Man, if only Big Clive was my school science teacher way back when, that would've been the highlight of each week and we would've actually learned something too!
It's not only a vent mechanism; it's a small membrane switch that pops up if the cell experiences an overpressure condition due to heat from rapid discharge or improper recharge. The little switch opens the circuit from the anode of the cell to the positive contact on the container, rendering it dead. Some people poke a jeweler's screwdriver through one of the four little holes and pop the membrane switch back down to reactivate the cell, but this is fraught with danger because it deforms the membrane and it will no longer act as a safety. Bang! I appreciate all you do--you are a true role model for young and old people alike; your curiosity and your abilities as a teacher make this world a better place. Cheers!
I remember as a kid unwrapping all the "paper" in capasitors from old tube radios, in a vain attempt to find the "mechanism" inside all that wrapping. Not realizing the "paper" was the "mechanism" in the capasitors.
You crack through so many of those poundland power banks, I just imagine you at the register with an armful of them and the cashier asking "don't you think you've had enough" And you say "I'll tell you when I've had enough!"
+Sam J --> Actually I think Clive has a special arrangement with the stock personnel at his local Poundland so that he can buy them in the 24-count shipping box. LOL Saves them from having to put them on the shelves. ;)
HAHAHAHA! don't they say the same thing to the individual with the metallic gold mustache purchasing multiple cans of metallic pray paint? LOL! STOP SNIFFIN' THAT CLIVE!!!
not rechargeable if seperations and ionic polymers meet! NO CHARGING or LITTLE CHARGE HOLD. and for a proper e-battery for vehicle to work all cells must be approximately the same!
Very interesting! I had no idea that was what killed cells in a pack. I've harvested so many cells from "dead" laptop battery packs for other DIY projects and always found one or more dead cells in them but I never knew why only some died.
If a device can record for more than 30 minutes, it's classed as a video camera and has a higher import duty, so it's an artificial limit for tax purposes.
John Hollowell No, its marketing / sales reasons. Every 1080p camera I have splits the files at the 4Gb barrier. Whether they have a 30 min limit or not. On my Canons, it splits before the 30 minute timeout.
The other feature that gets flagged is “Clean HDMI” out. Usually the cameras that limit at 30 min, don’t provide a full resolution, non-OSD hdmi signal while recording. (Which would be one way around the 30 min timeout. )
Yeah, when cameras stop recording at 30 min, its the tax artificial limit. But the FAT 32 format of most SD cards and other storage devices limits the size of a single file to 4GB. This is why recorders will split the recording into 4GB files.
Autoplay brought forth this gem! This video was a pleasant surprise. Fascinating and entertaining. Feel better about 18650 batteries, no longer a scary mystery.
Sniffs battery, "I forgot what I was saying", goes on and sniffs again, "I forgot what I was just saying" Kinda made me laugh. Found your videos the other day and been watching lots and learning lots too! Lesson#43: never sniff battery guts
This channel interests me so much I enjoy it and never seen someone do such a thorough in-depth teardown of a dead cell very interesting stuff! If only you were my science teacher at school things could of been a lot different lol. Thanks
I used to be a member of a model flying club, and someone crashed one of his planes, putting a dent in the 14v battery pack. He decided to do an experiment by looping the +ve and -ve wires together, then standing well back. The battery took about 20 seconds to start smoking, then at about 60 seconds it exploded. This showered a radius of 8 feet with hundreds of those strips, each one about 10 inches long and 2 inches wide. We had to clear up all the remnants as the field was also used by grazing sheep. Thanks for the video..
Рік тому+4
I've had the same exact thing happened. I was buying old laptop batteries to recycle good cells or sometimes even refurbish them (long time ago). I ended up having bunch of cells that were from 700mAh up to around 3000mAh. Paired them based on their characteristics (6 or 8), made a few working batteries, the rest was used in pairs or singles for various devices as flashlights and electronic cigarettes. What's interesting is that I was able to get some of those back to life. I suspect it was because they went flat in storage, not connected to circuit. They lasted years after that with no problems until I forgot and left them in electronic cigarette for 3 years or so. Even more interesting, one refused to charge at all, one charged nicely up to around 3.8V, then got very hot and started self discharging. Apparently it was bridged already. The other two recovered and were fine for a short time but when they were discharged to around 3V, they suddenly both decided to short out and committed seppuku.
I once had a zinc carbon battery explode right next to me and shoot the carbon rod at my arm at high velocity. I was eating a Bramley apple pie at that moment and accidentally squished it into my face. Before anyone knew what had happened, they all presumed the apple pie had exploded in my face. Henceforth, it was known as: _"The exploding apple pie incident"._ My friend was actually playing with my electronics kit next to me and had inadvertently shorted one of the batteries. That's where the explosion came from.
Back in the early 80s I was in grade school, and a "class clown" in my classroom had to stay inside during lunch hour recess and write his "I will behave" sentences on the chalk board while the rest of us were outside playing. When us kids returned from outside recess, I had noticed the "clown" was at the sink in our classroom, and he was constantly sipping water from a glass jar and spitting it back into the sink. My desk was right next to the sink, and I had asked him why he was doing that. He stuck his tongue out, and there was a BIG NASTY crater of what looked like melted skin in the middle of his tongue. I was shocked, and asked him what in the HELL happened... and he showed me a half disassembled pile of pieces from a 9 volt battery, and told me that he had used his teeth to pull the terminals (of which one of them was some kind of rod) out of the battery, and as it slid out, some kind of "acid" had sprayed out of the hole right onto his tongue and ate some of the skin off it. That was 40 or so years ago, and I STILL have a crystal clear image of the burnt crater on his tongue in my mind. I've had respect for batteries ever since then.
I do l love watching your videos, well for the most part, because I always learn something. For example talking about that damn lead free solder, in my Class A motor home, there is a back up camera, well you need one as you are driving a 36 foot house down the highways at 65 miles per hour, and it is a long way to the back window, which has the shades drawn anyhow as it is a bedroom window. The monitor has given me trouble ever since I purchased it, so in year 2 of my ownership, I pulled it out and tore it down, only to find several broken solder joints. So I heated up the old iron and re-soldered them by simply melting that old solder and allowing it to re-flow. The following year, the same problem! So again, I pulled it out (not an easy chore!) and again re-flowed that solder. She worked another 3,000 miles and now she is doing the same thing. So this time, once I get her out, I am planning on adding some of my wonderful 60/40 lead solder to the mix and see if that holds. The monitor was made in 2003.
OH I was going to mention, the only problem with watching your great videos, is the tennancy of your smoooooooth voice to put me to sleep. My wife keeps telling me that I should watch your videos in bed since I have a hard time getting to sleep at night because I keep getting these long naps at about the middle of the third of your videos I re-watch daily.
As for the insides... yes, the cap has a vent. (and in cells ment for retail use, there's supposed to be fuse) The electrolyte is a modern witch's brew. It used to be something similar to anti-freeze (glycol), but today, they are an extremely complex mix of organic solvents and salts. (and potentially flammable, but less pyrophoric than the first battery you took apart!) If you look at the side that was touching the copper, there's a copper sheen in the electrolyte. (bingo! she's dead.)
there's a copper sheen in the electrolyte. (bingo! she's dead.) ---------------------- What exactly is dead? Did copper got in the electrolyte? But how did that kill the battery? Thanks.
Multi-cell reverse charging may explain why LiPo batteries for radio controlled models have both a power plug and a 'balance' plug. The latter is used to bring each cell up to voltage independently while charging (as I understand it.) Thanks for the video. Reminds me of when I was a kid and took some dead zinc carbon batteries apart. I tried to make an arc light using the carbon electrodes, but the circuit breaker on my electric train transformer kept popping before the electrodes did anything other than glow red (which probably was a good thing!)
