A friend (heating engineer) once called me to borrow my fluke ground fault impedance tester, that I imported from the UK. A domestic hot air furnace wasn’t working, kept locking out on flame sensor. Ground impedance was high. Told him to find the ground electrode, and chuck 2 buckets of water over it. Had been a hot dry summer. 20 mins later the furnace worked as the leakage current of the flame sensor now flowed to ground properly. Client was told to get a spark out to look at improving the grounding so their protection and equipment worked. For those wondering I’m an ex uk sparky moved to Calgary, Canada. Where I’m now part owner of a 1000 strong consulting engineering firm, as an electrical instrumentation and controls designer.
One aspect of grounding that’s rarely discussed is what to do, when you have a building/structure on bedrock, or native soil has been removed. Establishing a ground around a HV transformer in such an install can be fun-not. You can’t bond to the rebar there so easily. One method I’ve used is to create wells of Bentonite Clay in the gravel backfill, where the ground rods are located. The Bentonite draws and holds moisture, lowering impedance of the ground literally. Expensive as hell, but got to be done. Did this on a $400 million dollar road tunnel under a runway, where the bedrock was only a few metres below the surface.
So this was on the table back in 2018 when I took my 18th, the guy over seeing the exam was also one of the writers of BS7671 and openly said "It's going to be in the 2nd Amendment and it's due to cost and time scale to replace all the aging distribution cables before the mass adoption of EV's". Now the part of retro fitting onto old systems - which was included back then appears to have been dropped from the 2nd Amendment. New builds is fine it's far more feasible to plan it into a new build than trying to retrofit onto inner city terraced properties where there's multiple other services.
Well if the power network wasn’t so greedy like all large companies, cutting corners to save money PME wouldn’t even be around. It’s all about the money and big companies just like the big white goods company’s have more clout behind them which means the little guy has to pick up the slack. Why because it’s cheaper and easier to implement
Interesting, here in Germany every building that was errected after 1980 must have a foundation earth electrode. Or a soil embedded ring earth electrode if ou build a waterproof concrete tanking, that's what you supposed to do when the groundwater level is high in the area and you're unable to longterm waterproof the cellar walls and floor using another method. How this earth electrode must be constructed is described in the DIN 18014. That this must be installed is in the DIN VDE 0100-540, VDE-AR-N 4100 and at last in the "technical connection conditions" of the DNOs (todays version is the TAB 2019). The VDE 0100 is the regulation, the VDE-AR are the application guidelines released by the VDE. Errection can be performed by an electrician or a specialist for protective measures against lightning strikes. The advantage of such an earth electrode is, it keeps the potential of a PEN close to earth potential. The more households are hooked up and the longer the cable run is, the more the potential of the PEN deviates from real earth potential. It also reduces the touchable voltage in case of a PEN fault.
@@efixx None of I know now for now. Maybe decreasing the tripping current of RCDs for bathroom circuits from 30 to 10mA (and only there to prevent nuissance tripping). That's what the VDE recommends for a few years now. The last big change was the AFDD introduction in 2019 regs, which was actually the second attempt of implementing them. The were first mentioned in the VDE 0100-420:2013-02. They were made mandatory in the version VDE 0100-420:2016-2, but the text of the regulation was so unspecific when to install one and when not, a lot of electricians complained and the AMEV (Working Group of Mechanical and Electrical Engineering for State and Local Governments) declared they won't consider this version of the regulation as "state-of-the-art", due to it is unspecific and the lack of market penetration of AFDDs. Also their practical interest is questionable. Letters of electricians which complained that the lobbyists worked the VDE to release this original reg, manufacturers are also in this commission. The AFDDs we have here are two units wide, like the standard RCD or RCBO. The AFDD contains protection against arc faults, MCB functionality and a 300 mA (!!) type A RCD. That means I have to integrate an additional RCD with 30mA tripping current. There are plug-in addons available, or you can do that separately, but with that the protection for one single phase circuit will be in the width between three-phase MCB and three-phase RCD (3 or 4 units wide, one unit is an ordinary MCB). And it doesn't matter which manufacturer you pick for AFDD in Europe, the detection technology is based on patents hold by Siemens. All manufacturers here have to pay license fees to them if they manufacture and sell AFDDs here in Europe. Now the reg states that in ordinary domestic dwellings for the bedrooms of the house AFDD protection is recommended, but not mandatory.
