Yes. Faith hinges on doubt. Faith is not the absence of doubt, but the choice to suspend it under the assumption that you don't have all knowledge. All knowledge would remove doubt.
I've seen two interesting things related to this. A girl claiming that she didn't believe in evolution because it's just a "theory" (showing perhaps her choice to forget or her school's failure at teacher her the difference between a "scientific theory" and the layman's use of the word "theory") Also an entire video wherein someone was arguing god exists JUST because we don't know everything. I think it was something along the lines of "we don't know how the universe works, therefore God." To me that's equivalent to saying, "I don't know how a car engine works, therefore I should never drive a car". Needless to say the arguments were a little.........................confusing.
It's also nice that in the end, when Sister Aloysius has doubts, the one who comes to console her is Sister James, the one who represents the concept of faith.
A person of faith would see that as a good thing. An atheist not so much. To an atheist (who does not believe gods are real), if Sister James represents faith, she is in effect bolstering misguided faith. To an atheist, such an act serves to undermine reality and maintain harmful (or at the very least useless) superstition.
I was confused about the sister's doubt at the end. I wasn't sure if she had doubt about Flynn, or rather doubt about her faith, or her dedication to the Catholic church that she fears protects the wrong people. I've only watched it once, but definitely deserves and needs a second watch
As I see it, the movie is about Christian faith in general, and not about the specific issues covered by the story. The specific issues that form the basis of the story are merely the setting, and the story gives us just one of the questions that raises the issue of whether there is a loving and just god (i.e. if there is a just and loving god, how could that god allow those who engage in sexual abuse to prosper). The ending is all about the question of whether the Christian God can be real.
@@patricksheldon5859 i sorta wish it was that simple but after a massive story and performances like that to end it with her literally meaning she has doubt if he molested the kid or not seems wrong and doesnt align with the rest of the movies ambiguousness
At the end of the movie, she says that she had to step away from God in order to pursue addressing the wrongdoing, but that there are consequences. And then she says "I have such doubts!" Which seems to me that she now has doubts about the existence of God at all, that He would allow this sort of wrong thing to be happening. And those are the kinds of doubts that would be devastating to her, I would think.
...I wish I had your video series when I went through a crisis of faith after getting a theological degree. Thank you for embracing the struggle to understand.
Interesting. I must've viewed the film with a different mindset, because I saw the priest as almost certainly guilty and interpreted that closing line, "I have such doubts," as referring to doubts about God and/or Catholicism! Perhaps my own biases were taking over a bit too much. :) Anyway, I'm glad as always to hear your thoughtful analyses.
Keep in mind that this is 1964. In hind sight we know that there were priests who abused little boys. But in 1964 no one knew about this. For a nun to come to that conclusion with absolutely no evidence is not plausible. Meryl Streep is what we used to call "bitchy nuns" when I was a student (graduated from grammar school in 1964). I love this movie (and I loved the nuns), but there is NO evidence that Father Flynn did anything wrong. He befriended a Black little boy who was being persecuted
Her doubt was in the church and her calling due to father Flynn’s promotion, the church’s male hierarchy and protection of abusers. She never doubted her instincts and she was right - because she knows people. A skill learnt through exposure and experience. The boys mother knows but her own life experiences tell her that abuse is for some sadly a fact of life and she is focused on keeping her son alive and getting him into a good school because education will be his ticket, his freedom. She sees her son.
The incorrect view that equates faith and certainty is very popular though, it seems to be one of the ways in which a certain type of religious people reconciles how complicated and demanding faith can be with... well, an easy answer that allows them to not have to think about it. I would posit that such a false equivalency is one of the major reasons religious ideology can and has turned toxic in a number of people, certainty leads neatly into absolutism after all...
So glad this got a turn on the show. I remember really enjoying it. Its a great performance from both Meryl Streep and Philip Seymour Hoffman. Nice to see you taking a look at it.
