human as you are. They *will* make mistakes, but they can also learn and grow from those mistakes just like you can. Management *shouldn't* be seen as an obstacle for you or your enemy. But it might take time to work the relationship out where both sides feel content.
We know that, depending on the company, there are good and bad management practices and managers overall. However, when it comes to the good ones, I think there are streamers, talents, or VTubers who are not suited for a structured or corporate type of work. They often view management as a barrier and refuse to collaborate with them to grow and learn in their 'relationship.' This can become exhausting for both sides, leading to many problems. One of the worst-case scenarios is the entertainer quitting or being fired. Most fans don't really care about these stuff and it is always "management bad/streamer good" at the end of the day. That being said, we have plenty of examples of bad management and corporate practices so it is very understandable that people are wary of that side of the business, as we should.
Yeah, this sounds harsh but I felt that a certain white haired dude need to do more and not skipped a lot of things including collabs. This sounds harsh but a reminder that he can't expect management to just tell him what to do when the talents also pitch in ideas to make their channel grow. Disappearing a lot doesn't help too.
@@kos2919 I'm kinda out of the loop here, who is the white haired dude?
@@huonglevan2276check vesper ex holostar.
@@huonglevan2276 Oh you know who
Well, managers are not cleaners, they are called managers for a reason, one wrong thing, and everything you have built comes crashing down. Worse if it affects others. And they are not allowed to to that.
Yes, the problem is that they have no control once the camera is on, they can't do shit if the creator say something he/shouldn't say and get punished for it, it must be anxiety inducing for a manager every time your creator goes live.
It's just so easy for us to see vtubing as a fun job where all you do is play videogames and stuff, but there's so much behind the scenes. No wonder Gura takes so many breaks.
Yeah stress is crazy.
Plus on top of that if u have Heath issues
I mean it's still a very privileged job especially give how they can afford to take breaks. I'm sorry like I have a nice job and even I can't just take months off coz I'm feeling stressed and expect to keep my job.
And I think I'm already in fairly comfy positions. There people who have to work while feeling sick because they have no sick day or breaks. They have to work because that's what keeps their families feed and housed.
Every job is stressful.
@@RexZShadowI think that taking breaks is fully dependent on the talents "success", from a business standpoint.
Vtubers with millions of subs, who earn in a single stream what some other Vtubers earn in a year, often take multi-month long breaks. No problem, they don't want to lose a cash cow.
But for comparably smaller/less profitable streamers, they get a single break/hiatus, and if they can't make it work after they come back they aren't getting another break, they're getting the boot.
In addition, I imagine it must be an unbelievable amount of stress to be basically the top/face of your given profession and not feel like you're letting people down with anything short of perfection.
While Randon's perspective is accurate, that is THE worst comparison you could've made here.
Fucking chumbud.
Building a better communication with management is also important, after all if you are an artist with a lot of brilliant ideas which you claim to be and signed in corporation, you need to know that both of you and manager's are perpetrators or some kind of "partner in crime" to make things work for you.
One does not simply to say "oh it's their job to fix my mistakes" if you have terrible communication and bad chemistry with them in the first place, don't expect they willingly or consented to fix your shit if you and your managers are complete strangers despite knowing eachother for so long.
Of course not saying you should befriend with them, being a sincere is one most important aspect to build better communication even with strangers, it will humble you and has positive effect to your environment, it can affect other people too.
Kronii went through a couple managers before she found one that she really meshed well with, and now they're thick as thieves, so to speak. Those other managers may have been reassigned to other talents or they may have left the company, we'll never know. The talent should never be shy about taking their issues up the chain if they, despite their best efforts, just can't get along with a manager.
bro the comment section went insane with this one lmaoooo
good luck akashi lol
same old same old
Alright that explains alot about a certain Alucard cosplayer. I'd definitely get into fights with management
Love the model, super unique, and great analysis on the phenomenon
Everyone needs someone to watch over them. John Romero helped make doom, and brought us the classic deus ex. He also made daikatana. The difference between deus ex, doom and daikatana is there were people wrangling John in doom and deus ex. Creatives sometimes need to be wrangled. Not that they are inherently bad. Just heady or over look things, And need to be brought back to earth now and then.
we love u randon neuring
*Very understanding nods*
Let them do what they want to do and run damage control later...... yeah no, that will backfire and explode in everyones faces. All you need is one tiny little mistake to blow up a company. Not only in the immediate situation but also in the long run. I mean potential partnerships, collabs, etc. can hang in the balance just because one little mistake. And we all know how hungry the internet is for a new target to harass.
