Also, in all fairness, prior to Hush, Jim Lee had never done 12 consecutive monthly issues of anything. His longest uninterrupted run on anything was 13 issues of Wildcats but that was over a four year period.
On Uncanny he only did 10 issues, one (#273) also had other artists on it. There was then a three month gap and he did X-Men #1-11, and the last two issues of that run were shorter and filled up with the Maverick back-up.
@Larry Lewis right so the solution is to do less issues per year. if 12 is too much for "that quality" then do one every two months. manga artists in japan would love working for marvel and DC. you got some of those guys knocking out 40-50 pages a week. 30 pages a month would be like a vacation for them.
@Larry Lewis if you was buying this stuff back in the 90's you would know that as customers we have been more than grateful. i was more than happy to wait for rob liefled to take 6 month breaks just so i could get the next issue of youngblood. to put workloads into perspective i suggest checking out the manga titled fairy tail by hiro mashima. that ran weekly, so 20 or so pages a week in addition to any bonus chapters he sometimes did which makes it around 90-100 pages a month on time with no delays. action scenes, detailed backdrops, double page spreads, entire armies fighting, the whole lot. jim lee could have done at least six issues of wildcats a year considering the amount of artists he could have picked to do pages if he was struggling, the problem for him and other guys like rob liefeld and some others who started to draw less and less was that they just didn't want to do it anymore. they left marvel and got paid more money for doing less work so of course we will never see those guys bust their asses on paper again unless their lives depended on it.
I was referring to the fact that Jim Lee seemed surprised that no one thought he could do 12 monthly issues. I respect his craftsmanship and I've always been a fan. So I wasn't criticizing his work, only pointing out why people might not have thought that he could do 12 monthly issues.
@Larry Lewis you got me there with that one but i'm sure you got the drift in reference to lee, liefeld, silvestri, portacio, mcfarlane, tan, finch, platt and any other image artist that has never had a long extended run on any title or often recruited other artists to do their jobs for them.
I remember a radio ad on a local rock station for Batman #608 and that it was being pushed that hard made me read it, and I loved the story... at the time. I don't know how it holds up today.
All these criticisms seem fair, but as an entry point these flaws weren’t that obvious. I remember really liking this book. In short, it’s a really good book for people that haven’t read that many comics.
I worked in retail at the time. I'm not a fan of Loeb. I think he's lucked into getting top talent on his work which elevates it. Hush, like Long Halloween, suffered from a confusing mystery at it's core. Both are Whodunnits with Long Halloween being Everyonedunnit-but-not-sure-whodunwhat and Hush being a StillNotSureWhoDunnit. To your point, I have several of friends who aren't such big fans but lover Hush so it works as you say.
I think Hush worked really well because it was a very accessible take on the character, while also touching on a massive amount of the mythos. Kinda reminded me of the Arkham games.
Yeah, in one of Judd’s interviews he talked about how when he was reading Hush while it was coming out that he thought it was cool that Hush was actually Todd who had come back somehow. Then it turned out it wasn’t and a few years later he took that head canon he had and made it actual canon by pitching, then writing Under the Red Hood. It was a cool instance where a writer was a reader having some of thoughts as the audience, but actually in a position to make it reality.
He went on to call the dc animation people, pitching his comic and already came up with the differences that made the movie work better without context. They as you probably know, let him write the script. Judd really made it happen for himself.
It's usually taken for granted, but Hush is such a great Batman sightseeing tour. Jim Lee's top notch art combined with Jeph Loeb's solid story (though I like Dark Victory better) and excellent characters rotation just freaking make an impression on you, while guiding you through Batman's exiting adventures. No wonder this arc is one of typical entering points for many readers (was one of the first DC comics I've ever read). Even though detective aspect are, well, underwhelming. I don't know how it worked in monthly format, but it's a good stuff to read in one sitting, especially when you're a newcomer
I was a teenager when this was coming out and it was perfect to get me into comics...looking back there were way better Batman stories(before and after) but I was excited every month to read this book. Overrated? Yes but If I picked up the story again today I'm sure I would still have fun reading it.
As someone new to comics, I try to stay away from really hyped or glorified storyline when all I hear is praise. I know a piece of media can never be perfect, but when all I see online is praise for something, it's hard for me to control my expectations so I get scared of getting disappointed. Funnily enough, after hearing your criticism of this comic I'm actually more willing to actually read Hush and going in lower expectations that could be met or surpassed. So thank you for the discussion and great video!
