Hands-down one of the most informative pieces on climb- vs conventional milling. I accidentally clicked on this right before I was supposed to leave for a meeting, but was so impressed with it's depth of information, that being late was completely worth it. What a really, *really* great video and demonstration. To the point, clear, with immediate feedback, and you covered all the directions, angles and styles. I wish all such videos I've found online were this informative, and in such an impressively short time too. (I've learned less in hour-long videos.) Thanks for helping make me a better machinist.
I’ve been a Toolmaker for 22 years and today my son sent me a picture of his mill setup at his high school. I asked if they’re teaching them the basics like climb and conventional and he said no. I’m not a good person to explain with words so figured I’d do a quick search and your video came up. I’ll definitely watch it again with him as your explanation is far better than mine and the visual examples are excellent. Nice machine shop too. I’ve always wanted to have one but it’s hard to justify the cost when my employer allows us to use the shop for our own stuff on our own time. Thx again
Well, the experience you've gained from all those years is something money can't buy. And I'm sure there are a whole lot of people, like me, who really appreciate that you take the time to share it with us. If I could, I'd give you all those nickels myself, but I'm still saving up for my own tools. :-/
This is great for a manual machine. You are spot on with all the issues and benefits. Additionally, on a CNC with ball screws and very little backlash, climb milling is best all around due to the better chip clearance and better surface finishes. As an added bonus, tool life also goes up with climb milling with light, fast passes (High Speed Machining or High Efficiency Machining) on a CNC.
Sort of knew, but the standing stock jump brought it home; The stock vise grip against the jaws was a GREAT tip. This will live in my memory as I grow as a machinist. Thank you, great explanation.
I am not a machinist but I still need to make parts for my equipment and you just cleared up years of frustrating screw up and have saved me a lot of money. I have broken enough cutters and mills to supply a small country because I was doing every operation backwards. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and my boys say I can't change how I do things.
Great piece Tom. This is the best explanation of why conventional vs climb milling finishes differ I have ever seen. Thanks for taking the time to educate us! Fred
+Toms Techniques! yes sir much better explanation and a helluva lot less expensive than using the bosses hi speed video / computer file set-up over at the tech lab. thanks tom. (i personally used a similar video set-up @ ITW / paslode fastener engineering dept. to observe how prototype 'roundrive' nails went thru a 'windowed' nose piece of a pneumatic nailer tool > kinda like trying to find a needle in a haystack searching the 'bazillions' of frames per second...)
this is a much more interesting point than what my teacher told me in school, all he said was climb milling wears out your cutting edge faster, conventional makes it last longer, so always conventional mill, but now I see I should do conventional for rough milling, and climb for the last fine cut, cheers!
Sounds like your teacher needs to go back to school. In theory, climb milling should wear less than conventional due to more rubbing when entering the cut.
As someone just starting out with a small home hobby machine shop I LOVE your videos. I've been watching them for about a year now and you have taught me so many right ways to do things. Thank you for these!
One of the best videos on this subject with and example of what can and will happen. Just got a milling machine and was doing a decent climb cut of steel and it did what your example did but in my case it broke the end mill. Thanks
Learned a lot, and your demonstrations (rather than just verbal explanations) make both the procedure and the results - desirable and undesirable - very clear. Super helpful. Thanks again.
Good explanation, I learned the same 40 years ago. Anyhow, in the modern machines with very little backlash climb cutting is always used, as it saves tool life and produces better surfaces.
Tom. I don't know if you will see this comment but as someone new to lathes and miling can I say a Massive thank you to you for taking the time and effort to make your videos, you have taught me so much, everything is explained and shown clearly. thank you
This is THE best explanation of Climb vs conventional milling I have ever seen, and I have seen a few. I always new it was all about chip thickness but I never really visualised it as well as this.
Thanks, Tom, have zero training on a milling machine I basically have taught my self, though not always with good results as you just demonstrated. I could see the surface finish differences and the mill talking back to me but never knew why. You have made it all make sense!
Thank you for your video, just 18 minutes and now I "get" it. I went to school for a year, bought the textbooks, listened to the lecturer...but it never really sank in. Watching you explain things in action though, now it makes sense! Again thank you, you earned a new subscriber.
Nice non confusing explanation of the two cutting directions. Excellent top of the stock climb no burr time saver move. Great lesson here we are happy to have found this channel.
+Tom Herd It is very important to keep in mind how the cutter is going act on the part, at the start, middle and end of the cut. All three will act differently on the part. Tom
Thanks for talking through the "whys" of climbing milling. As a hobbyist Ive been aware of it since the 1980s but this the first time I heard a thorough discussion on it. I'll def recommend your channel as a priority must watch for any noobs..
Nice job Tom. I think of it as scooping, conventional..... and clawing, climb milling. What I didn't know was the physics of how and why one worked better than the other depending on the finish you were working toward. That lesson was presented really well. Thanks Tom.
I had an old school boilermaker show me everything I know about steel and he didn't do so in purpose he actually wished I never learned. I couldn't ask questions really or use welder on lunch to practice etc. now I'm learning different operations of machines used primarily in machine shops and it's be weird. I'm so grateful because I wouldn't learn it any other way but I'm also confused because you're giving away your and your brother machinists secrets away. I know it feels good to give back but not your livelyhood. thanks for the information you're definitely one of the more watchable how to videos with the milling that I've seen so far.