The bigger the company the less flexible managers can be. And I'm going to be honest - if you can't understand that I don't think corporate VTubing is something for the long run.
And that is exactly why Randon and Lando left. You nailed it right on the head.
I mean, if I manager was only reactive rather than proactive, shit would’ve hit the fan a lot more often. Cover’s management used to be reactionary, and it got them in deep legal waters that they were miraculously able to crawl back out of with minimal damage. After the Chris, Aloe, Coco v CN, and Rushia incident, it’s a good thing they’re being more proactive, not only to protect the brand but also their current employees. If anyone wants to have the pseudo corporate vtubing life, they should probably look towards vshojo, since they act more similarly to a contractor/partnership. You have a lot more freedom to do whatever you want, but you’re more likely to stumble on to a lot more drama and legal battles and when you’re in the deep end, you are generally on your own to drag yourself back out. And from what the Hogwarts, Nux, along with other allegations incidents could tell us, Vshojo the company can only help out the talent to a certain extent, the talents involved were to deal with it mostly on their own to varying success and clean up the aftermath on their own.
Your point extends to working for big corporate businesses vs small firms irl. A person would need to compare the benefits and liabilities to working for ether types of businesses. Big corporate companies pays you really well, has better benefits packages, provides easy growth, allows you to make connections within the industry, and if shit hits the fan, the entity itself would be liable, so you’d a lot more leeway in making minor mistakes. You’d just need to sacrifice your soul, work life balance, be a lot more competitive to grow, and deal with having less freedom since you’d have to consider the company’s brand image and reputation. Smaller companies = slightly more freedom, nicer/more tightly knit employees, stronger connection, and a better work life balance, but you’d lose out on the big benefits package, a cut to your pay, and if you f’up slightly, it’d affect the company a lot more, and you’d have a higher chance of being fired.
High risk high reward, stuck on stale inovation wont do anygood to company that relies on entertaining people, while its good to avoid drama, it wont do good for long run
This clip was scrapped because he wasn't really sure where to go with the topic. I don't think he would just let a talent do whatever they want 100% of the time and its just not for him it seems. I think he would just want more approval at times on at least a few ideas if he were to have had any in a hypothetical scenario.
@@OrcClips-6 It is definitely a tough balancing act for all involved, the difference is how much the involved CARE about the balancing act cause I'm sure there are managers that while not really permissive they DO allow a bit more to the talent because they know its what they want... there's also the unknown managerial ladder cause we have: talent, their manager, maybe their boss (upper management) and the company itself (being the CEO + board of directors) and who knows how good or bad was the ladder from were Randon learned all this... wherever that is
It's a balancing act... and the talent need to think if its worth the effort
Always love hearing this guy talk
"Let them do what they want to do" is some of the worst advices you can give to anyone in entertainment. If it turns south because of what you do and management isn't able to control the situation you put yourself in, whose fault will it be? It's a partnership rather than a master-servant relationship.
i often wonder about the songs corpo vtubers release and get millions of views.
the dissonance of it all like "wow i made a song that got a million views" but nobody in your irl circle will ever know about it they just know it as the corpo vtuber idol and can't imagine in a million years its you.
If talent and manager are constantly clashing and the manager just keeps saying NO, it’s a bad fit and you need either another talent, another manager or another agency.
Of course talents will have ideas that aren’t feasible, but then it’s the manager’s job to explain, whether it’s a branding risk, risk of getting sued, risk of violating TOS, lack of budget etc.
