Thanks again Paul for all your hard work and contributions. There’s no doubt in my mind that your content will still be gracing artist many many generations from now.
Thanks a bunch for the mentioning "The Shop-Talk of Edgar Degas". A few minutes into the video I became sold on that text so I went to begin reading it, and it has proved incredibly insightful only a dozen or so pages in. Maybe once I finish reading this I'll finish the video haha
Working on a paper for an art history course, and Degas is a major theme -- this video was very helpful in understanding flatness relating to his work!
Thanks so much Paul! 1)Regarding my first comment, the quote from Ingres as retold by Degas has apparently two versions:" Young man, never draw from nature. Always from memory." pg 302 Degas by Himself 2)Regarding the second point about my use of the term inflated 1)"He said of the pictures of J. M. Sert: "Don't worry. They can be deflated" , 2) "At any rate you don't put any air in your pictures," -DEGAS by Paul Lafond 3) I will certainly find the "observe without drawing, and draw without observing" quote as it is somewhere in the pile of books on Degas from library 4) Thanks for making clear what flatness entails; more in terms of the relief (mural or fresco-like). I can see the absolute difference between the two styles when you presented the paintings. Regarding Degas' fondness for the flat I was under the impression it was also the form itself that is to be made flat (more front lit rather than light from the sides?)on figures: "a bias which Degas shares with some other masters of form expressed by linear contours rather than by light and shade or by gradations of color" - Shop Talk (I've now read it 3 times 😉) Regardless, fascinating stuff. Once again, I appreciate your clarification. Some of us are indeed just opening our eyes to the world of art and at times require a guide and it is incredible that you respond to your subscribers!
Enjoyed the talk and it reminds me I'm due to re-read "shop talk". I thought this from F. Benson: …A few of Bensons contemporaries felt that true plain-air painters began and finished a painting outdoors. Benson once laughed at such a purist saying, “the man doesn’t know when to come in out of the rain”. and F. Gifford: …”serious subjects should be largely treated and that attention should not be diverted to details, if the feelings are to be appealed to. Subordination is the great law of Art, as well as Nature, and the moment that balance of parts is lost, unity is destroyed.”
Dear Paul, I just found your channel and find it really insightful.I would love to read shop talk, but I don t seem to find any availability online… Sorry if you said this already, would you mind suggesting where to find it? Thank you so much, Lucia
A mural by Degas would have been quite something. During his apprentice years travelling France and Italy he was interested in cathedrals and frescoes. He appears to have set up his sense of memory from a young age. As an artist in training his notes would poetically describe the landscapes - "Yellow plain, cut corn, mountains grey with night falling at their feet, Hazy mountains truly azure blue, 7 :30, all is grey except the foreground." He once described the colour of a pond as 'the green of an unripe lemon'. What an amazing way to make mental colour notes.
Degas and Ingres are talking about simplicity of rendering , not over egging the pudding. Zuloaga always drew volumes, what Degas was taking about, was simplicity of shapes and forms.
I read a library book in the 1990’s called The painter and the Photograph. It contained many Degas racehorse paintings and the photographs placed next to them were very close, if not identical. I have not been able to find this book nowadays. I ordered one with that title, but it wasn’t it. That book influenced me as an art student and I had a realist painter as a teacher named Mel Leipzig who encouraged me to draw more from life. I wish I had listened, then.
Degas quote re someone referring to him as having lost his mind is quite revealing( in Degas by himself). He quipped that losing ones mind for an artist is not a bad thing as his "mind" had no place in the making of a painting.
Two wonderfully contradictory axioms are: 'You've got to be out of your mind to be a painter," and, (Millet of Rembrandt) "When I stop thinking I stop painting." Synchronize those!
@@PaulIngbretson Something from a Taoist perspective perhaps(always great at contradictions). In martial arts, say Karate, one starts with white belt, then with time the black belt eventually fades back to white. That is to say technique becomes instinctive. Or more likely just a statement made within a certain context with no greater philosophy in mind.
Painting is a translation of the three dimensional to the two. Painters of the past always saw the world as volumes, and space. An artist who is advanced sees the sculptural depth quality of reality. Photography that is flat, has distorted our view of paintings of the past. Degas always saw in volumes as did Ingres.
It is amazing how the holding of a concept in mind affects perception and thus production. You mentioned Degas' proclivity towards shapes, and I'm looking at your lamps and books and considering the interesting negatives shapes therein, taking centre stage in the hierarchy of conscious thought. Had you said Value Patterns, I would be interpreting the scene accordingly. How all the metaphysical attributes of consciousness influences the artists process would be an interesting locus for investigation.
Thanks again Paul for all your hard work and contributions. There’s no doubt in my mind that your content will still be gracing artist many many generations from now.
I appreciate that! Thank you, TMC.
Thanks a bunch for the mentioning "The Shop-Talk of Edgar Degas". A few minutes into the video I became sold on that text so I went to begin reading it, and it has proved incredibly insightful only a dozen or so pages in. Maybe once I finish reading this I'll finish the video haha
Not funny! Lol!
