I honestly don't know how and why people would believe you to be ''arrogant'' in any way shape or form. Correcting the ignorance of someone who even admits he does not know a particular position but express that the position is wrong isn't arrogance, it simply is caring for truth.
The NC is the CoG! Therefore the believing saints of the OC did participate prospectively in the NC/CoG the same way they participated prospectively in the atonning sacrifice of Christ. Because the blood of Christ is literally the seal of the NC and not the OC! Neither Abraham, nor Moses, nor any abstract form of a CoG revealed in different administrations, just the NC! No one has ever been saved through Abraham, Moses or David, but only through Christ, and that means no one will ever take part in any covenental blessing of Christ apart from a covenantal relationship with Christ, but there can never be any covenental relationship with Christ apart from the covenant which he founded, and hence it is clear that salvation is only to be found in the "New Covenant of Grace"! This is true for OT and NT saints, it simply doesn't matter if they participated prospectively or retrospetively... Why is it so hard to understand that the abrahamic covenant never promised salvation but simply a savior who will establish a CoG for our salvation? P.S. thanks Brandon I appriciate your content as always! :)
Nice discussion 🙂 Personally, I would argue that the grace which has its full covenantal manifestation in the New Covenant was real and efficacious prior to Christ's coming, but that this grace had not yet back then reached its full covenantal manifestation. Two arguments I would suggest against the saints prior to Christ's coming having been already under the New Covenant: 1. The fullness of the manifestation of grace which characterises the New Covenant, necessitates that those under the New Covenant are not under the Law. However, from the period between Moses and Christ, all the Israelites, including the Israelite saints, were under the Law. Grace did not remove men like David from being under the Law, but it did nevertheless override what would be the natural implications of being under the Law. 2. Jesus said that he who is least in the Kingdom is greater than . . . not the most apparently righteous Pharisee, but John the Baptist, the greatest true prophet of God prior to Jesus Himself. This suggests to me that the New Covenant puts people in an elevated positional standing that is above what all the Old Testament saints were granted in their day.
Adam, I would encourage you to reconsider your position. You need to better clarify what is meant by "the law." It has many different meanings depending on context. Those who are united to Christ are freed from the law as a covenant of works for eternal life (Adamic covenant). They are freed from the eternal curse (See 2LBC 19.6; ordo salutis). That was true for David and all OT saints. They were however, under "the law" as a typological covenant of works for life and blessing in Canaan (the Mosaic covenant). Jews were not freed from that until the New Covenant was established and the Old was made obsolete (historia salutis). 2. Those comments refer to John the Baptist as representative of the Old Covenant. It does not comment on whether or not he was saved by the New Covenant and how he would therefore relate to the kingdom of heaven in that regard.
The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. God's people are saved (and have always been saved) by way of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. That does not seem to me to be a uniquely "Reformed Baptist" position. I hold to it as a paedobaptist.
I shared your first video, along with the article you included in the comments, on the Dividing Line Chat FB page. Also, I shared the most recent article you posted. I'd like to get your thoughts though. Isn't it possible to take a middle position, wherein OT saints were saved by (or because of) the NT, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were IN the new covenant. Couldn't an argument be made that if Abraham was IN the new covenant, he should have been baptized? (obviously it wasn't instituted yet, but that's sort of the point).
As long as you acknowledge that OT saints were saved by the New Covenant, I won't waste too much time arguing about whether that means they were *in* the New Covenant. But if you want my two cents: The New Covenant is union with Christ. The elect enter the New Covenant in the effectual call. (The effectual call is God making the New Covenant with the elect). In that sense, to be saved *by* the New Covenant is to be *in* the New Covenant. Based on the language of Heb 8, I'm not sure we can say someone was saved by the New Cov, yet they were not part of the New Cov. As for the baptism issue, have you had a chance to read Owen's commentary on Heb 8? He spends a great deal of time addressing exactly how the NC can be effectual and operate invisibly prior to its formal establishment, at which point it is given ordinances for worship (like baptism).
