1:25 - 10. Do your Research 4:01 - 9. You will not make much money 7:31 - 8. No one is going to steal your brilliant idea 10:26 - 7. Be inspired by other game, do not just copy them 13:49 - 6. Match your theme with the game mechanics 17:44 - 5. Listen to developer and publisher, they want your game to succeed 21:28 - 4. Streamline your game, remove unnecessary aspects (keep it fun) 23:50 - 3. Listen to your playtesters, but don't design by committee (it's your game) 26:47 - 2. Design the game your way, there is no one way to do it 28:09 - 1. Play test your game along the way! (use honest people who aren't afraid to hurt your feelings) 33:37 - BONUS: Be prepared to be criticized
I'm going to throw in an 11 in here: "Get some Distance from your game every once in a while" Sometimes when you are constantly working on something (art,book,game,project) you lose perspective. You don't see mistake, faults or even perfections anymore. It's just one big noise of 'design' 'colours' or 'words'. So when you finish your game, put in on a shelf and leave it for at least a month, (maybe more maybe less) and then replay it. You will be amazed how much a game can change after for the better after doing this. BTW some people call it; "Just letting the pot simmer :)"
+Mythoscope very smart! Music producers use this a lot. I try to add a little to my game every night because it is so fun but i know i need some distance sometimes to get a better perspective.
Dolian Loss Its hard to stop working on something you're passionate about ^^ I tend to do this with my writing but I've learned that leaving it for even just a few days will help better my articles.
Mythoscope YEEEEES DONT GET AND ARTISTS BLOCK only work on it when you are pationite about it!!! You will find that you will have more and greater ideas if you have time to proccess and you are getting excitted about it!
This is great advice. Put it out of mind for a short time, hard as that is, maybe a week or so, then come back to it with fresh eyes. You will see the warts more clearly.
Guys, I'm from Singapore and have just gotten into playing board games with my son - it's a fabulous bonding experience and we've even made a couple of games. I just wanna say thank you for putting the time and effort into making a video such as this one - the advise was great, I'm putting a theme to my game right now as advised, and you know what? You're right - If it's gonna bring some happiness to some family somewhere, that should be the joy in game creation first and foremost. I usually do not comment on videos on UA-cam, but this is the first one. Thank you and kudos for the advise :)
"We live in a special era of history where you can type any question... and get thousands of unrelated, unhelpful results that brings you no closer to the answer to your question, unless your question is so unoriginal so it has been asked repeatedly by others."
20 years ago search engines were better. You could find people talking about things in blogs. Personal blogs. But between paid search priorities and governments meddling to turn Internet into an ideological platform, searches stopped working and deliver trash. For example, many years ago I heard a melody called Gravity by an Ukranian singer called Zlata Ognevich. I did not remember her name. So I tried to search for Ukranian singers. Guess what, search engines wanted to push war news and political comments. And probably music with propaganda. Zlata is quite famous as she has been in Eurovision shows. You want entertainment. Internet delivers politics. Yuck!
Story Time: I am moronic enough. I am that guy who didn't playtest his game. One day I stumbled across a great little self-pub site called The Game Crafter, which held game design contests. The current contest ended in less than a month, but I decided to enter it anyways, because I am speedy at graphic design, and because I am an idiot. I knew as little as anyone could know about game design. I hadn't watched a single podcast, and didn't play games much myself. I'd never seen a prototype game, nor had I heard of any of the standard game mechanics. Not to be stopped by little things like everything, I put together this great little sailing and trading sim game that actually won an award for best artwork- but sank like a rock when it came to gameplay scores. Perplexed, I bought myself a copy and played it with a friend. It was the worst thing I had ever played. "How could I have known this?" I asked myself, lamenting my inability to calculate whether a game would be fun or not. I am filled with shame when I consider just how long it took for me to realize that successful game designers don't have a magic power of entertainment foresight- They just play the game before they try to publish it.
In retrospect, I'm shocked it even made the finalists list before falling out of the running. With zero playtesting, I had no right to get 63 out of 85 possible points.
@@arifaltundal5933 I'm now a senior designer on Legends of Runeterra at Riot Games. Previously worked at EA, Blizzard (Hearthstone, and worked on the game Faeria at Abrakam. Coincidence?
About the copyright "issue": I completely agree that it's a waste of time to file for a copyright. If it's such a great game and the IP becomes big enough for that to be a problem, then it's something the publisher will handle. Also, there's nothing magic about a copyright. Everything you come up with is already your IP, so the idea that you need a copyright to "protect" your IP is simply wrong. A copyright just shifts the onus onto the "infringer" instead of the "owner". If you have any substantial amount of proof that you were working on it earlier (which, assuming you were discussing with others, you would easily have), then you aren't at risk of having your idea stolen. Finally, for those paranoid people, I'll include a tip from the music industry: Once you've written the rules, or anything else you think you need to "protect", just print them out, and mail them to yourself. When the letter arrives, never open it. That way, if there is ever contention about whether it's your idea, you have a sealed, dated copy of your idea that proves when you were working on it.
I have watched this video several times and at different stages of my first time designing experience. I take a new thing from it each time. Thanks guys!
I think this is the most enjoyable Dice Tower top 10 I've seen so far. It sounds like you guys talked it over before taping so you all had something to contribute to each entry, instead of each having your own lists and disagreeing with the each other. Very smooth, very funny, keep it coming!
Thanks for the awesome tips! And these don't just apply to boardgames but ALL games, including PC/console. By the way you may want to correct #2 in the summary list at the end, it should be "Design the game your way, there is no "one way" to do it "
This video has given me a great idea for a game - chiropractors operating steam rollers in an arena. Actually, I think if you were run over by a steam roller, you'd probably need a chiropractor.
Eh. I'd like some Top Ten Tips for Game Designers from people who make their living designing games. I mean, these tips are okay - but it reminds me of the different advice people get making digital games because they're not sure what they're asking. You can make your own games, you don't have to just go work in some AAA studio, unless you want to do that. I think the physical game space can use a lot of the attitude that's going on in the indie video games scene. It's fine if The Dice Tower wouldn't like it! Keep it rough! Don't polish all the character out of it! There's nothing wrong with self-publishing!
My quote on playtesting: Your first draft of your game is art: Coming up with some cool idea inspired by your muse and putting your own stamp - a piece of your own soul - into its shape and style, flow and function. Every draft after should be science: Seeing how it worked, gauging how well that compares with the ideals you set out, cutting as necessary, and testing your new hypothesis for "what will make this game great" in as many blind studies as possible for maximum validity.
Thanks guys! Tom I'd like it alot if you would make a video about your own experience designing "Nothing Personal". What worked right away, what changed, why it changed... stuff like that. And keep the top ten coming!
Best thing for play testing that I've found is a local game store that encourages people to bring a game to play. Bring your game and you can start a pickup playtest with total strangers who, as gamers, are savvy to what you're doing.
I agree with number 9. I am creating a board game that I want to play and share with friends and more. It is not about the money, I just want to bring some laughs for an hour or two. Thanks for the video, very helpful.
Love your videos, as a new player of board games they've helped a lot with which games I should try. By the way I love you guys playing around, joking and talking that's why I watch your videos over others on here! Keep up the good work!
Best top ten list yet. I'm taking notes Vassal! When I meet you at a con with my game someday, I'll look you in the eye and "Yes, yes I did playtest it... people hated it at first. They don't hate it anymore."
I wish I could Like this more than one time. Simply the best common sense list for would-be designers I've seen. If you're working on a game design, set aside a half hour for this, it's so very much worth your time.
I just want to say that I absolutely love these videos. Thank you :D Also: 'The best way to make a small fortune in the Gaming Industry is to start with a large one.' HAH. Perfect, thank you
Cool. I can't wait for the next list. I don't normally play board games, but I stumbled into channel and their enthusiasm has me convinced to try some. Now I'll know where to start.
great video :) but one thing though, i could really understand why some people would consider trying to publish, art design (pay someone to do this if you cant), game design all by them selves. because not everyone thinks of their game like "it is my baby, and i made it" or "you are going to steel my ideas" , some people just want to be on the market and learn how to do all of this to get a beautiful sellable product and knowing where to go to. I think also, if you give your game to a publisher and they do the artwork for you, i mean that is taking away the fun of the process of producing a game...
you should do a detailed video about things to look at when a game designer play-test his game and how to deal with it: duration, downtime between turns , multi-player solitaire syndrom, breaking possibilities...etc...