You explaining the convoluted web of who's behind it all reminded me of this line of Agent Mahones from the show Prison Break (probably because I just did a binge of it recently) "That's pretty clever. The problem with being that clever (starts to sound deranged) is sometimes you get too clever for your own good!" I enjoyed this as it came out, loved Lee's art, the idea of Tommy Elliot being the dark mirror of Bruce that wanted his parents dead is a good premise. With that said, dislike the Huntress redesign that came out of this and really wish Jason would be perma-killed again, a dead Robin helps raise the stakes. What you said about bringing the big villains back for a year long run like Hush did, I would like that for X-Men (in an event where they're actual villains and not part of the mutant nation congress). There's so many forgotten X-villains that deserve another shot, like The Upstarts, Holocaust, The Externals, Mount Joy, Gene Nation, Azazel, The Nasty Boys, etc. that I'd almost want it as a mix, put in Magneto, Mystique, Sinister, Proteus, The Hellfire Club, The Sentinels, and intersperse the second stringers that could hit big with newer readers, like Fitzroy or Tetherblood or Sienna Blaze. Even Exodus and Stryfe have cool designs, interesting enough backstories to work with, but it doesn't feel like enough work has been done with them to make them A-list: Stryfe talks in dull exposition monolgues about how evil he is like a third rate Bond villain and has generically powerful abilities that don't have an interesting hook in their application and Exodus is just kind of there, he tends to be the buffer between using important villains, he has an interesting backstory as a curse french knight that was entombed and acting as the right hand of what he see's as great leaders, there's a lot to play with there that they just haven't in over 2 decades
I remember my one friend lending me the books at the time and I was kinda... I felt like I should have enjoyed it more than I did, since it was a big deal. Glad to know I was just into the art. It also explains why it feels weird every time Hush shows up. The character himself is a jack in the box that has no meaning once he's sprung in the one story.
These podcasts have been enjoyable on the long drives. Thanks for doing these, Perch. The problem is: I was a teenager when Hush came out and it was one of my first non-animated series views of Batman. I knew the Thomas reveal was messy. I know the idea is that he's a mirror to Batman, but with terrible morals. I just don't remember it being this poorly executed. I am excited to hear you guys tackle Scott Pilgrim. The first volume was messy and I don't think O Malley though it would become as successful as it did, but it became more streamlined as it went on. Even before a movie, Scott Pilgrim was probably the first example of a "free comic book day" comic getting through to me. It was nice back then when FCBD made new readers instead of just being another thing that scalpers and resellers try to ruin.
Glad you did this one, I need to go back and re-read this, I haven't read this since I was in High school, when it first released..I don't even remember all of it..
This is a comic made in all the right places all the way to the editors work on this story, Also thank god for Starkings to do that jumble of a mess in the last issue with Bats and Riddler with the dialogue that Loeb put out because good lord that was a mess at times.
I think that's harsh. At this point, Loeb was not only writing other comics but found out his son had bone cancer. What's Johnson's excuse for _Brick_ ?
Hahaha I still watch Jim Lee drawing every now and then on twitch. I think Hush should be the foundation for the next "trilogy" of movies. To think Loeb is one of the great Batman writer
For some reason, modern writers have decided that they need to be "smarter" than their readers and, as such, the readers should never be able to figure out the resolution of the mystery before they reveal it. You can see this with JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, and especially in this book. As a consequence, the resolution of the mystery, which should make the reader go "Aha! It all makes sense now!" instead makes the reader go "Wait, what? Where did this come from?"
I enjoyed Hush but, structurally, it felt like treading the same ground as The Long Halloween. That's not to say it isn't worth reading. I love Jim Lee's art and the issues actually felt worth the money I invested in them as they were coming out. Not like today when I can read a modern tpb in the time it took to read 2 issues of Hush.
That' because Long Halloween, Hush and even Dark Victory do have the same structure. A mystery about a new villain,appearances by any character Loeb can cram into the story, some red herrings here and there and a big reveal at the end. Even his Red Hulk followed the same structure to some extent and it get repetitive after some point. We do get beautiful art by the top artist he usually work with like Lee and Sale
@@drewtheunspoken3988 I have only read DaVinci's Code so I can't really comment on that, but unfortunately many writers do tend to go back to the same well too often and it becomes repetitive and eventually predictable.
Hush definitely isn’t my favorite Batman story. Not even close. But it’s one of the books I always point people to if they are looking to start reading comics. The story is easy to follow if you are even a little familiar with Batman, there’s a ton of characters, and the art is obviously beautiful. As far as Hush goes, the superior story is Heart of Hush.
So many people in the comments who got into comics reading Hush. I also got into comics via batman, but for me it was Knightfall. Now I feel old, but also, happy, because I got the better intro.
Wow! Great video Perch! I was surprised with the video because I was anticipating that my favorite UA-camr covering my favorite comic would be more favorable. Haha. Oh well. You brought out some strong solid criticisms and I'm curious to re read it. I do think it's a fun jump on point for new readers. I've used hush just recently to get a guy hooked on comics. I also enjoy the adventure that the mystery takes you on! You go through high points of batman's life and feel the highs and lows as he tries to figure out what's going on around him. I'll give it though, when you talked out the ending and the whole reveal....it is a bit crazy. I loved the video regardless of my opinion! Solid discussion! Finally, I have a vote for grant morrison batman! Thanks Joe and Perch!
Thank you so much for taking the time to not only listen to the whole thing, but to write out such a thoughtful response. It's really appreciated! Grant's run on Batman is definitely something we've talked about too, and we'll probably be hitting on some of Grant's other work at some point as well.
As a life long Batman fan Hush was also my entry into the main Continuity Batman Comics after which I read Under the Red Hood and then from the start of the Morrison run through the first few volumes of Tom King. As an intro I think it worked really well with all the recaps catching someone up to speed but, having gone back to it recently I can definitely see how it would be tedious for someone who was very familiar with the state of Batman at the time it came out. Nonetheless, I still appreciate it for what it is although I have noticed more flaws with it as the years have gone by. Great video overall!
This was the comic that changed me from being a Marvel Zombie to a broader comic book fan. I was about 16 or 17 when I read it. I know it’s not a strong story. But it was a massive event at that time. And I think Editorial changing their decision to make Hush Elliot instead of Jason Toad was what ruined the story.