@@brandonadams07 If the New Covenant is union with Christ, does that necessarily mean union with Christ is the New Covenant? (similar to "if all dogs are mammals, does that necessarily mean all mammals are dogs?"). And just as you make the following distinction: OT saints were saved *under* the OT, but not *by virtue* of it, couldn't it also be said OT saints were saved *by virtue* of the NC, while not necessarily being under it? It's been a while. But I read your articles fairly regularly, so I'm sure I've come across it a time or two. But to say it was effectual and operative prior to its formal establishment (which is to say the CoG existed in promise form, right?), is that all that different than saying it was effectual and operative in the way that it saved those who believed in the promise of it (rather than being effectual in making OT saints members of the NC?)
@@chrisctlr Thanks for the question. What I intended to communicate above is that the New Covenant *is* union with Christ, not that the New Covenant is *one kind of* union with Christ. "couldn't it also be said OT saints were saved by virtue of the NC, while not necessarily being under it?" It depends on what you mean by "being under it." If you simply mean they were not under the established New Covenant with its ordinances for worship, etc, then sure. See my previous response. "to say it was effectual and operative prior to its formal establishment (which is to say the CoG existed in promise form, right?), is that all that different than saying it was effectual and operative in the way that it saved those who believed in the promise of it (rather than being effectual in making OT saints members of the NC?)" Again, see previous response. I'm not really sure what difference you're trying to add to what I've already said. If you don't want to say that they were members of the NC, then you will have to explain how the promises of Jer 31:31-34/Heb 8 relate to them. Are they non-covenantal blessings? If not, then how do they receive covenantal blessings apart from the covenant?
Bottom line: as long as someone agrees that 1) All men since the fall are saved by the Covenant of Grace, and 2) Only the New Covenant is the Covenant of Grace (not the Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, nor Davidic), I'm not that concerned with how exactly they express it.
@@brandonadams07 Maybe a better example would have been... God is love, but that doesn't necessarily mean love is God. (or Jesus is God but that doesn't mean we'd say God is Jesus). But I get what you're saying. Good point. It depends on what is meant by "under it" Another good point. If the promises in Jer 31 and Heb 8 are for those in the NC, then how do the promises relate to an Abraham? I guess in the same way that salvation related to Abraham. Was Abraham saved? Yes and no. I hope I'm not coming across as nit-picky. I'm just trying to get your thoughts that's all. I appreciate it.
Why is the term "new covenant" not found in the confessions of Reformed Covenant Theology? It is found in the Bible. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
White, if I'm understanding him, is saying that the New Covenant is 'better' than the Old Covenant because it is more effective in saving people. But Hebrews says the new covenant is "established upon better promises" - the first promise was for material prosperity (Deut 28) and the new one is for eternal life, inheritance of the world, dominion, obedience of the law. Comparing them as if they are for the same purpose is the mistake; one is better because its purpose is better.
Did people who were saved during the Old Covenant have the Law written on their hearts? I want to say that regeneration always means the Law is written on the heart no matter what age you are in. But Jeremiah 31 specifically says The law is written on the heart in the New Covenant. I wanted to get yet your thoughts.
Doug, yes, but it was not *by virtue of* the Old Covenant, but rather *by virtue of* the New Covenant. See this video ua-cam.com/video/jZwIvwsCOlY/v-deo.html
It's both quantity and quality don't see why you are trying to create a problem where there isn't one! Dr. White gave a perfectly sound and balanced explanation between the way ppl are saved in both covenants!
If Abraham was a member of the New Covenant, and had the Holy Spirit, then what was the point of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentacost? Plenty of Old Testaments saints already had the Holy Spirit.
That's a good question. A similar question could be asked, if Abraham was justified (Gen 15:6), what was the point of Christ dying on the cross? Plenty of Old Testament saints were already forgiven and justified. The answer is that they were justified on account of Christ's death and resurrection, but in advance of it. They were justified on "credit" while we are justified on "debit." In like manner, these OT saints had the Holy Spirit on account of Christ's death and resurrection and His pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost, but in advance of it. Here is how Michael Horton explains it: "There are clear passages indicating that ‘the forgiveness of sins’ is unique to the New Covenant (“remember their sins no more”; Jer 31:34)… the writer quotes Jeremiah 31:33, which I have cited above, linking forgiveness and the gift of the Spirit... Kuyper seems to confirm this conclusion. He argued that the energies of the Spirit at Pentecost worked retroactively in the lives of OT saints." Horton, Rediscovering the Holy Spirit, p152ff contrast2.wordpress.com/2018/12/22/hortons-retroactive-new-covenant/ Pentecost also involved a level of outward manifestation of the Spirit unique to that time, as symbolic of the establishment of the New Covenant and the birth of the church.