Is it acceptable to borrow mechanics from other games if your combination of those mechanics is original? Even if they are very popular and immediately recognizable designs?
Yes. It is encouraged. No game mechanic is wholly original. It’s why you’re allowed to have multiple first person shooters and they’re all different. You CANNOT copyright a mechanic. Steal to your heart’s content, just make sure you add your own twists to make the game as a whole original and not a 1 to 1 copy. This is what we were told by instructors for our Game Design courses. You can see my projects on the channel Invader Jay Dev
I've gotten so many ideas from watching the Tower's videos. Hearing their opinions and what they like in a game and want to see more often in other games. Why not be the one to make that game? Do I think I'm a capable designer? No. Not at all. Actually the opposite. I feel like I'm below average when it comes to a "designer's brain". But I really want to explore some of the games in my head. I want to make the games that I want to see made. So here's to making it work, somehow. Be seeing you! ;)
My interest in game design came from attempting to "tweak" and "improve" others' games. It came to a point where I might as well completely recreate it, form scratch.
Great topic and presentation guys. We were distilling Schnapps all day and it took us 20 minutes to figure out that we weren't watching CSI Miami. :) Now back to play testing.
I love number "two". It's true that there is no manual for game designing and we should come up with our own way. We should certainly read books about game designing, but if you read great game design books, they also suggest you to use your own way.
These videos are a real treat! You Three guys are so funny, and you know what you are talking about! I really your reviews, but these series of videos are one notch higher on the fun-scale..
I know this is an old video, but thank you guys so much for this video. I already knew most of it, but there are still small tidbits that will help in a huge way. So, again, thank you.
Very good list. Regarding #4, I believe it was Alan Moon who said, "When you think your game is done, remove part of it." A good writer knows the value of editing: any piece of writing can be reduced 30% without losing value. Streamlining a game design is a similar process. Tighter is better.
You guys are great! I randomly came across this video and I just so happen to be in the process of designing a game. Thank you for these tips! I will take every tip with me in this venture of creating a fun game!!!
A quote from Neil Gaiman that has stood me in good stead when designing games relates to #3: When your readers tell you something is wrong with the writing, they're usually right. When they tell you they know how to FIX it? They're usually wrong.
Blind play-testing makes sure that the rules cover everything in the game. Your play-test groups can forget that "obvious" rule isn't actually in the rules. Their assumptions on how to play the game aren't shipped with the box.
I have a board and a table game. I have a generic basic game parts and board and would like to make it more professional looking ? Any suggestions or where do I start?
You guys should have a Top Ten video on Playtesting Tips for Board Games and I think it could be a good video because not many people understand what goes into the Playtesting of a board game as it is being designed. Just a thought.
Small error: #2 is "Design your game your way/Design the game you want", but the closing crawl that lists all 10 entries says "Match theme to mechanics" again. Great list though, lots of fun to watch!
I am not really able to play tcg and ccgs, rpgs etc with others. How often should you get dealt a card from your hand or the deck. Say if you got 2 or 7 cards initially, do you get more cards if you do dam to opponent. I can't figure out how to ration out cards. If anyone could help that would be great
I'm designing my first game and I'm REALLY struggling with #4 ( streamlining) at the moment, but at least I'm following #1 (play testing) so I realize where I need to make cuts because in practice...it can become too intensive and lose it's original lighthearted appeal. You never know unless you try though. Thank for these tips and many other videos that have helped me...such as "Top Ten Annoying Rules in Board Games." I think I had around 6. Now I'm rethinking-or at least tweaking-a few :P Thank you!
Streamlining is about reducing bureaucracy. Imagine you want player to manage 100 people inside a starship (soldiers, engineers, flight deck, etc) but they need to sleep. You could add a tracker for each one of them to monitor how tired they are. That is 100 trackers. Is that fun? It takes forever to update. You realize that since they sleep 8 hours and work 8 hours that is 1/3 of people actually working. So no need of trackers. But imagine you want to make them work overtime to 12 hours and they will get tired and productivity gets hurt ling term. It means you have a cost. It is equivalent of having less fully productive workers. So at most you need a table with costs and monitor one indicator, not 100 trackers. Unless some thing fun happens to each worker, having 100 trackers will not be fun. Is that table fun or should we get rid of it? If these workers move across the ship and the ship is attacked, workers may get wounded. So you feel 100 trackers inside the ship would be fun but it is not. You only need to know how many people are there at a certain time. So you model it, you use pawns to see how many will be at a certain moment of the day and register the number in a table. Is it fun to use that table? If not, get rid of the table and reduce to an average number. Is it still fun or do we get rid of tracking workers? Starship Captains reduced worker management to a queue. But the core mechanic is to handle that queue. Is it fun? Not really. There are pirates but combat is reduced to a damage token when you find one. Is that fun? No. So may be as a game for children it will work. But for advanced gamers it will not. The captain is dead is a game that has only 7 workers. but you need to use your smarts to manage their actions and skills to do something fun and meaningful. It is way better than Starship Captains.
Anybody else noticed, in the final list nr2 was not "design the game your way, there is no one way to do it", but a repeat of nr5 "match your theme and mechanics"? BTW great list, and yes I'm paying attention :)
Clone Wars is a pandemic game that has enought "do it your way" to make a fan of Clone Wars to fall in love and consider it the definitive Clone Wars game. It was made with love. And you can tell.
One question I have (especially for Tom): what is your best advice for co-designing a game? I know Nothing Personal was co-designed with Steve Avery (aka Capt. TankTop), which is a great way to diversify the playtesting (I playtested Nothing Personal in its first stages at ConnCon a few years ago). Tom: is there anything you learned or any advice about co-designing a game you'd like to share?
I've collaborated on every game I've ever worked on (and I'm currently doing some work with Fantasy Flight Games right now). If you'd like, I could share some tips.
First, agree on a design goal. This is the most fundamental aspect of making the collaboration work. Start by defining what type of experience you want the game to create for the players. Be as specific as possible as to what you want the players to *feel* as they play your game. Some goals in the past on recent projects have been, "Knife-edge contemplative tension where any misstep in strategy feels like it could destroy you instantly" and, "Explosive triumph that makes players feel like high-fiving each other". Once you know the type of experience you're designing for, a lot of the arguments melt away that are based on personal preference. For example, just yesterday I was working on a collaborative game and arguing for a mechanic that would allow you OR your teammate to pay an extra cost in order to power up your effect. I argued it was better to give you the option to power up the effect yourself in order to create additional sinks for resources, to help make sure players never ended up with too many extra resources they couldn't use. However, when we referred to the design goal, I realized that this made the cooperative feeling the mechanic was supposed to create feel optional rather than essential. Your teammate wasn't supposed to feel essential in this game. So we moved to put ways to get rid of resources elsewhere and made sure this mechanic was all about players working together for those high-five moments. That's a good place to start.
Second, if you're working with someone you respect, agree that you'll only seek to put things in the game that everyone is happy with (in terms of serving the design goal, not just personal preference). This way the final product feels good to everyone. While not always possible to make work, this prevents a lot of lazy design and ensures that you strive to find solutions to everyone's issues. The quality usually increases dramatically. Third, if you've reached an intractable impasse - passion always wins in the short term. Whoever cares more about the issue in question gets the short term victory. Often you'll get into situations where one person thinks path A is probably correct and another person passionately loves path B or hates A. Unless you're working with volatile people who get obsessive about everything (why are you collaborating with these people again?) go with the more passionate side on that topic winning the short term argument. That way you get your way when it really matters. Fourth, move to playtesting as soon as possible. Feeling how things play in the actual world dissolves a lot of theorycrafting arguments. This is where the "passion rules" third step often gets overturned. Make sure the designers all play the game - as the perspective from in the gamer's hotseat is different than the designer's armchair. Fifth, silent testing wins the knockout. If you STILL can't agree on something, make sure you get final data by having players play the game and read the rulebook without any help or guidance or word spoken from you. Observe them playing. This usually resolves the last conflicts. If it's still too close to call, it's probably not a big deal and could go either way. Orbit back to third, passion wins.