Also, if a manager thinks it’s not their job to make the talent successful (because it’s not their KPI or whatever), that’s a terrible attitude. Your manager salary comes from the company revenues, so if you’re not here to grow that pot, why are you here?!
im thankful for your insights over this
he's a great guy and a great creator. He's just not the kind of talent that can thrive in an agency
I mean we'll never know the whole story but from is allowed to be seen behind the scenes, he knew that, a friend of his knew that and that was one of the main factors for him leaving a..."certain job" some time ago now.
Grandpa halu of another life.
vesperrrrrrr
wow, ork in a suit talking in low gothic? what next, ork warboss with roman Toga talking in Latin at a podium?
Wise orc of the bike shop, thank you for your wisdom.
Meanwhile Michi to her manager: "Please give me rules and limits i can follow"
Ok but "let them do what they want to do, earn they trust and just do damage control" sounds like a terrible take, you can end with a false 4chan reaction stream that leave everyone looking bad , the ideal is a middle point when manager understand what problema or advantage an idea could've so the talent don't feel always rejected on what do on stream
I fully agree, there's a fine line where someone with PR or business sense needs to reign in the talents.
It's not necessarily a terrible take, but a more western focused one. It's more like a high-risk high reward type of relationship. Japanese business mindset is mostly low risk, which is why managers tend to go the safer route.
@@BisonD00 It's not really a western focused mindset though, it's more if a "I don't fit in with a corporate environment" mindset. Having managers just be there for damage control doesn't really work when your fuck-ups don't just cause trouble for you but all of your co-workers as well.
@@BisonD00 It's just kind of a self-centered one (as in like the literal sense of the word, not trying to say that he's selfish). In the IDEAL scenario where everyone is on the same page and and can be reasonably trusted to not do anything egregiously stupid then yeah sure what he's describing would work fine. Issue being that even if he's justifiably confident in his ability to handle things and not fly too close to the sun, his manager might not be. It's understandable that you'd be hesitant to take a talent's word for it when they say "I know this sounds risky, but I know what I'm doing. Trust me." because the consequences for being wrong is that you just gave a guy permission to throw a wrench into the million dollar machine everyone depends on for a paycheck. All it takes is one knucklehead overestimating themselves to cause lasting collateral damage.
I think his stance works fine for independents or relatively small group. Just not for something like a big corpo where there's comparatively a lot more to lose when things go wrong.
I think he's a realist about it, like I don't think he's trying to change big corpos or even really criticizing it, he just has an opinion. The way he comes off it sounds more like 'this is just the way it is'. I think he knows they have their hands tied. I believe he's just opining what would be optimal in an ideal vtubing world. And fully knowing that it can never be, well it's no stretch of the imagination to see why he quit so early. If he had any inkling that he could change the corp world, he'd still be there now. In that regard, he seems pretty pragmatic overall. Correct, they do have to change the management style and hierarchy in some other way to get their talent to not have to break so often, but all we can do is hope they figure it out.
How this damn Orc became so civilized???
Now the word, Mane-Chan doesn’t sound that pleasing to me anymore; no wonder that most time Mane-Chan has been brought up by the Vtuber they associates with, the story that the Vtuber told in regard of between them didn’t sound like something positive…
Dude, that kinda sucks, ngl. A mgr should absolutely get a bonus if the talent their managing does well. The talent depends on them for so much, so it's only fair.
I just assumed it was because they keep getting pregnant
sorry, my fault
Not pregnant but probably SAd
@@omgman5745 Most vtubers are sad, they don't take hiatuses for it, they just cry on stream
Reputation cant easily be fixed just like that buddy especially to a fandom with alot of mouths and eyes that will go blaming people(management,talents) once something shit happens. Unlike indies you can still survive pretty easily once shit happens because you dont have 400+ people to pay their salary everyday plus other expenses. But its true though that being "safe" also limits the creativity of the talent but like i said this fandom even outside fandom from holo got alot of mouths once they go blaming someone when something happens.
Thank you for the video Randon
Yeah, being a creative is no joke. Mental health is your no.1 concern for it especially if like what you said noncreative person treat you like a machine who need to keep producing good results. I'm so glad you still love streaming for us.
