Uncovering 5 Amazing Facts About the P-38 Lightning
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- Опубліковано 20 гру 2022
- Lockheed P-38 Lightning is one of the most recognizable fighter planes of WWII. Despite famous episodes in which it participated, such as the shootdown of Admiral Yamamoto, this aircraft might be a bit underrated compared to some other fighters. For example, did you know which airplane first escorted Allied heavy bombers all the way to Germany? Which top American aces flew the P-38? Which famous writer of the 20th century was a P-38 pilot? In what unusual location did the first confirmed kill for the P-38 take place and who scored the first American kill against the Luftwaffe? Again, in a rather unusual place.
Main sources:
- John Stanaway - P-38 Lightning Aces 1942-43
amzn.to/3WxoX6J
- John Stanaway - P-38 Lightning Aces of the ETO/MTO
amzn.to/3W7fp2d
- Roger Freeman - American Eagles, Volume 2: P-38 Lightning Units of The Eighth and Ninth Air Forces
amzn.to/3HQxZYe
- Martin Caiden - Fork-Tailed Devil
amzn.to/3v2FhAu
- Warren M. Bodie - The Lockheed P-38 Lightning
amzn.to/3Vat3AD
- Der Gabelschwanz Teufel - Assessing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning
www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analy...
- Mysteries of Flight: The Disappearance of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
www.planeandpilotmag.com/arti...
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Another fact to remember is the P-38 was the aircraft who shoot down the Admiral Yamamoto plane.
True
Great work! Love the P-38.
I agree, thanks!
Visuals are superb.
Thanks! It took longer than usual to produce this one :)
@@showtime112 I believe you. Good work. 💐
Charles Lindburgh, the American aviator who flew across the Atlantic in the "Spirit of Saint Louis", unofficially participated in P-38 combat missions in the Pacific War. He also made recommendations that increased the combat radius of the P-38.
Yes, he was a consultant on long-range flying techniques.
Lindbergh even managed to score a kill during these combat missions…
Great historical facts.
Thanks, I appreciate it!
History of the Fightin' Fifty- Fifth Wing is astounding!
Great video! shame DCS does not have the 38 module!
Thanks! There might be one someday😁
Wow ST112, great historical content and great videos to go along with each event. I learn so much watching this channel. Very well done.
Thanks, it's good to hear such things!
another fun fact: some P-38s were sent to the Republic of China Air Force where the type saw action in WW2 and the Chinese Civil War where they flew sorties against communist forces and some might've seen some clashes against the Lavochkin La-11 fighters flown by the newly formed People's Liberation Army Air Force during the last phases of the civil war. One of these P-38s (a reconnaissance variant) would end up being the first aerial kill for the new Russian Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-15s that were flown by a Soviet squadron that were sent as aid by Stalin to defend the coast of Shanghai from bombing raids by the ROCAF in April of 1950.
Those are pretty good topics for future videos! Thanks for contributing!
One of the most capable and most multipurpose aircraft of WWII. The biggest and most important (and usually overlooked) difference between the overlooked P-38 Lightning and the over-hyped P-51Mustang is that the Lightning fought that time when US pilots were rookies, tactics were just under development and most importantly German pilots were combat hardened veterans. On the other hand Mustang fought when US pilots became experienced, the tactics were well developed and Germans left with under-trained and rookie pilots, most of their 'expertes' were lost.
And if someone thinks that P-51 was such a perfect aircraft just take a look at jamming guns of B and C models and terrible flight characteristics with loaded fuselage tank (all models including the D). With revised turbosuperchargers and engines, dive brakes and hydraulic servos for the ailerons (from J-25 and up to the L series) the Lightning become a fearsome dogfighter.
Thanks for contributing more info. Mustangs definitely fought under more favorable conditions than Lightnings.
The biggest problem that hamstrung the P-38 was the problem of compressibility stalls. This was a major factor for the first couple of years when it was first supposed to be in combat. At one point, it was designated RP-38, the R designation meaning restricted, due to the inability of Lockheed to figure out the cause, and once they did, they had to create kits for Field Retrofitting of the plane with compressibility dive brakes. The retro kits were a higher priority than the factory mods because of the planes in the field needing to be able to perform their function. The factory refits were done quickly and became standard equipment. Read Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 by Martin Caidin. He explains this situation very well.