Yep. The balance plug is indeed used to prevent one cell from rising over it's max voltage during charging, as the charger has access to each individual cell in the pack through the balance plug, and will automatically cap the max voltage to each cell. In theory, balance charging will also help to prevent the damaging "reverse charging" scenario during the packs use, because the cells all started with the same exact voltage when the pack is then used. (As long as the cells are all healthy, and were matched well before it was assembled.) In my opinion it still pays, with lithium packs, to stop using them before the BMS cuts them off, and recharge them. Doing this extends the life of the pack, and ensures that there is no way to possibly run into the reverse charging situation.
I almost caught my trailer on fire messing with a jump start battery.I did the force charge thing like you did.(This was 2 yrs ago before I saw this video).Well I put it away after unsuccessfully trying,and began smelling a horrible aroma coming from the closet.I quickly thru it out the door and it popped and burst into flames! It scared the be-jesus out of me thinking how close I came to possibly dying in a trailer fire.Reminded me the episode of " Minder" when Arthur is erroneously diagnosed with a fatal illness and the caravan burns up.lol.I'm a Floridian but love UK TV shows.
This reminds me of when I was much younger, when I was about 8 years old, even then I was curious of what was in side batteries, I took apart various types of D cell, and 9 volt ones, the big old PP9 radio ones were very messy full of black carbon powder! It was also intresting to dismantle big old school transformers with literally miles of copper wire inside!
the black powder is manganese dioxide and it is moist with ammonium chloride solution. The electrode in the middle is a carbon rod. And has a zinc outer coat.
Hey, if I've understood your comments correctly, a reversed diode across each cell in a lithium pack (schottky even better) would go a long way to avoid risk of killing cells when charging. Don't think that would work as easily in a paralleled arrangement i.e. where the charge current exceeds the capacity of inexpensive rectifiers - say 20 amp. Surprised you don't see that in DIY construction.
With both the speed of self discharge that you showed, and the low current draw, I believe the internal short would be close to the tap on that electrode. The etched bit close to the center of the spiral is making the entire rest of the cell unchargable. Great job on finding that failure point Clive!
Small point-and-shoot cameras are legally limited to 20-30 minutes, Tom Scott did a video on that, or mentioned it in one of their Park Bench episodes. They are not considered "movie cameras" so the distinction is hard wired into them.
Legally limited where? Any how do you define a "small point-and-shoot" camera? I've never bought a camera that is artificially limited to 20-30 minutes
In Europe there is a tax levied on devices capable of recording more than 30 minutes. Manufacturers of mainly still cameras thus limit to 29:59 artificially to avoid having to increase the price for something that's not a main feature.
Clive, maybe next time you should leave the bad battery connected to the bench power supply for some time (under close supervision). The suspected short circuit channel in the foil should heat up and hopefully that could leave a more visible mark on the separator. I suspect the trick would be to turn the current off before it causes a thermal runoff.
Couldn't you have just used the multimeter to probe resistance directly through that membrane with the graphite still on it? As you move the probes, you should be able to pinpoint where exactly the fault is, and it should also allow you to detect microscopic metal dendrites that have punctured the separator... unless I'm totally missing the boat on this one, again.
Ignes Andros; More messy than washing off all of the graphite to try and visually see a hole underneath? That paste is quite firmly on there, simply moving the probes around on it shouldn't be THAT messy...
MRLT You might punch holes with the probes. Which is why I would take 2 metal plates and put them on both sides, now you can measure a bigger area and not risk puncturing it
Reviews+Tutorials Yeah that is a good idea. The only issue is that the larger the squares are, the less likely you will be able to localize the small pinhole. Perhaps simply submerging it in a shallow amount of water, on top of a large piece of Aluminium foil, would be better. You could attach one probe to the foil (which touches one side of the seperator), and then simply move the other, small probe tip around without actually touching the coating at all. The water's resistance should be large enough (regular tap water should be fine), so that you could easily tell when you're right over the hole.
MRLT Or you could just move one plate after you found the short so the area where they are on top of each other is smaller. And simply keep making the area smaller until you found the point
Taken from a icr14500 3.7v 1600mAh datasheet with in arms length. Aluminum Foil (Al) 5% Copper Foil (Cu) 10% Cobalt lithium dioxide (CoO2.Li) 40% Graphite (C) 20% Electrolyte 15% Aluminium plastic film 5% PCB 5% Yes the data sheet used both Al spellings. lol Just to give an idea what is in a similar cell.
Interesting. I've noted that down and looked it up too. Quite nice that the technology was developed by a German-born American in England. That covers every base. Even better that he is actually called John B Goodenough.
bigclivedotcom if you feel particularly happy, you may have lithium poisoning. Lol. But actually, I bet you could eat all the powder and still be fine... The compounds listed have pretty high intake requirements to be toxic...
CLIVE - What I got from our secret German Wunderwaffe papers below concerning your cell: 1) The Kathode is Lithium-Kobalt-Oxid. The Kathode is sitting on Aluminium. The Aluminium is merely the conductor/contact, NOT the Kathode. 2) The Anode is Carbon in the form of Graphit. The Graphit is sitting on Copper. The Copper is merely the conductor/contact, NOT the Anode. 3) There should be wetness in form of electrolyte (lithium-salt + organic-solvent) between Anode and Cathode and you only have dry crumbs. I suspect, that like in an old Kondensator or capacitor as you call it, the solvent of the electrolyte has dried up in your cell. Try adding some Ethylencarbonate and Dimethylcarbonate in a mixture 1:1 and have a look if the cell works again. But check first under a microscope, if the nanostructures in the graphite layer are still OK and if the SEI layer (Solid Elektrolyte Interphase) is intact.
This video was so cool! I was in the middle of taking apart a laptop battery pack that had gone bad and refused to take a charge and it turns out that my pack has the same bright green samsung ICR18650-22F cells in it that you show here. I wanted to take a cell apart to see how it was constructed inside but now I dont need to. I have a feeling my pack went bad due to the controller refusing to charge the cells due to the voltage falling below the minimum threshold the controller deemed "safe" to attempt a recharge on. The laptop had been sitting unused for over a year so the cells had discharged on their own due to internal resistance. If only I had plugged it in 6 months ago oh well lol
"Let me take another whiff of that electrolyte... what was I taking about -- I forget." -- LOL But you still managed to make a really great video that explains way more than the average tear-down video.
I use these lithium cells every day. I am a Vaper, and use mechanical mods. This has been one of the most interesting videos I've seen in a long time! Thanks!
Probably not the ones in the video because they are probably going to be of the low discharge variety Aand I just googled them and they are only rated for 5.6A maximum discharge, so you could only use them for tanks that use less than 17w
Take one bottle of generic vodka and add two drips (and I really mean just two drips) of essential juniper oil and one (once again just ONE drip in a 750ml bottle of vodka) of four thieves essential oil. It will convert the vodka into an aromatic gin. Four thieves oil contains clove, lemon, cinnamon, eucalyptus and rosemary oil. Do not add too much oil or it rapidly becomes overpowering and unpleasant. Ethanol is a solvent, so when the bottle is shaken the oils will diffuse into it.
I would think you could place a diode in parallel with each cell and that way if there was reverse bias it would just get shunted. I am sure the manufacturer would know this but want you to have to replace them periodically.
My girlfriend's laptop battery was killed by a dodgy charger and I thought I could open it and charge it above the cut off voltage if they were low, or replace the defective cell but nope. The protection IC failed. The batteries were completely fine and so too were the fuse and diode/mosfets... Sods law.
That makes NO sense. There is no charging circuitry inside the laptop battery pack. It's all on the laptop motherboard. The only thing you will find inside the battery pack is overcharge/discharge protection, fuelguage and some other safety mechanisms (over temp shutoff, chemical fuse etc.)
