In my home country of Argentina, the sisters RSD-16 are still running, pulling freight trains. Many have been re-motorized w EMD power plants due to the inability of finding replacement parts for the engines. But after 60+ years of service, I think we can say that this particular design was ALCO’s best. Great video!!
Ironic that Alco produced the RS11 with long term reliability in mind as what had already ruined the company was the exact opposite a few years earlier with their absolutely horrid quality control and incredibly rushed development and testing time tables. General Motors wasn't in a rush because it didn't have to be. It was able to make calculated and incremental advances to offer better products to a loyal customer base. Also I don't think the "planned obsolesces" really became a thing for American manufacturers until closer to the 1970's. The 70's was a dark time for most American manufacturing across all industries thanks to the switch towards that type of consumerism. As an aside I also used to make the RS11 vs GP7-9 identification mistake. Easiest spotting feature for me became the large single radiator fan vs several smaller ones on EMD's.
The thing is - the 244 was also used in the maritime industry, mainly tugboats. And it's gained bad reputation there helped to drive Alco under. Because, like the trucking industry, manufacturers of diesel engines had their eyes set on conquering the maritime market. Even Mack Trucks made a few marine engines. But GM/EMD already had its foot-in-the-door.
Wish you could have had the movie of A PC RS 11 pulling empty autoracks. The movie shows an RS-11 accelorating from a dead stop. In the process of notching up the exhaust stack starts producing big clouds of black smoke, that by the end all you could see was the locomotive, the entire train had disappeared in the diesel exhaust!
I always like your videos, very informative. I ran the piss out of RS11's for PC in North Jersey back in the '70's. Even though PC was bankrupt, they maintained the locomotive fleet by the book. I never had bells ringing, especially on the electrics, they always ran. I think the RS11 is my favorite ALCo. I miss old school. The Pennsy's fleet had the D24 airbrake, I miss it. The only thing I didn't care for was they were set up long hood forward. I wish they had did something with that turbo and got rid of GE and found some other supplier. Keep up the great work!
Thanks! The RS- 11 was the superior model, at least in my opinion. Its too bad that alco's rep destroyed this model before it ever got into service. Of course, GMs control of the market and massive budget, didn't help alco here either. Thanks for watching!
The gp-9 it's one of the diesels that was use to eradicate steam 🚂. It was sold in an era where any diesel locomotive was bought. The rs11 was made in an era where you have to have improvements to your diesel locomotive to make serviceability easier you were competing against other diesel locomotive line not simply steamed. Diesel locomotives competed for sales against other diesel locomotives. Cost per mile as well as serviceability regarding regular maintenance as well as shopping was considered these factors governed purchases by the railroads. The railroad for also in there deep decline reducing the need for new locomotive. Only general electric and general motors had big corporations backing them which could finance shaky railroads purchase of new locomotive. The Penn Central for instance was giving credit to buy hundreds of new EMD locomotives to replace their first generation diesels. Instead of rebuilding their first generation diesels they got sweetheart deals from EMD and traded in most of their first generation diesel locomotives.spending money they did not have for high-horsepower locomotives they did not need considering the deferred maintenance of the railroads after 20 years had resulted in many slow orders resulting from bad track. A mere 10-years after the wholesale destruction of brand new steam locomotives do to diesel ization many railroads that were in shaky financial condition resulting in poor maintenance which resulted in road failures where sold brand new locomotive they could not afford in reality. It's like running a car on bald tires with black goo for oil in the engine because your income went down so much you cannot afford to change the oil or buy tires yet the car company would tell you here will sell you a new car and you can save some money on maintenance but the railroads could not afford the payments on the new locomotive. Many of the Northeast railroad service coal mines that were closed and factories that had been shipped off shore for cheap labor countries. My mom worked for a lot of companies in New York that left New York because of the taxes.you could move a factory down south to take advantage of non-union labor but that was only the first step towards shipping the whole kit and caboodle offshore. You could close a car plant and the employees would get unemployment for 3 years. Where they would go after that who knows and how can you sell a house in an area where you cannot get a job. The taxation to pay for the beginning of the welfare warfare state was taking its toll on railroads. In the prosperous 1950s the Central railroad of New Jersey was basically taxed to death by the state of New Jersey. Due to the government financed construction of the interstate highway system as well as the airport system after the war to keep the flyboys happy had drained sources of revenue away from the railroads. They also had thousands of retirees to pay pensions for that were not completely funded. The phony energy crisis destroyed the American car industry as well as the American steel