I remember having a hard time finding that first issue. When I finally got one I enjoyed it. I wanted it for the Jim Lee art. I don't remember the story at all.
Would love to hear both of your opinions on any of the Teen Titans comics! I’ve only read the new 52 Teen Titans and the second follow up run but that’s it. Love the characters so I would definitively like to hear some thoughts on those or other stories!
Interesting point; I'd thought the Wayne family was old money - so Thomas could conceivably have been a surgeon strictly because he enjoyed the challenge, and still had the kind of cash to have a mansion/butler etc. There was also going WAY back, the notion he was the first Batman and passed the mantle to his son at death - though that might be retconned non-canon. He could as a "master detective" had the head for business as well as medicine. Definitely better at one, but can do both. However; Thomas might not have been as exceptionally skilled as his son, who is more of a businessman as his cover in trade. That might be where the defense contract stuff comes into play, as means to ensure he always had X amount to spend on all those expensive-assed toys, and how they're created in the first place. Without reading too much into it, as far as reader effort goes. Still doesn't explain how he has all those billions to throw away - his economy is still serious borked vs budget when you factor in all that he has, versus all he SHOULD have based on realistic financial trends. (It's nothing by the way, just for those who might be wondering. The same as Oliver Queen, but at least they TRIED to address that - they still kind of failed to be honest, but it was attempted) Didn't read the comic, did see the movie and thought the twist with the Riddler wasn't a bad take (contrived doesn't always mean bad) however if there were that many turns in the book, I'm glad I never tried to read it. (More a Marvel guy anyway, and a superman fan lol) * I do wish they'd sort the Robin/Kori'ander thing out. I like them as a couple, and they did already have a daughter * Sounds like there were A LOT of mental Jim-nastics involved and yep, you can go ahead and shoot me for that one.
great video, jim lee will always be a great art inspiration for me but that's where it stops. would it be possible for you and joe to do a retrospective on the "fatal attractions" crossover for the x-series?
I have a couple of versions of this (trade & unwrapped) and honestly only bought it for the art (Jim, Scott, Alex). The story just never did it for me, not a huge fan of Loeb, but still better than most current day comics from the big 3.
I can appreciate a lot of what Hush tried to do, new baddie , adding lore, showing off some rogues gallery, 'shipping catwoman and batman , while still disliking the ride, entirely. Dislike Hush character and how it undermines Bats detective-ness, and impo Hush's origin's are stupid, there I said it. Also, the make-sure-the-comic-goes-NOWHERE catwoman and batman disassembly. There's nothing brave about this, and perhaps illustrates the fatal flaw of many comics, in general. They're Simpsons episodes, one shots in time, instead of true Breaking Bad-like development, deliberate choices, and brave exploration. Afraid of change & character development in a stasis-creating serialized way. All that said, I'm still kinda new to comics, so what do I know! I enjoy Batman comics, the most, so I'm glad I read it, either way. My (used) trade has missing dialogue and missing ink layers on like 14 different pages, mostly towards the final third of the trade, which doesn't help my feelings about this particular story. Then I read Heart of Hush by Dini, and loathed that even more, realizing, I just don't like Hush as a baddie, at all. Love Batman stories, in general, but not the Hush ones, for whatever reason. Fun conversation, Perch!
54:59 It's to harsh to call it the Ryan Johnson of Batman. I don't see Batman throwing his batarang over his shoulder and then run off to drink alien swamp monster breast milk.
I really do enjoy your videos, Perch. You are extremely competent and intelligent. And my forthcoming question has little to do with this specific video about Hush, but rather refers to most of your videos. Are there any modern-day or old-school comics that you enjoy? It just seems that you do not like almost everything you review or talk about. I do not mean any disrespect or offense. I am genuinely curious because considering the amount of time you invest in the comic book industry, it does not appear that there is much within the industry that you enjoy. There is just an overarching cynicism and pessimism in most of your content. I do sincerely look forward to watching your future videos. And truly thank you for all of your content.
Here is something interesting I noticed: there is a conspiracy in Gotham that involves all of Batman's villains he has to go through all of them in this long, epic story, and there's a hot new (or maybe not so new but new presentation) villain behind it all. Knightfall, Eternal, Hush. Very similar 3 books, almost a decade between each. I like Knightfall the most because it's more than just an excuse to have everything all at once, it's actually trying to tell a larger story about a character that I really like, Jean-Paul. I think my least favorite among them is Hush, but I still like the book for being really over the top and having a blockbuster feel to it. The plot makes 0 sense though, and the reveal was so obvious. Eternal has a much better mystery and reveal IMO, but it's also pretty bloated. I guess Long Halloween is kinda like that too, a big epic Batman story where you see all the villains and there's a conspiracy mystery, but for an early year Batman. I dislike Halloween though, it's every bit as dumb as Hush but everyone treats it like Year One or sth
@@jcoral1 I get it. He definitely needs a stronger mainstream presence. Great Riddler stories by Chuck Dixon and by Paul Dini in Detective Comics are the easiest for me to recall. Also Zero Year. And he is usually good outside comics. Not only in BTAS, but also in Batman Arkham and Telltale videgames, and in Gotham TV show (that apparently everyone hates, exept for me and another 3 people across entire internet). Thanks for answering to my emotions outburst. Your thoughtful discussions with Perch and Thinking Critical are always a great delight to listen to. Best wishes!