The best explanation so far as to the conflict between certainty and doubt. Where father Flynn is/was incorrect is the notion that "there's something new in people." I believe that is the most important presumption (assertion of V2) and at the root of the conflict, however. Sister Aloisius is actualy correct, but her only means of resolving this conflict is force of habit (methodology.) If man is perfect able (John Locke/progressivism,) then salvation requires no intercession (Christ.)
Interesting perspective. Having not a single religious or spiritual bond in my body, I understand the movie from Sister Aloysius' perspective. She is one of my most favorite movie characters ever. Everything in the words of Flynn suggests he is guilty - using authority, trying to aggressively preach against gossip, being afraid of the nun's feedback from his last position. And her certainty comes from a moral place - certain things shouldn't be allowed no matter the rank! Considering how guilty the Catholic Church is of pedophilia, she is right to kick him out even at the slightest of suspicion. She has duty regardless of the doubt and conflicts she experiences throughout the whole movie, not only at the end. She is truly the representation of the doubt Flynn talks about but it doesn't mean that the movie ends with her being wrong or it is too late.... The idea is that she is still a human and not god. Crow is a symbol of god's provision, it is not a symbol of threat or imprisonment. It is a symbol of truth which Aloysius sees and won't let go. The sister is a presentation of what is like to be alone against everybody, to trust your own judgement, to decide and take responsibility. Flynn sounds and acts as a person who is not taking responsibility for his own actions, too afraid of the consequences. This change that he talks about is not in favor of people... Redemption is the only right way.
@meow he was not a man of God. He didn't once open that Bible during his sermons. He only spoke of Jesus once. Once. That is not a man of God. The mother knew he was molesting Donald. Listen to the conversation again.
@@celladora31 She not only had no proof, she outright admits to fabricating evidence. Is that something a believer should be doing? Someone who has faith in god?
I don't think sister Aloysius meant she has doubts about father Flynn being guilty. I think she meant she has doubts about Catholicism and catholic church itself.
The priest gives sermon about gossip while he himself was gossiping about a mother and daughter in the beginning... an advantage of being a priest over a nun
@@Steef_Lee king Solomon was given both riches and Wisdom when he asked God for just wisdom,. he was rewarded. Definitely think the Bible and its parables encourage knowledge and more extensively, questioning your faith.
i think it’s very funny that my oma was concerned when my ops became quite vocal about his doubts concerning faith - not because he was questioning it though, most of their friends are from church & she was worried about offended them (they didn’t care ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." "But," says man, "the Babelfish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore you don't. QED" "I hadn't thought of that," says God, and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
I think that Sister A..'s doubt comment at the end of the movie is her doubt about the way the Catholic church does things and that her unshakable certainty is questioned and that nobody believes her yet she seems certain... she seems certain that Father Flynn is a wrongdoer however Sister A.'s doubt is about the church the way someone who could be potentially deemed as a wrongdoer gets a promotion instead of a questionable church with some kind of investigation instead the hush-hush of keeping things quiet which is what the church has done to cover pedophile priests but it is not clear in this movie what the truth is so it leaves you questioning what happened... why wasn't Donal Miller questioned? Who knows.. interesting movie.
The movie faces dogmas. Maryl streep character is an old traditional and Phillip s character is the charismatic priest. Anything that shakes the peaceful routine of the church must be devil's work.
uh, hi just a question. i think you stated that you dont really like auteur theory, but if some one were to patreon request a video on a directors auteurial intentions, would you turn them down?
I think it’s likely he didn’t want his former congregations contacted because he was found out to be gay in those churches. Not necessarily because he was a sexual predator. I think the movie is meant to be read either way. Hence the “doubts” that Aloysius had at the end.