industry. All of the power plant for converted to boil in the name of pollution control just in time for the Arabs to quadruple the price of oil 🛢️. Losses from passenger traffic we're horrendous.Amtrak wish more or less created to remove the money hemorrhaging passenger service the railroads were forced to run. They also had to have commuter service that was also unprofitable. The Pennsylvania railroad gave the state of New York the Long Island railroad which atones because it was worthless a money-losing operation. The construction of the Connecticut turnpike alongside the main line of the New Haven took away all of its passenger traffic meanwhile it had to run empty trains with full crews. If the railroad try to just continue on past unprofitable passenger trains the Unions would expect that the cruise would be paid anyway for not working. Union featherbedding of train crew size was another reason for their unprofitable freight service. The Chesapeake and Ohio look into buying the Erie Lackawanna but the union stood fast on having six Man cruise on trains and then hurricane Agnes pretty much wiped out the whole railroad which needed to be rebuilt so the Chesapeake and Ohio backed awaythe New York Central wanted to be merged with the Chesapeake and Ohio but they backed off because the New York Central was in such poor financial shape so they went hat in hand to the Pennsylvania railroad to form the Penn Central which was then forced to take on the money-losing New Haven. For 1/10 of the money the government spent to set up three transportation agencies they could have bought the whole New Haven railroad Lock stock & barrel. Alco made Great locomotive but in a declining market they were not able to survive because they did not have customers they could sell locomotives to. Financial mismanagement was also a reason for the decline of the locomotive market but even if you had a good management structure in place if you have no traffic then you have no business to earn money 💰. Many of the first generation locomotives were released from holding companies and were returned to the leasing companies who could not lease them out so they would be scrapped. Many companies that provided traffic in the 1950s were gone by the late 1960s. Customer service suffered under the old for tonnage guys. Shippers would have to pay for a week worth of car rental because the railroads wanted to wait until they could run a 200 car train with one crew instead of four smaller trains. The bigger railroad Scott the worst their customer service became. When the Long Island railroad current over its freight service to the New York and Atlantic they had 8000 carloads a year. Do to better customer service the New York and Atlantic now has 37000 Car loads a year. So there are many factors regarding whether or not locomotives were purchased. It is not as simple and cut-and-dry as to say that this locomotive was a piece of junk and it was not a good seller when it really was a good locomotive but in a declining market there was no one to sell to. By making ever-increasing horsepower locomotives EMD basically unit reduced themselves out of business. They were bought by general motors when they made money for the company and they were sold when they were losing money.
Great presentation! I didn’t know how much of an effort Alco did to save the company w/ the 251. Impressive. Btw thx for using some of my clips for the vid! Means a lot to me :)
When I worked for CNR in the late 1960s GP-9 and MLW RS-18 (a Canadian version of the RS-11) units had the same tonnage rating. As you stated ALCO units were better at shunting since they accelerated faster. The way to minimise smoke from the Alco units was to pause between each throttle notch and allow the turbocharger to rev up yo the requered speed, something modern diesels do by having a fuel limiting device controlled by intake manifold pressure.
The GP9 was a perfect example of how to make the best use of your resources. ALCO really couldn’t do that especially after GE walked away from ALCO after 1953. ALCO ought to have located a new supplier of electrical equipment, but the problem was that profit margins didn’t meet reasonable expectations that would have justified the investment in railroad equipment. The locomotive market shifted to replacing older locomotives with less reliable components or awkward carbody designs (F units). This marketplace was cutthroat and ALCO wasn’t in the best condition to operate in that environment. Customer service still can be expensive as EMD found out in the early ‘80’s. ALCO’s diversification was, an admission of defeat as far as locomotive design was concerned. They had some good projects in the pipeline but they had bugs ALCO couldn’t afford to eliminate in time. GE’s U28/30 models were not very good and they were taken back in favor of Dash7’s and Dash 8’s which they had to do, often at less favorable prices based upon their quality issues which were sweated out by 1990.
I'll take an RS3 any day. Same with c/m 630 or 636. Now days, its ironic GE and EMD both went 4 cycle. That now EMD is second place, and a lot of railroaders I know hate GE as,well.
The RS-10 was basically an rs-3 in a new body with the un reliable 244. The RS-18 was basically the Canadian version of the Rs-11. Thanks for watching!
Note: the GP 9 came out in 1954 and was actually in production until 1963. My mistake.
In my home country of Argentina, the sisters RSD-16 are still running, pulling freight trains. Many have been re-motorized w EMD power plants due to the inability of finding replacement parts for the engines. But after 60+ years of service, I think we can say that this particular design was ALCO’s best. Great video!!
Excellent video....
