John Shelby Spong - The Crucifixion: An Interpretive Portrait
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- "For those seeking to experience Christianity in a new and vibrant way, Bishop John Shelby Spong offers fresh spiritual ideas. Over the past four decades, he has become one of the definitive voices for progressive Christianity." (www.johnshelbyspong.com)
Bishop Spong joins us at Chautauqua Institution for a week to discuss several facets of his recent book, "Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy." Spong helps us to see the Gospels through "Jewish glasses," which he explains is necessary to understand the true intended meaning of the Gospel writings - peace through the glory of God, without fear or guilt.
I finally found the true meaning of Christianity not as a religion
but as a message of Love and the proper way to live as a Christian. Thank you, Bishop Spong. I would declare you the Pope of the New Christianity!
Pattern seeking mamnal find patterns they like in wall tapestry or greek-roman literature (aka gospel).
Proper way to live as a Christian> The only way for that to happen is through the Holy Spirit not by this apostate teaching of a self professing intellectual who believes only in his own intellect and interpretation. I met this man once and can say there was not even a holy feeling energy around this man -- only an arrogance.
Bishop John Shelby, If you had been my bishop I would have remained Christian. Your truly amazing! Your message is beutiful.
great
Katrina Bergman I may have as well. I'm now a Deist agnostic because of the crap going on in churches. Plus stuff in the Bible makes no sense.
@@danmiller6462 If y accuse others of crap or an institution you haven't got the point bishop John is making.
You are making the same mistake.
To be religious is not about others but about myself.
Yes it IS TRULY amazing how a man can so CROSS WAYS with God's word, and still have the CHEEK to call Himself a Christian.
In His books by denying that Jesus is the Christ, 1 John 4: 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. John Shelby Spong is antichrist
Well the problem is 2000 year old greek-roman literature that was written by greek author, in greek for a greek audience. Nl one had Americans 2000 years latef in mind that do not understand greek, nor greek culture nor greek philosophy. But the basics is that evdry author considdred the other as inferior or false. Non of them wanted to end up in the same book.
Thank you, Bishop Spong, for sharing your knowledge and insight so that we might begin "to experience Christianity in a new and vibrant way".
I endorse your comment you cant deny the value of a scientific approach to the bible I am a Christian and of the Spong school
@@maureenoconnor4430 Then try using your brain, it was free with your body, his argument is drivel, If Jesus walked in, said Hi Thomas, look, big holes aren't they, even he would stop and listen. Jesus rose from the dead, he had all the time in the world to tell the writers of the Gospel what happened in Pilates Office......... can't you see this guy is a fraud!
This man has re=created his god into his own image. Apostate. He needs to leave the Christian church because he does not believe
Finally someone who is telling the truth about the Bible! Thank you!
I had the honor of meeting Bishop Shelby Spomg
John was truly a great man and preacher. Thank you.
No I'm sorry..he wasn't. He was a liar.
Except he wasn’t- He was very knowledgeable about the scriptures and applied excellent analytical method
Bishop John Shelby Spong, I AM A DEVOUT HINDU, AND WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SO, BUT LIKE MOST HINDUS, I'M HAVE ALWAYS BEEN OPEN-MINDED. JESUS, IN PARTICULAR, IS NO STRANGER TO HINDU THOUGHTS, BUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY HERE IS : YOU HAVE CLEARED UP THE CHURCH'S MUCK THAT HAS POLLUTED THE PURE TEACHINGS OF JESUS.
SECONDLY, I WANT TO SAY THAT : YOU ARE THAT "SECOND COMING OF CHRIST." BLESSED BE YOUR SOUL !!! .
Drivel you are going around on that wheel forever, like someone picking up something on their shoe, you get squashed and deformed, and flung off, until the wheel comes around and picks you up again. Buddha spent his life looking for the way to get off that wheel. It took me 30seconds. Forget about the wheel, it is nonsense. If you think you believe or understand Jesus, yet you still give credence to Hinduism, you have either completely misunderstood the message, or you are seeking enlightenment like a stamp collector, rather than a reader of books, who absorbs what is written and uses it to better his understanding. Christianity, or the Belief in Jesus, relies on the fact you accept, there is but one god, in three parts, the creator, the father of mankind and all living things. The figure that came to earth, to correct our misunderstanding, the son, who died that we may live, suffering so that we may live an eternal life in, and this is important in him, not as something that goes from body to body lifetime after lifetime. And the holy spirit.... now what that is, you will only know when you abandon Hinduism as a principle, the notion you are in a supermarket and can pick up jesus in the frozen food section, add it to your basket and make a meal with it. No you need to accept, this is your last life on earth, by letting God the spirit in your life, your sins are absolved, you are released from the burden, and filled with the sure knowledge you will, when you die, or as I feel when I accepted Jesus as my saviour, become part of God's existence. The Gospels are the life of Jesus, but they are there to lead you to him, to know how and why his path, made yours the easiest path you will ever follow, and you too will see the light of the resurrection. What Jesus promises us all. Absolution is guaranteed when you follow his teachings and know in your heart, you are doing his will, with him, within you. This is the last time you need hit the road or get picked up like something a Dog dropped!