Toms Techniques thanks because this is foreign grounds for me. I didn't plan on working steel it chose me. I've just worked hard and it's stayed around. I got fired up seeing what's obviously younger men on here trying to learn and they could be out doing anything or nothing like other people their age but they still want more and enjoy learning because I've been witnessing that. I got an opportunity to start machining parts and welding Axel's for a bigger plant close to home and good pay so I didn't know what to do to prepare and I came here. and found y'all on here basically running an online course the way you respond you'd think you're getting paid and they're in school. It's awesome because y'all aren't.
Toms Techniques yeah I'd beat the house we all thank you. I felt like saying thanks was not enough after reading everything back I sincerely thank you Tom. What you're doing is almost unpresidented. I'd beat again you've given most of your life literally working this trade and here you are giving it back to the whole world in as easily understood format for learners as you can. I haven't seen ads on your videos so I assume it's 100%donated to paying it forward. Step by step audio matching video. no one else on here is doing it to your level that I've seen. You're awesome.
Great. I've been doing more or less simple machining for 15 years, learning and picking up tips from trained machinist but found I simple end up machining by feel and common sense without having actually studied the physics involved. It is definitely a plus to understand more substantially why I'm doing what I'm doing. I can see learning a great deal in the next few months simply watching this channel and similar ones and being able to take on much more substantial projects and fixtures. Thank you for taking the time making these videos.
Wow that was a great explanation. Thank you. Before this video I understood why climb milling grabbed the part but not why the surface finish was better. Thank you for clearing that up.
.....good info Tom, great explanation........no one that has any time in a shop hasnt had a crash.......keeping them to once every few years is the secret.........like you explained, know your machine, and know its limits as well.........good to see ya back in the shop.
Very good video! I’m a CNC miller; been using these techniques for 25 years, but only now fully understand them. We usually program the tool-path / contour as climb milling. Roughing with a tipped tool (doing only 1mm steps) you can get away with that, and then the finished surface will be nice. .. Using a 16mm ripper to rough the job is a different story. Recently I had to machine 200+ parts. The old program was roughing jobs with climb milling. It ruined 2 rippers doing just 24 jobs. Then I added a conventional pre-roughing bit to the program. One ripper tool finished the whole batch (did more than 170 parts).
Please expain, you mean you changed the program to 'conventional' instead of climb milling? As far as I know (I worked in several machine shops but never actually at the machines) the 'modern' way of doing it is to always climb mill it seems. I have watched all Edge Precision videos also! Will investigate this further. I remember from my most recent machine shop employment they have some of these new algorithms which is called 'adaptive'.
@@bigbattenberg No. You have different options for roughing but finishing should be climb milling. .. High efficiency machining (dynamic mill, requital milling) or as Hurco calls it: AdaptiPath is a modern roughing strategy. You use almost the whole flute-length of the cutter (large depth of cut with small width of cut). The cutter goes very fast (F5000). I was machining Aston Martin components with AdaptiPath. You need very good cutters, like YG or MA Ford.
@@bigbattenberg This video explains and demonstrates how and why the algorithm works. There’s also a comparison of AdaptiPath, WorkNC, Mastercam and SolidCAM high speed machining algorithms. ua-cam.com/video/96_HSAKeXNU/v-deo.html
I can only repeat what others have said: The best explanation I have yet seen on climb vs. conventional milling, with the added point that climb milling can serve a good purpose if done correctly. Most others just say avoid it, period. New subscriber! Thanks.
Thanks for the clear explanation as I am new to the game getting started in all of this at a late age in my life and can use the wisdom of those that have been in the game for a long time like you.
As someone that is still new to machining with a mill I learned a lot from this video. I had a part climb out of my vice as you describe around the 13 minute mark and did not know what I did wrong but your explanation and example really put everything into perspective. Thanks.
That is the best description i have heard explaining conventional vs climb milling. I had never thought of the chip formation. Great video. Thank you for taking the time to make, edit and post this.
Great Video! This is a lesson I learned the hard way, back when I was just out of high school at my first machinist job. I actually broke the Y-Axis shear pin and slammed the whole table to the end of the Way. I knew not to hog climb cut but as kids do, I just wasn't paying attention that moment... I've been a Toolmaker for 20 years, It NEVER happened again!
I retired with 34 years machine shop experience, with at least half of the years being a Milling machine specialist- meaning my entire work day was using Milling machines. A couple of additions I'll make is that the conventional Milling pull on the cutter can actually undercut the metal being machined. If the operator checks a part thickness and notes there's for instance, .200 of material left to remove and in turn positions the table to remove .200, the resulting cut cut may actually take off more than .200. This is because the conventional cut will "pull" the cutter into the material being machined. This result is compounded when using a long narrow cutter that bends easily. The operator may have a layout line on the top of the part but after the conventional cut completes, the bottom of the machined part thickness may be undercut while the top layout line is still visible . This is because the cutter bends in at the bottom during conventional cuts. The opposite occurs with climb cutting - the bottom of the cutter is deflected off of the part - resulting in a tapered thickness with the bottom being thicker. If one made a climb cut pass to the layout line on top, the bottom of the part may be thicker. If the operator floats the cutter back across the part in a conventional direction, the bottom of the part may be undercut. This will all vary with the length and diameter of the cutter along with how much material is being removed in one cut. Aircraft machine shop.
