I asked Jeff if he would ever come back just the other day. He said that he doesn't see it happening anytime in the foreseeable future. I didn't want to press him on it any further but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. I think he's just kind of over it and moved on.
@T S No idea. He's a successful game designer so maybe he just wants to focus on his work in that field. That's just speculation, but as polarizing as atheist activism can be, I'm sure his career is better off without it.
~ The music at the beginning is a pleasant reminder of the song, Hello It's Me by the Nazz, 1968-69. One more thing that is cool and interesting about this video in 2019. Thank you, Russell and Jeff. Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
I didn't get the feeling that Jonathan was really even making an argument for the belief in a god. He seems to recognize that he only has an emotional, irrational hope of avoiding death. I think he just figured that if he explained his reasoning to others, they may agree that his hopes are justified, when he himself knows that they really aren't. He may call himself a theist, but I honestly don't see how he is. Or if he is, that he will be much longer.
@ 41:00 regarding the mention of "obedience"....it's interesting to point out that "obedience" is the core doctrine of every totalitarian dictatorship one earth, past or present...North Korea being the current shining example. I would never admit to being obedient to any being, human or not!
Throughout the episode, Russell keeps getting disappointed that he can't interject while the caller is talking, but in a different episode Matt mentioned that the caller can't hear the mikes when the caller is talking.
"If there's a drought and you hope it rains, then it's logical to believe that it rained" No. This is the point where Johnathan dissolves into utter nonsense and starts saying things that are blatantly false. He's talking about wishful thinking as if that makes anything real. Sorry, bub, that's completely wrong.
as for the first caller, he reminded me of me just before my deconversion. one of the major hurtles in losing my belief was getting over faith in faith itself. the caller seems stuck on this point. he feels faith is still a virtue and he does this by equating it with hope. always hope for the best right? well, believers just have a natural hope that their faith isn't misplaced, therefore its natural for them to have faith, and that bases in hope means it cant be that bad... right?... right?.
@maixck No,you are wrong. This is real example: My cat "Teazle" has been diagnosed with osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and i really hope she will be OK because she has been a wonderful little companion and is to young to have such a terrible disease, but i have been told she will not be OK by my vet, probably only has 1-2 years to live. I hope my vet is wrong. But it is illogical to believe she will live for another 10 years. i just hope she does.
Google is awesome, I googled "eutocro dilemma" and it said "did you mean: Euthyphro Dilimma". Oh, how I love you Google! You help me be a more educated atheist! :-D (yes all of this was before Russell spelled it out lol)
@DarkDDexter I think you misunderstand - I am talking BIG SCALE here. The universe (as far as we can tell) IS a closed system. These immortal cells you speak of will eventually succumb to the concept of entropy, as indeed the entire planet Earth will.
@Lleanlleawrg I don't think there has been any new episodes for 2 weeks but i just listen to the podcast so i always get to listen to the show even if it isn't uploaded to youtube
@Uberlaser The second law of thermodynamics does not say that. Furthermore, it applies to closed physical systems. Eternal life is not only possible, its happening, in practice, right now. Immortal cell lines are used in research all the time, and one has been around for sixty-years.
@InfectedInHD The problem isn't with any of what he said about it being unprovable, it was that he was saying that because it's unprovable, it's logical to believe in whatever you would like to exist, which isn't logical at all. You can hope for whatever you want, but there's still no good reason to assign characteristics to something you don't know anything about, regardless of what you hope.
@TheAtheistExperience By all means I'm not whining or anything. I was simply responding to the statement that you uploaded weekly, which while this is generally speaking true, isn't neccesarily always the case. I'm very pleased that you wish to maintain this fan channel by uploading full episodes, and I think I speak for everyone when I say that. So don't take it as negative criticism. : >
I get a headache whenever someone mentions Plantinga. His whole modal logic spiel boils down to "I can make shit up and hope really, really hard it's true, and thus it's probably true." Modal logic is pretty useless as a whole IMO, and even if it has a use, it's not for proving supernatural shit.