Okay first, love a nerdy orc I strongly approve. Second, the management thing is really disappointing. Because you do need someone with business knowledge to help you get attention and balance the books. But it's also so easy for that power dynamic to become abusive and they begin seeing you as a product not a person. It's something that I don't have a solution for because i am not in that industry but I can see and sympathize a lot with.
You still need to self-produce and not be passive. It's that fundamentally, vtubing for a company is a job. Management isn't a parent looking out for a child, they're adults treating you as an adult.
Not to mention in this industry, you're more a contractor than an employee. In the end, even if they have the best intention, a company will look out for their own interests first and try not to rock the boat. It's on you to advocate for yourself, and that goes for work anywhere.
There are different types of managers, there are "enablers" who are there to help you achieve your goals and there are "controllers" who are there to make sure your endeavours align with the company policies and goals.
If you ever get a manager as an indie you get, by design, an helper. If you go in a company they MIGHT be an helper, but even when they are, they also probably NEED to be controllers too. The balance found depends heavily on the company, but it's really not hard to imagine that Japanese companies above anything else prioritize control. And that's how we get Vshojo people gushing about their managers, because while their current and past managers bear the same title, their roles couldn't be more different.
I also think that in a perfect world the roles of controlling (which is kinda necessary, even when lax) and enabling should be handled by different people.
So this is why Hololive and Holostars are having some of their talents take extended breaks.
Thank you for the video
I heard the “more rejection than you can think of” part, and it made me remember a Patton Oswalt bit called “Death Bed” (you can find the bit on UA-cam, it’s great) and how if you sell a movie to Hollywood, you have to go through a notes process that will drive you insane from uncreative people trying to edit your movie. In ways that are just to justify their own job and not actually contribute to the movie.
"Um... we have some notes. On page two, she's eating peanuts, but then later she's wearing a hat. Does that make sense?"
“WHAT THE *F-K* ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?”
Even more hilarious, I found a random imgur picture of some actual screenwriters notes to Spielberg about “Back To The Future” and it’s the PERFECT example of this exact thing. And it all links to Orc talking about corpo Vtubers having managers, lol.
I thought this was a Warhammer comic dub at first lol
QUICK GRAB THE TOURCHES!!!
ORC IN THE- oh wait wait hear him out, he makes good points
Something I've noticed is that when a corpo Vtuber graduates, and then goes back to being indie, they seem a lot happier. They seem to smile and laugh more, as well as having a more upbeat tone to their voice!
That basically describes every job ever though. If you're working for yourself you have more freedom and usually less stress.
Definitely the new Meta. Use the company to build your own brand. Then retire to do your own thing. This is the absolute state of the Blue Dorito as of Late 2024
because being involved in any kind of corpo is soul draining
@@f.b.l.9813 yeah, Gibby definitely seems miserable. ua-cam.com/video/fjm0T_SyJsE/v-deo.html
it's confirmation bias. They quit because they're tired or burned out. The flip side is you've no longer got the same level of support or opportunities for income. It's a job after all.
Naruhodo
RUNESCAPE MUSIC!
Also yea he definitely knows
Well, he's very well versed in the whole matter. In a way?
Of course he is, he's your friendly neighbourhood orc vtuber.
I mean, what the heck does he knows anyways right
that thumbnail
Yeah seems like managers or the upper management never want to take risk or at least try to manage any wrong things that will happen to their talents. And things will always go wrong at some point
*"What the heck do I know tho"* Everything 😭😭
Part of being in a corp is learning to read the atmosphere, that's how you avoid a crazy amount of rejection. If you're getting so many rejections it damages your mental health, that's a sign you're not understanding the corp you're in. Not that he's necessarily wrong to describe management that way, but a lot of stories from other "corp vtubers" seem to paint a wildly different picture than the one he paints here. Maybe it's less a management thing and more a Randon thing.
it is nice to hear when things work out for other vtubers, but you also have to understand to look at managers and the corp not as a whole but different entities. Managers are humans as well, they can have different personalities, some more strict some lax, some of them you can vibe with and some you just cant etc... at least that's how I see what Randon is saying here.