The P-38 was very expensive to build and maintain. It had problems at high altitude and its heating system was not adequate for high altitude winter flight in -60C conditions. The P-51 was chosen because of range, ability and cost. Cheaper than the P-38 and P-47.
“Don’t put me in a P-38”
“The props, they counter-rotate!”
“She’ll cough and she’ll wheeze, and she’ll head for the trees!”
“Don’t put me in a P-38!”
Old P-38 driver song, I was told, by a friend of my father. I guess when the boys got home from a mission in England the pubs would lube the boys up and songs like these were sung. What a time.
I have to say that I didn't know about this song. Would have made a good soundtrack for the video :)
@@showtime112 There are several more stanzas to the song, I just don’t remember them.
@@showtime112 Don't give me a P-38,
Don't give me a P-38,
The props they counter-rotate
You'll loop, roll, and spin, but then auger right in,
Don't give me a P-38!
There are verses/stanzas for that song/poem for the P-51, the P-39, the P-40, and the P-47.
The german called the P-38 " the devil with two tails" because it was very efficient on ground attack missions. For Antoine de Saint Exupery, we do not know the circumstances of his death, the 1/33 Belfort a reconaissance squadron now disapeared on Mirage F1 CR had on his tail a picture of "le petit prince" his famous novel which is the second book the most sold after the Bible on the world. Robin odds had shot down a BF-109 with his engine stopped, it's because he had forgotten to open the valve of a new tank of gasoline !!! But he fired and he touched the german plane, incredible !!!
Thanks for commenting and considering additional info, like you usually do!
Antoine de Saint Exupery wasn’t the best of pilots. His commander had asked to have him grounded by higher command rejected the request. He might have neglected to use his oxygen mask, as he wasn’t used to them and might have thought them as an annoyance. Most pre-war flying in civil aircraft was done below altitudes not requiring oxygen and he crashed prior due to that.
@@michaeltelson9798
Yes it's true, you can add that he was a little bit too old and he had no the physics for supporting the effects of a P-38.
Its healthy condition was more adapted with a bomber or a heavy bomber.
He didn't practise any sport, he smoked a lot and drink a little bit too much.
He obtained the permission of his superiors for only 5 flights of recognition missions.
They knew his problem.
Great, I love that five thing series!
Me too. Most viewers don't seem to be so certain 😁
Much better suited for the Pacific War the cold issues not a problem, but fantastic Firepower and ease of aiming with all guns firing on the Centerline if it's hitting your plane your going down 💥 !! Semper Fi
Yes, Pacific is where P-38 was truly at home.
Awesome video my friend! I like this format of video where you talk about airplanes achievements and facts. Nice
Thanks, I'm glad to hear it!
I wonder what Admiral Yamato's opinion of a P38 would be
We can only speculate but I think a samurai warrior in him would respect the opponent that bested him.
Amazing camera work on this one showtime, great work as usual.
Thanks! War Thunder does offer some good preset cameras.
Interesting and informative, as always, thanks 👍
I'm very glad to hear it, thank you!
I wonder what would be the performance of the Lightning if it was re-engined with the D-Mustang's. As always, great work on this video!
It was considered but not realized, probably for political reasons. It would have been better with Merlins, no doubt. Thanks for the comment!
This was covered recently by either "Rex's Hangar" or "Greg's aircraft & Automobiles", likely the latter. The Merlin conversion was performed but there was little performance improvement due to the pre-NACA nature of the P-38's aerodynamics. All those little scoops along the booms created significant drag. Engine choice didn't make a difference.
It would have reduced the range of the P-38.
IT will be worse. The exact answer why You got in this movie: ua-cam.com/video/oJPGFcXRZZI/v-deo.html
Its very good channel.
No installation of Merlin engines in a P-38, nor even an attempt, has ever been documented.
Johnson initiated a design study at Lockheed. The study found that the Merlin not only simply would never fit the P-38 airframe, but that performance would have been substantially reduced in every single category
A Merlin powered P-38 would have a reduced climb rate, reduced acceleration rate, reduced top speed, reduced high altitude performance, reduced critical altitude, reduced service ceiling, reduced range, and reduced maneuver ability.
The Allison V-1710 paired with General Electric turbochargers was superior in performance in every way.
I didn't know they escorted bombers to Germany.
Yes, that fact is often overlooked for some reason.
They were the first Allied fighters to provide long range escort, and the first Allied fighters to appear in numbers over Berlin.
YO MY MAN GOT A SPONSOR :D!!!!!