@@as_the_sun_goes No problem at all! And thank you for the kind words, it's really appreciated. After writing that before I thought about that storyline in Dixon's Detective run from issues 705-707 with the Riddler putting a bomb in Cluemaster and that was a fun read for sure.
Located in the Tacoma area perch if u open your shop keep us posted love to come down buy some comics and talk some with u I’m a collector as well with a small channel hey I love what u do.......... I read about 4 issues of Batman hush and put it down after that smh it was a snooze fest
One series that I find similar to Hush is Marvel Knights Spider-Man, 12 issues where we see almost every classic character with a twist at the end, the difference is in Marvel Knights the story has interesting ideas in every issue and the events have some weight to them. I also think the art by the Dodsons is better than what Jim Lee did. Overall it was a modern take on Spider-Man with some deconstruction but by the end it touched on what made the character who he is, I think Hush tried to approach Batman in a modern way but it really didn't have anything new and Batman was just boring.
So having listening to this now... I'm curious Perch, you sort of...not contradict yourself..but bring up a counter point to your sarcasm (which I loved). So you both made the sarcastic comment of this book *gasp* not switching artists or writers mid way...but then you say by the middle of this arc, it starts to look sloppy and 'phoned in' or clunky... So I'm wondering then if maybe switching artist wouldn't have been such a bad idea? If you have a book where you know it needs top tier, consistent art...would you rather have it degrade and be crap by the end? or have it be split between 2 or 3 artists, but each one gave his all? For myself, (and I don't even think the art takes that big of a hit) I think I'd still rather have one consistant art style though, and can over look a more flawed back half...
Well, Jim Lee talked about his style evolving, but more there were a couple of issues that seemed very messy. Rather than swap the artist, I would have rather had the artist get more lead time and be further along so no rush was needed.
@Orion Pax I strongly disagree lol . People In literature praise the long halloween. Not to mention it created the trope of the rotating rogues gallery.
@Orion Pax again the world of literature praises the long halloween. Not to mention it's huge influence on the dark knight trilogy. Which is far better than anything marvel could ever hope for. With the exception of the daredevil show. maybe people in the marvel world feel that way. Also I don't doubt the dark knight returns influence however . I just don't think it's aged as well as some people believe. It's no doubt very good and brought the dark tone and seriousness back to the character.(of note though Denny O'Neil brought a dark more serious tone as well, I'll also mention Doug Moenchs first run in the 80s) many people forget these things or are completely unaware of them.
Everyone Knew tommy was Hush except for a few writers at Wizard magazine that thought he might be a red herring . Poor guys gave loeb too much credit there.,, not that I actually hate the story
Unpopular opinion, but I don't find Joker to be a very compelling character. He just involves too much suspension of belief. How does this madman go toe to toe with Batman? How does no one kill him when he kills people fairly indiscriminately? How does he keep getting goons despite often killing them? Killer Croc is a giant monster, he's cool, he looks pretty durable, he looks like he can survive.
I definitely feel that there are a lot less great Joker stories than people make there out to be. I think the early Killer Croc stuff in particular is great stuff.
The art was exquisite; can't fault the art. Jim Lee can mime all he wants 👍 I get why you guys don't like the story. I enjoyed it for the most part (as much as anyone can enjoy something as convoluted as this). UNTIL the absolutely LAME-ASS motivation of the main villain👎. He's out to get the son of the guy who saved his own father's life resulting in the villain having to wait a few years longer for his inheritance. Is this the best they could come up with?!? There are 1000 word Fanfics with a better plot!
Watching that old Jim Lee video is too cool
Also, in all fairness, prior to Hush, Jim Lee had never done 12 consecutive monthly issues of anything. His longest uninterrupted run on anything was 13 issues of Wildcats but that was over a four year period.
On Uncanny he only did 10 issues, one (#273) also had other artists on it. There was then a three month gap and he did X-Men #1-11, and the last two issues of that run were shorter and filled up with the Maverick back-up.
@Larry Lewis right so the solution is to do less issues per year. if 12 is too much for "that quality" then do one every two months. manga artists in japan would love working for marvel and DC. you got some of those guys knocking out 40-50 pages a week. 30 pages a month would be like a vacation for them.
@Larry Lewis if you was buying this stuff back in the 90's you would know that as customers we have been more than grateful. i was more than happy to wait for rob liefled to take 6 month breaks just so i could get the next issue of youngblood. to put workloads into perspective i suggest checking out the manga titled fairy tail by hiro mashima. that ran weekly, so 20 or so pages a week in addition to any bonus chapters he sometimes did which makes it around 90-100 pages a month on time with no delays. action scenes, detailed backdrops, double page spreads, entire armies fighting, the whole lot. jim lee could have done at least six issues of wildcats a year considering the amount of artists he could have picked to do pages if he was struggling, the problem for him and other guys like rob liefeld and some others who started to draw less and less was that they just didn't want to do it anymore. they left marvel and got paid more money for doing less work so of course we will never see those guys bust their asses on paper again unless their lives depended on it.
I was referring to the fact that Jim Lee seemed surprised that no one thought he could do 12 monthly issues. I respect his craftsmanship and I've always been a fan. So I wasn't criticizing his work, only pointing out why people might not have thought that he could do 12 monthly issues.