I think she represents doubt and he represents certainty. In the beginning, he was certain in his sermon about Doubt, but she was already doubting him. The only thing she was certain about is her doubt about father flynns good intentions. She was overly suspicious, presumptuous, and hoping to find evidence of his guilt, because she had an inherent need to prove herself right. She doubted him the whole time. Her treatment of him in this manner is just one example of someone she's done this to. She treats everyone with rigidity. You get the feeling watching this that this is a pattern for her. I think the movie is called doubt because she has a problem doubting everyones good intentions. At the end she realizes that her doubt in father flynn, is something of a problem for her in that she has to continuously have an object of blame. Her rigidity is a burden for her. but then she finally realizes that she has a problem believing anyone can live up to her standards or really be a good person. When she says, "I have such doubts" she is having sort of an epiphany where she realizes the heavy burden she carries in her doubt and suspicion of everyone, not just father Flynn.
I felt she had doubts about the Church & about her choice to be a nun, NOT doubts about what had happened between the priest and the altarboy. Many altarboys. Everybody involved, including the boy's mother, seemed to have reached the same conclusion. Perhaps even doubting God, in why this is allowed. Many "people of faith" aren't member of the Catholic Church.
Perhaps it leads to wanting to understand more and find more answers and details? Doubt, in a way, lead to our current understanding of astrophysics and sciences. Thinking of doubt as external doubt that It’s the whole answer or right answer, or internal doubt that your current understanding is complete
Do you mean the Book of Ecclesiasticus? No, it's not "like" Revelation. It's a different book. Also called the Book of Sirach. This video is three years old. I have no idea if I even mentioned that in the video, but if that is what you are talking about, I hope that was helpful.
i thought it was obvious all his actions were to protect the boy. Thats why they made a big deal showing the feathers AKA rumors flying everywhere and impossible to get them back. She wouldnt stop..and she had no evidence. He knew there was no way this would resolve itself and the boy would have a chance at a normal life. Im surprised to see so many comments totally believing he was a child molester and this scene or that scene proved it bc of a small decision the actor made by nodding yes and saying no, or him getting riled up about her calling another nun. No evidence was shown in the movie .. even remotely.. of his guilt. But we do know nuns like this are the norm not the exception and he knows his methods and new way of approaching religion isnt liked by old school nuns so they probably all have it out for him. In the end im surprised i havent seen more comments simply explain why he left without a fight. It was to protect the kid bc even if he won, like the feathers.. it wouldnt matter. Especially with how kids are. And his father too in his case
I never doubted Merril Streep's character was dead wrong. I like the pillow scene when Philip Seymour Hoffman explains what gossip can do when it spread and is false
Great analysis of the film. but all of the tenets are complete bs, a construct of humans trying to understand the chaos of the universe. i wish i could believe, but it's all about evolution of life. not about myth.
![Movies I Love (and so can you): Doubt (2008) [*Spoilers*]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AA03nPfFwEo/mqdefault.jpg)
Yes. Faith hinges on doubt. Faith is not the absence of doubt, but the choice to suspend it under the assumption that you don't have all knowledge. All knowledge would remove doubt.
I've seen two interesting things related to this.
A girl claiming that she didn't believe in evolution because it's just a "theory" (showing perhaps her choice to forget or her school's failure at teacher her the difference between a "scientific theory" and the layman's use of the word "theory")
Also an entire video wherein someone was arguing god exists JUST because we don't know everything. I think it was something along the lines of "we don't know how the universe works, therefore God." To me that's equivalent to saying, "I don't know how a car engine works, therefore I should never drive a car". Needless to say the arguments were a little.........................confusing.
Agnosticism is all about embracing doubt instead of blind, unfunded certainty, but leaving the door open to reconsider your... belief.
This is a good one. As a UA-cam video essayist you're uniquely well spoken on the topics of religion and faith
I always find your thoughts on religious themes very interesting. Thank you for sharing them.
It's also nice that in the end, when Sister Aloysius has doubts, the one who comes to console her is Sister James, the one who represents the concept of faith.
A person of faith would see that as a good thing. An atheist not so much. To an atheist (who does not believe gods are real), if Sister James represents faith, she is in effect bolstering misguided faith. To an atheist, such an act serves to undermine reality and maintain harmful (or at the very least useless) superstition.