You gotta have some of those every now and then 😁
@ThyPeasantSlayer So nice to hear, thank you!
The later L model in the hands of an experienced pilot could out turn a P-51D by using engine controls. You slow down one engine, then speed up the other turning into the slower engine’s side. There is also the 4 leaf clover maneuver that the P-38’s used.
Too bad that the G models didn’t have good cockpit heating which turned off the pilots in Northern Europe.
Beautiful aircraft
It's one of my favorites!
The most important thing said was that it apposed the Luftwaffe when they were at their peak.. So not only in numbers of planes but in numbers of their best pilots. By the time The 51 were completely deployed the Germans had already been weakened. Russia was putting up big numbers along with improved pilots and tactics.
True, those two fighters were not fighting the same opponent.
@@showtime112 So you are saying the P51's faced poorer replacement pilots because the Luftwaffe's best had already been killed by P38's? Total, utter, ridiculous nonsense. Read a relevant book.
@@paulhicks6667 Who said they were killed by P-38s? But yes, Luftwaffe pilot quality was dropping and it was lower by the time P-51s took over.
@@paulhicks6667
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Luftwaffe pilot abilities had been dropping since 1943. For every "experten" still flying, a dozen or more had been killed, replaced with pilots who had fewer and fewer hours of training and instruction. The Luftwaffe was in overall decline, attrited by the P-47, the P-38, the Spitfire, and the Hurricane.
The P-51 did not even equal the P-51 in numbers deployed in the 8th AF until May/June of 1944.
To claim that the Luftwaffe had the same quality of pilots and planes in 1944 (the first P-51 unit went operational in December 1943) that it had in 1943 and prior is purely false, and ludicrously so.
Don't forget the interception of Yamamoto's transport near New Guinea 👍🙃
True. I didn't include that story because it is probably too well known.
Another well done video with facts that I did not know about !
Thanks for the feedback. You are clearly the target audience :)
About 20% of all P-38s made were used for photo recon (around 2,000) and were unarmed. Although the British had been doing it longer, the Americans shot far more photo recon in Europe. The photo recon P-38s were about 10 mph faster than the standard P-38.
Thanks for the comment and for contributing additional info!
Ako se ne varam, admiral Yamamoto je stradao od Lightninga. Također, Lockheed Martin F-35 nosi njegovo ime.
Točno. Ta epizoda nije bila na popisu jer je možda previše poznata. Više za posebnu epizodu 😁
The P-39, P-38 and P-47 were all originally designed as bomber interceptors, to knock down anything threatening the United State's airspace. The 47 and 38 were turned into long-range
escort fighters by improvisational ingenuity. The P-51 was designed as an improved P-40 by North American, also modified for escort further on after the RR Merlin was adapted.
Another great presentation by Showtime 112. Well done! ♠️🎩🎱🎯🇺🇲🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻💮🏵️🌸🌼🏴☠️🏹
I'm glad to hear from you each time!
General Dolfo Galland commented on the spot that P-38 had more or less the same shortcomings as Messerscmitt 110 and that it was no kind of match to Bf 109 with a pilot who knows his trade. P-38 was much more useful on the vast stretches of the pacific…
Galland was notorious for his dishonesty.
Luftwaffe pilot, and after the war, Luftwaffe commanding general, Johannes Steinhoff said that a well flown P-38 was a match for anything the Luftwaffe had, except the Me 262. Steinhoff is far more credible than Galland.
Great video what’s even more interesting about that first victory over the condor is the P 40s were actually P 40c tomahawks and I believe a P-39 was in the air at the same time and got hits on the German condor with its 37 mm
cannon
I could be wrong, but nevertheless, wonderful video -subscribed !
Thanks for the feedback! The sources I found didn't mention anything about a P-39.
Excelent video thaks
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
I find it kind of funny that the P-38s had issues with their engines and the F-35 Lightning IIs are having issues with their engines as well. The P-38 had a laundry list of issues and the F-35 has a laundry list of issues. Allison engines just sucked all around. The Mustang Bs underpowered and switched out for Merlin engines. Here is another example of a Showtime 112 history video with info that I didn't know.!! Thanks again Showtime. Love your videos.