Good points. End mill deflection is why I always square up parts by end milling rather than side milling. I retired recently as well after 45 years of making chips, and guess what? I'm still making chips. At least I'm doing for myself now instead of someone else.
you did a very good job explaining the differances. i have done it both ways but didnt know there was a differant name for both. thanks for the lesson.
Thanx Teach! Like I'm back in school, but the fun stuff, like auto or wood... or metal/machining (the one my school lacked). I like your way of describing, really drew me and made the lesson fun. I really hope they bring back more tradesman schools here in Cali. Thanks again, now I have to watch the rest of your videos.
That's good to hear. It's been a long time since I taught in a classroom. Once manufacturing starts coming back to the country, so will the "fun stuff" in education. Tom
Tom I have many many books have watched a lot on UA-cam and no one seems to get there -point across. Or explains like you do buddy. You have a way of explaining things that make so much sense. By trial and error I figured this out in the end but people starting out will save them going through the crashes take care lee
+lbcustomknives Thanks Lee, that's good to hear. Sometimes it's hard to tell if the message gets across without the instant feed back of a face to face lesson. Tom
+Toms Techniques your welcome Tom.. Good to see you posting again.. There are a lot of UA-cam machinist channels.. But they seem to over complicate the issue.. And use a lot of machinist jargon.. That is not always easy to understand.. You teach and part with you knowledge in a very down to earth way.. That never leaves you with.. Mmmm. I still don't understand.. Keep up the good work.. Stay safe and take care.. Lee.
Nice job explaining the difference in milling directions. If you don't mind, I would like to offer a couple other points. Another reason that the conventional cut makes a crappy finish is that it drags chips that adhere to the cutter back into the fresh cut surface. These chips get wedged and smeared under high pressure embedding them in the otherwise smooth surface. If you use a lubricated air blast you will get a much better finish conventional milling. Plunge milling on an edge can have the same consequences as climb milling. Always pre-load the leadscrew counteracting the cutting force as well as using the lock screw on the table slide. One other point is that you should always check the tram (squareness) of the head and square of the vise after a climb milling crash. 9 times out of 10 something will have moved. By the way, mills have adjustments on the backlash of the leadscrew nuts. You should be able to get the backlash down to less than .005" pretty easily if the screw itself is not badly worn in the middle of it's travel. This small backlash will make quite a difference in not grabbing a part when climbing.
+David S. Thanks David. All good points. The amount of backlash is only a problem if it's ignored. Proper tool overlap, feed direction and use of table locks will keep it from becoming a problem. Tom
Thanks for the lesson, Tom. A 200V DoAll followed me home from work last fall... very low hours and light use, should last me the rest of my life. Looking forward to more of your style of teaching. Take care, Allan
+allanpeters It's a very nice mill. I bought mine new in the mid 80's when Bridgeport quality was suffering under the Textron acquisition and it has served me very well over the years. Thanks for watching. Tom
At the beginning of the video talking about hang out of the tool and flex, should be noted that the E-mill is high speed steel, which has a small amount of deflection, as compared to carbide. Just a note..great video!
Thanks. CNC mills use ball lead screws, so there is no backlash, and they are extremely rigid, so climb milling can (and should) be used all of the time. Tom
You know, I've been watching machining channels for 5 years or so, I've listened to various people talk about it, I've read about it, but it has never clicked as to *exactly* what the issues were until now. I realize this video is 6 years old, but I want to thank you for somehow getting the old lightbulb in my brain to finally light up and understand what the heck the differences actually meant. I hope you post more, you have a good presentation style. Thanks. And sub'd.
Great video! I would always use a two fluted end mill when machining aluminum! Chips wouldn't load up and better finish! Coolant and or continuous air blast always helped!
Thank you for the reply Tom. I am making my own locks(for small boxes),and the stainless steel parts i'm machining are the moving parts of the mechanism. I was under the impression that 304 Grade was easiest to machine.
+Alan Jackson 304 is good for welding and fabrication (sheet metal work), but it doesn't machine well at all. If you have a lot of machining to do and haven't started yet, I would definitely recommend using 303 instead. Tom
Thanks Tom for the very clear and easily understood demonstration, you certainly have the ability to explain things in a straightforward, logical manner without any superfluous information... easily understood by novices like me, well done and keep it up.
+Bill De La Vega Thanks Bill. I wasn't sure how that was going to look, but I thought I'd give it a try. It was a lot easier than hanging the camera off a tripod over the mill. Less scary too. Tom
Perfect explanation, thanks Tom.. I have a light smaller machine and everything I was reading was to use climb (even the default setting in fusion 360 for gcode) now knowing this I will try conventional for my rough cuts and climb for finishing.. Thanks
+Bleu Wolf Yup. I wanted to show how much backlash was in the table before taking the cut, but I couldn't move the table by hand. The cutter had no trouble moving it. Tom
thats right, climb milling is recommended for cnc. climb cutting reduces wear, uses less hp, produces better finish, and i believe it makes less heat. thanks for the video!