Fantastic video. Kinda funny that Malifaux 2nd Edition is being playtested and i find many of the points here relate greatly to the playtesting that i'm doing at the moment. I can now continue to playtest Malifaux, but with this shift in paradigm. Thank you so much, can't wait to hear more tips in terms of the gaming industry.
About 15 years ago my neice had a school assignment to design a game. I don't even remember what class it was for, but it was 6th or 7th grade. She asked me to help and we co-designed a really poor game based on the 2nd Harry Potter book. It involved moving around the board with dice to go to classrooms to collect clues and gain 'lessons' so you could learn spells to defeat various monsters. The game was played in stages and the mechanics were very klunky. We both learned a lot from that.
Hii friends .i have one doubt Can we repaint game and character of game and publish it in other language with same mechanism . Is there any copyright issue for that from designer or developer of that game?
Thankyou so much! Im a big board gamer and i have to make a original game for math class! So im gonna go above and beyond and print pieces and other things! With this tips i will win!
The theme one seems hard to do if it is a universal system. I have many many different themes I want to use the same game system for. Would you prefer multiple differently marketed games that all use the same system?
I have a question, when you say do your research and play lots of games, how many different games would you say is a good number to shoot for? I have about 100-120 under my belt would that be good?
Thanks, this was helpful (since I too have been working.. & playtesting.. on a game I have been designing! Looking forward to seeing an updated Top 10 Essential Games List!
8 says no one is going to completely copy your game, exactly the same. 7 says don't copy someone else's game, exactly the same, or just facelift it. It says to borrow components and aspects and mechanics from many different games to work well together, because nothing is truly original. Even the wheel was based off a log.
Number 8 means not to be afraid to spread word about your game idea while you are still developing it to get more input from the community. It is highly unlikely that there is some "Evil Publisher" surfing the net searching for good ideas to copy and publish befor the original designer can. Number 7 means not to rip of games that are already published and successful just to cash in on the money.
People who would steal someone else's idea would probably go for the finished game that sold at least some copies instead of the random dude on some random board game forum sharing some random unfinished idea that may or may not be awful
#8 is referring to people stealing your idea before publishing. No one is going to steal some unproven idea from the Internet. Therefore you don't need to pay money to protect it. #7 is referring to popular published games. Don't just copy Monopoly with a different theme or 7 Wonders with a different theme. People will reject it if it's just a bad knockoff.
Sounds interesting... Is the idea that you'd alternate between exploring the dungeon and fighting off waves with towers? Maybe exploring the dungeon triggers the waves; you delve too deeply, and awaken the Big Bad, then have to run back to town to fight it off with the towers? Then, back to mop up the lesser evils that stayed behind, and pick up treasure that you can use to beef your towers... I'd play that...
Good stuff: But a lot of your advice seemed centered around getting one's designs accepted/developed by other game companies (Hasbro, GMT, MMP, Wizards of Coast, etc.. to name a few). But, it seems to me, a lot of indie publishers these days (including me) are going the kickstarter route to avoid the piddling 3% royalties (or whatever small amount they want to rip designers off these days. Is that why #9 is expect a low return or profit?). I'd rather start my own company, which I fully plan on doing. I'll do the work myself, prototype when the play-testing stage is near, do a kickstarter campaign after the playtest period, then outsource the publishing to whatever printers (if the kickstarter campaign is successful and raises the needed funds). By the way, where can one find blind play-testers (you all make that sound so easy)? I agree that game rules need to be streamlined, however complexity in-and-of-itself is not a bad thing. There are plenty of deep strategy games with rule-books that literally are books: ASL 2nd edition (185 pages sections A through E), D&D 2nd ed (252 & 192 pages, the DM manual and the player's handbook), Champions 4th ed (70 pages), AWAW (a world at war 2013 edition, 116 pages), SFB (starfleet battles, the captain's edition 1990, 224 page). All these games were (are still?) huge successes. I'm from the deep strategy game era (I play-tested the original ASL back in '85 for AH), and crunched my teeth on games of the "book." Conversely, euro-era games like twilight imperium (43 pages), Bios megafauna (11 pages), Pax Porfiriana (28 pages) are nothing when it comes to rules ... I'd rate those three 1, .5, and .2 on a 1 to 10 difficulty scale when it comes to rule's complexity, whereas "games of the book" are easily 9 to 10. Those three are great games btw. However, I am appreciative & well aware of the fact that since the "eurogame" invasion of the late 90's the trend has been toward simpler (dumbed-down in some sense) games. There's nothing wrong with that (it's just where the market is shifting I suppose .... though there is still a smaller? market for the deep "games of the book" that I mentioned above ... ASL is certainly still alive and kicking these days through MMP and the dozens of TPPs it's spawned, as well as D&D via wizards of the coast .. both owned by Hasbro). I've been designing a dozen or so different games over the past few years now simultaneously, instead of one at a time. The reasoning there was that I wanted to be able to kickstart several games at once, so my company could start with more than one title. Unfortunately, I realized I'm not going to accomplish that goal (some are harder & are taking much more time to complete than I anticipated). I'm working on a family card game (for one) that is closest to finishing. I'm hoping to finish it & start play-test before this year is up. My opinion is that play-testing should not take long on this particular game since it's very simple & straightforward, but as I have no experience (other than the ASL play-test I was involved in back in '85) I can't really say for sure. A couple of my other game designs are "deep" strategy games (a 4x space game, and a 4x fantasy game). The maps are completed for the space game; the fantasy map is maybe 80% done. The rules & charts are probably 40% ish done for both. The counter artwork is really tough, and that is the single hardest & longest part of game design (in my opinion). Last year I plunked down $1200 for adobe cs6, so I've been transferring my scaler & raster art (from gimp & inkscape) into Ps & illustrator. I'm used to gimp/inkscape for art, but the learning curve for ai is a bit steep as I'm finding out. Anyway, that's another point, I'm actually doing my own design/development & art (instead of hiring an artist), but art just takes so long. As far as the rules go, I have no problem with either theme or mechanics. In fact, both seem to flow seemlessly & easily from my mind (I don't know if that's good or bad :) ). I much prefer doing rules & design over art. I don't mind doing art, in fact I enjoy it, but it just takes so damned long to do well .... (my map is certainly not the cheapo "10 days in the americas" art that you guys commented on in a previous you tube .. I think it was the 10 most disappointing podcast). I think the main problem that I have (other than the length of time it takes to do art) is that my rule books (at least for the two deeper strategy games) are unnecessarily bloated with description (as opposed to unnecessary rules ... though they may certainly suffer from that too; I don't know at this point. It's hard to see these things when one is so close to the fire). I've been a gamer since I was 10ish, and I've noticed there are two broad categories of rules: descriptive and mechanical. ASL is the best example of mechanical rules (and is typical for most standard strategy board games); all rules are 100% black and white, and meant to be followed as-is like the law. D&D is the best example of the descriptive format where the rules are literally a description of how to accomplish things (guidelines of sorts) rather than law. My game designs started as a brainstorm: I just jotted down everything I wanted to include in the game. Then, I "converted" the brainstorm doc to rules, but it's turning out to be more descriptive than mechanical (these are strategy board games not RPGs), thus the end result is "rules bloat." I'm not 100% sure how I need to fix that (keep in mind, this is my first attempt at game design, I'm not a professional game designer). My thinking is that I need to streamline somehow during the "editing" phase after I finish the base rule version (version 1.0). After that, I'm thinking that I'm going to need to rely on the play-testers quite a bit to convert the basic version 1.0 to whatever finished version (1.x) after play-testing stage is done (and during it as well). My deep games, no doubt, are going to need at least a year of play-testing. damn that was a long post! I tend to ramble sometimes :) I'll cut out here & spare you guys from any more of my hot air. It's bedtime, take it easy guys, rk
+Richard Kindel Hey man I hope that your projects are going well as I myself am creating a board game, graphic novel, and videogame at once. Being a one man band is nice and all, but working with 7 others on a videogame I have learned the good and the bad. Others input are very essential as sadly a human isn't always 100 percent right. haha I am a professional artist and designer so i leave the coding to my peers. The only problem I have run into is having people on a team who don't easily see your vision. This has caused tons of friction and much time wasted during our development meetings. I'll bring my rant to a point. If they are taking to long find at least 1 other person who you can undoubtedly trust to help you out with the labor. Hope you completed your games I'd like to know!