@@nagz5709 I heard of vtubers changing their managers, but I don't know if it's valid for this reason; to change managers if they don't mesh well.
There you go, now you're looking at the whole picture.
What Randon said is very true generally, but he is the common denominator in all his stories and issues.
There is absolutely a huge difference in managing someone like Bijou, and managing him.
It's kinda a luck of the draw in a way. I've experienced corpo life in the past, and I notice the uppity career oriented managers are the worse to be under into. They will push your limits and will always avoid risky choices because it will blemish their resume, because these managers will often jump ship as soon there are higher wage positions in other companies, and they need to look good. You are lucky if you are getting a steady veteran manager that probably had worked 3 to 5 years in a same company. These guys are a godsend! They usually approach things in a holistic manner. They look lazy and laid back, but they're often are just gung-ho af that they are efficient. What I love about them the most is that you propose a crazy idea, they will immediately think of ideas how to maximize it's rewards while thinking of ways to reduce the blowback.
hard to read the room behind all the red tape and lack of communication. he understands just fine he ended up in a tight-collared place that pushes his work hours instead of his potential, it doesnt mean he has to like it. You can also acknowledge that a company that disproportionately blames person A for the actions of person B will can easily lead to inefficiency and lacking performance.
Not doing anything risky? Sounds like a AAA game studio or movie studio
I am both glad but also upset that the dice fell the way they did. I'm glad I discovered Randon Neuring.
Wonder if Vtuber corporations have considered incentivizing managers based on the success of their talents. It's a fairly common practice in other industries, where performance bonuses are granted upon reaching certain conditions. Could help balance out the weight of responsibility of managing a talent or employee.
I think there's a risk of things going bad in a different way if they did. Managers being incentivized to push their talents to put out more content or certain types of content would be a recipe for disaster.
@@brettgreen5044 Maybe, but in such a scenario the consequences are hypothetically balanced by the managers sharing the fallout. But I think it's less about pushing a talent to put out specific content, and more about sharing responsibility for not just failures, but success as well.
@VenerableAncient I'm less concerned that the content will suffer and more concerned the talent will suffer. With the number burnout/mental health hiatuses we've seen, I can't imagine that improving. And if any of them graduate as a result then it won't be much consolation that the manager lost income too.
@@VenerableAncient as someone else mentioned, this practice will go worse on the talent itself since the manager will also be pushing for a lot more out of the talent. It would push managers to push their talents past their breaking points simply so the talent would succeed not for themselves, but for the manager. When your success is reliant on someone else that's basically "below you (in a sense)" then sometimes you'd end up blaming them if you don't succeed
That's such a bad idea lol, look no further than what usually happens to child actors: abused to overwork themselves coz the parents get bragging rights and money out of the success their kids get.
It makes sense. Thank you for sharing!
I don't know much about art as a career. I am aware that other industries like tv, movie, video game industries, often have clashes with the creative developers and the business leaders who manage the health of the company. I feel like, at the end of the day, it's a job. Some people can stay at on job for a long time, other people might leave within a couple years, for new opportunities. I do hope, in spite of all the risk-adverse restrictions, the individual is able to stake out valuable accomplishments and skills learned from their career to bring to their next opportunity.
You don't own anything as a corpo vtuber, but some companies are clearly run by better people than others. When Prism Project closed up shop, they let the talent keep all their character assets with full blessing to go independent and do what they wanted with it. I think we can all name at least one company that would probably do the opposite, sending all the IP down with the ship and leaving the talent to sink or swim entirely on their own.
I know this is a serious conversation about the corpo side of vtubing as opposed to vtubers who are just rolling their own bones...
However the entire time I'm sitting here thinking "Grug think meeting could be email...And why Grug not get vtuber promotion!? Grug manage five elfs! URGOK GET PROMOTION AND HE ONLY MANAGE TWO! Even Duhg get pay raise! And Duhg manage ONE IMP! DUHG NOT EVEN LIKE IMP!"