@hellomoto170 Well all he was saying was that he hopes god exists, and believes. They kept asking "how do you know" and he kept saying "i don't" so it was all just a misunderstanding basically. They were trying too hard to argue with him because he said he's a theist.
@Ultra4 And that was my point. We don't have a world that is that educated, and even if we did, there would still be those who are educated enough to realize that they can gain power.
First caller's logic: "it can't be proven wrong, therefore it's logical to believe it". Doesn't he realise this would apply to an infinite number of things, most of which would be contradictory and/or nonsensical?
there are 2 possibilities regarding infinity. 1. infinite being. 2. infinite non-being. infinity cannot be broken. therefore, the only feasible claim regarding god, existence, and infinity is that god must BE everything that exists (energy in different forms). only this way can it confirm its omnipresence. but omniscience cannot be confirmed, because WE believe and do not know. you can't know and believe, believing is born from not knowing. thus, omnipotence cannot be confirmed either.
As Mark Twain put it: "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." To be honest, if you actually contemplate living forever, it is a fairly frightening idea. How soon do you get bored to the point of suicide? 10,000 yrs? 100,000 yrs? 1,000,000,000 yrs? And, since you are eternal, that billion years is just the start. Death may be the most merciful fate we can hope for.
infinity (either being or non-being) cannot be created in as much as it would be an infinite and eternal act of creation, but even then that implies a time when infinity didn't exist, and that negates its definition of infinite - nothing bounded by the sudden existence of infinite something, can we expect a return to infinite nothing at some point? if there was always something, we have all we need for all this and "god" wouldn't be responsible for its inception.
All these people who want to argue endlessly and pointlessly in philosophy and/or semantics about belief in gods are wasting time. Either produce evidence that a real live god has ever existed, or forget it.
@chicarbiomed Comments like that are always great to hear. Did you come to this conclusion yourself? Or did you argue with atheists in the past? So, how long has it been? What were you before? Sorry. I'm curious. For me, my transition from Roman Catholic to atheist took ~6 years. During that period, I went from agnostic to pantheist. Going on ~14 yrs now. At this point, I think belief in the supernatural (let alone gods and religion) is just... primitive and silly. People must awaken.
@whanethewhip the question is loaded and flawed; you mean to ask what programmed us not "who", who implies a person or an intelligence was behind it all, which is a position that is not supported by even a shred of scientific evidence.
@jrda128 The whole point is that people who believe in god(s) are only a single misunderstanding away from being a reasonable free-thinking person. And the people who phone in to the show often are wavering already and the discussions on the show will give them some understanding of logic and reason.
The problem with the story of the Fall, is that, even though it doesn't say it explicitly, what it really meant by knowledge of good and evil is sexual morality. That is why God knew there was a problem by them knowing they were naked. It was implicitly assumed by the writers that everyone knew the killing and stealing and disobeying God was wrong - they just didn't know how dirty their naughty bits were. With Judeo-Christians/Muslims it always comes back to the naughty bits.
the caller is saying hope is God and it cannot be proven or disproved because its existence is self evident, you know when you are hoping for something. caller turned God into a metaphysical concept, which is correct in a sense.
But there is no reason to believe so. Apart from wishy washy feelings. If something is self evident, then it should be provable. We can't waste our time with fairytales.
Jeff Dee left quite a few years ago. Russell Glasser left a few years ago. Not sure if he is still part of the ACA. Would love to see Jeff Dee back someday.
@Anonymous247n yeah I agree to an extent, I don't think his argument was very convincing or significant, I just felt like he kept trying to clarify and at the end they just went ehhhh we need to move on. But I guess they probably never would have reached an agreement.
@Multimorten Sure, but I think it's pretty boring when someone calls in and goes "this verse in the Bible is pretty ridiculous, isn't it?" or "why do some Christians refuse to accept evolution?".
@lotmein20 correct me if im wrong but stance just means a position you take with respect to something, if you take the position pf rejecting a claim you don't believe in that's a stance.
