1:53 You did NOT hallucinate that scene, girl. Alix did in fact whisper that question to Rose that it was weird and Rose responded that she thought it was so romantic. Alix is one of the only sane people on the whole show.
You just made me rewatch the episode and the only time she panics is when Alya jokingly suggests that Adrien would do to Marinette the same thing Chloe did to Kim but thank you because I noticed 2 more problems. 1. Marinette is all smiles around Kim (the way she acts around him makes them seem like friends, even) and even looks into the box that he is holding which in my opinion she should have hesitated to do because of her "trauma". Some would say they made up and Kim apologized but Kim didn't seem to feel remorse for what he did when he was retelling the story in derision so I don't think he apologized or even saw it as wrong. 2. It's weird that Alya never makes an out off pocket comment saying that Kim is getting karma or it's ironic that he's getting humiliated by Chloe like he humiliated Marinette. I would assume Alya would know about the prank since they're best friends 3. She also doesn't know everything about Adrien at this point because she's really only known him for a few days (I assume) so why would she risk telling him her feelings? It's ok if you like Marinette but don't defend the writers for their mediocre writing.
No hate course I'm down for a respectful discussion regarding this, that being said Marinette is far from a Mary Sue honestly and the arguments in this video to defame her character don't hold much water But it might be better if i cover this in a response video so i could really get my points in order
My bad. Halfway through the video I decided I didn't really want to try and determine whether she is a mary sue and I just wanted to talk about her character and that's what I did but I kept the original title. The is marinette a mary sue section is really the only one that is in line with the argument and I didn't give it a good conclusion. I'll just change the title. And you don't have to make a video to convince me she's not a mary sue, I've already watched a bunch of videos that analyze her character and give good evidence to support the claim that she is a mary sue. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion and can still make a response video if you want. Let me know if you do, I would love to hear the points that argue against this claim.
Yes, marinette is a bad character for many reasons👎 It broke my heart what thomas did to adrien when he made marinette date him💔 she does not deserve him whether as ladybug when she treats chat noir badly or as adrien for ruining his life🪦 Also, she does not like his true personality😔adrien deserves a girl who loves him for who he is and respects him. don't lie to him and don't be obsessed and stalker, and this made me hate her even more because she got him and she didn't deserve him😭
The worst is that she lied about his father… I never dated someone but who would want to be with someone lying to you all the time especially when it’s about you’re father ?
This whole thing was originally in response to your Adrien video but I felt it was more suited for this: I’ve seen similar hot takes on Miraculous on who of the two heroes should actually take center stage, often siding with Adrien. I mean, why not right? He’s the more troubled one with his sheltered upbringing and estranged relationship with his father. Said father turns out to be the primary antagonist of the series with the kid’s mother being the catalyst (not the Akuma) for the overarching plot. Plus, Plagg plays off him perfectly. What does Marinette have? A mad crush? Klutzy moments passed down by Usagi Tsukino herself? She’s got a healthy relationship with her family and Kwami so where’s the narrative tension? As far as Season One goes, we get basic superhero shenanigans with her often trying to avoid being exposed but there is some subtle growth to her. In “Origins,” we see Marinette not as Ladybug when first facing Stoneheart but as Marinete in a red suit with black spot. All the while, Adrien has embraced his Chat Noir persona fully with flirt to spare. As she tells her partner, she’s “super clumsy.” Marinette prods herself into the superhero role more than she takes charge, repeating tells herself to trust herself. Of course, she proves to be a natural with her Lucky Charm and MacGuyvering skills to help recover Ivan quickly. Yet when she seems to come out on top and growing into her own superhero persona up, her oversight in not purifying the Akuma rears its ugly head. Suddenly, her self-doubts pulls her back and make her renounce Tikki. Come Part 2, Marinete find Alya in imminent danger and decides that she can’t not be a hero anymore. This is symbolized in the proper debut of her full transformation sequence compared to her first one that was totally rushed. This time she is Ladybug, crafting a new identity that’s far more empowered than the normal girl with a normal life she usually is. She throws Hawk Moth’s declaration of war back in his face of butterflies, purifying them all at once. To top it off, she performs her very first Miraculous Ladybug to fix the damage. Ladybug was born at last while Adrien took to being Chat Noir like Plagg to cheese. However, we still get subtle moments of Ladybug’s Marinette poking out such as in “The Bubbler” where she has a Lucky Charm used more selfishly. However, she’s quick to regret the waste of power more than others might’ve. It’s actually clear why Marinette was never seen as Ladybug’s true identity with how un-Marinette Ladybug is. I could go on but I’d largely be repeating points I made in my previous post on Miraculous’s episodic story structure being a feature and less a flaw. I will say that throughout Season One, both Marinette and Adrien don’t have a Zordon-like figure to answer to. They don’t have somebody to prompt them into fighting villains. Similar to Code Lyoko, these kids just choose to save the world. This is important because it is what Master Fu needed from those bearing the most powerful Miraculous from his Order. Those who do it not for the glory or on anybody’s orders but rather because they know its the right thing to do. He didn’t have them answer to him for any guidance or training (yet) but rather planted the seeds so they may cultivate themselves. Thus by the end of Season One, Marinette was ready to meet the Guardian after proving herself more than worthy and commence her true character arc. Throughout Season Two and Three, we see Marinette clearly being close with Master Fu. Close enough that when in “Sapotis,” she doesn’t need any of the Miraculous explained to her in the moment since he clearly gave a rundown on them in the event new heroes were needed. What he helped with here was her judgement in who could worthy of such great powers and which powers at that. This further continues with how “Kwamibuster” shows her pulling over a gambit that relied heavily on her knowledge of each Miraculous, utilizing the Mouse’s completely out of the blue as if it were second nature. This not only helped secure her secret identity more but it demonstrated her potential as a Guardian to Master Fu. Thus helping to cement his decision in “Feast.” It’s not immediately apparent since it can feel like the typical Mentor offer the token guidance but then we come to Miracle Queen. Pressed to protect the Miracle Box, Jade Turtle passed the title of Guardian to Ladybug. Not just because his options were limited but because he truly believes in her. His memory loss even falls under the “Mentor Death” trope to top it all off. Normally, that’d cap off her Hero’s Journey but far from it. Season Four has certainly delivered on this by having Ladybug truly feel the pressures of not only safeguarding one or two Miraculous but all of them from the more powerful Shadow Moth. “Truth” and “Gang of Secrets” are notable in how they show just how much of a toll this takes on her life as Marinette. And with Chat Noir feeling out of her loop, I’d say her troubles are just beginning. That’s as spoiler-y as I’ll get. However, lest we forget how “Timetagger” showed that Ladybug would lead a team of superheroes well into adulthood. Marinette isn’t just a good protagonist for Miraculous but a great one too. She starts out fairly “Vanilla” but that ice cream gets decorated into an ice cream sundae full of heart and charm. Would the show centering around Adrien be a good angle to approach it from too? Um… yeah, sure. But it wouldn’t be the Miraculous that I continue to enjoy myself. Marinette Dupain-Cheng is why the show works more than it has any right to. Adrien’s role for this is honestly better reserved for the big WHAM moments within Marinette’s more down-to-Earth life (as heroes go).