Good vid there Tom... as an aside, anyone getting into woodworking and more specifically, using a router... the same theory applies.... except you should NEVER climb cut using a handheld router or even a table-mounted router. ALWAYS use conventional cutting when routing... 😎
Hello, im a new subscriber. have been in fixture building for the past three years. have watched a couple of your videos to help boost my knowledge on machining. I have been taught by a skilled tradesman of over 45 years experience. This video caught my attention because I never called conventional milling like you call it. I was trained to call it a push cut. as you are pushing forward into the cutter. climb cut was always best to be used for a finish cut. too much feed and too much material with climb cut can result in the cutter walking forward towards the direction you are feeding. the cutter doesn't have time to clean the blade and the left over material stuck on the cutting edge becomes like a grabber instead of cutting. something has to give. either the cutter or the part. I've made this mistake a couple times in my first year. now I can machine and rip thru material, completing my parts faster. thanks for sharing your videos. I will watch more videos if you upload. I know this video is 4 years old. but is still helpful for those trying to learn. thanks!
I have never heard the term "push cut", but it makes perfect sense. You are pushing the work against the rotation of the cutter. It's good to hear you have mastered the concept.
@@TomsTechniques talked to my teacher at work and he said he probably told me conventional push cut just to help me recognize what is actually happening so it isnt too confusing. I guess I didnt pick up the term conventional. Anywho thanks for the reply!
Hands-down one of the most informative pieces on climb- vs conventional milling. I accidentally clicked on this right before I was supposed to leave for a meeting, but was so impressed with it's depth of information, that being late was completely worth it. What a really, *really* great video and demonstration. To the point, clear, with immediate feedback, and you covered all the directions, angles and styles.
I wish all such videos I've found online were this informative, and in such an impressively short time too. (I've learned less in hour-long videos.)
Thanks for helping make me a better machinist.
+Mark Donohoe
Thanks Mark
I’ve been a Toolmaker for 22 years and today my son sent me a picture of his mill setup at his high school. I asked if they’re teaching them the basics like climb and conventional and he said no. I’m not a good person to explain with words so figured I’d do a quick search and your video came up. I’ll definitely watch it again with him as your explanation is far better than mine and the visual examples are excellent. Nice machine shop too. I’ve always wanted to have one but it’s hard to justify the cost when my employer allows us to use the shop for our own stuff on our own time. Thx again
Thanks, Ernie.
This is a dude that is speaking from a lot of practical experience. No fluff here. This is priceless info for people interested in this stuff.
I wish I had a nickel for every pound of chips I've produced in the last 45 years. :)
Well, the experience you've gained from all those years is something money can't buy. And I'm sure there are a whole lot of people, like me, who really appreciate that you take the time to share it with us. If I could, I'd give you all those nickels myself, but I'm still saving up for my own tools. :-/
This is great for a manual machine. You are spot on with all the issues and benefits.
Additionally, on a CNC with ball screws and very little backlash, climb milling is best all around due to the better chip clearance and better surface finishes. As an added bonus, tool life also goes up with climb milling with light, fast passes (High Speed Machining or High Efficiency Machining) on a CNC.
Thanks Tom.
Tool life is definitely better when climb milling due to the lack of rubbing as the cutter enters the work.
Tom
Sort of knew, but the standing stock jump brought it home; The stock vise grip against the jaws was a GREAT tip. This will live in my memory as I grow as a machinist. Thank you, great explanation.
Thanks for watching.
also your skills at doing cautious perfect small crashes and grabs WAS THE BEST IVE EVER SEEN--youve got in the hours milling thats for sure.
I am not a machinist but I still need to make parts for my equipment and you just cleared up years of frustrating screw up and have saved me a lot of money. I have broken enough cutters and mills to supply a small country because I was doing every operation backwards. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and my boys say I can't change how I do things.
Thanks. It's good to hear the videos are helping.
Just send a check to...
;)
Tom
Learned more about milling the square bar held vertical in the vice. Thanks. Glad I found your older video as you made things more clear.
Great piece Tom. This is the best explanation of why conventional vs climb milling finishes differ I have ever seen. Thanks for taking the time to educate us! Fred
+Fred Miller
Thanks Fred.
+Toms Techniques! yes sir much better explanation and a helluva lot less expensive than using the bosses hi speed video / computer file set-up over at the tech lab. thanks tom. (i personally used a similar video set-up @ ITW / paslode fastener engineering dept. to observe how prototype 'roundrive' nails went thru a 'windowed' nose piece of a pneumatic nailer tool > kinda like trying to find a needle in a haystack searching the 'bazillions' of frames per second...)
this is a much more interesting point than what my teacher told me in school, all he said was climb milling wears out your cutting edge faster, conventional makes it last longer, so always conventional mill, but now I see I should do conventional for rough milling, and climb for the last fine cut, cheers!
Sounds like your teacher needs to go back to school.
In theory, climb milling should wear less than conventional due to more rubbing when entering the cut.
As someone just starting out with a small home hobby machine shop I LOVE your videos. I've been watching them for about a year now and you have taught me so many right ways to do things. Thank you for these!
That's good to hear. Thanks for watching!
One of the best videos on this subject with and example of what can and will happen. Just got a milling machine and was doing a decent climb cut of steel and it did what your example did but in my case it broke the end mill.
Thanks
I think this might be the best video on this subject on youtube.
Learned a lot, and your demonstrations (rather than just verbal explanations) make both the procedure and the results - desirable and undesirable - very clear. Super helpful. Thanks again.
+Jim Milne
Thanks Jim
This finally makes sense. Professors never seemed to be able to properly explain it and I don't know why. Thank you!
Thank you Tom, I have read about climb milling but could not understand how it worked until I viewed your demonstration.