@AcoraZ3RO I understand your point, but in the end i disagree, one psychology teacher in college once told me that people who behave like children benefit from authoritarian leadership to tell what to do, people who behave like adults need a coordinator that not only is democratic but also just works like a peer reviewer. So it's up to the people, maybe one day we'll have a world population educated enough that we start behaving like adults, who knows
@lotmein20 nobody, I just explained why atheism doesn't mean you believe god doesn't exist, so atheism doesn't have to be a belief.... necessarily... unless you're a 'strong atheist'
@LordSlag well, he's kind of right, there is stuff out there that we don't understand... thing is, that's mainly because we haven't observed it very well or been able to put it under a microscope yet... I say "just wait, science will prevail!"
Every time a religious guy appeals to “incomprehensible God” my answer is “I don’t see the Emperor’s new clothes so they likely don’t exist and you’re a cheat or you fell for the mind trick”
some of them may be christians and are calling you to try to understand coz they cannot question thier pastors or preachers or fellow christians without persecution.
It seemed to me like all that Jonathan guy was saying was that its part of human nature to hope that perhaps there are forces in the universe we can't understand that may allow us to escape our demise. I think that's what he meant by logical. I felt they were a little hard on him. And the really cynical part of my brain is telling me they framed what he was saying as the more common assertion made by theists that belief basically equals reality, just so they could rip on him a little.
@lotmein20 "Atheist" just means someone who has rejected the claim that a specific god exists. It really doesn't have anything to do with belief. Someone makes the god claim and gives evidence, and then the atheist, after finding the 'evidence' to be insubstantial, rejects the claim.
Caller: "you can call it whatever you want, I call it god."
Me: "OK, I call it nonsense."
Johnathan doesn't even know what's going on in his own head, which is why no one else does, either.
This is the most calm I’ve ever seen Jeff Dee. I love his brutal and justified rants.
Thanks for hanging up on Joseph.
most of my christian friends really do not want to debate...nor do they want to think...
Unfriendly them, instantly!
@@larjkok1184 MLB
Poor Jonathan. Endlessly trapped in fuzzy semantics.
:That may well be but, it's not our problem." Lol Fucking hilarious.
I love the look on Jeff Dee's face when Joseph went off on his rambling monologue. Come back to AXP Jeff!
I asked Jeff if he would ever come back just the other day. He said that he doesn't see it happening anytime in the foreseeable future. I didn't want to press him on it any further but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. I think he's just kind of over it and moved on.
@T S No idea. He's a successful game designer so maybe he just wants to focus on his work in that field. That's just speculation, but as polarizing as atheist activism can be, I'm sure his career is better off without it.
46:30 My gosh, it's hubris to assert that there is no Easter Bunny!
@MrAgentGreeny Thanks, glad to be here! I couldn't imagine being anywhere else.
Woot woot to you making it out to Orlando. I came out to meet Russell and a few others when I went to Austin on my last trip there.
JEFF DEE! :D
if that's how often you've been uploading them, clearly i've missed them the past few weeks.lol.
~ The music at the beginning is a pleasant reminder of the song, Hello It's Me by the Nazz, 1968-69.
One more thing that is cool and interesting about this video in 2019. Thank you, Russell and Jeff. Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
I didn't get the feeling that Jonathan was really even making an argument for the belief in a god.
He seems to recognize that he only has an emotional, irrational hope of avoiding death. I think he just figured that if he explained his reasoning to others, they may agree that his hopes are justified, when he himself knows that they really aren't.
He may call himself a theist, but I honestly don't see how he is. Or if he is, that he will be much longer.
@ 41:00 regarding the mention of "obedience"....it's interesting to point out that "obedience" is the core doctrine of every totalitarian dictatorship one earth, past or present...North Korea being the current shining example.
I would never admit to being obedient to any being, human or not!
Throughout the episode, Russell keeps getting disappointed that he can't interject while the caller is talking, but in a different episode Matt mentioned that the caller can't hear the mikes when the caller is talking.
I don't want to believe, I want to know.