I think I mention this in one of my videos but I initially really liked how they were both important in season one because I think the way they parallel each other was really nice. My frustration is that the writer's butchered her character and pushed adrien into the sidelines for what they think is feminism. So I have to disagree that Marinette is a great protagonist for Miraculous. Her writing in season one and two was strong but it's just gone downhill from there. She could have been a great protagonist, but the writers blatant favoritism and refusal to let her face consequences for her mistakes, acknowledge them, and learn from them really screws over her character. That is why I cannot put her in the same category as great protagonists. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion tho and thx for watching.
@@thexreaderspeaks The increased importance of Ladybug is kind of the point of the escalation battle against Hawk Moth. Especially in Season 4 where a very intentional subplot is Chat Noir feels alienated due to Ladybug's being mad Guardian on top of the new heroes she adds to their ranks. At first, she only had one hero as a partner. Blunt force to compliment her more strategic mind. It's Season 4's finale where she loses everything that it clicks for Adrien. This isn't the time to act like he's the only one with problems especially when confidentiality is essential against an empath of an enemy. In fact, this is why he gives Plagg the ring and allows him to go to Ladybug for her confrontation with Monarch. He's in no condition to properly wield the power of Destruction and has to put the greater good first. I feel this slow burn approach works for Adrien, especially since Lila as the new Moth Holder will have Gabriel being Monarch is her back pocket to use against Ladybug. I just feel you leave out a bit of context.
@@matt0044 you can't convince me that the writers had to write it that way because the miraculous movie written by Jeremy Zag allowed both heroes to be present for the fight and it was infinitely better even though it was rushed. One of the head writers of the series has made it clear that he wants Mari to be more loved, so he does whatever he can to make sure that happens and her character suffers as a result. You don't have to see it that way tho. Maybe we just see things differently and that's ok. I think most fans including me feel cheated out of an emotional payoff (when it comes to the ending) that was promised to us. This is mostly because Adrien finding out that his father is the terrorist would have been such a powerful moment. It won't hit the same when he does find out in the series that his dad was monarch coz he can't even confront him about it. So in the end the certain writer's favoritism of Mari negatively impacts the story.
@@thexreaderspeaks I mean... the movie is the movie and the show is the show. The movie spedrun Gabriel's time as a villain where he akumatizes himself for the final boss after a timeline shorter than Season 1. By comparison, the show took a different direction and for the best since the movie just being the show but shorter would've been boring. In retrospect, it’s pretty clear why Adrien wasn’t there to learn Monarch was his father in The Final Day. I was weirded out by that myself buuuuuuut my thoughts came to realize how it worked. Namely because “Chat Blanc” and “Ephemeral” each explained why. His intense emotions over seeing his mother and learning his father became a villain in order to save her would be too good of an opportunity to akumatize him against Ladybug. Thus Adrien benching himself is essentially the reason why Marinette was able to knock the Moth Miraculous off Gabriel and talk him down. However… this only means that there’s an extra layer of despair painted upon what would’ve been Adrien’s angst over his father’s dark secret. Clearly, his father’s “sacrifice” is what keeps him going in believing his final moments were heroic. So what happens when Adrien learns that not only was his father trying to bring back Emilie and became a villain to do so but that he also went out after causing Operation: Alliance to start with. No way to confront his father about this reveal and even Nathalie would be hard pressed for a straight answer. Hell, I can imagine him crossing the line and forcing Plagg to spill the beans at his direct command. He and Marinette have been good in never, if ever, enforcing rules upon Tikki or Plagg so… woo. And with Lila likely possessing this information be it from what Hoaxer got out of Nathalie or Nooroo, something tells me that we’re in for something far, FAR worse than Chat Blanc if that’s even feasibly possible. Perhaps only that the Lucky Charm can’t easily undo. Aaaaaaaaaand that’s why there was more of a benefit to keep Adrien to the side for Season 5’s finale. If you can’t feel the storm that’s slowly brewing, better get an umbrella now.
