Saying out loud that the event didn't have beer, and we weren't allowed to bring our own, at any of the event locations (Eminence Community Schools, Eminence Christian Church, Eminence Baptist Church, Citizens Bank, or the A&A Fire Department) is a fact about this race. The why doesn't really matter. The why makes it easier to understand why the rules are what they are, but it doesn't change the outcome. The organizer opted into these arrangements, that's what matters. It can make sense for them to do that, for whatever reasons, and I can still not like it. I understand that there are trade-offs involved. All of these things are OK. Saying out load that everything else equal I would rather do events that have beer at the end is fair. Saying that I will hang out longer at the end if there is beer, is incredibly true :D. I suspect that others feel the same, but I don't know. I don't have the data to support it, which is why I characterized it as a "me problem".
@@mynameiswilson_ Crazy idea... what if... and hear me out... you could do both things at the same time ;P? Most of the races I've been to are like that, and I like that better :D.
Just found your channel. Two things in particular popped out to me: 1) the discussion at the end about 'risk tolerance' (i won't call it fear like someone else did.). I totally agree and I stopped doing crits and road races 15+ years ago because my tolerance for risk seemed to be much lower than people around me. I like to ride 15hrs / week now and have a job and have other life things I want to do. It wasn't worth it back then and isn't worth it now to put myself in dodgey situations that people with higher risk tolerances are fine with. I'm on the fence about trying gravel racing as some of it seems exciting and interesting, but then I see people bombing descents on loose gravel and I know it wouldn't be worth it for me. Any kind of group event like cycling becomes a shared risk environment and riding around people with higher risk tolerance raises the level of risk I am exposing myself to. 2). interesting on the back pain thing. I royally screwed up my back earlier this year and when I eventually was referred for physical therapy they thought it was a nerve thing and hammered me with core work and gave me a couple of exercises (basically flexing my back forward and backward) to alleviate the pain and 'stiffness'. Just fishing for more exercises, did you ever get referred for PT and assigned interesting exercises to do?
If you're anywhere close to NE Iowa, the Big River Gravel Series races are awesome. There is always some risk in a race, but I think the organizer does a great job with the course design to mitigate most of that. And there's beer at the end :D. On the back thing. I do (and did) A LOT of core work. That was part of why I opted for surgery, PT essentially told me that there was nothing left on the table. I think planks, all the planks, are the best bang-for-the-buck. I focus on active planks (alternate touch shoulder with stable hips, both with a kettle bell and without) currently. It's a compound exercise that hits several muscle groups. Hip stability work made a huge difference in the years before I had surgery. There are a few machines at the gym that I use for that to hit the glutes/adductors/quads/hamstrings. The first time I had a massive issue with my back I started going to yoga. Down dog, up dog, crescent lunge, pigeon pose, side-bends. It was a huge help. Best wishes there.
Thanks for this recap. I've started to build up a gravel frame for my first gravel bike. Your thoughts on organized races are useful for someone that used to road race ~15 years ago and is building a base fitness level on solo bike path rides at the moment. I decided to do path riding (mixed between crushed limestone and pavement) because I don't feel comfortable on the road anymore with the amount of distracted drivers. So I have an interest in what the races are like but it sounds like I'll stick to solos or maybe the occasional group ride for a while. Like you I'm not into risk taking anymore at this stage of my life.
I probably should have called out louder that the best way to mitigate risk in an event (any event) is to slow down and find a smaller group where you can see the surface and be comfortable with the behaviors of those around you. The same factors that make Dust Bowl a race where it's difficult to get separation, make it an approachable ride for more people than an event that is 1000 rollers :). With a few tweaks to the course, they could fix the safety concerns that I have. Please don't take away from my videos that there aren't safe, fun, and challenging gravel events. There absolutely are. I would love it if more people who care about safety did gravel events, and expressed their preferences to the organizers. This is how we get heard. Organizers seem to be pressured to add features to events to "make it more challenging". That's fine, but the implementation matters. They often don't seem to be modeling the risk appropriately, like the two choke turns at the end of this course. I love that there are people, like the organizers here, that are investing so much time/effort/sweat/tears into creating these events. I love that I can ride 100 miles and not put a foot down. I love that so many options exist for those of us who want to use races as motivation to get (and stay) fit. I want them to get better though. I want safety to be a requirement, with the understanding that nothing is risk free. It's all about figuring out the balance of risk, and whether it can be mitigated. I hope that helps.