I have experienced a number of lithium batteries fail from the protection IC taking a dump. The tiny epoxy encapsulation of the IC itself had deteriorated, turned into a substance like a putty. Lead wires to the die lose support and break. Replaced the IC and good to go. I guess when China runs put of regular encapsulation epoxy, they use dog shit, newspaper bits or whatever can be found to load into the encapsulation molding machine.
zapro_dk I didn't say there was charging circuitry in the pack.. although there is balancing circuitry in most if not all packs. Most protection ICs will separate the battery pack if it detects any faults (over temp, under voltage, overvoltage etc) this is marked as a flag and some batteries allow a certain number of flags before it's deemed unusable. I was hoping that one of the cells were low from the dodgy charger lead shorting out or some other easy fix. Hope this cleared some of your confusion up
Charge IC has some eeprom inside that it uses to record cell condition, and when it detects failed cells it writes the eeprom with a fail code and then stops responding. Can be reset with the right software and programmer. Others also have a fail safe blowable fuse on them that the charge controller blows open as a final safety to protect the cells from abuse, along with the regular mosfet charge and discharge control switches. they all will have a thermal one time fuse as final overheat protection, though there are plenty of examples of these being a little too late to prevent the battery catching fire as it vents the electrolyte and it contacts a source of ignition.
Clive, active bypass diodes could limit reverse bias to just millivolts - they are just mosfets with a charge pump to run the gate This is why they are used on solar panels to prevent groups of shaded cells from becoming reversed biased and turning into heat sources that could damage the cells, cause hotspots or even cause a fire. They could be used on lithium cells too for currents
You sure about that? Whether charging or discharging, the cell's anode always stays more positive than the cathode so the diode would never become reverse biased, unless the cell is completely depleted and/or overpowered by the other cells in series.
I understand "diode between the batteries" as putting diodes and batteries in series, which would allow current to only flow in one direction. Hence only either charging or discharging would be possible, depending on the oriente of the diodes you put in place.
you let me down cliive, i thought you were gonna say "...and let's open that..uh..." I was thinking "bottle," because you had just mentioned gin, but you didn't, you went with something straight laced and got back to business...oh well. i was hoping you were gonna take a load off yer back and toss back a few and run out the clock on the rest of your workday...you've definitely earned it. another good, show. i'm glad i found your channel this past week. i'll be watching, keep the good vids coming, thanks
The smell is most probably propylene carbonate. It's not great for you, but it really isn't all that bad either (especially as far as solvents go). The REAL issue is the lithium salts that are dissolved in that solvent. Soluble Lithium salts are themselves really not something you want to risk getting on your skin (it easily gets absorbed and really fucks up your brain). As for the anion paired with the lithium, there really is no way of knowing. Some of them really aren't that bad, while others readily decompose into such wonderful things as HF (Hydrofluoric Acid) and Phosphine Gas, upon exposure to air, water and/or heat. All in all, the only thing I'd really be worried about is the small amount of lithium that gets sprayed all over the bench. One day in the future, you WILL touch the bench and afterward go to eat something without washing your hands first, thereby ingesting a few milligrams of Lithium.
You realise you're saying this to a large Scottish man who drinks gin while making these videos, don't you? :) Also, if we're freaking out about dangerous heavy metals, best start prying out those amalgam fillings before the mercury rots your brain ;-)
Or ethylene carbonate. 18650s pretty much behave as any sealed metal cylinder such as a tin of beans containing a liquid - if heated to extremes it may vent -- sometimes violently -- and as ethylene carbonate is flammable, it may or may not ignite depending if it comes into contact with a spark or red hot conductor. The real concern with lithium cells is not the small amount of lithium they contain, but those that contain carcinogenic cobalt compounds such as most LiPo pouch cells and 18650s with an ICR prefix. These should be recycled and never thrown away - not least because cobalt is currently $80,000 per ton! Not all 18650s contain cobalt. A browse through wikipedia on any of the many different compounds found in lithium cells will provide a lot of useful information. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_cobalt_oxide
I've been restoring a HP HDX 9000 from 2007. The battery that I had with it was not really holding much of a charge anymore, it'll keep it in sleep mode for a couple of days but the moment you put under a load it would die. I wanted to take it apart and put fresh 18650 sales in it. I figured upgrading the stock ones to Samsung 3500 milliamp hour ones would not only be more affordable than buying a new battery, but also give it significantly more capacity. Long story short, I literally destroyed that battery trying to get it open. I tried using prying tools to pry open at the seam but it was not budging. Finally I mutilated the top of the battery where the plastic was the thinnest, and I was able to extract the batteries but when I was extracting it, I accidentally shorted the batteries with the BMS and made magic smoke and I'm like well so much for that idea. And even then the batteries were tack welded on, there was no chance that I was even going to be able to extract them anyway. I think next time I'll probably buy a precision rotary tool, get it open at least, and then take it to a nearby repair place and maybe see if they have ways to unweld the old batteries and weld on the new ones.
Big Clive, I am a battery researcher, you have a lot of little things wrong here. Maybe you are simplifying, but I would be careful talking about chemistry like this. Over discharge damages the copper foil on the cathode which can result in lowered potential, dendrite formation, and damage to the anode. I can go through this with you if you like.
I (and I'm sure many others) would be very interested to hear. I always like hearing from a real researcher / professional. I have read a lot and it seems most people just recite the same things and clives reverse charge explanation sounds best to me so far. I've totally discharged some cells but whenever any are reverse charged (such as in a pack) the casualties are very high. Way higher than 0v discharges. I don't know chemistry though.....
volvo09 He isn't wrong about the plating aspect, although that rarely happens. My main issue with his analysis is that is leaves out the electrolyte, cathode material ( it isn't graphite, it is generally a lithiated cobalt or manganese oxide structure) and SEI (solid electrolyte interface). Lithium ion batteries are not chemically stable, the electrolyte will attack the anode and cathode materials (generally carbonates mixed with lithium hexafluorophosphate) but are inhibited by the SEI. Too much heat and the electrolyte can further react creating those pretty explosions we see which also release things like HF gas. The electrical potential is part of it, but the chemical degradation is where the smoke and flames come from.
0:20 "... best of all, black rubber gloves; it's going to get scientific, 007" (Q to Bond) - alternatively the Bond-villain (followed by manic laughter, natch). Another great one BC - thank you.
That looks like the exact battery pack that died in my Samsung laptop, took me a good while to get the damn folks over there to replace it. But yeah that laptop was a POS
G'day, Clive! Yes! Very cool! It was quite interesting, seeing the insides of a lithium cell!! Thank you very much for the marvelous "teardown of faulty Samsung lithium 18650 cell!! (2200mAh) Well done! Cheers! :-)🔋😊❤️
22:08 "the smell is actually really pleasant but people keep saying _OH don't breath it!_ " A pleasant thing isn't necessarily safe for you. An analogy using taste... Lead (II) acetate was once a sweetener.
Hear, hear Wolfin. I managed a chemical plant that manufactured polyurethane adhesive in twin 4oz tube dispensers with a mix tip (like epoxy twin tubes). The main chemicals used for the urethane reactions were isocyanates, clear syrupy liquids that had only a faint smell of fruit (apple, pear, peach). To the uninitiated they appeared relatively benign. However, they are deceptive. Being able to detect their faint pleasant smell at all meant that one was being exposed to an unsafe concentration level. As with many other dangerous materials, initial, and even repetitive, exposure sometimes did not immediately manifest the harm that's been done. The isocyanates are also powerful sensitizers. This means that each exposure increases one's sensitivity to the next exposure, i.e. the level of exposure required for profound respiratory and other symptoms of toxicity to present is decreased. Direct exposure of the skin to the finished product or precursors would cause no apparent harm if the area was briefly flushed with water (which catalyzed the formation of the inert polymer). If left untreated, however, a lesion would develop as with sensitizers like poison ivy, oak, sumac...etc. The method of producing the product (compounding, packaging, testing, quality control and equipment maintenance) meant that all company personnel had the opportunity to come in contact with clear, mostly odorless, reactive material on any, and all, surfaces. Opening any door could contaminate oneself. This was especially problematic as regards the bathroom door-as you can well imagine. Over time, depending on the thickness of the deposit, moisture in the air polymerized the isocyanates rendering them inert. Unfortunately, although I provided half-mask respirators (HEPA /activated charcoal filters) & nitrile gloves, performed lung function & respirator fit tests and gave initial, as well as ongoing safety training on chemical hazards and protective equipment, almost every new employee had to experience at least one incidence of poison ivy-like rash. The rash doesn't spread, it can itch a little bit and disappears in a couple of days, but it spooked the heck out of people. The new hires had little understanding of the importance of my rash prevention warnings, no matter how simple and emphatic I made them. They all, of course, no matter how small the lesion, with no exception, insisted on seeing a doctor, thereby creating an insurance premium increasing incident reportable to Workman's Compensation as a work related injury requiring a doctor's care.