@@matt0044 I mean, I guess it could lead to a big blowup and maybe an even better emotional payoff if the writers stick to it (Tho given their track record I don't have much trust in them to write sth good). However, I still think the ending is just bad writing. Let me know how they build off of it tho(if you want to of course) coz I rage quit the show years ago.
1:24 what do you mean physically abusive you could argue in Glaciator but like he was Harassinv her at that point 1:27 Hypocrital well you could argue about that however it's not all black and white in some situations like Chloè chose to reveal identity and endanger people whilst the rest of the of holders apart Kagami didn't do it willingly 3:16 well she is doing it to show Children what not to do she pretty never gets closer with Adrien ahe does it and in the Season 4 Finale Alya calls her out it saying she has gone to far with it and she realises her mistakes and stops trying to control her while her conseqences does get her in Jail does not mean she has no conseqences 3:37 It's not Justified does the episode show us why she is like this yes does it make what she did 1:38 Adrien,Alya and Tikki have never been demonized 4:32 yeah the biggest retcon in this show Not as bad Representation or Stormy weather 6:53 well those all come from the miraculous anyone in possesion can do that if they want to and Gabriel also used serveral miraculouses too the only reason she lasted longer is because she was spilt into different copies of the indivdual so she was only using 2 at a time for each copy 9:13 she does faces conseqences just not in the you way want her to face conseqences so instead of like getting people screaming her or getting she like works on herself and tries to fix what she has done or Volpina where Adrien calls her out in the park and Lila is still against her 10:08-11:05 Adrien as Adrien and Adrien as Cat noir is still very much the real Adrien and she does try to get to know him better and help each other with each others struggles like the only parts I like about Derision is the end where Marinette is reach her hand but isn't ready yet and she also tries to help him stand up to his Father 11:41 it's fine but a bit plain for her this is why I prefer her newer outfit in Season 6 aprt from the shorts with tights new shirt and jacket with her old pants sold 13:30 uhm Questionable
1. I've seen her hit cat noir with her yoyo quite a few times but yes, glaciator is excusable coz cat noir was harassing her 2. It doesn't matter whether they revealed their identity willingly or not because that doesn't change the fact that their identity is known. There are no ifs and buts in the rule that has been reiterated by ladybug more than once. In Kagami's case, ladybug went against the rule for selfish reasons: to get her away from Adrien. So ya, hypocritical. 3. If a bad behavior is almost never corrected (until the writers get backlash for it) then it shows that teaching children to not do that wasn't the intention. Thomas doesn't think her stalking is bad btw. They almost never show her facing consequences for her stalking and realizing that its a problem due to the consequences. As a matter of fact, as of season 5 finale, she gets the guy. So most kids prolly won't see much of a problem with her behavior 4. The writers making that episode after Marinette was losing popularity and they were getting backlash for her writing suggests that they were trying to justify her actions 5. I was mostly talking about Su Han tbh but ig your right tho they rarely ever call her out. 6. Sorry I don't understand your sentence 7. Yeah the powers come from the miraculous but who made it that way? My video is critiquing the writers who wrote Marinette just as much as it's critiquing Marinette. 8. Yeah I think I mention Volpina being one of the only times she faces consequences and that was season one. I'm pretty sure I also praise the character writing in szn 1 and 2. She barely ever faces consequences to that degree until Felix steals all the miraculous. And no, the consequences I want her to face are not people screaming at her (I don't know where you got that), I want her neglect of chat noir to cause him to leave, her stalking tendencies to have people call her out and Adrien to avoid her coz he's creeped out, her hypocrisy to cause characters who are presented as good people to no longer like her (creates more nuance than if an already bad character starts hating her) things like those that make sense narratively. I don't want her to suffer for the sake of suffering, I want her consequences to be a direct result of sth wrong she did that makes sense narratively. 9. Adrien as Adrien constantly complains about not feeling free and he even tries to suggest to Kagami when they were a thing that the persona he presents to the world is what his father wants him to be but not who he really is (when Kagami tells him to stop being silly) so I don't agree that that's also his real self. As someone with strict parents I understand how you can hide all the parts that make you who you really are but hate every part of that fake persona. while Mari does try to know him better, you can't tell me that she isn't in love with an idealized version of him (that's what most crushes, unless the person is your friend, usually cause) 10. I still think they could have tried harder with her new fit because may I repeat, she is an aspiring fashion designer and shorts and tights are just not stylish (coming from someone who used to think they were the epitome of fashion) It looks cute but it doesn't tell us anything about her character. 11. Don't quote me on it but it's widespread speculation and Mari's father is literally called Tom and Thomas even has another self insert in the show so I don't think it's really far fetched that Mari is allegedly his imaginary daughter with his ex.
Furthermore, the Mary Sue thing? That's a really shaky foundation, using something that has been historically been massively sexist. Often putting female characters under the sort of scrutinity male characters of similar traits (though not always the same beat for beat) would get to such intensity. I recommend Trope Talk's video on the matter: ua-cam.com/video/H2-GIY9RTqU/v-deo.html But no, Marinette is not a Mary Sue. You can dislike her characterization or how her character journey shakes out but a lot of the usual Mary Sue accusation do not hold water.