Nice to hear you liked the video. I haven't thought of the engines parallel until you mentioned it 😁
@@showtime112 Well I didn't think about it till this video brother. But I guess like father like son? the new engines that the F-35 is getting are supposed to give the Lightning II better range and speed and power. Both planes had oxygen and cockpit issues. History repeats itself. But yeah, I cannot wait for those variable mode General Electric engines to be installed. Price of Maintenace is going down...so will the price of the plane. I am hoping that the F-35 will be the dominant plane that it's supposed to be when all is said and done.
The A-36 Apache, and P-51A weren't underpowered, they were very fast, even little faster than P-51B but at low altitudes. Allison engines had a single stage supercharger, so max power of engine was limited to low alt. Merlins engines had a double stage intercooled supercharger, and were much better to keep max power at medium and high alt.
The P-38 only had engine problems in units with the 8th AF. Nowhere else in Europe were there units experiencing substantial engine problems with the P-38.
Great work!
Hvala!
My uncle, Ssgt. Everret Eugene Permar, was the radio operator on a B-24, "BATTLEAXE", 66th Squadron, 44th Bomb Group, on the November 13, 1943 raid on Bremen, Germany. BATTLEAXE was shot down by fighters and flak, and crashed in the Zuider Zee as the bomber stream exited the target area over Holland. All crewmembers were KIA. My uncles remains were never found.
Thank you for sharing!
A few things about the P-38
1) It was a multi engine aircraft and hence more complicated to fly than a single engine aircraft.
2) It was a pre-war design and didn't have the more ergonomic controls the P-51 had. In going from Cruising Speed to Combat - there were a specific set of actions that were required that HAD to be performed in a specific order. With the P-51 that actions on the controls had to some extent been combined but also simplified.
3) Because it had counter Rotating Props - you had less problems with torque.
4) That also let you turn tighter if you accelerated the outboard engine in a turn.
5) In addition to that - you could "blit" the outboard engine (rapidly increasing the throttle and then quickly backing off) - and the torque from that engine would roll the plane. Rolling with the ailerons alone - the P-38 was a slow roller - but - by blitting the outboard engine - it could roll better than most other aircraft. The problem was - this was something done by veteran pilots.
6) The P-38 with that massive elevator - could loop like a son of a bitch - so it did split S's and Immelmann's really well.
7) Because all the guns were in the pod - firing straight ahead - you could aim your fire. Planes with guns in the wings - had to have their fire harmonized at a specific range - with before and after that being Spray and Pray.
8) The P-38 with two engines cost more than a Mustang.
Thanks for providing additional info!
The P-38 *could* have been equipped with much more ergonomic controls. Lockheed developed the "unified power control" system in 1943. Also developed in 1943 were hydraulic boosted ailerons (actually late 1942) and electric dive recovery flaps.
Unfortunately, the P-38 was single sourced, and due to the extreme demand, Lockheed was forbidden to stop production to introduce improvements.
This led to the dive flaps and ailerons being kept out of production until 1944, and the unified power control never being produced.
The hydraulic boosted ailerons made the P-38 the fastest rolling aircraft above 325 MPH in the war, faster than even the FW 190 and the P-47.
Also kept out of production, from June/July 1943, was the P-38K, which had 1850HP Allison engines coupled to 13'-6" three blade hydrostatic Hamilton Standard high activity paddle props. As late as May/June 1944, the Material Command division of the USAAC/USAAF requested that Lockheed be allowed to produce the P-38K, as it was a superior aircraft with the best roll rate, climb rate, and acceleration rate of anything in the U.S. inventory.
🤯🤯mind blowing
Overcooking it a bit 😁😁😁
It is a myth created after the war that the Germans called the P-38 a Fork tailed devil..
Actually, it may or may not be. There's some credible evidence that a German pilot shot down in the Mediterranean theater actually referred to the P-38 as der Gabelschwanz Tuefel.
I've always felt this plane never got the attention it deserved
I agree, thanks for the comment!
The most memorable about this airplane to me only one "Yamamoto".
Yeah, that's what most people will think of first when it comes to P-38.
I asked a man how flew doth in WW2. First the P-38J & L the n the P-51D. Which one he like the best? He said “ THE Lightning got me home three times and the Mustang didn’t. “ so guess that answer my question
Thanks for sharing that!
❤️
Thank you for your support!
A unique and beatiful yet deadly plane....
Yes, there's something about it (despite its flaws)
The P38 was used incorrectly when it arrived in Europe. It was not designed to be a turn and burn low level fighter. As a high altitude escort it was more (and I do mean more) than a match for whatever low altitude fighter the Germans had to offer.