Thanks guys. I am trying to make a 3D Simulation game to help teach First Aid. Do you have any good hints and tips I should use for the learning process or any resources I can look at. I am developing it using Unity which I have never used before so it will be a nice challenge for me.
As an amateur game designer myself, I agree with 9 of the 10 pieces of advice. The only item I don't know about is the one about publishers - that is, I've never bothered to get any of my games to the market and therefore have no idea what it's like to work with someone who wants to publish a game I've done. Otherwise, I think all designers should pay extremely close attention to what these boys are saying!!!
Hi Tom, so taccording to your example: if 2000 copies of my game is sold, and I get USD 2.5 / game, it means a total income of USD 5K. So if I have a co-designer and 1-2 graphic designers, etc. then I earn USD 1K-2K in the end. Is it correct? I understand that I should not design games for the money, but taking the 100+ (or even 1000+ ...) work hours into consideration it sounds a little bit disheartening...
As artists, our souls often go into our work & being aware upfront about the current reality of limited monetary compensation for the efforts, grants the artist a clearer perspective of their true goals. Many artists historically speaking, aren't recognized for their merits until a time after their passing regardless of the medium. H.R.Geiger being a modern-day exception, & Philip K. Dick as an example.
+Miko Peter Yep, that's the reality. And if you get your game signed to a publisher, it is standard to get a $1,000 advance on royalties. Same monetary result, without the risk and work of production and sales (the publisher handles that). Less control for you over the final product, of course, but having an outside developer working on your game (publishers usually have them) makes your game better. And you can already be working on the next game design while the publisher is handling production and sales!
About the ripping off/seeing what's out there point: If you're really worried about it, one way is to first write down your own ideas and play around with them and THEN go see what other people have done that could make yours better too. That way you at least know what you came up on your own and what you got from others. It's a more conscious decision then, I guess. Not that it's necessarily needed but anyway. Also you might end up wasting your time if you do that because it's very possible that your original idea is going to either suck or be something that's already happened. Unless you just want to try figuring it out on your own as an excercise. (Also of course there is such a thing as subconsciously ripping people off. I can't remember what it's called, source amnesia? Anyway so you might have already ripped something off before you did it consciously.) That only goes for specific stuff, though, I think. I mean if you haven't played anything beyond like monopoly then you're probably not ready to even start. Also I was reminded of writers. You just can't be a good writer if you don't read. Maybe you can be a good fantasy author without first reading other fantasy books, but you should still go look into other people's fantasy books before publishing your work.
Insta fav, I got the theme since the very beginning, I was just searching for a way to implement it (visual novel, comic, game etc.). Making a Board Game out of it might be a good idea, and with this tips I have a better understanding and direction.
This is very cool. I am designing my first game right now and have even built a prototype and am play testing it right now. I sure would like to know how to get it published beyond The Game Crafter though.
Alright guys, a Dungeon Crawler and Tower defense with a dash of pen and paper with a pinch of dungeons and dragons with a VERY tiny mix of Co-op. With the theme of two dungeons in between a small village. Is that good?
I love your "top 10" lists, but this is one of the best lists you guys have ever put out. I'm working with some decent game concepts, but am really just discovering how to do this.... it's a tough walk through the jungle. Thanks guys...
a popular game reviewer, simply liked your video, thus a large amount of subscriptions see that "like" and visits the video, he doesn't do that as often as you might think, so when he does it, it gets exposure, just as that. And he's right, was a great video,. :)
I have this idea for the mute designer play test where i give my game to a group of players and say see if you can play it and watch and try to keep silent...
I'm in the midst of designing my first game, this was a very helpful list and I intend to do everything on it, I'm just finding it hard to gather the information needed to succeed such as developer contacts and producer contacts. any idea what the best approach would be? the game is still very much in developmental stages but having this info would be a huge benefit
That is the eternal problem of an artist, finding reliable contacts to deliver a product. Normally fairs/conventions or contacts of your friends are the best ways to connect. for a job.
Actually anyone working on a video game development team would probably take every single one of these 10 tips to heart. Especially independent developers with small or single person teams. The concept of designing a great game isn't limited by the medium.
Help me out here. How did Angry Joe send you here? From where? And who is he? I searched for an angry joe, but saw nothing that mentioned the Dice Tower.
i found this video very helpful, i've always had this kinda dream of designing my own games in the future but this video has helped a lot, thanks guys :)
Because there are even more that don't. You're just looking at the successful ones that end up getting talked about. Go to Kickstarter and see all of the tabletop games active right now, the vast majority do really badly.
ince i dont have the right to get an academic background in games, this is me: - Trained by the book by Flint Dille & John Zuur Platten - Have experience with DAZ Studio - Knows how to make detailed and easy-to-understand game-documents - Knows how to write a screenplay - Always aim for originality and strenght - Have experience with the Electron and GECK Toolsets - Is currently developing games with Game Maker 8 - First two experimental games released recieved mixed to positive reception
If you're in the need of basic modern board game design tips, check out the Game Design for Dummies entry at my blog. The URL is my first and last name as one word. Much more there too :)
That is a pretty good list guys... lots of common sense to be seen in this video. Finding something you really enjoy doing is the first ingredient for recipe for success.
Sorry I dont wanna sound but like a noob but I am so I cant help it, but what is the difference between a board game designer and a publisher and how do I or what do I need to do to become one or the other
The designer of a game is the person who comes up with the game itself. They very carefully put together the mechanics, design the gameplay. basically craft the experience you and your friends will have at the table. The publisher is in charge (somewhat) of the theme of the game, the components, the packaging, and distribution. To make a long story short, the designer crafts the idea, and the publisher sells it.
Good advice. I've found it's easier to design game mechanics around a theme as opposed to vice versa. Once you've found your theme, then it becomes 'how can I develop mechanics to facilitate what I want this game to be or to do'. I second point #4. Streamline the game, cut out anything that slows the game down too much. Video games have the luxury of having code take care of the math and configuring where as most board games have to do it manually, this puts a strain on the players and slows down play. I quit playing Dying Light (PS4) because there was waaay too much crafting involved. I craft a weapon and it breaks after 1.5 zombie kills. Then I have to scavenge for 45 mins for parts to build another weapons to kill another 1.5 zombies. This type of game play broke the immersion and bored me to death, easy quit there. The same applies to board games.
1:25 - 10. Do your Research
4:01 - 9. You will not make much money
7:31 - 8. No one is going to steal your brilliant idea
10:26 - 7. Be inspired by other game, do not just copy them
13:49 - 6. Match your theme with the game mechanics
17:44 - 5. Listen to developer and publisher, they want your game to succeed
21:28 - 4. Streamline your game, remove unnecessary aspects (keep it fun)
23:50 - 3. Listen to your playtesters, but don't design by committee (it's your game)
26:47 - 2. Design the game your way, there is no one way to do it
28:09 - 1. Play test your game along the way! (use honest people who aren't afraid to hurt your feelings)
33:37 - BONUS: Be prepared to be criticized
Thank you so much XD
thank god a summary
Eduardo Loureiro Jr. you must be an angel.
Good job. They should have done that in the description and give you a $5 coupon to coolstuff ;
My god thank you so much
I'm going to throw in an 11 in here:
"Get some Distance from your game every once in a while"
Sometimes when you are constantly working on something (art,book,game,project) you lose perspective. You don't see mistake, faults or even perfections anymore. It's just one big noise of 'design' 'colours' or 'words'. So when you finish your game, put in on a shelf and leave it for at least a month, (maybe more maybe less) and then replay it. You will be amazed how much a game can change after for the better after doing this.
BTW some people call it; "Just letting the pot simmer :)"
+Mythoscope very smart! Music producers use this a lot. I try to add a little to my game every night because it is so fun but i know i need some distance sometimes to get a better perspective.
Dolian Loss Its hard to stop working on something you're passionate about ^^ I tend to do this with my writing but I've learned that leaving it for even just a few days will help better my articles.
Mythoscope YEEEEES DONT GET AND ARTISTS BLOCK only work on it when you are pationite about it!!! You will find that you will have more and greater ideas if you have time to proccess and you are getting excitted about it!
This is great advice. Put it out of mind for a short time, hard as that is, maybe a week or so, then come back to it with fresh eyes. You will see the warts more clearly.