I admit that my argument for her being a mary sue wasn't very strong and that's coz the entire video was supposed to dissect that but halfway through I decided I just wanted to talk about her character. I already know where I stand on that argument coz I've watched quite a few video essays that have proved their claims with receipts. I have also watched the video you recommended and it just solidifies my initial view of Marinette. She is a mary sue. Not because she's overpowered(I mention that a good chunk of my fav characters are op), not because she's a female character (I am someone who will go above and beyond to defend female character but I will still call out bad writing), but coz certain show writers will go above and beyond to ensure Marinette is seen as the best (class rep, loved by everyone except villains, strongest powers even tho ladybug and cat miraculous are supposed to be equal, implied to have nothing to learn from Su Han in being a guardian even tho he's been in that game longer, etc) regardless of whether they have to retcon info (her backstory that was included after the writers received backlash for portraying her as a stalker and etc), strip characters of their character arcs and personalities (adrien, kagami, chloe) or tell us she's just so great that she can make magical charms because the power was always within her. I think it's also ironic that the top comment on that video has quite a few people who are claiming that she is a mary sue after watching the video. Idc if you like her, you can do that, and you can also believe what you want to believe about her characterization, but I do think she's a mary sue and that video and the comments reinforce my belief.
@@thexreaderspeaks I hope my comments aren't terribly antagonistic. I just... feel like there's an imbalance when it comes to discussion about Miraculous. Especially when it feels less like judging the series for what it is and more so for what it isn't yet never claimed to be.
@@matt0044 Oh they're not. I made this channel to have such discussions so it's ayt. And ya, I agree that most people can be biased against Miraculous but I think it's because the writers have lost our trust and constantly spit in our faces (especially when a certain head writer goes as far as trying to gaslight chloe fans coz the wanted a redemption arc, he's rude to people who have a differing opinion about the direction the show should take, and there are constant nonsensical retcons). The miraculous writers constantly fail their audience and I think that's why said audience is so critical of it. The magic system and premise is really good (The characters are also really lovable in szn one and two) and make the show have so much potential to be someday in the same league as Avatar the last airbender so I think seeing the writers constantly fumble that bag is what makes people frustrated because they see what it could have been.
@@thexreaderspeaks First: I don't like the "next Avatar" comment because it feels like there's this standard Miraculous never set out to meet. Have they really failed us or are we not willing to meet them in the middle? Second: Chloe’s Failed Redemption Arc works and is something we don’t get very often. Now… I get why some might’ve felt cheated out of a redemption arc they were getting into around Season 2. There is a compelling story about “the worst” given a chance to actually reflect upon herself and become better despite how low she could go. However, I can’t hate how her corruption arc turned out because of how well it was handled. Sometimes, a slowburn reformation can make for an interesting story but something that’s equally valuable can be how not everyone sticks the landing. Be it circumstances or their own undoing, some people will turn back around and decide that bettering themselves isn’t worth it. Like it or not, Season 2′s finale showed her willing to be a team player yet still be a bit of a glory hog vs-a-vie insisting on her hero name above all else. While a small gag, her forgetting the magic words shows that she’s not exactly has been working on her better nature. Come Season 3, we get moments from various episodes where she insists to Ladybug on getting in on the action. They’re small moments that can be viewed mostly in any order starting with “Bakerix” having her ask Chat if Queen Bee could get in on this. With my order on Netflix, “Miracular” showed her already breaking out the Bee Signal when new reporters mentioned Carapace and Rena Rogue. Though Ladybug lays down how this was to be Queen Bee’s last hurrah, we end on Chloe refusing to accept it. Her exact words being, “I will always be Queen Bee.” After this we get Stormy Weather 2 and StarTrain where she’s hoping to wear down Ladybug. Even with the Horse Miraculous, she was turned down when trying to put her hero on the spot around others. Thus Heart Hunter is the straw that breaks the camel’s back. This wasn’t out of nowhere nor an arbitrary decision from the writers just because. She had a good heart, yes, but her self-centered nature tipped the scales when Hawk Moth offered her not just her Miraculous but EVERY Miraculous in the box.
I also have a bone to pick with the whole Thomas Astruc drama llamas. Especially with theimmaturityofthomasastruc by far. Maybe at some point and time it was about conducting criticism towards a creator that appeared to be too fussy towards their fans. Now? It's "Oh, look. Thomas made a social faux-pas. Thomas blocked you like literally any other Twitter user would. Thomas doesn't listen to criticism that comes from a place of unchecked anger." It reduces a human who's... just a dude at the end of the day into a fandom punching back. I saw this with Steven Moffat when his Doctor Who run was going and the fandom got BAD. Lies, misinformation, quotes taken out of context from years ago, etc. It was cancel culture before it was cool. Like... I might be hypocritical for this because I've fallen down the Lily Orchard rabbit hole myself. But Lily is somebody going beyond having bad takes and has displayed a pattern of toxicity in her relationships as well as with her own fans. Thomas Astruc? I don't agree with all that he writes, barring the times he had to appease the multiple production teams Miraculous acquired, buuuuuuuut he's generally just some guy. Hell, he's pretty far left if you took the time to look at his Twitter feed (not that politics and morality always overlap). Until tangible accusations come forth about him, I'm sorry to say that theimmaturityofthomasastruc is, well, ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. And NO, that one video essay about the woes of the Miraculous fandom isn't going to sway me. I am done, done, done, dooooooooooooone with giving this kind of discourse the time of day. Especially when similar cases in other fandoms have turned well and truly ugly. I beseech the Miraculous fandom to see the red flags that have been waving this whole time. Somebody is going to get hurt. I have seen it all before. So should you. This Scapegoat Showrunner phenomenon had done too much damage to many fandoms.
1:53 You did NOT hallucinate that scene, girl. Alix did in fact whisper that question to Rose that it was weird and Rose responded that she thought it was so romantic. Alix is one of the only sane people on the whole show.
Why do you think she gets the rabbit?
4:51 I did notice her panicking in that episode, but I think that was about it
You just made me rewatch the episode and the only time she panics is when Alya jokingly suggests that Adrien would do to Marinette the same thing Chloe did to Kim but thank you because I noticed 2 more problems.