@@sre331l Very charitable. I see your faith has worked wonders NOT turning you into an angry ball of hate. Good luck with that.
@@dantean like Jesus with the moneylenders in the temple. Or God with Sodom... or Canan?
@@dantean Yes I agree. So much hate there. Spong himself used to preach like that. He tells us he was a christian fundamentalist and condemned gay people. He must have been a horrible man to listen to in those days. To know what he sounded like just listen to sre331's comments above!! Spong had a conversion though to the real Jesus... or Yeshua as his mother would have called him since they spoke Aramaic and not Greek.
I love Spong's concept that Yeshua "loved wastefully"... the exact opposite to sre331's style of preaching. No loving wastefully there!!
The always interesting and informative John Shelby Spong
R.McDonald
To love more wastefully. . . Yes! This is the best talk. I've just discovered this man.
I did not know him until 3 days ago and I'm so surprised that I didn't know him until this recently! But I am so happy to have found this wonderful man.
@@hatamtamimi8799 Oh, me too. I discovered him about a month ago. I've ordered most of his books; they are excellent. . . so informative. Currently reading, "Jesus for the Non-religious".
I just found out about him yesterday and I am so intrigued. Saved me spiritually.
@@mzdejavu3419 I really recommend his books. You can order them from your local library and then buy them if you want. I did. He really shows us the real intent of the Bible and how and why it was written. I can't get enough of him.
@@sherryuyeda5159 I just purchased 4 of them earlier today. Thank you!! Jesus for the Non-religious is one of the books I bought.
Thanks bishop. You are a light to my new walk. Im glad i left the fundamemtalist church. Only a fool will believe all about the "special" life of jesus..
God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,+2348025125218 if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you...
God help you! If you use the brain God gave you, you might see, the church isn't at odds with the Gospels, the Bishop is at odds with reason. He argues there was no one with Pilate or Jesus, yet we know what was said...... Did you buy something at the store this week What did you say to the shopkeeper/assistant? I'm going to kill you, and resurrect you on Sunday! Tell me all about the conversation on monday and I will write it down. The account was from Jesus himself...no mystery...don't follow a Charleton.
Maybe not so much 'fool', but a frightened individual. . . down to his/her unconscious soul. It's actually very sad. But the truth is in plain sight.
49:44 "I don't argue with fundamentalist, I try to love them, I try to recognise that they are speaking out of their insecurities and their fear"
And if you want to see those insecurities and that fear and the vitriol that it can produce see some of the comments below.
John Shelby Spong truly knew how to love. Maybe fundamentalists were never loved as children, so many of them only seem to know how to hate.
never loved as children.... VERY GOOD!
never loved as children!... and now... never loved as adults. :(
Notice: As is true of just about everyone, I have said and done some things in my life that I regret, but, as is true of just about everyone, nothing worthy of being executed for. Therefore, I would assert that few among us need someone to *die* for us, but rather that we need to acknowledge our mistakes--("sins")--make sincere apologies when necessary, and to try to always conduct ourselves in such a manner that we can say that we did unto others the way we would have others do onto us. RogerC 9/18/23
For the most theologians in Europe this is not new but it is so good en deep and profound. It gives more and a deeper understanding of the Bible and of the original Christian tradition .
Praised the Lord now and for ever.
But so few people watched this until now. It is a tragedy! Ordinary people need tooth fairies and lies.
people should do as Alan Watts suggested.On Easter Morning, burn a bible because you don't need it.The Kingdom of God is here.
Burn all of them. This nonsense has been dogging mankind for centuries. There was no evidence for a god then, no evidence now.
Some people need religious salvation,
Some people need salvation from religion.
And some people are in denial. They convince themselves, they are Alright Jack, no need to know what happens next, and who wants to live forever! But what if you will live forever, but repeating the same stupid mistakes time and time again. Or you could just be at peace with God and your thoughts and his thoughts are just that, eternal salvation from life. I'm sure sick of riding the bus, never getting anywhere. At least I have someone interesting to talk to, and the view is divine!