Guys, I'm from Singapore and have just gotten into playing board games with my son - it's a fabulous bonding experience and we've even made a couple of games. I just wanna say thank you for putting the time and effort into making a video such as this one - the advise was great, I'm putting a theme to my game right now as advised, and you know what? You're right - If it's gonna bring some happiness to some family somewhere, that should be the joy in game creation first and foremost. I usually do not comment on videos on UA-cam, but this is the first one. Thank you and kudos for the advise :)
"We live in a special era of history where you can type any question... and get thousands of unrelated, unhelpful results that brings you no closer to the answer to your question, unless your question is so unoriginal so it has been asked repeatedly by others."
Meta
That sums up reddit.
20 years ago search engines were better. You could find people talking about things in blogs. Personal blogs. But between paid search priorities and governments meddling to turn Internet into an ideological platform, searches stopped working and deliver trash.
For example, many years ago I heard a melody called Gravity by an Ukranian singer called Zlata Ognevich.
I did not remember her name. So I tried to search for Ukranian singers. Guess what, search engines wanted to push war news and political comments. And probably music with propaganda.
Zlata is quite famous as she has been in Eurovision shows.
You want entertainment. Internet delivers politics. Yuck!
How does AI impact this? We're in a new era now
Story Time: I am moronic enough. I am that guy who didn't playtest his game.
One day I stumbled across a great little self-pub site called The Game Crafter, which held game design contests. The current contest ended in less than a month, but I decided to enter it anyways, because I am speedy at graphic design, and because I am an idiot. I knew as little as anyone could know about game design. I hadn't watched a single podcast, and didn't play games much myself. I'd never seen a prototype game, nor had I heard of any of the standard game mechanics.
Not to be stopped by little things like everything, I put together this great little sailing and trading sim game that actually won an award for best artwork- but sank like a rock when it came to gameplay scores. Perplexed, I bought myself a copy and played it with a friend. It was the worst thing I had ever played. "How could I have known this?" I asked myself, lamenting my inability to calculate whether a game would be fun or not. I am filled with shame when I consider just how long it took for me to realize that successful game designers don't have a magic power of entertainment foresight- They just play the game before they try to publish it.
In retrospect, I'm shocked it even made the finalists list before falling out of the running. With zero playtesting, I had no right to get 63 out of 85 possible points.
If it was that bad then it just makes you wonder how bad the other games must've been lol
thanks for sharing
Thank you guys so much! Thanks for laying it out for people just getting into this. Your bluntness is very much appreciated!!!
Watched this about a year ago. Now I'm interning at fantasy flight games.
Coincidence?
7 years later, where are you now?
@@arifaltundal5933 I'm now a senior designer on Legends of Runeterra at Riot Games. Previously worked at EA, Blizzard (Hearthstone, and worked on the game Faeria at Abrakam.
Coincidence?
About the copyright "issue":
I completely agree that it's a waste of time to file for a copyright. If it's such a great game and the IP becomes big enough for that to be a problem, then it's something the publisher will handle.
Also, there's nothing magic about a copyright. Everything you come up with is already your IP, so the idea that you need a copyright to "protect" your IP is simply wrong. A copyright just shifts the onus onto the "infringer" instead of the "owner". If you have any substantial amount of proof that you were working on it earlier (which, assuming you were discussing with others, you would easily have), then you aren't at risk of having your idea stolen.
Finally, for those paranoid people, I'll include a tip from the music industry: Once you've written the rules, or anything else you think you need to "protect", just print them out, and mail them to yourself. When the letter arrives, never open it. That way, if there is ever contention about whether it's your idea, you have a sealed, dated copy of your idea that proves when you were working on it.
Crap, I followed the first rule of researching, and someone had a game with the same theme and core concept (but way better than mine lol).
I was literally 24 minutes in before reading your comment and realizing
I have watched this video several times and at different stages of my first time designing experience. I take a new thing from it each time. Thanks guys!
I'm disoriented by the seating arrangement...
Im glad though
"To thy own self be true." Lol got funnier each time I replayed it.
I think this is the most enjoyable Dice Tower top 10 I've seen so far. It sounds like you guys talked it over before taping so you all had something to contribute to each entry, instead of each having your own lists and disagreeing with the each other. Very smooth, very funny, keep it coming!
Thanks for the awesome tips! And these don't just apply to boardgames but ALL games, including PC/console. By the way you may want to correct #2 in the summary list at the end, it should be "Design the game your way, there is no "one way" to do it "
This video has given me a great idea for a game - chiropractors operating steam rollers in an arena. Actually, I think if you were run over by a steam roller, you'd probably need a chiropractor.
Eh. I'd like some Top Ten Tips for Game Designers from people who make their living designing games. I mean, these tips are okay - but it reminds me of the different advice people get making digital games because they're not sure what they're asking. You can make your own games, you don't have to just go work in some AAA studio, unless you want to do that.
I think the physical game space can use a lot of the attitude that's going on in the indie video games scene. It's fine if The Dice Tower wouldn't like it! Keep it rough! Don't polish all the character out of it! There's nothing wrong with self-publishing!
“It’s a game, it’s not a practice of reality”. Really insightful and fun video!
My quote on playtesting:
Your first draft of your game is art: Coming up with some cool idea inspired by your muse and putting your own stamp - a piece of your own soul - into its shape and style, flow and function.
Every draft after should be science: Seeing how it worked, gauging how well that compares with the ideals you set out, cutting as necessary, and testing your new hypothesis for "what will make this game great" in as many blind studies as possible for maximum validity.
Thanks guys!
Tom I'd like it alot if you would make a video about your own experience designing "Nothing Personal". What worked right away, what changed, why it changed... stuff like that.
And keep the top ten coming!
Best thing for play testing that I've found is a local game store that encourages people to bring a game to play. Bring your game and you can start a pickup playtest with total strangers who, as gamers, are savvy to what you're doing.
My game had grand ambitions and I scaled it back to something simple.
Great advice about compromising between fun and ambition.
Designing games is not the path to become billionaire.
Zee, when can we expect "Office Worker: The Game" to hit store shelves?
Valve did that already with their The Lab game. lol
I agree with number 9. I am creating a board game that I want to play and share with friends and more. It is not about the money, I just want to bring some laughs for an hour or two.
Thanks for the video, very helpful.
Love your videos, as a new player of board games they've helped a lot with which games I should try.
By the way I love you guys playing around, joking and talking that's why I watch your videos over others on here!
Keep up the good work!
Best top ten list yet. I'm taking notes Vassal! When I meet you at a con with my game someday, I'll look you in the eye and "Yes, yes I did playtest it... people hated it at first. They don't hate it anymore."
I wish I could Like this more than one time. Simply the best common sense list for would-be designers I've seen. If you're working on a game design, set aside a half hour for this, it's so very much worth your time.
I just want to say that I absolutely love these videos. Thank you :D
Also: 'The best way to make a small fortune in the Gaming Industry is to start with a large one.' HAH. Perfect, thank you
I found some of these points helpfull, thank you for providing your knowledge wise gamers.
Cool. I can't wait for the next list.
I don't normally play board games, but I stumbled into channel and their enthusiasm has me convinced to try some. Now I'll know where to start.
I play tested at Snakes & Lattes on the Designer Night. My first game was ripped apart and I learned so much. Great List Dice Tower Guys!
Great video! Thanks guys!
This was a good episode and all the presenters riffed off each other nicely.
great video :)
but one thing though, i could really understand why some people would consider trying to publish, art design (pay someone to do this if you cant), game design all by them selves. because not everyone thinks of their game like "it is my baby, and i made it" or "you are going to steel my ideas" , some people just want to be on the market and learn how to do all of this to get a beautiful sellable product and knowing where to go to. I think also, if you give your game to a publisher and they do the artwork for you, i mean that is taking away the fun of the process of producing a game...
you should do a detailed video about things to look at when a game designer play-test his game and how to deal with it: duration, downtime between turns , multi-player solitaire syndrom, breaking possibilities...etc...
Is it acceptable to borrow mechanics from other games if your combination of those mechanics is original? Even if they are very popular and immediately recognizable designs?
Yes. It is encouraged. No game mechanic is wholly original. It’s why you’re allowed to have multiple first person shooters and they’re all different.
You CANNOT copyright a mechanic. Steal to your heart’s content, just make sure you add your own twists to make the game as a whole original and not a 1 to 1 copy.