And this is why indie is growing.
1:36 glad you know that's not how it works in corpo, its a balance.
Letting your talents go ham and do anything is too risky, but not allowing them to do things and playing too safe stagnates their growth.
Thinking emoji
It's kinda rich coming from a guy who suddenly decide to stop working and bike around for a whole year. Then coming back again to his office and act like it's nothing wrong
They're rich they can afford not doing their job
I see 🤔
The last part explains the main issue with the decreasing motivation after a while: why constantly fight the red tapes and management, to finally get something done, when the long term benefits of the projects will mostly go back to the very organization that made everything to prevent it from happening?
It's like "Congratulation! You've overcame our obstacles hero! We're now gonna split the rewards: we get to keep half of the gold and the best item. See you on your next challenge hero!".
I know that same org is also what made it possible in the first place, but the feeling of being robbed of your hardwork is hard to shake off I presume.
Eeeh, I posted a second comment with pretty normal stuff, not mentioning any name or anything, and yet it's filtered. Dunno what's going on 😯
Wait am i wrong or what is like i know he voice before like 2 year ago???
Which is why I don't think I'll ever again try to be creative at work... better to just leave the creativity to when I get back home from office and have the time to write of fanfic, draw, compose music, make playdough figurines, etc. of and for vtubers... on my own terms and without any deadlines.
nods nods
You bring up interesting points. Vtuber managers having no incentive tied to the talent's success is different from every other talent management. Most managers for major hollywood talents get a cut of everything they make, so they want them to succeed because that gets them more money. Is there a way to effect change on this front?
If managers get no incentive to take risks, why should they?
Can’t blame the manager for not advocating for you.
I see it only fair that if the talent wants their manager to also be their advocate that the talent shares the profit with the manager.
If the talent doesn’t see that as fair then the talent should advocate for themselves. Because they are the ones that can gain from the risk so they are the ones that should fight for it.
As sucks as it sounds, it's the truth you have to face when you get to work in a Company, wheter you like it or not. And it doesn't had to be a bad thing, it just how a company works. The main benefit to work In big corpo like hololive is stability, they may treat their talent well (or at least better) unlike kurosanji, but they still a corpo. This is probably the main reason why dooby go solo too.
agrees in honduran white bat
"I understood that reference"
ominous runescape music...
I’m on the fence here with this. The tighter the leash on the talent, the more likely that they’ll not renew their contract. Make the talent happy and they’ll rake in more money.
I understand this but I can also understand the other side. A vtuber named Akai Haato was very creative back when she started. Unfortunately, she got targeted for it and went a whole year demonetized to the point it pretty much killed her channel. She being the strong vtuber that she is used it as a way to express her other self named Haachama, but still, her channel was making not much money compared to everyone else
"making no money" u sure about that?
@@jmutube61191Pretty sure she earns more in a year than 99% of Indies combined.
It's all relative, of course, but I wouldn't say she was ever "unsuccessful".
@@perotekku ur replying to the wrong guy...
@@jmutube61191 Was intentional, I was agreeing with you, although I can see that my comment wasn't very clear on that.
@jmutube61191 I guess I should fix my words because some people dont understand and just take it literally. I know she was still making money, but being demonetized for a whole year still hurt her and her channel.
Imo most of them hiatus bcz health issue, and yes most what he said is what happen too in many corpo. And im sure he know what he mean by said that bcz he have "experience" on it.
I get his persspective but a manager of the company's top earner kinda means you're managing the company's top earner.
Now managers generally have content creation experience. Thats usually why they get hired and are qualified to assist talents on projects.
You'd have to be some ex-niji manager to take on the attitude Randon is describing. Because if you ever want advancement or promotion within the company. You're going to need a record of success to fall back on and thats not going to happen if you simply stifle your talent to be mediocre. If anything you're the next head on the chopping block when some downsizing is required.
This is like the problem between publishers and game developers
Randon..
This is such an interesting perspective and oddly inspiring.