The top WW2 army air corps aces all flying P38
True, that is one of the major arguments for the 'Pro P-38 Team'.
82ND AIRBORNE
The Forked Wing Devil!! YEEEEEHAW!!
The one and only 😁
The Lightning is always compared to "fighters" as though dogfighting was its design purpose. It was not. The Lightning was designed as an "interceptor" and, far more specifically, as a "BOMBER interceptor."
The "strategic bomber" concept governed the design of the American 4 engine bombers and the sole American 6 engine bomber was also followed by Britain. Crediting our enemies with our own wisdom created the need for an extremely fast platform to intercept the bomber streams advocated by Arnold and Harris but, perhaps, implemented by our enemies. This aircraft had to operate at and above the altitudes specified for our bombers with sufficiently powerful weapons to bring down some theoretical enemy's B-17, B-24 or B-29 equivalents and be fast enough to do so before the bombs were dropped and it had to have the range for extended visual patrols in the days before radar and airborne radar.
Dogfighting and the maneuverability required for it were not priorities in a "bomber interceptor."
It is a tribute to Locheed's Kelly Johnson and the rest of the staff at the Skunkworks that the Lightning, NEVER employed in its true design mission, performed adequately in ALL the missions into which it was pressed: fighter, fighter-bomber, photo recon, bomber ESCORT (truly, a reversal of roles), night fighter, bomber pathfinder and any I missed... It was a truly impressive aircraft.
Thank you for this elaborate comment!
The term "interceptor" was applied to the RFP for the program by Lt Ben Kelsey because at the time the Army had decreed that no money would be spent on development of multi-engine fighters. He called it an interceptor to get around this restriction and allow funding the program. The reason to seek a twin engine fighter was that no single engine available could propel 1000 pounds of armament to the speed and altitude desired. You can read Ben Kelsey's book or Warren Bodie's.
The P-39 was intended to carry a bomber-busting 37 mm gun to altitude, but it could still be called a fighter because it had a single engine. It is ironic that the term interceptor was used as a bureaucratic maneuver, but it has since been twisted into a supposed intent that the aircraft was not intended to maneuver as a fighter.
The P38 terrorized German armor in North Africa and was the first Aircraft to use napalm in North africa.
I'll have to cover some of that, thank you for the comment!
It would be awesome if some company would produce a modern modified version of the P38 lighting with 2 pratt and whitney PT-6 turbo prop engines.
I watched an interview with Robin Olds were they asked him what he thought of the P38. He replied "I became an ace despite the P38, not because of it"
That's not very flattering for the P-38 :)
What Robin Olds actually said, in context, was that the P-38 was too difficult to master for the *average* pilot.
Olds believed that few pilots were able to master it, and many were not trained or qualified to fly it.
It was a complex and difficult aircraft to master.
About St exupery P38 F5 crash. This plane Was allegedly shot down by horst Rippert from JagdGruppe 200 With Bf 109G 6. Remains weré found early 2000's by scubadivers in Calanques of Cassis (deep narrow creek). My father told me When Was teen , have seen weird planes With 2 tails" flying low and fast above railway and roads between Narbonne and Nîmes ( south of France close to Méditerranée sea )
In fact searching opportunity targets : ammunition train or german trucks panzer convoys. It Was in beginning of summer 1944. Hè Was also witness in Villeneuve les Beziers of the straffing of german train by Grumman Hellcat mk1 from Fleet air Arm from HMS Emperor.
Oné of the Hellcat pulled up too late after straffing and hit top of à hangar👎👎Lt Rogers from sq800 Was killed
Thank you or sharing these stories!
100 Octane fuel was available in Britain during 1943 and 1944 - was it in short supply to cause P38 fuel issues over Europe?
I didn't go more deeply into that aspect so I can't tell for sure. One source says that 'the majority of fuel used in Britain was improperly blended, the anti-knock lead compounds coming out of solution (separating) in the Allison's induction system at extreme low temperatures'
@@showtime112 Thanks - from what little I know the higher octane was American imported.
There are different way to increase octane, and some of them are more desirable than others. The fuel blended in the UK may have used a different mix of compounds than that blended in the U.S.
The P-38 required 130 octane fuel. The fuel provided by the British rarely reached the required 130 octane, and worse still, the tetraethyl lead that was blended failed to stay suspended in the fuel, it fouled spark plugs, and generally played havoc with the P-38 induction system.