Thanks Clive, I find your videos so interesting. I'd do most of these deconstructions myself very happily, but this one... hmm, I was nervous enough watching it from here! Play safe my friend!
I have opened quite a few old laptop battery packs and its always a 3s pack made out of 18650s Normal sized ones have 2 cells in parallel and bigger ones have 3 cells in parallel. Its quite a good source for lower spec 18650s if you can get them cheap or for free. I used to go to my local recycling center and ask politely and would usually be allowed to take a few I would advise to leave the nickel tabs if you want to do the same but dont have a spot welder, that way you dont have to solder to the cells directly (which might damage them) but can instead solder to the tabs
"I've forgotten again..." Smell that carcinogenic goodness :-) Fire Department: "We could not save the house, but we did find that the fire started in the trap of the kitchen sink. We also think it was strange the the neighbors trash can burst in flames."
Your voice sounds like a teacher that I used to know when I was a small child. He used to behaved and talked in a very similar way to you, and now I know that a lot of this ascent is Scottish in origin. I have noticed a few differences in Scottish ascents, being that I have known of them and stayed in Scotland for about 1-2 months. Scotland is fascinating. That teacher also used to have a beard like you as well; there was something about that teacher that used to interest me, I don't why; but he used to play the piano at school very well in assembly time, and this was in primary school.... I think looking back at it now, he was kind of trying to have fun with the kids in his own unique way.
Don't listen to him. They cannot be discharged to zero without causing physical and chemical damage to the cell. Will it work after doing so? Maybe - if it's been done rarely, and never left at zero for long. (I wish I had bookmarked the video series where they tested 1000 identical cells. They were looking at them under an electron microscope to see the exact effects of deep discharges and multiple recharge cycles. They were also testing different electrolytes; the moral of the story: manufacturers know infinitely more than lab geeks.)
bigclivedotcom thank you. It's my birthday in may, end of may, so I might have enough money to go camping. I'll look up the place you said. Cheers man.
I had a lot to do with the early lithium polymer aluminium pillow style batteries for radio control. In this application everyone wanted the maximum discharge current donated in multiples of “C” being the capacity of the pack. Early packs from memory where rated at 5C and the last I remember up to 40C and I think much greater now. Balance charging was the order of the day so individual pin outs for each cell and a loom and balancers or balance chargers. And caution advised when running packs in parallel. The ducted fan boys had recharging trailers set up with multiple good 12 volt batteries chargers and serious “fanatics” see what I did there camping generators. They where getting to voltage levels with multiple series packs that required an electrician to approve and ducted fan thrusts in the 10 kg range similar to a medium sized turbine. I have successfully recovered packs where one cell has dropped under three volts by charging this cell individually on low current until over three volts then you can charge at 1C. Safe charging of all these cells was 1C with later cells taking 2 or 3C. Very interesting tech and made electric flight a reality for radio control. Wobbels the mad Aussie.
Very interesting, i have never taken a lithium battery apart before and now i have no need to. Just so completely different from the older carbon type batteries. I wish i had had professor Alice Roberts as my history teacher, i would definitely have taken an interest. However, my old physics teacher was one of only three teachers i got on well with at my old school.
FYI- these are EXCELLENT tare down vids. You may want to also tare down some known perfect cells of the same brand, at the same time? Really entertaining man, thanks and +REP
Before it was washed off, the graphite material that against the copper did appear to have a slightly coppery sheen or color appearance compared to the aluminum side. which looked slightly darker. Perhaps it might be worth taking apart an undamaged cell to see if a similar coppery sheen is present there too?
Man, if only Big Clive was my school science teacher way back when, that would've been the highlight of each week and we would've actually learned something too!
He’d have been the most dank teacher ever! Whatever he taught, students would remember forever!
Yeah, and with all the dangerous stuff he does he would have fitted in well in the 70's when I was doing science
MY science teacher in them 80’s at Havasu high was the best and let me get in early and set up and test things.
Where is it the a in have is included in contractions?
@@nicewhenearnedrudemostlyel489 well spotted, looks like the English teacher wasn't the best either!
This is the first time I've ever seen anyone perform such an extensive autopsy... on a dead lithium battery. Very cool, very informative, thank you.
350k views tearing down an 18650. clive you are an absolute legend.
It's not only a vent mechanism; it's a small membrane switch that pops up if the cell experiences an overpressure condition due to heat from rapid discharge or improper recharge. The little switch opens the circuit from the anode of the cell to the positive contact on the container, rendering it dead. Some people poke a jeweler's screwdriver through one of the four little holes and pop the membrane switch back down to reactivate the cell, but this is fraught with danger because it deforms the membrane and it will no longer act as a safety. Bang!
I appreciate all you do--you are a true role model for young and old people alike; your curiosity and your abilities as a teacher make this world a better place. Cheers!
I remember as a kid unwrapping all the "paper" in capasitors from old tube radios, in a vain attempt to find the "mechanism" inside all that wrapping. Not realizing the "paper" was the "mechanism" in the capasitors.
Leif Neland we did that at electronics collage years ago!
Me too XD
Holy shit, no PCB then?
sure their was he absorbed it thats why he is out of his mind and posting on youtube
In high school we would 'unwrap' them with overvoltage
I love how I watch your videos silently and just learning.
You crack through so many of those poundland power banks, I just imagine you at the register with an armful of them and the cashier asking "don't you think you've had enough"
And you say "I'll tell you when I've had enough!"
Sam J in my local pound land the power banks now cost £2!!! That's a 100% increase!
+Sam J --> Actually I think Clive has a special arrangement with the stock personnel at his local Poundland so that he can buy them in the 24-count shipping box. LOL Saves them from having to put them on the shelves. ;)
HAHAHAHA! don't they say the same thing to the individual with the metallic gold mustache purchasing multiple cans of metallic pray paint? LOL! STOP SNIFFIN' THAT CLIVE!!!
"You DO know these are rechargeable, right?"
not rechargeable if seperations and ionic polymers meet! NO CHARGING or LITTLE CHARGE HOLD. and for a proper e-battery for vehicle to work all cells must be approximately the same!
Any video featuring the explosion containment pie dish is a good video in my book.
youtube has me stuck in a loop of your videos. Honestly, I don't mind & I'm gaining an appreciation for your brand of humor.
You are the first person to explain this in a way I can "wrap" my head around. Thanks Clive. Love the accent! (English American and 56).
Very interesting! I had no idea that was what killed cells in a pack. I've harvested so many cells from "dead" laptop battery packs for other DIY projects and always found one or more dead cells in them but I never knew why only some died.
Love the smell of lithium burning in the morning ! Gave you thumbs up 3 years ago !!!
I really love how well you can explain technicalities, great job as usual Clive
I just found this guy today and he has the most soothing voice ever doesn’t he
The moment you see the pie dish and get excited
If a device can record for more than 30 minutes, it's classed as a video camera and has a higher import duty, so it's an artificial limit for tax purposes.
One example of complete bullshit regulations from the last century.
or it could be the 4GB filesize limit on FAT32 storage devices.
John Hollowell No, its marketing / sales reasons. Every 1080p camera I have splits the files at the 4Gb barrier. Whether they have a 30 min limit or not. On my Canons, it splits before the 30 minute timeout.
The other feature that gets flagged is “Clean HDMI” out. Usually the cameras that limit at 30 min, don’t provide a full resolution, non-OSD hdmi signal while recording. (Which would be one way around the 30 min timeout. )
Yeah, when cameras stop recording at 30 min, its the tax artificial limit. But the FAT 32 format of most SD cards and other storage devices limits the size of a single file to 4GB. This is why recorders will split the recording into 4GB files.
"I've forgotten again" - Perhaps the carcinogens?