It often feels like the people involved in the wiring regulations changes are mainly in the business of making money off the changes. They keep making new editions so you have to requalify constantly. Sure, old salty sparkies who don't work safe are a liability but that's a separate issue to having a licence to print money by being the unchallenged authority over regulations.
There is a product on the market for this situation and it is called Condu-crete they also make something called a Condu-disc which doesn't erode way to nothing like an earth rod or earth mat
@@efixx This is just what I have been waiting to hear about using, in relation to that particular regulation as I have to dig up my drive soon and want to get ahead of the game, with a view to using the Condudisk approach (if appropriate) for "Islanding" in the event of a power cut (as well as mitigating a broken PEN conductor). If Condudisk (with Conducrete) are not appropriate, I need to understand the alternatives & none of the solar battery installers I have talked to so far seem to know what I am talking about to be able to advise. I look forward to the next video on this subject.
I could do with a regulation corner live stream with joe reading the regs as gaz peeks over his shoulder with a drink in hand in front of a fireplace with a picture over the top of the fireplace of joe sitting in the exact same room reading the regs. Not sure why……
America has been doing this for years. Building steel, concrete encased, water main and ground rods. Always have to have at least 2. And in America all detached buildings need a grounding electrode, even if being fed from another building.
So basically they want you put your own pen conductor in or 2 other ways if it's not domestic? So it wouldn't be treated as TT system and is there to reduce your ze. Going to be allot of ground logistics issues with the earth rods? So they now design ev chargers with no earth rod... to then throw this into the mix instead?
I suspect that - at least in part - the BS7671 authors are looking ahead to widespread adoption of vehicle-to-grid technology with the possibility of using the energy stored in the vehicle battery as a switched-alternative source (effectively a 'standby generator') OR, (more likely), as a long-term interconnected source with islanding capability during planned or unplanned DNO network outages. The use of V2G in this way requires that an independent measured earth electrode is provided. I get the impression that many countries outside the UK provide the earth electrode as standard and have done so for some time.
Joe why do you want neon screwdrivers taken out of circulation? Do believe they are dangerous?. From about the 1950s what did we have for testing? . Answer, we had nothing more than a crank operated continuity/ insulation resistance tester from mega and a neon screwdriver and if we were lucky enough we had a BM6 battery operated mega. Now we have fancy two pole voltage indicators and all bells and whistle’s MFTs the crank operated mega and neon screwdriver is now dangerous? Isn’t it true that the big manufacturers have forced the IET to draw up new regulations for testing so they can market and sell there new testers? Because before theses MFTs come on the market testing was nothing more than continuity test insulation resistance test and polarity test What is now referred to as Ze was given by the DNO and ZS was calculated RCDs were not common in domestic installations so we would never test them . I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this . I have had a neon screwdriver since I was 15 years old I was given it by my brother , and I have never ever had an electric shock from using it nor have I ever electrocuted myself wile using it . JW did a video on neon screwdrivers saying how dangerous they are so my question is why in gods name would someone like JW who has many many years of experience and knowledge demonstrate how they work and put his finger on the end of it to show how it lights up knowing that he could potentially kill him self? Your opinion will be much appreciated. Have a fantastic Christmas and new year.Hope to see more from team eFixx in 2022 I think this is a great topic for eFixx to delve deeper into, it was brought up in a conversation by a friend in my local club and thought if anyone can give a definitive answer you guys can .👍
Neon screwdrivers can lie. They can give both false positives and false negatives. I've seen an electrician depend on one and think that a circuit was getting power when in reality it was subject to a massive voltage drop. He wasn't carrying a volt meter and I gave him my Uni-T clamp meter in trade for a discount on the call-out.
eFIXX TV Now available on catch up - www.efixx.co.uk/efixxtv
A friend (heating engineer) once called me to borrow my fluke ground fault impedance tester, that I imported from the UK. A domestic hot air furnace wasn’t working, kept locking out on flame sensor. Ground impedance was high. Told him to find the ground electrode, and chuck 2 buckets of water over it. Had been a hot dry summer. 20 mins later the furnace worked as the leakage current of the flame sensor now flowed to ground properly. Client was told to get a spark out to look at improving the grounding so their protection and equipment worked.
For those wondering I’m an ex uk sparky moved to Calgary, Canada. Where I’m now part owner of a 1000 strong consulting engineering firm, as an electrical instrumentation and controls designer.