This is what we were told by instructors for our Game Design courses.
You can see my projects on the channel Invader Jay Dev
LOL! "No one is going to steal your brilliant idea!"
That should be numbers tip numbers 1-9.
I've gotten so many ideas from watching the Tower's videos. Hearing their opinions and what they like in a game and want to see more often in other games. Why not be the one to make that game? Do I think I'm a capable designer? No. Not at all. Actually the opposite. I feel like I'm below average when it comes to a "designer's brain". But I really want to explore some of the games in my head. I want to make the games that I want to see made. So here's to making it work, somehow. Be seeing you! ;)
Great video! I was thinking about designing my first game. These tips will definitely help.
My interest in game design came from attempting to "tweak" and "improve" others' games. It came to a point where I might as well completely recreate it, form scratch.
i looooove that zee is front and center! (a little too much), now i need to watch it again, this time with the sound turned on.
Great topic and presentation guys. We were distilling Schnapps all day and it took us 20 minutes to figure out that we weren't watching CSI Miami. :) Now back to play testing.
I love number "two". It's true that there is no manual for game designing and we should come up with our own way. We should certainly read books about game designing, but if you read great game design books, they also suggest you to use your own way.
Automating game design is like automating drawing. You have a blank sheet of paper. There is no formula to fill the blank paper with a cool drawing.
These videos are a real treat! You Three guys are so funny, and you know what you are talking about! I really your reviews, but these series of videos are one notch higher on the fun-scale..
I know this is an old video, but thank you guys so much for this video. I already knew most of it, but there are still small tidbits that will help in a huge way. So, again, thank you.
Very good list. Regarding #4, I believe it was Alan Moon who said, "When you think your game is done, remove part of it." A good writer knows the value of editing: any piece of writing can be reduced 30% without losing value. Streamlining a game design is a similar process. Tighter is better.
You guys are great! I randomly came across this video and I just so happen to be in the process of designing a game. Thank you for these tips! I will take every tip with me in this venture of creating a fun game!!!
A quote from Neil Gaiman that has stood me in good stead when designing games relates to #3:
When your readers tell you something is wrong with the writing, they're usually right.
When they tell you they know how to FIX it? They're usually wrong.
Blind play-testing makes sure that the rules cover everything in the game. Your play-test groups can forget that "obvious" rule isn't actually in the rules. Their assumptions on how to play the game aren't shipped with the box.
I have a board and a table game. I have a generic basic game parts and board and would like to make it more professional looking ? Any suggestions or where do I start?
Regarding the "stealing rules" etc. It should be noted that there is NO copyright on boardgame rules/gameplay.
You guys should have a Top Ten video on Playtesting Tips for Board Games and I think it could be a good video because not many people understand what goes into the Playtesting of a board game as it is being designed. Just a thought.
Small error: #2 is "Design your game your way/Design the game you want", but the closing crawl that lists all 10 entries says "Match theme to mechanics" again.
Great list though, lots of fun to watch!
I am not really able to play tcg and ccgs, rpgs etc with others. How often should you get dealt a card from your hand or the deck. Say if you got 2 or 7 cards initially, do you get more cards if you do dam to opponent. I can't figure out how to ration out cards. If anyone could help that would be great
The music between tips makes this video into a very interesting Yiddish folk tale
I have 7 games in the concept and design process. This video does give me a lot of hints.
I'm designing my first game and I'm REALLY struggling with #4 ( streamlining) at the moment, but at least I'm following #1 (play testing) so I realize where I need to make cuts because in practice...it can become too intensive and lose it's original lighthearted appeal. You never know unless you try though. Thank for these tips and many other videos that have helped me...such as "Top Ten Annoying Rules in Board Games." I think I had around 6. Now I'm rethinking-or at least tweaking-a few :P Thank you!
Streamlining is about reducing bureaucracy.
Imagine you want player to manage 100 people inside a starship (soldiers, engineers, flight deck, etc) but they need to sleep. You could add a tracker for each one of them to monitor how tired they are. That is 100 trackers. Is that fun? It takes forever to update.
You realize that since they sleep 8 hours and work 8 hours that is 1/3 of people actually working. So no need of trackers.
But imagine you want to make them work overtime to 12 hours and they will get tired and productivity gets hurt ling term. It means you have a cost. It is equivalent of having less fully productive workers. So at most you need a table with costs and monitor one indicator, not 100 trackers. Unless some thing fun happens to each worker, having 100 trackers will not be fun. Is that table fun or should we get rid of it?
If these workers move across the ship and the ship is attacked, workers may get wounded. So you feel 100 trackers inside the ship would be fun but it is not. You only need to know how many people are there at a certain time. So you model it, you use pawns to see how many will be at a certain moment of the day and register the number in a table. Is it fun to use that table? If not, get rid of the table and reduce to an average number. Is it still fun or do we get rid of tracking workers?
Starship Captains reduced worker management to a queue. But the core mechanic is to handle that queue. Is it fun? Not really. There are pirates but combat is reduced to a damage token when you find one. Is that fun? No. So may be as a game for children it will work. But for advanced gamers it will not.
The captain is dead is a game that has only 7 workers. but you need to use your smarts to manage their actions and skills to do something fun and meaningful. It is way better than Starship Captains.
Anybody else noticed, in the final list nr2 was not "design the game your way, there is no one way to do it", but a repeat of nr5 "match your theme and mechanics"?
BTW great list, and yes I'm paying attention :)
Clone Wars is a pandemic game that has enought "do it your way" to make a fan of Clone Wars to fall in love and consider it the definitive Clone Wars game. It was made with love. And you can tell.
One question I have (especially for Tom): what is your best advice for co-designing a game? I know Nothing Personal was co-designed with Steve Avery (aka Capt. TankTop), which is a great way to diversify the playtesting (I playtested Nothing Personal in its first stages at ConnCon a few years ago). Tom: is there anything you learned or any advice about co-designing a game you'd like to share?
I've collaborated on every game I've ever worked on (and I'm currently doing some work with Fantasy Flight Games right now). If you'd like, I could share some tips.
First, agree on a design goal. This is the most fundamental aspect of making the collaboration work. Start by defining what type of experience you want the game to create for the players. Be as specific as possible as to what you want the players to *feel* as they play your game. Some goals in the past on recent projects have been, "Knife-edge contemplative tension where any misstep in strategy feels like it could destroy you instantly" and, "Explosive triumph that makes players feel like high-fiving each other". Once you know the type of experience you're designing for, a lot of the arguments melt away that are based on personal preference. For example, just yesterday I was working on a collaborative game and arguing for a mechanic that would allow you OR your teammate to pay an extra cost in order to power up your effect. I argued it was better to give you the option to power up the effect yourself in order to create additional sinks for resources, to help make sure players never ended up with too many extra resources they couldn't use. However, when we referred to the design goal, I realized that this made the cooperative feeling the mechanic was supposed to create feel optional rather than essential. Your teammate wasn't supposed to feel essential in this game. So we moved to put ways to get rid of resources elsewhere and made sure this mechanic was all about players working together for those high-five moments.
That's a good place to start.
Second, if you're working with someone you respect, agree that you'll only seek to put things in the game that everyone is happy with (in terms of serving the design goal, not just personal preference). This way the final product feels good to everyone. While not always possible to make work, this prevents a lot of lazy design and ensures that you strive to find solutions to everyone's issues. The quality usually increases dramatically.
Third, if you've reached an intractable impasse - passion always wins in the short term. Whoever cares more about the issue in question gets the short term victory. Often you'll get into situations where one person thinks path A is probably correct and another person passionately loves path B or hates A. Unless you're working with volatile people who get obsessive about everything (why are you collaborating with these people again?) go with the more passionate side on that topic winning the short term argument. That way you get your way when it really matters.
Fourth, move to playtesting as soon as possible. Feeling how things play in the actual world dissolves a lot of theorycrafting arguments. This is where the "passion rules" third step often gets overturned. Make sure the designers all play the game - as the perspective from in the gamer's hotseat is different than the designer's armchair.
Fifth, silent testing wins the knockout. If you STILL can't agree on something, make sure you get final data by having players play the game and read the rulebook without any help or guidance or word spoken from you. Observe them playing. This usually resolves the last conflicts.