General Jimmy Doolittle called upon his friends at Shell to resolve the poor quality fuel issues.
You didn't mention the killing of Yammamoto.
This was more of a lesser known facts video. Everybody knows about Yamamoto.
Scored a kill in glide mode!
By Robin Olds, exactly.
👍
🙂
The fact that it was flown by the 2 highest scoring aces of the war says it All. Highly recommend "Aces High" by Bill Yenne if you would like to know more about Bong and McGuire.
Thank you for the comment!
The Air Force side of Ft. Dix was named after Major Thomas McGuire.
Made in War Thunder lets go
There will be more :)
Ah-lu-tion Islands.
If they didn't want e to be pronounced, they shouldn't have put it there 😁
It is not true that the P47 couldn't reach Germany. They could easily, with droptanks.
The US Army Air Corps bomber command was very against the use of droptanks, and let the bombers go solo. After the hell of the Schweinfurt Raid, Bomber command realized their mistake and agreed fighters were needed.
At that moment in time, the P-51 with the merlin engine was just supplied and WITH droptanks it could go to Berlin and back.
Bomber command made clever use of the introduction of the P51C and D, to show that 'now with the P51' our bombers are safe. This story was the perfect cover for the mega failure and safed some peoples careers.
The P51 was indeed excellent and much cheaper than the P38, but not much better than the P47 with ALSO droptanks.
UA-cam channel 'Greg's airplanes and automobiles' has a video about this with official source documentation.
Greg's video misinterprets this issue by oversimplifying a complicated chain of events. The bombers had been designed to go unescorted, but that was before the war. Once in the war the Army realized that doctrine had been overcome by modern fighter development. They were not against putting drop tanks on fighters, but it took time to catch up with reality and implement them.
@@gort8203
Wrong. Greg is correct. The "bomber mafia" in command of the 8th AF knew in 1942 that unescorted bombing was not sustainable. They sent the P-38's to the Mediterranean in 1942, and refused to consider drop tanks installation on the P-47.
That is *EXACTLY* why the command staff of the 8tb AF was relieved during the winter of 43/44 and replaced. That die was cast on "Black Thursday" in October 1943.
The deployment of ONE P-38 group, the 55th, forced into operational status in less than 30 days after arriving, proved that escorts were necessary, and in fact, the only way to sustain the campaign.
@@AlanRoehrich9651
Wrong. All your factoids are twisted to support of this “bomber mafia” conspiracy narrative. It was not a conspiracy, it was friction and inefficiency in the chaos of war, and perhaps inadequate leadership, but not a conspiracy.
At the beginning of 1942 Hap Arnold directed the air staff to get drop tanks on fighters as soon as possible.
The 8th AF didn’t “send” the P-38s to Africa in 1942, they were redeployed by HQ AF to support Operation Torch, which set 8th AF plans back just as they were trying to get up and running.
The 8th AF didn’t refuse to consider drop tanks, they were waiting for the Air Technical Service Command at Wright Field to develop them, and the delay in conjunction with the pressure from Arnold through Spaatz and Eaker caused 8th AF to explore acquiring drop tanks locally in Britian.
Yes, heads rolled. When Hap Arnold became aware that career fighter General Frank Hunter Commanding 8th fighter command was not putting enough effort into carrying out the order to increase the range of bomber escorts he had him fired, even though Arnold had given him the command because he was a close friend. Eaker was perhaps insufficiently aggressive, and was also moved out, but I have read nothing to indicate that he “refused to consider drop tanks” in face of Arnold’s order to use them.
The very first 8th AF raids over France and the low countries were escorted by fighters. Hardly the move of commanders who wanted to prove that bombers didn’t need escort.
When the metal belly tanks for the P-47 became available in mid-1943 they began using them. The single drop tank could not allow the P-47 to escort bombers all the way to deep targets, but they did escort outbound and inbound bombers in relays to the limits of their useful combat radius.
Yes, the original daylight precision bombardment doctrine assumed bombers would have to hit their targets without close escort. But even then, there was consideration for fighter support of bombers in the form of fighter sweeps intend to reduce enemy defense capabilities. It had to be this way because at the time nobody believed an effective fighter could have the range to escort long range bombers to deep targets. It was expected that the bombers would take losses, but it turned out those losses were heavier than expected because Luftwaffe air defense strategy adapted and became more effective than prewar assumptions anticipated. Once an unsupportable loss rate made it clear that deep escort was required, there was no conspiracy to adhere to a doctrine that wasn’t working. Arnold and his subordinate commanders wanted the bombing campaign to succeed and demonstrate that strategic bombardment contributed to victory. They were not complete idiots who thought this would be demonstrated in the face of unsustainable losses.