I wonder what it would take to be an effective , supportive and inspiring manager who can push boundaries for their talents in corpo, while confidently dealing with push back.
I think it's possible, but with smaller agencies.
But at a point they get too big, and then they have shareholders who become more and more risk averse.
Obviously nobody wants controversy, but when your talents are trying to entertain/grow their audience with one hand tied behind their back, you can't expect a miracle.
@@perotekku It's not just shareholders. Managers also have to take into account the literal Hundreds of employees and talents within the company who have nothing to do with the talent, but who's livelihoods might be affected just because a talent screwed up taking a major risk and got a big enough controversy going.
Just look at Shiori and Henma for a perfect example of that, Shiori pushes certain boundaries when it comes to being an Hololive but she understands where the limits are as well.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that managers not only have to keep in mind the talent they manage but also how the decisions they make/things they let happen could impact the other talents as well.
@@perotekku you have managers like that in Hololive so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by saying it's only possible with small agencies.
had no idea there was ah civilized orc
I don't think it is good to let them do 100% what they want, because then what is the point of the manager? To tell you how to apologize or undo the destruction of your career/the company, which could be impossible? They should, however, definitely allow talents to push at the boundaries a bit and test things out.
Lol I never knew Orcs would have such a normal nice human voice in our time.
"What the heck do I know though? 🤔!!
Management has a flat income? No bonuses, no percentages, no monetary incentives to do well? That seems so backwards. Is that really the industry standard?
Greedy corporations particularly the higher ups/upper echelon do be like that.
monetary incentives to do well would be fucked up in this industry, all it would lead to would be pushing the talents you manage to work harder/take less breaks so you get more money. That's not the kind of thing you want to incentivize.
@@TheGreatMaou I think that's painting things as black as they possibly could get. It would be a case of balancing the incentive to suit the purpose. Managers don't necessarily shift poles from being entirely risk averse, to the complete opposite just because of they're offered better pay for doing a better job.
@@PropaneWP There is no 'risk' in forcing the talent they are managing to do more. In addition, there is no real 'risk' in doing less. I think you are misusing the term 'risk averse' here.
@@comradeofthebalance3147 So you disagree with Randon's take that Vtuber managers are averse to taking risks?
❤❤❤❤❤❤
1:47 You own your fanbase and they'll follow you even after you leave so i disagree with this takes.
It’s worth mentioning that his tenure under corporate management took place during a period widely viewed as the worst for the branch in terms of widespread motivation and stress. And that since his departure there have apparently been several management changes that have had a positive impact on all the talents.
But also the heart of the issues he mentioned are frankly just issues in corporate structure period. This isn't a Vtubing specific issue, just the suck of being a corporate employee.
Оркадий?
One of the reason why someone said that when vtuber graduate, becoming a manager route is pretty much a downgrade and almost no one would want to take that route.
but the recent management scandal honestly seems more like incompetence rather than creative vs non-creative differences.
C vs NC applies when someone wants to take risks with a new project, and most senior member probably already have their fair share of rejection.
I am hoping this Orc Gentleman model becomes famous worldwide. I like it very much 😂.
I have better outlook on creative independent Vtubers than the corpo ones. Are you one of the former?
Randon Neuring is an independent male English-language VTuber. He streams on UA-cam and Twitch.
@OrcClips-6 I will just enjoy the titbits 🤣
Glad to know that you are independent. That one music director incident in corpo really startled me.
In the near future, many more will probably go indie and they will create their own vtuber company with blackjack and hooker.
which leads to more corpos and the cycle repeats
Nods
"What the heck do I know though?" when in reality he's been-there-done-that, and more than qualified to opine lmfao
While at the same time he only has his own perspective. His (now kinda) catchprhase carries to me the meaning "this is how I see it, its not 100% accurate, but is how I see it" which is important to remember because to other people it might have been a very different situation. Sometimes worse, sometimes better
Interesante
The Orc has some wise words. Thank you for the the interesting video.
Green is not a creative color.
... ah so thats why i keep getting rejected for agencies - i want to do something that's different :')