More likely the gin ;)
I'm very easily distracted when opening things. I tend to go off at random tangents all the time.
perhaps!
Single malts.
That's why I watch...
Autoplay brought forth this gem! This video was a pleasant surprise. Fascinating and entertaining. Feel better about 18650 batteries, no longer a scary mystery.
"If your workbench is cluttered, it's the sign of science happening."
Sniffs battery, "I forgot what I was saying", goes on and sniffs again, "I forgot what I was just saying"
Kinda made me laugh. Found your videos the other day and been watching lots and learning lots too!
Lesson#43: never sniff battery guts
This channel interests me so much I enjoy it and never seen someone do such a thorough in-depth teardown of a dead cell very interesting stuff! If only you were my science teacher at school things could of been a lot different lol. Thanks
I used to be a member of a model flying club, and someone crashed one of his planes, putting a dent in the 14v battery pack. He decided to do an experiment by looping the +ve and -ve wires together, then standing well back. The battery took about 20 seconds to start smoking, then at about 60 seconds it exploded. This showered a radius of 8 feet with hundreds of those strips, each one about 10 inches long and 2 inches wide. We had to clear up all the remnants as the field was also used by grazing sheep. Thanks for the video..
I've had the same exact thing happened. I was buying old laptop batteries to recycle good cells or sometimes even refurbish them (long time ago). I ended up having bunch of cells that were from 700mAh up to around 3000mAh. Paired them based on their characteristics (6 or 8), made a few working batteries, the rest was used in pairs or singles for various devices as flashlights and electronic cigarettes. What's interesting is that I was able to get some of those back to life. I suspect it was because they went flat in storage, not connected to circuit. They lasted years after that with no problems until I forgot and left them in electronic cigarette for 3 years or so. Even more interesting, one refused to charge at all, one charged nicely up to around 3.8V, then got very hot and started self discharging. Apparently it was bridged already. The other two recovered and were fine for a short time but when they were discharged to around 3V, they suddenly both decided to short out and committed seppuku.
At 21:30 when Clive imitates a giddy teen know-it-all is just priceless!
I once had a zinc carbon battery explode right next to me and shoot the carbon rod at my arm at high velocity. I was eating a Bramley apple pie at that moment and accidentally squished it into my face. Before anyone knew what had happened, they all presumed the apple pie had exploded in my face. Henceforth, it was known as: _"The exploding apple pie incident"._
My friend was actually playing with my electronics kit next to me and had inadvertently shorted one of the batteries. That's where the explosion came from.
didn't even know that was possible... was it like a D size battery or was it from a lantern battery?
@@fungusenthusiast8249
AA size. I didn't think they could explode either. Must've been fully sealed batteries. Cheapo ones off the market.
Back in the early 80s I was in grade school, and a "class clown" in my classroom had to stay inside during lunch hour recess and write his "I will behave" sentences on the chalk board while the rest of us were outside playing.
When us kids returned from outside recess, I had noticed the "clown" was at the sink in our classroom, and he was constantly sipping water from a glass jar and spitting it back into the sink. My desk was right next to the sink, and I had asked him why he was doing that. He stuck his tongue out, and there was a BIG NASTY crater of what looked like melted skin in the middle of his tongue. I was shocked, and asked him what in the HELL happened... and he showed me a half disassembled pile of pieces from a 9 volt battery, and told me that he had used his teeth to pull the terminals (of which one of them was some kind of rod) out of the battery, and as it slid out, some kind of "acid" had sprayed out of the hole right onto his tongue and ate some of the skin off it. That was 40 or so years ago, and I STILL have a crystal clear image of the burnt crater on his tongue in my mind. I've had respect for batteries ever since then.
I do l love watching your videos, well for the most part, because I always learn something. For example talking about that damn lead free solder, in my Class A motor home, there is a back up camera, well you need one as you are driving a 36 foot house down the highways at 65 miles per hour, and it is a long way to the back window, which has the shades drawn anyhow as it is a bedroom window. The monitor has given me trouble ever since I purchased it, so in year 2 of my ownership, I pulled it out and tore it down, only to find several broken solder joints. So I heated up the old iron and re-soldered them by simply melting that old solder and allowing it to re-flow. The following year, the same problem! So again, I pulled it out (not an easy chore!) and again re-flowed that solder. She worked another 3,000 miles and now she is doing the same thing. So this time, once I get her out, I am planning on adding some of my wonderful 60/40 lead solder to the mix and see if that holds. The monitor was made in 2003.
OH I was going to mention, the only problem with watching your great videos, is the tennancy of your smoooooooth voice to put me to sleep. My wife keeps telling me that I should watch your videos in bed since I have a hard time getting to sleep at night because I keep getting these long naps at about the middle of the third of your videos I re-watch daily.
I wonder if one could blow the short out?
... I have a welder that can do 250A ...
Thanks for risking your eyes and fingers for our entertainment, Clive. We appreciate it.
Alternative title is "Reading the Forbidden Scrolls"
34:47 shows a more transparent spot roughly in the same place as the spot on the copper.
Indeed!
As for the insides... yes, the cap has a vent. (and in cells ment for retail use, there's supposed to be fuse) The electrolyte is a modern witch's brew. It used to be something similar to anti-freeze (glycol), but today, they are an extremely complex mix of organic solvents and salts. (and potentially flammable, but less pyrophoric than the first battery you took apart!) If you look at the side that was touching the copper, there's a copper sheen in the electrolyte. (bingo! she's dead.)
there's a copper sheen in the electrolyte. (bingo! she's dead.)
----------------------
What exactly is dead? Did copper got in the electrolyte? But how did that kill the battery? Thanks.
A box of broken glass is the exactly the correct focus target for this channel Clive.
You should be careful combining Gin and electricity. Gin can be as much as 60% water, and we all know water and electricity don't go well together.
And tonic water is like 90% water, that's some nasty stuff...
But Gin goes great with everything!
Is that a problem?
This is a piece of foam.
They really should not put so large amounts of dangerous water into their gin.
Clive: **dons rubber gloves and fetches explosion containment pie dish**
Me: **gets comfy and prepares for science**
Multi-cell reverse charging may explain why LiPo batteries for radio controlled models have both a power plug and a 'balance' plug. The latter is used to bring each cell up to voltage independently while charging (as I understand it.)
Thanks for the video. Reminds me of when I was a kid and took some dead zinc carbon batteries apart. I tried to make an arc light using the carbon electrodes, but the circuit breaker on my electric train transformer kept popping before the electrodes did anything other than glow red (which probably was a good thing!)
Yep. The balance plug is indeed used to prevent one cell from rising over it's max voltage during charging, as the charger has access to each individual cell in the pack through the balance plug, and will automatically cap the max voltage to each cell. In theory, balance charging will also help to prevent the damaging "reverse charging" scenario during the packs use, because the cells all started with the same exact voltage when the pack is then used. (As long as the cells are all healthy, and were matched well before it was assembled.) In my opinion it still pays, with lithium packs, to stop using them before the BMS cuts them off, and recharge them. Doing this extends the life of the pack, and ensures that there is no way to possibly run into the reverse charging situation.
I almost caught my trailer on fire messing with a jump start battery.I did the force charge thing like you did.(This was 2 yrs ago before I saw this video).Well I put it away after unsuccessfully trying,and began smelling a horrible aroma coming from the closet.I quickly thru it out the door and it popped and burst into flames! It scared the be-jesus out of me thinking how close I came to possibly dying in a trailer fire.Reminded me the episode of " Minder" when Arthur is erroneously diagnosed with a fatal illness and the caravan burns up.lol.I'm a Floridian but love UK TV shows.
This reminds me of when I was much younger, when I was about 8 years old, even then I was curious of what was in side batteries, I took apart various types of D cell, and 9 volt ones, the big old PP9 radio ones were very messy full of black carbon powder! It was also intresting to dismantle big old school transformers with literally miles of copper wire inside!
the black powder is manganese dioxide and it is moist with ammonium chloride solution. The electrode in the middle is a carbon rod. And has a zinc outer coat.