~ Carl Sagan
"If there's a drought and you hope it rains, then it's logical to believe that it rained"
No. This is the point where Johnathan dissolves into utter nonsense and starts saying things that are blatantly false. He's talking about wishful thinking as if that makes anything real. Sorry, bub, that's completely wrong.
Look at how they quickly helped direct that fella towards the dilemma. Good work guys
the intro is so awesome it makes me cry.
Great show... as always.
The opening music makes me wish I was born unable to hear.
"Most people" wanting an after life doesn't constitute a logic proof, or even a logical argument.
Karl Johanson I wouldn't even want to live a billion years even on Earth. It's a ghastly thought having to wake up 365 billion times.
as for the first caller, he reminded me of me just before my deconversion. one of the major hurtles in losing my belief was getting over faith in faith itself. the caller seems stuck on this point. he feels faith is still a virtue and he does this by equating it with hope. always hope for the best right? well, believers just have a natural hope that their faith isn't misplaced, therefore its natural for them to have faith, and that bases in hope means it cant be that bad... right?... right?.
So Jonathan believes something which he admits there's no evidence.... Really?
Armadyl they should of just called bullshit aa soon as he threw that out there
Heh, I just noticed the "Russell's Teapot" shirt that Russell's wearing. Cool shirt.
@maixck No,you are wrong. This is real example: My cat "Teazle" has been diagnosed with osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and i really hope she will be OK because she has been a wonderful little companion and is to young to have such a terrible disease, but i have been told she will not be OK by my vet, probably only has 1-2 years to live. I hope my vet is wrong. But it is illogical to believe she will live for another 10 years. i just hope she does.
lol at the akward silence at the end.
Probably one of the funniest shows I have seen, it even ended with hilarity. :)
LOL @ the caller "Joseph"
Jeff really put the hammer down on that guy. Ouch!
Google is awesome, I googled "eutocro dilemma" and it said "did you mean: Euthyphro Dilimma". Oh, how I love you Google! You help me be a more educated atheist! :-D (yes all of this was before Russell spelled it out lol)
@DarkDDexter I think you misunderstand - I am talking BIG SCALE here.
The universe (as far as we can tell) IS a closed system.
These immortal cells you speak of will eventually succumb to the concept of entropy, as indeed the entire planet Earth will.
@Lleanlleawrg I don't think there has been any new episodes for 2 weeks but i just listen to the podcast so i always get to listen to the show even if it isn't uploaded to youtube
ur grandpa was a very wise man props good sir for sharing
@Uberlaser The second law of thermodynamics does not say that. Furthermore, it applies to closed physical systems. Eternal life is not only possible, its happening, in practice, right now. Immortal cell lines are used in research all the time, and one has been around for sixty-years.
jonathan sounds confusing, there is no way for me to 'hope' something into existence no matter how hard i try! lol
great show lads, cheers from san diego
I get so excited when you guys post new videos hahaha.
3:47 Oh Russell and his humor, well done.
I laughed at that too. Picturing two people crowded together on that loveseat.
I like how Russell says "there is no way of knowing", like we look the same...
Russell is wearing "Russell's Teapot"!!! hahaha
@InfectedInHD The problem isn't with any of what he said about it being unprovable, it was that he was saying that because it's unprovable, it's logical to believe in whatever you would like to exist, which isn't logical at all. You can hope for whatever you want, but there's still no good reason to assign characteristics to something you don't know anything about, regardless of what you hope.
uuh uhh..uuh you know...uhhh...you know... Russel: "Are you a professional public speaker of some sort?" loool
@pvszrox1997 Jeffs shirt not Russels. I knew about the teapot though, thanks.
@TheAtheistExperience By all means I'm not whining or anything. I was simply responding to the statement that you uploaded weekly, which while this is generally speaking true, isn't neccesarily always the case. I'm very pleased that you wish to maintain this fan channel by uploading full episodes, and I think I speak for everyone when I say that. So don't take it as negative criticism. : >
I don't get this bat and ball problem. I would love for some one to make a video explaining it.
@Thetrooper14 The name of the song and the singer are in the credits at the end of the show.