+William Ottewell
Thanks for watching William.
Good explanation, I learned the same 40 years ago. Anyhow, in the modern machines with very little backlash climb cutting is always used, as it saves tool life and produces better surfaces.
Tom. I don't know if you will see this comment but as someone new to lathes and miling can I say a Massive thank you to you for taking the time and effort to make your videos, you have taught me so much, everything is explained and shown clearly. thank you
I do see the comments and it's always good to hear when someone appreciates the videos. Thanks for watching!
This is THE best explanation of Climb vs conventional milling I have ever seen, and I have seen a few. I always new it was all about chip thickness but I never really visualised it as well as this.
+gus bisbal
Thanks Gus
+gus bisbal
I agree, excellent demonstration and explanation. Concise, coherent and easily understandable. Great work.
Thanks, Tom, have zero training on a milling machine I basically have taught my self, though not always with good results as you just demonstrated. I could see the surface finish differences and the mill talking back to me but never knew why. You have made it all make sense!
Good to hear, David. Thanks for watching.
Thank you for your video, just 18 minutes and now I "get" it. I went to school for a year, bought the textbooks, listened to the lecturer...but it never really sank in. Watching you explain things in action though, now it makes sense!
Again thank you, you earned a new subscriber.
Thanks for watching
Nice non confusing explanation of the two cutting directions. Excellent top of the stock climb no burr time saver move. Great lesson here we are happy to have found this channel.
Thanks for watching
Besides the difference in milling, your placement of how to secure the part in the first place was thought provoking! Thanks, Tom
+Tom Herd
It is very important to keep in mind how the cutter is going act on the part, at the start, middle and end of the cut. All three will act differently on the part.
Tom
Very good demo! An old timer once used the terms "push mill" (conventional) and "pull mill" (climb). I'll watch more of your channel.
I really like the fact that Tom takes time to help us with our techniques. Thank You Tom.
+pak715
My pleasure. Thanks for watching.
Thanks Tom. This is so often over looked, misunderstood or disregarded. This video makes it pretty clear. Great demo.
Thanks Emilio.
The time you start ignoring whether you are climb or conventional milling is the time it jumps up and bites you in the ass.
Tom
Thanks for talking through the "whys" of climbing milling. As a hobbyist Ive been aware of it since the 1980s but this the first time I heard a thorough discussion on it. I'll def recommend your channel as a priority must watch for any noobs..
Good explanation of what is going on with the intersection of the cutter and work. I think I finally understand.
+Bruce Stangeby
Thanks Bruce.
Great video and a real help for those of us who are not quite sure what we are doing. Thanks.
Nice job Tom.
I think of it as scooping, conventional..... and clawing, climb milling. What I didn't know was the physics of how and why one worked better than the other depending on the finish you were working toward.
That lesson was presented really well.
Thanks Tom.
+wiredodger60
Thanks. That's a good analogy.
I had an old school boilermaker show me everything I know about steel and he didn't do so in purpose he actually wished I never learned. I couldn't ask questions really or use welder on lunch to practice etc. now I'm learning different operations of machines used primarily in machine shops and it's be weird. I'm so grateful because I wouldn't learn it any other way but I'm also confused because you're giving away your and your brother machinists secrets away. I know it feels good to give back but not your livelyhood. thanks for the information you're definitely one of the more watchable how to videos with the milling that I've seen so far.
This country is in dire need of skilled machinists and other tradesmen. I'm happy to pass on any knowledge I have that may help the cause.
Toms Techniques thanks because this is foreign grounds for me. I didn't plan on working steel it chose me. I've just worked hard and it's stayed around. I got fired up seeing what's obviously younger men on here trying to learn and they could be out doing anything or nothing like other people their age but they still want more and enjoy learning because I've been witnessing that. I got an opportunity to start machining parts and welding Axel's for a bigger plant close to home and good pay so I didn't know what to do to prepare and I came here. and found y'all on here basically running an online course the way you respond you'd think you're getting paid and they're in school. It's awesome because y'all aren't.
Toms Techniques yeah I'd beat the house we all thank you. I felt like saying thanks was not enough after reading everything back I sincerely thank you Tom. What you're doing is almost unpresidented. I'd beat again you've given most of your life literally working this trade and here you are giving it back to the whole world in as easily understood format for learners as you can. I haven't seen ads on your videos so I assume it's 100%donated to paying it forward. Step by step audio matching video. no one else on here is doing it to your level that I've seen. You're awesome.
Thanks for such a clear explanation and demonstration. Very helpful for a non-technical person.
Beautifully explained, thank you for taking the time to make the video - much appreciated.
Great. I've been doing more or less simple machining for 15 years, learning and picking up tips from trained machinist but found I simple end up machining by feel and common sense without having actually studied the physics involved. It is definitely a plus to understand more substantially why I'm doing what I'm doing. I can see learning a great deal in the next few months simply watching this channel and similar ones and being able to take on much more substantial projects and fixtures. Thank you for taking the time making these videos.
Thanks for watching
I knew the difference very well, but didn't knew how to explain it to others. Thank you!
Very well explained. Always noticed the clime milling left a better finish but didn't understand why. Thank you for sharing this.
+Glenn Felpel
Thanks for watching Glenn.
Wow that was a great explanation. Thank you. Before this video I understood why climb milling grabbed the part but not why the surface finish was better. Thank you for clearing that up.