You have saved me a fair amount of money on cordless tool batteries with videos like this.
Hey, if I've understood your comments correctly, a reversed diode across each cell in a lithium pack (schottky even better) would go a long way to avoid risk of killing cells when charging. Don't think that would work as easily in a paralleled arrangement i.e. where the charge current exceeds the capacity of inexpensive rectifiers - say 20 amp. Surprised you don't see that in DIY construction.
With both the speed of self discharge that you showed, and the low current draw, I believe the internal short would be close to the tap on that electrode. The etched bit close to the center of the spiral is making the entire rest of the cell unchargable. Great job on finding that failure point Clive!
Talks and abut cells bursting into flames and then next sentence is "where's my knife".
He has an explosion containment pie dish.
10/10 didn't know what you were talking about but was still a VERY ENJOYABLE VIDEO.
21:30 "Oh no, it's full of dangerous chemicals and you'll get ca~ncer, and you'll die~, heeheeheeheehee" 😂
Small point-and-shoot cameras are legally limited to 20-30 minutes, Tom Scott did a video on that, or mentioned it in one of their Park Bench episodes. They are not considered "movie cameras" so the distinction is hard wired into them.
Dustin Sparks as hard wired as a firmware hack
Legally limited where? Any how do you define a "small point-and-shoot" camera? I've never bought a camera that is artificially limited to 20-30 minutes
It's a taxation or customs/tariff thing, can't remember exactly(not gin, but beer to blame now)
In Europe there is a tax levied on devices capable of recording more than 30 minutes. Manufacturers of mainly still cameras thus limit to 29:59 artificially to avoid having to increase the price for something that's not a main feature.
This explains it quite well: www.tested.com/tech/photography/44445-why-digital-cameras-have-a-30-minute-video-recording-limit/
Clive, maybe next time you should leave the bad battery connected to the bench power supply for some time (under close supervision). The suspected short circuit channel in the foil should heat up and hopefully that could leave a more visible mark on the separator. I suspect the trick would be to turn the current off before it causes a thermal runoff.
Awesome! Nit pick : 13:59 - it's conductance. You implied resistance like there was less before.
Couldn't you have just used the multimeter to probe resistance directly through that membrane with the graphite still on it? As you move the probes, you should be able to pinpoint where exactly the fault is, and it should also allow you to detect microscopic metal dendrites that have punctured the separator... unless I'm totally missing the boat on this one, again.
That does not sound terribly fun - and quite messy.
Ignes Andros; More messy than washing off all of the graphite to try and visually see a hole underneath?
That paste is quite firmly on there, simply moving the probes around on it shouldn't be THAT messy...
MRLT You might punch holes with the probes.
Which is why I would take 2 metal plates and put them on both sides, now you can measure a bigger area and not risk puncturing it
Reviews+Tutorials Yeah that is a good idea. The only issue is that the larger the squares are, the less likely you will be able to localize the small pinhole.
Perhaps simply submerging it in a shallow amount of water, on top of a large piece of Aluminium foil, would be better. You could attach one probe to the foil (which touches one side of the seperator), and then simply move the other, small probe tip around without actually touching the coating at all. The water's resistance should be large enough (regular tap water should be fine), so that you could easily tell when you're right over the hole.
MRLT Or you could just move one plate after you found the short so the area where they are on top of each other is smaller.
And simply keep making the area smaller until you found the point
Truly a unique personality, really enjoying this video
Taken from a icr14500 3.7v 1600mAh datasheet with in arms length.
Aluminum Foil (Al) 5%
Copper Foil (Cu) 10%
Cobalt lithium dioxide (CoO2.Li) 40%
Graphite (C) 20%
Electrolyte 15%
Aluminium plastic film 5%
PCB 5%
Yes the data sheet used both Al spellings. lol
Just to give an idea what is in a similar cell.
Interesting. I've noted that down and looked it up too. Quite nice that the technology was developed by a German-born American in England. That covers every base. Even better that he is actually called John B Goodenough.
Mr Goodenough is a professor at UT Austin
Which covers the fourth country, Texas.
bigclivedotcom if you feel particularly happy, you may have lithium poisoning. Lol.
But actually, I bet you could eat all the powder and still be fine... The compounds listed have pretty high intake requirements to be toxic...
CLIVE - What I got from our secret German Wunderwaffe papers below concerning your cell:
1) The Kathode is Lithium-Kobalt-Oxid.
The Kathode is sitting on Aluminium. The Aluminium is merely the conductor/contact, NOT the Kathode.
2) The Anode is Carbon in the form of Graphit.
The Graphit is sitting on Copper. The Copper is merely the conductor/contact, NOT the Anode.
3) There should be wetness in form of electrolyte (lithium-salt + organic-solvent) between Anode and Cathode and you only have dry crumbs.
I suspect, that like in an old Kondensator or capacitor as you call it, the solvent of the electrolyte has dried up in your cell.
Try adding some Ethylencarbonate and Dimethylcarbonate in a mixture 1:1 and have a look if the cell works again.
But check first under a microscope, if the nanostructures in the graphite layer are still OK and if the SEI layer (Solid Elektrolyte Interphase) is intact.
This video was so cool! I was in the middle of taking apart a laptop battery pack that had gone bad and refused to take a charge and it turns out that my pack has the same bright green samsung ICR18650-22F cells in it that you show here. I wanted to take a cell apart to see how it was constructed inside but now I dont need to. I have a feeling my pack went bad due to the controller refusing to charge the cells due to the voltage falling below the minimum threshold the controller deemed "safe" to attempt a recharge on. The laptop had been sitting unused for over a year so the cells had discharged on their own due to internal resistance. If only I had plugged it in 6 months ago oh well lol
"Hammering the hard disk" sounds like Windows superfetch. It likes to run when you're right in the middle of something important.
"Let me take another whiff of that electrolyte... what was I taking about -- I forget." -- LOL But you still managed to make a really great video that explains way more than the average tear-down video.
I use these lithium cells every day. I am a Vaper, and use mechanical mods. This has been one of the most interesting videos I've seen in a long time! Thanks!
Bill Carini
vape naysh bro
Probably not the ones in the video because they are probably going to be of the low discharge variety
Aand I just googled them and they are only rated for 5.6A maximum discharge, so you could only use them for tanks that use less than 17w
Reviews+Tutorials I stick to VTC5A for my mechs. I actually have been running some LG 20650's in a mech and they are fantastic!
Darth Vaper?
Vapers are the Vegans of smoke. They need to tell everyone that they are one.
Clive, the video held my interest for 35 min. That's not bad for me. Cheers.
"Oh That smells great. Smell that cancerogenic goodness."
Carcinogenic not cancerogenic
youtube spell check didnt say it was correct
that's cos its american, limited vocabulary
PCB 5%
@@arvidsgills1157 UA-cam doesn't have spell check; that's either from your PC or phone. You're batting 0/2
Answering questions I've had for years. Thanks for all the great content
so uh, what's in an Egyptian gin and tonic, and how do I make one?
Take one bottle of generic vodka and add two drips (and I really mean just two drips) of essential juniper oil and one (once again just ONE drip in a 750ml bottle of vodka) of four thieves essential oil. It will convert the vodka into an aromatic gin. Four thieves oil contains clove, lemon, cinnamon, eucalyptus and rosemary oil.
Do not add too much oil or it rapidly becomes overpowering and unpleasant. Ethanol is a solvent, so when the bottle is shaken the oils will diffuse into it.
Sounds interesting. Ordered some oils, it will be fun trying it in a week or so when they arrive. Thanks!
bigclivedotcom Clive, I am a gin snob. No apologies offered for that.
I must try this.
Since you mentioned oils, the first thing I thought of was Diesel. Diesel gin and tonic anyone?
Da9eI You can buy it. It’s called Sibling gin. Sorry, gin snob comment there. But that stuff tastes like I’d imagine your suggestion would. Foul.
Your work is fantastic. I'm very impressed, Clive.
I would think you could place a diode in parallel with each cell and that way if there was reverse bias it would just get shunted. I am sure the manufacturer would know this but want you to have to replace them periodically.