He really is great and I am not religious
Who are current leaders of progressive christianism?
God calls worldly wisdom "foolishness." Real wisdom comes from God and Jesus is the full expression of that heavenly wisdom.
no subtitles :(
Jesus, simply as a man, could have escaped his crucifixion. They were after him for a long, long time. He perservered so he could teach, deliver demons and heal the infirm. He stayed. He didn't run. Why? Because of His love for humanity. He knew he had a mission to fulfill. Spong, sadly, has been influenced by a dark entity that needed to be delivered before he led the church astray.
thank you once again
Bishop Spong is one step away from atheism...way to go Bishop!!
That's what I've thought since the first time I saw him lecture. I am an atheist and I've referred my christian family to his lectures since they won't read Hitchens. They dismiss him as an apostate. Sad really, I think Spong is the first christian I have ever seen who makes since of the Bible. However, I still dismiss the Bible out right because I don't believe there is a god to begin with.
He is very much a "theist", very much against any religion that is full of hate and rejection, and very much in favor of a God and a people of love.
Every Christian in one step away from atheism.
Anthony Benedetto
Congratulations. You're a fearful child. Forever an adolescent mind in a grown body.
He is a God HATER. That's what Atheism is, NOT No God but Ant-God.
This is the modern day "John, the theologian"
Sleep well. You gave me the red pill. I went to sleep a Jesus believing Christian and woke up the next morning to find an empty tomb.
He certainly won't be missed by Bible believing Christians.
@@antonralph6947 I would say fundamentalist- literalists.
And you enjoy waking up in a figurative empty tomb void of warmth? Your statement there is affixing a positive attribute to a negation. You are thankfully value was lost, and in turn thanking the thief. If that analogy is not kosher enough for your liking...you are acting as if the resurrection would somehow be impactful enough to influence your faith, whatever that happened to be. If it occurred or did not, the message itself, or the moral necessity of living in line with said message would remain. If there was indeed an empty tomb as you are so excited to find at the behest of this Bishop, it does not change the aspect of you being beholden to a specific aspect of right/wrong. An empty tomb is not a get out of jail free card, it is just a cold life room. Your guilt maintains in that room regardless, as such it is not a justification for that guilt to be alleviated as if it should not exist, or as if it is tied to the resurrection as an event. The usage of red pill there is ironic, as it’s a misuse of the term to begin with as you’re trying to find a rationalization to not adhere to something beyond yourself, and are adhering to at least what I’m assuming here is a materialist conception of life. Nothing to be thankful over, more so a sad thing in and of itself.
@@DiamorphineDeath The empty tomb precedes a resurrection. Giving up an old lens has led to a much more deeper and meaningful life.. Behold all things are new.
My takeaway from the video is the Bible is written in an allegorical style of writing understandable to Jews who lived two thousand years ago and is not intended to be read literally. The Bible, nonetheless, contains inspirational stories even though it was written by flesh and blood human beings and not by a fictional God who lived above the clouds.
Here's an academic question: Spong sees the problem with Christianity in being its assimilation of a jewish faith on literalistic grounds.
Question 1. How might we relate issues of literalism in relation to medieval Judaism and Moses Maimonides', 'A Guide to the Perplexed' - a work that also seeks to reject literalism from faith and scripture? Is Maimonides possibly drawing on the earlier non-literalistic tradition of Judaism when he writes this work, or is this something unique to medieval Judaism at the time?
Question2. What Spong's perspective perhaps doesn't account for is the typological nature of ALL biography/history at the time of the New Testament/Old Testament authors. ie was Socrates ugliness "real" as described by Plato in his work, the Symposium; or is this just a device to make the reader think of the subject of love (the works theme) above and beyond non-sensual terms? Plato says he looks like the drunken companion Silenus who is also suppose to be incredibly wise. Likewise, Plutarch says Cato was held from a window at the age of about four and didn't cry. Is this not like the story of Christ among the Doctors? Doesn't it function as an explanation and prefigurement to his later fortitude and status as a leading Roman Stoic figure and statesman?
So clearly "gentiles" used typology. But how was it that they took their own literally/figuratively? And how does it then relate to Spong's assertion of the misreading of Judaism? Is there a distinction between the typological tradition in Judaism vs in gentile Greco-Roman literature? Why would gentiles misread Judaic-Christianity if typology wasn't foreign to them?
Would greatly welcome feedback to these questions, in the context of Spong's arguments, cheers.