Working on a paper for an art history course, and Degas is a major theme -- this video was very helpful in understanding flatness relating to his work!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks so much Paul!
1)Regarding my first comment, the quote from Ingres as retold by Degas has apparently two versions:" Young man, never draw from nature. Always from memory." pg 302 Degas by Himself
2)Regarding the second point about my use of the term inflated 1)"He said of the pictures of J. M. Sert: "Don't worry. They
can be deflated" , 2) "At any rate you don't put any air in your pictures," -DEGAS by Paul Lafond
3) I will certainly find the "observe without drawing, and draw without observing" quote as it is somewhere in the pile of books on Degas from library
4) Thanks for making clear what flatness entails; more in terms of the relief (mural or fresco-like). I can see the absolute difference between the two styles when you presented the paintings.
Regarding Degas' fondness for the flat I was under the impression it was also the form itself that is to be made flat (more front lit rather than light from the sides?)on figures: "a bias which Degas shares with some other masters of form expressed by linear contours rather than by light and shade or by gradations of color" - Shop Talk (I've now read it 3 times 😉)
Regardless, fascinating stuff. Once again, I appreciate your clarification. Some of us are indeed just opening our eyes to the world of art and at times require a guide and it is incredible that you respond to your subscribers!
Just love the opportunity to rethink things. You're doing the right thing in your attack here.
Brilliant video Maestro Ingbretson! The key of simplifying and editing to the essentials is key to truth!
Hi, Luisa! Best wishes.
Thank you for sharing these talks. They are very insightful and helpful. Always appreciate to hear what you have to say. Take care and God bless.
Thank you! You too!
Enjoyed the talk and it reminds me I'm due to re-read "shop talk". I thought this from F. Benson: …A few of Bensons contemporaries felt that true plain-air painters began and finished a painting outdoors. Benson once laughed at such a purist saying, “the man doesn’t know when to come in out of the rain”. and F. Gifford: …”serious subjects should be largely treated and that attention should not be diverted to details, if the feelings are to be appealed to. Subordination is the great law of Art, as well as Nature, and the moment that balance of parts is lost, unity is destroyed.”
Good ones!
Have you read the art spirit by Robert henri? He says when working from memory the incongruous details fall away
Dear Paul, I just found your channel and find it really insightful.I would love to read shop talk, but I don t seem to find any availability online… Sorry if you said this already, would you mind suggesting where to find it? Thank you so much, Lucia
Lucia, please email me for a free online copy at ingbretson_studio@yahoo.com
@@PaulIngbretson sure thank you!
A mural by Degas would have been quite something. During his apprentice years travelling France and Italy he was interested in cathedrals and frescoes.
He appears to have set up his sense of memory from a young age. As an artist in training his notes would poetically describe the landscapes - "Yellow plain, cut corn, mountains grey with night falling at their feet, Hazy mountains truly azure blue, 7 :30, all is grey except the foreground." He once described the colour of a pond as 'the green of an unripe lemon'. What an amazing way to make mental colour notes.
Yes, yes! Wonderful! Such words can help with holding things in the visual memory.
Thanks again Paul
Sheila
Yup!
Degas and Ingres are talking about simplicity of rendering , not over egging the pudding. Zuloaga always drew volumes, what Degas was taking about, was simplicity of shapes and forms.
Right
I read a library book in the 1990’s called The painter and the Photograph. It contained many Degas racehorse paintings and the photographs placed next to them were very close, if not identical. I have not been able to find this book nowadays. I ordered one with that title, but it wasn’t it. That book influenced me as an art student and I had a realist painter as a teacher named Mel Leipzig who encouraged me to draw more from life. I wish I had listened, then.
Probably Muybridge. Thanks for the words to the wise.
Degas quote re someone referring to him as having lost his mind is quite revealing( in Degas by himself). He quipped that losing ones mind for an artist is not a bad thing as his "mind" had no place in the making of a painting.
Two wonderfully contradictory axioms are: 'You've got to be out of your mind to be a painter," and, (Millet of Rembrandt) "When I stop thinking I stop painting." Synchronize those!
@@PaulIngbretson Something from a Taoist perspective perhaps(always great at contradictions). In martial arts, say Karate, one starts with white belt, then with time the black belt eventually fades back to white. That is to say technique becomes instinctive. Or more likely just a statement made within a certain context with no greater philosophy in mind.
Thanks!
Welcome!
Painting is a translation of the three dimensional to the two. Painters of the past always saw the world as volumes, and space. An artist who is advanced sees the sculptural depth quality of reality. Photography that is flat, has distorted our view of paintings of the past. Degas always saw in volumes as did Ingres.
It is amazing how the holding of a concept in mind affects perception and thus production. You mentioned Degas' proclivity towards shapes, and I'm looking at your lamps and books and considering the interesting negatives shapes therein, taking centre stage in the hierarchy of conscious thought. Had you said Value Patterns, I would be interpreting the scene accordingly. How all the metaphysical attributes of consciousness influences the artists process would be an interesting locus for investigation.
Value patterns is good, very good. Also, per the psychhological aspects: trying to take off from a Jordan Peterson and company video...lol!