Thanks. Glad I could shed some light on the subject.
Tom
.....good info Tom, great explanation........no one that has any time in a shop hasnt had a crash.......keeping them to once every few years is the secret.........like you explained, know your machine, and know its limits as well.........good to see ya back in the shop.
+Rick L
Thanks.
We have all had more crashes than we care to admit. Hopefully this will head a few off for others.
Tom
Very good video! I’m a CNC miller; been using these techniques for 25 years, but only now fully understand them. We usually program the tool-path / contour as climb milling. Roughing with a tipped tool (doing only 1mm steps) you can get away with that, and then the finished surface will be nice. .. Using a 16mm ripper to rough the job is a different story. Recently I had to machine 200+ parts. The old program was roughing jobs with climb milling. It ruined 2 rippers doing just 24 jobs. Then I added a conventional pre-roughing bit to the program. One ripper tool finished the whole batch (did more than 170 parts).
Please expain, you mean you changed the program to 'conventional' instead of climb milling? As far as I know (I worked in several machine shops but never actually at the machines) the 'modern' way of doing it is to always climb mill it seems. I have watched all Edge Precision videos also! Will investigate this further. I remember from my most recent machine shop employment they have some of these new algorithms which is called 'adaptive'.
@@bigbattenberg No. You have different options for roughing but finishing should be climb milling. .. High efficiency machining (dynamic mill, requital milling) or as Hurco calls it: AdaptiPath is a modern roughing strategy. You use almost the whole flute-length of the cutter (large depth of cut with small width of cut). The cutter goes very fast (F5000). I was machining Aston Martin components with AdaptiPath.
You need very good cutters, like YG or MA Ford.
@@007kisvakond Cool, very good information. Thanks.
@@bigbattenberg This video explains and demonstrates how and why the algorithm works. There’s also a comparison of AdaptiPath, WorkNC, Mastercam and SolidCAM high speed machining algorithms. ua-cam.com/video/96_HSAKeXNU/v-deo.html
@@007kisvakond Awesome. I have learned a lot. Thanks.
Two thumbs up. Being new to machining I really appreciate how thorough your explanations are, thank YOU!
Thanks for watching.
I'm a 1 year greenhorn on a Clausing, I'm very easy on the mill. Your tips are much appreciated 🤘💜
Also any tips or vids on key ways?
I can only repeat what others have said: The best explanation I have yet seen on climb vs. conventional milling, with the added point that climb milling can serve a good purpose if done correctly. Most others just say avoid it, period.
New subscriber! Thanks.
+orcasea59
Thanks for watching.
Your videos are as good now as when you made them! Thanks for taking the time to help us out.
Thanks for the clear explanation as I am new to the game getting started in all of this at a late age in my life and can use the wisdom of those that have been in the game for a long time like you.
Thanks Edward. Glad I can help.
Tom
As someone that is still new to machining with a mill I learned a lot from this video. I had a part climb out of my vice as you describe around the 13 minute mark and did not know what I did wrong but your explanation and example really put everything into perspective. Thanks.
That's good to hear. Too bad you didn't catch the video before the crash. :)
Tom
Tom
Very true, but some trial and error for a new user is expected. Thanks again.
Crashes can be expensive in machining, so hopefully these videos can help prevent some of them.
Tom
I was wondering why I was getting dissapointing finishes from my 6040. This explains it. Thank you.
Good to hear.
Thanks for watching.
Your explanations are excellent as always. I appreciate you taking the time to educate the beginner machinist community. Thank you.
+Thom Wham
Thank you.
I've always had a problem telling the two apart. Never again! Thanks tom!
+P0tat0_craft
That is definitely a good thing
That is the best description i have heard explaining conventional vs climb milling. I had never thought of the chip formation. Great video. Thank you for taking the time to make, edit and post this.
+Scott Thornton
Thanks Scott, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Great observation, you've proved that there are simple solutions for big troubles than complex solutions
Thanks for watching
Great Video! This is a lesson I learned the hard way, back when I was just out of high school at my first machinist job. I actually broke the Y-Axis shear pin and slammed the whole table to the end of the Way. I knew not to hog climb cut but as kids do, I just wasn't paying attention that moment... I've been a Toolmaker for 20 years, It NEVER happened again!
Yes, those kind of lessons tend to make a lasting impression.
Thanks for this sort of video, really helps me to visualize the differences. great work.
I retired with 34 years machine shop experience, with at least half of the years being a Milling machine specialist- meaning my entire work day was using Milling machines.
A couple of additions I'll make is that the conventional Milling pull on the cutter can actually undercut the metal being machined. If the operator checks a part thickness and notes there's for instance, .200 of material left to remove and in turn positions the table to remove .200, the resulting cut cut may actually take off more than .200. This is because the conventional cut will "pull" the cutter into the material being machined. This result is compounded when using a long narrow cutter that bends easily. The operator may have a layout line on the top of the part but after the conventional cut completes, the bottom of the machined part thickness may be undercut while the top layout line is still visible . This is because the cutter bends in at the bottom during conventional cuts.
The opposite occurs with climb cutting - the bottom of the cutter is deflected off of the part - resulting in a tapered thickness with the bottom being thicker.
If one made a climb cut pass to the layout line on top, the bottom of the part may be thicker. If the operator floats the cutter back across the part in a conventional direction, the bottom of the part may be undercut. This will all vary with the length and diameter of the cutter along with how much material is being removed in one cut.