Why don't you write this on his forum? We might get an answer from the man himself then.
You just used big words without saying anything
Bishop Spong: "Whatever you think the Bible means is what it means, have at it, the biblical writers just made stuff up so we can too, it means whatever you want or need it to mean."
If it means anything you want it to mean it means nothing!
Amen Frank
my ignorant fell for. it means, that whatever you seek is in god. in meaning. id doesnt mean you are right.
You could sail the USS Enterprise through the holes in his logic sideways.
He's a scholar. You appear not to be. One would need some evidence of your ability to analyse a text before taking your comment seriously.
@@richardbradshaw4567 many atheists and criminals are scholars too. What does that prove?
As far as John Shelby Spong is concerned, God and the Human Authors he inspired to write the book/s He assigned each one are DAMNED if they did, and DAMNED if they didn't, ergo John Shelby Spong has got it in for God and His written word.
If as they misinterpret "Jesus is God", how can it be that he asked God why he had forsaken him?
It's not possible to forsake oneself, therefore it has something to do with metaphor, period.
Hi Paul. I'm writing from a neutral position here and merely commenting on the scriptures known as the Christian Bible. Trinitarians (be they right or wrong) hold God to be one God in THREE persons. Jesus was therefore not speaking to himself as you suggest and this fully concords with scripture in thios context, therefore it does not necessarily require it to be metaphor (comma).
Bishop Spong offering some intellectual biblical accounts through biblical evidence....Big Up Papa Spong
THERE CAN BE NO GOD WITHOUT HUMANS.
With out God, NOTHING would exist at ALL, let alone Humans, You should stop putting the cart before the horse.
@@Geoffroxx Even Nothing is God's, don't short change God!
@@sre331l Nothing doesn't exist, if it did... it would be something.
6.56 to 9:01. The answer to your question, Bishop, is that this is what happens when people write fiction
God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,+2348025125218 if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you,..
But what about the book of Hebrews? Isn´t it a letter written by Jews and addresed to Jews? Didn't these Jews believe Jesus had "died for their sins"?
Typical, so consumed by the fact they were the "chosen"... we are all chosen, and we are all brothers and sisters of God,Christ, The holy spirit. Jesus paid the price of all our sins, is another way of saying you are free of guilt. Your past wont be held against you, whether you were born black white brown yellow pink, purple with orange spots, murdered, jilted your boyfriend, broke a vow........ no matter, your sins are no more..............so get on with embrassing what time you have left with the holy spirit (God) in your thoughts and n your heart, loving him, is loving yourself, and bringing that to others, for all our sakes. for we are in God with you! Not hard...Hebrews just needed their delicate ego massaging.
Interesting topic, thank you bishop john shelby
Quran 4 : 157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
sO, THIS MAN DOESNT NEED THE bIBLE HE CAN WRITE HIS OWN!
YES. And so should YOU. Write your own truth.
@@declankelly9829 what for?
This type of talk is shocking for many Christians because normally when they go to church they are only spun a positive view of the Bible a kind of glossy overview. A bit like if you go to a car dealer you are only going to hear wonderful things about their autos.
Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 'Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is not entering through the door to the fold of the sheep, but is going up from another side, that one is a thief and a robber.
So, Jesus' death folks, as the Bible records it - people who were actually there - has nothing to do with vicarious atonement - so I guess if Spong believes that, he will not have to spend eternity with those who believe Christ paid for our sins.
Doctrine doesn't matter.... truth does.
Hard to understand the leaps this guy takes. We are to take as actual history the Babylonian Captivity and the Return but not accept as historical the details of the Crucixion even though Luke says in Acts that his Gospel is written from eyewitness accounts. Bah! No wonder, even Raymond Brown dismisses Spong as a biblical scholar.
I think the babylonian captivity is attested historical fact. Not certain though.
Honestly, if you listen to today's top biblical scholars, they go further than Spong re the problems in understanding the gospels as history. Eg Crossan, McDonald, Miller, Ehrman, Tabor, Faith Walsh and more besides . They are not history. And not everything said to be said by Jesus was said by him. The nearest we can get to what he said are the sayings shared by Q and Thomas, the common sayings source. The letter of James will reflect Jesus' teaching far more than Paul.There is so much going on in the gospels we can't hope to understand. It was common in that day for a very important person, to add in a birth narrative, to 'fill in' where you don't know the detail, to create speeches which would have been what they may have said but noone was there to record it. There are many greek tropes in the gospels which again signal meaning. There are biblical references to the Hebrew bible, again signalling meaning. Spong is brilliant here at picking out bits of the story where we cannot possibly know what Jesus said. Yet there are his words in the gospel. It is to convey truth as the gospel writer saw it. Meaning. Even an empty tomb is a common greek trope meaning the person was so special they have risen up to heaven, to become a God.
stronge
👏👏👏👏
L
This man is a liar and the truth is not in him. If Jesus be not raised then we are dead in our sins.