@gort8203
@AlanRoehrich9651
Wrong. All your factoids are twisted to support of this “bomber mafia” conspiracy narrative. It was not a conspiracy, it was friction and inefficiency in the chaos of war, and perhaps inadequate leadership, but not a conspiracy.
At the beginning of 1942 Hap Arnold directed the air staff to get drop tanks on fighters as soon as possible.
The 8th AF didn’t “send” the P-38s to Africa in 1942, they were redeployed by HQ AF to support Operation Torch, which set 8th AF plans back just as they were trying to get up and running.
The 8th AF didn’t refuse to consider drop tanks, they were waiting for the Air Technical Service Command at Wright Field to develop them, and the delay in conjunction with the pressure from Arnold through Spaatz and Eaker caused 8th AF to explore acquiring drop tanks locally in Britian.
Yes, heads rolled. When Hap Arnold became aware that career fighter General Frank Hunter Commanding 8th fighter command was not putting enough effort into carrying out the order to increase the range of bomber escorts he had him fired, even though Arnold had given him the command because he was a close friend. Eaker was perhaps insufficiently aggressive, and was also moved out, but I have read nothing to indicate that he “refused to consider drop tanks” in face of Arnold’s order to use them.
The very first 8th AF raids over France and the low countries were escorted by fighters. Hardly the move of commanders who wanted to prove that bombers didn’t need escort.
When the metal belly tanks for the P-47 became available in mid-1943 they began using them. The single drop tank could not allow the P-47 to escort bombers all the way to deep targets, but they did escort outbound and inbound bombers in relays to the limits of their useful combat radius.
Yes, the original daylight precision bombardment doctrine assumed bombers would have to hit their targets without close escort. But even then, there was consideration for fighter support of bombers in the form of fighter sweeps intend to reduce enemy defense capabilities. It had to be this way because at the time nobody believed an effective fighter could have the range to escort long range bombers to deep targets. It was expected that the bombers would take losses, but it turned out those losses were heavier than expected because Luftwaffe air defense strategy adapted and became more effective than prewar assumptions anticipated. Once an unsupportable loss rate made it clear that deep escort was required, there was no conspiracy to adhere to a doctrine that wasn’t working. Arnold and his subordinate commanders wanted the bombing campaign to succeed and demonstrate that strategic bombardment contributed to victory. They were not complete idiots who thought this would be demonstrated in the face of unsustainable losses.
@@AlanRoehrich9651
No, Gort is correct. The fact that I only see two replies above when UA-cam says there are four makes me suspect his response to you is being ghosted. That's too bad because I'd like to see that response. You are misinterpreting facts to support your conspiracy theory.
this remarkable airplane had the same short back as the P47, too expensive, too costly for an hour of use!!!
Thanks for the comment!
the british refused to fly this type.....it also had trouble pulling out of power dives....... some german pilots considered it easy to out maneuver at lower altitudes
Yes, it had compressibility issues (among other things). Personally, I really like 'imperfect' weapon systems and how they perform in combat.
@@showtime112 That's because you never had to fly one.
The British ordered their P-38's without turbochargers, and with two left hand engines and two left hand props. They were called "castrated P-38's".
For every claim of disrespect by the Luftwaffe pilots, there are Luftwaffe expert pilots such as Johannes Steinhoff who said that a well flown P-38 was at least as dangerous as any Allied aircraft.
@@paulhicks6667
You never flew any of the aircraft discussed, either.
Stealing titles is not cool.
You didn't invent that. Search YT for 'five things you didn't know about' and you'll find videos from seven years ago. In fact, on another video of mine with a similar title, a viewer criticized me for using a title that was trendy in 2018 or so 😁😁😁
@Showtime112 yeah, its just fairly clear you did try to use my ideas from my series, even down to the thumbnail. It's just not really cool man. Its just not fun for me to see people take videos that I was about to do.