I think the cornering in packs is more risky than that descent. Ohio gravel races usually have multiple descents that are more dangerous than that and don't have callouts because people are used to them. Maybe it's the abruptness and being lulled into a sense of safety from the rest of the course being so flat?
It's really hard to capture how sketchy that descent is on video; that's part of why I included the footage from the front group. There are a few factors that amp it up, like not being able to see what's coming because of the trees and the off camber turn on really loose gravel. If it was just one of those e.g., it would definitely dial back the risk. The high speed and flatness of the course doesn't help. I've never ridden in Ohio so hard to comment. Have ridden (and raced) in a few other states. Haven't run across anything quite like that one yet.
@@Mamilian I did dustbowl that and a couple times prior and I didn't really even clock that descent as being very dangerous. If I was going to call out a dangerous pinch point, I think it would be the bollards you mentioned, or that rutted out single track.
check out the " Driftless 100" in Elkader Iowa. i did the 100k last year they have a 200k for you young guys almost all on gravel with plenty of hills for separation , some sections are loose gravel but the do have beer after
So what are the gravel races you prefer to ride (and are “safer”?) I felt like the DB100 team and course was the best communicated, best marked and least dangerous of all that I’ve ridden. I think gravel is inherently dangerous - but not nearly so as road, crits, MTb. And that’s why (as a middle aged guy) I race it. I think that your fear about it is real - but I also think that you would benefit from some gravel specific training. You had a great result!
I don't think it's fair to characterize calling out safety issues as "fear". As I said in the video, generally the course was very well marked and very well organized, but there were two elements in the course that raise the level of danger to unnecessary levels. The first is that downhill where people crash *every year*. The organizer is aware of this. The guy who won it mentioned it in his video as well. The other is a manufactured hazard at the end. Neither of these elements should be in a race. I don't think it's unreasonable to call that out. I don't think gravel specific training would reduce the risk there. These are dangerous and unnecessary features. There is risk in everything. Racing has risk. Gravel has risk. Add the two together, you get more than 2x the risk. Everyone who lines up at a race has to accept that, and I do every time I go out *to race*. What I don't want to accept is a level of risk that is artificially elevated. When a significant portion of the front group goes down in a corner, that feels artificially elevated. I wouldn't blame their bike handling skills for what happened. Having ridden that corner, I completely understand why they went down. Designing the course to break the groups apart reduces risk. It makes for a better race. I talk about this all the time, because it's true. Smaller groups of similar ability is a safer way to race. Especially on gravel. This course wasn't designed that way. Calling that out isn't *fear*, it's just a fact. But, like I said in the video - that's just something to be aware of with this race. If it was just me, maybe it would be fair to characterize it as a "me" problem. Maybe it would be fair to point out that my bike handling could be better. But, I didn't go down there. I didn't go down on the rest of the course either. I didn't ride the course slow either; probably would have gotten a sub-5 elapsed, on gravel, if my back hadn't blown up. What I did do, is notice that there were an unusual number of people sporting fresh injuries at the finish. I don't think it's unfair, or unreasonable to call that out.
@@mynameiswilson_ At this scale, Gravel Worlds. Smaller races, the Big River Gravel Series. Unfortunately, the organizer of one of my favs (Snaggy Ridge 105) stopped doing it. That would have been on the short list as well.
FYI: No beer was because the event start and finish was on school property.....the school board has set rules about alcohol on the property.
I spent my time chatting with the folks from the school instead of drinking beer. It was worth it. (And then had a beer off site).