I was confused about the sister's doubt at the end. I wasn't sure if she had doubt about Flynn, or rather doubt about her faith, or her dedication to the Catholic church that she fears protects the wrong people. I've only watched it once, but definitely deserves and needs a second watch
Could be doubt on everything.
As I see it, the movie is about Christian faith in general, and not about the specific issues covered by the story. The specific issues that form the basis of the story are merely the setting, and the story gives us just one of the questions that raises the issue of whether there is a loving and just god (i.e. if there is a just and loving god, how could that god allow those who engage in sexual abuse to prosper). The ending is all about the question of whether the Christian God can be real.
I took it as doubt in how she handled the situation
@@patricksheldon5859 i sorta wish it was that simple but after a massive story and performances like that to end it with her literally meaning she has doubt if he molested the kid or not seems wrong and doesnt align with the rest of the movies ambiguousness
At the end of the movie, she says that she had to step away from God in order to pursue addressing the wrongdoing, but that there are consequences. And then she says "I have such doubts!" Which seems to me that she now has doubts about the existence of God at all, that He would allow this sort of wrong thing to be happening. And those are the kinds of doubts that would be devastating to her, I would think.
I love this movie so much. MasterClass filmmaking, brilliant performances, and a gripping and nuanced story. Great dissection!
I was destroyed by Donald's mother's reaction.
This channel is so underrated. Amazing.
...I wish I had your video series when I went through a crisis of faith after getting a theological degree. Thank you for embracing the struggle to understand.
Interesting. I must've viewed the film with a different mindset, because I saw the priest as almost certainly guilty and interpreted that closing line, "I have such doubts," as referring to doubts about God and/or Catholicism! Perhaps my own biases were taking over a bit too much. :) Anyway, I'm glad as always to hear your thoughtful analyses.
Keep in mind that this is 1964. In hind sight we know that there were priests who abused little boys. But in 1964 no one knew about this. For a nun to come to that conclusion with absolutely no evidence is not plausible. Meryl Streep is what we used to call "bitchy nuns" when I was a student (graduated from grammar school in 1964). I love this movie (and I loved the nuns), but there is NO evidence that Father Flynn did anything wrong. He befriended a Black little boy who was being persecuted
Dude you’ve been knocking it out of the park lately. Really enjoying these videos.
Her doubt was in the church and her calling due to father Flynn’s promotion, the church’s male hierarchy and protection of abusers. She never doubted her instincts and she was right - because she knows people. A skill learnt through exposure and experience. The boys mother knows but her own life experiences tell her that abuse is for some sadly a fact of life and she is focused on keeping her son alive and getting him into a good school because education will be his ticket, his freedom. She sees her son.
The incorrect view that equates faith and certainty is very popular though, it seems to be one of the ways in which a certain type of religious people reconciles how complicated and demanding faith can be with... well, an easy answer that allows them to not have to think about it. I would posit that such a false equivalency is one of the major reasons religious ideology can and has turned toxic in a number of people, certainty leads neatly into absolutism after all...
The intro to this video inspired me to watch Doubt before I continued. Good movie, strong performances, layered themes.
So glad this got a turn on the show. I remember really enjoying it. Its a great performance from both Meryl Streep and Philip Seymour Hoffman. Nice to see you taking a look at it.
Shanley's play is perfect. Every word is meanongful
The best explanation so far as to the conflict between certainty and doubt.
Where father Flynn is/was incorrect is the notion that "there's something new in people." I believe that is the most important presumption (assertion of V2) and at the root of the conflict, however. Sister Aloisius is actualy correct, but her only means of resolving this conflict is force of habit (methodology.)
If man is perfect able (John Locke/progressivism,) then salvation requires no intercession (Christ.)