Aircraft machine shop.
Good points. End mill deflection is why I always square up parts by end milling rather than side milling. I retired recently as well after 45 years of making chips, and guess what? I'm still making chips. At least I'm doing for myself now instead of someone else.
you did a very good job explaining the differances. i have done it both ways but didnt know there was a differant name for both. thanks for the lesson.
+Bison Workshop
Thanks for watching.
Thanx Teach! Like I'm back in school, but the fun stuff, like auto or wood... or metal/machining (the one my school lacked). I like your way of describing, really drew me and made the lesson fun. I really hope they bring back more tradesman schools here in Cali. Thanks again, now I have to watch the rest of your videos.
That's good to hear. It's been a long time since I taught in a classroom. Once manufacturing starts coming back to the country, so will the "fun stuff" in education.
Tom
Tom I have many many books have watched a lot on UA-cam and no one seems to get there -point across. Or explains like you do buddy. You have a way of explaining things that make so much sense. By trial and error I figured this out in the end but people starting out will save them going through the crashes take care lee
+lbcustomknives
Thanks Lee, that's good to hear. Sometimes it's hard to tell if the message gets across without the instant feed back of a face to face lesson.
Tom
+Toms Techniques your welcome Tom.. Good to see you posting again.. There are a lot of UA-cam machinist channels.. But they seem to over complicate the issue.. And use a lot of machinist jargon.. That is not always easy to understand.. You teach and part with you knowledge in a very down to earth way.. That never leaves you with.. Mmmm. I still don't understand.. Keep up the good work.. Stay safe and take care.. Lee.
Excellent information thanks Tom. I thought there was something wrong with my mill when it was jerking , I now know it's because I am climbing.
A very good demo Tom! Using a slow larger diameter cutter while climbing at a slow feedrate really gets the point across.
+Ujeb08
Thanks.
Nothing makes a bigger impression than a good crash.
Tom
Nice job explaining the difference in milling directions. If you don't mind, I would like to offer a couple other points.
Another reason that the conventional cut makes a crappy finish is that it drags chips that adhere to the cutter back into the fresh cut surface. These chips get wedged and smeared under high pressure embedding them in the otherwise smooth surface. If you use a lubricated air blast you will get a much better finish conventional milling. Plunge milling on an edge can have the same consequences as climb milling. Always pre-load the leadscrew counteracting the cutting force as well as using the lock screw on the table slide. One other point is that you should always check the tram (squareness) of the head and square of the vise after a climb milling crash. 9 times out of 10 something will have moved. By the way, mills have adjustments on the backlash of the leadscrew nuts. You should be able to get the backlash down to less than .005" pretty easily if the screw itself is not badly worn in the middle of it's travel. This small backlash will make quite a difference in not grabbing a part when climbing.
+David S.
Thanks David. All good points.
The amount of backlash is only a problem if it's ignored. Proper tool overlap, feed direction and use of table locks will keep it from becoming a problem.
Tom
Thanks, this is one of the best explanations I've seen.
Thanks for the lesson. Good to see you back teaching. Looking forward to more!
+Paul Schumacher
Thanks Paul
Best video about topic so far on internet. Thanks Tom.
you explain things very very good .. thank you for sharing your knowledge
Thanks for the lesson, Tom. A 200V DoAll followed me home from work last fall... very low hours and light use, should last me the rest of my life. Looking forward to more of your style of teaching.
Take care,
Allan
+allanpeters
It's a very nice mill. I bought mine new in the mid 80's when Bridgeport quality was suffering under the Textron acquisition and it has served me very well over the years.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
Very nice video tom. I have not seen a better explanation and demonstration of the two techniques. Thanks
Thanks Mark
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Hope to see some new videos soon
Ah, winter is in the air and Tom is back in the shop ..... nice to see you again. Looking forward to a few more videos to enjoy. Regards, greg
+pkav8tor
Thanks Greg.
I'm new to milling and this was the perfect explanation for when to do each type of cut and explaining why will make the knowledge stick - great vid!
Good to hear!
Glad you are back making videos! Thank you for your hard work and fantastically informative material
+Ras
Thanks for watching.
nice video. good demonstrations and the explanation at the end explains exactly why the machine and part react that way.
At the beginning of the video talking about hang out of the tool and flex, should be noted that the E-mill is high speed steel, which has a small amount of deflection, as compared to carbide. Just a note..great video!
Thanks Tom. Great explanation! Probably the best I've seen online. My endmills thank you too.
Thanks for watching!
great to have you back,you were missed. looking forward to more videos. thanks tom.
+larry sperling
Thanks for watching Larry.
Mr. Tom,
Thanks for sharing the video. The differences between these two types are clear. Climbing can break the tools.
Either can break tools. Climbing just does it faster if you aren't careful.
always nice to go through the basics and clarify terminology
+Bob Shepherd
Basics are something often overlooked.
Very good demonstration and instruction! Thanks!
Hi Tom .. What a great teacher you are! I am a noob and just starting out, this is so clearly explained and very well presented ..Thank you.
+Ziwi
Thanks
VERY good demonstration. Best explanation I've seen on this subject
+Bob Sorenson
Thanks Bob.
Super Video demonstrating what the differences are! I will have to try and possibly change my CNC programs.Thank You Sir.