Love these locomotives, Alco and EMD....🥰😍😎
Ironic that Alco produced the RS11 with long term reliability in mind as what had already ruined the company was the exact opposite a few years earlier with their absolutely horrid quality control and incredibly rushed development and testing time tables. General Motors wasn't in a rush because it didn't have to be. It was able to make calculated and incremental advances to offer better products to a loyal customer base. Also I don't think the "planned obsolesces" really became a thing for American manufacturers until closer to the 1970's. The 70's was a dark time for most American manufacturing across all industries thanks to the switch towards that type of consumerism. As an aside I also used to make the RS11 vs GP7-9 identification mistake. Easiest spotting feature for me became the large single radiator fan vs several smaller ones on EMD's.
Thank you for using suggestion and making this video, it was very well done!
No problem!
@@alcobufff If your interested I have another idea for a verses video.
Love those Old Alcos have several on my O gauge layout.
The thing is - the 244 was also used in the maritime industry, mainly tugboats. And it's gained bad reputation there helped to drive Alco under. Because, like the trucking industry, manufacturers of diesel engines had their eyes set on conquering the maritime market. Even Mack Trucks made a few marine engines. But GM/EMD already had its foot-in-the-door.
Wish you could have had the movie of A PC RS 11 pulling empty autoracks. The movie shows an RS-11 accelorating from a dead stop. In the process of notching up the exhaust stack starts producing big clouds of black smoke, that by the end all you could see was the locomotive, the entire train had disappeared in the diesel exhaust!
I always like your videos, very informative. I ran the piss out of RS11's for PC in North Jersey back in the '70's. Even though PC was bankrupt, they maintained the locomotive fleet by the book. I never had bells ringing, especially on the electrics, they always ran. I think the RS11 is my favorite ALCo. I miss old school. The Pennsy's fleet had the D24 airbrake, I miss it. The only thing I didn't care for was they were set up long hood forward. I wish they had did something with that turbo and got rid of GE and found some other supplier. Keep up the great work!
Thanks! The RS- 11 was the superior model, at least in my opinion. Its too bad that alco's rep destroyed this model before it ever got into service. Of course, GMs control of the market and massive budget, didn't help alco here either.
Thanks for watching!
2:34 No way!!!! That’s my former friend!!!!
The gp-9 it's one of the diesels that was use to eradicate steam 🚂. It was sold in an era where any diesel locomotive was bought. The rs11 was made in an era where you have to have improvements to your diesel locomotive to make serviceability easier you were competing against other diesel locomotive line not simply steamed. Diesel locomotives competed for sales against other diesel locomotives. Cost per mile as well as serviceability regarding regular maintenance as well as shopping was considered these factors governed purchases by the railroads. The railroad for also in there deep decline reducing the need for new locomotive. Only general electric and general motors had big corporations backing them which could finance shaky railroads purchase of new locomotive. The Penn Central for instance was giving credit to buy hundreds of new EMD locomotives to replace their first generation diesels. Instead of rebuilding their first generation diesels they got sweetheart deals from EMD and traded in most of their first generation diesel locomotives.spending money they did not have for high-horsepower locomotives they did not need considering the deferred maintenance of the railroads after 20 years had resulted in many slow orders resulting from bad track. A mere 10-years after the wholesale destruction of brand new steam locomotives do to diesel ization many railroads that were in shaky financial condition resulting in poor maintenance which resulted in road failures where sold brand new locomotive they could not afford in reality. It's like running a car on bald tires with black goo for oil in the engine because your income went down so much you cannot afford to change the oil or buy tires yet the car company would tell you here will sell you a new car and you can save some money on maintenance but the railroads could not afford the payments on the new locomotive. Many of the Northeast railroad service coal mines that were closed and factories that had been shipped off shore for cheap labor countries. My mom worked for a lot of companies in New York that left New York because of the taxes.you could move a factory down south to take advantage of non-union labor but that was only the first step towards shipping the whole kit and caboodle offshore. You could close a car plant and the employees would get unemployment for 3 years. Where they would go after that who knows and how can you sell a house in an area where you cannot get a job. The taxation to pay for the beginning of the welfare warfare state was taking its toll on railroads. In the prosperous 1950s the Central railroad of New Jersey was basically taxed to death by the state of New Jersey. Due to the government financed construction of the interstate highway system as well as the airport system after the war to keep the flyboys happy had drained sources of revenue away from the railroads. They also had thousands of retirees to pay pensions for that were not completely funded. The phony energy crisis destroyed the American car industry as well as the American steel industry. All of the power plant for converted to boil in the name of pollution control just in time for the Arabs to quadruple the price of oil 🛢️. Losses from passenger traffic we're horrendous.Amtrak wish more or less created to remove the money