I get a headache whenever someone mentions Plantinga. His whole modal logic spiel boils down to "I can make shit up and hope really, really hard it's true, and thus it's probably true." Modal logic is pretty useless as a whole IMO, and even if it has a use, it's not for proving supernatural shit.
LOL! What's Russell's issue with Lubbock?
This is my FAVORITE episode so far lol
@hellomoto170 Well all he was saying was that he hopes god exists, and believes. They kept asking "how do you know" and he kept saying "i don't" so it was all just a misunderstanding basically. They were trying too hard to argue with him because he said he's a theist.
One question to that first guy.
If it cant be examined or known, why do you believe that it exists?
@Ultra4 And that was my point. We don't have a world that is that educated, and even if we did, there would still be those who are educated enough to realize that they can gain power.
Could you cut out the announcements at the beginning? Not really applicable three weeks after the fact.
having it live and having all the funny parts where they mess up it, is so class haha, definitely keep it like that
First caller's logic: "it can't be proven wrong, therefore it's logical to believe it". Doesn't he realise this would apply to an infinite number of things, most of which would be contradictory and/or nonsensical?
I haven't seen this in a while.
Nooooo! Not Jonathan again.
there are 2 possibilities regarding infinity. 1. infinite being. 2. infinite non-being. infinity cannot be broken. therefore, the only feasible claim regarding god, existence, and infinity is that god must BE everything that exists (energy in different forms). only this way can it confirm its omnipresence. but omniscience cannot be confirmed, because WE believe and do not know. you can't know and believe, believing is born from not knowing. thus, omnipotence cannot be confirmed either.
As Mark Twain put it: "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." To be honest, if you actually contemplate living forever, it is a fairly frightening idea. How soon do you get bored to the point of suicide? 10,000 yrs? 100,000 yrs? 1,000,000,000 yrs? And, since you are eternal, that billion years is just the start. Death may be the most merciful fate we can hope for.
infinity (either being or non-being) cannot be created in as much as it would be an infinite and eternal act of creation, but even then that implies a time when infinity didn't exist, and that negates its definition of infinite - nothing bounded by the sudden existence of infinite something, can we expect a return to infinite nothing at some point? if there was always something, we have all we need for all this and "god" wouldn't be responsible for its inception.
Jeff suddenly looks like he did when he was with TSR. I don't know if it's a haircut or what, but he's de-aged.
All these people who want to argue endlessly and pointlessly in philosophy and/or semantics about belief in gods are wasting time. Either produce evidence that a real live god has ever existed, or forget it.
The technical name for Julius Caesar as a god is Divus Iulius (there are no J's in Latin).
@chicarbiomed Comments like that are always great to hear. Did you come to this conclusion yourself? Or did you argue with atheists in the past?
So, how long has it been? What were you before? Sorry. I'm curious.
For me, my transition from Roman Catholic to atheist took ~6 years. During that period, I went from agnostic to pantheist.
Going on ~14 yrs now. At this point, I think belief in the supernatural (let alone gods and religion) is just... primitive and silly.
People must awaken.
Johnathan from Arlington is an intellectual poseur. He talks way above his understanding.
@whanethewhip the question is loaded and flawed; you mean to ask what programmed us not "who", who implies a person or an intelligence was behind it all, which is a position that is not supported by even a shred of scientific evidence.
@jrda128 The whole point is that people who believe in god(s) are only a single misunderstanding away from being a reasonable free-thinking person. And the people who phone in to the show often are wavering already and the discussions on the show will give them some understanding of logic and reason.
The problem with the story of the Fall, is that, even though it doesn't say it explicitly, what it really meant by knowledge of good and evil is sexual morality. That is why God knew there was a problem by them knowing they were naked. It was implicitly assumed by the writers that everyone knew the killing and stealing and disobeying God was wrong - they just didn't know how dirty their naughty bits were. With Judeo-Christians/Muslims it always comes back to the naughty bits.
the caller is saying hope is God and it cannot be proven or disproved because its existence is self evident, you know when you are hoping for something. caller turned God into a metaphysical concept, which is correct in a sense.