@@brandonadams07 so that i can Email you an hopefully talk with you about getting a better understanding of 1689Federalism an maybe talk about hiw you feel about Progressive Covenantalism
@@brothermartin1984 Take a look at www.1689federalism.com as well as the posts on my blog (listed by category, included PC) contrast2.wordpress.com You can also submit a question on the 1689 Federalism website and someone may be able to get back to you
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay. ============================================================================================================== Old Covenant Baptism vs. New Covenant Baptism (water vs. Spirit) Water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant system of ritual washing. The Old Covenant priests had to wash before beginning their service in the temple. (Ex. 30:17-30) When Christ was water baptized by His cousin John in the Jordan River, He was under the Old Covenant system. He also only ate certain foods, and wore certain clothes, as prescribed by the 613 Old Covenant laws. Christ was water baptized by John and then the Holy Spirit came from heaven. The order is reversed in the New Covenant. A person receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion, and then believers often declare their conversion to their friends and family through a water baptism ceremony. Which baptism makes you a member of Christ’s Church? The New Covenant conversion process is described below. (Born-again) Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (A person must “hear” the Gospel, and “believe” the Gospel, and will then be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.) Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (See Jer. 31:34 for the New Covenant promise, and 1 John 2:27 for the fulfillment) ============ Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says? What did Peter say below? Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage? Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (See 1 Cor. 12:13) “baptize” KJV Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Water or Holy Spirit?, See Eph. 1-13.) Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (See Eph. 4:1-5) Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Old Covenant ----> New Covenant) How many people have been saved by the Old Covenant water baptism of John the Baptist? Who did John the Baptist say is the greatest Baptist that ever lived in Luke 3:16? What kind of New Covenant baptism comes from Christ? Hebrews 9:10 Old Covenant vs. New Covenant (CSB) They are physical regulations and only deal with food, drink, and various washings imposed until the time of the new order. (ESV) but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. (ESV+) but deal only with R5food and drink and R6various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. (Geneva) Which only stood in meates and drinkes, and diuers washings, and carnal rites, which were inioyned, vntill the time of reformation. (GW) These gifts and sacrifices were meant to be food, drink, and items used in various purification ceremonies. These ceremonies were required for the body until God would establish a new way of doing things. (KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (KJV+) Which stood onlyG3440 inG1909 meatsG1033 andG2532 drinks,G4188 andG2532 diversG1313 washings,G909 andG2532 carnalG4561 ordinances,G1345 imposedG1945 on them untilG3360 the timeG2540 of reformation.G1357 (NKJV) concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. (NLT) For that old system deals only with food and drink and various cleansing ceremonies-physical regulations that were in effect only until a better system could be established. (YLT) only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances-till the time of reformation imposed upon them .
White is missing the point. The only covenant of which Jesus is the mediator is the new covenant. None can be saved outside of Jesus' mediatorship. Abraham was saved because he was under Jesus' mediatorship, and was a recipient of new covenant blessings. He was in the new covenant. The new covenant was applied retroactively to Abraham.
Jesus proves you are correct in John chapter 3 when He told Nicodemus no man can inherit the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God. Nicodemus should have known this, based on the verse below. Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
![What is New Covenant Theology? with Blake White [Q&A]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KKC-oyoYCqI/mqdefault.jpg)
I honestly don't know how and why people would believe you to be ''arrogant'' in any way shape or form. Correcting the ignorance of someone who even admits he does not know a particular position but express that the position is wrong isn't arrogance, it simply is caring for truth.
Very helpful, thanks for the clarity here.
Great explanation and video! Thanks!