@Larry Lewis you got me there with that one but i'm sure you got the drift in reference to lee, liefeld, silvestri, portacio, mcfarlane, tan, finch, platt and any other image artist that has never had a long extended run on any title or often recruited other artists to do their jobs for them.
I remember a radio ad on a local rock station for Batman #608 and that it was being pushed that hard made me read it, and I loved the story... at the time. I don't know how it holds up today.
All these criticisms seem fair, but as an entry point these flaws weren’t that obvious. I remember really liking this book.
In short, it’s a really good book for people that haven’t read that many comics.
I worked in retail at the time. I'm not a fan of Loeb. I think he's lucked into getting top talent on his work which elevates it. Hush, like Long Halloween, suffered from a confusing mystery at it's core. Both are Whodunnits with Long Halloween being Everyonedunnit-but-not-sure-whodunwhat and Hush being a StillNotSureWhoDunnit.
To your point, I have several of friends who aren't such big fans but lover Hush so it works as you say.
I think Hush worked really well because it was a very accessible take on the character, while also touching on a massive amount of the mythos.
Kinda reminded me of the Arkham games.
Yeah, in one of Judd’s interviews he talked about how when he was reading Hush while it was coming out that he thought it was cool that Hush was actually Todd who had come back somehow. Then it turned out it wasn’t and a few years later he took that head canon he had and made it actual canon by pitching, then writing Under the Red Hood. It was a cool instance where a writer was a reader having some of thoughts as the audience, but actually in a position to make it reality.
Tyler Davis Nicholas Meyer was proof of that when he did Wrath of Khan.
He went on to call the dc animation people, pitching his comic and already came up with the differences that made the movie work better without context. They as you probably know, let him write the script. Judd really made it happen for himself.
Hush might be the perfect entry comic for Batman.
It's usually taken for granted, but Hush is such a great Batman sightseeing tour. Jim Lee's top notch art combined with Jeph Loeb's solid story (though I like Dark Victory better) and excellent characters rotation just freaking make an impression on you, while guiding you through Batman's exiting adventures.
No wonder this arc is one of typical entering points for many readers (was one of the first DC comics I've ever read). Even though detective aspect are, well, underwhelming.
I don't know how it worked in monthly format, but it's a good stuff to read in one sitting, especially when you're a newcomer
I'm a fan of Jim Lee and I enjoyed reading Batman: Hush. A lot of the insights shown here are spot on. Great job with this breakdown of the book.
I was a teenager when this was coming out and it was perfect to get me into comics...looking back there were way better Batman stories(before and after) but I was excited every month to read this book. Overrated? Yes but If I picked up the story again today I'm sure I would still have fun reading it.
As someone new to comics, I try to stay away from really hyped or glorified storyline when all I hear is praise. I know a piece of media can never be perfect, but when all I see online is praise for something, it's hard for me to control my expectations so I get scared of getting disappointed. Funnily enough, after hearing your criticism of this comic I'm actually more willing to actually read Hush and going in lower expectations that could be met or surpassed. So thank you for the discussion and great video!
You explaining the convoluted web of who's behind it all reminded me of this line of Agent Mahones from the show Prison Break (probably because I just did a binge of it recently) "That's pretty clever. The problem with being that clever (starts to sound deranged) is sometimes you get too clever for your own good!"
I enjoyed this as it came out, loved Lee's art, the idea of Tommy Elliot being the dark mirror of Bruce that wanted his parents dead is a good premise. With that said, dislike the Huntress redesign that came out of this and really wish Jason would be perma-killed again, a dead Robin helps raise the stakes.
What you said about bringing the big villains back for a year long run like Hush did, I would like that for X-Men (in an event where they're actual villains and not part of the mutant nation congress). There's so many forgotten X-villains that deserve another shot, like The Upstarts, Holocaust, The Externals, Mount Joy, Gene Nation, Azazel, The Nasty Boys, etc. that I'd almost want it as a mix, put in Magneto, Mystique, Sinister, Proteus, The Hellfire Club, The Sentinels, and intersperse the second stringers that could hit big with newer readers, like Fitzroy or Tetherblood or Sienna Blaze. Even Exodus and Stryfe have cool designs, interesting enough backstories to work with, but it doesn't feel like enough work has been done with them to make them A-list: Stryfe talks in dull exposition monolgues about how evil he is like a third rate Bond villain and has generically powerful abilities that don't have an interesting hook in their application and Exodus is just kind of there, he tends to be the buffer between using important villains, he has an interesting backstory as a curse french knight that was entombed and acting as the right hand of what he see's as great leaders, there's a lot to play with there that they just haven't in over 2 decades
I remember my one friend lending me the books at the time and I was kinda... I felt like I should have enjoyed it more than I did, since it was a big deal. Glad to know I was just into the art.
It also explains why it feels weird every time Hush shows up. The character himself is a jack in the box that has no meaning once he's sprung in the one story.
These podcasts have been enjoyable on the long drives. Thanks for doing these, Perch.
The problem is: I was a teenager when Hush came out and it was one of my first non-animated series views of Batman. I knew the Thomas reveal was messy. I know the idea is that he's a mirror to Batman, but with terrible morals. I just don't remember it being this poorly executed.
I am excited to hear you guys tackle Scott Pilgrim. The first volume was messy and I don't think O Malley though it would become as successful as it did, but it became more streamlined as it went on.