hemorrhaging passenger service the railroads were forced to run. They also had to have commuter service that was also unprofitable. The Pennsylvania railroad gave the state of New York the Long Island railroad which atones because it was worthless a money-losing operation. The construction of the Connecticut turnpike alongside the main line of the New Haven took away all of its passenger traffic meanwhile it had to run empty trains with full crews. If the railroad try to just continue on past unprofitable passenger trains the Unions would expect that the cruise would be paid anyway for not working. Union featherbedding of train crew size was another reason for their unprofitable freight service. The Chesapeake and Ohio look into buying the Erie Lackawanna but the union stood fast on having six Man cruise on trains and then hurricane Agnes pretty much wiped out the whole railroad which needed to be rebuilt so the Chesapeake and Ohio backed awaythe New York Central wanted to be merged with the Chesapeake and Ohio but they backed off because the New York Central was in such poor financial shape so they went hat in hand to the Pennsylvania railroad to form the Penn Central which was then forced to take on the money-losing New Haven. For 1/10 of the money the government spent to set up three transportation agencies they could have bought the whole New Haven railroad Lock stock & barrel. Alco made Great locomotive but in a declining market they were not able to survive because they did not have customers they could sell locomotives to. Financial mismanagement was also a reason for the decline of the locomotive market but even if you had a good management structure in place if you have no traffic then you have no business to earn money 💰. Many of the first generation locomotives were released from holding companies and were returned to the leasing companies who could not lease them out so they would be scrapped. Many companies that provided traffic in the 1950s were gone by the late 1960s. Customer service suffered under the old for tonnage guys. Shippers would have to pay for a week worth of car rental because the railroads wanted to wait until they could run a 200 car train with one crew instead of four smaller trains. The bigger railroad Scott the worst their customer service became. When the Long Island railroad current over its freight service to the New York and Atlantic they had 8000 carloads a year. Do to better customer service the New York and Atlantic now has 37000 Car loads a year. So there are many factors regarding whether or not locomotives were purchased. It is not as simple and cut-and-dry as to say that this locomotive was a piece of junk and it was not a good seller when it really was a good locomotive but in a declining market there was no one to sell to. By making ever-increasing horsepower locomotives EMD basically unit reduced themselves out of business. They were bought by general motors when they made money for the company and they were sold when they were losing money.
You wrote a good piece Frank, thank you, it helped me connect a few dots for the Erie and how it dissolved in to a conglomerate, good day…
Great presentation! I didn’t know how much of an effort Alco did to save the company w/ the 251. Impressive. Btw thx for using some of my clips for the vid! Means a lot to me :)
Your welcome! Glad you liked it! Thanks again for letting me use some of your footage!
@@alcobufff you’re welcome!
Excellent share well done video all the way 🚂👍🏻😎
When I worked for CNR in the late 1960s GP-9 and MLW RS-18 (a Canadian version of the RS-11) units had the same tonnage rating. As you stated ALCO units were better at shunting since they accelerated faster. The way to minimise smoke from the Alco units was to pause between each throttle notch and allow the turbocharger to rev up yo the requered speed, something modern diesels do by having a fuel limiting device controlled by intake manifold pressure.
The rsc14s were know for slipping ever run one of those ?
Excellent video
Man all your videos are great 👍👍👍 thanks 👍👍
Thanks!
The GP9 was a perfect example of how to make the best use of your resources. ALCO really couldn’t do that especially after GE walked away from ALCO after 1953. ALCO ought to have located a new supplier of electrical equipment, but the problem was that profit margins didn’t meet reasonable expectations that would have justified the investment in railroad equipment. The locomotive market shifted to replacing older locomotives with less reliable components or awkward carbody designs (F units). This marketplace was cutthroat and ALCO wasn’t in the best condition to operate in that environment. Customer service still can be expensive as EMD found out in the early ‘80’s. ALCO’s diversification was, an admission of defeat as far as locomotive design was concerned. They had some good projects in the pipeline but they had bugs ALCO couldn’t afford to eliminate in time. GE’s U28/30 models were not very good and they were taken back in favor of Dash7’s and Dash 8’s which they had to do, often at less favorable prices based upon their quality issues which were sweated out by 1990.
The GP9 had only ended production in 1959, well after the RS11 had entered production in 1956, not before it
I'll take an RS3 any day. Same with c/m 630 or 636. Now days, its ironic GE and EMD both went 4 cycle. That now EMD is second place, and a lot of railroaders I know hate GE as,well.
GE seem to have learned cab ergonomics faster, but EMD still has better long-term reliability and EMD have learned about ergonomics from GE.
Hasnt ge always been 4 stroke ? and emd going to 4 stroke seemed like a dumb move
How did the RS11 compare with the MLW produced RS10s and RS18s?
The RS-10 was basically an rs-3 in a new body with the un reliable 244. The RS-18 was basically the Canadian version of the Rs-11. Thanks for watching!
Great job 🙂☕👍
I also confuse the RS11 with the C420 lol, never with the GP models.