1. Marinette is all smiles around Kim (the way she acts around him makes them seem like friends, even) and even looks into the box that he is holding which in my opinion she should have hesitated to do because of her "trauma". Some would say they made up and Kim apologized but Kim didn't seem to feel remorse for what he did when he was retelling the story in derision so I don't think he apologized or even saw it as wrong.
2. It's weird that Alya never makes an out off pocket comment saying that Kim is getting karma or it's ironic that he's getting humiliated by Chloe like he humiliated Marinette. I would assume Alya would know about the prank since they're best friends
3. She also doesn't know everything about Adrien at this point because she's really only known him for a few days (I assume) so why would she risk telling him her feelings?
It's ok if you like Marinette but don't defend the writers for their mediocre writing.
No hate course I'm down for a respectful discussion regarding this, that being said Marinette is far from a Mary Sue honestly and the arguments in this video to defame her character don't hold much water
But it might be better if i cover this in a response video so i could really get my points in order
My bad. Halfway through the video I decided I didn't really want to try and determine whether she is a mary sue and I just wanted to talk about her character and that's what I did but I kept the original title. The is marinette a mary sue section is really the only one that is in line with the argument and I didn't give it a good conclusion. I'll just change the title. And you don't have to make a video to convince me she's not a mary sue, I've already watched a bunch of videos that analyze her character and give good evidence to support the claim that she is a mary sue. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion and can still make a response video if you want. Let me know if you do, I would love to hear the points that argue against this claim.
Yes, marinette is a bad character for many reasons👎 It broke my heart what thomas did to adrien when he made marinette date him💔 she does not deserve him whether as ladybug when she treats chat noir badly or as adrien for ruining his life🪦 Also, she does not like his true personality😔adrien deserves a girl who loves him for who he is and respects him. don't lie to him and don't be obsessed and stalker, and this made me hate her even more because she got him and she didn't deserve him😭
The worst is that she lied about his father…
I never dated someone but who would want to be with someone lying to you all the time especially when it’s about you’re father ?
Umm she’s not that bad no offense, but you do have a good point
Great video! Marrinette/Ladybug is a bad character wasted by Thomas’ terrible writing and her Dersion backstory is such BS.
Thank you! I was starting to think my video ended up on the wrong side of youtube
What do you guys think about this character?
She is my favourite character
@@IshikaGiri-vs5qkmine too
Guys the show isn’t cannon to miraculous the movie clearly is
This whole thing was originally in response to your Adrien video but I felt it was more suited for this:
I’ve seen similar hot takes on Miraculous on who of the two heroes should actually take center stage, often siding with Adrien.
I mean, why not right? He’s the more troubled one with his sheltered upbringing and estranged relationship with his father. Said father turns out to be the primary antagonist of the series with the kid’s mother being the catalyst (not the Akuma) for the overarching plot. Plus, Plagg plays off him perfectly.
What does Marinette have? A mad crush? Klutzy moments passed down by Usagi Tsukino herself? She’s got a healthy relationship with her family and Kwami so where’s the narrative tension?
As far as Season One goes, we get basic superhero shenanigans with her often trying to avoid being exposed but there is some subtle growth to her.
In “Origins,” we see Marinette not as Ladybug when first facing Stoneheart but as Marinete in a red suit with black spot. All the while, Adrien has embraced his Chat Noir persona fully with flirt to spare.
As she tells her partner, she’s “super clumsy.”
Marinette prods herself into the superhero role more than she takes charge, repeating tells herself to trust herself. Of course, she proves to be a natural with her Lucky Charm and MacGuyvering skills to help recover Ivan quickly.
Yet when she seems to come out on top and growing into her own superhero persona up, her oversight in not purifying the Akuma rears its ugly head. Suddenly, her self-doubts pulls her back and make her renounce Tikki.
Come Part 2, Marinete find Alya in imminent danger and decides that she can’t not be a hero anymore. This is symbolized in the proper debut of her full transformation sequence compared to her first one that was totally rushed.
This time she is Ladybug, crafting a new identity that’s far more empowered than the normal girl with a normal life she usually is. She throws Hawk Moth’s declaration of war back in his face of butterflies, purifying them all at once. To top it off, she performs her very first Miraculous Ladybug to fix the damage.
Ladybug was born at last while Adrien took to being Chat Noir like Plagg to cheese.
However, we still get subtle moments of Ladybug’s Marinette poking out such as in “The Bubbler” where she has a Lucky Charm used more selfishly. However, she’s quick to regret the waste of power more than others might’ve. It’s actually clear why Marinette was never seen as Ladybug’s true identity with how un-Marinette Ladybug is.
I could go on but I’d largely be repeating points I made in my previous post on Miraculous’s episodic story structure being a feature and less a flaw. I will say that throughout Season One, both Marinette and Adrien don’t have a Zordon-like figure to answer to. They don’t have somebody to prompt them into fighting villains. Similar to Code Lyoko, these kids just choose to save the world.
This is important because it is what Master Fu needed from those bearing the most powerful Miraculous from his Order. Those who do it not for the glory or on anybody’s orders but rather because they know its the right thing to do. He didn’t have them answer to him for any guidance or training (yet) but rather planted the seeds so they may cultivate themselves.
Thus by the end of Season One, Marinette was ready to meet the Guardian after proving herself more than worthy and commence her true character arc.
Throughout Season Two and Three, we see Marinette clearly being close with Master Fu. Close enough that when in “Sapotis,” she doesn’t need any of the Miraculous explained to her in the moment since he clearly gave a rundown on them in the event new heroes were needed. What he helped with here was her judgement in who could worthy of such great powers and which powers at that.