Diodes leak current. That's undesirable in an energy storage cell.
I like the way you are soo relaxed with a drink and making an awesome video
21:30 I hear the Gin is starting to take effect....
We all love videos featuring "Uncontrolled Thermal Events" or even better, "Unscheluded Rapid Disassembly" of components. Cheers!
My girlfriend's laptop battery was killed by a dodgy charger and I thought I could open it and charge it above the cut off voltage if they were low, or replace the defective cell but nope. The protection IC failed. The batteries were completely fine and so too were the fuse and diode/mosfets... Sods law.
That makes NO sense. There is no charging circuitry inside the laptop battery pack. It's all on the laptop motherboard. The only thing you will find inside the battery pack is overcharge/discharge protection, fuelguage and some other safety mechanisms (over temp shutoff, chemical fuse etc.)
I have experienced a number of lithium batteries fail from the protection IC taking a dump. The tiny epoxy encapsulation of the IC itself had deteriorated, turned into a substance like a putty. Lead wires to the die lose support and break. Replaced the IC and good to go. I guess when China runs put of regular encapsulation epoxy, they use dog shit, newspaper bits or whatever can be found to load into the encapsulation molding machine.
zapro_dk
I didn't say there was charging circuitry in the pack.. although there is balancing circuitry in most if not all packs.
Most protection ICs will separate the battery pack if it detects any faults (over temp, under voltage, overvoltage etc) this is marked as a flag and some batteries allow a certain number of flags before it's deemed unusable.
I was hoping that one of the cells were low from the dodgy charger lead shorting out or some other easy fix. Hope this cleared some of your confusion up
Skruffles
maybe charger was outputting the wrong voltage??
Charge IC has some eeprom inside that it uses to record cell condition, and when it detects failed cells it writes the eeprom with a fail code and then stops responding. Can be reset with the right software and programmer. Others also have a fail safe blowable fuse on them that the charge controller blows open as a final safety to protect the cells from abuse, along with the regular mosfet charge and discharge control switches. they all will have a thermal one time fuse as final overheat protection, though there are plenty of examples of these being a little too late to prevent the battery catching fire as it vents the electrolyte and it contacts a source of ignition.
The sounds of someone shoving their fist in a glove, then popping it, will remind most men of their first date with their doctor.
hehe, nice 😊
I'm not an electrician but, if you placed a diode between the batteries, would that not stop the reverse charging that was mentioned?
A diode in reverse parallel could limit the reverse charge to 0.6V.
Clive, active bypass diodes could limit reverse bias to just millivolts - they are just mosfets with a charge pump to run the gate
This is why they are used on solar panels to prevent groups of shaded cells from becoming reversed biased and turning into heat sources that could damage the cells, cause hotspots or even cause a fire.
They could be used on lithium cells too for currents
It would also stop normal charging.
You sure about that?
Whether charging or discharging, the cell's anode always stays more positive than the cathode so the diode would never become reverse biased, unless the cell is completely depleted and/or overpowered by the other cells in series.
I understand "diode between the batteries" as putting diodes and batteries in series, which would allow current to only flow in one direction. Hence only either charging or discharging would be possible, depending on the oriente of the diodes you put in place.
you let me down cliive, i thought you were gonna say "...and let's open that..uh..." I was thinking "bottle," because you had just mentioned gin, but you didn't, you went with something straight laced and got back to business...oh well. i was hoping you were gonna take a load off yer back and toss back a few and run out the clock on the rest of your workday...you've definitely earned it. another good, show. i'm glad i found your channel this past week. i'll be watching, keep the good vids coming, thanks
Do you like your spudger?
I'm waiting to go to bed but I won't be able to sleep until Clive has put all those materials safely outside!
The smell is most probably propylene carbonate. It's not great for you, but it really isn't all that bad either (especially as far as solvents go).
The REAL issue is the lithium salts that are dissolved in that solvent. Soluble Lithium salts are themselves really not something you want to risk getting on your skin (it easily gets absorbed and really fucks up your brain). As for the anion paired with the lithium, there really is no way of knowing. Some of them really aren't that bad, while others readily decompose into such wonderful things as HF (Hydrofluoric Acid) and Phosphine Gas, upon exposure to air, water and/or heat.
All in all, the only thing I'd really be worried about is the small amount of lithium that gets sprayed all over the bench. One day in the future, you WILL touch the bench and afterward go to eat something without washing your hands first, thereby ingesting a few milligrams of Lithium.
Lithium is used as a medication for people with bipolar disorder.
MRLT yes and mercury helps children in vaccines too
Wrong, wrong. The cobalt ions are the bad guys here. The Li+ is quite tasty actually ua-cam.com/video/RJh9yTIBY48/v-deo.html
You realise you're saying this to a large Scottish man who drinks gin while making these videos, don't you? :)
Also, if we're freaking out about dangerous heavy metals, best start prying out those amalgam fillings before the mercury rots your brain ;-)
Or ethylene carbonate.
18650s pretty much behave as any sealed metal cylinder such as a tin of beans containing a liquid - if heated to extremes it may vent -- sometimes violently -- and as ethylene carbonate is flammable, it may or may not ignite depending if it comes into contact with a spark or red hot conductor.
The real concern with lithium cells is not the small amount of lithium they contain, but those that contain carcinogenic cobalt compounds such as most LiPo pouch cells and 18650s with an ICR prefix. These should be recycled and never thrown away - not least because cobalt is currently $80,000 per ton!
Not all 18650s contain cobalt. A browse through wikipedia on any of the many different compounds found in lithium cells will provide a lot of useful information.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_cobalt_oxide
I've been restoring a HP HDX 9000 from 2007. The battery that I had with it was not really holding much of a charge anymore, it'll keep it in sleep mode for a couple of days but the moment you put under a load it would die.
I wanted to take it apart and put fresh 18650 sales in it. I figured upgrading the stock ones to Samsung 3500 milliamp hour ones would not only be more affordable than buying a new battery, but also give it significantly more capacity.
Long story short, I literally destroyed that battery trying to get it open.
I tried using prying tools to pry open at the seam but it was not budging. Finally I mutilated the top of the battery where the plastic was the thinnest, and I was able to extract the batteries but when I was extracting it, I accidentally shorted the batteries with the BMS and made magic smoke and I'm like well so much for that idea.
And even then the batteries were tack welded on, there was no chance that I was even going to be able to extract them anyway. I think next time I'll probably buy a precision rotary tool, get it open at least, and then take it to a nearby repair place and maybe see if they have ways to unweld the old batteries and weld on the new ones.
Big Clive, I am a battery researcher, you have a lot of little things wrong here. Maybe you are simplifying, but I would be careful talking about chemistry like this.
Over discharge damages the copper foil on the cathode which can result in lowered potential, dendrite formation, and damage to the anode.
I can go through this with you if you like.
I (and I'm sure many others) would be very interested to hear. I always like hearing from a real researcher / professional. I have read a lot and it seems most people just recite the same things and clives reverse charge explanation sounds best to me so far. I've totally discharged some cells but whenever any are reverse charged (such as in a pack) the casualties are very high. Way higher than 0v discharges. I don't know chemistry though.....
Ammoniummetavanadate mind officially blown. Thanks
Ammoniummetavanadate yes u r right i learned from battery mooch spot on there buddy.
I love you.
volvo09 He isn't wrong about the plating aspect, although that rarely happens.
My main issue with his analysis is that is leaves out the electrolyte, cathode material ( it isn't graphite, it is generally a lithiated cobalt or manganese oxide structure) and SEI (solid electrolyte interface). Lithium ion batteries are not chemically stable, the electrolyte will attack the anode and cathode materials (generally carbonates mixed with lithium hexafluorophosphate) but are inhibited by the SEI. Too much heat and the electrolyte can further react creating those pretty explosions we see which also release things like HF gas. The electrical potential is part of it, but the chemical degradation is where the smoke and flames come from.