Even before a movie, Scott Pilgrim was probably the first example of a "free comic book day" comic getting through to me. It was nice back then when FCBD made new readers instead of just being another thing that scalpers and resellers try to ruin.
Glad you did this one, I need to go back and re-read this, I haven't read this since I was in High school, when it first released..I don't even remember all of it..
This is a comic made in all the right places all the way to the editors work on this story, Also thank god for Starkings to do that jumble of a mess in the last issue with Bats and Riddler with the dialogue that Loeb put out because good lord that was a mess at times.
I've just got the Deep Purple song in my head now.
Been reading comics for 30 years, LOVE this story, and probably always will
I bet Killer Croc is still looking for that money.
I understand and agree with alot of what you're saying, but I still like the Hush story. The Rian Johnson burns are 100% deserved, TLJ is trash.
I think that's harsh. At this point, Loeb was not only writing other comics but found out his son had bone cancer.
What's Johnson's excuse for _Brick_ ?
Hahaha I still watch Jim Lee drawing every now and then on twitch. I think Hush should be the foundation for the next "trilogy" of movies. To think Loeb is one of the great Batman writer
I see all the things you're guys are saying. I still love Hush. Enjoyed the video guys.
For some reason, modern writers have decided that they need to be "smarter" than their readers and, as such, the readers should never be able to figure out the resolution of the mystery before they reveal it. You can see this with JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, and especially in this book. As a consequence, the resolution of the mystery, which should make the reader go "Aha! It all makes sense now!" instead makes the reader go "Wait, what? Where did this come from?"
The general consensus I’m getting is that it’s a good starting point for new fans, but it’s nothing special for long time fans
I'd say that's more or less accurate yeah.
I enjoyed Hush but, structurally, it felt like treading the same ground as The Long Halloween. That's not to say it isn't worth reading. I love Jim Lee's art and the issues actually felt worth the money I invested in them as they were coming out. Not like today when I can read a modern tpb in the time it took to read 2 issues of Hush.
That' because Long Halloween, Hush and even Dark Victory do have the same structure. A mystery about a new villain,appearances by any character Loeb can cram into the story, some red herrings here and there and a big reveal at the end. Even his Red Hulk followed the same structure to some extent and it get repetitive after some point. We do get beautiful art by the top artist he usually work with like Lee and Sale
In that sense, Loeb's not different than, say, Dan Brown. Same story, different details.
@@drewtheunspoken3988
I have only read DaVinci's Code so I can't really comment on that, but unfortunately many writers do tend to go back to the same well too often and it becomes repetitive and eventually predictable.
My all time favorite Batman book
Hush definitely isn’t my favorite Batman story. Not even close. But it’s one of the books I always point people to if they are looking to start reading comics. The story is easy to follow if you are even a little familiar with Batman, there’s a ton of characters, and the art is obviously beautiful. As far as Hush goes, the superior story is Heart of Hush.
So many people in the comments who got into comics reading Hush. I also got into comics via batman, but for me it was Knightfall. Now I feel old, but also, happy, because I got the better intro.
Wow! Great video Perch! I was surprised with the video because I was anticipating that my favorite UA-camr covering my favorite comic would be more favorable. Haha. Oh well. You brought out some strong solid criticisms and I'm curious to re read it. I do think it's a fun jump on point for new readers. I've used hush just recently to get a guy hooked on comics. I also enjoy the adventure that the mystery takes you on! You go through high points of batman's life and feel the highs and lows as he tries to figure out what's going on around him. I'll give it though, when you talked out the ending and the whole reveal....it is a bit crazy. I loved the video regardless of my opinion! Solid discussion! Finally, I have a vote for grant morrison batman! Thanks Joe and Perch!
Thank you so much for taking the time to not only listen to the whole thing, but to write out such a thoughtful response. It's really appreciated! Grant's run on Batman is definitely something we've talked about too, and we'll probably be hitting on some of Grant's other work at some point as well.
@@jcoral1 Thank you for the excellent show! I cant wait for the next retrospective!
As a life long Batman fan Hush was also my entry into the main Continuity Batman Comics after which I read Under the Red Hood and then from the start of the Morrison run through the first few volumes of Tom King. As an intro I think it worked really well with all the recaps catching someone up to speed but, having gone back to it recently I can definitely see how it would be tedious for someone who was very familiar with the state of Batman at the time it came out. Nonetheless, I still appreciate it for what it is although I have noticed more flaws with it as the years have gone by. Great video overall!
This was the comic that changed me from being a Marvel Zombie to a broader comic book fan. I was about 16 or 17 when I read it. I know it’s not a strong story. But it was a massive event at that time. And I think Editorial changing their decision to make Hush Elliot instead of Jason Toad was what ruined the story.
I still really like this book... I would love to see you guys do a video on your favorite batman and superman stories though. lets do it!
I remember having a hard time finding that first issue. When I finally got one I enjoyed it. I wanted it for the Jim Lee art. I don't remember the story at all.
Would love to hear both of your opinions on any of the Teen Titans comics! I’ve only read the new 52 Teen Titans and the second follow up run but that’s it. Love the characters so I would definitively like to hear some thoughts on those or other stories!
Hush is fantastic and honestly one of my favorite comic stories of all time. But I forgive you Perch. Everyone has their bad opinions.
Never bet against Jim Lee, seems to be the lesson.