Your explanation of this movie was so deep 😭🙏🏻 Thank you so much ❤️
Interesting perspective. Having not a single religious or spiritual bond in my body, I understand the movie from Sister Aloysius' perspective. She is one of my most favorite movie characters ever. Everything in the words of Flynn suggests he is guilty - using authority, trying to aggressively preach against gossip, being afraid of the nun's feedback from his last position. And her certainty comes from a moral place - certain things shouldn't be allowed no matter the rank! Considering how guilty the Catholic Church is of pedophilia, she is right to kick him out even at the slightest of suspicion. She has duty regardless of the doubt and conflicts she experiences throughout the whole movie, not only at the end. She is truly the representation of the doubt Flynn talks about but it doesn't mean that the movie ends with her being wrong or it is too late.... The idea is that she is still a human and not god. Crow is a symbol of god's provision, it is not a symbol of threat or imprisonment. It is a symbol of truth which Aloysius sees and won't let go. The sister is a presentation of what is like to be alone against everybody, to trust your own judgement, to decide and take responsibility. Flynn sounds and acts as a person who is not taking responsibility for his own actions, too afraid of the consequences. This change that he talks about is not in favor of people... Redemption is the only right way.
@meow he was not a man of God. He didn't once open that Bible during his sermons. He only spoke of Jesus once. Once. That is not a man of God.
The mother knew he was molesting Donald. Listen to the conversation again.
@@celladora31 She not only had no proof, she outright admits to fabricating evidence. Is that something a believer should be doing? Someone who has faith in god?
Phillip Seymour Hoffman was the greatest actor to ever live
Very fascinating (as usual). Excellent film btw with great performances.
Yo I just finished watching this
Thanks for discussing this movie. As someone who went to Catholic schools, I thought this movie was excellent
Great analisys of this masterpiece
I don't think sister Aloysius meant she has doubts about father Flynn being guilty. I think she meant she has doubts about Catholicism and catholic church itself.
The priest gives sermon about gossip while he himself was gossiping about a mother and daughter in the beginning... an advantage of being a priest over a nun
This film's meaning or meanings really does depend on the period in which it is viewed.
Great analysis, thank you!
Great analysis
Thanks
Exelellent analysis. Thank you.
asking questions should be encouraged and the bible says question what we hear
@@Steef_Lee king Solomon was given both riches and Wisdom when he asked God for just wisdom,. he was rewarded. Definitely think the Bible and its parables encourage knowledge and more extensively, questioning your faith.
It was also the time of or just after the second vatican council when great changes came to the rc church. Okay, you brought that up too 😊 ofcourse.
Suspicious Aloyius?
Thank you.
I loved this. I really enjoy your work
Wow thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you for this video and all the others i watched without thanking you
i think it’s very funny that my oma was concerned when my ops became quite vocal about his doubts concerning faith - not because he was questioning it though, most of their friends are from church & she was worried about offended them (they didn’t care ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."
"But," says man, "the Babelfish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore you don't. QED"
"I hadn't thought of that," says God, and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
Grate interpretation.
tanks
Awesome.
I think that Sister A..'s doubt comment at the end of the movie is her doubt about the way the Catholic church does things and that her unshakable certainty is questioned and that nobody believes her yet she seems certain... she seems certain that Father Flynn is a wrongdoer however Sister A.'s doubt is about the church the way someone who could be potentially deemed as a wrongdoer gets a promotion instead of a questionable church with some kind of investigation instead the hush-hush of keeping things quiet which is what the church has done to cover pedophile priests but it is not clear in this movie what the truth is so it leaves you questioning what happened... why wasn't Donal Miller questioned? Who knows.. interesting movie.
Meryl has the Bronx accent down
Awesome video, love your take on my favorite play ergo movie; but lord, I certainly believe this video could have benefited from captions lol
for you know, us stups that need to rewind to grap the syllogisms and whatnot
That: is GOSSIP..
The movie faces dogmas. Maryl streep character is an old traditional and Phillip s character is the charismatic priest. Anything that shakes the peaceful routine of the church must be devil's work.