Great story Derrick we look forward to more from across the pond 👍
One aspect of grounding that’s rarely discussed is what to do, when you have a building/structure on bedrock, or native soil has been removed. Establishing a ground around a HV transformer in such an install can be fun-not. You can’t bond to the rebar there so easily.
One method I’ve used is to create wells of Bentonite Clay in the gravel backfill, where the ground rods are located. The Bentonite draws and holds moisture, lowering impedance of the ground literally. Expensive as hell, but got to be done.
Did this on a $400 million dollar road tunnel under a runway, where the bedrock was only a few metres below the surface.
Forgot I was watching an electrical youtube channel, the performance was A1
Oh stop. 😂
So this was on the table back in 2018 when I took my 18th, the guy over seeing the exam was also one of the writers of BS7671 and openly said "It's going to be in the 2nd Amendment and it's due to cost and time scale to replace all the aging distribution cables before the mass adoption of EV's". Now the part of retro fitting onto old systems - which was included back then appears to have been dropped from the 2nd Amendment. New builds is fine it's far more feasible to plan it into a new build than trying to retrofit onto inner city terraced properties where there's multiple other services.
Well if the power network wasn’t so greedy like all large companies, cutting corners to save money PME wouldn’t even be around.
It’s all about the money and big companies just like the big white goods company’s have more clout behind them which means the little guy has to pick up the slack. Why because it’s cheaper and easier to implement
Interesting, here in Germany every building that was errected after 1980 must have a foundation earth electrode. Or a soil embedded ring earth electrode if ou build a waterproof concrete tanking, that's what you supposed to do when the groundwater level is high in the area and you're unable to longterm waterproof the cellar walls and floor using another method. How this earth electrode must be constructed is described in the DIN 18014. That this must be installed is in the DIN VDE 0100-540, VDE-AR-N 4100 and at last in the "technical connection conditions" of the DNOs (todays version is the TAB 2019).
The VDE 0100 is the regulation, the VDE-AR are the application guidelines released by the VDE.
Errection can be performed by an electrician or a specialist for protective measures against lightning strikes.
The advantage of such an earth electrode is, it keeps the potential of a PEN close to earth potential. The more households are hooked up and the longer the cable run is, the more the potential of the PEN deviates from real earth potential. It also reduces the touchable voltage in case of a PEN fault.
Marcel you are ahead of us again - What new regs are coming in at the moment in Germany 🇩🇪?
@@efixx None of I know now for now. Maybe decreasing the tripping current of RCDs for bathroom circuits from 30 to 10mA (and only there to prevent nuissance tripping). That's what the VDE recommends for a few years now. The last big change was the AFDD introduction in 2019 regs, which was actually the second attempt of implementing them. The were first mentioned in the VDE 0100-420:2013-02. They were made mandatory in the version VDE 0100-420:2016-2, but the text of the regulation was so unspecific when to install one and when not, a lot of electricians complained and the AMEV (Working Group of Mechanical and Electrical Engineering for State and Local Governments) declared they won't consider this version of the regulation as "state-of-the-art", due to it is unspecific and the lack of market penetration of AFDDs. Also their practical interest is questionable. Letters of electricians which complained that the lobbyists worked the VDE to release this original reg, manufacturers are also in this commission.
The AFDDs we have here are two units wide, like the standard RCD or RCBO. The AFDD contains protection against arc faults, MCB functionality and a 300 mA (!!) type A RCD. That means I have to integrate an additional RCD with 30mA tripping current. There are plug-in addons available, or you can do that separately, but with that the protection for one single phase circuit will be in the width between three-phase MCB and three-phase RCD (3 or 4 units wide, one unit is an ordinary MCB).
And it doesn't matter which manufacturer you pick for AFDD in Europe, the detection technology is based on patents hold by Siemens. All manufacturers here have to pay license fees to them if they manufacture and sell AFDDs here in Europe.
Now the reg states that in ordinary domestic dwellings for the bedrooms of the house AFDD protection is recommended, but not mandatory.
Does this mean we have to spend another £80 on the wiring regs? Only just purchased the blue wiring regs book. Rip off as usual
It often feels like the people involved in the wiring regulations changes are mainly in the business of making money off the changes.
They keep making new editions so you have to requalify constantly.
Sure, old salty sparkies who don't work safe are a liability but that's a separate issue to having a licence to print money by being the unchallenged authority over regulations.
There is a product on the market for this situation and it is called Condu-crete they also make something called a Condu-disc which doesn't erode way to nothing like an earth rod or earth mat
We’ll have to get some in for a trial
- thanks 🙏
Have a look at the videos which John Ward did on this.