The NC is the CoG! Therefore the believing saints of the OC did participate prospectively in the NC/CoG the same way they participated prospectively in the atonning sacrifice of Christ. Because the blood of Christ is literally the seal of the NC and not the OC! Neither Abraham, nor Moses, nor any abstract form of a CoG revealed in different administrations, just the NC!
No one has ever been saved through Abraham, Moses or David, but only through Christ, and that means no one will ever take part in any covenental blessing of Christ apart from a covenantal relationship with Christ, but there can never be any covenental relationship with Christ apart from the covenant which he founded, and hence it is clear that salvation is only to be found in the "New Covenant of Grace"! This is true for OT and NT saints, it simply doesn't matter if they participated prospectively or retrospetively... Why is it so hard to understand that the abrahamic covenant never promised salvation but simply a savior who will establish a CoG for our salvation? P.S. thanks Brandon I appriciate your content as always! :)
Keep these coming. The Church needs your voice brother
Spot on.
Nice discussion 🙂
Personally, I would argue that the grace which has its full covenantal manifestation in the New Covenant was real and efficacious prior to Christ's coming, but that this grace had not yet back then reached its full covenantal manifestation.
Two arguments I would suggest against the saints prior to Christ's coming having been already under the New Covenant:
1. The fullness of the manifestation of grace which characterises the New Covenant, necessitates that those under the New Covenant are not under the Law. However, from the period between Moses and Christ, all the Israelites, including the Israelite saints, were under the Law. Grace did not remove men like David from being under the Law, but it did nevertheless override what would be the natural implications of being under the Law.
2. Jesus said that he who is least in the Kingdom is greater than . . . not the most apparently righteous Pharisee, but John the Baptist, the greatest true prophet of God prior to Jesus Himself. This suggests to me that the New Covenant puts people in an elevated positional standing that is above what all the Old Testament saints were granted in their day.
Adam, I would encourage you to reconsider your position. You need to better clarify what is meant by "the law." It has many different meanings depending on context. Those who are united to Christ are freed from the law as a covenant of works for eternal life (Adamic covenant). They are freed from the eternal curse (See 2LBC 19.6; ordo salutis). That was true for David and all OT saints. They were however, under "the law" as a typological covenant of works for life and blessing in Canaan (the Mosaic covenant). Jews were not freed from that until the New Covenant was established and the Old was made obsolete (historia salutis).
2. Those comments refer to John the Baptist as representative of the Old Covenant. It does not comment on whether or not he was saved by the New Covenant and how he would therefore relate to the kingdom of heaven in that regard.
The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. God's people are saved (and have always been saved) by way of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. That does not seem to me to be a uniquely "Reformed Baptist" position. I hold to it as a paedobaptist.
I shared your first video, along with the article you included in the comments, on the Dividing Line Chat FB page. Also, I shared the most recent article you posted. I'd like to get your thoughts though. Isn't it possible to take a middle position, wherein OT saints were saved by (or because of) the NT, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were IN the new covenant. Couldn't an argument be made that if Abraham was IN the new covenant, he should have been baptized? (obviously it wasn't instituted yet, but that's sort of the point).
As long as you acknowledge that OT saints were saved by the New Covenant, I won't waste too much time arguing about whether that means they were *in* the New Covenant. But if you want my two cents: The New Covenant is union with Christ. The elect enter the New Covenant in the effectual call. (The effectual call is God making the New Covenant with the elect). In that sense, to be saved *by* the New Covenant is to be *in* the New Covenant. Based on the language of Heb 8, I'm not sure we can say someone was saved by the New Cov, yet they were not part of the New Cov.
As for the baptism issue, have you had a chance to read Owen's commentary on Heb 8? He spends a great deal of time addressing exactly how the NC can be effectual and operate invisibly prior to its formal establishment, at which point it is given ordinances for worship (like baptism).
@@brandonadams07 If the New Covenant is union with Christ, does that necessarily mean union with Christ is the New Covenant? (similar to "if all dogs are mammals, does that necessarily mean all mammals are dogs?"). And just as you make the following distinction: OT saints were saved *under* the OT, but not *by virtue* of it, couldn't it also be said OT saints were saved *by virtue* of the NC, while not necessarily being under it?