You sound like a parrot.
Some of his references from the Gospels are not accurate. There were a number of people present at the "crucifiction."
This guy needs to have all his videos taken off UA-cam.
@@menamarina8368 You fundies really are the most triggered people on the planet
@@menamarina8368 And had you lived in Germany in 1943 you would have burned books. And a few years later, no doubt you would have been happy to help load people into boxcars.
@@bjhcvuaerpigfy you're making so much sense. This man was a fasle teacher.
Spong ironically comes across as a preacher albeit with an alternative message. And he seems like an angry conceited preacher at that, intent on scaring and disturbing people like many other "orthodox" preachers.
He's talking drivel. The message of the Gospel and there is only one, written a myriad of different ways. Jesus was born as man, died on the cross, and was risen. Man cannot know God through his good deeds, but by knowing Jesus bought his sins, paid the price on the cross, and gave everyone the opportunity to be born again, and live for eternity in God, at one, as one, with him. You don't have to die, you can be there with God, the second you let him in. The holy spirit. No rocket science, arguments, discussions, lectures, picking holes, dissection. You wont find God if you go looking, he is everywhere....just let him in!
why the HE and HIM? Why are you so sexist?
Maybe John won't debate a "fundamentalist" Christian in particular, because He's afraid of the Truth, In fact He's afraid of the Way, the Truth and the Life, Which is Jesus. When the day comes He's going to have to bow the knee and confess with His tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. I doubt that He's going to enjoy that.
Bless your Heart, Love is the way.
Heard him in a lecture that he dosen't see a need in circular arguements
He has debated several times on a variety of the issues he preaches about. A wonderful bishop
He did say the lady making reference to a Scripture made him nervous!
I can image this guy now standing before Jesus now knowing that all the garbage that came of his mouth is just that, garbage, yet Jesus full of compassion does not judge him for this guy has judged himself by not acknowledging what Jesus has done on the cross for mankind!
you make a great judge yourself buddy.
Please read what I said “he has judged himself” I have not judged him. I made a comment on what he said which is utter garbageI I did not judge him as a person. These are two different things.
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child’s balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying
Spong does not teach what the apostles of Jesus Christ taught. People who follow his teaching will eventually lose the presence of God in their lives. Then to justify the loss, all you will be doing is spending the rest of your life telling people how amazing false teachers like Spong are.
Great comment! The fact that Sprog calls himself a mystic is a testimony to his costume and the truth of the "churches" he represents. zero power to enlighten in a Godly way. This is what the churches have been really leading to.
The New International Version says in 2Tim 3:5 "..having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."
Do you not get it. We don't know what the apostles taught. We don't know what they wrote or who they are or how old they were when they wrote it. We have believed what we were told and it was sincere but not accurate. Even reading the nt in Greek is a translation. The chapters collected into what we call the bible are an ancient historical document. The scholars have access to things we don't. Learn about gospel sources like Q to start.
The presence of God is not something you can lose. That's not God. God doesn't love based on your behavior, remember? Being a fundamentalist made me paranoid for good reason. If you're being judged by your behavior you might as well be under law
@@ME-ru4hv Yeah that's Johnny alright, has NO idea of what the Bible's all about, so He doesn't want anybody else to understand it either, John Shelby Spong "I treasure this Bible" Geoffroxx "My foot, You do, You HATE the Bible, and God as well".
@@michelemcdevitt836 You HATE the Bible as much as John Shelby Spong HATES it.
43:16 “I don’t think God is bound by my religion. God is greater than my religion. My religion is a pathway into the mystery of God, and that’s the meaning of everybody’s religion. So walk your pathway with integrity.”
This is a fundamental problem with this kind of feel-good, liberal claptrap. Who gave the good Bishop the authority to determine what "everybody's religion" means? That is just as exclusive and arrogant a statement as any kind of fundamentalism.
Sad that this deceiver never repented ot his lies and now he lost the chance to be with Jesus. He knows very well that hell so real now.
Except that they are not lies are they! You can open your bible and see that what he is saying is true. One gospel says this, another says that. They both can't be right, at least one has to be wrong.