If it's still too close to call, it's probably not a big deal and could go either way. Orbit back to third, passion wins.
Is there any website or blogs where I can express my game ideas/theme/mechanics?
He liked your commentary, that was shown on every of his subscriptors, and here we are :) (Sorry for my bad english)
Fantastic video. Kinda funny that Malifaux 2nd Edition is being playtested and i find many of the points here relate greatly to the playtesting that i'm doing at the moment. I can now continue to playtest Malifaux, but with this shift in paradigm. Thank you so much, can't wait to hear more tips in terms of the gaming industry.
About 15 years ago my neice had a school assignment to design a game. I don't even remember what class it was for, but it was 6th or 7th grade. She asked me to help and we co-designed a really poor game based on the 2nd Harry Potter book. It involved moving around the board with dice to go to classrooms to collect clues and gain 'lessons' so you could learn spells to defeat various monsters. The game was played in stages and the mechanics were very klunky. We both learned a lot from that.
Hii friends .i have one doubt Can we repaint game and character of game and publish it in other language with same mechanism . Is there any copyright issue for that from designer or developer of that game?
Thanks guys. I really enjoy your top 10 lists. Keep them coming.
Thanks guys! I'm looking into designing games (I have tons of ideas and a few prototypes) and this was really helpful!
Thankyou so much! Im a big board gamer and i have to make a original game for math class! So im gonna go above and beyond and print pieces and other things! With this tips i will win!
ThePastyPrince i know i'm late but, did it work out!
The theme one seems hard to do if it is a universal system. I have many many different themes I want to use the same game system for. Would you prefer multiple differently marketed games that all use the same system?
Very helpful video. Sad to say I was worried there was some Evil Corp out there looking to steal my idea. Thanks guys.
I have a question, when you say do your research and play lots of games, how many different games would you say is a good number to shoot for? I have about 100-120 under my belt would that be good?
i'm quite curious about the games tom and zee might come up with, is there a place anywhere on the net where i can get more informations?
Thanks, this was helpful (since I too have been working.. & playtesting.. on a game I have been designing!
Looking forward to seeing an updated Top 10 Essential Games List!
Number 8 says: No one is going to steal your idea but then #7 is telling people to not steal other people's ideas and that some people have...
O.o
8 says no one is going to completely copy your game, exactly the same. 7 says don't copy someone else's game, exactly the same, or just facelift it. It says to borrow components and aspects and mechanics from many different games to work well together, because nothing is truly original. Even the wheel was based off a log.
Number 8 from Tom and number 7 from Zee, yes. Two different people. Tom's comment to Zee's point follows on from his own number 8.
Number 8 means not to be afraid to spread word about your game idea while you are still developing it to get more input from the community. It is highly unlikely that there is some "Evil Publisher" surfing the net searching for good ideas to copy and publish befor the original designer can.
Number 7 means not to rip of games that are already published and successful just to cash in on the money.
People who would steal someone else's idea would probably go for the finished game that sold at least some copies instead of the random dude on some random board game forum sharing some random unfinished idea that may or may not be awful
#8 is referring to people stealing your idea before publishing. No one is going to steal some unproven idea from the Internet. Therefore you don't need to pay money to protect it.
#7 is referring to popular published games. Don't just copy Monopoly with a different theme or 7 Wonders with a different theme. People will reject it if it's just a bad knockoff.
Sounds interesting...
Is the idea that you'd alternate between exploring the dungeon and fighting off waves with towers?
Maybe exploring the dungeon triggers the waves; you delve too deeply, and awaken the Big Bad, then have to run back to town to fight it off with the towers?
Then, back to mop up the lesser evils that stayed behind, and pick up treasure that you can use to beef your towers...
I'd play that...
Good stuff: But a lot of your advice seemed centered around getting one's designs accepted/developed by other game companies (Hasbro, GMT, MMP, Wizards of Coast, etc.. to name a few). But, it seems to me, a lot of indie publishers these days (including me) are going the kickstarter route to avoid the piddling 3% royalties (or whatever small amount they want to rip designers off these days. Is that why #9 is expect a low return or profit?). I'd rather start my own company, which I fully plan on doing. I'll do the work myself, prototype when the play-testing stage is near, do a kickstarter campaign after the playtest period, then outsource the publishing to whatever printers (if the kickstarter campaign is successful and raises the needed funds). By the way, where can one find blind play-testers (you all make that sound so easy)?
I agree that game rules need to be streamlined, however complexity in-and-of-itself is not a bad thing. There are plenty of deep strategy games with rule-books that literally are books: ASL 2nd edition (185 pages sections A through E), D&D 2nd ed (252 & 192 pages, the DM manual and the player's handbook), Champions 4th ed (70 pages), AWAW (a world at war 2013 edition, 116 pages), SFB (starfleet battles, the captain's edition 1990, 224 page). All these games were (are still?) huge successes. I'm from the deep strategy game era (I play-tested the original ASL back in '85 for AH), and crunched my teeth on games of the "book." Conversely, euro-era games like twilight imperium (43 pages), Bios megafauna (11 pages), Pax Porfiriana (28 pages) are nothing when it comes to rules ... I'd rate those three 1, .5, and .2 on a 1 to 10 difficulty scale when it comes to rule's complexity, whereas "games of the book" are easily 9 to 10. Those three are great games btw. However, I am appreciative & well aware of the fact that since the "eurogame" invasion of the late 90's the trend has been toward simpler (dumbed-down in some sense) games. There's nothing wrong with that (it's just where the market is shifting I suppose .... though there is still a smaller? market for the deep "games of the book" that I mentioned above ... ASL is certainly still alive and kicking these days through MMP and the dozens of TPPs it's spawned, as well as D&D via wizards of the coast .. both owned by Hasbro).
I've been designing a dozen or so different games over the past few years now simultaneously, instead of one at a time. The reasoning there was that I wanted to be able to kickstart several games at once, so my company could start with more than one title. Unfortunately, I realized I'm not going to accomplish that goal (some are harder & are taking much more time to complete than I anticipated). I'm working on a family card game (for one) that is closest to finishing. I'm hoping to finish it & start play-test before this year is up. My opinion is that play-testing should not take long on this particular game since it's very simple & straightforward, but as I have no experience (other than the ASL play-test I was involved in back in '85) I can't really say for sure. A couple of my other game designs are "deep" strategy games (a 4x space game, and a 4x fantasy game). The maps are completed for the space game; the fantasy map is maybe 80% done. The rules & charts are probably 40% ish done for both. The counter artwork is really tough, and that is the single hardest & longest part of game design (in my opinion). Last year I plunked down $1200 for adobe cs6, so I've been transferring my scaler & raster art (from gimp & inkscape) into Ps & illustrator. I'm used to gimp/inkscape for art, but the learning curve for ai is a bit steep as I'm finding out. Anyway, that's another point, I'm actually doing my own design/development & art (instead of hiring an artist), but art just takes so long. As far as the rules go, I have no problem with either theme or mechanics. In fact, both seem to flow seemlessly & easily from my mind (I don't know if that's good or bad :) ). I much prefer doing rules & design over art. I don't mind doing art, in fact I enjoy it, but it just takes so damned long to do well .... (my map is certainly not the cheapo "10 days in the americas" art that you guys commented on in a previous you tube .. I think it was the 10 most disappointing podcast). I think the main problem that I have (other than the length of time it takes to do art) is that my rule books (at least for the two deeper strategy games) are unnecessarily bloated with description (as opposed to unnecessary rules ... though they may certainly suffer from that too; I don't know at this point. It's hard to see these things when one is so close to the fire).
I've been a gamer since I was 10ish, and I've noticed there are two broad categories of rules: descriptive and mechanical. ASL is the best example of mechanical rules (and is typical for most standard strategy board games); all rules are 100% black and white, and meant to be followed as-is like the law. D&D is the best example of the descriptive format where the rules are literally a description of how to accomplish things (guidelines of sorts) rather than law. My game designs started as a brainstorm: I just jotted down everything I wanted to include in the game. Then, I "converted" the brainstorm doc to rules, but it's turning out to be more descriptive than mechanical (these are strategy board games not RPGs), thus the end result is "rules bloat." I'm not 100% sure how I need to fix that (keep in mind, this is my first attempt at game design, I'm not a professional game designer). My thinking is that I need to streamline somehow during the "editing" phase after I finish the base rule version (version 1.0). After that, I'm thinking that I'm going to need to rely on the play-testers quite a bit to convert the basic version 1.0 to whatever finished version (1.x) after play-testing stage is done (and during it as well). My deep games, no doubt, are going to need at least a year of play-testing.
damn that was a long post!