I think the Wayne family wealth goes back a few generations, they’ve always had money, the wealth wasn’t all created by Bruce’s father.
Interesting point; I'd thought the Wayne family was old money - so Thomas could conceivably have been a surgeon strictly because he enjoyed the challenge, and still had the kind of cash to have a mansion/butler etc. There was also going WAY back, the notion he was the first Batman and passed the mantle to his son at death - though that might be retconned non-canon. He could as a "master detective" had the head for business as well as medicine. Definitely better at one, but can do both. However; Thomas might not have been as exceptionally skilled as his son, who is more of a businessman as his cover in trade. That might be where the defense contract stuff comes into play, as means to ensure he always had X amount to spend on all those expensive-assed toys, and how they're created in the first place. Without reading too much into it, as far as reader effort goes. Still doesn't explain how he has all those billions to throw away - his economy is still serious borked vs budget when you factor in all that he has, versus all he SHOULD have based on realistic financial trends. (It's nothing by the way, just for those who might be wondering. The same as Oliver Queen, but at least they TRIED to address that - they still kind of failed to be honest, but it was attempted)
Didn't read the comic, did see the movie and thought the twist with the Riddler wasn't a bad take (contrived doesn't always mean bad) however if there were that many turns in the book, I'm glad I never tried to read it. (More a Marvel guy anyway, and a superman fan lol) * I do wish they'd sort the Robin/Kori'ander thing out. I like them as a couple, and they did already have a daughter * Sounds like there were A LOT of mental Jim-nastics involved and yep, you can go ahead and shoot me for that one.
Jim can’t help all the sexy but stuff he came up in the ‘90s lmao he’s actually holding back 😂😂
Yes, I'm glad that peeps other than me have such a frustrated reaction to this story. :)
Thanks, Joe! I have been wanting to get into Judge Dredd but have had no idea where to start.
No problem!
great video, jim lee will always be a great art inspiration for me but that's where it stops. would it be possible for you and joe to do a retrospective on the "fatal attractions" crossover for the x-series?
I have a couple of versions of this (trade & unwrapped) and honestly only bought it for the art (Jim, Scott, Alex). The story just never did it for me, not a huge fan of Loeb, but still better than most current day comics from the big 3.
I can appreciate a lot of what Hush tried to do, new baddie , adding lore, showing off some rogues gallery, 'shipping catwoman and batman , while still disliking the ride, entirely.
Dislike Hush character and how it undermines Bats detective-ness, and impo Hush's origin's are stupid, there I said it. Also, the make-sure-the-comic-goes-NOWHERE catwoman and batman disassembly. There's nothing brave about this, and perhaps illustrates the fatal flaw of many comics, in general. They're Simpsons episodes, one shots in time, instead of true Breaking Bad-like development, deliberate choices, and brave exploration. Afraid of change & character development in a stasis-creating serialized way.
All that said, I'm still kinda new to comics, so what do I know! I enjoy Batman comics, the most, so I'm glad I read it, either way.
My (used) trade has missing dialogue and missing ink layers on like 14 different pages, mostly towards the final third of the trade, which doesn't help my feelings about this particular story.
Then I read Heart of Hush by Dini, and loathed that even more, realizing, I just don't like Hush as a baddie, at all. Love Batman stories, in general, but not the Hush ones, for whatever reason.
Fun conversation, Perch!
Matt Wagner's Grendel, Hunter Rose
I love Superman/Batman Public Enemies thanks Joe
It's a good time!
I don’t think I’ve read *Hush* , I’ve read other stories with Hush as the villain, I think he’s in *Batman* *Eternal* isn’t he?
He was yeah. Paul Dini's Heart of Hush is the story people tend to say is his best outing.
54:59 It's to harsh to call it the Ryan Johnson of Batman. I don't see Batman throwing his batarang over his shoulder and then run off to drink alien swamp monster breast milk.
I really do enjoy your videos, Perch. You are extremely competent and intelligent. And my forthcoming question has little to do with this specific video about Hush, but rather refers to most of your videos.
Are there any modern-day or old-school comics that you enjoy? It just seems that you do not like almost everything you review or talk about. I do not mean any disrespect or offense. I am genuinely curious because considering the amount of time you invest in the comic book industry, it does not appear that there is much within the industry that you enjoy. There is just an overarching cynicism and pessimism in most of your content.
I do sincerely look forward to watching your future videos. And truly thank you for all of your content.
Try reading Batman and Robin the boy wonder by Frank Miller and Jim Lee.
Here is something interesting I noticed: there is a conspiracy in Gotham that involves all of Batman's villains he has to go through all of them in this long, epic story, and there's a hot new (or maybe not so new but new presentation) villain behind it all. Knightfall, Eternal, Hush. Very similar 3 books, almost a decade between each. I like Knightfall the most because it's more than just an excuse to have everything all at once, it's actually trying to tell a larger story about a character that I really like, Jean-Paul. I think my least favorite among them is Hush, but I still like the book for being really over the top and having a blockbuster feel to it. The plot makes 0 sense though, and the reveal was so obvious. Eternal has a much better mystery and reveal IMO, but it's also pretty bloated. I guess Long Halloween is kinda like that too, a big epic Batman story where you see all the villains and there's a conspiracy mystery, but for an early year Batman. I dislike Halloween though, it's every bit as dumb as Hush but everyone treats it like Year One or sth
Harley and Lois look great! 😜 I like the book, but I often find that people overate it.