This further continues with how “Kwamibuster” shows her pulling over a gambit that relied heavily on her knowledge of each Miraculous, utilizing the Mouse’s completely out of the blue as if it were second nature. This not only helped secure her secret identity more but it demonstrated her potential as a Guardian to Master Fu. Thus helping to cement his decision in “Feast.”
It’s not immediately apparent since it can feel like the typical Mentor offer the token guidance but then we come to Miracle Queen. Pressed to protect the Miracle Box, Jade Turtle passed the title of Guardian to Ladybug. Not just because his options were limited but because he truly believes in her. His memory loss even falls under the “Mentor Death” trope to top it all off.
Normally, that’d cap off her Hero’s Journey but far from it.
Season Four has certainly delivered on this by having Ladybug truly feel the pressures of not only safeguarding one or two Miraculous but all of them from the more powerful Shadow Moth. “Truth” and “Gang of Secrets” are notable in how they show just how much of a toll this takes on her life as Marinette. And with Chat Noir feeling out of her loop, I’d say her troubles are just beginning.
That’s as spoiler-y as I’ll get. However, lest we forget how “Timetagger” showed that Ladybug would lead a team of superheroes well into adulthood.
Marinette isn’t just a good protagonist for Miraculous but a great one too. She starts out fairly “Vanilla” but that ice cream gets decorated into an ice cream sundae full of heart and charm. Would the show centering around Adrien be a good angle to approach it from too? Um… yeah, sure.
But it wouldn’t be the Miraculous that I continue to enjoy myself. Marinette Dupain-Cheng is why the show works more than it has any right to. Adrien’s role for this is honestly better reserved for the big WHAM moments within Marinette’s more down-to-Earth life (as heroes go).
I think I mention this in one of my videos but I initially really liked how they were both important in season one because I think the way they parallel each other was really nice. My frustration is that the writer's butchered her character and pushed adrien into the sidelines for what they think is feminism. So I have to disagree that Marinette is a great protagonist for Miraculous. Her writing in season one and two was strong but it's just gone downhill from there. She could have been a great protagonist, but the writers blatant favoritism and refusal to let her face consequences for her mistakes, acknowledge them, and learn from them really screws over her character. That is why I cannot put her in the same category as great protagonists. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion tho and thx for watching.
@@thexreaderspeaks The increased importance of Ladybug is kind of the point of the escalation battle against Hawk Moth. Especially in Season 4 where a very intentional subplot is Chat Noir feels alienated due to Ladybug's being mad Guardian on top of the new heroes she adds to their ranks. At first, she only had one hero as a partner. Blunt force to compliment her more strategic mind.
It's Season 4's finale where she loses everything that it clicks for Adrien. This isn't the time to act like he's the only one with problems especially when confidentiality is essential against an empath of an enemy.
In fact, this is why he gives Plagg the ring and allows him to go to Ladybug for her confrontation with Monarch. He's in no condition to properly wield the power of Destruction and has to put the greater good first.
I feel this slow burn approach works for Adrien, especially since Lila as the new Moth Holder will have Gabriel being Monarch is her back pocket to use against Ladybug.
I just feel you leave out a bit of context.
@@matt0044 you can't convince me that the writers had to write it that way because the miraculous movie written by Jeremy Zag allowed both heroes to be present for the fight and it was infinitely better even though it was rushed. One of the head writers of the series has made it clear that he wants Mari to be more loved, so he does whatever he can to make sure that happens and her character suffers as a result. You don't have to see it that way tho. Maybe we just see things differently and that's ok.
I think most fans including me feel cheated out of an emotional payoff (when it comes to the ending) that was promised to us. This is mostly because Adrien finding out that his father is the terrorist would have been such a powerful moment. It won't hit the same when he does find out in the series that his dad was monarch coz he can't even confront him about it. So in the end the certain writer's favoritism of Mari negatively impacts the story.
@@thexreaderspeaks I mean... the movie is the movie and the show is the show. The movie spedrun Gabriel's time as a villain where he akumatizes himself for the final boss after a timeline shorter than Season 1.
By comparison, the show took a different direction and for the best since the movie just being the show but shorter would've been boring.
In retrospect, it’s pretty clear why Adrien wasn’t there to learn Monarch was his father in The Final Day. I was weirded out by that myself buuuuuuut my thoughts came to realize how it worked.
Namely because “Chat Blanc” and “Ephemeral” each explained why.
His intense emotions over seeing his mother and learning his father became a villain in order to save her would be too good of an opportunity to akumatize him against Ladybug.
Thus Adrien benching himself is essentially the reason why Marinette was able to knock the Moth Miraculous off Gabriel and talk him down.
However… this only means that there’s an extra layer of despair painted upon what would’ve been Adrien’s angst over his father’s dark secret. Clearly, his father’s “sacrifice” is what keeps him going in believing his final moments were heroic.
So what happens when Adrien learns that not only was his father trying to bring back Emilie and became a villain to do so but that he also went out after causing Operation: Alliance to start with. No way to confront his father about this reveal and even Nathalie would be hard pressed for a straight answer.
Hell, I can imagine him crossing the line and forcing Plagg to spill the beans at his direct command. He and Marinette have been good in never, if ever, enforcing rules upon Tikki or Plagg so… woo.
And with Lila likely possessing this information be it from what Hoaxer got out of Nathalie or Nooroo, something tells me that we’re in for something far, FAR worse than Chat Blanc if that’s even feasibly possible. Perhaps only that the Lucky Charm can’t easily undo.
Aaaaaaaaaand that’s why there was more of a benefit to keep Adrien to the side for Season 5’s finale. If you can’t feel the storm that’s slowly brewing, better get an umbrella now.