@@efixx This is just what I have been waiting to hear about using, in relation to that particular regulation as I have to dig up my drive soon and want to get ahead of the game, with a view to using the Condudisk approach (if appropriate) for "Islanding" in the event of a power cut (as well as mitigating a broken PEN conductor). If Condudisk (with Conducrete) are not appropriate, I need to understand the alternatives & none of the solar battery installers I have talked to so far seem to know what I am talking about to be able to advise.
I look forward to the next video on this subject.
@@efixx Joh Ward's ahead of you there. 😀 ua-cam.com/video/tYcXE9W2AKQ/v-deo.html
Called an Ufer ground in Canada.
Thanks for commenting 👍🏻
Thanks for all your videos Joe. Enjoy the break (or are you still demolishing your kitchen?)
I could do with a regulation corner live stream with joe reading the regs as gaz peeks over his shoulder with a drink in hand in front of a fireplace with a picture over the top of the fireplace of joe sitting in the exact same room reading the regs. Not sure why……
😂 We know what you mean, we'll see what we can do!
America has been doing this for years. Building steel, concrete encased, water main and ground rods. Always have to have at least 2. And in America all detached buildings need a grounding electrode, even if being fed from another building.
Very well explained and very interesting and informative.
Fantastic video Joe the live show last night was fantastic as always .👍👍👍👍❤️
So basically they want you put your own pen conductor in or 2 other ways if it's not domestic? So it wouldn't be treated as TT system and is there to reduce your ze. Going to be allot of ground logistics issues with the earth rods? So they now design ev chargers with no earth rod... to then throw this into the mix instead?
Yes it’s a bit of a oxymoron
Brilliant video packed full of informative tips but the chair seems a little stained ...
Tools spec?
0:40 - The earth rotates 366.25 times in a year. I don’t recon Phileas Fogg knew that either. 😉
So there now doing what I've said for years.... Even if you have PME system you still add a TT into it. Adding more redundancies.
Or instead of Pme ?
@@AndyK.1 The way it sounds to me is. Regardless of what earth system is present - a TT system must be added . Or am I wrong here.
Sounds interesting
Seems, like there is a lot potential 😏 in the upcoming year 😁
I suspect that - at least in part - the BS7671 authors are looking ahead to widespread adoption of vehicle-to-grid technology with the possibility of using the energy stored in the vehicle battery as a switched-alternative source (effectively a 'standby generator') OR, (more likely), as a long-term interconnected source with islanding capability during planned or unplanned DNO network outages. The use of V2G in this way requires that an independent measured earth electrode is provided. I get the impression that many countries outside the UK provide the earth electrode as standard and have done so for some time.
Great!
Joe why do you want neon screwdrivers taken out of circulation? Do believe they are dangerous?.
From about the 1950s what did we have for testing? .
Answer, we had nothing more than a crank operated continuity/ insulation resistance tester from mega and a neon screwdriver and if we were lucky enough we had a BM6 battery operated mega.
Now we have fancy two pole voltage indicators and all bells and whistle’s MFTs the crank operated mega and neon screwdriver is now dangerous?
Isn’t it true that the big manufacturers have forced the IET to draw up new regulations for testing so they can market and sell there new testers?
Because before theses MFTs come on the market testing was nothing more than continuity test insulation resistance test and polarity test
What is now referred to as Ze was given by the DNO and ZS was calculated RCDs were not common in domestic installations so we would never test them .
I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this .
I have had a neon screwdriver since I was 15 years old I was given it by my brother , and I have never ever had an electric shock from using it nor have I ever electrocuted myself wile using it .
JW did a video on neon screwdrivers saying how dangerous they are so my question is why in gods name would someone like JW who has many many years of experience and knowledge demonstrate how they work and put his finger on the end of it to show how it lights up knowing that he could potentially kill him self?
Your opinion will be much appreciated.
Have a fantastic Christmas and new year.Hope to see more from team eFixx in 2022
I think this is a great topic for eFixx to delve deeper into, it was brought up in a conversation by a friend in my local club and thought if anyone can give a definitive answer you guys can .👍
Neon screwdrivers can lie. They can give both false positives and false negatives. I've seen an electrician depend on one and think that a circuit was getting power when in reality it was subject to a massive voltage drop.
He wasn't carrying a volt meter and I gave him my Uni-T clamp meter in trade for a discount on the call-out.