It's been a while. But I read your articles fairly regularly, so I'm sure I've come across it a time or two. But to say it was effectual and operative prior to its formal establishment (which is to say the CoG existed in promise form, right?), is that all that different than saying it was effectual and operative in the way that it saved those who believed in the promise of it (rather than being effectual in making OT saints members of the NC?)
@@chrisctlr Thanks for the question. What I intended to communicate above is that the New Covenant *is* union with Christ, not that the New Covenant is *one kind of* union with Christ.
"couldn't it also be said OT saints were saved by virtue of the NC, while not necessarily being under it?"
It depends on what you mean by "being under it." If you simply mean they were not under the established New Covenant with its ordinances for worship, etc, then sure. See my previous response.
"to say it was effectual and operative prior to its formal establishment (which is to say the CoG existed in promise form, right?), is that all that different than saying it was effectual and operative in the way that it saved those who believed in the promise of it (rather than being effectual in making OT saints members of the NC?)"
Again, see previous response. I'm not really sure what difference you're trying to add to what I've already said. If you don't want to say that they were members of the NC, then you will have to explain how the promises of Jer 31:31-34/Heb 8 relate to them. Are they non-covenantal blessings? If not, then how do they receive covenantal blessings apart from the covenant?
Bottom line: as long as someone agrees that 1) All men since the fall are saved by the Covenant of Grace, and 2) Only the New Covenant is the Covenant of Grace (not the Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, nor Davidic), I'm not that concerned with how exactly they express it.
@@brandonadams07 Maybe a better example would have been... God is love, but that doesn't necessarily mean love is God. (or Jesus is God but that doesn't mean we'd say God is Jesus). But I get what you're saying.
Good point. It depends on what is meant by "under it"
Another good point. If the promises in Jer 31 and Heb 8 are for those in the NC, then how do the promises relate to an Abraham? I guess in the same way that salvation related to Abraham. Was Abraham saved? Yes and no.
I hope I'm not coming across as nit-picky. I'm just trying to get your thoughts that's all. I appreciate it.
Is 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith holds on to 1689 Federalism?
Why is the term "new covenant" not found in the confessions of Reformed Covenant Theology? It is found in the Bible.
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
White, if I'm understanding him, is saying that the New Covenant is 'better' than the Old Covenant because it is more effective in saving people. But Hebrews says the new covenant is "established upon better promises" - the first promise was for material prosperity (Deut 28) and the new one is for eternal life, inheritance of the world, dominion, obedience of the law. Comparing them as if they are for the same purpose is the mistake; one is better because its purpose is better.
By your flawed logic, nobody in the OT was saved from their sins or eternal hell then🤦🏻♀️
No you are clearly not understanding him or the scripture he is exegeting unfortunately 😞
Did people who were saved during the Old Covenant have the Law written on their hearts? I want to say that regeneration always means the Law is written on the heart no matter what age you are in. But Jeremiah 31 specifically says The law is written on the heart in the New Covenant. I wanted to get yet your thoughts.
Doug, yes, but it was not *by virtue of* the Old Covenant, but rather *by virtue of* the New Covenant. See this video ua-cam.com/video/jZwIvwsCOlY/v-deo.html
It's both quantity and quality don't see why you are trying to create a problem where there isn't one! Dr. White gave a perfectly sound and balanced explanation between the way ppl are saved in both covenants!
What must be done, for more content to be released by brother Adam’s? 🤔
Prayer. I would like to, but life (finances and health) inhibit me.
@@brandonadams07I am praying for you bro
@@adrianjimenez6034 thank you brother. it is needed
If Abraham was a member of the New Covenant, and had the Holy Spirit, then what was the point of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentacost? Plenty of Old Testaments saints already had the Holy Spirit.
That's a good question. A similar question could be asked, if Abraham was justified (Gen 15:6), what was the point of Christ dying on the cross? Plenty of Old Testament saints were already forgiven and justified.
The answer is that they were justified on account of Christ's death and resurrection, but in advance of it. They were justified on "credit" while we are justified on "debit."