I tend to ramble sometimes :)
I'll cut out here & spare you guys from any more of my hot air.
It's bedtime, take it easy guys,
rk
+Richard Kindel Hey man I hope that your projects are going well as I myself am creating a board game, graphic novel, and videogame at once. Being a one man band is nice and all, but working with 7 others on a videogame I have learned the good and the bad. Others input are very essential as sadly a human isn't always 100 percent right. haha I am a professional artist and designer so i leave the coding to my peers. The only problem I have run into is having people on a team who don't easily see your vision. This has caused tons of friction and much time wasted during our development meetings. I'll bring my rant to a point. If they are taking to long find at least 1 other person who you can undoubtedly trust to help you out with the labor. Hope you completed your games I'd like to know!
Thanks guys. I am trying to make a 3D Simulation game to help teach First Aid. Do you have any good hints and tips I should use for the learning process or any resources I can look at. I am developing it using Unity which I have never used before so it will be a nice challenge for me.
I think this might be about board games, I made the same mistake.
This video is about board games.
As an amateur game designer myself, I agree with 9 of the 10 pieces of advice. The only item I don't know about is the one about publishers - that is, I've never bothered to get any of my games to the market and therefore have no idea what it's like to work with someone who wants to publish a game I've done.
Otherwise, I think all designers should pay extremely close attention to what these boys are saying!!!
* Fairs/conventions attended by publishers
* Your friend's connections
Hi Tom,
so taccording to your example: if 2000 copies of my game is sold, and I get USD 2.5 / game, it means a total income of USD 5K. So if I have a co-designer and 1-2 graphic designers, etc. then I earn USD 1K-2K in the end. Is it correct? I understand that I should not design games for the money, but taking the 100+ (or even 1000+ ...) work hours into consideration it sounds a little bit disheartening...
As artists, our souls often go into our work & being aware upfront about the current reality of limited monetary compensation for the efforts, grants the artist a clearer perspective of their true goals. Many artists historically speaking, aren't recognized for their merits until a time after their passing regardless of the medium. H.R.Geiger being a modern-day exception, & Philip K. Dick as an example.
+Miko Peter Yep, that's the reality. And if you get your game signed to a publisher, it is standard to get a $1,000 advance on royalties. Same monetary result, without the risk and work of production and sales (the publisher handles that). Less control for you over the final product, of course, but having an outside developer working on your game (publishers usually have them) makes your game better. And you can already be working on the next game design while the publisher is handling production and sales!
About the ripping off/seeing what's out there point: If you're really worried about it, one way is to first write down your own ideas and play around with them and THEN go see what other people have done that could make yours better too. That way you at least know what you came up on your own and what you got from others. It's a more conscious decision then, I guess. Not that it's necessarily needed but anyway. Also you might end up wasting your time if you do that because it's very possible that your original idea is going to either suck or be something that's already happened. Unless you just want to try figuring it out on your own as an excercise.
(Also of course there is such a thing as subconsciously ripping people off. I can't remember what it's called, source amnesia? Anyway so you might have already ripped something off before you did it consciously.)
That only goes for specific stuff, though, I think. I mean if you haven't played anything beyond like monopoly then you're probably not ready to even start.
Also I was reminded of writers. You just can't be a good writer if you don't read. Maybe you can be a good fantasy author without first reading other fantasy books, but you should still go look into other people's fantasy books before publishing your work.
Insta fav, I got the theme since the very beginning, I was just searching for a way to implement it (visual novel, comic, game etc.). Making a Board Game out of it might be a good idea, and with this tips I have a better understanding and direction.
This is very cool. I am designing my first game right now and have even built a prototype and am play testing it right now.
I sure would like to know how to get it published beyond The Game Crafter though.
Alright guys, a Dungeon Crawler and Tower defense with a dash of pen and paper with a pinch of dungeons and dragons with a VERY tiny mix of Co-op.
With the theme of two dungeons in between a small village.
Is that good?
Oh my god at 9 minutes i just realized they are talking about board games and not video games.
I just did wow.
it is called "The Dice Tower"...
Eric Gregory Yeah I didn't really think about that.
you can notice the boardgames behind them
I feel like these tips are good for video games as well, not just board games.
I love your "top 10" lists, but this is one of the best lists you guys have ever put out. I'm working with some decent game concepts, but am really just discovering how to do this.... it's a tough walk through the jungle. Thanks guys...
Thanks much for the suggestions.
a popular game reviewer, simply liked your video, thus a large amount of subscriptions see that "like" and visits the video, he doesn't do that as often as you might think, so when he does it, it gets exposure, just as that.
And he's right, was a great video,. :)
I have this idea for the mute designer play test where i give my game to a group of players and say see if you can play it and watch and try to keep silent...
I'm in the midst of designing my first game, this was a very helpful list and I intend to do everything on it, I'm just finding it hard to gather the information needed to succeed such as developer contacts and producer contacts. any idea what the best approach would be? the game is still very much in developmental stages but having this info would be a huge benefit
That is the eternal problem of an artist, finding reliable contacts to deliver a product. Normally fairs/conventions or contacts of your friends are the best ways to connect. for a job.
Actually anyone working on a video game development team would probably take every single one of these 10 tips to heart. Especially independent developers with small or single person teams. The concept of designing a great game isn't limited by the medium.
Help me out here. How did Angry Joe send you here? From where? And who is he? I searched for an angry joe, but saw nothing that mentioned the Dice Tower.
i found this video very helpful, i've always had this kinda dream of designing my own games in the future but this video has helped a lot, thanks guys :)
I've seen a lot of games reach way above 1000 units sold thru kickstarter. Why don't they mention that aspect?
Because there are even more that don't. You're just looking at the successful ones that end up getting talked about. Go to Kickstarter and see all of the tabletop games active right now, the vast majority do really badly.
ince i dont have the right to get an academic background in games, this is me:
- Trained by the book by Flint Dille & John Zuur Platten
- Have experience with DAZ Studio
- Knows how to make detailed and easy-to-understand game-documents
- Knows how to write a screenplay
- Always aim for originality and strenght
- Have experience with the Electron and GECK Toolsets
- Is currently developing games with Game Maker 8
- First two experimental games released recieved mixed to positive reception
If you're in the need of basic modern board game design tips, check out the Game Design for Dummies entry at my blog. The URL is my first and last name as one word. Much more there too :)
www.jamesmathe.com/game-design-for-dummies/
And also: www.jamesmathe.com/myth-busters-board-game-designers-episode/
James Mathe Thanks man.
He liked this video, thus showing it on all of his subscribers (such as myself) feeds.
Great show, I wish you would do these more often :)
Zee is so right on pt. #1. They were on #3 as well.
Tom should shave his head and grow a beard.
NO
Or sit in the middle.
Based
😅
🤣
That is a pretty good list guys... lots of common sense to be seen in this video. Finding something you really enjoy doing is the first ingredient for recipe for success.
Sorry I dont wanna sound but like a noob but I am so I cant help it, but what is the difference between a board game designer and a publisher and how do I or what do I need to do to become one or the other
The designer of a game is the person who comes up with the game itself. They very carefully put together the mechanics, design the gameplay. basically craft the experience you and your friends will have at the table. The publisher is in charge (somewhat) of the theme of the game, the components, the packaging, and distribution. To make a long story short, the designer crafts the idea, and the publisher sells it.
ah thank you
Good advice. I've found it's easier to design game mechanics around a theme as opposed to vice versa. Once you've found your theme, then it becomes 'how can I develop mechanics to facilitate what I want this game to be or to do'.
I second point #4. Streamline the game, cut out anything that slows the game down too much. Video games have the luxury of having code take care of the math and configuring where as most board games have to do it manually, this puts a strain on the players and slows down play.
I quit playing Dying Light (PS4) because there was waaay too much crafting involved. I craft a weapon and it breaks after 1.5 zombie kills. Then I have to scavenge for 45 mins for parts to build another weapons to kill another 1.5 zombies. This type of game play broke the immersion and bored me to death, easy quit there. The same applies to board games.