But there is no reason to believe so. Apart from wishy washy feelings. If something is self evident, then it should be provable. We can't waste our time with fairytales.
Does anyone know what happen to these 2 guys? Are they still part of the ACA ?
Jeff Dee left quite a few years ago. Russell Glasser left a few years ago. Not sure if he is still part of the ACA. Would love to see Jeff Dee back someday.
Where would you buy T-shirts like that?
I love what you say at abou 36:00 sooo true, exactly what i wanted to hear from you guys, it makes me really happy :D
Im in orlando, and its November. Is the honeymoon over?
Your Grandpa rocked!
@Anonymous247n yeah I agree to an extent, I don't think his argument was very convincing or significant, I just felt like he kept trying to clarify and at the end they just went ehhhh we need to move on. But I guess they probably never would have reached an agreement.
@MohawkMangopit This statement is so awesome, it left skid marks on my brain. :)
@Multimorten Sure, but I think it's pretty boring when someone calls in and goes "this verse in the Bible is pretty ridiculous, isn't it?" or "why do some Christians refuse to accept evolution?".
@lotmein20 correct me if im wrong but stance just means a position you take with respect to something, if you take the position pf rejecting a claim you don't believe in that's a stance.
that one early caller has to be a bassist
The first caller sounds like he has an interesting argument. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the hell his argument actually is.
I'm always amazed at the intricate mental acrobatics that theists engage in to justify their position.
@AcoraZ3RO I understand your point, but in the end i disagree, one psychology teacher in college once told me that people who behave like children benefit from authoritarian leadership to tell what to do, people who behave like adults need a coordinator that not only is democratic but also just works like a peer reviewer. So it's up to the people, maybe one day we'll have a world population educated enough that we start behaving like adults, who knows
How to shut down a charlatan @47:25
Well fuckin' done man!
Awesome! Made my day to see that!
Thank you thank you thank you.
I love when Jeff is on. Sometimes Russell is too damn polite.
I think there was no option but to do what Jeff did brilliantly. He did not phone in to discuss - but to make a statement.
energy cannot be created nor destroyed....also thermodynamics law of conservation?
@SwineNahNah And much of the information he had was either wrong or incomplete. That doesn't, however, make the idea overworldly.
@lotmein20 nobody, I just explained why atheism doesn't mean you believe god doesn't exist, so atheism doesn't have to be a belief.... necessarily... unless you're a 'strong atheist'
19:51 "one can only hope" LOL
@LordSlag well, he's kind of right, there is stuff out there that we don't understand... thing is, that's mainly because we haven't observed it very well or been able to put it under a microscope yet... I say "just wait, science will prevail!"
Every time a religious guy appeals to “incomprehensible God” my answer is “I don’t see the Emperor’s new clothes so they likely don’t exist and you’re a cheat or you fell for the mind trick”
"And I say, 'Hey would you answer these questions' and he'll say, 'Those are stupid questions.'" OMG Russell's been talking with my father!
some of them may be christians and are calling you to try to understand coz they cannot question thier pastors or preachers or fellow christians without persecution.
@lewiar
Yeah, I was very unthrilled with how the first caller was using the term "infinity"
It seemed to me like all that Jonathan guy was saying was that its part of human nature to hope that perhaps there are forces in the universe we can't understand that may allow us to escape our demise. I think that's what he meant by logical.
I felt they were a little hard on him. And the really cynical part of my brain is telling me they framed what he was saying as the more common assertion made by theists that belief basically equals reality, just so they could rip on him a little.
@lotmein20 "Atheist" just means someone who has rejected the claim that a specific god exists. It really doesn't have anything to do with belief. Someone makes the god claim and gives evidence, and then the atheist, after finding the 'evidence' to be insubstantial, rejects the claim.
The first caller is talking in circular non-sequiturs, and thus, saying nothing.
I'm from Louisvile KY... had no idea anyone else here was a atheist...
New episode. Yay!
I'm pretty sure the first caller is Deepak Chopra
Dammit. he video doesn't load with the HTML5 player. I'd rather not have to install damn Flash...