In like manner, these OT saints had the Holy Spirit on account of Christ's death and resurrection and His pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost, but in advance of it. Here is how Michael Horton explains it:
"There are clear passages indicating that ‘the forgiveness of sins’ is unique to the New Covenant (“remember their sins no more”; Jer 31:34)… the writer quotes Jeremiah 31:33, which I have cited above, linking forgiveness and the gift of the Spirit... Kuyper seems to confirm this conclusion. He argued that the energies of the Spirit at Pentecost worked retroactively in the lives of OT saints."
Horton, Rediscovering the Holy Spirit, p152ff contrast2.wordpress.com/2018/12/22/hortons-retroactive-new-covenant/
Pentecost also involved a level of outward manifestation of the Spirit unique to that time, as symbolic of the establishment of the New Covenant and the birth of the church.
Doesn't Romans 11:5 show a NT remnant?
What is your Email?
Why?
@@brandonadams07 so that i can Email you an hopefully talk with you about getting a better understanding of 1689Federalism an maybe talk about hiw you feel about Progressive Covenantalism
@@brothermartin1984 Take a look at www.1689federalism.com as well as the posts on my blog (listed by category, included PC) contrast2.wordpress.com You can also submit a question on the 1689 Federalism website and someone may be able to get back to you
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
==============================================================================================================
Old Covenant Baptism vs. New Covenant Baptism (water vs. Spirit)
Water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant system of ritual washing. The Old Covenant priests had to wash before beginning their service in the temple. (Ex. 30:17-30) When Christ was water baptized by His cousin John in the Jordan River, He was under the Old Covenant system. He also only ate certain foods, and wore certain clothes, as prescribed by the 613 Old Covenant laws. Christ was water baptized by John and then the Holy Spirit came from heaven. The order is reversed in the New Covenant. A person receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion, and then believers often declare their conversion to their friends and family through a water baptism ceremony. Which baptism makes you a member of Christ’s Church?
The New Covenant conversion process is described below. (Born-again)
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(A person must “hear” the Gospel, and “believe” the Gospel, and will then be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.)
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(See Jer. 31:34 for the New Covenant promise, and 1 John 2:27 for the fulfillment)
============
Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says?
What did Peter say below?
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text.
Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage?
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (See 1 Cor. 12:13)
“baptize” KJV
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Water or Holy Spirit?, See Eph. 1-13.)
Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (See Eph. 4:1-5)
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Old Covenant ----> New Covenant)
How many people have been saved by the Old Covenant water baptism of John the Baptist?
Who did John the Baptist say is the greatest Baptist that ever lived in Luke 3:16? What kind of New Covenant baptism comes from Christ?
Hebrews 9:10 Old Covenant vs. New Covenant
(CSB) They are physical regulations and only deal with food, drink, and various washings imposed until the time of the new order.
(ESV) but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
(ESV+) but deal only with R5food and drink and R6various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
(Geneva) Which only stood in meates and drinkes, and diuers washings, and carnal rites, which were inioyned, vntill the time of reformation.
(GW) These gifts and sacrifices were meant to be food, drink, and items used in various purification ceremonies. These ceremonies were required for the body until God would establish a new way of doing things.
(KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
(KJV+) Which stood onlyG3440 inG1909 meatsG1033 andG2532 drinks,G4188 andG2532 diversG1313 washings,G909 andG2532 carnalG4561 ordinances,G1345 imposedG1945 on them untilG3360 the timeG2540 of reformation.G1357
(NKJV) concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
(NLT) For that old system deals only with food and drink and various cleansing ceremonies-physical regulations that were in effect only until a better system could be established.
(YLT) only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances-till the time of reformation imposed upon them .
White is missing the point. The only covenant of which Jesus is the mediator is the new covenant. None can be saved outside of Jesus' mediatorship. Abraham was saved because he was under Jesus' mediatorship, and was a recipient of new covenant blessings. He was in the new covenant. The new covenant was applied retroactively to Abraham.
Jesus proves you are correct in John chapter 3 when He told Nicodemus no man can inherit the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God. Nicodemus should have known this, based on the verse below.
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?