Saying out loud that the event didn't have beer, and we weren't allowed to bring our own, at any of the event locations (Eminence Community Schools, Eminence Christian Church, Eminence Baptist Church, Citizens Bank, or the A&A Fire Department) is a fact about this race. The why doesn't really matter. The why makes it easier to understand why the rules are what they are, but it doesn't change the outcome.
The organizer opted into these arrangements, that's what matters. It can make sense for them to do that, for whatever reasons, and I can still not like it. I understand that there are trade-offs involved. All of these things are OK.
Saying out load that everything else equal I would rather do events that have beer at the end is fair. Saying that I will hang out longer at the end if there is beer, is incredibly true :D. I suspect that others feel the same, but I don't know. I don't have the data to support it, which is why I characterized it as a "me problem".
@@mynameiswilson_ Crazy idea... what if... and hear me out... you could do both things at the same time ;P? Most of the races I've been to are like that, and I like that better :D.
Just found your channel. Two things in particular popped out to me: 1) the discussion at the end about 'risk tolerance' (i won't call it fear like someone else did.). I totally agree and I stopped doing crits and road races 15+ years ago because my tolerance for risk seemed to be much lower than people around me. I like to ride 15hrs / week now and have a job and have other life things I want to do. It wasn't worth it back then and isn't worth it now to put myself in dodgey situations that people with higher risk tolerances are fine with. I'm on the fence about trying gravel racing as some of it seems exciting and interesting, but then I see people bombing descents on loose gravel and I know it wouldn't be worth it for me. Any kind of group event like cycling becomes a shared risk environment and riding around people with higher risk tolerance raises the level of risk I am exposing myself to. 2). interesting on the back pain thing. I royally screwed up my back earlier this year and when I eventually was referred for physical therapy they thought it was a nerve thing and hammered me with core work and gave me a couple of exercises (basically flexing my back forward and backward) to alleviate the pain and 'stiffness'. Just fishing for more exercises, did you ever get referred for PT and assigned interesting exercises to do?
If you're anywhere close to NE Iowa, the Big River Gravel Series races are awesome. There is always some risk in a race, but I think the organizer does a great job with the course design to mitigate most of that. And there's beer at the end :D.
On the back thing. I do (and did) A LOT of core work. That was part of why I opted for surgery, PT essentially told me that there was nothing left on the table. I think planks, all the planks, are the best bang-for-the-buck. I focus on active planks (alternate touch shoulder with stable hips, both with a kettle bell and without) currently. It's a compound exercise that hits several muscle groups. Hip stability work made a huge difference in the years before I had surgery. There are a few machines at the gym that I use for that to hit the glutes/adductors/quads/hamstrings. The first time I had a massive issue with my back I started going to yoga. Down dog, up dog, crescent lunge, pigeon pose, side-bends. It was a huge help. Best wishes there.
Thanks for this recap. I've started to build up a gravel frame for my first gravel bike. Your thoughts on organized races are useful for someone that used to road race ~15 years ago and is building a base fitness level on solo bike path rides at the moment. I decided to do path riding (mixed between crushed limestone and pavement) because I don't feel comfortable on the road anymore with the amount of distracted drivers. So I have an interest in what the races are like but it sounds like I'll stick to solos or maybe the occasional group ride for a while. Like you I'm not into risk taking anymore at this stage of my life.
I probably should have called out louder that the best way to mitigate risk in an event (any event) is to slow down and find a smaller group where you can see the surface and be comfortable with the behaviors of those around you. The same factors that make Dust Bowl a race where it's difficult to get separation, make it an approachable ride for more people than an event that is 1000 rollers :). With a few tweaks to the course, they could fix the safety concerns that I have. Please don't take away from my videos that there aren't safe, fun, and challenging gravel events. There absolutely are. I would love it if more people who care about safety did gravel events, and expressed their preferences to the organizers. This is how we get heard. Organizers seem to be pressured to add features to events to "make it more challenging". That's fine, but the implementation matters. They often don't seem to be modeling the risk appropriately, like the two choke turns at the end of this course.