Thanks.
CNC mills use ball lead screws, so there is no backlash, and they are extremely rigid, so climb milling can (and should) be used all of the time.
Tom
That was a damn fine lesson on what can be a difficult to describe concept.
Well done. Thank you!
Thank you. It sure beats learning it the hard way.
Tom
Awesome, thank you for the perfect instruction! Great timing too, I’m getting my first knee mill next week. 😃
You know, I've been watching machining channels for 5 years or so, I've listened to various people talk about it, I've read about it, but it has never clicked as to *exactly* what the issues were until now. I realize this video is 6 years old, but I want to thank you for somehow getting the old lightbulb in my brain to finally light up and understand what the heck the differences actually meant. I hope you post more, you have a good presentation style. Thanks. And sub'd.
Thanks. I'm currently up to my ears building a new shop, but hope to start posting again, soon. Glad you got something out of the video.
Great video! I would always use a two fluted end mill when machining aluminum! Chips wouldn't load up and better finish! Coolant and or continuous air blast always helped!
Agreed. This was just a demo and I didn't want to risk breaking a large two-flute.
I am glad that I found your channel. This is definitely the best explanation related to milling I saw so far. Can't wait to se all of your video :)
Welcome aboard :)
Very useful. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.
Thanks Tom. Always wanted to have an understanding of the difference. Great novice or hobbyist information.
+Brian Rayburn
Thanks Brian
Hi Tom thank you for a very interesting video on climb and conventional milling . Very well explained. Regards Brian
Thank you for the reply Tom. I am making my own locks(for small boxes),and the stainless steel parts i'm machining are the moving parts of the mechanism. I was under the impression that 304 Grade was easiest to machine.
+Alan Jackson
304 is good for welding and fabrication (sheet metal work), but it doesn't machine well at all. If you have a lot of machining to do and haven't started yet, I would definitely recommend using 303 instead.
Tom
Awesome video and you break it down so that anyone can understand it.
+Michael Pierce
Good to hear.
Thanks Tom. I learned something crucial which will help me when I get my milling machine.
Thanks Tom for the very clear and easily understood demonstration, you certainly have the ability to explain things in a straightforward, logical manner without any superfluous information... easily understood by novices like me, well done and keep it up.
+Peter Baynes
Thank you Peter.
+Toms Techniques
Yeah Tom, You are a great instructor. I completely agree with Peters comment.
+SE45CX
Thanks for watching
Well explained Tom. Interesting view with the camera on the table, part appears stationary and the cutter moving around .
+Bill De La Vega
Thanks Bill.
I wasn't sure how that was going to look, but I thought I'd give it a try. It was a lot easier than hanging the camera off a tripod over the mill. Less scary too.
Tom
Perfect explanation, thanks Tom.. I have a light smaller machine and everything I was reading was to use climb (even the default setting in fusion 360 for gcode) now knowing this I will try conventional for my rough cuts and climb for finishing.. Thanks
+Troy Dawson
Thanks for watching
good video people forget the power in some of the machines they use and how fast thing go wrong when they do ty for posting
+Bleu Wolf
Yup. I wanted to show how much backlash was in the table before taking the cut, but I couldn't move the table by hand. The cutter had no trouble moving it.
Tom
Nice, well thought out presentation Tom. Great job.
Colin :-)
+CompEdgeX
Thanks Colin
thats right, climb milling is recommended for cnc. climb cutting reduces wear, uses less hp, produces better finish, and i believe it makes less heat. thanks for the video!
+the russian machinists
Thanks for watching
Fantastic demonstration video. If you are not an instructor, you probably should be. Thank you for posting this. It really helped me. Big upvote.
Thanks. I was a high school instructor in the 70's, but switched to industry where I could actually make a living. :)
@@TomsTechniques Yes. Regrettably those two things are mutually exclusive. My wife is a teacher.
Good vid there Tom... as an aside, anyone getting into woodworking and more specifically, using a router...
the same theory applies.... except you should NEVER climb cut using a handheld router or even a table-mounted router.
ALWAYS use conventional cutting when routing... 😎
@Peter Fitzpatrick Thank you for that additional tip!
Hello, im a new subscriber. have been in fixture building for the past three years. have watched a couple of your videos to help boost my knowledge on machining. I have been taught by a skilled tradesman of over 45 years experience. This video caught my attention because I never called conventional milling like you call it. I was trained to call it a push cut. as you are pushing forward into the cutter. climb cut was always best to be used for a finish cut. too much feed and too much material with climb cut can result in the cutter walking forward towards the direction you are feeding. the cutter doesn't have time to clean the blade and the left over material stuck on the cutting edge becomes like a grabber instead of cutting. something has to give. either the cutter or the part. I've made this mistake a couple times in my first year. now I can machine and rip thru material, completing my parts faster. thanks for sharing your videos. I will watch more videos if you upload. I know this video is 4 years old. but is still helpful for those trying to learn. thanks!
I have never heard the term "push cut", but it makes perfect sense. You are pushing the work against the rotation of the cutter. It's good to hear you have mastered the concept.
@@TomsTechniques talked to my teacher at work and he said he probably told me conventional push cut just to help me recognize what is actually happening so it isnt too confusing. I guess I didnt pick up the term conventional. Anywho thanks for the reply!
I really enjoy your videos. Straight to the point.
Thanks