@@TJ3 Again, you didn't invent that kind of thumbnails either. Everyone is doing it. Literally. Personally, I hate those arrows but I guess that's the thing now. As for the topic, don't worry. You can still make the P-38 video and make a few hundred thousand views on it because nobody saw this one 🤣
@Showtime112 Yes. I know. Of course I didn't. But it was my series, and whether or not it seems like it, it took my a long time to come up eith the perfect title and series. And I've just seen multiple channels now take my titles and thumbnails, and General concept, and just do planes I haven't gotten to yet. (Like your 262 and Stuka). And without fail, they are always some of the best videos on their channels, hurting the potential of my series. It's just frustrating. Obviously there's nothing I can do about it, but if you were in my shoes you'd feel frustrated as well.
@@TJ3 You should still do the P-38. My video was a total flop so it shouldn't affect it much. I've changed the title to 'Five Interesting Facts about P-38' (which was the initial title when I released it). Do a better video, choose some different facts. You seem to be incapable of getting less than a hundred thousand views whatever you do 😁 In fact, I would be extremely curious to see how your version would be received.
I’ll take the mosquito over to P 38 any day?.
That reminds me I should definitely do a Mosquito video.
With the amount of media attention it gets even before the advent of Internet, the P-38 is most definitely overrated and not underrated
Thank you for your opinion.
Last year a group of British historians and fighter pilots voted the P38 the best allied fighter of WWll, P38s unarmed and flying low taking photos had a high loss rate yet the loss rate was close to the slower P51 that only fought the last year and a half as a great fighter. No other Allied plane was called on to do what the P-38 did.
@@miketrusky476 Thank you for this insight, it's very interesting.
pv7133, that is utterly false. By far the most overrated fighter of World War II is the P-51 Mustang.
The Mustang wasn't even in service until 12/43, and didn't even equal the P-38 in numbers deployed until May/June 1944. The P-38 and P-47, along with the P-40, had been fighting the Luftwaffe for more than 18 months before the first P-51 unit became operational in December 1943.
Luftwaffe Ace Adolph Galland was not impressed by the P-38’s
He might have had good reasons, especially with the early versions. But P-38 was nevertheless an extremely important aircraft even in the European/African theaters.
Galland was notorious for his disregard for the truth.
Read Johannes Steinhoff, who commanded the Luftwaffe after the war. His account of facing the P-38 is far more factual.
The most remarkable thing about the P38 is it had no rear gunner, the Germans and Japanese didn't make that mistake. This is why so many P38's were lost.
Their mistake was getting crushed by the allies
If it had been given a rear gunner it would have been slower. Those single popgun positions in the Bf110, Ju87 and Japanese dive bombers were a poor defence. The poor old rear gunner was little more than a target dummy for single engine fighters to vaporise with their multiple 20mm cannon and .50 machine guns.
Fine art BS , look at Lithium!!!
If you have some kind of an investment fund or something, contact me for a possible sponsorship 😁
What you say about St-Exupéry being shot down by some German fighter is 100 % pure bullshit. It for sure NEVER happened. This pilot gave details that are incorrect in every way. It's just a fantasy from his and you should not give any credit to these cobblers.The word is, nobody ever found the remains of his F-5. The little piece of jewellery you told about didn't count either since he gave several ones to his collegues and friends. The only one of his unit who suffer such a fate was Agnelli, and it was before the 31st of July. That day, there wasn't any German activity and the only ones who testified having seen a F-5 flying were Flak servants, they didn't shoot since this aircraft (St-Exupéry's) was by far out of range so they just saw him going with their goggles. Nobody heard about him after that. It's likely he fainted at the controls since he was already 44 and smoked a lot ; he also reportedly drunk a lot the night before. Chances are he crashed at a very high speed (possibly due to some somatographic illusion because he was flying very low above the sea) so nothing was left of his aircraft.
You are very confident for someone who hasn't been there. But you could be right. Although it's usually more the attitude, less the knowledge.
@@showtime112 I know where your hypothesis comes from : a book written by the former Luftwaffe pilot Heichele. But you have to be understand it was a _novel_ and not some official report. So he imagined this interception which supposedly occurred on a square on the map that never existed on German maps of the Mediterranean. Heichele himself never pretended this story was true, especially since he was not flying that day. One thing is sure : once, of course before the 31st of July Saint-Exupéry spotted a German fighter the radar operators of his base also noticed. His commentary ? « He was doing his job, I do mine. »
Showtime recommend stay away from masterworks, check reviews of company in thrust pilot and others, UA-cam reviews
Thanks for the warning. But there's no need to worry, with the exception of books on Amazon, no viewer has ever bought anything that I've promoted 😁
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