@@matt0044 I mean, I guess it could lead to a big blowup and maybe an even better emotional payoff if the writers stick to it (Tho given their track record I don't have much trust in them to write sth good). However, I still think the ending is just bad writing. Let me know how they build off of it tho(if you want to of course) coz I rage quit the show years ago.
I sub just found your channel 😊
1:24 what do you mean physically abusive you could argue in Glaciator but like he was Harassinv her at that point
1:27 Hypocrital well you could argue about that however it's not all black and white in some situations like Chloè chose to reveal identity and endanger people whilst the rest of the of holders apart Kagami didn't do it willingly
3:16 well she is doing it to show Children what not to do she pretty never gets closer with Adrien ahe does it and in the Season 4 Finale Alya calls her out it saying she has gone to far with it and she realises her mistakes and stops trying to control her while her conseqences does get her in Jail does not mean she has no conseqences
3:37 It's not Justified does the episode show us why she is like this yes does it make what she did
1:38 Adrien,Alya and Tikki have never been demonized
4:32 yeah the biggest retcon in this show Not as bad Representation or Stormy weather
6:53 well those all come from the miraculous anyone in possesion can do that if they want to and Gabriel also used serveral miraculouses too the only reason she lasted longer is because she was spilt into different copies of the indivdual so she was only using 2 at a time for each copy
9:13 she does faces conseqences just not in the you way want her to face conseqences so instead of like getting people screaming her or getting she like works on herself and tries to fix what she has done or Volpina where Adrien calls her out in the park and Lila is still against her
10:08-11:05 Adrien as Adrien and Adrien as Cat noir is still very much the real Adrien and she does try to get to know him better and help each other with each others struggles like the only parts I like about Derision is the end where Marinette is reach her hand but isn't ready yet and she also tries to help him stand up to his Father
11:41 it's fine but a bit plain for her this is why I prefer her newer outfit in Season 6 aprt from the shorts with tights new shirt and jacket with her old pants sold
13:30 uhm Questionable
1. I've seen her hit cat noir with her yoyo quite a few times but yes, glaciator is excusable coz cat noir was harassing her
2. It doesn't matter whether they revealed their identity willingly or not because that doesn't change the fact that their identity is known. There are no ifs and buts in the rule that has been reiterated by ladybug more than once. In Kagami's case, ladybug went against the rule for selfish reasons: to get her away from Adrien. So ya, hypocritical.
3. If a bad behavior is almost never corrected (until the writers get backlash for it) then it shows that teaching children to not do that wasn't the intention. Thomas doesn't think her stalking is bad btw. They almost never show her facing consequences for her stalking and realizing that its a problem due to the consequences. As a matter of fact, as of season 5 finale, she gets the guy. So most kids prolly won't see much of a problem with her behavior
4. The writers making that episode after Marinette was losing popularity and they were getting backlash for her writing suggests that they were trying to justify her actions
5. I was mostly talking about Su Han tbh but ig your right tho they rarely ever call her out.
6. Sorry I don't understand your sentence
7. Yeah the powers come from the miraculous but who made it that way? My video is critiquing the writers who wrote Marinette just as much as it's critiquing Marinette.
8. Yeah I think I mention Volpina being one of the only times she faces consequences and that was season one. I'm pretty sure I also praise the character writing in szn 1 and 2. She barely ever faces consequences to that degree until Felix steals all the miraculous. And no, the consequences I want her to face are not people screaming at her (I don't know where you got that), I want her neglect of chat noir to cause him to leave, her stalking tendencies to have people call her out and Adrien to avoid her coz he's creeped out, her hypocrisy to cause characters who are presented as good people to no longer like her (creates more nuance than if an already bad character starts hating her) things like those that make sense narratively. I don't want her to suffer for the sake of suffering, I want her consequences to be a direct result of sth wrong she did that makes sense narratively.
9. Adrien as Adrien constantly complains about not feeling free and he even tries to suggest to Kagami when they were a thing that the persona he presents to the world is what his father wants him to be but not who he really is (when Kagami tells him to stop being silly) so I don't agree that that's also his real self. As someone with strict parents I understand how you can hide all the parts that make you who you really are but hate every part of that fake persona. while Mari does try to know him better, you can't tell me that she isn't in love with an idealized version of him (that's what most crushes, unless the person is your friend, usually cause)
10. I still think they could have tried harder with her new fit because may I repeat, she is an aspiring fashion designer and shorts and tights are just not stylish (coming from someone who used to think they were the epitome of fashion) It looks cute but it doesn't tell us anything about her character.
11. Don't quote me on it but it's widespread speculation and Mari's father is literally called Tom and Thomas even has another self insert in the show so I don't think it's really far fetched that Mari is allegedly his imaginary daughter with his ex.
My favorite Marinette defender is here
Uhm hi?
When she is ladybug she is displayed as Mary sue (kwami buster, feast, ect) but as marinette she is far from Mary sue
But I actually love her 😅😅
Furthermore, the Mary Sue thing? That's a really shaky foundation, using something that has been historically been massively sexist. Often putting female characters under the sort of scrutinity male characters of similar traits (though not always the same beat for beat) would get to such intensity.
I recommend Trope Talk's video on the matter: ua-cam.com/video/H2-GIY9RTqU/v-deo.html
But no, Marinette is not a Mary Sue. You can dislike her characterization or how her character journey shakes out but a lot of the usual Mary Sue accusation do not hold water.
I admit that my argument for her being a mary sue wasn't very strong and that's coz the entire video was supposed to dissect that but halfway through I decided I just wanted to talk about her character. I already know where I stand on that argument coz I've watched quite a few video essays that have proved their claims with receipts.