It's great... only for newies.
OMG! Joe said Riddler sucks! OMG! We gotta have a fight!
Of course I'm kidding, but seriously Riddler can be a great character
I really liked him in Batman: TAS and he's gotta have some good comics, but they're harder to find than I'd like.
@@jcoral1 I get it. He definitely needs a stronger mainstream presence. Great Riddler stories by Chuck Dixon and by Paul Dini in Detective Comics are the easiest for me to recall. Also Zero Year.
And he is usually good outside comics. Not only in BTAS, but also in Batman Arkham and Telltale videgames, and in Gotham TV show (that apparently everyone hates, exept for me and another 3 people across entire internet).
Thanks for answering to my emotions outburst. Your thoughtful discussions with Perch and Thinking Critical are always a great delight to listen to. Best wishes!
@@as_the_sun_goes No problem at all! And thank you for the kind words, it's really appreciated. After writing that before I thought about that storyline in Dixon's Detective run from issues 705-707 with the Riddler putting a bomb in Cluemaster and that was a fun read for sure.
I thought Dark Knight, Dark City was a great Riddler story. Even if he was a little off character in that arc.
Located in the Tacoma area perch if u open your shop keep us posted love to come down buy some comics and talk some with u I’m a collector as well with a small channel hey I love what u do.......... I read about 4 issues of Batman hush and put it down after that smh it was a snooze fest
One series that I find similar to Hush is Marvel Knights Spider-Man, 12 issues where we see almost every classic character with a twist at the end, the difference is in Marvel Knights the story has interesting ideas in every issue and the events have some weight to them. I also think the art by the Dodsons is better than what Jim Lee did.
Overall it was a modern take on Spider-Man with some deconstruction but by the end it touched on what made the character who he is, I think Hush tried to approach Batman in a modern way but it really didn't have anything new and Batman was just boring.
So having listening to this now... I'm curious Perch, you sort of...not contradict yourself..but bring up a counter point to your sarcasm (which I loved). So you both made the sarcastic comment of this book *gasp* not switching artists or writers mid way...but then you say by the middle of this arc, it starts to look sloppy and 'phoned in' or clunky... So I'm wondering then if maybe switching artist wouldn't have been such a bad idea? If you have a book where you know it needs top tier, consistent art...would you rather have it degrade and be crap by the end? or have it be split between 2 or 3 artists, but each one gave his all? For myself, (and I don't even think the art takes that big of a hit) I think I'd still rather have one consistant art style though, and can over look a more flawed back half...
Well, Jim Lee talked about his style evolving, but more there were a couple of issues that seemed very messy. Rather than swap the artist, I would have rather had the artist get more lead time and be further along so no rush was needed.
Do Superman Batman run all of them lol
I don't think we ever will have a positive retrospective out of this show.
Legion was pretty positive. :)
6:45 do we see cyclops' phallic bulge in this picture?
The long halloween is a masterpiece. I don't care what anyone says. Hush is a okay story with really all time great art. Jim lee batman nuff said
I think hush reads a lot better with long halloween and dark victory
@Orion Pax I strongly disagree lol . People In literature praise the long halloween. Not to mention it created the trope of the rotating rogues gallery.
@Orion Pax if anything is average it's definitely the dark knight returns. The art isn't even very good. Batman year one is better in my opinion
@Orion Pax again the world of literature praises the long halloween. Not to mention it's huge influence on the dark knight trilogy. Which is far better than anything marvel could ever hope for. With the exception of the daredevil show. maybe people in the marvel world feel that way. Also I don't doubt the dark knight returns influence however . I just don't think it's aged as well as some people believe. It's no doubt very good and brought the dark tone and seriousness back to the character.(of note though Denny O'Neil brought a dark more serious tone as well, I'll also mention Doug Moenchs first run in the 80s) many people forget these things or are completely unaware of them.
@Orion Pax I appreciate your opinion I just disagree. I think to act like the long halloween is not good though, is a grave mistake.
Everyone Knew tommy was Hush except for a few writers at Wizard magazine that thought he might be a red herring .
Poor guys gave loeb too much credit there.,, not that I actually hate the story
I’ve heard many praises for this comic but as I’ve said before I’m not a DC person so I never read this.
A chore to read? Wow. Just wow. Stick to the back of cereal boxes then.
Young Lee looks so different.
Unpopular opinion, but I don't find Joker to be a very compelling character. He just involves too much suspension of belief. How does this madman go toe to toe with Batman? How does no one kill him when he kills people fairly indiscriminately? How does he keep getting goons despite often killing them?
Killer Croc is a giant monster, he's cool, he looks pretty durable, he looks like he can survive.
I definitely feel that there are a lot less great Joker stories than people make there out to be. I think the early Killer Croc stuff in particular is great stuff.
The art was exquisite; can't fault the art. Jim Lee can mime all he wants 👍
I get why you guys don't like the story. I enjoyed it for the most part (as much as anyone can enjoy something as convoluted as this).
UNTIL the absolutely LAME-ASS motivation of the main villain👎. He's out to get the son of the guy who saved his own father's life resulting in the villain having to wait a few years longer for his inheritance.
Is this the best they could come up with?!? There are 1000 word Fanfics with a better plot!
IMO this is one of the most overrated Batman stories ever
Still a good story, just not on the level of Long Halloween