I love that there are people, like the organizers here, that are investing so much time/effort/sweat/tears into creating these events. I love that I can ride 100 miles and not put a foot down. I love that so many options exist for those of us who want to use races as motivation to get (and stay) fit. I want them to get better though. I want safety to be a requirement, with the understanding that nothing is risk free. It's all about figuring out the balance of risk, and whether it can be mitigated.
I hope that helps.
I think the cornering in packs is more risky than that descent. Ohio gravel races usually have multiple descents that are more dangerous than that and don't have callouts because people are used to them. Maybe it's the abruptness and being lulled into a sense of safety from the rest of the course being so flat?
It's really hard to capture how sketchy that descent is on video; that's part of why I included the footage from the front group. There are a few factors that amp it up, like not being able to see what's coming because of the trees and the off camber turn on really loose gravel. If it was just one of those e.g., it would definitely dial back the risk.
The high speed and flatness of the course doesn't help.
I've never ridden in Ohio so hard to comment. Have ridden (and raced) in a few other states. Haven't run across anything quite like that one yet.
@@Mamilian I did dustbowl that and a couple times prior and I didn't really even clock that descent as being very dangerous. If I was going to call out a dangerous pinch point, I think it would be the bollards you mentioned, or that rutted out single track.
Possible it is a familiarity or subtle cues thing that folks who do that kind of thing frequently know what to expect and look for.
check out the " Driftless 100" in Elkader Iowa. i did the 100k last year they have a 200k for you young guys almost all on gravel with plenty of hills for separation , some sections are loose gravel but the do have beer after
Thanks! I appreciate the "for you young guys" :D.
So what are the gravel races you prefer to ride (and are “safer”?)
I felt like the DB100 team and course was the best communicated, best marked and least dangerous of all that I’ve ridden.
I think gravel is inherently dangerous - but not nearly so as road, crits, MTb. And that’s why (as a middle aged guy) I race it. I think that your fear about it is real - but I also think that you would benefit from some gravel specific training. You had a great result!
I don't think it's fair to characterize calling out safety issues as "fear". As I said in the video, generally the course was very well marked and very well organized, but there were two elements in the course that raise the level of danger to unnecessary levels. The first is that downhill where people crash *every year*. The organizer is aware of this. The guy who won it mentioned it in his video as well. The other is a manufactured hazard at the end. Neither of these elements should be in a race. I don't think it's unreasonable to call that out. I don't think gravel specific training would reduce the risk there. These are dangerous and unnecessary features.
There is risk in everything. Racing has risk. Gravel has risk. Add the two together, you get more than 2x the risk. Everyone who lines up at a race has to accept that, and I do every time I go out *to race*. What I don't want to accept is a level of risk that is artificially elevated. When a significant portion of the front group goes down in a corner, that feels artificially elevated. I wouldn't blame their bike handling skills for what happened. Having ridden that corner, I completely understand why they went down.
Designing the course to break the groups apart reduces risk. It makes for a better race. I talk about this all the time, because it's true. Smaller groups of similar ability is a safer way to race. Especially on gravel. This course wasn't designed that way. Calling that out isn't *fear*, it's just a fact. But, like I said in the video - that's just something to be aware of with this race.
If it was just me, maybe it would be fair to characterize it as a "me" problem. Maybe it would be fair to point out that my bike handling could be better. But, I didn't go down there. I didn't go down on the rest of the course either. I didn't ride the course slow either; probably would have gotten a sub-5 elapsed, on gravel, if my back hadn't blown up. What I did do, is notice that there were an unusual number of people sporting fresh injuries at the finish. I don't think it's unfair, or unreasonable to call that out.
@@Mamilian Fair enough. DB100 isn't for you. What gravel races do you think do this better?
@@mynameiswilson_ At this scale, Gravel Worlds. Smaller races, the Big River Gravel Series. Unfortunately, the organizer of one of my favs (Snaggy Ridge 105) stopped doing it. That would have been on the short list as well.
Racing on gravel in a mass start with 500 people of varying bike handling skills is safer than crits and RR😂
Wow
You just need to stay home
Thanks for the constructive feedback.