I have also watched the video you recommended and it just solidifies my initial view of Marinette. She is a mary sue. Not because she's overpowered(I mention that a good chunk of my fav characters are op), not because she's a female character (I am someone who will go above and beyond to defend female character but I will still call out bad writing), but coz certain show writers will go above and beyond to ensure Marinette is seen as the best (class rep, loved by everyone except villains, strongest powers even tho ladybug and cat miraculous are supposed to be equal, implied to have nothing to learn from Su Han in being a guardian even tho he's been in that game longer, etc) regardless of whether they have to retcon info (her backstory that was included after the writers received backlash for portraying her as a stalker and etc), strip characters of their character arcs and personalities (adrien, kagami, chloe) or tell us she's just so great that she can make magical charms because the power was always within her.
I think it's also ironic that the top comment on that video has quite a few people who are claiming that she is a mary sue after watching the video. Idc if you like her, you can do that, and you can also believe what you want to believe about her characterization, but I do think she's a mary sue and that video and the comments reinforce my belief.
I'm not sure we'll have the same top comment tho coz of algorithm and stuff so ignore that last part if you don't see the comment
@@thexreaderspeaks I hope my comments aren't terribly antagonistic. I just... feel like there's an imbalance when it comes to discussion about Miraculous. Especially when it feels less like judging the series for what it is and more so for what it isn't yet never claimed to be.
@@matt0044 Oh they're not. I made this channel to have such discussions so it's ayt. And ya, I agree that most people can be biased against Miraculous but I think it's because the writers have lost our trust and constantly spit in our faces (especially when a certain head writer goes as far as trying to gaslight chloe fans coz the wanted a redemption arc, he's rude to people who have a differing opinion about the direction the show should take, and there are constant nonsensical retcons). The miraculous writers constantly fail their audience and I think that's why said audience is so critical of it. The magic system and premise is really good (The characters are also really lovable in szn one and two) and make the show have so much potential to be someday in the same league as Avatar the last airbender so I think seeing the writers constantly fumble that bag is what makes people frustrated because they see what it could have been.
@@thexreaderspeaks First: I don't like the "next Avatar" comment because it feels like there's this standard Miraculous never set out to meet. Have they really failed us or are we not willing to meet them in the middle?
Second: Chloe’s Failed Redemption Arc works and is something we don’t get very often.
Now… I get why some might’ve felt cheated out of a redemption arc they were getting into around Season 2. There is a compelling story about “the worst” given a chance to actually reflect upon herself and become better despite how low she could go.
However, I can’t hate how her corruption arc turned out because of how well it was handled. Sometimes, a slowburn reformation can make for an interesting story but something that’s equally valuable can be how not everyone sticks the landing. Be it circumstances or their own undoing, some people will turn back around and decide that bettering themselves isn’t worth it.
Like it or not, Season 2′s finale showed her willing to be a team player yet still be a bit of a glory hog vs-a-vie insisting on her hero name above all else. While a small gag, her forgetting the magic words shows that she’s not exactly has been working on her better nature.
Come Season 3, we get moments from various episodes where she insists to Ladybug on getting in on the action. They’re small moments that can be viewed mostly in any order starting with “Bakerix” having her ask Chat if Queen Bee could get in on this.
With my order on Netflix, “Miracular” showed her already breaking out the Bee Signal when new reporters mentioned Carapace and Rena Rogue. Though Ladybug lays down how this was to be Queen Bee’s last hurrah, we end on Chloe refusing to accept it. Her exact words being, “I will always be Queen Bee.”
After this we get Stormy Weather 2 and StarTrain where she’s hoping to wear down Ladybug. Even with the Horse Miraculous, she was turned down when trying to put her hero on the spot around others. Thus Heart Hunter is the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
This wasn’t out of nowhere nor an arbitrary decision from the writers just because. She had a good heart, yes, but her self-centered nature tipped the scales when Hawk Moth offered her not just her Miraculous but EVERY Miraculous in the box.
I also have a bone to pick with the whole Thomas Astruc drama llamas.
Especially with theimmaturityofthomasastruc by far.
Maybe at some point and time it was about conducting criticism towards a creator that appeared to be too fussy towards their fans. Now? It's "Oh, look. Thomas made a social faux-pas. Thomas blocked you like literally any other Twitter user would. Thomas doesn't listen to criticism that comes from a place of unchecked anger."
It reduces a human who's... just a dude at the end of the day into a fandom punching back. I saw this with Steven Moffat when his Doctor Who run was going and the fandom got BAD. Lies, misinformation, quotes taken out of context from years ago, etc. It was cancel culture before it was cool. Like... I might be hypocritical for this because I've fallen down the Lily Orchard rabbit hole myself. But Lily is somebody going beyond having bad takes and has displayed a pattern of toxicity in her relationships as well as with her own fans.
Thomas Astruc? I don't agree with all that he writes, barring the times he had to appease the multiple production teams Miraculous acquired, buuuuuuuut he's generally just some guy. Hell, he's pretty far left if you took the time to look at his Twitter feed (not that politics and morality always overlap). Until tangible accusations come forth about him, I'm sorry to say that theimmaturityofthomasastruc is, well, ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. And NO, that one video essay about the woes of the Miraculous fandom isn't going to sway me.
I am done, done, done, dooooooooooooone with giving this kind of discourse the time of day. Especially when similar cases in other fandoms have turned well and truly ugly. I beseech the Miraculous fandom to see the red flags that have been waving this whole time. Somebody is going to get hurt. I have seen it all before. So should you. This Scapegoat Showrunner phenomenon had done too much damage to many fandoms.