0:20 "... best of all, black rubber gloves; it's going to get scientific, 007" (Q to Bond) - alternatively the Bond-villain (followed by manic laughter, natch). Another great one BC - thank you.
That looks like the exact battery pack that died in my Samsung laptop, took me a good while to get the damn folks over there to replace it. But yeah that laptop was a POS
G'day, Clive! Yes! Very cool! It was quite interesting, seeing the insides of a lithium cell!! Thank you very much for the marvelous "teardown of faulty Samsung lithium 18650 cell!! (2200mAh) Well done!
Cheers! :-)🔋😊❤️
I just realized I'm watching a battery autopsy...
...I can't look away.
21:26 My grandfather once told me something along the lines of "you can't die if you don't take the risk." those are words to live by.
Ah black rubber gloves thats what ive been forgetting when attempting science
Love the explosion containment safety precaution Clive .
22:08 "the smell is actually really pleasant but people keep saying _OH don't breath it!_ "
A pleasant thing isn't necessarily safe for you. An analogy using taste... Lead (II) acetate was once a sweetener.
Hear, hear Wolfin. I managed a chemical plant that manufactured polyurethane adhesive in twin 4oz tube dispensers with a mix tip (like epoxy twin tubes). The main chemicals used for the urethane reactions were isocyanates, clear syrupy liquids that had only a faint smell of fruit (apple, pear, peach). To the uninitiated they appeared relatively benign. However, they are deceptive. Being able to detect their faint pleasant smell at all meant that one was being exposed to an unsafe concentration level. As with many other dangerous materials, initial, and even repetitive, exposure sometimes did not immediately manifest the harm that's been done. The isocyanates are also powerful sensitizers. This means that each exposure increases one's sensitivity to the next exposure, i.e. the level of exposure required for profound respiratory and other symptoms of toxicity to present is decreased. Direct exposure of the skin to the finished product or precursors would cause no apparent harm if the area was briefly flushed with water (which catalyzed the formation of the inert polymer). If left untreated, however, a lesion would develop as with sensitizers like poison ivy, oak, sumac...etc. The method of producing the product (compounding, packaging, testing, quality control and equipment maintenance) meant that all company personnel had the opportunity to come in contact with clear, mostly odorless, reactive material on any, and all, surfaces. Opening any door could contaminate oneself. This was especially problematic as regards the bathroom door-as you can well imagine. Over time, depending on the thickness of the deposit, moisture in the air polymerized the isocyanates rendering them inert. Unfortunately, although I provided half-mask respirators (HEPA /activated charcoal filters) & nitrile gloves, performed lung function & respirator fit tests and gave initial, as well as ongoing safety training on chemical hazards and protective equipment, almost every new employee had to experience at least one incidence of poison ivy-like rash. The rash doesn't spread, it can itch a little bit and disappears in a couple of days, but it spooked the heck out of people. The new hires had little understanding of the importance of my rash prevention warnings, no matter how simple and emphatic I made them. They all, of course, no matter how small the lesion, with no exception, insisted on seeing a doctor, thereby creating an insurance premium increasing incident reportable to Workman's Compensation as a work related injury requiring a doctor's care.
Thanks Clive, I find your videos so interesting. I'd do most of these deconstructions myself very happily, but this one... hmm, I was nervous enough watching it from here! Play safe my friend!
Alcohol and possibly exploding batteries, what could go wrong. :)
I have opened quite a few old laptop battery packs and its always a 3s pack made out of 18650s
Normal sized ones have 2 cells in parallel and bigger ones have 3 cells in parallel.
Its quite a good source for lower spec 18650s if you can get them cheap or for free.
I used to go to my local recycling center and ask politely and would usually be allowed to take a few
I would advise to leave the nickel tabs if you want to do the same but dont have a spot welder, that way you dont have to solder to the cells directly (which might damage them) but can instead solder to the tabs
"I've forgotten again..." Smell that carcinogenic goodness :-) Fire Department: "We could not save the house, but we did find that the fire started in the trap of the kitchen sink. We also think it was strange the the neighbors trash can burst in flames."
Your voice sounds like a teacher that I used to know when I was a small child. He used to behaved and talked in a very similar way to you, and now I know that a lot of this ascent is Scottish in origin. I have noticed a few differences in Scottish ascents, being that I have known of them and stayed in Scotland for about 1-2 months. Scotland is fascinating. That teacher also used to have a beard like you as well; there was something about that teacher that used to interest me, I don't why; but he used to play the piano at school very well in assembly time, and this was in primary school.... I think looking back at it now, he was kind of trying to have fun with the kids in his own unique way.
Don't listen to him. They cannot be discharged to zero without causing physical and chemical damage to the cell. Will it work after doing so? Maybe - if it's been done rarely, and never left at zero for long. (I wish I had bookmarked the video series where they tested 1000 identical cells. They were looking at them under an electron microscope to see the exact effects of deep discharges and multiple recharge cycles. They were also testing different electrolytes; the moral of the story: manufacturers know infinitely more than lab geeks.)
I love you, I can fix several things I own now. Best explanation of rechargeable batteries ever!
If I go camping on the isle of man can you recommend a place? I like to walk up hills. I'll buy you a beer if you like. ❤😋
There are various camping sites on the IOM and nothing but hills. I'm not sure the best site. Maybe in Laxey?
You said you like to walk up hills. How do you feel about walking down those hills? Or have you found a way to only walk up?
Forever Learning funny 😁I tried to go up Snowdon but failed due to the weather. I wonder if we can go in calmer times
bigclivedotcom thank you. It's my birthday in may, end of may, so I might have enough money to go camping. I'll look up the place you said. Cheers man.
@@johnt.inscrutable1545 You get the train up, have a pint and then walk down.
I had a lot to do with the early lithium polymer aluminium pillow style batteries for radio control. In this application everyone wanted the maximum discharge current donated in multiples of “C” being the capacity of the pack. Early packs from memory where rated at 5C and the last I remember up to 40C and I think much greater now. Balance charging was the order of the day so individual pin outs for each cell and a loom and balancers or balance chargers. And caution advised when running packs in parallel. The ducted fan boys had recharging trailers set up with multiple good 12 volt batteries chargers and serious “fanatics” see what I did there camping generators. They where getting to voltage levels with multiple series packs that required an electrician to approve and ducted fan thrusts in the 10 kg range similar to a medium sized turbine. I have successfully recovered packs where one cell has dropped under three volts by charging this cell individually on low current until over three volts then you can charge at 1C. Safe charging of all these cells was 1C with later cells taking 2 or 3C. Very interesting tech and made electric flight a reality for radio control. Wobbels the mad Aussie.
Compromise, Alumium. You're Welcome!
Very interesting, i have never taken a lithium battery apart before and now i have no need to. Just so completely different from the older carbon type batteries. I wish i had had professor Alice Roberts as my history teacher, i would definitely have taken an interest. However, my old physics teacher was one of only three teachers i got on well with at my old school.
*Bare lithium cells stored in a metal container*
Hmm...
Precariously placed in the center, nothing could go wrong
Xgames in the making
20:58 The package has a spelling error, "more light though", it is missing an "r"
Yay from Gin & Tonic and black gloves ;)
FYI- these are EXCELLENT tare down vids. You may want to also tare down some known perfect cells of the same brand, at the same time? Really entertaining man, thanks and +REP
yes the pie plate is coming out yesss hahaha
dude I'm new and you rock. you seem like a decent person
im gonna make a guess whats inside, 1000 AA batteries and an iphone and 3 unicorns
Jusb1066 the iphone may be the reason why it doesn't hold a charge !
You have to be quick to get the unicorn with a hammer.
Can you use good salvaged batteries from DIY power tools in other things ? Like power banks?
Yes you can.
Egyptian Gin, just add camel dung or sand?
I think it's some sort of pyramid scheme to rip off the clueless.
@green Silver Why not both?
Then you'd need some tonic.
Before it was washed off, the graphite material that against the copper did appear to have a slightly coppery sheen or color appearance compared to the aluminum side. which looked slightly darker. Perhaps it might be worth taking apart an undamaged cell to see if a similar coppery sheen is present there too?