So the "everything under the sun never changes" is like the phrase "war never changes"
Viola Davis acting 👏👏👏👏👏so are the others
uh, hi just a question. i think you stated that you dont really like auteur theory, but if some one were to patreon request a video on a directors auteurial intentions, would you turn them down?
That's not how requests work. You request a movie. Not a topic.
Renegade Cut okay thanks for the clarification
I think it’s likely he didn’t want his former congregations contacted because he was found out to be gay in those churches. Not necessarily because he was a sexual predator. I think the movie is meant to be read either way. Hence the “doubts” that Aloysius had at the end.
I think she represents doubt and he represents certainty. In the beginning, he was certain in his sermon about Doubt, but she was already doubting him. The only thing she was certain about is her doubt about father flynns good intentions. She was overly suspicious, presumptuous, and hoping to find evidence of his guilt, because she had an inherent need to prove herself right. She doubted him the whole time. Her treatment of him in this manner is just one example of someone she's done this to. She treats everyone with rigidity. You get the feeling watching this that this is a pattern for her. I think the movie is called doubt because she has a problem doubting everyones good intentions. At the end she realizes that her doubt in father flynn, is something of a problem for her in that she has to continuously have an object of blame. Her rigidity is a burden for her. but then she finally realizes that she has a problem believing anyone can live up to her standards or really be a good person. When she says, "I have such doubts" she is having sort of an epiphany where she realizes the heavy burden she carries in her doubt and suspicion of everyone, not just father Flynn.
Can you do a video on Annihilation?
I'm sorry, but I don't take requests.
I felt she had doubts about the Church & about her choice to be a nun, NOT doubts about what had happened between the priest and the altarboy. Many altarboys. Everybody involved, including the boy's mother, seemed to have reached the same conclusion. Perhaps even doubting God, in why this is allowed. Many "people of faith" aren't member of the Catholic Church.
I also thought this.
Theists may have doubt, but what role does doubt play in the theists' ontological and moral arguments themselves? (Actual question; kindly reply.)
Perhaps it leads to wanting to understand more and find more answers and details? Doubt, in a way, lead to our current understanding of astrophysics and sciences. Thinking of doubt as external doubt that It’s the whole answer or right answer, or internal doubt that your current understanding is complete
A lot of people in the comments seem to have either failed to watch the video, or failed to understand it.
Abuse of children has taken place in non Catholic schools also. (such as Penn State).
If you not with Renegade... what are you even doing?
It's easy to become part of the religion to be part of a flock. it's not easy to make scripture fit together with reality.
Ecclesiastices. Is that like the Book of Revelations?
Do you mean the Book of Ecclesiasticus? No, it's not "like" Revelation. It's a different book. Also called the Book of Sirach. This video is three years old. I have no idea if I even mentioned that in the video, but if that is what you are talking about, I hope that was helpful.
i thought it was obvious all his actions were to protect the boy. Thats why they made a big deal showing the feathers AKA rumors flying everywhere and impossible to get them back. She wouldnt stop..and she had no evidence. He knew there was no way this would resolve itself and the boy would have a chance at a normal life.
Im surprised to see so many comments totally believing he was a child molester and this scene or that scene proved it bc of a small decision the actor made by nodding yes and saying no, or him getting riled up about her calling another nun. No evidence was shown in the movie .. even remotely.. of his guilt. But we do know nuns like this are the norm not the exception and he knows his methods and new way of approaching religion isnt liked by old school nuns so they probably all have it out for him.
In the end im surprised i havent seen more comments simply explain why he left without a fight. It was to protect the kid bc even if he won, like the feathers.. it wouldnt matter. Especially with how kids are. And his father too in his case
I never doubted Merril Streep's character was dead wrong. I like the pillow scene when Philip Seymour Hoffman explains what gossip can do when it spread and is false
Great analysis of the film. but all of the tenets are complete bs, a construct of humans trying to understand the chaos of the universe. i wish i could believe, but it's all about evolution of life. not about myth.